Talk:African Americans

Previous discussions concerning the infobox in the top right corner of the article can be found at Talk:African Americans/summary.

Small typo

"Some of these were. Slavery, reconstruction, development of the African-American community, participation in the great military conflicts of the United States, racial segregation, and the Civil Rights Movement."

There should be no colon after "were". Could someone fix this?

You mean there should be *a* colon after "were", correct? I'm on it, if still pertinent. ==Mic Morose

Can someone also change all instances of African slaves to enslaved Africans? There is a connotation there. Slavery was a condition forced upon them, not a job occupation.

Spanish pronunciation

The very last paragraph expands on pronunciation in Spanish and Portuguese: "In Latin America, negro, which translates as black is the term generally used to refer and describe black people and, similarly to mulatto, it is not considered offensive at all in these regions. However, it is pronounced differently, with the e (a mid front unrounded vowel in American Spanish: [ˈneɣɾo], and a close-mid front unrounded vowel in Brazilian Portuguese: [ˈneɡɾu]) being closer to a sound that it is intermediate between phonemes found in English words such as pay and egg (in Spanish) or day, city and item (in Portuguese)." It fails to mention, however, that in Spanish the -g- is also pronounced differently, although this is indirectly indicated in the IPA rendering ([ˈne'ɣɾo]).

Book for further reading

*{{Cite book |last= Kilson |first= Martin |year= 2014 |title= Transformation of the African American Intelligentsia, 1880–2012 |location= Cambridge, MA |publisher= [[Harvard University Press]] |isbn= 978-0-674-28354-1 }}

"Black" and "Black American" vs. "African American" at the Viola Davis article

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Viola Davis#WP:Citation overkill in the lead; also see the section started immediately below that. Flyer22 (talk) 13:07, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Unnecessarily crowding the infobox

As seen here and here, I reverted X4n6 twice, and X4n6 reverted me twice, with regard to images being added to the infobox. In my opinion, X4n6 has cluttered the infobox with a lot of unnecessary images. X4n6 has cited WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE for doing so. WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE does not justify such an edit in the least. Flyer22 (talk) 13:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Flyer22 engaged in a lengthy, nonsensical "debate" on the Viola Davis talk. Then when I refused to continue feeding the troll there - and said as much - she attempt to retaliate by hounding my edits on this article here and here and here. As for WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE, it speaks for itself and needs no defense from me.X4n6 (talk) 14:33, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

We are not having all those images in the infobox. Before you even added the amount to 60, there was discussion to lower the amount from 35 to 20. We definitely are not having 60 freaking pictures there. If one wants to exchange one of the current images with a different person, use Talk page from now on. Dave Dial (talk) 14:38, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm starting to think I should tune out anything X4n6 states. Flyer22 (talk) 14:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Also, take note that I made this edit before reverting X4n6 at the Viola Davis article; both articles are on my WP:Watchlist. And my prior edit history at the African American article is seen here and here. Flyer22 (talk) 14:45, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to intervene in your argument, but I have to point something. If these additional people are notable enough for an infobox, shouldn't they also be mentioned in the text sections? Dimadick (talk) 19:49, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Does WP: IMAGE RELEVANCE apply here?

I added several photos to the template, per WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE. I don't find it particularly odd that a country with over 42 million African Americans living in the U.S., and however many more in its history, would have enough notable entries to at least extend the article's photo template to, the Contents box of the article about African Americans. That is exactly what I did here. But some editors have claimed that is "way too much." But they haven't explained why, or why [several lines of blank space] is somehow pre to relevant images? Also, no one has provided a policy or guidelines which supports that conclusion.

Finally, while I am generally loath to quote policies and guidelines verbatim, I think this section of MOS is pretty definitive:

Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly and directly related to the article's topic. Because the Wikipedia project is in a position to offer multimedia learning to its audience, images are an important part of any article's presentation. Effort should therefore be made to improve quality and choice of images or captions in articles rather than favoring their removal, especially on pages that have few visuals.

In that context, I also welcome editors to offer which photos I included were too insignificant to merit inclusion. Because editors have arbitrarily removed, without referencing any policy or MOS guideline people like:

Michael Jackson

Paul Robeson

Serena Williams

Nat King Cole

Leontyne Price

Benjamin O. Davis

Shirley Chisholm

Althea Gibson

Barry Black

Walter Payton

Langston Hughes

Marian Anderson

Viola Davis

Maya Angelou

Sammy Davis, Jr.

Douglas Wilder

Guion Bluford

Arthur Ashe

Dr. Dre

Ronald McNair

Joycelyn Elders

Ella Fitzgerald

Jesse Jackson

Joe Louis

Ben Carson

John Lewis

Jay-Z

John Conyers

Barbara Jordan

Whoopi Goldberg

Harry Belafonte

Ella Fitzgerald

Mahalia Jackson

Josephine Baker

Ray Charles

Billie Holiday

Louis Armstrong

and

Stevie Wonder

They're all apparently disposable in the article, despite their notability. Or, as one editor suggested, one could just "replace" anyone left in the article. But who in this list is so non-notable that he/she merits replacement?:

Frederick Douglass

Harriet Tubman

Booker T. Washington

Martin Luther King, Jr.

Rosa Parks

Hiram Rhodes Revels

Thurgood Marshall

Muhammad Ali

Clarence Thomas

Barack Obama

Jackie Robinson

Maya Angelou

Oprah Winfrey

Condoleezza Rice

Ben Carson

Denzel Washington

Chuck Berry

Mariah Carrey

Serena Williams

Whoopi Goldberg

Again, if someone can reference a policy/guideline or MOS which supersedes IMAGE RELEVANCE and argues in favor of empty blank space over notable photos, please let me know, so we can discuss it here. Thanks. X4n6 (talk) 15:35, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Image relevance most certainly does not say to overload the infobox with 60 freaking images. In fact, on the very page you cite there is a link to the 'Dos and Don'ts' of placing images in articles. One such "Don't" states:

Don't overload articles with images.

So yea, don't do that anymore. Using the policy you are citing as a reason is weak sauce. Dave Dial (talk) 15:46, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• Obviously I disagree. I've already quoted the guideline. More importantly, a supposedly "weak" policy is better than no policy at all. Do you have one you care to reference? Also, it's hardly "overloading" when I just filled blank space. X4n6 (talk) 15:57, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

RfC: What is proper number of photos for the template in this article?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The current number of images (20) has consensus; several were against more, a few wanted even fewer, but all but two were satisfied with the current number. That's almost as good as we get around here. --GRuban (talk) 18:19, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

---

Should the template contain more or less photos? X4n6 (talk) 15:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• Same or More: Images feel right in this article. Called here by the bot. I have no involvement in this article to date. I really like the template with the twenty photographs. Very good graphic design, makes a good visual point about the ubiquity and diversity of achievements of African Americans, and is quite powerful in that regard, in a very good way, in my opinion. SageRad (talk) 00:20, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - The twenty seems representative/adequate. Soupforone (talk) 02:07, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
• Same - most of the most influential African Americans are pictured; it's good for the article, but don't add too many more. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:07, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - Since this RfC is so poorly worded, this is what the basis of disagreement is about. Also, since the current editors who have weighed in already, the number of images in the infobox has been 20. So 'Same' equals 20.
  • For a stable period of time(years), the infobox had 12 images.
  • Then some editor more than doubled the number to 25 earlier this year(2015), and it stayed that way until recently.
  • Then in late August 2015, an editor(Mr.Bob.298) increased the number to 35 images.
  • Despite some discussion to decrease the size, the number stayed at 35 until September 28, 2015. When the editor who started this RfC(X4n6) increased the number of images to 60.
  • Relevant previous discussions are here and here.
• Also, please note that White Americans have 0 people in the infobox and Hispanic and Latino Americans have 12. There is no way this article should have more than 20 images in the infobox. Dave Dial (talk) 02:49, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
• Same - I think the article has just the right amount of pictures, too many might be overwhelming. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 22:55, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
• A dozen is sufficient. Any more than that, and it's just a big visual blur. And don't include people who don't primarily identify as African-American; e.g., do not add Mariah Carey and other multi-ethnic people to make a point.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:15, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
• One Find one representative image. We're not picking the top ten or twenty or a hundred most favorited individuals here. The images are so tiny we can't see the distinguishing features of anyone. --Pete (talk) 03:56, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
• Current amount or less; more would be extremely cluttered. One can almost not appreciate all images currently displayed. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 02:12, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
• 25 or less summoned by bot A consideration is that when the picture box intrudes into the text, it becomes excessive. I endorse a modified version of SMcCandlish's point, namely 'don't include people who don't clearly identify as African-American' . There seems a reasonable mix at present between 'public figures', sport, entertainment, culture. Long-term notability could perhaps be a criterion, over current fame (no Paul Robeson? No notable pre-rock+roll musicians?). I've no idea how you choose, how do you weigh Rosa Parks against a current huge star? What was done on the Black British page was to create a 'composite picture' with names listed below. It has resulted in a better image, if not necessarily a better 'sample'. To do that of course you have to settle on a 'fixed group', since it is harder to change. Pincrete (talk) 22:30, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

second-class citizens

"Believed to be inferior to white people, they were treated as second-class citizens." This is a lazy and meaningless sentence. Black slaves were not citizens of any class. They were legally slaves and were treated as slaves. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 (talk) 05:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Deleted views By Karenga and Shahadah

Some such as Maulana Karenga and Owen Alik Shahadah argue African-American is more appropriate, because it accurately articulates geography and historical origin. Thus linking a people to a continent as opposed to an abstract color Both Karenga and Shahadah (who are contemporaries and associates) hold this opinion. The statement is important to this article.--Inayity (talk) 06:33, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

A discussion thread about the reliability and notability of Shahadah and his pages is taking place at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Owen 'Alik Shahadah, please comment there so we can get a final consensus. Rupert Loup (talk) 12:01, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

African-American architects

I restored this article, got rid of the most obvious copyright infringement and began to fix the references. This article needs more work and I'd welcome any help to get it in Wikipedia shape. I think there is much that can be preserved here but the overly promotional language has to go. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

"Afro-American"

I know "Afro-American" (vs. "African-American") has largely fallen out of use; I wanted to cite for it having been current as recently as the mid-1980s, but I don't see an appropriate place in the article to place such a footnote. Anyway, if someone sees a place to put it, that's the usage by Cornel West throughout his essay "The Paradox of Afro-American Rebellion", p.44-58 in The 60s Without Apology (1985, edited by Sohnya Sayres, Anders Stephanson, Stanley Aronowitz, Fredric Jameson), University of Minnesota Press, ISBN 0-8166-1337-0. - Jmabel | Talk 19:09, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

How the hell is Mariah Carey African American?

Really, isn't there some better example Outedexits (talk) 13:15, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree Outedexits, I've been wanting to change that. She's a quarter African American at best judging by her biography. Its ridiculous that there is a serious push to include her over the African Americans above or over the 100 Greatest African Americans. I vote to remove. This isn't a popularity contest. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:44, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Please change this, makes it looks comedic and peavish. Lope181.50.106.49 (talk) 20:06, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Carey identifies as African American, is part African American, and a variety of WP:Reliable sources state that she's African American; that's how she counts as African American. Similar can be stated of Vanessa L. Williams, whose "race"/ethnicity has been debated times over at Talk:Vanessa L. Williams. Flyer22 Reborn (talk)

I don't know what reliable sources say, but I don't care what she identifies as given she is not a reliable source; she could identify as a unicorn but that wouldn't make her one. Given it's arguable "what she is" and we have limited space, I say remove and only include clear-cut cases. --LjL (talk) 20:21, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Identity counts on Wikipedia (not always, but enough), as is clear by WP:BLPCAT and somewhat indicated at WP:ETHNICRACECAT. My point was that it doesn't matter what we think about her "race"/ethnicity, especially given the subjective nature of it. What matters is what the person identifies as, and what WP:Reliable sources state, just like it does in the case of the Halle Berry article. Furthermore, "African American" is defined as "total or partial ancestry" in the lead of this article, and, as the scientific community generally agrees, we are all out of Africa anyway. I don't feel strongly on whether or not we should include her image in the infobox, but I will note that this infobox has been used by editors to show the diversity of the African American community. That diversity includes people like Carey, Williams, and Wentworth Miller. Outedexits asked, "How the hell is Mariah Carey African American?" I answered. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:40, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

For anyone wanting to know Carey's views on the matter, you can watch this clip of her on the George Lopez show (starting at 1:04), where, like Halle Berry, she essentially states that she considers herself black/African American because of the one-drop rule (though Berry has also noted other reasons for personally identifying as African American). I see that, in the #RfC: What is proper number of photos for the template in this article? section above, SMcCandlish thinks that Carey doesn't primarily identify as African American and stated that we shouldn't include her to prove a point. Pincrete agreed that we shouldn't "include people who don't clearly identify as African-American". Per what I've stated above, I don't think including Carey is a WP:POINTY violation, but I'll leave this matter up to others. On a side note: Outedexits is indefinitely blocked for WP:Sockpuppetry. Longtime abusive editor; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tetra quark/Archive. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:23, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

endorsing Flyer's comments, I think self-identification is the only viable basis and, as she says, with regard to African-Americans, the 'one-drop' principle often applies. The situation I am more familiar with is an ethnic group claiming someone as 'one of us' when they become notable, even though the individual may feel no connection or wish to disown any connection to to their distant roots. Were ethnicity rational, Obama would have the same right to claim he was a WASP as to claim to be an African-American. I don't have an opinion on Carey, beyond endorsing 'what does she say', 'what do RS say'. Pincrete (talk) 22:51, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

I have no qualm with "what do RS say", but I have a bit of a problem with "what does she say". How much more are we going to stretch BLP-ism to accomodate for whatever the living persons in our articles want to be claimed about them? Maybe they can have their own website to make their own arbitrary claims about themselves instead of having Wikipedia make them for them, just a thought. LjL (talk) 22:57, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

LjL and Pincrete (last time WP:Pinging Pincrete to this section because I assume he will check back here if he wants to read replies), I wasn't suggesting that self-identification alone should be the main way we categorize people based on "race"/ethnicity. After all, Rachel Dolezal identifying as black/African American isn't enough for us to categorize her as black/African American. But I am stating that, like Berry and Williams, Carey identifies as black/African American (has identified as black/African American in different interviews), has been categorized as black/African American by WP:Reliable sources, and is part black/African American. Who are we to state that she is any less black/African American than Halle Berry is and that she therefore does not count as black/African American? What are we basing that on? Their skin color differences, despite both having a black parent and a white parent? I was stating that we need to go by self-identity and/or what WP:Reliable sources state. Like I noted at Talk:Johnny Depp when agreeing with CorbieVreccan that we shouldn't categorize Johnny Depp as African American, "There have been various disputes at the Barack Obama article and talk page relating to the one-drop rule, which is why the lead of that article currently has a WP:Hidden note, stating, "PLEASE DO not CHANGE OBAMA'S RACE FROM 'AFRICAN AMERICAN', per existing consensus. See discussions and FAQ (Q2) on the talk page." With the Barack Obama article, we went with what the preponderance of WP:Reliable sources were/are calling him. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:19, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Apologies Flyer, any lack of clarity was mine not yours. I endorse everything you are saying, both how identified generally by RS + self-identification need to be allowed for. Pincrete (talk) 19:14, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

A subject considering that they qualify for a label under such a "rule" of racial pigeonholing isn't the same as their self-identification. We'd need more to go on than one thin statement in an interview. I had a Moravian great-great-great-grandmother but do not self-identify as a Czech-American, even if I'd agree I qualify as "part-Czech" in a genetic background sense, were someone to ask me about that. There's a difference. PS: Noted, about Outedexits and socking, but the issued raised is a valid one, as evidenced by the extended, multi-view discussion that is raised.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  04:59, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Replacing the notable but fading-from-influence Carey with the mega-notable Michael Jackson, whose ethnic self-identification isn't questioned, would seem to make this discussion moot.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:07, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

SMcCandlish (last time WP:Pinging SMcCandlish to this section because I assume he will check back here if he wants to read replies), see what I just stated above to both LjL and Pincrete in one reply; that is what I mean in this case. I included that clip because, upon a quick Google search, I didn't come across a WP:Reliable source where Carey self-identifies as black/African American (despite, in the past, having read in more than one article that she does identify that way), and because it is a source where she directly speaks on the matter (in other words, seeing and hearing is often believing). While she doesn't directly state that she views herself as black/African American in that interview, she does state that "In the U.S., she is black", and she seems mostly content with that, going on to state that her father is black and that her mother is white. She is also categorized as African American by a variety of categories at the Mariah Carey article because she is part African American and is identified as African American in some of the sources there. As for Michael Jackson, considering all the speculation and debate about his changing physical appearance, I'm not sure about his self-identification as black/African American, but I know that he is without a doubt categorized as black/African American. Still, I object to your change because, as stated before, we should be presenting diversity in that infobox, not simply images of people "we think look black, so they're black." We shouldn't be excluding people because they look "too white" and therefore some people won't view them as black. I also disagree because how are we to define "fading-from-influence"? If we mean "not in the spotlight as much" and/or "doesn't have as much sway with the new or older generation as before," the same can be stated of various people in that infobox. But do all these people have lasting influence? Yes. The Legacy section of the Mariah Carey article is clear about her lasting influence; she still influences up-and-coming singers, whether it's seen on singing shows, where the singers comment about her being their inspiration or wanting a voice like hers (in her glory years, no doubt), or whether it's stated by up-and-coming singers or new stars in interviews. But I noted that I'd leave this infobox matter up to others; it doesn't mean that I accept the outcome. The "light-skinned black people and/or light-skinned biracial people for the infobox" aspect has come up before at this talk page; a recent example is a February 2015 discussion where Steeletrap argued for adding Mariah Carey. And it will come up again and again at this talk page. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:19, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

I have no objection to reverting my change [actually, I just self-reverted it]; making it seemed like an obvious way to get around the issue, and Jackson's a more notable example to use to begin with, but of course it doesn't help resolve dispute to replace one dispute with a new one. If it's desirable to not replace a female example with a male one, there are plenty of long-term-notable, very influential women would could be used as examples here, even if you want to stick with singers (the most obvious is probably Ella Fitzgerald). I don't personally have an opinion about whether Carey "should" be considered "black"; I think this kind of racialist thinking is ridiculous to begin with, and the "one drop rule" is basically politically motivated and manipulative superstition. My concern was that one video clip where Carey confirms partial African descent does not equate to an "I am African-American" self-identification, that's all. It's original research. If there are additional sources confirming such a self-identification (even in a sideband way, e.g. speaking at a NAACP event, etc.), then it wouldn't be OR (though this is a matter that should be taken up at her own article, which does not ID her as an African American). Due to WP:BLP we have a responsibility to respect self-identification over external labeling; it's not enough that some articles probably refer to Carey as African-American. Because of increased understanding of race as a social construct, mostly one bent to negative ends, more and more people actively resist such labeling, and we don't have enough information to know whether Carey is one of them. As for 'we should be presenting diversity in that infobox, not simply images of people "we think look black, so they're black"', that's another reason why Jackson seems an obvious choice; his quest to change his physical appearance did not affect whether he can objectively be classified as African-American (though some feel it challenges his classification as "black", which as I suggested is basically pointless noise, socio-culturally speaking, to begin with). We do not need any large percentage of included photos that are intentionally chosen because they're light-skinned; including Colin Powell and a few others is sufficient. Going out of our way in this regard would be no different from going to the Irish people article and intentionally singling out a bunch of swarthy individuals from the extreme west of the island to over-make a point, or top-loading the "White people" article with individuals who've spent lots of time in a tanning booth. Illustrating the range of diversity is not the same as browbeating people with it. :) This article isn't "Black Americans", so there is not much need to go out of our way to demonstrate "hey, not all 'black' people are dark!" to begin with. It's not like anyone reading this article doesn't already understand that, even if they're school children or people from countries without a lot of "black" people like Finland and Japan.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:02, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

It's only WP:Original research if I was arguing to use that video clip as a source for the article to relay that she has directly self-identified as black/African American; I wasn't. Like the introduction of the WP:Original research policy currently states, "This policy of no original research does not apply to talk pages." I explained why I included the clip. As for self-identification with regard to "race"/ethnicity, we clearly do not simply go on that alone at this site. With regard to "race"/ethnicity, we usually don't wait to see how a person self-identifies; we usually categorize them on "obviousness" and/or by what the preponderance of WP:Reliable sources state. If Obama identified as white, it's still unlikely that the preponderance of WP:Reliable sources wouldn't be referring to him as black/African American. But, per my statements above, how a person self-identities also matters to me. And I would not have stated that Carey self-identifies as black/African American if I hadn't read it in WP:Reliable sources over the years. I don't know what you mean about her Wikipedia article not identifying her as African American; it clearly does, which is why I stated, "She is also categorized as African American by a variety of categories at the Mariah Carey article because she is part African American and is identified as African American in some of the sources there." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:37, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

[outdent] If Mariah Carey has a Black parent, was raised in Black culture, and self-identifies as African American, I think it's fine to identify her as both African American and Mixed Race. She is both. Another example of a person who doesn't necessarily "look Black" to many, but identifies as such, is Rashida Jones, the daughter of Quincy Jones. Both are different from Dolezal as Dolezal was raised white, has white parents, and fabricated a new, fictitious identity for herself. Totally different. - CorbieV^☊☼ 17:07, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Repeat: One video clip where Carey confirms partial African descent does not equate to an "I am African-American" self-identification, that's all. The "had a black parent" claim isn't borne out anyway, except under "one-drop rule" thinking, which is basically anti-scientific. We know only that her father was of African American and Venezuelan descent, and do not know whether he self-identified as African American, Hispanic, multiracial, or what.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:02, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of that clip, WP:Reliable sources have identified her as black/African American and/or as having stated that she identifies that way; some of these sources are in her Wikipedia article. As for Carey's father's self-identification, every indication that Carey has given about his "race"/ethnicity is that he saw himself as black/African American, and that includes her comment in that aforementioned clip (note that I stated "indication," not "confirmation"). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:37, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Lack of confirmation is a BLP issue and looks like OR (if not to you then to some, in the form of novel analysis/interpretation, i.e. "reaching"). External labeling by sources is not self-identification. We do not have any kind of need to include Carey, when there are hot-swappable alternatives (see below) that, without raising any such BLP/OR question, preserve an unquestionably notable, female, world-famous, post-black-and-white-era, light-skinned, singer-songwriter/actress/beauty-symbol in the infobox, to the extent that any of those particular criteria are important to begin with (probably none of them are other than "notable" and maybe "female").  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  04:44, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Again, I was clear about why I provided that video clip; it is Carey directly commenting on the topic of "race"/ethnicity. In the video clip, she clearly states that she is black in the U.S. and that her father is black (her father being black is something you question since you take into account his identity and that we shouldn't be adhering to the one-drop rule), but Carey has always described him as black. I know this from having read various articles on Carey over the years (my mom was/still is a huge Whitney Houston fan, and Carey was commonly considered Houston's main rival); it's these various articles that contribute to me stating that she has self-identified as black/African American before. Either way, I've been very clear that we do not solely or even mostly go by self-identification when it comes to categorizing people's "race"/ethnicity at this site. As for any supposed WP:BLP violation, see what I stated a below; I bolded for emphasis. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:52, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Houston would probably be an even better Carey-replacement than either Turner or Knowles.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

You seem to continue to question Carey's star quality, despite her huge accomplishments. She was consistently compared to Houston because of her talent and accomplishments. She is the only singer I've seen credited as a true rival to Houston. Again, look at the influence she has had, and still has. I don't see how Beyoncé Knowles is more notable than Carey. Knowles is light-skinned, yes; but, like I noted below, Carey being listed is not simply a light-skinned matter. There are already light-skinned people in the infobox. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:05, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

• Proposed alternative solution: Pick someone from Category:African-American female singers (light-skinned if you like). NB: Mariah Carey does not appear in this category. That's a really strong indication she should not appear in this article. Tina Turner seems like a reasonable bet. If there's any goal to retain a younger, more recently-notable face in there, even Beyoncé would work, though her notability level is lower (though like Turner, and Carey for that matter, she's a Hollywood movie star as well as best-selling singer, so is double-notable). Pinging: Savvyjack23, CorbieVreccan, Flyer22 Reborn, Pincrete, LjL, 181.50.106.49  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:09, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

There are already light-skinned African American people in the infobox; for example, Malcom X and Obama are considered light-skinned African American people. The point is that Carey and those similar to her represent another aspect of the diverse African American community. And that Carey is not in Category:African-American female singers because no one has yet placed her there (or they did and she was later removed for whatever reason) is not "a really strong indication she should not appear in this article." Like I noted above, "She is also categorized as African American by a variety of categories at the Mariah Carey article because she is part African American and is identified as African American in some of the sources there." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:37, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

For example, she is in Category:African-American female singer-songwriters. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:42, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Colorism (who is "black enough" and who isn't, and who is better because of their light skin or dark skin) is a serious issue in the African American community, and I see that issue being reflected in this discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:52, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

I do, too, namely in the insistence that it's wrong to remove Mariah Carey (whose own article and the sources for it do not indicate she self-IDs as "African[-]American"), solely on the basis that we need more light-skinned examples. (Colorism in the US runs in the opposite direction it does in Africa, with prejudice in most contexts running against those with darker skin and more obviously African features). I've provided this talk page with two obvious alternatives that do not have potential WP:NOR / WP:BLP issues, and I don't even agree with the view that we need to stuff more light-skinned examples in there; it's a red herring to begin with. I've done enough, others can decide (how about some actual African-American editors?) and I decline to continue more circular argumentation about this.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  04:34, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Nowhere did I state or indicate that we should include Carey "solely on the basis that we need more light-skinned examples." Firstly, Carey is not simply "a light-skinned example." Her case is that of a biracial woman who, to many people, does not "look black" but identifies as black/African American and is categorized as black/African American by various WP:Reliable sources. Like Halley Berry, she states that she has a white parent and a black parent (no matter if you don't consider Carey's father black), but that, in the U.S., she is seen as black and therefore this factors into her identity as black. Berry goes one step further and acknowledges that she "looks black," which makes it easier for her to be accepted as black. Carey, on the other hand, had a tougher time being accepted as white or black, or anything else, as she's stated or indicated in various interviews over the years, and as was made clear by her mother on Oprah (see this video clip if you haven't already). You made it seem like adding Mariah Carey to the infobox is a WP:POINTY violation, which is silly to me, given that she is identified as African American in various WP:Reliable sources and by categories in her Wikipedia article. If she can be safely categorized as African American in that article, and it is in no way a WP:BLP violation or, more specifically, a WP:BLPCAT violation, she can be safely identified as African American in this Wikipedia article. You (and the blocked editor who started this discussion) made it seem like we should forgo including Carey because some people will not see her as black/African American, despite the fact that she is indeed categorized as African American by various WP:Reliable sources, identifies as black/African American and with black/African American culture, and has been embraced by that culture for years. And then there is the aforementioned February 2015 discussion I mentioned. I saw all of that as a problem, which is why I stated "we should be presenting diversity in that infobox, not simply images of people 'we think look black, so they're black'" and "We shouldn't be excluding people because they look 'too white' and therefore some people won't view them as black.'" No one is stating that we should have a bunch of "examples" like Carey in the infobox. But some of us are stating that having one or two "examples" like Carey is fine, since Carey indeed represents another aspect of the varied African American community.

This type of discussion is why I mainly stay out of "race"/ethnicity discussions on Wikipedia; I've been clear on my talk page and elsewhere on Wikipedia that most of the scientific community doesn't believe in "race" in the way that society generally does, which is also why I commonly point to Recent African origin of modern humans in these types of discussions. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:52, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I understand what you're getting at. But what I'm getting at is that nothing at Carey's article indicates that she actually self-identifies as African-American at all, and using a handful of sources that do want to classify her that way is a serious PoV problem as well as raising the ABOUTSELF, BLP, and IDENTITY issues. All she's said is that being mixed-race caused familial problems and social challenges growing up. This is what I mean by this being a subtle OR problem; it's a synthetic analysis coming to a conclusion not evidenced in the cited sources, even if it's a rather understandable and innocent one. If a fighter pilot said that having had a part-Jewish father caused him some problems growing up in Idaho this would not equate to a self-identification as a Jew himself. Many of us melting-pot Americans do not consider ourselves to be "an anything" other than melting-pot Americans (scientifically the idea "I'm 1/8th English" or whatever is nonsense to begin with; genetics doesn't work that way). And yes, we do very strongly consider such self-identification matters as a BLP issue; they come up quite frequently, and not just with regard to "race" or ethnicity. It would not be enough that some newspaper had labeled the fighter pilot "Jewish-American" or "a Jew". WP is absolutely not in a position to advocate the "one-drop rule" in WPs own voice, either directly or subtly. My broader point, however, is that an infobox is not a place to put examples that generate dispute, so Carey should be replaced on that basis alone anyway.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Given the extended discussion on my talk page, and your "21:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)" post above, I think we generally understand each other's points. Again, I apologize if I misinterpreted your views. But I will note here that I didn't state that self-identification does not matter as a BLP issue; in my "20:40, 26 November 2015 (UTC)" post above, I was clear that it does. But I was also clear that "With regard to 'race'/ethnicity, we usually don't wait to see how a person self-identifies; we usually categorize them on 'obviousness' and/or by what the preponderance of WP:Reliable sources state. If Obama identified as white, it's still unlikely that the preponderance of WP:Reliable sources wouldn't be referring to him as black/African American." I was not suggesting that we impose a one-drop rule on the article. And, given your posts on my talk page, I think you know that; society already imposes the one-drop rule enough, mainly based on appearance, or else Obama wouldn't simply be thought of as "black/African American" more than he is ever thought of as white, despite his biracial heritage. In fact, I can't think of any case where he is simply identified as white. If anyone were to call him white, everyone would bat an eye. But call him black, and it's fine. I've been clear that Carey has self-identified as black/African American (even if not directly in that first clip), that she's identified as black/African American by various WP:Reliable sources, and that she is accepted as black/African American by the African American community. My point all along has been that, considering those factors, it is not wrong in the least to include her in the infobox as African American; doing so is not stating that she is not also white/multiracial. A good thing to look at in a case like this is Talk:Barack Obama/FAQ, where it states, "The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ('biracial', 'mixed', 'Kenyan-American', 'mulatto', 'quadroon', etc.)?", and then goes on to answer with regard to the definition of African American or black, and with regard to WP:Reliable sources and WP:Due weight. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:05, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Carey is the daughter of a white woman and a black man; she's as black as President Obama. https://books.google.com/books?id=xcwDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false Let's please not descend into colorism; she's just as notable as Rihanna, another African American pop star. (The reaction to her addition speaks volumes about the extent of colorism in America; this is something Rashida Jones has had to deal with.) Steeletrap (talk) 22:32, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

As to Dolezal, there's a reason that she was able to live the lie for years: there are thousands of black people who look like her. In addition, there's a difference between having mixed ancestry--and looking more like your white parent--and lying about your ancestry. Steeletrap (talk) 22:32, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Steeletrap, Vvven was the latest account to remove Carey, stating, "mariah carey cant be included because she is genetically and visually a mixed. and millions of laatinos affirm that she is latina because her backgrounds." I reverted, per above and per Talk:Mariah Carey#RfC: Are "African American" categories supported by sources and policy?, where the WP:Consensus is clear. But I'm not going to WP:Edit war over this, especially since this article is vulnerable to WP:Socks pushing their POV. Also, it is worth noting that Vvven states on his user page, "Im a white Latino that born in my beautiful country Venezuela." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Flyer22 Reborn Wath is problem if i state my true ethnic and backgroung if thousands of million state that hes black or "afro american" while they have right with contribute in a ethnic page when they just have of african 600 years old when they were is african. i have to right to say the same too. i am white latino., and with the question, she is has very statements and sources more valids of shes is a latina than the supposedly that shes is african american, that she said that shes is african american, and you like her, dont support anything, is like say that obama is white just that in case that he said he said that. is not valid that. shes has complete backgrounds Venezuelan latina, and White..-.. shes not should included here--Vvven (talk) 00:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Vvven, huh? There is clearly a language barrier between us. I understood a little bit of your argument. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:42, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

ok you understand all but i going to traduce it for you will happy and dont cry--Vvven (talk) 00:51, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

":Flyer22 Reborn Wath is problem if i says my true ethnic and backgroung if thousands of million also says that they are blacks or "afro american"s and they have the right of contribute in a ethnic page as this, and they just have of african when 600 years old they were in reality afro or african, now they are just americans called they self "african". i have to right to say, as you says, the same too. ok i am white latino., and with in reality matter, in she there facts and sources much more valids, that shes is a latina, than the suppose that shes is african american, that she said that is african american, and you people like her, dont support anything, is like say that obama is white (just that in case that he could said) just beacause he said that. is not valid too. shes has complete backgrounds of Venezuelan (latina), and WHITE..-.. shes not can be included here no think change much but you can read now?--Vvven (talk) 00:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)"

On a somewhat related note, have a look at this edit on "White people" where "people who aren't completely white, people for whom visual evidence is inadequate, and ugly people" were removed. Here we are pushing to include someone with a parent who is in turn half-African American, there they purge people who aren't "101% white" or are too ugly to be a good example of the pure race. This is awful. LjL (talk) 18:14, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Note: Noting here that Vvven has again removed Carey, this time with an absurd edit summary. Vvven, considering Talk:Mariah Carey#RfC: Are "African American" categories supported by sources and policy?, good luck removing Carey from African American categories...if you try that next. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:23, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Accord of the discussion in Mariah Carey composed of fanatics Afro Americans people, just says a couple of lies and not based in true arguments. Her father is a Latino Venezuelan, not an african american. Carey also has a white mother. For this same dumb fact, she should also be included in White Americans article. --Vvven (talk) 23:30, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Vvven, I don't have anything more to state to you, except that I've again noted disagreement with your view in the article's edit history, and would report you for WP:Personal attacks if you were worth reporting. I'm used to personal attacks at this site, so I can let them roll off me unless I really want to get an editor away from me or WP:Blocked. But since you called Alanscottwalker, Wikimandia, Steeletrap and Snow Rise "fanatics," and they have the right to know that, I've WP:Pinged them in this paragraph. Good luck with your "Carey is not African American" crusade; you'll need it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:57, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

And as for the other personal attacks I was speaking of, Vvven removed them before I responded. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:02, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

This is not a crusade, this is says the true to diffenrence to this facade of this article. an article with intentions to feel proud more in biased terms of who is who is not than says the true. they could be fanatism because says that a Venezuelan is African American or says that an Irish American is balck is be a blind.--Vvven (talk) 00:13, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I fail to see how Carey is more noteworthy as a female representative of the performing arts than Billie Holliday, Ella Fitzgerald, Leontyne Price, Diana Ross, or Nina Simone, to name a few examples. —Coconutporkpie (talk) 21:43, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, articles should give due weight to viewpoints published in reliable, independent sources. Concerning Carey's noteworthiness or relevance, I observe that she is conspicuously absent from 100 Greatest African Americans, which includes performing artists Marian Anderson, John Coltrane, Katherine Dunham, and Duke Ellington. Why is Carey's picture featured in this article and not theirs?—Coconutporkpie (talk) 22:19, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Regarding Vvven's edit, which was reverted again, or any other image addition to the infobox, the matter has been resolved by this edit by Filpro, who cited WP:NOETHNICGALLERIES. I'm not sure how the WP:Consensus from that discussion will hold up, given that we still have such galleries at the Man and Woman articles, etc., which are just as subjective, but it's the WP:Consensus for now. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:40, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

WP:RfC

I created this subsection so that it's very clear that a related WP:RfC has resulted from this discussion: Talk:Mariah Carey#RfC: Are "African American" categories supported by sources and policy?. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:01, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Michael Jackson

Please add the king of pop to the infobox. What other African-American (or any American artist for that matter) has gone certified double diamond? Obviously, there are a finite number of spaces but let's start from most notable. Savvyjack23 (talk) 23:56, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I WP:BOLDly did so, since it seems like a no-brainer, and has the additional benefit of mooting the dispute in the thread above this one.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:07, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

And just self-reverted that change, per dispute above.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  21:05, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Including Michael Jackson remains a spot-on idea, IMO, the above wrangling over Carey notwithstanding. Space should be made for him as one of the most influential African Americans in history, and globally, whether anyone in particular thinks that pop culture figures get too much attention generally. I do - I'd love to AfD hundred of "been in one TV show or movie" actors – and I don't much care for Jackson's work on my own iPod, but it's unquestionable what a Beatles-level influence he had. He's a no-brainer.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  04:36, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

If Mariah Carey is too controversial, Michael Jackson (or perhaps Beyonce) would indeed seem the most logical alternative. Soupforone (talk) 03:12, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

AA=black african, not necessarily sub-saharan African

As both RS cited after the definition in the lede indicate, AA=black American of African descent. Neither RS says that all black/African Americans are of sub-saharan African descent. By insisting on changing the definition from black to sub-Saharan, we are deviating from RS.

The federal definitions are qualified for a reason. Some Americans of African descent--who are perceived to be and identify as black--are technically North Africans (e.g., from Northern Sudan, Somalia, or Nubia). But they are considered African Americans if they identify that way, since they're perceived as black.

(Note that "blackness" is of course a socially constructed concept that lacks biological integrity. Nonetheless, the concept still refers to a real social phenomenon.) Steeletrap (talk) 22:50, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

All of the Afro-Asiatic-speaking countries in the northern hemisphere of Africa, from the Maghreb to the Nile Valley and Horn, have a mixture of different ancestral stocks. Through cultural inheritance, they are Arab Americans. The Iberomaurusians were, for example, dark-skinned, but genetically they were closely related to Cro-Magnons (who were also dark-skinned). As regards African Americans, they are mainly of West African descent, notwithstanding their European or Native American ancestry. The other uslegal link explains that they are Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry; this is certainly less ambiguous than "black". Mariah Carey probably has less such ancestry than some Middle Easterners. Nonetheless, she is partially African American because her father was African American. Soupforone (talk) 02:46, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

We go off of WP:RS. The Census RS says black. The uslegal link says black, and also says "the term is generally used for Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry." The use of the term "generally" implies that there are exceptions: the exceptions include those I mentioned above (some Somalis, Nubians, and nothern sudanese). Steeletrap (talk) 08:57, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

to be clear: I'm not saying that all Americans of African descent (e.g. North Africans) are AA; clearly they're not. I am merely saying that all Americans who are from ethnic groups perceived as "black," including some groups who are not of sub-Saharan African descent, are AA. This is supported by the RS. Steeletrap (talk) 09:05, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Steeletrap, regarding this edit that traded "native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa" and "any of the black racial groups of Africa," you addressed this matter more than once at this talk page, and it seemed that WP:Consensus consistently decided to keep the "native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa" wording. Per WP:FORUMSHOP, I don't think you should keep bringing this matter up every few months. I haven't seen you go to different forums about this, but you are repeatedly bringing this topic up. That stated, I'll leave the matter up to others. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:15, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

WP:Con cannot override WP:RS. Steeletrap (talk) 19:25, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, the matter is a bit more nuanced. The other uslegal link explains that African Americans have at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry because of folks like Mariah Carey, Rashida Jones and Nicole Richie, who, though not "black" in the traditional negro sense, are nevertheless African American since one of their respective parents is/was African American. Black only recently gave way to negro in usage (they mean the same thing), and the other groups you mention were generally not regarded as negro in the traditional literature (see for example Theodore Roosevelt on the "non-negro" peoples he encountered [1]). They are now more readily considered Arab American, and this is written into their respective national constitutions too. They are also part of the census organization's strata for its new MENA entry (on page 60 [2]). Soupforone (talk) 03:07, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I have Nubian nieces and nephews. They identify and are perceived as black, even though they're not of sub-Saharan African ancestry.

I've tried to introduce a compromise version that's true to the RS, which says "generally" from Sub-saharan Africa. Steeletrap (talk) 03:42, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Alright, got the family anecdote. Anyway, to your point there about Sub-Saharan it would appear that the census bureau doesn't equate Sub-Saharan with black since some MENA groups inhabit the margins of the region, whereas Afro-Caribbeans and African Americans do not nor do Negrito and related populations. The link above is to the latest official stratification, and it has Sudanese among the new MENA strata. Also note that the census bureau arrived at this at the behest of MENA organizations and expert groups [3]. Soupforone (talk) 03:40, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

You removed the "in the United States, African American is 'generally used for Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry.'" part, but a quote for the second reference in the lead still states "African Americans are citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa. In the United States, the terms are generally used for Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry." To me, it seems relevant that we mention the "In the United States" part, considering this is the African Americans article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:10, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, United States is important and is already noted in parentheses ("an ethnic group of Americans (citizens or residents of the United States)"). There is no need to duplicate it in the same sentence. Soupforone (talk) 02:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I was not suggesting any duplication; my point was that since this article mostly concerns the United States, how the term is generally defined in the United States should be in the lead. That is why I noted the "In the United States, the terms are generally used for Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry." part. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:47, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

In other words, I don't see why you removed that part after Steeletrap compromised with you by retaining "Sub-Saharan African" in the lead. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:50, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I understood that. You wrote that it seems relevant to mention the "in the United States" part, and I pointed out that that is already noted in that same link ("...an ethnic group of Americans (citizens or residents of the United States)"). Since a resident of the United States is an actual inhabitant of the territory, the second "in the United States" phrase was unnecessary duplication. Soupforone (talk) 03:45, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

No, I was focused on the "Sub-Saharan African ancestry" part, which is no longer in the lead. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Alright, it was just that you indicated that "it seems relevant that we mention the "In the United States" part, considering this is the African Americans article". Anyway, as I explained the US government does not after all necessarily equate Sub-Saharan with black. See for example here. African Americans and Afro-Carribeans are not Sub-Saharan. Soupforone (talk) 04:05, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

"Not necessarily" is not the point, though. The point is that we have a WP:Reliable source stating "generally," as in "the terms are generally used for Americans with at least partial Sub-Saharan African ancestry." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:39, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's not the official government one. Please see the bullet points on page 28. Soupforone (talk) 04:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

"Negro-American"

Soupforone, regarding this edit you made, why do you think we should include "Negro-American" in the lead, given what is noted in the "Terms no longer in common use" section of the article? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:12, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Negro was an official entry on the last census, and is still used by some African American organizations such as the National Council of Negro Women. It is antiquated like Afro-American, but not quite obsolete. It was also the historical name for the population. Soupforone (talk) 03:12, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

That it is barely used and is considered offensive is why I see no need for it in the lead. "Afro-American" is more accepted, so I haven't questioned that. "Negro-American" was removed from the lead before. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

I see DD2K reverted you with this edit. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:57, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Yea, I agree, that doesn't belong in the lede. Dave Dial (talk) 06:08, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Flyer22, I'm not sure what that words-as-words policy link is supposed to indicate, but Negro American redirects here. WP:LEDE also notes that "when the page title is used as the subject of the first sentence, it may appear in a slightly different form, and it may include variations, including synonyms". Negro American is a synonym for African American according to the US government, so it does belong there per the lede policy. Anyway, I understand and do agree with your point about derogatory terms. Just as long as it is understood that Negro American is indeed a synonym for African American (and was the original legal name for the population), I'm okay if it's just "Afro-American". Soupforone (talk) 03:55, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I am aware of the WP:Alternative name policy, but that policy doesn't mean that we have to include all alternative names in the lead; its emphasis is on the most significant ones, and it suggests including a section for the matter when there are more than three. This article does that. I don't see the need for that outdated, or mostly outdated, term to be in the lead in this case. Also see the WP:Offensive material guideline. I don't see any benefit to including that alternative name in the lead. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 04:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The original and longest-serving legal name for the population is certainly significant. I do, though, agree with avoiding labels that may be perceived as offensive, especially outside labels. Like I wrote, I'm okay if it's just "Afro-American". Soupforone (talk) 04:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Scientists left out of image box

Why are there no African-American scientists or inventors featured in the image box at the top of the page? There's no sign of George Washington Carver, or Elijah McCoy, or Neil deGrasse Tyson, all prominent and influential in their fields. Tyson's picture is stuck way down in the section on "education", as if his educational attainment were more noteworthy than his professional accomplishments. This mystifies me. —Coconutporkpie (talk) 21:11, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

A side note: if there's only going to be one representative of African Americans in the film industry featured in the image box, why Denzel Washington and not Spike Lee? —Coconutporkpie (talk) 21:27, 3 January 2016 (UTC)