Talk:Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by reviewer, closed by Narutolovehinata5 (talk) 14:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the genetic origin of modern Jews is considered important within Zionism, as it seeks to provide a historical basis for the belief that descendants of biblical Jews have "returned"? Source: McGonigle, Ian V. (2021). Genomic Citizenship: The Molecularization of Identity in the Contemporary Middle East. MIT Press (originally a Harvard PhD Thesis, published March 2018). p. 36 (c.f. p.54 of PhD). ISBN 978-0-262-36669-4. Retrieved 2023-07-08. The stakes in the debate over Jewish origins are high, however, since the founding narrative of the Israeli state is based on exilic 'return.' If European Jews have descended from converts, the Zionist project falls prey to the pejorative categorization as 'settler colonialism' pursued under false assumptions, playing into the hands of Israel's critics and fueling the indignation of the displaced and stateless Palestinian people. The politics of 'Jewish genetics' is consequently fierce. But irrespective of philosophical questions of the indexical power or validity of genetic tests for Jewishness, and indeed the historical basis of a Jewish population 'returning' to the Levant, the Realpolitik of Jewishness as a measurable biological category could also impinge on access to basic rights and citizenship within Israel.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Gracie Graves and the Kids from Room 402

Created by Onceinawhile (talk). Self-nominated at 07:35, 9 July 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Zionism, race and genetics; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Article is new enough and long enough. However, it's the subject of a POV flag and there's ongoing debate on the talk page about the article's WP:NPOV. Indeed, the article's (lengthy) lede section largely pulls from 2 journal articles that seem to not represent scholarly consensus to frame the discussion. Hook is interested, but the cited source seems to be one scholar's opinion, rather than a fact. Would suggest waiting to have more editors, especially with more specialized subject matter expertise than I, weigh in on the matter at hand in the article. Longhornsg (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi Longhornsg thanks for your comment. Since you have an interest in the subject of Jewish History (WikiProject), please could you comment on the article talk page and help develop the article there? Your comments above seem intended to cast doubt (“seem to not… seem to be”), which is helpful if you are willing to provide the evidence underpinning your uncertainty. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:43, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Article is a transparent attempt to portray studies on Jewish Genetics as "Zionist" and thereby ideological/untrustworthy, without any source actually describing the studes as such. The article itself is full of Synth and assertions that are not actually in the sources. The article should be deleted, and certainly not featured on a "Did you know". Drsmoo (talk) 13:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: the above editor has been adding various tags to the article. When challenged to explain the above claims he wrote: Allegations of bias and synth in a wikipedia article are not substantiated by scholarly reliable sources, they are an individual judgement. The observation that an article combines disparate ideas to push an original viewpoint is not something that would be sourced.[1] Onceinawhile (talk) 16:07, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

After the allegations of bias were substantiated, the above editor and a supporting editor asked me to provide "sources" to prove that the article was biased/Synth. As if it has been subject to a scholarly peer review and JSTOR had articles about this wiki page. Drsmoo (talk) 16:22, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I archived reference to this nomination on the article's (very crowded) talk page as I assumed the conversation was over but that was reverted as it has not been closed. I oppose the nomination for the moment. The article is very unstable and has been under heavy dispute. Although the contention is starting to quieten, the article is nowhere near consensus-approved enough to feature. There has been a conversation for nearly two months over whether it needs to be renamed, for example. BobFromBrockley (talk) 08:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• The article's neutrality has been in dispute for over a month at this point, and the prior reviewer's assessment still seems largely correct. It reads like an essay on a particular aspect of race science, and issues are still being identified (for example, an editor just today was removing close paraphrasing from sources). The talk page still has active disputes regarding the content and presentation of perspectives. All together, I doubt that this article is "reasonably complete and not some sort of work in progress". Not presentable and given the time spent already, I find it unlikely that it will become presentable in a reasonable time frame for DYK. — Wug·a·po·des 21:51, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Recap

• To recap. This article began as a stub, and was immediately subject to 2 deletion proposals.
• The name was, it was argued, a compound of three terms. No literature covered those three terms together, ergo it was a classic example of WP:Synth.
• Three term titles do exist, i.e. Race and ethnicity in the United States, where the locative ‘in the United States’ has the same function as ‘Zionism’ (the ideological area) in our title. In any case, this argument was demolished: an ample literature exists discussing those three terms conjointly. There was no WP:Synth. Or if any examples could be pointed out, they would be eliminated.
• I stepped in, asked for three weeks to redraft the article. Some 90 sources of excellent quality were read, and harvested rigorously to respect the terms of the title. I.e. they dealt with various aspects of the nexus between the concept of race, and genetics in the history of Zionism. Despite the radical revision, the use of not 15 but 90 sources, and the expansion of text by 100,000kbs, discontent expressing the same original diffidence about the stub has persisted, as if nothing had changed.
• The article thus is written strictly to reflect the title we have. A large amount of matter extraneous to these entwined thematics was ignored for that reason.
• From the beginning of redrafting to the present only two aspects of the article were challenged: (a) the title (b) the lead.
• It is objected that (a) ‘Zionism, race and genetics’ gives the misleading impression that race and genetics are interchangeable, notwithstanding the fact that one is a subjective notion in relative desuetude, the result of a pseudoscience, the other predicated on the ideals of a pure science detached from the ideological biases of the earlier idiom of race. This is to (i) misconstrue the title, and (ii) ignore the witness of contemporary scholarship.
• (ib)If one were to write an article:’Democracy, equality and liberty,’ (this has been a fundamental question of political science at least since the 1950s), no one would infer that such a formulation cross-contaminates equality and liberty, which are distinct values, though conceptually connected. Indeed they exist in dramatic and dynamic tension in all discussions of democracy. Likewise, the juxtaposition of race and genetics in no way presupposes the two terms are either interchangeable, or being confused, with one undermining the scientific cogency of the other.

• (iib)Despite repeated denials on the talk page, the literature on race and genetics unequivocally underlines currents of conceptual continuity between the old language of race, and the newer idiom or methods of genetics. I cited Gilman and Duster. Here are two further examples. The first is just published, a joint work sponsored by the National Institutes of Health and written by experts for Nasem

• ’The misconception that human beings can be naturally divided into biologically distinguishable races has been extremely resilient and has become embedded in scientific research, medical practice and technologies, and formal education. Many elements of racial thinking, including essentialism and biological determinism, have influenced modern thinking around human genetics, to the marginalization of some peoples and the benefit of others . . racist concepts of race that are deeply embedded in science and U.S. society more broadly continue to affect scientific thinking and research, Scientists must critically examine the underlying assumptions about race—and human commonalityand difference—that shape their research studies..’‘Using Population Descriptors in Genetics and Genomics Research: A New Framework for an Evolving Field,’ National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine/. National Academies Press 2023 pp.1,32.

• Most human geneticists are aware of the problems of imprecise or misused language, but face the difficulty that such language is embedded in many of the methods, tools and data we use. Clinical and anthropological datasets, which can be of enormous utility, often use outdated and scientifically incoherent labels to describe the individuals whose data they include . . the social categories and other groupings that individuals belong to are inescapable components of genetics research. However, within the human genetics community, some aspects of the academic language used to describe groups and subsets of people may foster erroneous beliefs beyond academia about human biology and the nature of these categories. Such descriptions frequently invoke concepts of ancestry and population structure, for reasons we will discuss below. But ancestry itself is often a poorly understood concept, and its relationship to genetic data is not straightforward. There are many implicit assumptions involved in inferring ancestry and population structure, and a similar number of pitfalls when interpreting the output of population genetic clustering analyses and algorithms. For example, the structures found in principal components analysis (PCA) of genetic variation depend strongly on the distribution of genetic ancestry included in the dataset, and is necessarily a sample-specific representation of genetic relationships. Similarly,the clusters identified by widely used methods such as STRUCTURE are often assigned ‘ancestry’ labels based on the present-day populations within the analysis in which cluster membership happens to be maximised, rather than any explicit inference of ancestral demography. The collection and sampling of genetic data - which often follows existing cultural, anthropological, geographical or political categories - also has a substantial impact, to the extent that some aspects of the clustering reflect sampling strategies rather thanany inherent genetic structure.’ ,Ewan Birney, Michael Inouye, Jennifer Raff, Adam Rutherford Aylwyn Scally,’ ‘The language of race, ethnicity, and ancestry in human genetic research,’ Biology June 2021.

• The impasse here is that half of the editors on the talk page dislike the title, and attempts have been made to accommodate their desire for a different title. The problem with a different title is that any one alternative will implicitly question virtually the legitimacy of the article as completed, one written with a singular focus on representing the complex aspects of the three terms as covered in very high quality RS, and thus suggesting that it be rewritten comprehensively to reflecf the new title which, unlike the present one, will not reflect or summarize the content we have. As AndytheGrump noted, if that is the purpose, then it should be clearly stated, since a name-change of this kind would constitute by all appearances a kind of AfD by the back door.

Since I've retired and have a lot of work I'm more interested in doing off-line, I hope these points might spur reconsideration of the flat refusal to accept the legitimacy of the original title. Best wishes Nishidani (talk) 16:43, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I think you make a lot of good points, and I'm friendly to the idea that the page has been improved to where it's legitimately a single subject. However, I want to correct one aspect of what you said about why some editors object to the current title. It isn't that it makes it sound like race and genetics are interchangeable. It doesn't make them sound like that, and that isn't a concern. It's that, by pairing them, the title makes it sound like we are saying that "race and genetics" are a "thing" in the way that scientific racism says it, and that's a problem. The fact that you put a lot of work into improving the page, and indeed you did, does not mean that, because you wrote it according to the present title, efforts to come up with a different title will inevitably change the focus and content of the page. And it does not mean that every suggestion of a new title is an underhanded attempt to delete the page. Actually, I think that the seeming intransigence of editors on this talk page to finding any kind of consensus on the page name is a bigger threat to this page continuing to be kept. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:01, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Tryptofish: Re the comment …by pairing them, the title makes it sound like we are saying that "race and genetics" are a "thing", should we infer that you also disagree with the title of the article Race and genetics, or such wording in the various Wikipedia articles which include the words "race and genetics" in their prose? For what it's worth, I looked through the archives of that article, and cannot see anyone actively disputing the title – the closest is this RM discussion from 10 years ago which found no support. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:54, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

No, because that's all WP:OTHERSTUFF. A page about race and genetics can address how those two things have sometimes, as in scientific racism, been treated as a "thing", but how that has also been rebutted. Once we make a triple combination of those two along with Zionism, it sounds like we are attributing a scientific racist position to Zionism. The longer this discussion, and the RM discussion, go on, the more convinced I am that something like Zionist thought on Jewish racial identity is a better title, and in no way would go against the current content of the page. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:19, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the title implies a conjunction in this manner or that people would naturally infer this. Whatever other reasons there might be too change the title, I don't think that this is a particularly strong one. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:35, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Obviously, other editors, and not just me, feel that it is a problem, or there wouldn't have been such a history of deletion proposals and rename discussions. I suspect that, as long as some editors steadfastly oppose any kind of change, the probability increases that there will be a new, and possibly successful, attempt to delete the page. I'm trying to find ways to get consensus to fix things so that this doesn't happen, but I may not be able to get such a consensus. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

some editors steadfastly oppose any kind of change,

Please do not repeat this refrain. Two editors made enormous changes to this article, working for a month for several hours a day, mastering the sources to effect improvements (changes) while extensive and inconclusive arguments on the talk page simply about three words in the title have continued with no semblance of consensus, even among those who propose a change. The support votes, representing just half of the votes above, all admit that one proposed title is not quite satisfactory. it is also not helpful to suggest that unless your advice is taken, a third AfD might succeed. That is not the language of serene and objective deliberation. I)nflexibility in insisting on any change to a mere title, while describing as 'inflexibility' the substantial work invested in transforming this stub into a fully-fledged description of a phase in Zionist thought that has received significant coverage in recent academic sources which to date, have been ignored on wikipedia is, to put it kindly, somewhat curious.Nishidani (talk) 23:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I guess I should have said it was opposition to any kind of change to the changes that they, themselves, have made – although, actually, I definitely wasn't referring specifically to the two editors you have in mind. I'm referring just as much to some editors who constantly disagree with those two editors. I'm not threatening that unless my advice is taken, bad things will happen. But I'm giving advice in good faith, trying to avoid some very possible bad results. That's not a threat, just trying to be constructive. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have no idea about who these other 'two editors' might be. I was referring to the primary drafters, Onceinawhile and myself, and I therefore haven't a clue who 'some editors who constantly disagree with' myself and Onceinawhile may be. Nishidani (talk) 23:58, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

The "two editors" are the ones you referred to above: "Two editors made enormous changes to this article, working for a month for several hours a day, mastering the sources...". You said "two editors", so I said "two editors" for the same two. And yes, they are you and Onceinawhile, because it was the two of you who did the very large majority of the writing of the page. As for editors who have disagreed with you, I'm sure that you can look over this talk page and find numerous places where you reply to another editor who disagreed with you.

But that's all just noise. What really matters is the need for editors to find WP:CONSENSUS. I'll say this to anyone who reads my comment, and not specifically to you, but a lot of editors in this talk have a single preferred way to treat any given issue, such as the page title, for example, and regard any other way as unacceptable. Some editors want the current title, and nothing else is acceptable to them. Some editors want a title that includes "origins", and don't want to consider any alternative. Some editors consider "origins" absolutely unacceptable, and won't budge on that. A huge number of possible page titles have been suggested in talk, and every single one of them has one or more editors who regard it as absolutely unacceptable – but their preferred title is similarly opposed by some other editors. When I supported the rename proposal that is in process here, I said that I was supporting it despite having some qualms about it, because I wanted to find consensus and I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of some improvement. I'm glad that some editors agreed with that. But we have some editors here who have their own, personal, views of "the perfect", and for them, that's that. But their views of "the perfect" are different than those of other editors who similarly want that perfect, and that's that. That's not how Wikipedia works. We're supposed to be willing to compromise, to accept something that's not our first choice, but something that isn't awful and can get support from enough other editors to reach consensus. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The article was 99% written by two editors in terms of the title we have, which dictated the content. The two editors are experienced GA/FA quality content specialists. When objections were raised as to the title, they were duly answered. The strange assumption appears to be that the two who wrote the article didn't have a clue as to the nature of the content they were writing up. As far as I can recall, every objection raised to the present title was thoroughly answered. Of course talk page editors can express preference for another title. But at this point, they should also explain why, after such exhaustive replies to the objections regarding the title we have, it still remains in their view inadequate to the article's content. This is particularly important because half of the editors here have not objected to the title as it exists. title change requires cogent reasons which are what consensus is essentially about. If you can list anything I've missed, by all means . . . Nishidani (talk) 23:21, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure from the indenting who you are replying to ("If you can list..."), but I'll assume it's me. "When objections were raised as to the title, they were duly answered". But were there editors who were dissatisfied with those due answers? "But at this point, they should also explain why...". Is it true that editors have not explained why? Maybe not explained in a manner that you agree with, but that doesn't mean that they didn't explain. "The strange assumption appears to be that the two who wrote the article don't have a clue as to the nature of the content that they were writing up." I don't think that, and I've repeatedly said positive things about what you and Onceinawhile have done. And I doubt that other editors think that. But there also shouldn't be an assumption that the two who wrote the article are entitled to say what should or should not be done with the page, and that all other editors should defer to them, because the other editors don't know enough about the subject. That's not how Wikipedia works. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:40, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I make no such assumption of ownership. Indeed I have seen quite a few changes to the article I think poorly considered, but reverted nothing. The point is, many arguments for a title change were made months ago while the article underwent radical revision. We have a different textual reality now. Since there is no consensus even among editors desiring a title change, the only sensible way forward is for them is to switch from the exhaustingly inconclusive listing of different possible titles, towards a listing of what outstanding objections remain to the title as it now stands. That is a practical way forward from the impasse you worry about.Nishidani (talk) 23:47, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

"I make no such assumption of ownership." But also "Two editors made enormous changes to this article, working for a month for several hours a day, mastering the sources to effect improvements (changes) while extensive and inconclusive arguments on the talk page simply about three words in the title have continued with no semblance of consensus, even among those who propose a change." And "The two editors are experienced GA/FA quality content specialists." And to repeat: "When objections were raised as to the title, they were duly answered". But were there editors who were dissatisfied with those due answers? "But at this point, they should also explain why...". Is it true that editors have not explained why? Maybe not explained in a manner that you agree with, but that doesn't mean that they didn't explain. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

I am quite capable of understanding my own prose, no need to make a florilegium. The ruling assumption from the AfD onwards is that there is something intrinsically unacceptable about a title containing three terms. As far as I have managed to grasp in reading threads, conjoining 'Zionism' and 'race'/'race and genetics'/genetics and Zionism, is problematical in some obscure way. Yet the three are analysed together in over 30 high quality academic sources. Nishidani (talk) 08:51, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

I certainly would expect that you would understand what you, yourself, have said. Thank you for introducing me to a new word: florilegium. Of course, I wasn't seeking to create a florilegium, but rather to point out flaws in what you have been saying. But now that you have said that you understand what you have said, I suppose that you understand those flaws, even if you are evading an admission of them. If, in contrast, you don't understand why some editors say that conjoining Zionism, race, and genetics in the pagename is a problem, it's that "race and genetics" is a hot-button term, one that implies that there is a genetic difference between races, which is an offensive product of scientific racism, and something that we should best avoid saying in Wikipedia's voice. Of course, all three things are discussed together in 30 plus high quality academic sources, and of course it's reasonable to cover all three on this page. But it's untrue to claim that there is simply no other way to word the page title that would be consistent with those 30 plus sources, and with the content of the page as currently written.

In any case, I regret that I have gotten side-tracked from what I really wanted to say here, by getting into this back-and-forth. I should know better. I started off by saying that I agreed with a lot of the "recap", but I just wanted to correct the statement that editors were concerned that readers would think we were saying that race and genetics were the same thing. My main point after that was, and remains, that I urge editors – all editors and not just one person – to be willing to compromise and be flexible, in order to reach consensus. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Could you again desist from personalizing this, and making extraordinary inferences about what I supposedly think. When you write:

I wasn't seeking to create a florilegium, but rather to point out flaws in what you have been saying. But now that you have said that you understand what you have said, I suppose that you understand those flaws, even if you are evading an admission of them.

This is another example of the recent tendency to make offensive insinuations in my regard. I generally ignore them as fishing expeditions, but they are now repetitive. Here, you claim that you pointed out flaws, I recognize them, and refuse to come clean about them. That is a blatant WP:NPA/WP:AGF violation, the second from you alone in the last two days.

This is quite an absurd reading of the thread above, and is snarkily provocative. It doesn’t merit a reply, because correcting your misprisions on what I wrote would only lead to a pointless resuscitation of the conversational mode that is so disruptive here.

To @Selfstudier, about his last remark. Several editors (Onceinawhile, Nishidani, Iskander, Nableezy, Zero, Levivich) see nothing problematical in the title, which simply lists the three themes interlinked in current scholarship as a unified topic. I appreciate the fact that you, like Levivich, exercise an autonomy of judgment that refuses to be drawn into those 'sides' which, unfortunately, all too often, are imputed to exist and to determine voting patterns. Still, attempts here to finger me as some lone hold-out are wholly misdirected.

Several editors, yourself included, prefer an exegetic title, one that explains the content, like Designation of workers by collar color. Attempts to find an acceptable alternative falter on a lack of internal consensus among the latter as to a title that they all consider adequate to the very complex array of issues covered by the article.

When two and a half months of intense talk page discussion fails, the only resolutive procedure would be to do what is done in science, logic and chronic conflict studies: return to first principles and examine the assumptions that undergird different perspectives. Many ‘problems’ arise simply because, to quote Auden, people engage in ‘baiting with the wrong request/ the vectors of their interest’. Some should ask themselves, rather than puzzle over this Nishidani oddball, why several other editors of good standing, like him, cannot see the problem others assert exists. Why is it that they cannot see any of the putative troubling implications in the mere listing of three elements as a title, a listing that is commonplace in scores and scores of academic books whose thematizing titles list three intertwined topics unproblematically.

• Mary M. Burke, Race, Politics, and Irish America, Oxford University Press 2020 ISBN 978-0-192-85973-0
• Les Back, John Solomos,Race, Politics and Social Change, Routledge ISBN 978-0-415-08578-6 1992
• Henry A. Giroux, Race, Politics, and Pandemic Pedagogy, Bloomsbury Publishing ISBN 978-1-350-18444-2 2021
• James Jennings (ed), Race, Politics, and Economic Development, Verso Books ISBN 978-0-860-91589-8 1992
• Jean Ait Belkhir and Bernice McNair Barnett, Race, Gender and Class Intersectionality, in Race, Gender & Class, 2001 Vol. 8, No. 3, pp. 157-174
• Joshua Bartholomew,Race, Economics, and the Future of Blackness, in Critical Black Futures 2021 pp 181–205
• James Boettcher, Race, ideology, and Ideal theory, in Metaphilosophy Vol. 40, No. 2 (April 2009), pp. 237-259
• Alejandro de la Fuente, Race, Ideology, and Culture in Cuba, 2000
• R. E. Nisbett, 'Race, genetics, and IQ,' In C. Jencks & M. Phillips (Eds.), The Black–White test score gap, Brookings Institution Press. (1998 pp. 86–102
• L. N. Borrell et al., • Race and Genetic Ancestry in Medicine,' The New England Journal of Medicine 2021; 384: pp 474-480 (That would yield, analogically ‘Race and Genetic ancestry in Zionism’ as a legitimate alternative title for example. But no one has suggested this obvious compromise. I wonder why?
• Lourdes Beneria, Günseli Berik, Maria Floro,Gender, Development and Globalization, 2015
• Gary Goertz, Amy Mazur Politics, Gender, and Concepts, 2008
• Margaret Brabant, Politics, Gender, And Genre, 2019
• Ronald L. Dotterer, Susan Bowers Politics, Gender, and the Arts, 1992

All objections to this title ignore English grammar and idiom, the irrefutable evidence of google books that such tripartite listings are normative. So, if some wish to continue to assert there is something wrong, they should give an adequate and cogent set of reasons why standard English usage and book titles may not apply to the present article. Why find a problem when the documented evidence that the article title is normative in English can be multiplied by thousands of similar examples, instantly, by googling?Nishidani (talk) 12:02, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Well, that reply is full of black-and-white, absolute, statements of things that are actually much more nuanced than what you say. Editors who see the pagename differently than you do "ignore English grammar and idiom" – which is extremely personalizing and simply untrue. The evidence is "irrefutable" – well that's like telling everyone who disagrees with you that we are ignoring overwhelming evidence and should shut up. And yet – you present a list of 14 sources above, and although they all use multi-term language, 12 of the 14 do not say "race and genetics". Only 2 of them do. One, by Nisbett [2], makes the case that "the most relevant studies provide no evidence for the genetic superiority of either race". The other, by Borrell et al. [3], is the single one out of the 14 that addresses "race and genetics" as a significant subject, but in the context of health care delivery, of making sure that specific genetic factors can be used to provide the best personal healthcare – not at all in the context of defining membership in a nation state. A Google Scholar search on "Zionist thought on Jewish racial identity", [4], shows that this combination of words is also used in various forms in thousands of sources, and a lot of those sources look like those that are used for this page. Oh, but it's "irrefutable", so I should know my place and be quiet. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:41, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

I asked Selfstudier to explain why titles of the type:X,Y and Z, standard in English usage, and endemic in books and articles, are not acceptable to a wikipedia article which fits the formula, i.e. 'Zionism, race and genetics'. If you are not interested in addressing the question directly and analytically, you are under no obligation to talk past it. Nishidani (talk) 19:49, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

That's good, because I didn't talk around it. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:53, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

A Google Scholar search on "Zionist thought on Jewish racial identity", [5], shows that this combination of words is also used in various forms in thousands of sources(Tryptofish)

Compare the correct result, i.e. one bracketing the words with inverted commas which yields zero correspondancesNishidani (talk) 21:14, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Self? Nishidani (talk) 19:56, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Just noting that you originally said "no obligation to talk around it", but then changed it to "past it" after I had replied.

Here's a similar "correct" Google Scholar search for "Zionism, race and genetics": [6], which gets 0 results. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Which is totally irrelevant because the title is not vauntedly drawn from google books evidence. It simply alerts the reader to the topic of the page using the three terms that contemporary scholarship deals with conjointly as linked themes, scholarship which has been used to write the article we have.Nishidani (talk) 07:23, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

This discussion keeps getting so, well, toxic, that I really should repeat something I said earlier in this section: In any case, I regret that I have gotten side-tracked from what I really wanted to say here, by getting into this back-and-forth. I should know better. I started off by saying that I agreed with a lot of the "recap", but I just wanted to correct the statement that editors were concerned that readers would think we were saying that race and genetics were the same thing. My main point after that was, and remains, that I urge editors – all editors and not just one person – to be willing to compromise and be flexible, in order to reach consensus. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

There are two proposals asking for consensus (a)That the title be changed because it is full of skewed implications and (b) the title is quite normal, one in conformity with widespread usage. (a) has dominated the talk page (b) has been totally ignored. As soon as I tried to break the impasse by asking the editors supporting (a) to give rational reasons for their dismissal of the present topic title, my request was ignored. To be thorough, I still think the assumption or premise for challenging what is a fact, that X,Y and Z is a normative title format in academic studies and books, be answered. There is nothing 'toxic' about being thorough, and insisting on logic and evidence.Nishidani (talk) 07:23, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

From my perspective, I and other editors actually have given rational reasons for objections, not dismissals, but objections, and those rational reasons are being ignored, and to me that feels toxic. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:30, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

:I would do an RFC perhaps to get a sense of what wiki in general thinks of the title. I don’t think this current group of editors is going to come to a consensus unfortunately. Drsmoo (talk) 23:59, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

For example, I am in agreement with selfstudier re both race/genetics or neither, while you have the opposite opinion. It would be good to solicit outside feedback to see how others interpret the scope of the article and what the right title, if anything, should be. Drsmoo (talk) 00:01, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I asked Selfstudier to explain why titles of the type:X,Y and Z, standard in English usage, and endemic in books and articles, are not acceptable to a wikipedia article which fits the formula, Is this the latest distraction? You keep talking about everything except what I am talking about. Let me be clearer, all your objections/answers to the current proposition just seem to lend credence to the coatrack argument put forth elsewhere. I didn't have a problem with the title originally and I still don't but I also don't have a problem with the current proposition and yet you do and it is your explanations in that regard that are giving me pause with regard to the original title. Selfstudier (talk) 11:14, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

No great rewrite is needed, it's principally the same sources that are in the article right now, Falk, McGonigle, Baker, Hirsh, etc, it's only necessary to add some material that is present in these sources. Selfstudier (talk) 18:42, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, in my humble opinion, even "Zionism and the politics of race" is a much better title than the current one. Andre🚐 15:00, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

There was a lot of discussion about this (and some about the variant that only mentions genetics) and in the end I concluded that it is either both or neither. Selfstudier (talk) 17:06, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

When you say, of race and genetics, that it is either both or neither, is that an absolute line in the sand for you, or something you would be willing to compromise on for the sake of consensus? Obviously, I'm hoping for the latter. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:51, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

In principle, I would oppose a title that only included one element, sorry about that. As you have seen, I am not averse to dispensing with both in favor of some other formulation. Selfstudier (talk) 08:20, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

The problem remains that the people proposing new titles are seeking titles they find less objectionable, regardless of whether that title actually covers the same topic as this article. You cannot propose a substantially new scope of an article under the guise of a rename. If the scope of the article is not notable then try AFD again. If it is then the title needs to accurately encompass that scope, and the proposals above do not do that. nableezy - 12:26, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I just wanted to note that I don't totally sign up to this recap's representation of what happened. Specifically: From the beginning of redrafting to the present only two aspects of the article were challenged: (a) the title (b) the lead. No, I gave a long list of issues I had with the article above. Some were addressed wholly or partially; others remain. I haven't pushed them, because participation on this talk page has been exhausting. Once again, in summary, my concern all along has been that the conjunction in the title creates a "thing" where there is no "thing", and that this has led to a skewed/non-NPOV article. Being the title of one or two books or articles doesn't make something a "thing" in my view. (We don't have an article for Race, Economics, and the Future of Blackness for example.) Clearly, there is a rich literature on Zionist perspectives on race - on how race science and racial antisemitism contributed to a raciological strain within Zionism, that was shared by some non-Zionist Jewish race scholars and contested by others. This literature focuses overwhelmingly on the period of the formation of classical Zionism to the rise of the Nazis. The current article (thanks mainly to Nishidani) does a great job in setting that out (although obviously with some room for improvement still, in ways I suggested above). There is also a literature on post-war Israeli genetic science that might be briefly described in an aftermath section of an article along the lines I've just described, and which might be discussed too in Genetic studies on Jews and more briefly in other related articles (e.g. Who is a Jew?/Jewish identity). But the unhappy conjunction in the title (without assuming any deliberate intent from editors) pushed the article to sources that are more marginal in a truly encyclopedic article on whatever our article is about, which focused the article on the mysterious interconnection between the three title terms, giving the continuity between Zionist race science and Israeli genetic science enormous undue attention. Although not particularly keen on any one alternative title proposed, my instinct at the moment is that a new title would enable us to keep the best of the article, removing the skew. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:10, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

My apologies for missing what you point out in the recap. As you say, this has been exhausting. Unless mistaken the gravamen of your worries is that

that the conjunction in the title creates a "thing" where there is no "thing",

Conjunctions between terms don't create a "thing": they isolate a thematically plural topic which exists to the degree that reliable sources treat them as an interrelated set of terms. There is nothing 'mysterious' about the relationship. Indeed, as several quotes I have supplied over the last week show, geneticists themselves are now analysing the assumptions of 'race' that both historians of science and cultural or social anthropologists found problematical in the way genetics came to be used, and indeed, its methodologies formed, in the last few decades. This is a pretty exciting field, and my impression is that much more will emerge in the near future (may be wrong). As to the last part, a large part of Israeli genetic science is (like Zionist policy) purely practical: how to address, analyse and cure Israeli citizens who suffer from genetically-related illnesses- People in those labs are not thinking 'Zionistically'. They are scientists pure et simple. But at the same time, the overlap between broader historical genetics and Zionist ideological concerns is patently there - Israel historians document it, and just as, say, American geneticists are now going public by talking among themselves of this historical residue of race assumptions in their technical work, their Israeli colleagues are doing the same. Whatever, the genealogy of ideas is of intrinsic merit. They didn't want any mention of this in Genetic Studies of Jews so it was only natural to create a distinct page where justice could be done to the issues. Nishidani (talk) 16:32, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I should not have used the word "mysterious" for the "intertwining" of the three topics; that wasn't justified. I'll strike that out.

Meanwhile, this hit me: They didn't want any mention of this in Genetic Studies of Jews so it was only natural to create a distinct page where justice could be done to the issues.

In other words, it seems, this entire article (and talk page) was the result of content forking when consensus went against inclusion of the content desired by a minority of editors at another article? On this issue, my view is the same as that in the short essay WP:Should I fork? BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:57, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I should have said that an attempt to mention this article, more or less a stub under development, on that other page was immediately cancelled. That article was, if I remember correctly, on the 'science'. It is nothing of the sort of course. That rejection and the irrationality of the AfD, with its sheer denialism of the weight of sources, spurred the effort to fill out the promise in the stub. No. It's not an essay, unless all wikipedia articles that trace the history of an idea (Democracy) are essays. It's not a fork. It's the sort of thing one has been reading about for over a decade and noting, but with no prompting occasion to actually do this rather than some other article (at least speaking for myself) Nishidani (talk) 17:18, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Is "in" the magic word?

I have been looking at other "tripartite title" articles, of which a surprisingly large number include race. For example:

• Race and ethnicity in Colombia
• Race and ethnicity in Brazil
• Race and ethnicity in Latin America
• Race and ethnicity in the NBA
• Race and ethnicity in the NHL
• Race and ethnicity in censuses
• History of the race and intelligence controversy
• Race and capital punishment in the United States
• Race in the United States criminal justice system
• Race and health in the United States
• Race and crime in the United Kingdom
• Race and maternal health in the United States
• Sociology of race and ethnic relations

This is a wide base. The logical conclusion for our article would be Race and genetics in Zionism. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that as well. Selfstudier (talk) 16:26, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I'd have no objection either. I suggested that six weeks ago (The article is about race in Zionism and its subsequent inflection in genetics, and actually thought of precisely this formula at the time, but was more interested in writing the article than engaging in talk page discussions). No one took it up. I alluded to a solution like that a few other times, most recently yesterday with a variant that had of course one word too many, above ('the obvious compromise'). I still prefer the title we have for stylistic reasons. But it's tweedledum or tweedledee conceptually.Nishidani (talk) 20:37, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

You know, you might have hit on something here. I'm going to have to give some thought to this before I can put my finger on why I have a favorable reaction to it, but somehow, it doesn't strike me as being a problem in the way that the current title is. I think it has something to do with the way it treats race and genetics as not being "all of race and genetics", but rather, as only being those aspects of race and those aspects of genetics that have come up in the context of Zionism, because they are the aspects that are "in" Zionism. Thanks for suggesting it. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:03, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree it's a step in the right direction. I also think "Race and ethnicity" is an improvement over "Race and genetics." Even "race and biology" might be better. Andre🚐 22:05, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I'd prefer keeping it with "genetics", rather than "ethnicity" or "biology", because I think it stays closer to the page scope. But I'll go along with alternatives like that, as a way to get consensus, if that's the way the discussion goes.

I've though about this some more, and I can add a bit to what I said above, about how I think this is not as much of a problem as the current title. If one thinks of a diagram, with one circle representing Zionism, one representing race, and one representing genetics, and the three circles overlap in part, but not entirely, I think most editors here would agree that this page is about the part where all three circles overlap, and not about any part of the diagram where all three are not overlapping. The existing title sort of implies that, and has been intended that way, but can also be construed as the sum of all three circles, not the intersection. "Zionism, race and genetics" can be reasonably misconstrued as being about Zionism+race+genetics, which is clearly wrong from the perspective of the page we are trying to create. Until Onceinawhile proposed this new idea, I hadn't really been able to put my finger on that. In contrast, "Race and genetics in Zionism" is clearer, without losing anything: it's the subset of "race and genetics" that intersects with Zionism, because it's what's "in" Zionism. That way, the pagename doesn't give me the feeling that the page is trying to impose scientific racism upon Zionism. Scientific racism sits outside of the triple intersection. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:08, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Grammatically there is no way one can derive from three substantives 'Zionism, race and genetics' the idea that racism, scientific or not, is being imposed on Zionism. That is pure imagination, not grammar.Nishidani (talk) 23:19, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

You know what, I actually agree with that. It's not a matter of grammar, but rather, a matter of human subjectivity. But the public that we write for is human, with all the complexities of human nature. And it's appropriate to write for our audience, in a way that respects their intelligence while also not overlooking the fact that they are real people, not automatons (yeah, I know that ChatGPT and the like are mining us). --Tryptofish (talk) 23:51, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I understand that, but we are part of that very same public. I have always been unhappy with the pseudo-objectivism of that nutter, Ayn Rand, whose scribblings apparently influenced some of the principles of wikipedia. But working here for decades nonetheless tells me that the mini-culture of objectivism curated to elide editorial subjectivism, which includes second-guessing things, say, among ourselves, the psychological profiles we might imagine, of each other and, by extension, the readership, has its functional merits. In sum, we must suspend from our judgment on how a text is to be written all the pressures of the personal, and look exclusively at the authority of relevant sources of high quality (which often I might personally disagree with or be tempted to challenge), construe them with precision by the sharp exercise of grammatical discipline, and get, source by source, the content over. Thanks for prompting this reflection. It is a fundamental consideration.Nishidani (talk) 06:42, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Is there a policy or guideline that advises setting aside what you call "the pressures of the personal"? (I don't mean WP:NOR or WP:NPOV.) My understanding of policies and guidelines is that it is appropriate to consider what readers will think, and my reading of WP:TITLE is that, although page titles must reflect sources, the titles should also be understandable to real people, and not misleading. (In this case, I, as a member of that same public, had that reaction about scientific racism, and I don't consider myself to be unreasonable, so I haven't been attributing this reaction to some imagined other. I'm figuring that if I had that reaction, then other readers will, too.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:18, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't write or edit plying the worrybeads about what people might think, or get agitated that if I write this or that it may affect some political or ethnic constituency. That opens the door to infinite subjective speculations that derail the simple and yet very complex task of reading precisely what the best scholarship says, on this or that, and construing it correctly. When I wrote "affirm" I found out some very intelligent editors believed it meant something that is alien to what the English Oxford Dictionary says it means, and all sorts of confusions, even a suspension, arose from their misprision. After a huge waste of time, it was recognized that "affirm" meant what the dictionary states, not what people thought it might imply. Too many talk pages are vexed by the paralysis Shakespeare identified in such intensive overthinking, that nothing can ever be decided, in the brilliant passage on 'thinking too precisely on the event'

Rightly to be great

Is not to stir without great argument,

But greatly to find quarrel in a straw

When honor's at the stake.

What we as editors think is of little or no account. All that counts is getting what scholars write correctly paraphrased. Anything that strays from this detracts from article composition.Nishidani (talk) 08:27, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

You and the Danish Prince both have the right to see things that way, but other editors have the right to edit as we see fits Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

A lame insult. I co-wrote the Shakespeare Authorship Question to FA standard, meaning I wrote it not as I saw fitting wiki policies and guidelines, but according to the criteria wikipedia's experts on FA writing asked be rigorously applied. Drop it.Nishidani (talk) 21:36, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

No insult intended, and my apologies if it came across that way. I'm just saying that I regard your approach as something that you are entitled to, but that it is not binding on other editors. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:42, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Since loose construal is endemic here, let me construe your prior remark. I, like Hamlet, have a right to see things in a certain way. Other editors have a right to edit according to ' Wikipedia's policies and guidelines'. The two by juxtaposed contrast ('but') are mutually exclusive, meaning I do not edit, in your view, according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. This, ironically, in the face of evidence that FA reviewers endorsed my rigorous adherence to policy guidelines. You just happen to think I, unlike yourself, don't follow wiki guidelines and those experts who have judged my work as perfectly policy-compliant, one is left to suppose, are apparently misguided. Drop it.Nishidani (talk) 23:15, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I asked "Is there a policy or guideline that advises setting aside what you call "the pressures of the personal"?" You never provided one. Sigh. Now, I'm dropping it. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Is there a policy or guideline that advises setting aside what you call "the pressures of the personal"? (I don't mean WP:NOR or WP:NPOV.)

Courtesy required that one not answer a question which explicitly excluded the obvious answer to it. Sigh indeed. I'ìll now join you in dropping this.Nishidani (talk) 07:08, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

This title has the advantage of concision and consistency, and more naturalness than other proposed alternatives. It's probably precise enough. It only really suffers in terms of recognisability, and doesn't fully address the skewing effect I noted in my comment in the "Recap" section above, but that can maybe be addressed in editing once we finally agree a stable title. Overall, I don't object to this change. BobFromBrockley (talk) 08:05, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

You argued there was a skewing effect caused by treating three elements as a 'thing'. I think I answered that. When numerous sources treat the three together, it is not editors here who create such a a thing, but the literature itself. And I might add, 'race' is not something that died off in Zionism with the defeat Nazism,. as you appear to suggest in pursuing the idea of ridding the latter part of 'skewed' material. It persisted, and persists to this day, as we all know. Ethiopian Jews resent being labelled as Cushi, and even within their own ranks, there is a strong race division between 'whites' and 'blacks', etc.etc.etc. Nishidani (talk) 17:33, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I concur with Bob's post in the "recap" section above. Nishidani, I fear you may be perhaps conflating the existence of racism or the continued issue with racial discrimination being in the world at large and in Israel or in other Jewish spaces, with that somehow being germane to a Zionist view as a matter of generalizable or mainstream adherence. I agree with Bob that this article skews toward covering the early 20th century, and skews toward a specific strain of Zionist thought. Whereas plenty of things have happened in the world, such as the aforementioned airlift of the Ethiopian Jews. There is also quite a bit to talk about as pertaining to contemporary Arab-Israeli politics, and the racial politics of contemporary Israel and Palestine. For example, there are quite a few contemporary Israeli politicians who have a pretty blatant right-wing dog whistle. I continue to think the title manages to be both vague and over-broad. There's also quite a bit of weight on the thinking of El Haj, someone with specific views of genetic anthropology and biological determinism. I agree with concerns that this is a POV fork. Andre🚐 23:44, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

This article is not about racism per se, and barely even touches on racial ideas outside of science, i.e. in the sense of engendered prejudice towards any specific group, except with respect to antisemitism. So what is all this off-topic chatter with regards to airlifts and whatnot about? ... and how is this supposed to meaningfully relate to the subject here? Iskandar323 (talk) 02:56, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

You think it's OK to have the portion about the Ethiopian Jews talking about how they were referred to as an offensive epithet and excluded, but not mention that they later were accepted and came in? Andre🚐 03:13, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

A public policy on immigration has no bearing on thematic undercurrents either within society or an ideology. You are conflating a state with the actual subject here. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:02, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Really now, so your position is that the views of the Zionist movement and ideology have no bearing on the activities of the Israeli government? Andre🚐 04:08, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the ideology has bearing there, but that does not mean you can deduce or assume things about the ideology based on the actions of an ideologically involved government. Still, what I'm more confused with here is the overall tangential segue. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:49, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The Jewish Agency for Israel, which is the operative branch of/a parallel organization to the World Zionist Organization, was heavily involved. Drsmoo (talk) 08:48, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Andrevan. We must avoid the temptation to chat. I made an allusion to the Ethiopian case to illustrate a point (it arose because I accommodated your request that we mention Operations Solomon and Moses). That doesn't mean the page focus must now swerve into major expansions on Ethiopians in Israel, or racism in Israel or every other country in the world.Nishidani (talk) 08:27, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I just posted a similar suggestion in a previous section before (consciously) noticing this section. I agree with it though I don't like "in Zionism" much as it makes Zionism sound like a place or organisation as in all of the other examples. I'd prefer "in Zionist ideology", for example. Zero^talk 08:09, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

As Andrevan has pointed out, there is an issue with "race and genetics" which is obviated by the alternatives they suggest, or with just "Race in Zionism". None of the examples provided by Onceinawhile have "race and genetics" and I have argued and Levivich agreed[7] that the phrasing "race and genetics" should be avoided in article titles because of the conflation of race (a social construct) with genetics. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:22, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Zionism, race and genetics, vs other topics

Hi @Sirfurboy: I'm not sure I fully understand your last sentence. Per the illustration on the right (from an earlier discussion), the connection between race and genetics – far from being avoided – is standard from a sociological perspective, so should not be avoided in Wikipedia articles on sociology topics. This article covers a sociology topic, just as the article race and genetics does. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:35, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm OK with "in Zionism", but I'll also go along with "in Zionist ideology" or "in Zionist thinking" if that gets consensus. As I said above, I don't have a problem with "race and genetics" in this configuration. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:33, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Seconding Tryptofish, I think we now have a decent and commendable promise of putting an end to over two months of argument we must all find exhausting. There's been convergence to the formula 'Race and genetics in Zionism/Zionist ideology', a meeting point for editors who otherwise saw the other options from opposing perspectives. Might we not seize the chance to conclude it by agreeing on how to tweak this? (I might add, I am still strongly in favour of the title as it stands, but am happy to drop that if this last formula is adopted).Nishidani (talk) 17:03, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm in favor. Andre🚐 17:42, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

It sounds to me like a requested move for this version has a very good chance of getting consensus, and I think that it would be good if we could move ahead with it. However, we already have an active RM discussion. But that one looks to me to be stalled, and looks unlikely to get consensus. @Selfstudier: as the editor who started that RM, would you be willing to close it, in order that this new one can proceed? --Tryptofish (talk) 21:39, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Given this is Wikipedia I have BOLDly moved it to "Race and genetics in Zionist ideology" and if nobody reverts or is objecting to this, we can close the RM. Andre🚐 21:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I oppose the title and the bold move. It should be an RM to get outside opinions. This title makes it sound like race and genetics are one thing (no comma between them), and that race and genetics is an important aspect of Zionist ideology, and that there is one Zionist ideology. Imagine: "race and genetics in Christian ideology" or "race and genetics in nationalist ideology" or "race and genetics in communist ideology," etc. "In" is a preposition best used for location or an organization. All of the other "in" titles have "in" followed by a country or organization. Zionism and Zionist ideology are neither. Levivich (talk) 15:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

There was already an active RM above that failed to achieve consensus, which Selfstudier closed per Tryptofish; this proposal seemed to be coming to a good compromise consensus in this thread, but you may certainly open a new RM to solicit a new discussion, though perhaps it would be good to get some kind of alignment on what the proposed new title would be if you have one in mind. Andre🚐 16:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

That's what you should do: open an RM to propose a move rather than boldly moving to a new title. If you don't want to self revert, I can do it for you. Levivich (talk) 17:01, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I have complicated feelings about this, and my highest priority is to minimize drama. Strictly speaking, what I posted above was "It sounds to me like a requested move for this version has a very good chance of getting consensus, and I think that it would be good if we could move ahead with it", and I was asking that the older RM be closed, so that we could have a new RM. I didn't anticipate that, instead of a new RM, we would have a bold edit. I'm also not sure that we have consensus for "in Zionist ideology" versus "in Zionism". On the other hand, it is incredibly difficult to get consensus for anything on this page, and I'm very, very, loathe to undo the recent name change, unless there is a stronger case than I am currently seeing for doing so. It's pretty impressive, under the circumstances, how many editors have supported the name change, and if the few who oppose it are such a small minority that the consensus would end up being the same (or would just descend into a morass), I'd rather just leave things as they are. Only if there are enough editors opposing the new pagename that the consensus would likely change, would I now support a new RM. And, given 1RR, let's not have any reverting. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:54, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Andre, you wrote if nobody reverts or is objecting to this, and somebody is now objecting. Kindly self-revert and open a new RM. You know that is what needs to be done. Our move procedure allows for bold moves if and only if they are uncontroversial, and once somebody, anybody, objects it is no longer uncontroversial. nableezy - 19:10, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I should take this page off my watchlist. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:17, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

that seems like a personal choice not related to the article, which is what comments on this talk page are meant for. nableezy - 19:42, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

No, it was a personal comment about your comment. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:45, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I understand there is an objection, however, while I would say my BOLD move lacks the consensus of a formal closed RM even though a consenus was forming, as a point of technical limitation, I cannot actually revert myself as I lack the page mover permission to move over a redirect. Also, I didn't say "if anyone asks, I'll self-revert," and I'm going to say that someone else should revert it if they feel so inclined, so it doesn't count against my 1RR in the topic area. You can certainly say my BOLD move was BOLD and the revert is proper if someone objects to it, and then a new RM can be opened, but I am not going to open it myself because I do not know what the new RM proposal should be if this one is not amenable. I would also perhaps ask that if 1 or 2 editors don't like this title they still let it stand rather than forcing an RM that will possibly likely lead to this outcome anyway. Andre🚐 19:56, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Let me add that anyone who seriously objects in favor of a different pagename, and thinks that their preferred pagename can get consensus, should feel free to open a new RM. But don't revert. Just open a discussion. Anyone who cannot in good faith be confident that their preferred pagename will be supported by other editors, enough other editors to get consensus, please don't waste everyone's time. And anyone whose only objection is procedural, please find something else to do. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:21, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Im sorry, but you simply do not get to decide what the status quo should be for a new request. And you likewise dont get to insist that others not ask people to abide by the correct procedure. I mean you can do it, Im not going to stop you, but Im also not going to pretend like you decide these things. Make a new move request yourself if you please. nableezy - 21:49, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Of course I don't get to decide those things, and I wasn't. But neither do you. And you don't even seem to have an idea for what the pagename should be, just a rigid idea of what The Rules^TM are. As a result, we are going to have another couple of weeks of discussion over something that probably won't result in anything being improved. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:59, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I think the current name is vastly superior to the proposed, either in Zionism or in Zionist ideology. But my understanding of The Rules is based on those rules, which say: The discussion process is used for potentially controversial moves. A move is potentially controversial if either of the following applies: ... someone could reasonably disagree with the move. Somebody could not just disagree with move, somebody did disagree with it. And that means the status quo ante is returned until there is a consensus to move away from it to a new title. You are free to propose whatever you like. Or not. Doesnt really matter to me tbh. nableezy - 22:06, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

As for "vastly superior", you do know, don't you, that most editors agreed that if the pagename should stay sort-of like this, then there should be a comma, as in Zionism, race, and genetics? I'd fix that myself, but I don't have the page-mover permission. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Dont think you need it, nableezy - 22:35, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

(I assume you mean page mover, not the comma.) I actually tried to make the move, but it didn't go through. Apparently too many things that need to be deleted to make way, or something like that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:38, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I did it for you. nableezy - 21:46, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Pre-RM discussion

Let's see if we can get something to stick, this time. The purpose of this sub-section is not to say why "in" is a bad idea. The purpose is only to consider what the best option, among the "in" options, would be, to put forward in the next RM. (In other words, let's postpone arguments about why the present pagename is better for the RM itself.) As I see it, there are three "in" variations that have been mentioned:

• Race and genetics in Zionism
• Race and genetics in Zionist ideology
• Race and genetics in Zionist thinking

Personally, I have a preference for Race and genetics in Zionism, because it's the simplest. I've also been doing some looking at other "in" pagenames, based upon talk comments that such titles are only used for places or organizations. And we have plenty of related hot-button pagenames where something is "in" things very akin to Zionism, as opposed to places or organizations. For example: Rape in the Hebrew Bible (sorry, that one came up when I put "race in" in the search box), Racism in sport, Racism in the LGBT community, and Race in horror films. That said, I'm willing to support any of the three above.

I realize that some editors prefer none of the above, but I'm specifically interested in what would be the best choice for a new RM discussion. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:15, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

We already had a preRM discussion, lots of them. In other words, attempts to get preagreement have largely failed. So I think that any editor that feels like taking a shot should put up the RM they think will fly based on all those previous discussions. Selfstudier (talk) 22:20, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Does that mean that you will support any of these three? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I am reserving my comments for a formal RM discussion.Selfstudier (talk) 22:27, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't see this as "taking a shot" and seeing what "will fly", but as trying to use discussion to get the strongest possible result. Other editors may have other priorities. Anyway, if other editors have any advice, I'd welcome that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:35, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Read what I actually said. Selfstudier (talk) 22:36, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that as well. ([8]) So I'll take that as support for Race and genetics in Zionism. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:40, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I find all these better than the current title. Andre🚐 22:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Although I still think a construct based on "in" might work, I can no longer support these versions, for the reasons given in #Zionism, and which race?, below. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:37, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

The subsequent resolution of the issue in #Zionism, and which race?, below, means that I no longer have the objection that I expressed in the sentence just above. But given that we cannot even get past "no consensus" over a comma, I'm reluctant to start another RM over Race and genetics in Zionism, although I'd support it if someone else does. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:13, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia has its own fun special policies about Oxford comma and the like, and I consider them pedantry and not worthy of consideration. A substantive question in my view is, why is the article still called "Zionism, race and genetics" which is just still a jumbly hodgepodge of a title. How about, "Zionist conceptions of Jewishness in terms of racial identity." Andre🚐 21:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Flogging a dead horse. Nishidani (talk) 21:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Horse is kickin, and a live WP:NOCON means more discussion. I thought you were retiring, though. Is it that you are retiring from edits, but not editorial oversight? Andre🚐 21:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Also: nay. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) In a sense, it's accurate, but it's awfully verbose. I could maybe see "Zionist conceptions of Jewish racial identity", although other editors have objected strongly to "Jewish racial identity". Or maybe "Racial conceptions of Jewishness in Zionism". Similarly, "Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism"; I actually kind of like that one. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:50, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I like that one too. Andre🚐 22:09, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

De horse is thoroughly flogged but continues to be beaten regardless. Selfstudier (talk) 23:36, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Well look I mean, clearly you and Nishidani consider the horse dead, but Tryptofish resurrected it and I agree frankly. The title isn't good. That's my humble opinion. Andre🚐 23:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

If editors don't want to discuss this on the merits, perhaps they would like to have an extended discussion on why it upsets them to see other editors discuss it on the merits. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:13, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm all for discussion but it needs to be something which hasn't been discussed at length already. The situation hasn't really changed, any RM will need to propose a title that has a chance at gaining a consensus and the discussions to date set boundaries on that. Selfstudier (talk) 16:44, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that we shouldn't discuss pagenames that have already been discussed and shown to be inadequate, but that doesn't mean that anyone should assume that it's impossible for editors to come up with new and better ideas. And just because there hasn't been consensus for previous ideas about new pagenames, no one should make the logical fallacy of assuming that there is a stable consensus in favor of the existing pagename. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:10, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

For WP:CCC, a new RM will be needed. I tried one with a few editors on board and it went nowhere so that's the problem, any significant pushback will result in nocon and we stay where we are, a consensus by default if you like (or inertia). Selfstudier (talk) 17:22, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

You tried an RM and that happened, and then I tried one and the same thing happened, so I very much understand how you feel. I agree, a new RM is the only way to actually effect a change. But it's reasonable to have some preliminary discussion among interested editors before starting a new RM, and uninterested editors need not participate in that if they don't want to. In a sense, we have what could be called a consensus by inertia, in the sense that there has not been a consensus to change to any particular new title, and that means that no one has consensus to simply move the page unilaterally to a new title. But I want to emphasize that this is not a consensus that the existing pagename is OK. A few other potential titles have been discussed, resulting in no consensus. So there isn't an active consensus that those few potential titles were better than the existing name. But nowhere has there been a consensus that the existing name is really good, and every discussion about that has revealed significant dissatisfaction with it among some editors, even while some other editors support it. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:31, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

So, that said, there's an idea for Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism. I like that it gets rid of "race and genetics". I also think it's useful to re-read the lead paragraph of this page, with that possible title in mind. It seems to me that it matches extremely well with the lead paragraph, and actually matches with it better than the existing pagename does. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

While I don't know if it will gain consensus, I'd be interested to try. Andre🚐 17:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Have done, so alerting this thread to continue the discussion in the new RM i started. Andre🚐 18:40, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you very much for having done so. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:26, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Editwarring/The genome era

I reverted this effective elision made by Andrevan, which rewrote:

(a)Jewish geneticists themselves were caught between the demands of professional commitment to objective science and their own personal emotional investments in the topic.

as

(b)Jewish geneticists were inspired by their own heritage to pursue the topic.

The error is obvious. Andrevan thinks that the generalization in (a) is based on Goldstein, the immediate, illustrative source. It wasn’t. It was based on the three successive citations to Abu-Haj (2012), Burton (2022) and Schaffer (2010) What is worse, Goldstein is a single instance, whereas the generalization in (b) retains the plural (Israeli geneticfists) which can only be justified in terms of Schaffer, Burton and Abu-Haj plus Goldstein. This is incompetent, the result of a lack of mastery of the sources.

Abu El-Haj (2012) poignantly describes how Jewish geneticists constantly navigate tensions between their professional commitments to objectivity and their openly acknowl edged personal attachments to studying Jewish populations. These tensions are par ticularly fraught given that, historically, non-Jewish scientists charged their Jewish counterparts with being too biased and subjective to speak credibly about Jewish biology (Abu El-Haj 2012, pp. 130–135). Burton p.435

Schaffer In Abraham's Children, Entine has noted that the pioneering scholar of the Priestly gene, Karl Skorecki, was 'motivated as much by his commitment to Israel as by scientific curiosity'. 59 Similarly, David Goldstein states clearly and openly his attachment to Israel in jacob's Legacy, describing his romantic ideological connection to the country as a Jew at an Israeli rock concert: Schaffer 2010 pp.86-87

That kind of careless rewriting seriously damages the article. Nishidani (talk) 22:07, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Fine, I'll restore this part, but you reverted several other of my edits, some of which were fine. Andre🚐 22:10, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, no.

“Jewish geneticists themselves were caught between the demands of professional commitment to objective science and their own personal emotional investments in the topic.”

Aside from the strangeness of “ Jewish geneticists themselves were caught” this is alleging in wikivoice that these geneticists were not objective or fully professional. That may be some critics opinions, but it is not a fact and can not be presented as such. Drsmoo (talk) 00:45, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

The only author who describes a conflict between objectivity and research is El-Haj, as described by Burton. The others are describing choice of research. And none of the selections above allege lack of objectivity as strongly as this paraphrase does. Drsmoo (talk) 01:05, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Could someone restore the text to the shape it had which is faithful to all four sources? Nishidani (talk) 22:09, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I have restored that [9] if you had simply explained about Goldstein, I would have done so rather than reverting several other good edits. Andre🚐 22:11, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I know I'm just talking into the wind, but "This is incompetent, the result of a lack of mastery of the sources" and "That kind of careless rewriting seriously damages the article" do not belong on this, or any, talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:45, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Not talking into the wind. Calling an edit incompetent is unacceptable. Drsmoo (talk) 00:52, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

That said, maybe we can remove the POV-section tag? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:49, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Not when the article is calling professional geneticists less than objective by presenting critical viewpoints as facts. Drsmoo (talk) 00:46, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

If that is the only objection, then Tryptofish is right. If several core sources from 'professional scholars', many cowritten by 'professionist geneticists' note that genetics, like any other science, has had problems with pure objectivity (which doesn't exist in any discipline), they must be respected. It Nishidani (talk) 07:42, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

To remind editors of what has already been extensively shown in the threads above, the following two quotes come from papers written by geneticists in the last two years or so.

’The misconception that human beings can be naturally divided into biologically distinguishable races has been extremely resilient and has become embedded in scientific research, medical practice and technologies, and formal education. Many elements of racial thinking, including essentialism and biological determinism, have influenced modern thinking around human genetics, to the marginalization of some peoples and the benefit of others . . racist concepts of race that are deeply embedded in science and U.S. society more broadly continue to affect scientific thinking and research, Scientists must critically examine the underlying assumptions about race—and human commonalityand difference—that shape their research studies..’‘Using Population Descriptors in Genetics and Genomics Research: A New Framework for an Evolving Field,’ National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine/. National Academies Press 2023 pp.1,32.

Most human geneticists are aware of the problems of imprecise or misused language, but face the difficulty that such language is embedded in many of the methods, tools and data we use. Clinical and anthropological datasets, which can be of enormous utility, often use outdated and scientifically incoherent labels to describe the individuals whose data they include . . the social categories and other groupings that individuals belong to are inescapable components of genetics research. However, within the human genetics community, some aspects of the academic language used to describe groups and subsets of people may foster erroneous beliefs beyond academia about human biology and the nature of these categories. Such descriptions frequently invoke concepts of ancestry and population structure, for reasons we will discuss below. But ancestry itself is often a poorly understood concept, and its relationship to genetic data is not straightforward. There are many implicit assumptions involved in inferring ancestry and population structure, and a similar number of pitfalls when interpreting the output of population genetic clustering analyses and algorithms. For example, the structures found in principal components analysis (PCA) of genetic variation depend strongly on the distribution of genetic ancestry included in the dataset, and is necessarily a sample-specific representation of genetic relationships. Similarly,the clusters identified by widely used methods such as STRUCTURE are often assigned ‘ancestry’ labels based on the present-day populations within the analysis in which cluster membership happens to be maximised, rather than any explicit inference of ancestral demography. The collection and sampling of genetic data - which often follows existing cultural, anthropological, geographical or political categories - also has a substantial impact, to the extent that some aspects of the clustering reflect sampling strategies rather thanany inherent genetic structure.’ ,Ewan Birney, Michael Inouye, Jennifer Raff, Adam Rutherford Aylwyn Scally,’ ‘The language of race, ethnicity, and ancestry in human genetic research,’ Biology June 2021.Nishidani (talk) 07:46, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

IN other words, we cannot keep a POV tag here simply because one doesn't want to offend a vague 'class' of professionals, who themselves openly admit that bias exists (and that they work to eliminate it).Nishidani (talk) 07:49, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

You are incorrect. That is why we have attribution. Wikipedia must not “offend” (in this case impugn/disparage) by casting unfalsifiable aspersions at the objectivity and professionalism of ”Jewish Geneticists” as facts. Drsmoo (talk) 11:53, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

OH good grief. Completely invented and a rather serious insinuation, because it suggests that this article's paraphrase of what, mostly, 'Jewish' scholars have written on the history of genetics, race and Zionist, is 'antisemitic'. Where on earth in the tetragrammaton's good name were 'unfalsifiable aspersions thrown at the objectivity and professionalism of "Jewish geneticists"? Strewth!!! Nishidani (talk) 14:35, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

In the article where it said “Jewish geneticists themselves were caught between the demands of professional commitment to objective science and their own personal emotional investments in the topic.”

I have already modified the section. Drsmoo (talk) 15:12, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not going to worry about attribution. But that is misleading itself. It suggests this is the (informed) opoinion of just two experts. It isn't. It reflects the work of Kirsh (2003), which was recognized as a fact 'determined' by her by Falk, and which successfully was endorsed by numerous sources (most recently Mitchell Hart). The text should only make clearer that "Jewish/Israeli geneticists" (contextually, those who work on this specific issue) were, in their bias, not significantly different from population geneticists generally, whose work, as is now increasingly recognized in several studies since 2020, reflected a broader Western bias that confused nations with ethnicities. Nishidani (talk) 21:07, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I'll just note that Andrevan, who placed the POV-section tag, removed it yesterday. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:13, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Since according to Drsmoo, that tag was justified when ' the article is calling professional geneticists less than objective by presenting critical viewpoints as facts.' Since Drsmoo himself changed that by attribution, by his own criterion, the POV tag is not longer legitimate.Nishidani (talk) 21:07, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm referring to the POV-section tag that was formerly in the genetics section of the page. The POV tag at the top of the page is a different tag. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:40, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

In my view, this section needs quite a bit of work. Seems to be some editorialising here that could do with attribution (E.g. see words “arguably” and “admitted”), I’m not sure the sources for “important” say that, and it’s unclear how a lot of the section relates to Zionism or Zionist ideology. A lot of this material should move out of this article to Genetic studies of Jews imho. BobFromBrockley (talk) 02:35, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Some editors might consider cleaning up for a few months the inept POV article on Genetic studies on Jews before worrying about that gutting proposal. This article uses secondary sources, while that is in large part patched incongruously together by paraphrases of snippets from the primary sources, mainly the abstracts, when the proper protocol should be to describe the the various results, frequently in blatant contradiction over time, only via what secondary sources state.

Words like 'arguably' are not 'editorializing'. That adverb, for example, comes straight from the source, to relieve the reader of the ridiculously repetitive 'according to' formula which many editors appear to love sticking everywhere, as if it subjectivized as an opinion what is fairly a straightfoward consensual viewpoint. I.e.

This article will consider the history of some of these arguments about Jewish ethnic and racial difference over the last century in an attempt to weigh up the potential and/or wisdom of encouraging scholarly interventions into the question of what constitutes, and marks out, Jews as a distinct group. It will argue that for all the scientific innovation and achievement of the last 50 years, much of the core agenda of these debates remains unchanged. It will also argue that the terrain of research has consistently been so clearly demarcated by intransigent ideological positions that discussions of this nature are unlikely to come to synthesis any time soon and instead are destined to remain bogged down in religious dogma and political agendas. Schaffer 2010 p.76.

I.e. 'Arguably' just flags that this has been argued, and the source of the statement tells you by whom. This is called stylistic variation, to avoid making the tedious prose recitation of 'according to' even duller than required.

What happened (in a virtual consensus of recent scholarship,not just El-Haj as claimed above) in Israel and among the overwhelmingly 'Jewish' geneticists engaging with this topic was what happened, as Burton's book and articles show, is exactly what happened with Turkish, Syrian, Lebanese, Iranian etc., geneticists, all of whom pursued their science, as in the Israeli/Jewish instance we outline here, against a background of nationalist beliefs, and all of whom were affected by this cultural bias. And this national framework in turn reflects a broader set of premises in the subject of population genetics in the West, as the two quotes I cited above indicate. There has been two much editing here that looks at the page in terms of 'ethnic' sensitivities and, I would argue, a protective-defensive sensitivity(which i can well understand but think misplaced) to anything regarding 'Israel'/'Jews') while neglecting the need to master all of the sources. Much of this attributive stuff ignores that the said source is as often as not, stating variation of a point made in several other sources, not mentioned to avoid overcramming the text with footnotes and multiple sourcing that is not needed. Only if one reads and retains in one's memory the content of all of the sources can one exercise a fair critical judgment as to when to attribute and when not to. One attributes only if the particular position is exceptional. Otherwise it is just a nervous formula.Nishidani (talk) 08:34, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@Bobfrombrockley: FYI, this page was in part created because material not identical to but related to this page was ejected from Genetic studies on Jews as being too off-topic and hyper-specific. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:00, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Most teachers and academic editors will tell their students and writers to avoid the word "arguably". Someone writing a journal article should instead boldly state that they are arguing something - as in the Schaffer quote above. And then secondary and tertiary sources (like us) should tell the world that that writer did indeed argue something (e.g. "Burton argues..."). When historians establish a fact (X happened in 1952), we can say that in our voice without attribution. When historians are making an argument about their interpretation, we should attribute the argument. We shouldn't act as if a particular line of interpretation (even if "fairly" consensual) has become a fact.

You may be right that Genetic studies of Jews is inept and POV; I don't know enough about genetics to judge it. But we shouldn't use that article's problems - or not being able to win consensus for our version of that article - to fork off and create a problematic article here. Content about genetics that isn't directly about "Race and genetics in Zionist ideology" (or whatever this article is now called) simply doesn't belong here. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:01, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Bob, Since it is not about editwarring, please open a separate section about this alleged fork (also mentioned in the preceding section) and we can address it there. Selfstudier (talk) 12:48, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Good point but I think I will amend the title of this section, as most of the preceding section has been about what should go in the "The genome era" section of the article. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:38, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Well 'most teachers and academic editors'(where?) should read, at least for the quality of the prose, - ignoring the political bullshit - Christopher Hitchens's last book Arguably. He was widely admired for his sensitivity to language and for his prose style. All scholars and historians are 'arguing' a position in their field. There is no such thing as a book or research paper in the humanities that is strictly factual. Were your rule to be applied, every single sentence in an encyclopedia article that cannot reflect an explicit mention of 'consensus' would be qualified by attribution. That's the reductio ad absurdum. 'Arguably', Bob, flags that what follows is not a 'fact' but an informed view that can be rationally defended. To hold that adverb hostage ('most teachers' must refer to some recent fad) while ignoring the stylistic crassness of using 17 times 'according to' when we have a dozen ways of implying attribution ('in one account/version'/ it has been argued/ 'Burton interprets this'/A number of scholars' etc,.etc,etc,

Content about genetics that isn't directly about "Race and genetics in Zionist ideology" (or whatever this article is now called) simply doesn't belong here.

There is no content about genetics in this article that does not bear directly on "Race and genetics in Zionist ideology". It's authoritative sources that determine relevance. It is somewhat of a contradiction to admit you don't know much about genetics regarding the other page, and yet claim that material by geneticists like Burton, who do the history also here, are not relevant to a page on the history of genetics in Zionist ideology. Nishidani (talk) 12:18, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Hitchens is a great writer, if not necessarily a model for either scholarly writing or a neutral encyclopedia. As far as I can see, the book of that title only actually uses the word once in its page. I am not in favour of constantly repeating "according to", and all in favour of using a mix of phrases such as "X argues". Arguably is a weasel word. If someone has argued something, say who; if noone has argued it, it's OR.

Please don't put words in my mouth but read what I've actually said. I don't know a lot about genetics, which is why I've not edited that page. But I am very familiar with the sources on the history of Zionism and history of race. Burton's historical writing is really rigorous and it's very proper her work on things that fall within the topic of this article are cited. As far as I can see, she is cited just once in the "The genome era" section. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:50, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

The point was about sensitivity to language, for which scholarly articles or encyclopedias are not well-known. I have to grit my teeth to read most wiki articles, and this is true also of this one. Hitchens in that title is summing up what his project is there, to argue for or against something. If you google 'T.S. Eliot+arguably' or 'James Joyce+arguably' or any other great writer, you will find that there are a huge number of ranking specialists in each who use 'arguably' to introduce some aspect of those writers' oeuvre. It is simply wrong to assert as though it were true that 'arguably' is frowned on in good writing.

I drew a logical inference from two related remarks. That is the impression I got, no more nor less. (b) I have a fairly strong knowledge of Zionist history: it is overwhelmingly written by scholars who appear to have a strong commitment to the world Zionism produced. Just as much of Catholic history is written by Catholics, or Japanese history by Japanese scholars. Nothing anomalous, though one cannot write these days histories of anything from within in the fold because all known scholarly fields are no longer ethnic or denominational. If I have any knowledge about a topic that I hazard to suggest is very strongly grounded in familiarity with the ongoing scholarship, and about which I've published, it is on the concept of 'race'. And it is precisely this which has long puzzled me about the relative historical silence of histories of Zionism on that seminal, formative element in the tradition. You only really begin to observe historians tackling it after a full century of prolific scholarship on the movement and its ideas, a scholarship which focused on the political dynamics of a theory which in 1913 hardly any Jews had heard much of (1% according to an estimation I once read somewhere) and yet managed by extraordinary political genius to realize its principles and win the adherence of the majority of Jewish communities the world over. It's an old dictum of historians that the 'past' of a nation only emerges in all of its troublesome undersides when a country achieves full maturation, a certain measure of confidence and security in its achievements. This is particularly true of 'race', where recognizing the problem took centuries in Australia and the U.S., and Israel is no different. When I did those 667 Australian aboriginal articles, I read scores and scores of primary sources down to the 1950s which described as an unfortunate byblow of progress the 'inevitable' disappearance of the original inhabitants of the continent. It was normal for even front-ranking scholars down to the 1970s to consider mentioning 'race' and its lethal impact as a marginal matter, not worth dignifying with the name of scholarship.

So Burton is not mentioned in the genomics section more than once? Well, while writing, I tried to avoid the temptation of using anyone source excessively. Editors always criticize relying on one source too much. She is used where she is decidedly better, and more informed, than even Falk (not to speak of Weitzman): on what the archives now yield up as the personal motives of geneticists, in-house conflicts, disputes over methodologies etc., in genetic approaches to populations/races, where Zionist cultural beliefs inflected or influenced the 'Israeli' school somewhat distinctively. I can't see the problem in doing that.Nishidani (talk) 16:21, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Zionism, and which race?

It occurs to me that, if one is defining the scope of the page based upon the existing pagename, then there is a great deal of source material about Zionism and race that pertains to present-day Zionism in the occupied territories and its relationship to the Palestinian people in terms of their racial differences from Israeli Jews. This page does not cover that. That's obviously because the assumption underlying the existing pagename is that "race and genetics" refers only to how race and genetics might apply to Jewish people, but not to people who make no claim of being Jews. But that's an assumption, not anything that follows logically from the pagename as it is written. That's either a problem with the pagename, or a problem with the page scope. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Good point. And I think that's why a number of editors in the discussions above proposed titles that had wording like "on the origins of the Jewish people" or "on Jewish identity" in the title. We have a whole article Racism in Israel, which should probably be in the See also section if it isn't, that it would not be a good idea to rewrite here, so

I would argue for narrower scope (and if necessary narrower title) rather than widening. BobFromBrockley (talk) 08:15, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree that the scope should be kept narrow. Having an in-depth section on Neo-Zionism would make this page unwieldy. I also agree that the pagename is really going to have to be something that specifies "Jewish" with regard to "race", and, for that reason, I can no longer support a rename to "Race and genetics in Zionism". --Tryptofish (talk) 18:12, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I think this is a good point, and although I do not know what this means for the best article title, I want to express my support for this concept. I think there is an implication that Zionism is concerned with the race and genetics of Jewish people. I think that Zionism is definitely considered with the provenance of Jewish DNA, writ large, which is why genetics is being thrown in there, I think. Race was a pseudogenetic or pseudoscientific proposal of one way to view Jewish ethnicity. Contrary to what some have argued on this page, ethnicity is a description of a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment. The term ethnicity is often used interchangeably with the term nation, particularly in cases of ethnic nationalism. I would argue that Jews have all of these, and post-Israel there is a specific Israeli Zionist nationalism that we seem particularly concerned with in the context of its rhetoric in the pre-1940s time period. The "ancestry" is perhaps the part that belongs in the article title. Ancestry is not an article that Wikipedia recognizes as it redirects to "ancestor," but it seems to be a widely accepted synonym for genetic heritage. Andre🚐 19:26, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that we should replace the word "race" in the title with a different word, but I am arguing that we cannot simply use the word "race" without specifying that we are talking only about the "Jewish race" (so-called), and not "race" in general. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:37, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm thinking about proposing an RM to Jewish racial identity in Zionism. Any thoughts? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:22, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's better. Andre🚐 23:25, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Definitely prefer it to current title. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:06, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Doesnt seem to match the topic at all, but feel free to propose whatever you like. nableezy - 16:36, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

"Jewish racial identity in Zionism" is a different, though overlapping, topic than "Zionism, race, and genetics." Anyone can go ahead and start the "Jewish racial identity in Zionism" article, but I don't see the benefit of changing the scope of this article rather than starting a separate article about Jewish racial identity in Zionism.

To respond to the point in the OP, it's true that there is plenty of coverage about Zionism, race, genetics, and Palestinians, and the Zionism, race, and genetics article could be expanded to include that content. But the fact that the article currently is not complete -- that aspects of the topic aren't fully covered -- is a reason to expand the article, not to re-scope it. An obvious place for expansion is -- hey, you guessed it! -- Falk's 2017 "Zionism and the Biology of Jews," which BTW has a free PDF linked at Google Scholar, who makes a point that has probably been made by others and probably could be covered in the Wikipedia article somehow, for example at p. 201:

Even though not a race in a biological sense, political Zionism, after a century of attempts to prove contemporary Jews’ material, biological relationships – not merely their spiritual, cultural ones – to the ancient people of the biblical stories, in spite of widespread interspersing with local communities, finally has succeeded. It is tragic that Zionism, as well as Arab Nationalism, have failed to recognize the Palestinians, many of whom similarly appear to share phylogenetic relations to the historic inhabitants of the country, as equal partners.

Levivich (talk) 16:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the 2nd part. Andre🚐 16:58, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I did suggest myself at one point adding Jew(s)/Jewish somewhere in the title but I also said that I would not support a title that did not match up with the article content. Although anything is possible, it seems doubtful that the proposed title would gain consensus. Selfstudier (talk) 17:22, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

The proposed title is not only inept, but disturbing. The form 'Jewish racial identity in Zionism' assumes that there is such a (ridiculous) 'thing' as a 'Jewish racial identity' ('Jewish racial identity in Rabbinical thought'/Jewish racial identity in Israel' etc.etc.) and that the article will handle it as it was treated in Zionism. 3 months have been wasted on this minority but very vocal disgruntlement with the natural title. One cannot expect that editors return to devote much of their wiki time to rehashing ad infinitum a question which has been framed and reframed at least a dozen times, to no productive purpose. As per Levivich, nothing is stopping editors from developing a sister article for that hypothetical title.Nishidani (talk) 19:09, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I actually agree with the point that Jewish racial identity in Zionism, and Zionism, race and genetics, are two different, though overlapping, topics. I also think that the page, as it is now, is about Jewish racial identity in Zionism, and is only about a subset of Zionism, race and genetics. Let me be very clear about it: the page content as it is now matches very closely with Jewish racial identity in Zionism, and matches very poorly with the existing title – because it completely omits a big chunk of what the existing title is about. Anyone who thinks it does not omit that, or who thinks that the page is not currently about Jewish racial identity as it has been discussed in Zionism, is being, well, inept and disturbing.

So I think the question becomes whether the page should be expanded to match the current title, or whether the title should be changed to match the current scope of the page. One could certainly expand the page, but editors should seriously consider what that would look like. First, if done properly, it would very nearly double the length of the page. Second, it would make the page feel like there are two parts to it: how race and genetics in Zionism have been used to argue about the identity of the Jewish people, and how race (and genetics??) in Zionism have been used to "other" the Palestinians.

I have a very strong feeling that if someone were to expand the page in that way, two things would happen: some editors would want to revert it, and some editors would want to delete the page as being a "coatrack". How would one define what belongs here, and what fits better at other pages about Zionism and the Palestinians (of which there are many)? I would like to see those editors who want to keep the current title and support expanding the page propose more than using the Falk source, and actually describe what the content would consist of. How would it be organized, and how long would it be? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:26, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Editors who want to keep the current title and support expanding the page have already proposed more than using the Falk source. Many sources have now been identified and discussed.

We went over this in August, extensively, up above at "#Sources on Zionism, race and genetics," where there is a long list of sources in the refbox at the bottom of the thread, some in bold. That's the thread where I talked about my algorithm, which I wrote on my userpage so I wouldn't have to write it out again.

Then, this month, we discussed what are the sources and what is the content again at "#X,Y(,) and Z as a title format," where I pointed specifically to half a dozen sources.

The sources for the article "Zionism, race, and genetics" include Kirsh 2003, Falk 2006, Hirsch 2009, Abu El-Haj 2012, Baker 2017, and Falk 2017, among many others that are already cited in the article and have been mentioned or discussed on this page.

In my view, the content should be determined by following the algorithm I lay out at User:Levivich#Forward editing article writing algorithm (although that's not policy or consensus, just what I think is best practice). If you want to know exactly what that content is, go read those half-dozen sources and whatever they all talk about is what's WP:DUE for inclusion. For my part, I have not read them all (merely skimmed), so I don't know exactly what's DUE and what's not DUE, and I don't see how anyone could know that until they actually read all the sources.

I trust there will be no further need for anyone to ask again what the scope of the article is or what the sources for the topic are. Levivich (talk) 19:53, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

That doesn't address the elephant in the room, namely that these sources cover Zionism, purported Jewish race, and purported Jewish genetics, and not Palestinians. Andre🚐 19:56, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I literally just quoted a source that covers Zionism, race, genetics, and Palestinians in the same paragraph. How are you saying "and not Palestinians" when the quote is right here? Have you actually opened any of the sources I just listed to see if they cover Zionism, race, genetics, and Palestinians? If not, please do so before making any more comments here. Levivich (talk) 20:03, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I obviously read your quote, which does not address the genetics or race of Palestinians as a contemporaneous concern of lack of concern by Zionists to those of Jews, but merely laments that very issue that we are discussing. I do not see where any of the sources provided discuss the genetics or racial issues around Palestinians other than that to say that Zionists, lamentably, have not considered them. I have not read the sources in full, I have skimmed those which have intersected with our discussion, and read others in excerpt. Some I have read most or all of especially shorter journal articles. I am happy to read where the question of Palestinian genetics is addressed either as a historical matter or a current one, for Arab nationalists, other than simply to again, lament the lack of coverage of this topic. Maybe that's a pointer that it's a less significant topic, but I suspect we simply haven't read for example, an article about Nasser, 1967 and Arab nationalist views on race. You can say that's a different article, and you may be right. Still, I think the point stands that the article focuses on the question of Zionist rhetoric on Jewish racial or ethnic composition and its impact on geopolitics. Andre🚐 21:30, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I didn't ask what the scope of the article it, or what the sources are. I was there, in those earlier discussions that you link to. And I'm not seeing any previous discussion about us covering race or genetics being used to "other" the Palestinians. I'm certainly not worried about finding enough sources. But what I did ask about included whether it would make this page too long, and whether it would make this page feel like a coatrack. I trust there will be no further need for me to repeat myself. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:05, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Let's stay away from the "inept" language if we can... I question the logic here. I agree that there is no such thing as a "Jewish race," I thought we agreed that "race" itself was a historical subject of study, and not an actually extant thing other than that it is socially constructed and appears in papers and on census forms. As far as editors devoting their time, you are certainly welcome but not obligated to devote any time to a discussion, but what you should avoid doing is gatekeeping, WP:OWNing, or otherwise engaging in personal attacks or questioning of good faith or of competency (absent a compelling reason to invoke WP:CIR, that is, which I do not see how we can do here, for a content dispute) Andre🚐 19:34, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

About there being "no such thing", I did actually say above "Jewish race (so-called)", so I agree that it's a dubious concept. But it's also a concept that numerous sources tell us has been taken quite seriously, in the history of things that this page is about. (For that matter "race and genetics" is a dubious concept, too.) So it's OK for us to use a pagename that reflects what the sources tell us. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:51, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree with that Andre🚐 19:57, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

As a sort of experiment, I'm going to expand the page in this way, and I think it will be interesting to see whether or not editors feel that it works. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:32, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Zionism, race and genetics#Race and non-Jews. Doubtless, it can be improved upon, but it's a start, and I avoided making it overly lengthy. Do editors think this really improves the page? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:57, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry but that violates one of the fundamental working rules of experienced content editors - namely, in building a new page, do not copy and paste or closely paraphrase material already existing in other wiki articles. It disobliges editors from actually reading the sources themselves, which has been a perennial problem with this talk page - excessive opinions about opinions by other editors without due attention to actually reading the extensive and high quality sources we have. I have given some reasons below for why this new material is totally out of line with the protocols that so far have governed the composition of the article as we have it, and as is dictated by the title itself.Nishidani (talk) 21:55, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, article reorganization and/or splitting isn't discouraged, but you simply must cite and attribute (see Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia Andre🚐 22:06, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Which I did, via my edit summaries. By the way, I am an experienced content editor, and I know full-well how to write much more carefully, including in FAs. I did this expecting that it would never be a stable version. I wanted to see if other editors would revise it, which has happened to my satisfaction, or whether it would simply be reverted, which I'm pleased hasn't happened so far. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:19, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

copying content from another page within Wikipedia requires supplementary attribution to indicate it. At a minimum, this means providing an edit summary at the destination page—that is, the page into which the material is copied—stating that content was copied, together with a link to the source (copied-from) page, e.g. Copied content from [[<page name>]]; see that page's history for attribution. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to make a note in an edit summary on the source page as well. Content reusers should also consider leaving notes on the talk pages of both the source and destination.

That wasn't done. Two, whatever that guideline states, in practice, a lot of damage has been done in the I/P area by copying and pasting material over several pages, which smacks of pushing a POV. We have a link system which dispenses with that. But most importantly, as a practicing content specialist, that guideline appears to be ignorant of what we all know: wikipedia is not a reliable source. Since we all recognize this principle, to copy-and-paste (without known reverification) from one page to another is to assume that the original page is reliable. So there is an internal contradiction in guidelines. Nishidani (talk) 22:17, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

There is no contradiction in guidelines; you simply must copy the references, or you should not copy unreferenced material, if copying is called-for/merited, it may/should be reverted or deleted if it is unreferenced. Andre🚐 22:24, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

There's a lot of noise in this talk, but everything any editor does is subject to subsequent improvement by others. No big deal. And if one looks at the comment by the administrator who disapproved the #Did you know nomination, he pointed out that "an editor just today was removing close paraphrasing from sources". That editor was me. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:32, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Here are some additional potential sources: [10], [11], [12], [13]. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:10, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

The insertion of extraneous matter

The article deals with the themes of Zionism, race and genetics. The following passages, apart numerous problems, contains almost nothing on race and genetics, and neither do the sources.

Neo-Zionism is a right-wing, nationalistic and religious ideology that appeared in Israel following the Six-Day War in 1967 and the capture of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Neo-Zionists consider these lands part of Israel and advocate their settlement by Israeli Jews. Some advocate the transfer of Arabs not only from these areas but also from within the Green Line. Neo-Zionists consider "secular Zionism", particularly the labor version, as too weak on nationalism and that it never understood the impossibility of Arabs and Jews living together in peace. Neo-Zionists claim that the Arab attitude to Israel is inherently rooted in anti-Semitism and that it is a Zionist illusion to think living in peace and together with them is possible. They consider Arabs in Israel to be a fifth column and to pose a demographic threat to the Jewish majority in Israel. From their point of view, the only solution for achieving peace is through "deterrence and retaliation" or preferably "transfer by agreement" of the Israeli Arabs and the Palestinian population of the occupied Palestinian Territories to neighboring Arab states.

I.e. an excursus on Neo-Zionism almost totally lifted from the paraphrase of one source, Uri Ram, as he is cited on the wiki Neo-Zionism page. Cross-wiki copy-and- paste stuff, one of the worst editorial vices afflicting this topic area. And relying on one source which nowhere writes of 'Zionism', 'race' and 'genetics. At the least that is a gross violation of WP:Undue in its exposure of a single viewpoint by one scholar for over 180 words, in his papers that do not mention zionism and race/genetics.

(b)According to the 2004 U.S. State Department Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for Israel and the Occupied Territories, the Israeli government had done "little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens". The 2005 U.S. Department of State report on Israel wrote: "[T]he government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including ... institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens." The 2010 U.S. State Department Country Report stated that Israeli law prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, and that government effectively enforced these prohibitions. Former Likud MK and Minister of Defense Moshe Arens has criticized the treatment of minorities in Israel, saying that they did not bear the full obligation of Israeli citizenship, nor were they extended the full privileges of citizenship.

i.e. in 2004-2005 the US state department said Israel did little to counteract discrimination against Israeli Palestinians. In 2010 it changed its view and said Israel generally enforces the prohibition against such discrimination.Moshe Arens noted something similar. No scholarly secondary sourcing, no mention of race or genetics or Zionism, unlike Falk who does mention all three.

There is quite a lot of 'stuff' on Zionism as a form of racism, which hasn't been included because the sources used for the page simply do not take this as their focus. In any case, that kind of material on the institutional politics of discrimination can be found in many other wiki articles, whereas this focus on the concept of race as it developed under Zionism, and that formative influence on later genetic studies, a very specific issue. The article could allow expansion on it through Falk (who deals with it en passant and often somewhat weakly) and others, but should not be derailed into a divagations of this highly generic type. By all means discuss this, but for the moment the material must be excluded as replicating another article, introducing matter not related to the topic's focus and essive use of a single source, while aimlessly quoting the variations in US State Department's self-contradictory standpoints. Nishidani (talk) 21:42, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

That's certainly one answer to what I asked just above the section break, and I'm not at all averse to undoing it. Alternatively, I think it would be fine to significantly revise it. But here's the thing. If we remove it, then we really are not covering everything about Zionism, race and genetics. So I'm not seeing the logic behind editors who say don't change the pagename but don't add material like this either. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:54, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Articles are written to criteria of minimal adequacy only if their composition begins and ends with the search for, close reading of, and paraphrasing of sources bearing directly on the theme(s) announced in the topic header. One could easily swamp this article by covering 'everything' directly or vaguely reflecting the issues of Zionism's view of other peoples. But familiarity with the topic will tell anyone that it is not customary for other peoples, over the last decades, to be referred to as 'races'. That is why the ground you are probing is best covered by a new article, as several of us here have often said.Nishidani (talk) 22:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

As I said, it was certainly appropriate to revise it from what I originally put there. And I'm fine with the changes/deletions that you made. If we leave it at that, or if the section subsequently gets revised further, with additional material on, especially, the genetics, that's fine too. And with that, I'm willing to accept that the page really is about "Zionism, race and genetics", that it doesn't omit an obvious aspect of Zionism and race. So, with that, I'm no longer feeling like it should be renamed to "Jewish racial identity in Zionism" – because, with this change, it's no longer limited to Jewish racial identity (so-called). That was my concern in the opening of the main part of this talk section, and it's been resolved to my satisfaction. But if, hypothetically, the section gets entirely deleted, then I think we will have to revisit the pagename. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:12, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Levivich, as usual, pointed the way to expansion under the present title. Though I am retired, I will be rereading for some months all of the given sources used here and anymore that are forthcoming. Perhaps I, for one, may come up with some useful suggestions in this regard. But we should try to not plunge the page into a political morass. Politics is all over the I/P area and I personally am wearied by the havoc it makes to succinct encyclopedic work. The affliction of wikipedia is often also a matter of haste. Some editors, ask Zero and others as well, take several months, if not years, just to get some difficult material organized. I had noticed this topical nexus for over a decade, but never rushed it despite the fact that there was ample material for it. Patience is one of our guarantees of strong editing towards a reliable text, which is always under revision.Nishidani (talk) 22:24, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I welcome patience. And I paid attention to what Levivich said about it, even to the point of quoting what he had said in talk, with an edit summary that pointed to the diff where he said it – and that's one of the parts that you did not delete. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:27, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 28 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Zionism, race and genetics → Zionism, race, and genetics – There have been a lot of discussions here about renames, but this proposal is simply to put a comma after "race", and before "and genetics". This is something that was raised earlier, during the previous requested move, and it appeared to be non-controversial then. Although just a comma, it has the effect of breaking up the phrase "race and genetics". My hope is that it will be acceptable to editors who approve of the existing pagename, while also being at least a small and incremental step for editors who dislike the current title. -- Tryptofish (talk) 20:20, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Sources on triplets using or avoiding the Oxford comma are about even. So there is no problem either way.Nishidani (talk) 21:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

• Neutral leaning Oxford. Academic, in my mind. Leaning slightly toward Oxford vs no Oxford, but I do not see it as material or impactful. Andre🚐 22:10, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support adding the Oxford/Harvard comma for better clarity per WP:PRECISE. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:46, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• Support, the comma clarifies that race and genetics are two things. Levivich (talk) 19:25, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. The Oxford comma is completely unnecessary. It makes perfect sense without. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:03, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Neutral. I disagree that it changes the meaning and so I don't care either way. Zero^talk 13:27, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Distinction without a difference, both are valid and both mean the same thing. nableezy - 13:37, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:RETAIN/MOS:OXFORD. Scanning the text of the article I found about 6 lists of more than two items outside of quotes. Of those, 5 did not use an Oxford comma, and 1 did. This suggests that, absent a wider consensus to switch to using the Oxford comma throughout the article, we should not change the article title on its own. —siroχo 04:48, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 13 October 2023

Zionism, race and genetics → Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism – Better and more descriptive title that matches the article text and the sources more closely, and removes ambiguous and confusing reference to "genetics" which is being used to mean "eugenics" not "molecular genetics" or "Mendelian genetics" given the anachronism of pre-1930s race science. Present title implies an association between "Zionism" and "race and genetics," which can be problematic. Additionally, present title fails to relate the 3 free-floating concepts, whereas the new title exactly relates the racial conceptions of Jewish identity that are being discussed in Zionism as opposed to implying some problematic relation between "Zionism" and "race and genetics" (i.e., discredited race science/eugenics) Andre🚐 17:55, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support. I suggest that editors evaluating this RM read the lead paragraph of this page, with the RM in mind. The proposed new title nails it, in terms of reflecting what the page is about, as reflected, in turn, by the lead paragraph. The proposed rename tracks very closely with the wording of that paragraph – and the existing pagename doesn't. I agree with the nom, that "race and genetics" is a very problematic thing for us to associate with Zionism, without giving more nuance (and the long history of proposals to delete this page reflects, to a considerable extent, discomfort with that awkward language). Anticipating that there may be objections to leaving "genetics" out of the proposed title, I'll point out that, according to this page, genetic analyses were used simply as a more modern tool to examine what was earlier lumped under the term "race", so genetics here are not some sort of separate topic, outside of "racial conceptions", but instead a tool to study race. I recognize that the proposed new title is a bit on the long side. But it takes that many words to capture what the page is about (believe me, there have been endless discussions in this talk, rejecting anything more concise). So if one takes it as given that the page is about what it is about, then this title captures what it's about, as a pagename must. And if one dislikes the complexity of the proposed title, that's really a dislike of having this page, which is an issue for AfD, not RM. In contrast, the deeply flawed existing pagename achieves comparative brevity by way of lumping together, with no real connection, three independent concepts, almost in the manner of a slogan. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:43, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  Adding to my original comment, it occurs to me that editors who come to this discussion without being familiar with the history of this page may be concerned about comments below, about a supposed few editors who supposedly ignore previous discussions. As should be obvious from the current pagename, this page has had a very contentious history. In fact, there are a few editors who walk a line bordering on WP:OWN, who constantly make that accusation, about others ignoring previous discussions. I want to emphasize what I said in the first sentence above: that editors who want to evaluate this RM should read the lead paragraph of this page. Look at how closely the proposed new title matches with that lead paragraph. Then look at how the existing title matches far less well. And see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section#Opening paragraph, which says all one needs to know about finding the scope of a page. Decide for yourself which pagename really reflects the page scope. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support The proposed article name is better, much more in keeping with article subject matter. The current article title contradicts parts of the article which discusses racial identity and historical "race science" which should never be confused with genetics. TarnishedPath^talk 01:05, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Question Is there a particular reason not to use "Jewishness", as is used in the article? (e.g. Racial conceptions of Jewishness in Zionism) ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 04:29, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Simple answer: it's a weirder word, and "Jewish identity" is used more. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Per Google: "the quality of being Jewish or of having characteristics regarded as typically Jewish". I second Iskandar's comment. TarnishedPath^talk 07:31, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose the proposer's rationale suggests they have not read the earlier talk page discussions, or the core sources on which this article has been built. Their claim that that article’s …reference to "genetics"… is being used to mean "eugenics" not "molecular genetics" or "Mendelian genetics" is clearly incorrect. The 191 instances of genetic* throughout the article evidence this clearly. A title which incorrectly excises this element of the article is inappropriate. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:47, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

  I think it's unfair to assert that someone did not read the discussions or sources simply because you disagree with what they say. Andrevan has taken part in those previous discussions, as have I, so it seems pretty likely that we were both aware of what was discussed. And nobody claimed that "genetics" was being used to mean those things; the concern is that the word can be misunderstood that way when paired with "race". And I've refuted the claim that we must include the word "genetics", in my own comment: genetics are treated by all the sources as a modern method to study "racial conceptions", so they are not a standalone concept that must be included in the pagename, but rather something that is a subset of "racial conceptions". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

  The green text in my comment is a direct quote from Andrevan’s post. He used the word mean. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:33, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

  What I meant was that no one is claiming that editors are using it to mean that. We can agree that individuals have historically used it with that meaning. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  As we discussed at length, which you can find in the archive by Ctrl+F for the discussion of Mendelian genetics, no conception of modern genetics, nor one of Mendelian inheritance, was ever discussed or considered, but race science and eugenic ideas certainly were. Mendelian genetics was mentioned in passing in one of the sources. There is certainly a more modern contemporary discussion, which probably belongs not in this article, but at genetic studies on Jews and appears to be just a split or fork of that article with a different spin. But that has nothing to do with Zionists that are discussed in the article like Ruppin. Andre🚐 23:54, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose I made it plain in preRFC discussion that I would not accept a title that did not address both race and genetics per the sources, so I will repeat that here. Selfstudier (talk) 22:52, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support Better as it indicates a cogent subject. Drsmoo ( talk) 00:13, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Onceinawhile. This is the nth attempt by some two or three editors to challenge the no consensus outcome of several different formulations successively and exhaustively discussed. The no consensus reflected consistently a majority of editors' views that there is nothing problematic in the existing title, which has excellent source backing. There must be a natural limit to how many times the same challenge is thrown down (attrition) and the same arguments repeated, most of them ignoring the detailed rebuttals concerning inadequate formulations made in the several threads earlier on. Nishidani (talk) 17:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  I said this earlier: [14]. There is no consensus that the existing pagename is good. And just because some editors disagree with those "detailed rebuttals", does not mean that they are ignoring them. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  It is obvious there is no consensus in favour of the existing title. This is a good faith attempt to identify is there is an alternative that might find consensus. Two or three editors have consistently, strongly defended the existing title, but a range of other editors have expressed disagreements, but so far no alternative has generated new consensus. Please assume good faith and don't misrepresent the history of this page. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - per Onceinawhile, this proposal ignores that genetics is used repeatedly in the sources and makes the OR leap that what they really mean is eugenics. This is another title that would change the scope of the article. nableezy - 20:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  What parts of the page would have to be removed? What new content would have to be added? None, so far as I can see. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  There are sources in the contemporary portion that are referenced in the article, but it's a WP:SYNTH leap that it's the same genetics that pre-1948 Zionists were thinking about. The early portion of the article discusses Ruppin and other Zionists who were possessed of pseudoscientific ideas about humanity, in several ways, and then goes on to touch on contemporary academic views on Jewish genetics that aren't related to that at all, and then makes the synthetic leap to say that Ruppin's eugenics/race science is really the same question as what my 23andme DNA test says, which it isn't. It's confusing, obtuse, and probably creates a bad apprehension in readers as to the veracity of the question "are most Jews today descended from Middle Eastern ancestors." As opposed to the consensus on the other article where that particular content belongs. Andre🚐 22:40, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  Andrevan, I actually don't agree with you about the SYNTH, because it seems to me that there are secondary sources that discuss the topic as it developed over time (and contrary to rumors, I don't have a secret agenda of getting this page deleted). But that's not an RM discussion. What is relevant to RM is that "Zionism, race and genetics" does not help the reader understand how the page scope evolved over time, whereas "Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism" makes clearer what the continuous thread is. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:49, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  Well, regardless of whether you agree that the contemporary analyses of Jewish DNA inheritance and admixture, such as Ostrer and the response to Ostrer, aren't related to Zionism or Zionist views on race, which didn't know about genetics, and that Mendelian genetics is mentioned in passing but not relevant to the topic; regardless of one's view on that material, the present title implies that there were Zionist views on genetics, which as we've established, is an anachronism and temporally confusing as a title since genetics would not have meant heredity in the 1930s. Andre🚐 22:56, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  All of this has been said, and resaid, and restated, and rebutted, and repeated for 3 months. The majority of editors have never voiced a concern about the present title. Two editors alone keep asserting that there is a problem. That is the only problem. One cannot expect editors to keep derailing their working lives on wiki by being called on to return to address an exiguous dissent by two editors alone. The original bone of contention has been gnawed to the point there's nothing left to chew on.Nishidani (talk) 23:01, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  It's clearly more than just two of us. There's never been a WP:Consensus of editors supporting the present title. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:10, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  Without particularly arguing the merits of your claim, there are already 3 editors supporting this RM, in addition to me, the proposer; maybe that will be the extent of the support, but either way, WP:CCC. Andre🚐 23:44, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per Andrevan. Loksmythe (talk) 04:04, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Proposed title is convoluted. The argument that this current article title is linking three separate, unattached ideas together for no reason at all is ridiculous, never mind the same argument can also be applied (more so) to the proposed title. Antiquated racial genetic science is a foundational part of Zionism, see Israeli citizenship law for recent examples. JJNito197 (talk) 08:34, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  Israeli citizenship laws are not based in genetics. Can you substantiate your assertion? Drsmoo (talk) 09:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  "Every Jew in the world has the unrestricted right to immigrate to Israel and become an Israeli citizen." It is based on the myth of ethnic decent, which is antiquated racial science. How is this otherwise quantified? JJNito197 (talk) 10:01, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support - per JJNito197, this is a bit long as a title, but per Tryptofish, it does encapsulate the page subject very well. There has been much discussion of the title, and I doubt this would be the end of the matter, but it constitutes an improvement. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. There remains a distinct problem in the linking of race and genetics in the article title, and this proposal removes that whilst encapsulating the article scope. Sometimes improvement needs to be incremental, and this is a distinct step forward. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:22, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• Okay. I've been avoiding commenting much because I can see that this is an open invitation to waste everyone's time by repeating, or ignoring, what has been written over three months of relentless attrition by, mainly, two editors who can't accept the existing title.

Either you derive the title from the existing article or you change the title in order to have a mandate to change, perhaps significantly or radically the articler we have. The proposed alternative is, once more, inept. 'Racial conceptions of Jewish identity in Zionism' (why the plural?) is an example of the latter. At least half of this article is not about 'racial conceptions of Jewish identity' or even about 'Jewish identity' (a genetic or biological profile is only a very small part of 'identity', Jewish or otherwise).

The article simply states that in its formative decades, Zionism adopted a racial definition of Jewishness. The article then shows how this thesis, formally disowned by science in the world and elsewhere, continued to exercise a formative impact both in Israel and abroad, often as an unconscious ideological bias which inflected methodologies in genetics. This held for many Zioonist and non-Zionists. The focus in exclusively on this specific tradition, not on how Zionism, politically, or via social planning, or immigration policies, or in terms of legal or religious ideas, applies 'racial' ideas.

So this title can't avoid the implication of trying to engineer a different article. If you both, Trypofish /Andrevan, want a different article, as variously clear from the several titles proposed and disposed of over three months, please write that alternative article. You' ll find zero objections to such a new article. The energy wasted in endless argufying would, if used to actually write something for wikipedia, be productive, and no repeated drag on the time of other editors, the majority of whom for three months have found none of your many alternatives persuasive.Nishidani (talk) 11:41, 19 October 2023 (UTC)