Talk:Historicity of Jesus

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Style

This page doesn't read like an encyclopedia entry, but more like a defense of a viewpoint that is so vociferous it exposes an insecurity of the viewpoint's proponents The lady doth protest too much, methinks. Tedweverka (talk) 16:15, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm not a Christian. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 17:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Tedweverka, I think you'll find most articles debunking fringe theories to be rather clear in doing that. As a reminder, WP is not about finding middle ground but to represent sources accurately. Jeppiz (talk) 23:24, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

The sources in this article are sloppy at the very least. For instance the reference to Ehrman 2012b leads nowhere. 89.241.218.108 (talk) 11:03, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

not only that, but the continued reference to scholars claiming that no one disagrees with them is secondary characterisations, whereas the article should focus more on primary sourcing in general. I can try to add some of the citations and arguments from David Fitzgerald's book if people want. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.44.216.58 (talk) 18:26, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Seems to me, we have a chicken-and-egg question to address here. How many of these “mainstream” scholars would hold the positions they do, many in seminaries, positions which give them the imprimatur “authority” would have been hired, let along been granted tenure, had they been known to be open to the idea of honestly questioning the historicity of Jesus? Greeseyparrot (talk) 03:56, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Entirely, what in particular is going on with the rambling near-essay long citation notes for their body? 149.86.7.57 (talk) 01:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

...it exposes an insecurity of the viewpoint's proponents
— User:Tedweverka

And an insecurity of their own viewpoint, since this article cites no modern peer reviewed monograph on the defense of the the historicity of Jesus published in a respected academic press. This article also conflates:

• Historicists who argue that Jesus b. Joseph/Pantera was a historical personage
and
• Biblicists who argue that the literary protagonist (sc. Jesus) of the gospel series (a debated genre of “historical bios” v. “historical fiction”) was inspired by a real historical person in the same manner as was Popeye, Sherlock Holmes, Santa Claus, etc..
--2db (talk) 00:32, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

"the gospel series" Not a series, and not intended by the authors to serve as one. They are multiple, contradictory accounts on the life of the same character. Expressing different viewpoints, and likely written for different audiences. The stories are completely devoid of realism. Dimadick (talk) 15:23, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

By series, I mean the series of redactions and embellishments of the original (Euangélion katà Mârkon) with the caveat that the last Euangélion katà Iōánnēn is new fan fiction of the previous redactions and the original. --2db (talk) 13:00, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, but this style also makes reading these Jesus historicity pages on wikipedia quite funny and intriguing. Before I visited these pages, I thought there really was some reason to believe that there was a historical preacher who inspired the New Testament. The defensive tone of the articles was alarming enough to treat the idea with skepsis. As far as I looked at some of the sources and googled for some more, it's not just the Wikipedia articles that unintentionally raise doubt in this manner, but most of the authorative sources seem to suffer from the same problem.

Apparently there's really a near-universal consensus among New Testament scholars, all claiming that parts of these religious texts describe historical events (maybe not so much the miraculous stuff, but at least the historicity of the main protaganist). The main argument for historicity seems to be the mere existence of this consensus amongst themselves (see notes 1 and 2 in the article). The main argument against it seems to be that authors who raise doubts have not had the same kind of specialist education and would thus lack certain qualifications. Yep, "it is striking that virtually everyone who has spent all the years needed to attain these qualifications is convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure". Or is it?

These scholars claim that there's "clear and certain evidence" that "effectively refuted" ideas like "the existence of Jesus cannot be ruled out, but is less probable than non-existence". When the wikipedia article reveals such "evidence", it turns out to be the existence of a handful of non-Christian sources that refer to the inspirator of early Christianity. Apparently it's not that much of a problem that the ostensibly oldest and one of the most-cited of these sources, (Josephus), was presumably written around 93 CE (decades after the gospels had been written and more than half a century after Jesus supposedly lived), with no manuscript surviving from before the 11th century, and no secure reference from before the 4th century. After following some bluelinks on the Josephus writings, you can also find the claim that in general "modern historians have been cautious of taking his writings at face value". Tacitus seems more authentic, mainly because he wrote very negatively about Chrestians, but his passage is dated to circa 116 CE and he didn't mention any source.

Somehow, the tone of these scholars seems very different than that of historians on other subjects, and the tone of the wikipedia articles also differ much from the way the same subject is described in other dictionaries. However, I'm not sure whether I prefer it when Jesus is more casually described as a historical figure, without this hysterical defensive tone. Joortje1 (talk) 10:37, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Scrap "Some scholars estimate that there are about 30 surviving independent sources written by 25 authors who attest to Jesus"?

The sole cited source for this claim is the blog of just one scholar who doesn't refer to any others. Despite Ehrman's expertise, the blog page can hardly be considered a reliable source: the content is far from scholarly (although I'm starting to have some doubts about the standards in this particular field).

How Ehrman counts "something like twenty-five authors" or the later mentioned "thirty or so independent sources" remains extremely vague. These two claims were probably not intended to mean "30 surviving independent sources written by 25 authors", as wikipedia authors have worded their intepretation (on several pages). The claims are probably nothing more than one rough estimate that increased for its second incarnation. Apart form 16 sources in the New Testament, Ehrman only mentions the Christian texts First Epistle of Clement and Didache. Apparently he just couldn't be bothered to mention any of the missing circa 7 to 12 sources (or he counts the supposedly compiled text of Didache as 7 to 12 sources).

The purported independence of these 25 or 30 or so remains unexplained, at least not with any clear evidence or references to any studies.

On the other hand, the similarities between the three synoptic Gospels are "widely attributed to literary interdependence" (according to the relevant wikipedia article), and the author of the Gospel of John is thought to have known the gospels of Mark and Luke. If there are any reasons to think otherwise or to believe the authors of other sources were unaware of previous writings, Ehrman doesn't reveal them on the cited blog page. Maybe his claims about independent sources should be regarded as a fringe theory? Joortje1 (talk) 16:12, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I've adapted the line somewhat, in response to your concerns. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 03:42, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Slightly better, except for the introduction of a spelling mistake. At least you turned it into a true quote that complies to Wikipedia's guidelines.

However, it still seems like a worthless statement, from an extremely shoddy blog page. Apart from wide consensus on interdependence of several of the sources he counts, isn't 9 to 16 non-NT independent sources a low estimate? Or is this supposed to concern only those from a limited timeframe? Joortje1 (talk) 16:50, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Source makes such explicit claims in bold letters "By my count that’s something like twenty-five authors, not counting the authors of the sources" and "if we’re talking about thirty or so independent sources that know there was a man Jesus". Ramos1990 (talk) 07:59, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

What's your point? I did already refer to those quotes. Do you ever read what you're replying to with any attention and comprehension? I suppose you're not suggesting that the article should also use bold letters?Joortje1 (talk) 16:59, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Why so much "Historical Jesus" and so little "Christ myth theory"?

Besides style and dubious scholarly consensus claims, the bias in this article is also quite clear from the fact that the Christ myth theory gets only 6 lines (of which a third is used to marginalize it, of course), while a remarkably large portion of the article discusses supposed historical biographical details (emphasizing the degree of consensus among scholars about such details, of course). The talk page FAQ nonetheless clearly states that the article is supposed to discuss the yes/no question about the "existence of Jesus as a historical figure, not what he did and taught", which is also more or less what the lede claims (some lines function as a referral to pages with related subjects outside the scope of the page). I propose to reduce the "Historical Jesus" and "Quest for the historical Jesus" sections to bluelinks in the "see also" section. Joortje1 (talk) 07:09, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Christ myth theory is low in relevance to this article's scope since this article is not about scholars responses to CMT nor is it about CMT. Arguments for Jesus existing stand alone because most scholars address historical details of Jesus. Also since CMT is a fringe theory, it does not carry much weight as it is not even a minority view in scholarship - virtually no one holds this view. Just like "flat earth" is not really mentioned in Earth's circumference article, it does not deserve much mention here either.

For more adequate treatment of historicist responses to CMT see the Christ Myth Theory article. It has detailed historicist/mythicist back and forth sections there.

"Historical Jesus" and "Quest for the historical Jesus" are more relevant to this article's scope and are shorter versions of the original parent article/section in blue link. Perhaps some trimming on the "historical Jesus" section can be done, but I think it is pretty short overall. Ramos1990 (talk) 08:18, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

So, you don't agree with the intended scope of the article as stated in the FAQ (and in the lede)?

If it's basically about a "yes/no" question, I really think some more info about some "no" arguments would make sense. I'm getting tired of discussing the consensus (or is it bias?) of scholars who made a career of studying NT texts and related sources. The article already seems too full of that, to the point that readers have to make an effort to find the actual "yes" arguments between claims of near-universal consensus and the opinions of individual biblical scholars. Are you really sure the article (in its current state) is "not about scholars responses to CMT"?

I'd understand an argument saying that it would be valid to include biographical details because they are part of scholarly arguments, but you seem to claim the opposite ("Arguments for Jesus existing stand alone"). In a large part of the article, the biographical elements indeed seem to stand alone. Only a few are truly used as "yes" arguments, almost drowned out by opinions of a few biblical scholars and claims about consensus (again). Joortje1 (talk) 11:24, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

The FAQ does not mention CMT nor does it say that this is a response article to it. It says it answers questions like "Did Jesus walk the streets of Jerusalem?". The greater details are found in the "Historical Jesus" article, like the FAQ says. I take it to mean that this article answers what scholar believe in terms of existence and the historical evidence in terms of outline of biographical elements that they consider to be historical (eg baptism, crucifixion's, and general biographical outline). When talking about existence, you have to latch on to events, people, places, etc and so there is an inevitable overlap between historicity of Jesus and historical Jesus. The same is true about the historicity of Socrates (look up "Socratic Problem") or Pythagoras. Ramos1990 (talk) 16:50, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I'll try to explain it once more:

The first statement in the FAQ is: "This article discusses the very basic issue of 'existence of Jesus as a historical figure', not what he did and taught." Further on it states "Historicity is largely a yes/no question".

CMT definitely represents the "no"-side of that question.

Apart from the John P. Meier criterion of embarrassment argument, nothing in the "Historical Jesus" and "Quest" sections does anything else than discuss "what he did and taught". Joortje1 (talk) 19:10, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Like I mentioned, historicity is linked to people, places, and events. It is not some philosophical question isolated from historical data. If historians can piece some of the parts of Jesus life, then he is historical. Keep in mind that his historicity is not questioned in the sources and scholars are not replying to mythicists when they do their historical research. So this article includes historical Jesus details like events (crucified, baptized, etc) not just declaration by scholars that he was historical. These are things that happened to him. The harder focus on the historical details - who he was, what he did or taught are in the Historical Jesus article. This one overlaps a bit and mentions what the sources report of his life that is historically accepted by scholars - broadly speaking. Again there is overlap. Ramos1990 (talk) 19:27, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Like I mentioned, inclusion of biographical elements makes sense if they are used for argumentation. Can you point out any argument for or against the existence of a historical J in the HJ and the QfthJ sections of the article, other then the Meier/ embarassment criterion bit? Joortje1 (talk) 16:26, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Scholars of antiquity?

Are there any relevant scholarly sources written by historians who first studied the cultural context and then took a thorough (unbiased) look at the historicity question? That seems implied by the term "scholars of antiquity", used multiple times in the article, yet most –if not all– of the cited authors in this article seem to be biblical scholars (who basically start studying religious texts and then look for similarities and dissimilarities in historical knowledge).

Do they maybe draw different conclusions, or do they at least approach the question with a bit more nuance?

In any case, if only biblical scholars are cited for the purported consensus among "scholars of antiquity", I think the claim should reflect that, even if some biblical scholar have made claims that included this specific term (or are these claims backed up with reliable surveys with proper attention to this difference?). Joortje1 (talk) 12:11, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

This terminology is not invented by wikieditors. It is in Bart Ehrman's "Forged: Writing in the Name of God" ISBN 978-0-06-207863-6. pp. 256–257. He says "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees, based on certain and clear evidence." We go by what the sources say. We do not have to create an argument from multiple sources as that may be WP:SYN. Interestingly there are numerous other sources saying similar things in different ways - see "Note 1" in the article. Here is Larry Hurtado another scholar explaining in more detail the same thing [1]. Hope this helps. Ramos1990 (talk) 17:01, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Did you understand the part where I said "even if some biblical scholars have made claims that included this specific term"?

I read notes 1 and 2; they are among the reasons for some of the criticism that I and others have put forward on the talk pages.

Indeed, numerous other sources said similar things about consensus, so it should be easy to pick some terminology that sounds a bit more credible. Maybe even from a source that actually backs it up?

Indeed, biblical scholar Larry Hurtado explains the same thing in more detail, and basically in the same way. More claims of overwhelming consensus that are not backed up. More rambling rebukes of rambling myhthicist claims. No lucid arguments for historicity. Not helpful. Joortje1 (talk) 10:54, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

The way this page presented the subject with citations of certain biblical scholars almost had me believe that the whole discipline is exclusively populated by credulous pigheaded individuals. But fortunately it's not just outsiders who question the dubious methods that many of the scholars have been accustomed to. See for instance the book "Jesus, Criteria, and the Demise of Authenticity". A summarizing review on Themelios concludes: "Anyone invested in historical Jesus research must come to terms with the arguments put forth in this book. The authors have raised serious questions regarding the way historical Jesus research has been done, and they show that the commonly accepted tools have largely failed to deliver what they promised. This book is an important starting point for progressing in what some feel is a stalled discipline."Joortje1 (talk) 13:52, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

It seems the issue you have is what scholars have said rather than what we are bound by in wikipedia. As you mentioned ...biblical scholar Larry Hurtado explains the same thing in more detail, and basically in the same way. More claims of overwhelming consensus that are not backed up. More rambling rebukes of rambling myhthicist claims. No lucid arguments for historicity."

Every wikieditor has an opinion on what any source says. But we are not here to push our views over what established scholars or sources say. We go by what reliable sources say. Even mythicists admit that the consensus is that Jesus existed (Robert Price, G.A. Wells (formerly mythicist), etc). See note 1 and note 2. If you wish to read more on it, read some of the sources cited there - and of course they back up their claims. The issue seems to be that their arguments are not convincing to you perhaps. But keep in mind that mythicist arguments fail to convince them too. Ramos1990 (talk) 18:38, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

The main issue I have concerns the tone and general quality of this article (see above: "Style", and some of the other entries). When looking at the citations in notes 1 and 2 and some of the available cited sources, this seems to be a problem that's inherent in biblical scholars. No wonder Price noted “consensus is no criterion". In the Ehrman quote (double cited in the lede), he sounds more like Donald Trump than like a scholar, and what I've read of his blog (cited on the page) was extremely shoddy.

"The issue seems to be that their arguments are not convincing to you perhaps." I'm quite sure I'm not the only one who's not convinced. Yet, I'm still quite open-minded about the issue and suppose that some proper scholarly arguments can be found, somewhere. Unfortunately, the current quality of the article (as well as that of your replies) make it likely that many readers with even the slightest talent for critical thinking will be even less convinced after visiting these pages.

"But keep in mind that mythicist arguments fail to convince them too." Yeah, those biblical scholars have made that abundantly clear, no need to repeat it. I've yet to have a proper look into the mythicist arguments and their sources. For some reason, these are not represented on this page (could it be that some wikipedians are pushing their views after all?)

"of course they back up their claims". Good, can you direct me towards a source that includes a scholarly basis for claims about near-universal consensus among scholars of antiquity. Keep in mind that "scholars of antiquity" is not the same as a selection of biblical scholars. Joortje1 (talk) 10:15, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

See Q3 in the FAQ and expand "List of books on non-historicity of Jesus" and also see Q7 on the FAQ and expand "Quotes on the historicity of Jesus". The consensus views are repeated in dozens of books there including those by mythicists acknowledging the consensus against them. We go by what the majority of sources state, not an assessment of a topic by random wikieditors. As can be seen from Q3, mythicism in general sufferers from a lack of academics and self-publishing. Keep in mind WP:NOTFORUM and WP:NOTESSAY. Ramos1990 (talk) 23:55, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

This is not the assesment of a topic by "random wikieditors". If you check what I wrote, you'll find refererences to reliable sources in which eleven biblical scholars express very similar doubts about the traditional methods of many of their colleagues.

Please note the Wikipedia Talk page guidelines: "The talk page is the ideal place for issues relating to verification, such as asking for help finding sources, (...) and examining the reliability of references."

No need to refer to WP:NOTFORUM and WP:NOTESSAY. No reason to discredit mythicism (I'm not a mythicist and this post was not about mythicism). Please keep in mind that your comments can easily be interpreted as attempts to enforce a non-neutral POV by discouraging others through WP:GAME tactics, and that this can have a polarising effect (my apologies for any responses that may therefore have been a bit too cynical, impatient or too sharp).

If you don't know any sources of the type asked for, please just don't respond. Joortje1 (talk) 11:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ramos1990, two questions I would like you to answer:

"We go by what the majority of sources state"

I suppose you believe this to be a very important rule. Can you please refer to the specific wikipedia guideline?

For a remarkable amount of statements, this article relies on individual opinions of biblical scholars (just one per statement). Isn't this the opposite of "We go by what the majority of sources state"? Joortje1 (talk) 10:42, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I was referring to consensus view that Jesus existed, if you look at my comment. See FAQ Q6. I was paraphrasing it a bit. It mentions guideline and provides context on the matter in the last sentence. The conclusion, at bare minimum, is the same, but every scholar’s reasoning for reaching such a conclusion may differ, obviously. Ramos1990 (talk) 15:23, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah, sorry to have misinterpreted that.

Interesting how Q6 states "[we should] quote a scholar who states what the "academic consensus" may be"

("may be" indeed)

The actual WP:RS/AC guideline instead gives this advice: "Review articles, especially those printed in academic review journals that survey the literature, can help clarify academic consensus."

Quite the difference. The article could thus be improved by following the guideline [edit: I meant the quoted guideline advice]. Too satisfy more critical readers, it would be best if a citation can be found in journals that don't specialize in biblical studies, so that claims about "Virtually all scholars of antiquity" or "nearly all historians" ring more true. Joortje1 (talk) 20:08, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

The guideline says simply "A statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Reliable academic sources are already in the article for such claims. Q5 of the FAQ shows the diversity of scholars from various backgrounds and training on the matter. It certainly is not a club of fundamentalists or just biblical scholars. For example, consensus views are stated by Greco-Roman historians like Michael Grant, who is an atheist by the way, and ex-mythicists like G.A Wells. For example here is Grant: "To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ-myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first-rank scholars'. In recent years 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus'—or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." (Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels (New York: Scribner, 1995) p. 200)

Ironically, there are surveys of mythicism too such as those of Bart Ehrman and Maurice Casey which show that mythicists often come from non-scholarly backgrounds, and of the few that are academic - they are usually biblical scholars like Robert Price or Thomas Thompson for example. They note that pretty much all mythicists are atheists who have anti-Christian agendas. Ramos1990 (talk) 01:09, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

So, an answer to the question that started this post could simply have been:

Michael Grant "Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels" (1977)

Outdated and possibly more popularising than academic, but my sincere thanks nonetheless.

Any more? Joortje1 (talk) 08:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

FAQ [2] "Quotes on the historicity of Jesus" has a grip of academic sources. Status has not changed to the present. Ramos1990 (talk) 09:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. I had another look at that list.

Virtually all of the bluelinked names were identified as NT scholars or biblical scholars on Wikipedia. We thus have no problem believing that many biblical scholars agree on historicism.

I think I found 2 "modern" historicist quotes from people who can arguably be identified as historians; 1 deceased (over 10 years ago), the other a 83-year old retired scholar who has always been a devout Christian. Did I miss any?

Don't you agree that it's not very factual to claim something like academic consensus among "scholars of antiquity" without a WP:RS from a non-Christian person who actually studied history? Joortje1 (talk) 13:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

FAQ Q2 and Q5 addresses this - "Moreover, Wikipedia policies do not prohibit Jewish scholars as sources on the history of Judaism, Buddhist scholars as sources on Buddhism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.".

Considering that even the few credentialed mythicists that exist tend to be biblical scholars too (Q3 on FAQ), I don't see why being a biblical scholar would even be an issue. The backgrounds of any "biblical scholars" makes them experts in history and other stuff, if you look into it. They are trained in numerous fields (e.g. Archaeology, Egyptology, Assyriology, Textual Criticism, Linguistics, History, etc.) Also, Q5 details that there are scholars that are Jews, Muslims, atheists, and agnostics and they all pretty much agree on historicity. See Stanton on note 1 and Van Voorst on note 2. I already mentioned Ehrman, Grant, Wells, Hurtado too. They make the claims. They are all qualified experts on these matters and they do not limit it to “biblical scholars”. No source has been presented claiming that scholars who study antiquity even deny Jesus’ existence in any mainstream sense. Instead per FAQ Q3 most Jesus denial scholars are lawyers, attorneys, accountants, land surveyor, film maker, philosophers, etc. Not scholars of antiquity. Ramos1990 (talk) 02:22, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

(Let's save the problems of expertise and potential bias for their own topics)

Please allow me to illustrate the issue at hand with a silly parable:

Apples are fruit.

Bananas are fruit.

Dozens of tomatoes and 2 kiwi’s declare: “Virtually all fruit agrees that circa 2000 years ago ..." (et cetera)

The most factual way to describe this situation: "Many tomatoes have claimed that virtually all fruit agrees that..." Unfortunately, many critical readers will notice a red flag signalling that the tomatoes’ claim is very problematic (if no further evidence is provided).

It thus seems better to say: "All tomatoes agree that...". Paraphrasing a factual statement in clear and specific terminology –with WP:RS that back up the fact– is preferable over blindly quoting (purported) experts.

WP:PARAPHRASE (WP:REPUTABLE: “Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process.”) WP:RSCONTEXT

Another option is to look for sufficient, reliable citations of the other types of fruit. Joortje1 (talk) 14:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

I have seen this wording “The mainstream scholarly consensus is that Jesus existed.” I think this would work. And is short and simple. No sources have been presented stating the opposite or splitting headcount like you have done. Ramos1990 (talk) 18:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

That would be a great improvement. My sincere thanks for your patience, understanding and for offering this suggestion!

I'd still prefer if the text would (immedetiately) clarify that this topic is considered to be the expertise of biblical scholars (rather than historians), but we could clarify that in some explanation about the methods used (for instance in a section that seems to be promised by the article's section title "Modern scholarship". There are also already a few lines on this spread throughout the text (for instance in the "Quest" section).

It's unfortunate that so few historians have commented on the topic, so we'll have to make do with what we've got.

I may be able to present a few WP:RS that state something opposite, but I will skip those for now. There is Ehrman's quote: "I would say that most biblical scholars in fact are not historians. But some are." Non-scholarly blog posts may do for personal opinions, but I don't think this quote or anything like it is very useful for the page. It's still a good one to keep in mind, considering my argument and apparent confusion about it.

Given some other reactions, I'd better not edit the page any time soon and leave it to you or others to see whether the suggested change actually gets through. Joortje1 (talk) 12:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Hmmm..I am afraid you are are the only one that keeps on thinking that they are only "biblically scholars" (and that somehow they are lower quality scholars) and thinking in a "biblical scholars" vs "historians" mentality as if there are any actual different opinions on this. You have yet to provide a source that says what you are saying.

The quotes from numerous sources generalize to "competent scholar of antiquity" - Ehrman, "all historians" - Stanton, "secular scholars" - Wells, "serious scholar " - Grant, "Biblical scholars and classical historians" - Van Voorst, etc. They do not say only biblical scholars believe this.

Even the link on Ehrman you mentioned, he states "But just as some biblical scholars are particularly adept at literary criticism or at philosophical enquiry, others are expert in history. And I’m one of those."

Now that you know Ehrman is an expert in history, see what he says on his field "Serious historians of the early Christian movement—all of them—have spent many years preparing to be experts in their field. Just to read the ancient sources requires expertise in a range of ancient languages: Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and often Aramaic, Syriac, and Coptic, not to mention the modern languages of scholarship (for example, German and French). And that is just for starters. Expertise requires years of patiently examining ancient texts and a thorough grounding in the history and culture of Greek and Roman antiquity, the religions of the ancient Mediterranean world, both pagan and Jewish, knowledge of the history of the Christian church and the development of its social life and theology, and, well, lots of other things. It is striking that virtually everyone who has spent all the years needed to attain these qualifications is convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure." (Forged: Writing in the Name of God)

It is very clear that he is not saying only "biblical scholars". None of the other experts sources say that exclusivist stuff either. Not even the mythicists. If there were academic sources saying stuff like "many or a good chunk of historians doubt Jesus existed", don't you think that mythicists would capitalize on that? Also, at that point you would not have mythicism being a fringe theory like it is today. Just look at the state of mythicism with this self-published collection of numerous mythicists "Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist?" Only like one has credentials on antiquity, Robert Price as usual.

You cannot limit consensus to mainly "biblical scholars" when 1) no source does so and 2) mythicism has such an abundance unacademic proponents and such scarcity of academic proponents.

I will just say that, overall, it just looks like you are constantly imposing your beliefs on the status of scholarship on historicity of Jesus, when the sources by actual experts are stating it differently. As far I can tell, you did not present any sources supporting your particular view of 'consensus is mainly biblical scholars'. Even the book you mentioned earlier on "Jesus, Criteria, and the Demise of Authenticity" never argued this. That book pertained only to "criteria of authenticity" which is only one set of tools used by scholars. There are many other tools they use besides this.

Just as a freebee, there are collections on Socratic scholarship such as "Socrates: An Annotated Bibliography" which has a section of a grip of academic sources on Jesus and Socrates - none of them argue Jesus did not exist. So you have a good sample from Socratic scholars, not denying Jesus existed. No surprise there. Ramos1990 (talk) 14:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I believe your reply is disingenuous and insulting towards Joortje1 who is going out of his way to find a happy medium. You say he is "the only one that keeps on thinking that they are only "biblically scholars" (and that somehow they are lower quality scholars) and thinking in a "biblical scholars" vs "historians" mentality as if there are any actual different opinions on this." Well I feel similarly to him so his is definitely not an outlier opinion. You claim that biblical scholars have no less respect than historians, so it seems everyone should be happy to use that term. Cutelyaware (talk) 04:19, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia—a tertiary source—and as far as Wikipedia is concerned, the question of what to say about historicity is a completed settled question. Note that this does not mean that Jesus' historicity is true (or false), merely that the proportion of reliable sources writing about the topic are overwhelmingly in support of Jesus' historicity. While one may disagree about the first point (actual historicity) it's impossible to disagree about the second.

Here, for example, is Bart Ehrman on the views of mythicists:

"These views are so extreme and so unconvincing to 99.99% of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land one in a bona fide department of biology."

The views of mythicists are fringe views, not taken seriously by actual scholars; the views of reliable sources are massively in agreement about the historicity of Jesus. Wikipedia takes no position on whether Jesus existed or not; we summarize what the reliable sources say, and the results are in: Jesus existed.

Your fruit argument fails, in the difference between WP:INTEXT, which does indeed require attribution for certain views, but only when they are of biased sources or minority views, and WP:WikiVoice, where we state the majority view *without* intext attribution (and with footnotes, of course). So, no: we do not have to say that "Many tomatoes have claimed that...", we merely state in the article, "Jesus existed", full stop (in whatever words are agreed upon). There is no need to say, "Most scholars say Jesus existed", because it is the overwhelmingly view of scholars. (There is no prohibition from saying it, either, especially when the topic itself is, "What do scholars say about the existence of Jesus", where the longer version is directly relevant to the topic.)

There is no need to "look for sufficient, reliable citations of the other types of fruit", and in fact, this runs contrary to WP:CHERRYPICKING and would render the results of your search inadmissible in the article. Because of the vast amount of material on the topic of the historicity of Jesus, if you search for a particular result that pleases you, you will probably find it, but that doesn't mean you can add it to the article, even if they are reliable sources, because it would be contrary to WP:DUEWEIGHT. It is this last principle, WP:DUEWEIGHT, that governs this whole question, because *even* if you find a dozen (or a hundred) reliable sources for your point, they are dwarfed by the near-totality of reliable sources (99.99%, per Ehrman) that say the opposite. (This is also the answer to your question about "I suppose you believe this to be a very important rule", and it is not a "guideline", but policy.)

If you don't doubt that the overwhelming majority of sources say this, then we're done, because that's what we do, here: we summarize the views of the majority of sources, right, wrong, or in-between. If you do doubt it, then because the literature is so vast, it's impossible to tote it all up here and count the ones on each side—the Talk page would end up listing thousands of sources. What we do in cases like that, is to use WP:TERTIARY sources as a proxy for what WP:SECONDARY sources say: i.e., encyclopedias, college textbooks, and so on. If you actually do this, I think you will find that 100% of tertiary sources are in agreement on the question, without even mentioning the opposing, fringe view at all. Let me know if you find a single tertiary source that disagrees.

So, with reference to your original question, "Do [scholars of antiquity] maybe draw different conclusions?", we have the answer as far as Wikipedia is concerned, and it is what Ramos1990 said in response to your OP: "[Jesus] certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees, based on certain and clear evidence." That sums it up, and no amount of cherry-picking is going to change that, therefore that is what Wikipedia must say. (edit conflict) Mathglot (talk) 18:54, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out these concerns. Especially the WP:TERTIARY remark in relation to WP:DUEWEIGHT.

I'm very sorry, but I don't understand how looking for a source by an objective historian can be considered WP:CHERRYPICKING and how this would be a problem for WP:DUEWEIGHT. Did you maybe think the bananas or apples from the parable represented mythicists? My apologies if this was confusing. I'm glad Ramos1990 got the point. Don't you think critical readers would appreciate the addition of the opinion of a historian?

I understand the concerns about fringe theories and WP:RS. I even think I still slightly lean to the pro-historicity side personally, but that shouldn't influence the collaborative effort here. If you're a bit sensitive to it, the polarising effect starts immediately in the lead section of the article and just doesn't seem to stop. On the talk page, it's probably mainly miscommunication, and I could have been much more tactful myself, but it sure feels like you're the enemy if you are not impressed by the promised "certain and clear evidence", and/or the style/tone/quality of the page (and, for me at least, especially the disdain towards people who seem to think differently).

I believe Tom Dykstra (in a review of Ehrman and Brodie) adressed many of the problems quite clearly, with proper NPOV, and in a scholarly tone.

His conclusion (p.30): "To a degree greater than that in many other academic fields, you have to take pronouncements of fact by biblical scholars with a grain of salt. And those who express the most confidence in historical reconstructions or the sharpest disdain toward contrary opinions are precisely the ones to be most wary about. The truth is elusive and can best be approached by reading multiple viewpoints, judging the evidence critically, and remembering that ultimately all biblical history is a matter of highly debatable possibilities and probabilities."

Note that this is a historian specializing in origins of christianity (Ph.D., History. University of Washington) publishing in the Journal of the Orthodox Center for the Advancement of Biblical Studies (in 2014). Such quotes are not exactly stuff that's useful on the page, but clearly subscribe to my argument here.

My apologies for being too engrossed in my search for more opinions of historians (preferably with a PH.D. in that particular discipline, other than Carrier) to bring up this source earlier.

I even overlooked this: "The consensus of biblical scholars is that Jesus existed as a historical person, and those who assign him to the category of fictional character are still few and far between. Their ranks are growing, but their views are met with disdain by the majority." (cp. 30)

Note that Dykstra (a historian) was careful enough to specify which scholars we are talking about. So, I'd love to see him quoted (I'll understand if others don't like the growing ranks and disdain bit, and "still few and far between" is not really an encyclopedic tone). Please consider the relatively recent date, the very specific credentials, and the WP:RS/AC advice: "Review articles, especially those printed in academic review journals that survey the literature, can help clarify academic consensus" (also note that Ehrman may be a great biblical scholar, who considers himself an expert historian, but that "Did Jesus Exist" nonetheless is published by HarperOne and should probably be considered a popular book, rather than a scholarly work). Joortje1 (talk) 16:13, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Just noting that Dykstra says "A sea change in scholarly consensus moving in this direction is not likely anytime soon, but some movement has begun. A book like Is this not the Carpenter with well-known and respected scholars contributing to it would have been all but unthinkable just a decade or two earlier. So the tide has changed and it’s reasonable to expect further progress toward the conclusion that we know very little about Jesus, and that any effort at achieving certainty is futile." He was hopeful that scholars will just give up certainty on historical matters on Jesus - which is what the paper is all about. He is not a mythicist however but acknowledges consensus in general is unlikely to be overhauled. This was almost 10 years ago and no progress has been made in that direction. There was some traction in 2010, 2012 - like Dryska said - and climaxed around 2015 with Carrier's work. Certainly there are not many "historians" or historical experts that have embraced his uncertainty camp and even less the mythicist camp, since most scholars are positivist by default.

And the only "historian" to argue for mythicism in the last 100 years was Richard Carrier (according to him). He has not published academic research on this in almost 10 years too and has since published back with small atheist publishers with "Jesus from Outer Space". His reception was that his views are fringe and very questionable. I think that once scholars saw the quality of argumentation for Jesus denialism, this has died down immensely - ergo recent collections of mythicist like "Varieties of Jesus Mythicism: Did He Even Exist?" show the lack of "historians" and historical experts in the mythicist camp to date. Even Carrier (historian) has admitted that only him and Lataster (religious studies) 2019 book (which was a republication of a self-published book which literally rehashed Carrier's arguments) are the only development in the past 10 years on this. Both making no impact in academia. Carrier admits in his review [3] in 2022 of "Varieties of Jesus Mythicism" that "I am also the first historian in a hundred years to publish a complete peer-reviewed, academic press argument for the origin and development of Christianity that does not include a historical Jesus. My book, On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt (Sheffield-Phoenix, 2014) was followed by a second mainstream peer-reviewed volume [Lataster (religious studies scholar, not a historian)] by analyzing the debate over Jesus historicity, which also found reason for doubt. Hence, I am sympathetic to arguments against the historicity of Jesus. But I have also been notoriously and relentlessly critical of most such arguments, particularly when their amateurism and gross failures of logic, methodology, or fact (sometimes all three) make the job of real scholars so much harder. It is difficult to have a credible thesis taken seriously when the field is swamped with crankery." and also states "This volume’s lack of any of the peer-reviewed specialists on the subject of historicity (which includes not only myself and Lataster, but Thomas Thompson, Thomas Brodie, and others) is not entirely a defect, as their positions are well-enough represented by some of the contributors it does have, and a valid function of this book can simply be to supplement our work rather than repeat it."

There you go. Carrier, the only "historian" in 100 years for mythicism, lays out the latest few proponents who have actively argued for Jesus denialism and observes the scarcity of "peer-reviewed specialists on the subject of historicity". It is a very very small group indeed still today. Carrier being the only "historian" to argue for it in 100 years is a pretty revealing! Historians like Michael Grant and Paul Johnson have done surveys much more recently than 100 years as have numerous other scholars of antiquity. Carrier is not at the caliber of Michael Grant or even Paul Johnson - both mainstream historians of so many topics that have shed light on numerous non-biblical topics and also surveyed literature on Jesus. Carrier has mainly done self publishing on his works on Jesus, so he does not have much of an academic credibility on this topic like some people tend to believe.

With this information - that Mythicism has 1 historian in 100 years - it seems like requesting consensus of Jesus' existence to be affirmed by sources by "historians" who have a specific PhD in history is pretty silly since what we really need is actual academic scholars who actively argue for mythicism at all. Virtually no academic or credentialed scholars or historians argue for Jesus denialism. Certainly not enough to remove fringe status.

So Dryska's "So the tide has changed" seems to be mostly a dried up beach with some salty moisture. Most scholars take mythicism with a massive grain of salt because after seeing the recent scholarship for it, it does seem like academic crankery. As a side note, Ehrman and Casey are right about that the proponents of mythicism generally have anti-religious agendas - the only historian in 100 years for mythicism fits the bill perfectly. Much better sources are need either way for inclusion on wikipedia. Ramos1990 (talk) 05:50, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ramos1990: I wanted to agree with your earlier suggestion to say "The mainstream scholarly consensus is that Jesus existed," before finding it to carry the opposite problem. Mainstream non-biblical scholars don't argue this, although commonly refer to the era of Jesus—his presumed birth year having been set as a standard of time. (Scholars' specific wording can even betray their level of reverence for Christianity, though less in recent years thanks to CE.)

Biblical scholars agree that Jesus existed, but this can be seen as largely a war between the religious, who defend the supernatural, and the secular, who focus on probable events (baptism and crucifixion) as a way of dismissing fundamentalism (with its dedication to logically impossible miracles). Biblical scholars may vaguely assert wide mainstream support to bolster their own arguments, but this lacks statistical backing. (As such, these claims should always be attributed!)

I'd support the more accurate wording that "The consensus of biblical scholars is that Jesus historically existed," leading to notes and nuanced discussion. UpdateNerd (talk) 07:25, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

The sources do not support your limited wording though. And like I mentioned in the thread, notes 1 and notes 2 state scholarship in broader terms - none limit it to biblical scholars only. They use specific terms like Historians, classical historians, scholars of antiquity, etc. Larry Hurtado expands further [4] to "The overwhelming body of scholars, in New Testament, Christian Origins, Ancient History, Ancient Judaism, Roman-era Religion, Archaeology/History of Roman Judea, and a good many related fields as well, hold that there was a first-century Jewish man known as Jesus of Nazareth, that he engaged in an itinerant preaching/prophetic activity in Galilee, that he drew to himself a band of close followers, and that he was executed by the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate."

Here is Grant a Greco-Roman Historian "To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ-myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first-rank scholars'. In recent years 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus'—or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."

Where do they limit it to only biblical scholars? Where does Grant limit it to biblical scholars? If you don't have a source for the specific claims of only biblical scholars, then there is not much to discuss on the matter any more. The numerous sources already compiled in the notes 1 and 2 and the FAQ show this to be extremely well understood by scholars of all stripes that have studied and have written about the historicity of Jesus. Even the mythicists do not limit it to just biblical scholars as they talk about scholarship in general. In fact, Carrier above has confessed that he is the only ancient historian to address historicity for mythicism in 100 years. You honestly think that this means that mythicism is widespread in scholarship after such and admission?

Like you observed, using limited terms like "biblical scholars" -which is not what the sources are saying - causes unnecessary ambiguity. I agree with you that the term "biblical scholar" leads to more problems as you said "...this can be seen as largely a war between the religious, who defend the supernatural, and the secular, who focus on probable events (baptism and crucifixion)". Do you want to add this type of ambiguity and false tension/dichotomy to the article?

Here is Ehrman, a historian "Serious historians of the early Christian movement—all of them—have spent many years preparing to be experts in their field. Just to read the ancient sources requires expertise in a range of ancient languages: Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and often Aramaic, Syriac, and Coptic, not to mention the modern languages of scholarship (for example, German and French). And that is just for starters. Expertise requires years of patiently examining ancient texts and a thorough grounding in the history and culture of Greek and Roman antiquity, the religions of the ancient Mediterranean world, both pagan and Jewish, knowledge of the history of the Christian church and the development of its social life and theology, and, well, lots of other things. It is striking that virtually everyone who has spent all the years needed to attain these qualifications is convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure."

User:Mathglot and User:Jeppiz have explained it. We go by what the sources say, not wikieditor analysis. The sources are explicit about this.

I must say that this getting very tiring. Asking everyone to provide multiple sources specifically stating what you are arguing and none providing any. Only odd arguments that go against what the sources by experts are saying. Read the FAQ it answers all of these questions about consensus, your statistical backing concerns, provides dozens of sources stating consensus from scholars of all sorts of academic disciplines and personal backgrounds, etc.

My question is why are some of you contradicting what the sources are saying? Without providing sources explicitly saying what you are proposing?

In light of all of this, "The mainstream scholarly consensus" broad enough to capture what the sources are saying - that the scholarship that exists that addresses the historicity of Jesus, agree that he did exist. "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree" would do the same thing, but the "The mainstream scholarly consensus" is more broad, generic, and acceptable for the lead I think. Ramos1990 (talk) 08:23, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

@Ramos1990: we are in agreement, along with the near-totality of sources. It is getting tiring, and will you permit me to suggest to you, that the best response to these endless, baseless comments, is no response? Consensus on this topic is beyond clear, and I will make no further comment in this discussion, and if you do the same, you'll have more time to devote to whatever you enjoy working on. Let them talk to each other; no need for us to waste our valuable time here further. Over, and out. (edit conflict × 2) Mathglot (talk) 08:46, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Oops, I read "The mainstream scholarly consensus" to indicate that all notable scholars accept that Jesus existed. As has been pointed out, it actually only refers to scholars who study the topic. (I was largely confused by our citation of Stanton, who invokes the phrase "nearly all historians".) Moving forward, there could be a greater spotlight on whom the cited scholars are, as well as a summary of their specific reasoning, namely the amplitude of ancients who believed Jesus to exist. UpdateNerd (talk) 05:58, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for this lengthy reply, hopefully it will help to close this discussion down (please consider holding back with new input, especially if it doesn't really pertain to the question at hand).

Thank you, UpdateNerd, for your appreciation of the topic, and for your new input.

Thank you, Ramos 1990, for your extensive personal assessment of trends of doubt about HoJ during the last decade or so. I’d be interested in WP:RS that have looked into this very specific aspect. It seems relevant to the article and has not yet been addressed in the text. If you find any RS, please start a new Topic to discuss them and how to use them in the article (or just start adding the new information and their citations into the article).

Additional thanks, Ramos 1990, for restating your concerns about certain aspects of the topic at hand. I’m very sorry, but I fail to discover any new argument or new WP:RS that we have not already taken into account. (The by now well-known sources in the article and its FAQ seem less WP:REPUTABLE when it concerns objective history than that of Dykstra –see above– and now also Lataster – see below. If not yet pointed out in this discussion (I'm sure I did somewhere on this Talk Page): apart from WP guidelines about looking at dates, reputation of publishers et cetera, there are more or less legal requirements for objectivity in works by historians, as stated on Historian#Objectivity. Dykstra and Lataster point out where Ehrman and many other biblical scholars fail when it comes to such requirements. Early on, I also provided a RS indicating that many biblical scholars believe that the standard methodoloies used in their discipline were dubious or even practically useless). Please consider following Mathglot’s advice.

I did have a short look at that mainstream peer-reviewed volume (Brill Publishers 2019) by Raphael Lataster (a scholar specialised in Analytic Philiosphy of Religion). It is endorsed (see foreword) by biblical scholar professor James Crossley, editor Journal for the study of Historical Jesus. In the introduction, Lataster has this to say about the topic at hand:

“being effectively paradigmatic to the field, it would appear counter-intuitive for [biblical] scholars to seriously ask the question [whetherJesus was a historical person or not], since a negative result would invalidate and nullify much of their life’s work, and their future career prospects.” (p. 3)

“[Specialized Historical Jesus researchers] are generally not suitably equipped to investigate or argue for the higher level issue of Jesus' very existence.” (p. 3)

“(...) most scholars of the New Testament have religious loyalties: they want the text to be orthodox, or historical, or preachable, or relevant.” (p. 1)

“One common criticism [of ahistoricism] is that [ahistoricists] are on the fringes of scholarship. That is irrelevant, and also untrue.” (p. 1)

I didn't expect to find such precise analysis of my concerns in mainstream academic publications, but this is an even more up to date and more reputable source than Dykstra's piece. So we now have 2 relatively recent, very reputable WP:RS, specifically stating the problems about the topic at hand, 1 by a specialised historian and 1 by a highly specialised scholar (Analytic Philosphy of Religion). (I have not yet looked at Carrier's ideas. Sorry, but I don't like his tone very much. I'd say that Dykstra and Lataster will do for now).

Like others, I'd very much like to close this tiring discussion (please note that I only asked for a source by an objective historian, not for a tiring discussion, but I don't mind taking much or all of the blame, see "A Problem of WP:HEAR").

I therefore propose to follow up on UpdateNerd's suggestion (use the line "The consensus of biblical scholars is that Jesus historically existed", with the appropriate citations and whatnot). If desired, relating problems can be further discussed in dedicated Topics (for instance about the invalidity of biblical scholars' claims that ahistoricism is a fringe theory, per Lataster's mainstream academic publication).

Are there any serious objections? (if so, please take care to state them concise, factually and to the point) Joortje1 (talk) 12:39, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

The problem remains the same - scholars do generally agree that a human non-supernatural Jesus existed. However the wording used here on Wikipedia invariably is carefully tweaked to create the interpretation that the overwhelming consensus of mainstream scholarship also supports the historicity of the Divine Saviour as well. It would solve a huge amount of "tiring discussion" if this distinction is made clear in our choice of wording throughout this article, and all the other similar and over-lapping articles. Perhaps therefore rather use the line "The consensus of biblical scholars is that the Jesus proclaimed by preachers and theologians today had no existence. But there was a historical Jesus, who was very much a man of his time". As per Ehrman, 2012 pg 13. Wdford (talk) 13:06, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Joortje1, neither Dyrska or Lataster limit it to only biblical scholars. Since Dryska and Latatser mainly address specifically Ehrman in both works it makes sense that they would focus on them. Both sources are limited in their scope and both acknowledge that there is a consensus despite any quibbles they mention. As you can see though, sources by numerous well established scholars expand further than just "biblical scholars" (Grant, Johnson, Stanton, Hurtado, Ehrman, etc) and even specify term like 'non-Christians' included to show that this is found across the board. With Carrier's admission on the only historian (not an established professor or anything like that) in 100 years to argue for mythicism, re-verifies WP:Fringe status and how such views are definitely not widespread in existing scholarship that tackles such a question - in or outside "biblical studies". Just throwing this out there - "The Oxford Handbook of Biblical Studies" shows how diverse scholars of antiquity actually are - Archaeologists, Egyptologists, Assyriologists, Textual Criticics, Linguists, Historians, among other specialists. If you ever engage Roman history or Greek history or Mayan history or Incan History - the same expertise is required for those fields.

Many mythicists complain about the consensus in so many different ways including Lataster's religiophobic stereotyping and attempts at minimizing the consensus as if there is some hidden motive or special club. I think this is why Ehrman and Casey, both nonreligious scholars, surveyed mythicism comprehensively in the 2010s - to address such lines of complaining. I recommend their works (Casey's "Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths?" is from an academic publisher FYI) since they discuss the issue of "bias" on the mythicist side - they are all atheists with detectable agendas. Whereas the consensus is made up of Jews, Muslims, agnostics, atheist, Christians, etc. It not surprising that Latatser has very radical and discriminatory views too such that he argues "I assert that questioning the existence of Jesus of the so-called Historical Jesus is something that should only concern atheists, secularists, or non-Christians...But I also assert that Christian believers should generally not become involved in this debate, nor should non-believers thrust it upon them." Such religiophobic comments sound just like young earth creationists, holocaust deniers, etc - 'if only "we" would flood the academia, our views may become the prominent view'. However, G. A. Wells (a former iconic mythicist - also non-religious - also not a "biblical scholar") already said ""Today, most secular scholars accept Jesus as a historical, although unimpressive, figure." (The New Encyclopedia of Unbelief. Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus Books. 2007). I guess Lataster is not aware of that from a fellow ex-mythcist - who by the way revived mythicism in the 1970s and 1980s only to become a historicist upon further study. Every once in a while a scholarly text here or there may emerge, but none of them have shifted any paradigm. Spoiler alert - Lataster pretty much regurgitates Carrier's arguments (which has a strong basis in Earl Doherty) since the 2019 Brill book was you quoted was originally a self published book [5] in 2015. I think you will understand why these works have been either criticized or ignored by even non-religious scholars. As Carrier in my quote in blue above said "It is difficult to have a credible thesis taken seriously when the field is swamped with crankery." Ramos1990 (talk) 18:45, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, Wdford. Good point about the divinity implications and checking the related articles. And a great suggestion to use that Ehrman quote! If only I had noticed that one at the time when I suggested to just pick some better terminology (somewehere near the top of this disccussion).

As Lataster explained, the consensus among biblical scholars basically comes with the job, no problem to accept that. We now have highly reputable WP:RS if we want to explain why that matters, but I believe making the suggested change will already make a huge difference for critical readers. This was just fact-checking and we lack data about historians; we only know of 2 qualified historians who have written about it in this century. It's interesting that both are not fans of claims that HoJ is certain, but we can only speculate about the silent majority. I prefer to focus at your practical suggestion.

Since an attributed quote seems undesirable so soon in the lead section, I'd prefer it if the text would read something like:The consensus of biblical scholars is that the Jesus proclaimed by preachers and theologians today had no existence, but that there was a first century Jew called Jesus who was baptized and crucified. Ehrman's "who was very much a man of his time" sounds unencyclopedic, and implies that J was in line with the zeitgeist, while he can as easily be interpreted as an eccentric (or whatever else anybody prefers). If desired, Ehrman's precise wording can be fully quoted in the citation for the first half.

I don't really care about the particulars of the second half (Jew or man? From Nazareth?). Maybe it's just better to separate such details from the intriguing idea that the historicity of divinity and miracles is still debated.

Does anybody have any serious objection? (please stay concise, to the point, factual, neutral, et cetera) Joortje1 (talk) 21:10, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Again. No source limits it to biblical scholars only. Why ignore the majority of sources already presented in the FAQ? Also no need to introduce divinity and miracles to the article since the article is not about such matters at all. This actually introduces confusion and pointless debate like this. This is not what we are seeking here on wikipedia. The current wording "The mainstream scholarly consensus is that a Jewish man named Jesus of Nazareth did exist in 1st century Palestine." is short, to the point, neutral, clear, in line with what the sources are saying on historicity and not mixing variables (divinty, miracles, etc). There is actually no consensus on divinity, miracles, either etc. See Note 3. Ehrman himself does not affirm or deny them. The same goes for divinity. The Wdford quote is Ehrman summarizing Albert Schweitzer's views, not his. Ehrmam says he agrees with a "rough outline" of Schweitzer after the quote. Later on Ehrman says that there is a rough outline scholars agree with of minimal information on Jesus on page 270. He states "Nearly all critical scholars agree at least on those points about the historical Jesus. But there is obviously a lot more to say, and that is where scholarly disagreements loom large - disagreements not over whether Jesus existed but over what kind of Jewish teacher and preacher he was." Ramos1990 (talk) 22:00, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Problem. The first sentence of the lede defines the topic of the article as follows: "The historicity of Jesus is the question of whether or not Jesus, the central figure of Christianity, historically existed". By stating "the central figure of Christianity", we specifically open the door to the supernatural deity of miracles and resurrections. It is thus important to clarify that the majority of mainstream scholars accept the historicity of a mortal human Jesus only, and that the "Jesus proclaimed by preachers and theologians today" is a different matter entirely. I have watched for years as this issue is diligently fudged, over and over and over, to permit the POV that the supernatural deity was historical. Wdford (talk) 22:46, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Fine. Then that can be simplified with "Jesus of Nazareth" and removing's "the central figure of Christianity". Ramos1990 (talk) 22:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Having read through this long thread it seems like User:Ramos1990, User:Mathglot and User:Jeppiz are the only ones providing solid justifications and are consistent with emphasizing sources that are not fringe or by fringe scholars. Mathglot and Jeppiz have clearly laid out how to handle consensus on the topic by scholars and Ramos1990 has provided extensive quotes by mainstream scholars on the matter along with the FAQ and dozens of quotes. His latest wording proposal "Mainstream scholarly consensus" is what the sources are saying and is in NPOV fashion without mixing other variables that have nothing to do with historicity. The remaining editor User:Joortje1 should take their personal biased "analysis" of a consensus elsewhere as it is pretty much WP:SYN and WP:OR. No one does break downs for the consensus on evolution, spherical earth, etc. like this. The FAQ already details how to handle consensus clearly. We do not care about how you feel about all of this - they are experts you are not. WP:DROPTHESTICK. Mythicists and mythicists sympathizers do not have enough prominence in scholarship over the past 100 years to have their complaints be entertained on Wikipedia. And to push marginal views above the mainstream scholars is clearly WP:UNDUE and unacceptable. It wastes peoples time and is indeed not relevant to the topic of historicity like the other three editors I named have already said over and over. It is time to close this discussion. desmay (talk) 01:49, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

What the guidelines actually say:

WP:SCHOLARSHIP

“Articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible.”

“Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses.”

WP:RS/AC: "Review articles, especially those printed in academic review journals that survey the literature, can help clarify academic consensus."

WP:TERTIARY: Policy: Reliable tertiary sources can help provide broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources and may help evaluate due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other.

Of course I may sometimes misjudge things, but almost everything I pointed out seems to have been backed up with highly reputable WP:RS (and thus not merely a personal "biased" opinion).

If I understand it correctly, popular books by scholars should be considered primary sources (personal opinions about their subject, possibly with WP:OR). Claims of general consensus agreeing with an author in such books are therefore highly dubious, and, in the case of biblical scholars, further complicated because the scholarly tone, reliability, and their expertise (on the higher level of the HoJ question) is heavily contested in highly reputable WP:RS(see Dykstra, Lataster, the Themelios review, and presumably Carrier). The longer lists in the FAQ somewhat subscribe to the consensus claim, but using such a list would be the WP:OR WP: SYNTH problem (a principle pointed out by others, probably pertaining to my search for sources by historians, of which I already said there was too little data to draw conclusions about consensus in that field).

Why would I have to look up a tertiary source on HoJ, while nobody bothered to provide one for the current claim?

I still think the Dykstra source is the best we got. Apparently, the mainstream peer-reviewed Lataster and Carrier volumes deserve much more WP:DUEWEIGHT than the current citations, but don't blame me if you don't like their status or what they say. I wasn't the one who urged us to look at them or who emphasised their high reputability.

I'm sorry to have emphasised (originally intended as an aside) what I found problematic about the current article. I actually hoped to find an objective qualified historian's view that could more clearly (and in a proper scholarly tone) explain the theories about the existing evidence for HoJ.

For the moment, I don't think it's very fruitful to try to reach a consensus via this article's Talk Page discussions. It's probably much more efficient to just change whatever, as long as there's a reputable scholarly WP:RS citation for it.

Instead of disrupting my quest for sources by historians, could everybody who is not interested in those, please concentrate on, for instance, style improvements, a better structure of the article, clearer descriptions, checking whether statemenst are factual (and backed up with WP:RS of course), or adding relevant information (yes, from WP:RS, of course)? Joortje1 (talk) 15:28, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

You'll never win ... people have been trying to get this article to recognise the startlingly obvious fact that people that believe Jesus is the divine son of a Creator cannot be treated as objective sources as to whether or not he existed for at least a decade, if not more. The article gets corrected occasionally, but only for a short period of time.—Kww(talk) 05:23, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

A problem of WP:HEAR

I've read through the long discussions above carefully. Interesting though they are in their own right, from the viewpoint of WP policies they start to get a bit problematic. To be somewhat blunt: Joortje1, we go by WP:RS and it does not matter what you believe. Obviously, the same applies to me and to every other user, our own opinions do not count. Whether I like what a scholar in a field says or not, and whether I agree with it or not, is irrelevant. I say this because much of the discussion in the past few weeks seems to go around in circles, around the common theme that Joortje1 tries to discredit what scholar say. We get claims such as

• "I'm getting tired of discussing the consensus (or is it bias?) of scholars"
  
• "it's not very factual to claim something like academic consensus among "scholars of antiquity" without a WP:RS from a non-Christian person who actually studied history"
  
• "Are there any relevant scholarly sources written by historians who first studied the cultural context and then took a thorough (unbiased) look at the historicity question?"
  
• "the whole discipline is exclusively populated by credulous pigheaded individuals"
  

Ok, so we now know that Joortje1 does not like Biblical scholars. That might be of interest to Joortje1's blog, but is irrelevant to Wikipedia. WP:NOTAFORUM very much applies, as this talk page is not here to discuss Joortje1's personal opinions at length, for weeks. As serious users have replied for weeks, this is starting to look like a problem of WP:HEAR. So to make things perfectly clear: we will continue to go by academic consensus as established in reliable sources, and whether Joortje1 dislikes those academics or not is entirely irrelevant. Jeppiz (talk) 19:08, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, in full agreement with this. I'll add my own blunt comment to J, which is: put up or shut up: Go find a WP:TERTIARY source that agrees with you, or stop raising this same issue over and over again; other Wikipedia editors have been responding repeatedly, perhaps less patiently now, understandably, but there is no requirement to satisfy your concerns, and I think it's clear that you stand alone against WP:CONSENSUS. I would view continuing insistence on raising this same point again as getting close to WP:DISRUPTION. This page is about improving the article, it is not a soapbox for expounding one's views on the topic. Mathglot (talk) 19:32, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your concerns. I adressed some of them in a recent reply on the "Scholars of Antiquity" topic.

I agree on the necessity of WP:RS, and don't think my believe or lack of believe in historicity should matter. It can be difficult to keep personal opinions on the polarising topic out of it, but I personally believe that neither theory can be proved (historicity seems slightly more probable to me, but I haven't properly looked into the mythicist arguments, which seems to require more knowledge of ancient mythology than I have). I merely wanted to see more factual statements in a more orderly way and intended only to express the opinion that the text of the articles and the cited sources have some problems in stating their case clearly and in scholarly objectivity.

I apologise for the less patient and less civil tone of words like "credulous pigheaded individuals". For the record: that doesn't mean I don't like the people or that I don't believe they can be great experts in their field, but I believe the full quotes and their context make it clear that it was directed at the disdainful and unscholarly tone that many of them tend to use (when asking yourself why I think their tone matters, please consider checking the Dykstra source in the other thread, what the WP page for Historian says about objectivity, and maybe have another look at the holocaust-denial comparison quotes in the Talk Page FAQ). This pertains to problems in the article that others had already pointed out (see "Style"), so I doubt whether WP:NOTAFORUM and WP:CONSENSUS are called for.

It's possible that I have overlooked someone, but until today it seemed very much like Ramos1990 and I were talking in a vacuüm without other people chiming in on those discussions. With 2 people having difficulty understanding each other, I wonder whether WP:HEAR applies. I suppose we both thought the other kept on going for too long. From my viewpoint, for a long time, he seemed to be the one who failed or refused to "get the point", didn't seem to care about problems stated by other people, not able to WP:TALK#OBJECTIVE, not interested in WP:TALK#FACTS (once again; I admire his patience. And, I believe we have started to get along better). Much of what I stated could have been more WP:TALK#POSITIVE and tactful, yet it was all intended to WP:TALK#COMMUNICATE specific concerns that seemed to cause many complaints on the talk page. Joortje1 (talk) 17:28, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Virtually all scholars

"Virtually all scholars" is a solid paraphrasing of the sources; "most" is an understatement: "nearly all historians"; "virtually everyone"; "overwhelming body of scholars." And yes, there is consensus to use this phrase; " number of removals" is not an argument to deviate from those sources; why do editors object against sticking to those sources? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:42, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

"Virtually all" is still not a consensus. A consensus is when everyone agrees, and I think you will agree that we are far from achieving a consensus on this point. Cutelyaware (talk) 05:57, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree with Joshua Jonathan. Random wikieditors tend to ignore the sources themselves despite quote after quote by actual scholars stating the position of mainstream scholarship (Note 1 and Note 2). The article should reflect what the sources say, per wikipedia policy, not random wikieditor "opinions" on the matter. The FAQ addresses this too. Cutelyaware, please see the FAQ on the scholarly consensus on the matter and how non-existence theories are WP:FRINGE. The phrase "virtually all" is addressed on Q2 of the FAQ after many discussions through the years and many editors reverting the removal of it. Plus Ehrman specifically uses such a phrase directly, so this is sourced. Ramos1990 (talk) 06:06, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

The sources you are talking about generally all source each other, so within their community, they do indeed have a consensus opinion. The problem is that the community of Biblical scholars is nothing like the community of historians. You know this full well because you have yet to tell me why you feel Biblical scholars are the equals of historians, yet don't want them to be referred to as Biblical scholars.

Regarding fringe theories, claiming to be unconvinced by an argument is not itself a theory of any kind. Only the unconvincing argument can be a theory and that is where the burden of evidence lies. Cutelyaware (talk) 06:28, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Stanton - "Today nearly all historians", Ehrman - "Serious historians of the early Christian movement—all of them—", Van Voorst "Biblical scholars and classical historians", etc. See Michael Grant (Roman historian) and Paul Johnson (general historian) too. Other sources also state "scholars" in general. They do not limit it to just "biblical" scholars. Also, see Q3 on the quality of the literature that exists on non-historicity. Ramos1990 (talk) 06:46, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Let's take Ehrman for example since you quoted him. Ehrman has been about as Christian as one can be, dedicating his life to parsing meaning from Biblical text. So when he says "Serious historians of the early Christian movement—all of them—", he's talking about Christian researchers like himself who are motivated by their religious beliefs. These are all far from being mainstream historians. I'm sure the stories are similar for the others that you listed. The reason why historians don't refute the claims about the historical Jesus is because there is far too little hard evidence to study for them to be able to successfully publish in scientific journals. Cutelyaware (talk) 07:30, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

@Cutelyaware:

• Regarding consensus is when everyone agrees, if you din't know how WP:CONSENSUS works, you're wasting the time of your fellow editors.
• Regarding The sources you are talking about generally all source each other:

• is that so?
• and if so, so what? Scholars refer to each other; that's normal;
• the sources, az in "kind of sources: cheap rhetorics; what other WP:RS have you got in store? Where is the consensus among historians that Jesus as a historical person did not exist? Or even the glimpse of dissent?

• Why are Biblical scholars not the equal of scholars? Sources, please; not your personal biases;
• Ehrman is not Christian; get your facts straight;
• Regarding I'm sure the stories are similar for the others that you listed, what makes you so sure? Did you check, or is it your personal bias which you prefer to leave unchecked?
• Regarding historians don't refute the claims about the historical Jesus: again rhetorics and your personal preferred agenda; why would historians have to "refute" "claims" about a historical Jesus? You a priori suppose that there is something to refute. Ask yourself another question: why are there only a few scholars who bother to engage, "refute," the CMT?

And please write in a clear and unambiguous way. Which consensus are you referring to? Among scholars (I didn't write "consensus" in that line in the lead), or here at this discussion. And what does claiming to be unconvinced by an argument is not itself a theory of any kind. Only the unconvincing argument can be a theory and that is where the burden of evidence lies mean? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:38, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Regarding your snide comment "what other WP:RS have you got in store?", I'm very offended and insist you cease all personal attacks or I'll report you. Same for "not your personal biases" and "get your facts straight." These are completely unacceptable.

I said "consensus", not WP:CONSENSUS. IE in the dictionary sense which means everyone agrees. Wikipedia has a far more nuanced version of the term specifically because of this sort of fight. WP:CONSENSUS says "The result might be an agreement that may not satisfy everyone completely, but indicates the overall concurrence of the group." which is pretty much the dictionary definition.

Regarding scholars referring to each other, that's obviously correct. What's not common in the sciences is for entirely separate populations of researchers in one area to pretty much only reference each other, without any cross-over into related fields, with references also being made in the other direction.

"Why are Biblical scholars not the equal of scholars?" If they really were the equivalent of scholars in general, then why do you care so much? Instead you should be proud to call them Biblical scholars, right?

Regarding Ehrman, He's only recently disavowed Christianity. The writings that everyone likes to quote are from when he was a born-again evangelical. But you knew that already, didn't you? That's very disingenuous.

Regarding "what does claiming to be unconvinced by an argument is not itself a theory of any kind. Only the unconvincing argument can be a theory and that is where the burden of evidence lies mean?", it means just what it says. You know it as the "Christ myth theory". That's a straw man tactic to try to frame people unconvinced by the Christ theory as the ones that are promulgating a proposition that they haven't proven.

Let me put it another way: Are you convinced by the "historical Zeus theory"? No? then I demand that you prove your Zeus myth theory. Cutelyaware (talk) 08:18, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Practice what you preach, will you?

• If they really were the equivalent of scholars in general, then why do you care so much? Instead you should be proud to call them Biblical scholars, right?. And let me note that you are the one who cares so much.
• He's only recently disavowed Christianity. The writings that everyone likes to quote are from when he was a born-again evangelical. But you knew that already, didn't you? That's very disingenuous. is nonsense. Ehrman started to doubt his faith in the 1990s; see Bart Ehrman, Leaving the Faith. His most-referenced publications are from the late 1990s and thereafter. His popular writings, Misquoting Jesus (2007), Jesus, Interrupted (2010), Forged (2011), Did Jesus Exist (2012) are from the 2000s and later. See also the number of reviews for his individual publications at Amazon; Misquoting Jesus 2,770, How Jesus Became God (2014) 2,149, Jesus, Interrupted (2009) 1,822. I don't know what your views are based on, but don't accuse me of being disingenuous when you're incorrect.

Regarding "It just means what it says": still incomprehensible.

Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 09:18, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that there are extremely few non-Christian scholars that have avowed any opinion on the historical existence of Jesus, and, due to problems with bias, the view of Christian scholars on the topic is irrelevant. The phrasing of "virtually all scholars" gives the false impression that there actually are a large number of unbiased scholars that have come to a consensus. There isn't.—Kww(talk) 13:37, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Your statement the view of Christian scholars on the topic is irrelevant is jaw-dropping... Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:03, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

I wish I believed I had brought you to a revelation of sorts, but I'm certain you are expressing genuine astonishment. When researching Haile Selassie, how much weight do you give to the conclusions that Rastafarians draw in comparison to those held by the non-Rastafarians?—Kww(talk) 14:18, 19 November 2023 (UTC)