Talk:Kenji Miyazawa

Kokuchūkai

Sorry to say that, but to say that he was a ‚devout‘ Buddhist might sound fluffy and cuddly in a Western perspective, but he was a member of Kokuchūkai which should be mentioned. He was no registered member of any traditional Buddhist temple, even within Nichiren Buddhism. Him being a member of Kokuchūkai is part of his biography to call him therefore a devout Buddhist is itself farfetched. --Catflap08 (talk) 22:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what fluffiness has to do with it. His connections to Kokuchūkai are dealt with after the lede; unless you are going to explain in the lede what Kokuchūkai is, that would make the lede opaque to most readers. "The poet Miyazawa Kenji (1896-1933) was an early twentieth-century Japanese modernist who today is known worldwide for his poetry and stories as well as his devotion to Buddhism", "the renowned Buddhist author, Miyazawa Kenji", "Among the possible interpretations of Ginga tetsudō no yoru, one must consider that it is an expression of the author’s Nichiren Buddhist beliefs, which he long held and explicitly articulated elsewhere in other works and correspondence. Reframing both the scholarship on Kenji’s ties to the prominent prewar Nichiren organization, the Kokuchūkai, and the research on Kenji’s close friendship with Hosaka Kanai, I demonstrate how the salvation that the protagonist Giovanni finds in the story is shaped by the teachings of Nichiren Buddhism.", "Poet and Buddhist agro-revolutionary, a devout Buddhist", "This and his strong Buddhist faith drove Kenji to spend most of his brief life in a passionate struggle to improve the lot of the poor farmers there". This is from a few minutes on just English-language sites. Dekimasuよ! 06:16, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

The term ‘Kokuchūkai’ has an interwiki link. The average reader should be allowed the intelligence to press that link and find out what Kokuchūkai is all about. Traditionally in Japan one would be expected to be registered with a temple when called a Buddhist. Kokuchūkai is a lay organisation, not affiliated to any Buddhist school and with a dubious nationalist agenda - why is that a problem to mention?--Catflap08 (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

@ Hijiri88 Why should it be poking to mention in the introduction a fact that the main text elaborates on? I find your edit itself to be POV as it seems you do not like that fact to be mentioned. He is no more mentioned as a Nationalist but member of Kokuchūkai. Seems like whitewashing his biography.--Catflap08 (talk) 10:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

<EDIT CONFLICT> Because the sources that merely summarize the facts briefly (as our lead should) and even many that go into further detail don't even mention the organization. They simply refer to him as a devout follower of Nichiren Buddhism. You removed all reference in the Kokuchūkai article to the balance problems in that article, then wikilinked to it in the lead of this article. Your comments immediately above this one make it clear that that was your intent, and they also make clear why. You want this article to come as close as possible to saying "he was a nationalist" as it can. You have been engaged in a slow motion edit war on this topic for more than a year, and you have come up against unanimous opposition in this edit war from at least nine other users (possibly more including one user who commented on the inappropriateness of your behaviour without remark on the content and another whose view on the content was ambivalent). This type of disruptive, IDHT behaviour has gotten other users TBANned/blocked. You clearly are not interested in the topic of Miyazawa Kenji -- if you were, you would have read one of the hundreds of sources that refer to him as a devout Buddhist without any reference to nationalism, sometimes without even naming the Kokuchūkai -- so why not just move on to something else? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:33, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Even in the foreword to „The dragon and the Poet“ his Kokuchūkai‎ membership is mentioned. Its not my fault that Kokuchūkai‎ is what it is.--Catflap08 (talk) 12:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Which translation? And why not read a biography of the man, or his entry in one of the histories of Japanese literature, or some such? Anyway, don't close a comment addressed to another user with a question and then some time later tag more commentary on to it. I was already done answering your question (beginning with "Because") before you wrote the above. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:33, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I can not see what you are doing at the same time as I do. Here you go

https://books.google.de/books?id=4JUBAwAAQBAJ&pg=PP3&lpg=PP3&dq=Kokuch%C5%ABkai%E2%80%8E&source=bl&ots=0hBZQnOqLS&sig=DKHL5IQrEkGmUxPCyOekxtC0PNA&hl=de&sa=X&ei=rgHvVMq2IJDhaMzZgOgI&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCjgK#v=onepage&q=Kokuch%C5%ABkai%E2%80%8E&f=false

--Catflap08 (talk) 12:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I can't see the reference to Kokuchūkai, but it's a translation of a children's book and from the cover/title it appears to be itself aimed at children. Is it in a biography of the man? Anyway, even the best single source is still just a single source. You were met with comprehensive analyses of how Kenji is discussed in hundreds of sources in his own language -- the language of 99% of Kenji scholarship -- and failed to respond. You waited for me to drift away to other concerns and then dropped in to reinsert the same questionable material you were already told numerous times not to. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:10, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

My most recent edit summary is another piece worth noting, but here's some more:

1. When we search the websites of Japanese universities for the name "Miyazawa Kenji" (in its most common orthography for simplicity) we get 23,200 hits.
2. When we take away all references to "Kokuchū" (by any orthography; -kai can also be spelled a few ways, but isn't important) we get 23,100 hits.
3. Okay, fine. Maybe the majority of those are merely library listings of book titles, so of course they don't connect the man with the group. So how about this. When we change "Miyazawa Kenji" to "Miyazawa Kenji wa" (which tends to appear at the start of sentences, so likely not too many library listings of book titles) and add the names of two of his most well-known works, "Ginga Tetsudō no Yoru" and "Haru to Shura" so as to guarantee no library listings of any one of his works, we get 56 hits.
4. When we take away any any reference to "Kokuchū" (see above for rationale) we get 43 hits.

So yes, clearly a decent proportion of sources do mention the Kokuchūkai in relation to him -- but not enough to justify the emphasis you are trying to give it.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:46, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I have no idea what you are on about. In the source, a forward to one of his works a short bio is included. Months ago somebody argued the nationalistic case – point taken. He was a member of Kokuchokai end of story, that’s what his faith was built on and Kokuchokai was what it then was. Since you go on about it in two articles you seem to have a problem with Kokuchokai. --Catflap08 (talk) 13:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Great. And once someone rewrites the Kokuchūkai article to put less undue weight on the group's nationalism -- a nationalism no one except a lone Wikipedia editor seems to think Kenji shared -- then maybe wikilinking the group's article in the lead will be appropriate. You don't know what I'm on about for the same reason you appear to now think it's spelled "Kokuchokai" -- you don't read Japanese and you are (at best) clumsy with sources in languages you do speak. You clearly have no interest in this topic and have no intention of improving this article. You are here solely to push a fringe POV. You have been violating consensus and behaving disruptively on this article for over a year now. If you try to violate consensus by pushing this POV in the article again, I will request for you to be TBANned. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The article on Kokuchūkai‎ is written based on sources available and if you call me clumsy call all authors on the issue clumsy too. As far as I know “Kai” means society. It is not my fault that the guy was in this organisation. I think you may be pushing things rewriting articles in order to fit your view of the world thereby ignoring what sources have to say about the issue. --Catflap08 (talk) 14:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, and you know nothing else about the man, it seems. In your brief examinations of a limited number of sources of Nichiren groups you came across the name Miyazawa Kenji, and so you came on Wikipedia, looked up the name and rewrote the article to include every few paragraphs the unattested claim that he was a nationalist. You have been fighting for the last year to keep the article this way, against unanimous opposition. Your claims that "his faith was based on the Kokuchūkai‎" are wrong -- even the group itself says his faith was based on his reading of the Lotus Sutra. STOP TRYING TO REWRITE THIS ARTICLE'S LEAD TO FIT YOUR OWN POV NOW OR YOU WILL BE TAKEN TO ANI. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

By the way, this wasn't me. Nor was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kenji_Miyazawa&diff=603518401&oldid=602008035 the first user to revert you. So that's two more users who oppose you on this issue. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

You are contradicting yourself. In the lede the Nationalist issues was gone since June 2014. I inserted the fact that he was a member of Kokuchokai, a fact nobody denies. Now you say he was a Nichiren Buddhist. Nichiren Buddhism is not a sect or school. So in effect you do not want to see that a reference is made to the fact that the guy was a member of Kokuchokai – right? As this would specify to which branch of Nichiren Buddhism he belonged – and by all means a controversial branch. So to sum this issue up you want referenced information not be on display – right? --Catflap08 (talk) 16:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

If "he was a member of Kokuchukai" is not related to "he was a nationalist", then why did you make this connection yourself last year? You are trying to unbalance this article in favour of your own POV, as you have been stubbornly doing for over a year. Your latest attempt to sneak "Kokuchukai" into the article via an otherwise unnecessary link to a Google Books search for the word is yet another example of this disruptive behaviour. It has already been explained to you by a dozen other users why your edits here are inappropriate, but you appear either unable or unwilling to listen. This is beginning to drain on my patience. If you waste any more of my time on this petty bickering, I will request that you be topic-banned or blocked. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:31, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

(Comment from uninvolved editor) I removed this from the third opinion noticeboard (as well as this related discussion) because each are disputes between more than two editors. I personally have no opinion on the subject, but I would advise all parties to read WP:FORUMSHOP. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 04:32, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@ Hijiri 88 You seem to get the line of events confused. I did indeed insert the nationalist issue which some found to be disputed. I then inserted that he was a member of Kokuchokai, which since inserted nobody objected to – as he was a member of that group (quite devoted actually) – which you deleted. And now you are trying to warn me!?--Catflap08 (talk) 17:55, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

The best description of his religious affiliation is "he was a devout follower of Nichiren Buddhism, which had a significant influence on several of his literary works, and had a special affection for the Lotus Sutra". Very few sources even mention the Kokuchukai, and those that do never draw the same conclusions you have, which you explicitly stated are the conclusions you also want this article's readers to draw. Your specific desire to name the organization with which he was affiliated, and to overlink your own poorly-written article on that group so as to encourage our readers to draw the same conclusion you have, is disruptive. Three users -- User:Dekimasu, the 128 IP and myself -- have all independently opposed you on this point, and no one has taken your side. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I know you probably think, again in violation of WP:AGF, that the IP was me, but please consider that the IP reverted you on January 13, you reverted back immediately, I was actively making logged-in edits at the time, and it took me over a month to notice what had been going on on this page. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

@ Hijiri 88 The term “devout” seems a rather peacock term please note WP:FLOWERY. You keep changing the subject. First of all I changed the wording in June 2014 to the effect that he was a nationalist, this was challenged and discussed. I accepted that. I then entered the fact that he was a member Kokuchukai, This remained to be in the article until you deleted it. A fact that is mentioned in the main body of the article. You then carried on and deleted a reference I added dealing with the issue in the foreword to one of his own translations. You said you found it not suitable which is a POV, you insert “devout Nichiren Buddhist” you like the wording better. In effect you delete a reference that deals with the fact discussed and deleted factual information with a vague statement.--Catflap08 (talk) 07:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I have now added a RfC, as it becomes increasingly harder to follow your intention about the outcome of this discussion. Additionally you have added comments on both talk pages that I find to come close to a personal attack/insult.--Catflap08 (talk) 08:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Membership in Kokuchūkai and reference to it

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Boxed this RFC to archive it. The parties came to an agreement. AlbinoFerret 22:41, 18 April 2015 (UTC) 13:14, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

---

Membership to Kokuchūkai deleted in lede, reference dealing with it also deleted.--Catflap08 (talk) 08:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The above is a gross misrepresentation of the dispute, and this RFC was made in bad faith by someone being opposed by all three other involved users, in violation of WP:FORUMSHOP and WP:CANVAS. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:20, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

So much for gross misinterpretation.

#1: [1]

#2: [2]--Catflap08 (talk) 15:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

What about the fact that this RFC is just forum-shopping, after three other users have already opposed this specific edit, and about a dozen more opposed your earlier characterization of Kenji as a "nationalist", and at the time you were saying the two were one and the same? This RFC is simply a rebranding of the same exact topic as the previous RFC, in which numerous users opposed your additions and no one agreed with you, and your failure to admit to these facts in your opening summary is a clear attempt to bias other users who don't know any better in favour of your side of the debate. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

@ Hijiri 88 The edit you refer to was overturned in June 2014. You now however oppose the fact him being mentioned as a member of that organisation in the lede. Calling him a devout Buddhist is one thing (even though quite misleading) – why is it such a problem to state exactly which Buddhist organisation he was a member of? Again you accuse me of stuff as all I did was inserting documented facts. --Catflap08 (talk) 16:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

It's a violation of WP:UNDUE to refer to the organization in the lede. All our sources indicate that he was interested in the faith in the Lotus Sutra, not, as you put it in your discussion of your current proposed wording, "a lay organisation, not affiliated to any Buddhist school and with a dubious nationalist agenda". You've been about as clear as you can be that emphasizing Kenji's supposed nationalism is your goal here, so mentioning the fact that consensus was already against you on this fact and the current RFC is a violation of WP:FORUMSHOP is entirely relevant. Also, regarding Kenji's mostly non-denominational devotion to the Lotus Sutra, I would draw potential commenters to the Donald Keene quote I posted on your talk page just now. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 17:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Well what about he was devout Buddhist and member of Kokuchūkai? Saying in the lede that he was devout Buddhist makes him look to the reader as a guy may be sitting in mediation in a zen monastery drinking tea and writing poetry. He was not. He was a member of a Buddhist organisation on the fringe of Nichiren Buddhism. A form of Buddhism that some say to be on the fringe of Buddhism full stop. Further … when you speak of „Plan“. Yes there was indeed a plan. I work mainly on Nichiren related matters. If you look up some dictionaries Nichiren Buddhism is often connected to fierce nationalism and many issue become mixed up. I therefore researched the issue and came across the term “Nichirenshugi” which scholars translate as Nichirenism in this conext one comes across Kokuchūkai and Tanaka Chigaku, League of Blood Incident and Nissho Inoue. I guess they all had the plan to discredit Miyazawa. Certainly any author out there mentioning Miyazawa’s membership with Kokuchūkai are also part of a great big “plan”.--Catflap08 (talk) 20:46, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Again, find a 6-sentence summary of an encyclopedia article (hell, find an encyclopedia article!) on him that mentions Kokuchukai, and then we can talk. The one source you have cited over the past few days is the introduction to a children's book that is so poorly-written that we could easily assume it got its information from Wikipedia. He was completely devoted to the Lotus Sutra (like Nichiren Buddhists tend to be) and lived his life according to it, his dying wish being to have a thousand copies of the Sutra in Japanese translation distributed to friends and associates. He infused Buddhist terminology into his poetry and children's stories. There is not a scrap of evidence except in WP:FRINGE sources trying to claim a nationalistic agenda for Kenji that he held any affection for the politics of the religious group that he worked within for a brief period long after converting to Nichiren Buddhism. The second half of your above comment is an extended admission that you are still on this "he was a nationalist" rant that was soundly resolved last summer.

@Factchecker25: @Prasangika37: @Teply: @The Gnome: @NickCT: @Solarra: @Iamozy: @Dekimasu: How do you folks all feel about Catflap08 trying to get around the previous consensus and starting a whole new RFD on the same exact topic in a different colour T-shirt?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:48, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Remove – summoned by botomatron. From what I can understand of this dispute, there should not be any reference to him being in Kokuchūkai unless it is impeccably sourced, as it seems to go against all other known data about his life. If Kokuchūkai was the man's belief and religion and philosophy, then surely he would himself have mentioned it many times. There should be no reference to him being a nationalist either. If a historic figure is a true nationalist, that information tends to be easy to find. —Мандичка^YO 😜 00:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: Strictly speaking he was a member of the group -- for about eight months, mostly because of geographical convenience. The problem arises from one user being personally convinced that the subject was "not a devout Buddhist, but a nationalist", and wants this article's readers to click the link to his own poorly-sourced article on the group so they can draw the same (almost certainly incorrect) conclusions. The standard scholarly view is that the subject had a brief flirtation with the group and, if as Catflap08 claims the group had a "dubious nationalist agenda", our subject was unaware of that fact. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:26, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: Thanks for the explanation. Definitely agree it doesn't belong in the intro at all. There's no significance in the scope of his life - it's not like he was with the Symbionese Liberation Army for eight months. Looking at the previous RFC and discussions this is clearly someone's personal agenda that IMHO needs to be escalated because of its disruptive nature and likelihood it will continue past this RfC. —Мандичка^YO 😜 09:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Responded on your talk page. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:21, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Well since it is said that Kenji was a “devout” Buddhist the only affiliation registered is the one with Kokuchukai. What I can gather is that his family followed Pure Land Buddhism which is not noted to be Lotus Sutra based. If Kenji was registered and affiliated with any other Nichiren based temple, lineage or oragnisation it should be noted. Please note that calling a source using “bad English” is a PVO, hence preselecting what the reader should be able read. Please also note that the nationalist issues has already been dealt with.--Catflap08 (talk) 18:43, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

@Catflap08: What about the temple he was buried in? The article cites this information and it's thoroughly sourced with absolutely no misrepresentation whatsoever of what the sources say. Unlike most of what you write on Wikipedia, which seems to be mostly your personal opinions and guesses, which sometimes happen to correspond with what you claim are your sources and sometimes don't. I don't know what a "PVO" is -- do you mean "POV"? And yes, if a source was originally published in English, and the quality of that English is extremely poor, then it is perfectly reasonable to assume the source had a lack of editorial oversight, meaning it could very easily be one author's poorly considered opinion, or even based on Wikipedia. But all of this is beside the point, since what the source says is irrelevant to the real problem here: that you are cherry-picking sources in order to promote your own WP:FRINGE POV. If I wanted to cite my own POV, I would say your going out of your way to attack a local hero of Iwate Prefecture, about whom you clearly know nothing, on the fourth anniversary of the Great East Japan Earthquake and Tsunami was offensive and wrong. But that's also pretty irrelevant to this dispute. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:48, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

You should start making up your mind if it’s the so called poor English that you oppose or the information the “poor English” contains. Secondly if the Kenji man’s family belonged to Pure Land Buddhism it would be likely that he was buried in such an affiliated temple graveyard. Please note that his affiliation with Kokuchukai is not one with a traditional Buddhist sect or school, so given the time he died and the time the organisation was founded they had no graveyard(s) for their adherents. Since in literature it is underlined that he was affiliated with Nichiren Buddhsim the only Nichiren based organisation he was an adherent of is the one already mentioned. --Catflap08 (talk) 20:11, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, because all families like to spit on the last wishes of their favourite son. You are making speculations with absolutely no reference to reliable sources. Your friend John Carter has said numerous times that users acquainted with Buddhism and Japan in general should be fixing these problems; you are ignoring all the reliable sources on this topic because they are all in Japanese. Actually no: you are ignoring them because they don't say what you want them to. Stop this madness now. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:26, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Move to close Catflap08 was unanimously opposed in his earlier attempt to characterize Kenji as a nationalist, and he has now been unanimously opposed in his attempts to trick our readers into clicking a wikilink that, thanks entirely to him, would cause them to think we was a nationalist. I reported his abuses on ANI with a no-consensus result on how to deal with him. He posted a revenge ANI against me and, when it didn't go the way he wanted (and he apparently didn't get his way on an unrelated page) he has apparently now retired. With no one left to argue in favour of his proposed change, I can't see anything good coming out of this RFC. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:13, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

• Why was the reference to membership of Kokuchūkai deleted removed from the lead? Kokuchūkai is mentioned six times in the main body, and his membership appears to be significant, given the impact it had on his relationship with his father, that it is argued it had an influence on his later writings, and that there is speculation (albeit minor) that it reveals some of his political affiliations. Per WP:Lead, "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:06, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
• @ User:SilkTork It is because a certain editor does not want to see such references being made. The Kenji man’s only affiliation with Nichiren Buddhism is the one mentioned. The nature of the organisation he decided to join at the time is clear – some however decide to practice white washing.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:22, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

@SilkTork: Per WP:BURDEN and WP:BRD, the dispute is not over whether a reference to the Kokuchukai should be "deleted" from the lede, but whether one should be added. The significance of the group to his overall biography is dubious, as you can see if you actually read through the references in the article body. His relationship with his father was not affected by his brief association with the Kokuchukai; he had already had a falling out with his father after converting to Nichiren Buddhism six years earlier. All of our reliable sources indicate that he was briefly associated with the group during his less-than-a-year stint in Tokyo, during which he likely had minimal contact with his father who lived hundreds of miles away. I've said enough about why one Wikipedia editor has been arguing with me and several others over this point: you can review the evidence and decide for yourself what has been going on.

Sorry for the over dramatic use of "deleted", that was me just being sloppy and picking up on the phrase used earlier. I have now corrected it to "removed". BRD is a behavioural guideline related to being bold in editing, but not angry, and about avoiding edit wars - it's not actually about making editorial decisions. BURDEN would relate to mention of Kokuchukai anywhere in the article, not any particular place. If Kokuchukai is mentioned significantly in the main body (which it is) then that mention needs to be summarised in the lead, per WP:Lead. Either Kokuchukai is relevant to this topic, in which case it is detailed in the body and summarised in the lead; or it not significant, in which case it shouldn't be in the article at all. I would suggest, that until you guys resolve the question of should Kokuchukai be discussed in the article, then, as the article currently stands, Kokuchukai should be mentioned in the lead. I am not an expert on the subject, so can't comment on the relevance of Kokuchukai to Kenji Miyazawa other than what I see already in the article, which appears to indicate enough significance to warrant mention. I just did a quick Google search; this is not always satisfactory for academic studies, but I did find this article by Jon Holt in the Japanese Journal of Religious Studies which is all about Kenji Miyazawa and Kokuchukai, and which in its opening paragraph underlines that there is significant scholarship on the relationship: " Reframing both the scholarship on Kenji’s ties to the prominent prewar Nichiren organization, the Kokuchūkai, and the research on Kenji’s close friendship with Hosaka Kanai, I demonstrate how the salvation that the protagonist Giovanni finds in the story is shaped by the teachings of Nichiren Buddhism". Given that specialists in the subject are interested in Kenji Miyazawa's relationship with Kokuchukai, what exactly is the reason why you feel it should be deliberately excluded? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 17:58, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the ambiguity. My reference to BRD was to say that the default stance should be that if a change is made and reverted, it should be discussed on the talk page before being re-added. BURDEN was mentioned because the "burden" of providing adequate sources and obtaining consensus is on the party wishing to add or maintain something in the article, not the party that wants to remove it. They were both referenced exclusively in response to your use of the word "delete", which implied that the default state should have it left in. Your revised (and better) wording "remove" actually has the same problem, though. The reference to Kokuchukai in the lede, as opposed to a single brief mention in the body, is a recent addition that has been opposed by four other users including myself, and you are the first to defend it other than the original editor, so it would be better to say "Why shouldn't the reference to membership of Kokuchukai be added to the lead?" But it's a minor stylistic point and you're entitled to your opinion. But I disagree because...

If you look at the page history, you will see that I am responsible for 4/5 of the references to Kokuchukai in the body. (The other two uses of the name in the citations were also me.) I added a more detailed discussion than was there previously in response to the current dispute, in order to demonstrate that his relationship to the group is questionable -- the group himself claim him, but literary historians are doubtful, and he was ultimately buried in an unrelated temple. The paper you cite is interesting, but it's not a biographical piece on Kenji. It's a scholarly analysis of the influence of Nichiren Buddhism, and Kokuchukai philosophy in particular, on one of his novels. I have not had time to read the paper in detail, but the quote you provide (it comes from lines 9-13 of the abstract -- I did at least read that far) implies the connection is an original theory of the author, and a recent (2014) one at that. Even if the author was saying "Kenji was a member of the group until the moment of his death, and I can prove it" this would still be a WP:WEIGHT problem when presented with the fact that other biographical works specifically addressing Kenji's religious views don't necessarily say this. Keene's History of Japanese Literature has ten pages devoted to Kenji's bio, and the Kokuchukai is blink-and-you-miss-it. Japanese books with "Miyazawa Kenji" in the titles go into more detail but generally are skeptical about his long-term commitment to the group and even his awareness of the group's allegedly nationalist agenda.

I'm also interested to know what exactly you want the lede to say: the original proposal was to replace "devout Buddhist" with "member of Kokuchukai", with the expressed reasoning being "Traditionally in Japan one would be expected to be registered with a temple when called a Buddhist. Kokuchukai is a lay organisation, not affiliated to any Buddhist school and with a dubious nationalist agenda". Your cited source is obviously inadequate for the claim "he was not a Buddhist but a member of a dubious quasi-Buddhist nationalist organization". Are you in favour of the wording "He was known as ... a devout Nichiren Buddhist (and a member of the Kokuchukai)"?

My view is that, even in a parenthetical statement like this, linking to the poorly sourced and unbalanced article on the Kokuchukai in the lede is overkill, and anyone who doesn't read the more detailed discussion in the article body but left-clicks the wikilink will come away with completely the wrong idea. I tried to fix the Kokuchukai article but had such an unpleasant time of it that, even though there was no real chance of my edits being reverted, I just pulled out of actively editing the article. If you want to have a stab at fixing that article so linking to it here more than the bare minimum won't introduce massive weight and POV problems, be my guest. As for this page, encyclopedia articles on Kenji hardly never mention the Kokuchukai. Biographies give only brief mention and are uncertain as to whether he left the group within a year. Only sources specifically discussing the Kokuchukai's supposed (remember, it's not the consensus view yet if it appeared once in one journal article published last year) influence on his literary works give any emphasis to the group in relation to him, and those sources have a very specific reason for doing so. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for expanding on your view. I think what you are saying is that you don't want the Wikipedia article to imply that he was nationalistic through what may be a tentative link to an organisation with nationalistic leanings, or for readers to leap to a conclusion that is not yet proven, And that is the right approach. From what you have said, though, it seems entirely appropriate that mention is given of Kokuchukai in the main body, with sufficient context and explanation from sources to indicate the position you outline above: that there is some speculation on his involvement with the organisation, and on its impact on his life and work. As there are some specialists who feel his involvement with the organisation was important, we should mention it, including mentioning that there are other specialists who question the importance of his affiliation. To remain quiet on the subject appears odd, and is not what we do, as that would be a disservice to those readers who may have read that he is associated with the group. Once we have material in the main body detailing the affiliation, speculation on its importance, and the counter speculation that it wasn't important, then a summary of the situation should appear in the lead: "He was a member of the Kokuchukai, a Nichiren Buddhist organisation with nationalistic leanings, though it is unclear for how long, and what relevance this had on his life and work." You then use the main body to explain more fully this statement. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:26, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I think you have misread the controversy slightly: I agree that proper discussion of his relationship with the group, well-written and diligently-sourced, should be included in the article body. That is why when you arrived here you found six uses of the word "Kokuchukai" in the article body rather than only one: I myself had written a full section discussing Kenji's religious views, featuring four sentences on his relationship with the group. I had written this in order to address the present controversy of whether he was a member of the Kokuchukai until his death and it was the only religious group with which he was affiliated, a claim continuing to be made on this talk page. The problem here is whether mention of the group belongs in the lede. I agree that the lede should summarize the content of the article, but it's impossible to read the current discussion of the Kokuchukai as justifying the characterization "he was a devout Nichiren Buddhist (a member of the Kokuchukai)" in the lede. I understand you could read it as "the Kokuchukai is discussed in detail in the body, therefore it should be in the lede", but it's just an accident of history that the body is written as it is, with proportionally as much emphasis on the Kokuchukai as there is. Print sources discussing Kenji don't give anywhere near as much weight to the group. Your proposed wording is not bad, and in an ideal world our article would have a detailed discussion of that issue in its body and we could afford to word its lede like that. But at present your proposed lede wording is essentially the same as what the body says. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:01, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

@Catflap08: He was buried in a mainstream Nichiren temple with no affiliation with the Kokuchukai. At least three other established users, not counting the IP, have opposed you on this exact point, let alone the dozen or so who opposed you last time you tried something very similar. Your attempt to classify this as "one editor" opposing your proposed addition is laughable. As an aside, could you please stop calling him "the Kenji man"? It sounds derogatory, and if you have such a low opinion of the man and the scholars who have devoted time and effort to writing books about him that you're not even willing to check how they describe him, I would suggest you stay away from this article from now on.Struck own inappropriate response to ad hominem remark as per advice on user talk page.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 17, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I don't have enough time to look into this presently, but let me just say that Nichiren Buddhism has been described in scholarly sources as having a somewhat nationalistic component. The very name Nichiren is mentioned in a chapter subtitled "Buddhism nationalism, and history in medieval Japan" [3]. Accordingly, there do not seem to be grounds to say that someone affiliated with Nichren could not be a devout Buddhist and nationalistic. The two do not necessarily seem to be incompatible. Context is important, though.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not actually seeing a really clear RfC question here, but I'm guessing it is about the mention of the group affiliation in the lede. There seems on one hand, to my possibly uninformed eyes, to be an attempt to differentiate between belief in the Lotus Sutra and being a member of one of the groups which were established on the basis of it. To my, perhaps uninformed, eyes, that sounds to me anyway like trying to say that it can be quite relevant to say someone might believe in the Book of Genesis, but his Jewishness or Christianity (whichever) is not important. I do not know that such a differentiation is often, if ever, made in any instances of the hypothetical proposal I put forward (although I could be wrong), and, although I suppose it might be in this case possible that the subject was perhaps a believer in some form of "nonsectarian" support of the Lotus Sutra, I think the basic guidelines around here would support saying that his membership in a group, if established by RS, is generally relevant if the subject notably prominently holds beliefs which are consistent with that group. Instances of Marrano-type individuals are known worldwide, but in general it is somewhat OR to say that one is such a "false adherent" to a belief unless sources specifically state as much, otherwise, we indicate the affiliation which is supported by RS's. So, so far as I can tell, some mention of group affiliation, possibly with additional "qualifier", to the effect that he was only interested in the Lotus Sutra, would seem indicated. John Carter (talk) 18:43, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

To make clear what the ongoing dispute is about. I once edited the introduction saying that Kenji was a Nationalist. This was challenged by the editor known as Hijiri 88. That point was taken and the lede remained saying he was a devout Buddhist. I later on included in the introduction that Kenji was a member of Kokuchūkai. It seems to have been established by SilkTork and John Carter that the introduction should sum up what is stated in the article. The influence of the Lotus Sutra in Kenji`s works are documented as well as his affiliation with Nichiren Buddhism. In this context the only affiliation documented is the one with Kokuchūkai – an organisation on the fringe of Nichiren Buddhism with a clear nationalist agenda, an organisation being still regarded NIchiren Buddhist. Kenji`s own family seems to have been affiliated with Pure Land Buddhism which is not based on the Lotus Sutra nor Nichiren Buddhism. So what is the problem? There is none. Kenji was a poet and what some call devout Buddhist – but also an adherent of a group devoted to a nationalistic interpretation of Nichiren`s teachings. In the course of events I was called a “jerk” and “jackass” and my citizenship ridiculed – as a German I am only allowed to hold one citizenship my background however is British, German and Czech. And finally @ _Fortuna I so far only edit regarding this ongoing conflict – if and to what extent en.Wikipedia is worth paying attention to is up to my discretion. If the reliability of information being visible to the average user is not a prime objective anymore I am not willing to waste much time unless I see gross misinformation.--Catflap08 (talk) 22:04, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

@Catflap08 -thanks for the call... why is this to do with me??? I'm honoured all the same... _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 23:10, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ubikwit: You've clearly misread this dispute, and I don't blame you -- it's a fustercluck. The dispute is not over whether he was a nationalist or whether we can call him a nationalist, as that dispute was resolved pretty conclusively last summer. The dispute is how the lede should summarize his religious views/affiliation: was he (a) "a devout Buddhist"; (b) "a member of the Kokuchukai"; (c) "a devout Buddhist (member of the Kokuchukai)"; (d) "a devout Nichiren Buddhist"; or (e) "a devout Nichiren Buddhist (member of the Kokuchukai)"?
Option (a) is the original wording. (b) is Catflap's original edit that was reverted by Dekimasu. (c) is the wording Catflap introduced after Dekimasu's revert. (d) is my wording. (e) is a hypothetical based on a combination of my wording with Catflap's. I am partial to (d) because that's how he is described in most of the sources I have read. Catflap says that Kenji was not associated with any Buddhist organization other than the Kokuchukai, and I'm not sure which of the five options he prefers. I also disagree that Kenji was not associated with any other organization, since he was buried in an unaffiliated temple.
@John Carter: Your analogy is basically flawed, since no one is arguing that he was not a "Buddhist" or a "Nichiren Buddhist". The dispute is over whether the lede should name-check a particular fringe group with which he was briefly associated. A better analogy would be to say John Smith was referred to in all the reliable sources as a devout Christian (Baptist) who was enraptured with the book of Genesis; he was briefly a member of the Westborough Baptist Church when he lived in Westborough, but apparently showed little interest in that group after moving back to his hometown of Phoenix; in the years since his death countless books and papers have been written about him and his religious views, and most barely mention the Westborough Baptist Church; none of the abundant encyclopedia articles on him even mention the group.
According to this analogy, (Personal attack removed)Catflap is now trying to either replace or tag onto the wording "he was a Christian" the note "member of the Westborough Baptist Church".
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:38, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: OK, thanks for pointing that out. I've read about ten pages of the relatively new academic paper (2014) SilkTork posted yesterday, and that says he was a Nichiren Buddhist and a "devout Buddhist writer", so it probably supports the characterization of "devout Nichiren Buddhist", and also documents his membership in the Kokuchukai and discusses the scholarly interpretations of its significance.

I would think that a text along the lines proposed by SilkTork, maybe with the addition of "devout Nichiren Buddhist", would be the most comprehensively inclusive and neutral approach:

"He was a devout Nichiren Buddhist and had been a member of the Kokuchukai, a Nichiren Buddhist organisation with nationalistic leanings, though it is unclear for how long, and what relevance this had to his life and work".

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:26, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

This matter appears to be resolved so I have removed the RfC tag. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@ User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi Uh as you seem to lose track here you go. My honour. Since tow editors are semi-retired. [4]--Catflap08 (talk) 19:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@ user:Ubikwit That’s similar to a wording I once suggested to the editor in question on his/her talk page and he/she decided to delete my post. See what happens.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:18, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@Catflap08: No, you never suggested any form of compromise, or accepted (or even read) any of my offers of compromise. You wanted the lede to proclaim him a nationalist, and then when that didn't work you wanted the lede to proclaim him "a member of the (non-Buddhist nationalist organization called the) Kokuchukai". You explicitly stated that you wanted our readers to click the link to your unbalanced POV-fest of an article on the group. Even most of your posts on this RFC have been to the effect that "he was not a member any Buddhist temple, only a lay group with a dubious nationalist agenda". The only time I ever removed a message from you on my user talk page was here. The message included no discussion of article content, and was just more personal attacks against me. I'm curious to see how you will choose to alter the current consensus wording when you inevitably come back to this article six months from now. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Foreword

I will yet include the reference made in a foreword to one of Miyazawa’s English language translations. A Foreword that makes reference of him being a Buddhist, Nichiren Buddhist and member of Kokuchūkai. Further more this is a reference for all to read via google books.--Catflap08 (talk) 21:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The English in that foreword is terrible, though not much worse than what you have been expecting me to read on these talk pages. Worse, it doesn't actually say what you claim it does. It says the same thing as the Donald Keene quote I put on your talk page: that his membership in the Kokuchukai was peripheral to his biography at best and all that really mattered to him was the Lotus Sutra itself. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:26, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Structure of biography

@User:Dekimasu: I liked this edit and I agree with your motivation, and like I said in my edit summary the timeline is going to be a bit screwy if we include a separate section on his religious views.

The way I see it the main problem is that he went to Tokyo initially for religious reasons, and not discussing his conversion to Nichiren Buddhism and his desire to "spread the word" (for want of better terminology) before talking about what he did in Tokyo seems a little confusing. (It's not a criticism of your tweaking, since I'd be one to talk with my edit discussing his death right in the middle of the biography.)

I think we should probably overhaul the section-titles in this article, since "early life" is a misnomer (he lived to be 37 and the section deals with his life up to the age of 24) and "literary career" is problematic (he was never a "professional" writer and he only received payment of five yen for one story in his whole life). The section titled "literary career" is actually about that portion of his biography (it's even told in roughly chronological order like a Wikipedia bio should be) in between when he moved to Tokyo and started actively writing (as a hobby, it would seem) and when the time came to discuss his death. There is literary stuff in that section, but it's mostly biographical.

I think giving one brief outline (Biography) of his life and the key events of said life -- maybe about the length of the current "literary career" section -- should come first. This section would deal with his sister's sickness and death, his relationship to the other members of his family, and so on, in much greater detail than it does now. (Can you believe this article still doesn't give his sister's name!? Up until yesterday, the English Wikipedia article on Miyazawa Kenji name-checked Tanaka Chigaku but not Miyazawa Toshi!) There could be some literary stuff here, but it's mostly to provide background information necessary to understand the following sections.

This would be followed by another section (no problem with keeping theLiterary career moniker, frankly) discussing his literary works in enough detail as is normal for literary biographies. The usual stuff (I haven't actually verified much of the present completely unsourced section, so I don't know about that content, but the biographical stuff can be completely cut out because it will be covered in the above section.

Then there's the section I worked on yesterday (Religious beliefs). I wrote it myself and put a lot of work into it, but I don't think it's perfect. I included the material about how "some scholars" consider him to have been a nationalist as a form of compromise with ... that other guy ... but it feels like I was violating WP:POINT or something, and blanking that paragraph is probably still better because fringe is still fringe.

What do you think?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:32, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I see what you mean, and if it's possible to restructure things, that might be preferable. Dekimasuよ! 16:19, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Which of his names should we use?

Obviously in the lede we need only use his name once, and there his full name. But in the flowing text should we call him "Kenji" or "Miyazawa"? The former has the advantage that most reliable sources call him that, and that while there are several Miyazawas mentioned or referenced in the article there is only one Kenji. The latter is the style used by Donald Keene and conforms to general Wikipedia style, and is the style currently used in the article.

Thoughts?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:06, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not used to filing him under the group that is known by a single name (Shoyo, Soseki, Toson, etc.), but if the several Miyazawas are a problem we can always use the full name for clarification. The English-language monograph On Uneven Ground from 2012 uses "Miyazawa." Dekimasuよ! 16:23, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

@Dekimasu: Sorry... my ambivalent wording seems to have caused yet another misunderstanding. I didn't mean that Kenji is "one of those who is usually known by a single name", but that, since he is one of those who is usually known by his given name (if we include Japanese scholarship, Keene and Long are definite outlyers), and since we need to use his name every few sentences, but "Kenji Miyazawa set out for Tokyo the following day" sounds ridiculous in the middle of our article on Kenji Miyazawa, we should pick a style (and maybe include a footnote on it either way. (I was reading our Cesare Borgia article yesterday and it suffers from that very problem.) Keene doesn't mention the fact that most Japanese scholars call him by his given name; Holt (SilkTork and Ubikwit's cited source from the RFC a few sections up) follows the given name convention and justifies it (p306 n2); I haven't read Long -- does he comment on it anywhere? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:58, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Dubious "close" of an RFC that was actually closed weeks earlier?

@User:AlbinoFerret: This seems questionable, since the RFC template was removed three weeks earlier and the "consensus" is something that was stated by one user (SilkTork), directly opposed within the RFC by two other users (Wikimandia and myself) and agreed to by a third (Ubikwit). I acceded to the proposal but with a condition that someone either help me clean up the other article or support my cleaning it up -- this condition was agreed to initially, but never met. Dekimasu then came back and very clearly opposed my interim concession, taking the position earlier taken by Wikimandia and myself. If I had known that Dekimasu would soon come back and take the same stance as me on how the lede should be worded, I never would have made the concession I did. The timing of your "closing" the already-closed thread makes it look like a (no-doubt unintentional) undermining of the more recent developments. That the lede should summarize the article's content in a manner that most of the editors involved feel violates WP:WEIGHT was never a "consensus" to begin with.

Since I'm certain this is just a good-faith misunderstanding I'm not reverting you directly, but I would appreciate hearing what motivated you to "close" the already-closed thread and present an original interpretation of the discussion as the "consensus".

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:32, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

The reason it was closed, was its listing on the WP:ANRFC diff. It was not an original interpretation. It was formed by reading the Rfc and finding that a majority of the responders followed that line of reasoning in the comments. They may not have all used the exact words. AlbinoFerret 11:22, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Your diff is bad: the actual listing was here, and was a misplaced listing, because the RFC had been successfully closed weeks earlier. Perhaps User:Cunard's listing was a good-faith mistake based on some external RFC listing that SilkTork had forgotten to deal with when originally closing the RFC weeks earlier?

"the lede should cover what is in the article" was clearly based on SilkTork's comment. Even Ubikwit (who explicitly favoured SilkTork's proposed wording) did not make the argument that it should "cover what is in the article". I as the user who wrote the relevant passage in the article explicitly opposed this dubious characterization of what I had written, and one other user (Dekimasu) who was apparently busy with off-wiki business during the RFC but was very much involved in the dispute clearly was opposed to the whole move.

The "is policy based" wording is curious, given that the dispute was not over policy but over external reliable sources -- what did you mean by it?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:08, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Also, could you explain what "experience" you have closing RFCs to justify overruling a previous, if poorly-formatted, admin close? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:22, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

The diff was not incorrect, I just wanted to show you that the RFC was listed, and showing the section being marked as done seemed the easiest way to accomplish this. The policy is WP:RS and WP:MOSINTRO, RFC's are closed based on consensus of arguments based on policy, WP:JDLI] arguments will not win over policy based arguments. As for overturning, I dont think of it as overturning. The RFC was not obviously closed, and it was listed on the WP:ANRFC page. Please AGF. AlbinoFerret 17:45, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• The close said "The opening RFC question was a statement rather than a question. The consensus is that the lede should cover what is in the article and is policy based." This is a restatement of policy and doesn't seem to be a controversial close. The close is basically a restatement of what SilkTork wrote here:

  Per WP:Lead, "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article."

  I have asked SilkTork to take a look at this. Cunard (talk) 22:41, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

• Additional comment to AlbinoFerret after I have taken a closer look: I've skimmed the discussion at Talk:Kenji Miyazawa#RfC: Membership in Kokuchūkai and reference to it and think your close is fine. SilkTork (talk · contribs) expressed a view about the article's content and later analyzed several sources about the topic. SilkTork is acting as an editor rather than as an admin in the discussion. Therefore, you did not overrule him because you were acting as an uninvolved editor while he was an involved editor participating in the discussion. And it is not necessary to know whether he was an admin or non-admin because he was acting as a regular editor.

  He removed the RfC tag with the edit summary "close", but he did not summarize the consensus. He only wrote "This matter appears to be resolved". There was no "close" to be overruled.

  It is well established practice and policy that:

  On the question of whether an RFC close by a non-admin can be summarily overturned by an admin, in most cases, no, and never if the only reason is that the closer was not an admin. I don't think we can say there is any iron-clad policy or consensus on this issue, but generally there should be a very good reason for anyone to overturn another users close of an RFC.

  —Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Archive 12#Review, 13 February 2013

  The purpose of this policy is to allow non-admins to put great time and care into closing controversial discussions without the fear that anyone can sweep away their hours of work with a revert.

  This principle was upheld in the December 2014 RfC closure review at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive267#Restoring reverted close of Talk:Cultural Marxism#Re-proposal.

  If your close is challenged and you cannot come to an agreement with the challenging editor, you or the challenging editor can take your close to WP:AN for a closure review. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Closure review archive for a list of past closure reviews.

  Cunard (talk) 23:40, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

@User:AlbinoFerret: So, you based your "consensus" wording on the initial, poorly-worded statement by one of the participants, who at that time thought that (1) the article covered and always had covered the group in some detail and (2) the reference had been in the lede and had been "removed", rather than being unilaterally added and challenged? The statement in question was immediately challenged and partly withdrawn. That's a pretty disastrous close, and I think most users would agree with me.

@AlbinoFerret & User:Cunard: Both of you are missing the basic point that the closing statement of a "consensus" was based on a statement made by SilkTork (before the latter even knew all the facts -- my explanation of why Kokuchukai is mentioned in the body came later) and was not directly agreed to by anyone. The timing of the close was unfortunate, but it certainly looks like an attempt to undermine Dekimasu's edits.

@Cunard: SilkTork didn't "analyze several sources": he presented a single source that with no other context would support inclusion in the lede since it was all about Kenji's relationship with the group. I challenged him on this immediately, pointing out that the vast majority of sources on Kenji don't even mention the group, but at present half the lede is devoted to his relationship with the group. I've got one open AN thread at the moment and one closed-but-still-unarchived one, so I won't challenge immediately. If you hadn't directly supported the close I would have reverted it as a counter-consensus move that was unnecessary (again, please recognize that the RFC template was removed and the word "closed" was used). Now I'll just wait a little while. Also, can I ask why you listed the "unofficially closed" RFC on ANRFC when you did? I notice you added a bunch of others too, so it's not hard to assume good faith (again, the timing was unfortunate). Did SilkTork forget to remove it from somewhere when he originally closed?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:18, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

• If an RfC has reached a conclusion there is no imperative to formally close it. A guideline is given at Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment#Ending_RfCs. In this case there was a question raised, a discussion followed, and some editing done on the article which appeared to be to the satisfaction of everyone involved. At that point there didn't seem much point in keeping the RfC open, nor a need to formally close it. Indeed, a formal closure is only one out of five suggested endings, and there are as many different endings as there different types of RfC. If a RfC has generated a lot of participation and/or relates to policy or other matters that will have a wide impact, then a formal closure is important. But formal closure for formal closure sake is neither required nor advisable. Sometimes it can seemingly lock in a decision, and then it would require another discussion with a formal close to unlock that decision. On the whole, we prefer to allow editing decisions to unfold more organically.

Anyway, we now have a formal close, and a challenge to that close. What happens now is if AlbinoFerret, the closer, and Hijiri88, the challenger, cannot reach agreement on what to do, the close can be taken to AN for review. My personal view is that while the close is strictly correct on the question of WP:Lead: that if there is something significantly mentioned in the body of an article, it should be summarised in the lead; the close did not take into account the reasons for the objections to what was in the lead, not to the solutions offered, and the wording that was used. As a formal close it's not particularly helpful in this case, but neither is it doing any harm - it simply repeats something that is in WP:Lead; the question of how that relates to the specific objections and discussion is not mentioned, so it is not making any binding decision on the issue. So, the options are: 1) accept the close, as it makes no difference, then archive the RfC and move on; 2) undo the close, as it makes no difference, then archive the RfC and move on; or 3) take the matter to AN and involve more people in dealing with what is really a minor issue. Personally I feel we have better things to do with our time than deal with petty bureaucracy like this. So, guys, agree to accept it or undo it, and lets move on. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:34, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you SilkTork for the reply. To avoid possible WP:POINT, and since it really makes no difference, I have undone the RFC and left the box around it to simply archive it. We all have better things to do than to spend more time on something that makes no difference. AlbinoFerret 22:44, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

@User:SilkTork: You are right, of course, but my concern is not so much the minor matter of whether the RFC is closed with a dubious consensus statement (and don't get me wrong: that is a minor matter), but the somewhat more significant matter of whether half the lede should be devoted to Kenji's relationship with the Kokuchukai. I was going to discuss this with Dekimasu and either try to convince Ubikwit or open a new RFC to undo the last result, because what came out of it was not really a consensus statement, but a concession by me to you and Ubikwit. If we include Dekimasu and the other IP user who weighed in back in December, and don't include the two who didn't have specific proposals for the lede's wording, it was four (me, Wikimandia, Dekimasu and the IP) who were against naming the group in the lede at all, and two (you and Ubikwit) in favour of forming an original statement on his relationship with the group that takes up half of the present lede, solely because of a dubious interpretation of what was in the article body (again, it was a mischaracterization of what I wrote). I conceded to you ad Ubikwit because other factors were distracting me at the time and Dekimasu was nowhere to be seen; if I had a crystal ball I would have continued arguing as long as it took Dekimasu to intervene or for me to convince either of you. The recent close looks like a deliberate attempt to undermine this, and by User:AlbinoFerret's own admission, he formed the "consensus" statement based on your first comment in the RFC, not based on what the actual consensus was. This was a personal opinion that the close's timing and the dubious consensus wording looked like an attempt to undermine recent edits, even though I acknowledged it clearly could not have been (as I repeatedly stated above: "no-doubt unintentional", "I'm certain this is just a good-faith misunderstanding", "Perhaps User:Cunard's listing was a good-faith mistake based on some external RFC listing", ...). It was a duo of good-faith, if highly-misguided, mistakes by Cunard and AlbinoFerret. I don't appreciate other users choosing to ignore when I clearly state that I know they did not have ill intent and repeatedly accuse me of violating AGF: this is itself a minor AGF violation, although one I will not pursue any further. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:16, 19 April 2015 (UTC) (Edited 13:40, 19 April 2015 (UTC) )

@User:AlbinoFerret: Thank you. I hadn't noticed your above post before responding to SilkTork. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:17, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri88 I suggest you strike the sentence saying I said I formed consensus based on one response, because I said no such thing. It is misrepresenting what was said WP:TALKNO. In fact I suggest you strike the entire post and is is contrary to AGF. AlbinoFerret 02:29, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

AlbinoFerret How about this? I had actually misremembered who had stated that your consensus statement was a restatement of SilkTork's initial comment, and thought it had been you. I don't think it was a misrepresentation of the actual wording of the close. This was in reference to the now defunct edit here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:38, 19 April 2015 (UTC) (Struck 13:40, 19 April 2015 (UTC) )

Done. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:40, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Reference to Kokuchukai in lede

Okay, now that the other stuff has mostly wound down, I'm bringing this back for discussion. The previous RFC was clouded by several other, unrelated issues, and in order to bring it to an end as early as possible I made a concession that violated WP:WEIGHT and WP:POINT. One user suggested that because the group is mentioned in the body it should be mentioned in the lede, and one other user agreed. I disagreed, and since I am the one who added the reference to the group in the body I think I'm a pretty good judge of what I meant by what I wrote. Three other users (only one of whom commented on the RFC itself) agreed with me that there should be no reference to the group in the lede. Two other users who did post in the RFC had no solid proposal for what the lede should actually say. One of the latter has since claimed that the RFC was about nationalism and that my editing this article is about my own ideological bias. Given my consistent and thorough critical analysis of the broadest possible range of sources throughout every talk page discussion that has taken place on this issue so far, this is obviously not a tenable claim.

I'm removing the sentence I added to the lede as a concession to the former two users, since (even if I myself had sincerely supported the "summary") it was not consensus wording, and only supported by a minority of participants in the discussion. Further discussion, if anyone still disagrees, can take place here.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:20, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

And I have restored the sentence, because the reasons for removing it were basically, laughable. There had been a consensus to have the material included, and the fact that one editor, who as per the article talk page archives and discussion at noticeboards, has a noticeable objection to the inclusion of the material on the basis of reasons which are themselves not in accord with policies and guidelines wants it removed. It will stay included until and unless there is consensus to remove it.

A more reasonable approach would be to develop the length of the lede, which according to policies and guidelines can be up to four paragraphs in length, to do a better job of summarizing the article. The lede is supposed to summarize the content of the article. There is, at present, a section five paragraphs long out of a basically 20 paragraph article, dealing with his religious beliefs. To have no mention of that material in the lede is obviously making the lede clearly fail to do its one and only purpose, which is to summarize the content, as it basically removes any mention of 1/4 of the total content of the article (by paragraph count) from the lede. The fact that anyone would think such an edit even remotely acceptable as per policies and guidelines not unreasonably raises or keeps alive questions regarding the basic competency of certain individuals to adhere to policies and guidelines, and can not unreasonably be seen as being perhaps motivated strictly by the pre-existing opinions of that individual, which have been rather clearly displayed in the prior dicussions of this topic. John Carter (talk) 15:26, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: Per my above post, and per the extensive prior discussion, "consensus", if there is any, is to leave the mention out of the lede. Even if Wikipedia was, as you seem to believe, a democracy where each "vote" counts even if no valid policy- or source-based argument is made, it would still be 4-2 against. And even if you want to throw your own weight behind including that wording in the lede (you never hinted that up till now that you were in favour of it), it would still be 4-3 against. That is not a "consensus".

If you think we really must expand the lede, how about "He was a devout believer in the Lotus Sutra, and his conversion to Nichiren Buddhism caused a degree of strife with his Pure Land family, especially his father." This is a very reasonable summary of the section of the article that I wrote. The fact that only one paragraph out of twenty in the article discusses the Kokuchukai means that, by your own stated logic, devoting 50% of the lede to it is inappropriate. (I would appreciate you refrain from telling me what I meant when I wrote what I did, by the way.)

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:32, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Additionally, this edit summary is turning the policy on consensus on it's head: consensus is needed to make radical changes to previously established consensus wording, or introduce new and controversial claims; undoing one's own unilateral addition of material can't possibly require "consensus". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:37, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

(multiple e-c's later) That's nice. However, please realize that your already clearly stated personal biases about this topic are a serious concern here. I hope you will understand that it would be no more appropriate for you to change the nature of the content of the lede to reflect your statement above than it would be to continue to remove content which had already received at least tacit consensus for existing. There is no rush to make such changes, and it would certainly be reasonable for you to wait for some further input, or perhaps request further input from others, which would be much more in keeping with the spirit of the wiki.

Additionally, this edit summary is turning the policy on consensus on it's head: consensus is needed to make radical changes to previously established consensus wording, or introduce new and controversial claims; undoing one's own unilateral addition of material can't possibly require "consensus". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:37, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Consensus is also generally required when one individual who has already rather clearly stated a strong personal POV regarding the topic seeks to change content to reflect his own clear POV. Actually, common sense rather indicates that as well. Your refusal to make any sort of attempt to address what would seemingly be the most obvious solution, to make the lede more adequately do its job and adequately reflect the nature of the following content, is noticed, with some obvious regrets and, frankly, bewilderment. Your refusal to even address the matter of the lede adequately summarizing the content, and the nature of the existing content, is also noticed. The consensus of policies and guidelines regarding the nature of the lede trumps all the opinions regarding local consensus, and the removal of the appropriate information is on that basis more or less contrary to policy and guidelines, which take priority over local consensus. It also calls to mind again the fact that you as an individual have already clearly expressed a rather strong POV regarding that topic, and that, on that basis, there is perhaps at least sufficient reason to believe that given your own clear biases regarding this matter the best person to make any such changes, or judgments about such changes, would probably be someone other than you.

And, as per our guidelines regarding editors with clearly established POV regarding topics, such as, in this case, you, it is also generally requested that they seek input from individuals who do not have those biases, in the hope of seeking less biased input. You are free to pursue that measure, as you are free to edit the lede to do an even remotely adequate job of summarizing the content, which it clearly grossly fails to do at present, and to make other changes, but, without consensus of editors who do not share your rather clearly stated purely personal biases regarding that particular aspect of this subject. But, short of that, it is also generally very strongly advised that individuals do not make edits which clearly support their own personal biases when there are other, existing, policies and guidelines in play, which in this case include the distressingly bad job the lede in its current condition does of even remotely adequately summarizing the content of the article. John Carter (talk) 15:50, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

P. S. Also, I note that your insistence on adding new information in quick order has caused the above edit to be in edit conflict with your additions to remarks, including adding a separate subsection below as a part of this section, three or four times. If it isn't asking too much of you, it is sometimes considered a good idea to try to get your statements together in advance, and even start new sections by starting new sections in the generally acceptable manner, rather than as additions to already existing sections. John Carter (talk) 15:55, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Please elaborate on my "already stated personal biases". You think that because I have checked reliable sources and seen how they cover the subject, and want Wikipedia to cover the subject in the same manner, that qualifies as a "personal bias"? Almost every single editor who has commented on this issue has checked the sources and seen that (1) almost no one says Kenji was a "nationalist" based on his religious affiliation, and (2) almost no one believes Kenji's relationship with the Kokuchukai was a significant influence on either his religious convictions (he had converted to the faith of the Lotus Sutra years earlier) or on his writings. I find it hard to believe that this article still doesn't state anywhere that only one of Kenji's stories was ever published in his lifetime, yet editors familiar with the topic are being forced to waste so much time and effort discussing this extremely peripheral point. You are clearly not familiar with this topic and are not here to help improve the article, so why are you even here? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:48, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

@JC: You don't seem to want to answer my question regarding your repeated accusations that I have POV problems with this article. If you are not going to provide evidence for this accusation, I would ask you to kindly stop repeating it. Since you have told me not to post on your talk page you can take this as a formal warning that further personal attacks along these lines will result in further action. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:24, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri88 your comment above once again raises rather obvious competence issues about you. There are no "formal" warnings around here. And raising questions about why you so obviously have consistently argued against inclusion of material regarding the subject's membership in a group because you explicitly equate that membership with "nationalism" raises questions as to why you believe that implication is so important as to not give reasonable converage to the verifiable information. Your lack of competence in several matters of policies and guidelines is a problem, as is your repeated arguments against verifiable content on the basis of at best tangential issues. I am unaware of anyone with any particular understanding of policies and guidelines around here who would consider such statements personal attacks, although you seem to explicitly count them as such. Personally, if matters related to this article to go to ANI or ArbCom, I have a very strong feeling that I would not be the person who would most object to the results of the review. John Carter (talk) 19:18, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Theory that Kenji was a nationalist in the body

I removed the sentence about the fringe theory that Kenji's association with the Kokuchukai means he was a nationalist. One scholar's view is one scholar's view, and when said scholar states right up front that no one else talks about it, that means his opinion doesn't belong on Wikipedia. I stated this view on the talk page when I first added the section, and no one has disagreed with me. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:44, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

The heading of this section does if nothing else clearly demonstrate the nature of the problem. Hijiri does not mention the nature of the content in question, which is the membership in an organization, but in the heading jumps to a conclusion regarding that which is not absolutely necessarily 100% supported by the nature of the content. Not everyone who is necessarily a member of a group also necessarily agrees with every single aspect of the group's teachings. I think there were at least a few Nazis according to the records who demonstrate that. Your apparent inability to not instantly equate the group membership with being a nationalist, and your insistence on saying that content which is demonstrably adequately sourced has to be removed because, in your opinion, it also necessarily says something else which is not explicitly stated, raises some questions regarding your capacity to deal with this topic rationally, and regarding your own rather obvious biases regarding this matter. John Carter (talk) 15:52, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

This section is about what the heading says: the quoting of Iguchi's fringe theory that Kenji's association with the group makes him a nationalist in the body of the article. The diff I cited in the first line is me removing the sentence in question. It is not about the datum you claim (Kenji's membership in the group itself), but about Iguchi's unique extrapolation from this datum. The source itself clarifies that its author considers Kenji himself to have had nationalist leanings, but that virtually no other sources share this view. How do you not understand this? Also, you do not have the authority to tell me which of my own edits I am allowed undo and which I am not; I wrote the sentence in question, and when I did I speculated on the talk page that I might have been in the wrong to add it to the article despite its blatant WP:FRINGE status. I have since concluded that my talk page concern was right and my article edit was wrong. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:10, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Lede discussion

I personally find the existing last clause of the lede, specifically, "and what influence (if any) this had on his life and work' seemingly perhaps unsourced, and, very possibly, contrary to the existing text of the article. We have later in the article a specifically cited claim, "but the group's website claims the influence of Nichirenism (the group's religio-political philosophy) can be seen in later works such as Ame ni mo Makezu," which does not have any refuting material indicating that the claim is wrong. On that basis, the existing text of the article proper seems to, at least at this point, contradict the possibly unsourced claim in the lede. If the source which has recently been added to the lede does not specifically include the material indicating the lack of clarity as to what (if any) influence his membership had on his life and work, then I believe that there are both grounds for removing the clause as unsupported, or, at least, to move that clause to a separate section.

This is, of course, over and above the existing fact that a one-paragraph lede is, as has already been stated, clearly failing to summarize the content of the article. Perhaps it might make more sense to stop arguing about what to exclude from the lede and more of a visible effort to make the lede conform to its more important purpose, which is summarizing the content of the article? John Carter (talk) 17:57, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

If a religious group's website says "other people say he left our group and he was never really that involved, but we can clearly see our grou['s influence on his writings", then we don't need another external source to contradict it. Also, could you please comment on the above-demonstrated fact that hardly any sources discussing Kenji even mention the group, and those that do almost universally imply his relationship with the group was superficial at best? None of the users arguing in favour of keeping the Kokuchukai article in the lede seem to actually have checked the sources, other than one cherry-picked article about his relationship with the group. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:40, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

You are free to take that question to WP:RSN or WP:NPOVN. However, given your own regularly expressed personal opinions about the matter, it is I believe very, very obvious that the last person who should make a decision about that matter is you. Also, in all honesty, unless the sources specifically support the contention, the material may well violate WP:OR and more or less require being removed in any event. Rather than continue to engage in discussion which does not meet the standards of what is and is not acceptable enough for content to be added, perhaps you could better spend your time in finding good sources which meet RS standards which specifically support the contention? It may be that the citation does, but, having not reviewed the article, I cannot say one way or another, and it would be useful for you in your position to have some source which specifically and clearly supports the contention of the last clause. John Carter (talk) 23:56, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

@User:John Carter: Why on earth would I post on those noticeboards to get you to comment on the previously examined evidence on this point!? As to whether "the website claims X but reliable source Y says not X" qualifies as OR (SYNTH?), under other circumstances I might be inclined to agree with you, but given that I added essentially the same thing to the Kokuchukai article and another user explicitly supported it, removing it from this article as OR but leaving it in that article is weird. I'm sure you agree. Anyway, reliable sources that say "Kenji left the group", "Kenji grew apart from the group", "Kenji rejected Tanaka's nationalist agenda" or "Kenji became 'independent' of the group" are in no short supply -- virtually every source discussing Kenji's relationship with the group seems to say one of these things. That Kenji rejected the group's nationalistic views is explicitly stated in those words, in English, on p198 of the source attached to it in the Kokuchukai article. Ironically, the fact that he rejected the group's nationalist agenda is one of the less verifiable claims about his biography, it seems, because hardly any sources discussing him even use the word "nationalism" anywhere. This is not, as you persist in saying, my "POV" -- if you continue to ignore the numerous times I have stated that my life would be no better or worse regardless of what this Taisho writer's political/religious views were, I will take this as an assumption of bad faith and respond appropriately. Additionally, the fact that you have admitted to engaging in off-wiki contact with users who don't seem to like me, combined with the fact that you seem to be commenting furiously on this page without having actually read any of the previous discussion yourself, gives me pretty good reason to doubt your good faith in this matter.

Please stop dodging my question and tell me: Do you reject the previous consensus that "Kenji was a nationalist" does not belong on this page because it is a fringe view and hardly any sources even mention it? Have you even read the previous discussions? If so, what is your opinion on the fact that hardly any sources discussing Kenji even mention the Kokuchukai? If not, did you know that hardly any sources discussing Kenji even mention the Kokuchukai?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:21, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

In answer to your first question, beyond the extremely explicit and unfounded accusation that the only purpose would be to get me to comment, I guess I have to indicate to you that it would be for getting other editors, not necessarily myself, who may have a much better grasp of policies and guidelines than you display in your extremely prejudicial comment above to comment on how to apply policies and guidelines. There is more than a little reason to believe your own grasp of them is perhaps at best inadequate. Your statement that it is not your POV may be true, but I cannot believe that any individual who has any sort of grasp and policies would so absolutely link being a member of an organization with being a nationalist, as you have obviously done with the title of a thread earlier on this page. The fact that there is good reason to believe your grasp of policies and guidelines may be at best inadequate, coupled with your apparent insistence in drawing SYNTH/OR conclusions about the facts and presenting that SYNTH/OR as the primary question, which is also itself inherently problematic, continue to raise questions regarding your ability to edit the content here reasonably and also, unfortunately, your basic competence to understand and adhere to the policies and guidelines of the project. John Carter (talk) 15:33, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

I asked you to comment on something. You said that I could ask that question on RSN or NPOVN. How is this an "extremely explicit and unfounded accusation"? Also, the responsibility for getting other editors who agree with you to comment is yours, not mine. Enough editors have already sided with me in this dispute over the last year that I don't need yu to agree with me in order to revert you. Additionally, how is it "SYNTH/OR" to say that the website continues to claim Kenji (it does) and that other sources say he left the group (they do)? And you still haven't ansered my question. Also, have you been receiving off-site emails requesting that you comment here in someone's stead? Are you engaging in IBAN-violation meatpuppetry? If not, how do you explain your suddenly taking such an interest in this page when up till now you had only commented once, briefly? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 22:31, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

You said, and I quote, "Why on earth would I post on those noticeboards to get you to comment on the previously examined evidence on this point!? " The quetsion is both obviously prejudicial and frankly irrational. You seem to be rather obviously saying that the 3-2 majority support, which obviously didn't include you, is somehow something that you can overlook on the rather dubious claim that it does not constitute a consensus. If you believe that, then your reasonable option would be to start an RfC on what should be included. It is OR and frankly dare I say incompetent for you to argue that his leaving the group somehow supports the contention that the material included in the article that you keep reverting doesn't belong. Despite your obvious insistence that your question is somehow the only factor to take into account, you will find that policies and guidelines, such as SYNTH and OR, take priority over the sometimes obviously straw man questions biased editors sometimes ask to attempt to support their own positions. I regret to say that you seem to my eyes to be displaying an unfortunate tendency toward a mental form of tunnel vision which can be and often is extremely problematic. And, now, I have not been receiving any e-mails requesting my involvement. Have you been sending e-mails or other messages to recruit individuals to your side? I am taking an interest because, frankly, I believe your conduct to date has been irregular, contrary to policies and guidelines, and rather obviously to my eyes being taken to support your own view of the topic in question, which does not seem to be in full accord with either the majority opinion of academia or even of the previously involved editors. Despite what some might see as a rather recurring tendency toward paranoic thinking, I am involved because (1) any page I edit is automatically added to my watchlist, and (2) I have seen edits which seem to my eyes to be out of accord with basic policies and guidelines. It is I think reasonable to watch pages which are subject to problematic editing, and I have tended to do so throughout my history as an editor here. John Carter (talk) 22:52, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

John Carter, how many sources do I need to cite that specifically say he was not a nationalist before it stops being "OR"? And please explain to me how it can be OR to not include a claim in the article. 182.249.7.239 (talk) 00:30, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

By the wqy: "the 3-2 majority support"? Whose numbers are those? I would assume "3" refers to SilkTork, Ubikwit and yourself, but for the fact that nothing in your RFC comment remotely indicated that you supported the "with nationalist leanings" wording. If you are to be counted based on your post-close actions, then we would need to include Dekimasu because of his/her clearly stated view both before and after the RFC, and maybe even the IP before the RFC and Sturmgewehr88 after. Add me and Wikimandia and that's five in the "no mention of the group in the lede" against you and two others. And what of last June's RFC? Your argument hinges entirely on extrapolations made on number-crunching, and the most logically acceptable extrapolations are not even on your side. Let alone the fact that I was the wordsmith behind the wording you are upholding and I have changed mh mind about it. 182.249.15.106 (talk) 07:38, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri, please read WP:IDHT. Rather than induolging in your favored tactic of pure repetition, perhaps you could actually respond to the question I asked, specifically indicating where you have provided the source in which it is said that he is not a nationalist. That would be useful. Your ongoing tendency to indulge in mindless insults without directly answering the question I asked, regarding where you actually provided the evidence, would be actually useful, if you had any interest in that sort of thing of course.

ALso, you might be interested in noting that an academic source, specifically an academic journal, was provided to support the contention, by SilkTork I believe. Actually, it is generally agreed that consensus qua consensus is rather less important than consensus based on other extant policies and guidelines. As such, the consensus based on the evidence provided takes priority. If, of course, you wish to take this matter to arbitration, believe me, I would welcome giving the ArbCom a full record of everything I have received and gathered myself regarding your conduct in this and in other recent instances. John Carter (talk) 16:57, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Continuing WP:OWN and WP:POV issues with Hijiri88

I have once again reverted changes made by Hijiri88 without consensus, which have tended to be to remove or downplay any information which he believes might, perhaps incorrectly, label the topic as a "nationalist," apparently because he as an individual objects to the subject being described in that way, and I believe that the time may be coming to either request page protection or take the matter to ANI if it continues. Despite the repeated statements by Hijiri on this page clearly indicating that he has WP:OWN issues with this page, User:SilkTork in his comments above said that it would need to be established that speculations about the lack of importance of the subject's involvement with the group would need to be established for us to say that the degree of importance was questioned. To do otherwise would be to violate WP:SYNTH. It honestly does not matter particularly much if others "don't mention something at all" in our determinations of content. I know of several individuals from US history whose involvement with certain groups or activities is regularly downplayed because the views of the nature of some of those groups, like the Freemasons, has changed over time and some people might reflexively read something that may not have been something the people of the time saw to be legitimate in any declarations about their involvement today. There is at least one source, supplied by SilkTork, indicating the potential involvement. If that source does not itself say something to the clear effect of ", though it is unclear for how long, and what influence (if any) this had on his life and work," then that material is OR/SYNTH and should be deleted. In fact, what SilkTork said above is, and I quote, "Once we have material in the main body detailing the affiliation, speculation on its importance, and the counter speculation that it wasn't important, then a summary of the situation should appear in the lead: "He was a member of the Kokuchukai, a Nichiren Buddhist organisation with nationalistic leanings, though it is unclear for how long, and what relevance this had on his life and work." You then use the main body to explain more fully this statement." The important thing to notice there is the somewhat summarized statement, "Once we have material... detailing... the counter speculation that it wasn't important." The requirement to qualify as "counterspeculation" would not be not discussing it much, but specific speculation of a rather direct nature that it was not of any particular importance. Having read the article, I don't see anything to specifically indicate that in a way explicitly addressing it, and, without that, it would qualify as a violation of WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH for our article to say something which is not specifically supported by the sources themselves.

Also, the WP:LEADLENGTH guideline indicates that for articles of 15K or longer, a lead of two to three paragraphs is often reasonable. At this point the article weighs in, barely, at just over 15K, indicating a one paragraph lead may not be enough. It is certainly possible to expand the lead to two paragraphs to do a better job of summarizing the content. John Carter (talk) 15:48, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: I see as much ownership from you as I do from him (i.e. none). And even in the above comment you admit that Kenji is "perhaps incorrectly" labeled as a nationalist, and turn around and say that it's wrongful POV pushing to remove such labeling? I would also implore you to read the sources which, judging from you comments in previous sections, you seem to have not read. I do, however, agree that there may be a SYNTH issue, but all Hijiri needs to do is provide a source explicitly denying that Kenji was a nationalist and your whole argument falls apart. Also, if you really insist that the lede needs to be expanded, why don't you just do it yourself? ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 21:52, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

And I see an editor who hasn't looked at the article, which so far as I can remember has never specifically labeled the subject as a nationalist. Saying one is a member of a nationalist organization does not necessarily mean that every member is. And I would love to see him provide the source, but I haven't seen him or you do so yet, and it is generally considered proper etiquette to provide the sources before or at least concurrent with making the appropriate changes, not to make them on the presupposition that such sourcing exists. In fact, that sort of action is, more or less, contrary to policy. If he can provide the sources to support his contention, or if you or others could, I would love to see them. Regarding your own final sentence, what exactly have you done to follow your own advice? John Carter (talk) 22:30, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

John Carter, "so far as I can remember has never specifically labeled the subject as a nationalist" is either gross incompetence on the part of someone who is reintroducing problematic material to this page with no conception of the history of the page, or a deliberate attempt to bait me into violating my IBAN by explaining said history to you. If the latter, I won't take the bait, and will merely tell you to withdraw from this page immediately per WP:TE. If the former, I'll just tell you to withdraw from this page until you learn to read. 182.249.7.239 (talk) 00:25, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Please refrain from completely irrational personal attacks such as the above and provide evidence to support your contention, or refraining from engaging in such incompetent allegations as the above. If you are going to say that the article has called him specifically a "nationalist," and that wishing to remove material from the article on the basis of the article specifically describing him as a nationalist, then it is incumbent on you to point out where that is taking place. But there is nothing in the article as it stands to justify such a contention, If you are referring to this edit, then there are extremely serious issues of your own perceptions involved, because describing a group and describing a member of that group are not the same thing. I am sorry if your own issues of competence are once again highlighted by the above comment, but you have to realize at some point that a description of a group is not in fact necessarily in all cases automatically a description of every individual in it. Honestly, if there is any gross incompetence involved in these statements, as you indicated here, it would seem to be your own. John Carter (talk) 00:34, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: not sure if that counts as editing to make a WP:POINT, but I just "followed [my] own advice" and expanded the lede to meet LEADLENGTH and your own definition of a lede. It only took me about 20 minutes to do it. Was it too difficult to do it yourself? I'm sure that in the amount of time it took you to write these lengthy comments (where you complained about the lede not meeting your standards) you could have easily corrected the problem yourself. And if you think what I wrote is still not up to your standards, then I would just ask you, again, to fix it yourself instead of reverting it and complaining about it. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 03:10, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

John Carter, if you are legitimately unaware that between January and June of last year this article described Kenji as "a Nationalist", and that the resulting 15-month sitshtorm you are continuing right now was a direct consequence of that, then you are indeed incompetent and should not be editing this article. This is no more a personal attack than when you say the same to me, and probably much less given that I seem to have been the only one actively attempting to improve this article during said 15 months. Anyway, please explain why you suddenly have taken such an interest in this article despite very clearly having no knowledge of or interest in the topic. Answer my goddamn question already. 182.249.15.106 (talk) 05:56, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri, if you are legitimately unaware that old arguments from prior months are no longer relevant to current discussions if they do not directly relate to current content, then there are extremely serious grounds for questioning your own competence as well. I also note that you seem to very rarely address matters of substance, instead rather obsessively indulging in complete irrelevant personal attacks which is in no way an aid to present discussion. Let me be blunt. We are here to discuss the article as it stands. We are not here for you to engage in ill-founded, tempermental, self-righteous insults of others to avoid dealing with issues of current content. Such behavior rather clearly violates talk page guidelines as per WP:TPG and can extremely easily be seen as being attempts at WP:IDHT. We are not here to allow you to continue to dredge up old arguments. If you cannot deal with matters relating to the current issues at hand, please refrain from commenting, as such comments as the above are clear violations of multiple conduct guidelines, and such violation of conduct guidelines seems to be a persistent and obvious problem of yours. So stop the obnoxious personal attacks, and if possible, repeat your damn question. With all your completely irrelevant blather and frankly incompetent insults, it is very hard to see where in your endless stream of personal attacks you ever actually raised a reasonable question. Repeat it, and if possible in a way which would generally be considered acceptable from an apparently purported adult, and stop your own seemingly incessant violations of basic conduct guidelines. Should they continue, even once, believe me, I am very, very willing to take you to ANI for input regarding your regular abuse of talk pages. John Carter (talk) 15:27, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

John Carter, you were arguing that I should refrain from removing references to nationalism from the lede because "Kenji was not a nationalist" is my POV, and that I hadn't cited any sources that specifically stated Kenji was not a nationalist. Then when I cited a source that specifically said this, you suddenly U-turned and insisted that you had not been arguing this, and started claiming that no one had ever claimed that Kenji was a nationalist in the article. When I pointed out to you that you wrong on this point you started accusing me of engaging in general discussion of Kenji unrelated to the article. How is this not tendentious editing? Were you legitimately unaware that sources already cited in this dispute said that Kenji was not a nationalist when you asked for sources that Kenji was not a nationalist? Were you legitimately unaware that the article had called Kenji a nationalist when you insisted that no one had ever asked for the article to call Kenji a nationalist? Are you really that incompetent? Or are you only editing this article because you enjoy fighting with me? Or are you only editing this article because someone with whom I am IBANned emailed you and asked you to fight with me and your enjoying it is just a happy bonus]]? Seriously, answer my goddamn questions already. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:03, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Provide diffs, please. With your witless repetition of arguments and your obsessive insistence of violation the basic rules of conduct as per WP:TPG, and your mountains of abuse that you regularly hurl at others, I honestly cannot see them. I am unaware that you have ever provided a source that says he was not a nationalist. Where did you do so? This however I do know. He was apparently tied to a group which is at best marginally associated with what is generally referred to as Nichiren Buddhism, and that group has a strongly nationalist tendency. If he had been a devout believer in the Lotus Sutra, he logically would have more than likely embraced one of the Nichiren groups which hold the Lotus Sutra as of primary importance. And I also note your obvious insistence on basically regurgitating old and frankly currently irrelevant arguments. Let me try to say it in a way that perhaps even you can understand. We are here to discuss the article as it exists, not for you to continue to beat a dead horse as per WP:DEADHORSE regarding previous forms of the article. Please make a clear effort to try to understand that. Your insistence on refusing to let go of the past and to continue to attempt to continue resolved discussions reflects very, very poorly on you. Please make some more visible attempt to have your comments have something to do with the content and composition of the article as it exists. We cannot and never will have time to allow you to continue to argue old arguments in seemingly obvious attempts at violating WP:IDHT. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 18:36, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Holt article

I may be misreading it, but ... does Professor Holt not get the idea that the Kokuchukai's philosophy on GTNY from the writings of Ryumonji Bunzo, a member of the group? How is this different from "the group's website continues to claim him, and claim a direct influence on his famous writings, but others are skeptical"? Also, would Holt's views not be bettet cited in the GTNY article itself, rather than here? 182.249.16.35 (talk) 09:17, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Misreading, or reading into, perhaps, would seem to be appropriate; moreover, it is a secondary source in relation to Bunzo, and the opinions of Wikipedia editors on that is somewhat irrelevant.

I haven't read the entire source; have you? I did read the paragraph on p. 310 where he discusses Bunzo

In this article, I reframe Ryūmonji’s Kokuchūkai findings and Sugawara’s theory of the Kenji-Hosaka connection in order to demonstrate how Giovanni finds salvation in Ginga tetsudō no yoru through the teachings of Nichiren Buddhism.

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

If you read page 312-314, it seems pretty obvious that Holt's interpretation is a minority view -- the definitive statement of this consensus was made by Horio (1991), and the majority agree with him; Ueda (1992) disagreed with this, and Holt agrees with Ueda; Holt also cites Iguchi (2006), the original source for this article's claim "Miyazawa Kenji was a Nationalist", and agrees with him. But the one thing all of these sources have in common is that they are all on the fringe (you can see it as the "cutting edge" -- again, I don't think they are bad people engaging in biased scholarship and trying to defame a great Japanese writer) and they all admit they are on the fringe. So they can't be cited in the lede of our Kenji biographical article, and Holt in particular is inappropriate for this since he is not actually talking about Kenji in general, but about one particular novel. He isn't saying (as we presently claim he does) that "it is unclear for how long, and what influence (if any) this had on his life and work" -- he's saying "I think it is clear how long he was with the group and what influence it had on his work -- almost everyone else disagrees with me". The reason we use WP:TERTIARY sources like other encyclopedias to determine WP:WEIGHT is that to use fringe/cutting-edge sources like Holt and Iguchi for a statement of the scholarly consensus is to abuse them, since they don't agree with said scholarly consensus. The majority of encyclopedia articles don't talk about this debate at all, because in their view it's not a debate -- it's a scholarly consensus that maybe two or three people (at least one of whom has a religious bias) disagree with. At present Wikipedia is the only encyclopedia that doesn't conform to this standard, it would seem. That's why I have been saying throughout this discussion that we should not be citing the fringe view, or even mentioning the debate, in the lede at all, and if it is to be mentioned anywhere it belongs in the body. I added discussion of it, properly worded though maybe poorly sourced (again, Iguchi's PhD thesis was not published in a respectable academic journal -- it passed the bar at his university for following the rules of a PhD thesis, although it certainly would not have if he tried to present his view as the scholarly consensus, which thankfully he did not), to the body, and then someone else came along and (without actually checking who had added this body reference and why) insisted that since it was in the body it should be in the lede. Unfortunately, the summary statement in the lede at present is unattested in our sources, because almost all of them either ignore the theory in question or argue in favour of it while admitting that the majority disagree. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:34, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Page protected -- time to start discussing?

Okay, can we sit down and discuss the problems now? By "discuss" I mean actually read other users' comments and respond directly, rather than repeatedly saying "you have a POV", "You are arrogant", "Kenji was a nationalist, and you just can't admit it", etc.

1. There do not appear to be any reliable paper encyclopedias or other tertiary sources that mention the Kokuchukai's "nationalist leanings" in their articles on Miyazawa Kenji. I don't think we should, either.
2. Naming the group at all, aside from the "nationalism" question, in the lede is problematic, when hardly any sources on Kenji's bio give it anywhere near this much weight. Also, despite SilkTork saying in the RFC that the lede should "summarize the body", the description at least as written now is not so much an accurate summary of what the body says but an original composition, apparently sourced to an article by Holt whose existence I wasn't aware of when I wrote that portion of the body. I should know, since I wrote both.
3. Holt's article would be better cited in the GTNY article rather than the Kenji biography, since it discusses the influence of Tanaka's brand of Nichiren Buddhism on that novel, rather than providing a thorough discussion of the group and its philosophy in relation to Kenji's bio. It also specifically aligns itself on one side of a scholarly debate on whether GTNY contains any Buddhist influence at all, so citing it in the lede is dubious. Additionally, his article states directly on the ninth and tenth pages that his pwn view is WP:FRINGE and that the scholarly consensus is that Kenji had no interest in nationalism and left the group early on. Please note that when I say "fringe" I am not being derogatory. As I stated in my first post to this talk page, it just means "not widely accepted yet". But it still shouldn't be cited in the lede.

Can we please address these issues now? There are some other issues with a particular user's activities that need to be addressed as well if that user continues to post here, but I'd much rather just focus on these.

182.249.16.35 (talk) 09:43, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Also: Refusing to discuss on the talk page, and then unilaterally requesting page protection without any mention on this page because of "edit-warring"? Dick move. If a user wants to defend their version of the article, the proper way of going about it is to discuss on the talk page. Would I be right in guessing that a certain user is going to keep avoiding discussion here until the protection expires, and then when I edit the page I will be immediately reverted as an "edit warrior" once again? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:37, 25 April 2015 (UTC) (Edited 11:42, 25 April 2015 (UTC) )

Hijiri, believe me, you are the last person who should be complaining about unilateral action. If you want to raise the issue at ANI, do so, but if it is even remotely possible for you to confine your comments to the issues at hand, rather than perhaps obsessively engaging in personal comments about others, please make an effort to do so. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 15:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

No. That is not true. Every single comment by me on this talk page has included some suggestion on how to improve the article, what sources we should be using, what said sources actually say, and so on. When I asked you if you have actually read any of said sources, or if you have read any of the previous discussion that took place before you joined (you have cited some sort of "consensus" numerous times, but don't seem to know much about what that consensus was), or why you suddenly took such an interest in this page as soon as the recent IBAN discussion closed, you have generally ignored my questions, at one time telling me that I should go ask them at RSN or NPOVN. Go ask at RSN or NPOVN if you have actually read the sources! Please actually read my comments and engage in discussion, and stop making ad hominem attacks. If you do so, I will stop responding to your ad hominem attacks. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

The last two edits (not including the page protection) were expanding and improving the lede based on what John Carter said he wanted. This is in no way edit warring. That, coupled with the fact that he hasn't responded here since, is rude at best. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 11:53, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, it's not really JC's fault the page protection took over 24 hours. He did post here two or three more times (though none of posts have constituted "discussion" and have not addressed the article content issues in question) after placing the request -- probably could have mentioned it rather than constantly accusing me of having a "POV" that Kenji was "not a nationalist". Probably could have been more open that his request was made five minutes after his own latest revert as well.[5][6] Pretty obvious who is doing the "edit-warring" here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

And it is also extremely obvious who is engaging in attempts at distraction by insinuations and personal comments as well. Also, Hijiri, much as you might be incapable of understanding that, passing judgments about what is and is not "rude", particularly given your own history, is rather remarkable. You may find this hard to believe, but I haven't been logged on for some time, and most rational people know that it is difficult to comment when you aren't at a machine from which to comment. You might be in the eyes of some, single-mindedly obsessed with this topic, but that is not necessarily sufficient reason to believe everyone else in the discussion shares your degree of singular interest in it and checks it on a hour-by-hour basis. John Carter (talk) 15:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

No, as I mention below, you are the one who is refusing to engage in any rational discussion of the issues at hand because you know you will lose any rational argument argument based on what the sources say. You are focused exclusively on making off-topic ad hominem remarks about how I am "biased" (even though my expressed opinion conforms exactly to what most of the sources say), "obsessed", "psychotic", and so on... Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

This essay by Stone addresses the nationalism issue, on p. 197, for example:

Tanaka Chigaku's Religious Nationalism.

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:50, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: "and the poet Miyazawa Kenji (1889–1933) were drawn to Tanaka for a time, though they would ultimately reject his nationalistic views." That right there, from page 198, blows your argument out of the water. I'll add this to the article. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 23:53, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

... Or not, because the page is still protected for no real reason. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 23:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

@User:Ubikwit & User:Sturmgewehr88: I already cited the Stone article a few sections above, and John Carter ignored me because the Stone article didn't fit with his own views of Kenji. Or, rather, he pretended that he had never said that this argument was over whether Kenji was a nationalist and that I had been the one arguing over this. The Holt article also addresses the nationalism issue too, though, saying, in paraphrase, "I think Kenji was a devout member of the Kokuchukai until the end of his life, and a nationalist, but almost no one in the academic world agrees with me and the only ones who do are themselves members of the Kokuchukai." This is why I don't think we should be using the Holt source in the lede at all, and probably not citing him in the body of this article either: he states the scholarly consensus, but he himself radically disagrees with said consensus; I don't think the way he is being used in the lede, under those circumstances, is appropriate. Maybe re-adding the fringe "Kenji was a nationalist" theory in question that I removed a little while ago and replacing the Iguchi source (a doctoral thesis available for download on the university's website) with the Holt source (an article in a respectable scholarly journal)? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ubikwit: Can I take this as indicating that you don't mind removing the words "a Nichiren Buddhist organization with nationalistic leanings" from the lead, since the source you cite specifically says the subject rejected the group's nationalist agenda? If so, would it be safe to assume you wouldn't mind me removing it again once protection expires?

If not, I think we might be at another stalemate. I would be happy to talk over any content disagreements you and I have, but it's kind of difficult when you post less frequently than the guy constantly calling me a POV-pushing idiot. If you still disagree with the amendment, could you ask the Warlord of Mars to cool it down and leave me alone while this discussion continues? I promise not to say "Sturmgewehr88 agrees with me and John Carter left the discussion, so it's two-against-one in favour". If after discussion you and I still disagree we could start another RFC with The subject was a member of the Kokuchukai, a Nichiren Buddhist group with nationalist leanings. A small minority of sources consider him to have remained in the group until his death and the group's ideology to have influenced his writings, with the majority view being that he distanced himself from the group and rejected its nationalist agenda. Should the lede refer to the group as "a Nichiren Buddhist group with nationalist leanings"? Should "nationalism" be mentioned in the lede at all?

Note: The offer to cooperate on forming a new RFC question hinges on John Carter, who has not contributed anything meaningful to this discussion and has made a personal attack against me in every single post, withdrawing from the dispute. If it looks like John Carter is going to attempt to bias commenters by posting an RFC question that looks anything like any of his posts here over the past few days, I'm not going to support said RFC.

182.249.12.114 (talk) 11:05, 26 April 2015 (UTC) (Edited 11:13, 26 April 2015 (UTC) )

The fact that there is a statement that the subject rejected the nationalist agenda doesn't mean that the group didn't have one. Or am I missing something?

I think that it might be acceptable to simply mention his membership in the group in the lead and discuss specifics in the article, as there seem to be different views related to its significance, etc.]

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 14:48, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ubikwit: Basically, if you have the sentence say "he joined the Kokuchūkai, which has nationalist leanings" but don't say "but Kenji rejected the group's nationalist views" then the reader will assume that Kenji was a nationalist. You have to balance the sentence or remove it entirely to keep NPOV. As soon as the damn page protection expires we can properly balance it instead of removing it. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 17:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

We are in no way responsible for what editors may or may not conclude. We are responsible for adhering to policies and guidelines. I realize that you and Hijiri have a damn stupid insistence on using the word "damn" in at best dubious situations, but that, regrettably, does not counterbalance the fact that we are primarily obliged to look after our own conduct, and not to make predictions as to how readers will and will not jump to conclusions. If there is any real interest in improving the article in a real way, the best way to proceed would be to find or gather a list of articles in reference sources about this subject, and provide an indication of how long the entries in those reference works are, what they cover and to what extent they cover it. We would also, of course, have to take into account the nature of the source. A reference work on poetry or literature would be less useful to us in this article than an article on biography itself, for instance. That, again, is basic logic. Today I am attempting to work on other things, such as generating lists of such sources, but if anyone were actually interested in providing an indication on this page, preferably with a link to an online version, of what reference sources exist which discuss the subject and what they say, that would be useful. The various works listed at Bibliography of encyclopedias: general biographies#Japan and possibly some other works in the literature and national sections of other pages in that set would probably be a good starting point for indications of at least some highly regarded reference works. John Carter (talk) 18:45, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: Are you kidding me? The policy of WP:NPOV dictates that we are responsible for what readers may or may not conclude. If we have a sentence that implies that Kenji was a nationalist, and we have sources that say he was not, then we are in violation of that policy. Hijiri wants to remove the offending sentence, which you claim would be violating NPOV, but leaving the sentence as-is is no better. We should balance the sentence with "but Kenji rejected the Kokuchūkai's nationalistic views". I have two sources to back up this addition. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 19:17, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

I believe it may be more clear that you might be kidding yourself. There are other policies, and they are equally important, even if you are incapable of personally realizing that. One of them is WP:V. Read it. You appear to be making a to my eyes laughable argument that we are obligated to try to read the minds of those who might read the article. Considering how dubious the mental functions of some of the individuals here is, that is more than a little amusing. We do not have sources saying that Kenji was in no way a nationalist," although you are apparently incapable of making that fairly obvious distinction. As far as starting the RfC "for me," that is, again, a distortion of my previous statements. I did say that when requested page protection, granted, because I had not noticed that the previous discussion was itself an RfC. There is, to my eyes, no real point in starting another one so quickly, and I would not have started another one so quickly, or in such a frankly redundant. Also, I note that there is a claim that he was "not a nationalist," although that statement in the RfC is, of course, unsourced, again, to the surprise of no one. He objected to the extremely nationalist views the group took at later times, but that does not in any way mean that he was in no way a nationalist of a possibly less extreme sort. And it would be a clear violation of WP:OR, yet another policy I suggest you might acquaint yourself with, to say that because some people might come to possibly unwarranted conclusions that we have to violate policies of verifiability, and original research. You are apparently kidding me my your extremely amusing apparent incapacity to understand or perhaps reasonably apply all policies, not simply those that favor your own argument, and, while I acknowledge your obvious capacity as an absurdist comedian, I question whether this is the appropriate venue to engage in such witticisms. John Carter (talk) 16:23, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Related discussion

There is a discussion related to this page currently taking place at Wp:ANI#Ongoing gross incivility of Hijiri88. John Carter (talk) 15:10, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

RfC: How should this be worded?

There is a debate on the neutrality of the following sentence:

A devout believer in Nichiren Buddhism in the latter half of his life, he joined the Kokuchūkai, a Nichiren Buddhist organization with nationalistic leanings, though it is unclear for how long, and what influence (if any) this had on his life and work.

Should it remain the same, have "with nationalistic leanings" removed, have "Kenji rejected the Kokuchūkai's nationalistic views" added, or something else? keep in mind that Kenji was not a nationalist and there are sources for this. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 19:54, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

This phrase seems a bit WP:OR unless there is a source that specifically says that same thing. It's not appropriate to have such a vague statement for the introduction. If it is "unclear" what influence it had, if it had any at all, then most likely it had no substantial influence. —Мандичка^YO 😜 04:22, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

• Propose close as premature. It is generally considered reasonable to gather sources before proposing an RfC, and that has rather transparently not been done here. Also, it is very much worth noting that the phrase "Kenji was not a nationalist" is completely unsourced in this context, and a rather transparent, if perhaps unconscious, attempt to lead the responses. And the phrasing of the RfC is rather problematic as well, as it does not give any degree of reasonable indication of what "something else" might be. If I might be blunt, this RfC shows a remarkable lack of thought and preparation, and reflects rather poorly on the person who made such a rush to file it. Lastly, of course, by policies and guidelines, we are supposed to, in general, consult the relevant sources before filing an RfC, and I do not see any obvious attempt to do that before this filing.John Carter (talk) 22:18, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Passages from two sources

According to the following sources, it appears that there was an influence, but that is the subject of academic debate. The following two sources describe some of the relevant points.

[7]
Tanaka Chigaku's Religious Nationalism
The first person to reenvision the establishment of the kaidan in a modern context was Tanaka Chigaku (1861-I93I) As a young man, Tanaka had abandoned his training for the priesthood of Nichirenshu, the chief denontination ofNicltiren Buddhism, to embark on a career of lecturing and proselytizing as a lay teacher.
What he advocated was not the traditional Nichiren Buddhism of temples and priests but "Nichirenshugi [Nichirenism]," a popularized, lay-oriented Nichiren doctrine applicable to contemporary social realities. In particular, he saw Nicltirenshugi as providing a spiritual basis for Japan as a modem state, and "the fusion of Dharma and nation" (hokoku myi5gi5) would be his lifelong concern. In 1881 Tanaka founded the Rengekai (Lotus Blossom Society) in Yokohama to propagate Nichirenshugi ideals. It was reorganized in 1885 as the Rissho Aulcokukai (after Nicltiren's Risshi5 ankoku ron) and again in 1914 as the Kokuchilkai, or "Pillar of the Nation Society"(after Nicltiren's words, "I will be the pillar of Japan")…The literary figure Takayama Chogyu (1871-1902} and the poet Miyazawa Kenji (1896-1933} were drawn to Tanaka for a time, though they would ultimately reject his nationalistic views.
[8]
What is worse is that there is a tendency in scholarship on Kenji’s religious outlook to omit and gloss over Kenji’s specific ties to Nichiren Buddhism. Instead of creating a rounded understanding of Kenji’s faith, these scholars have promoted a view that Kenji’s faith was that of a “relationship” with a “timeless dehistoricized Buddhism,” as Iguchi has keenly observed (2006, 135). This general consensus has negatively shaped the reception of Kenji’s works as being generically Buddhist or generically religious, and, like Iguchi, I would argue it is deleterious to our understanding of Kenji’s works. For years, it has been far more politically correct to say Kenji created his own faith rather than try to examine how Kenji, a devout believer in the Lotus Sutra and, most likely, a lifelong Kokuchūkai practitioner of the faith, could write a story like Ginga tetsudō no yoru and how the story might then express those specific beliefs. Thus, the story sometimes has been taken to reflect the author’s “syncretic” view of religion even though he had not frequented Christian churches since he was an elementary school student, far from the time in the late 1920s and 1930s when he was writing the story. One can trace back the origins of this bias by looking at the influence Horio has had on the 1964 zenshū (mkdz) and all subsequent editions. In mkz, the editors make such a claim, asserting Kenji quickly moved on from his “fanatic” phase after 1921.10 This claim is noticeably toned down from a statement originally made in 1966 by Horio, who was an earlier zenshū editor:

[Kenji’s] faith remained steadfast in his life and he did continue to create works of Lotus literature, but as for his involvement with the Kokuchūkai, after his initial joining [in 1920] it gradually changed and cooled. He became critical [of it] but that never appeared on the surface [of his writing]. That was because the Kokuchūkai’s activities were becoming more focused on nationalism [kokutaishugi 国体主義] and they were carrying out a role in making the faith more fascist … Kenji remained a devoted believer in the Lotus Sutra, but separated himself from the Kokuchūkai and attempted to single-handedly create his own beliefs. (Horio 1991, 157)

Ueda Akira criticized Horio, pointing out that he offers no evidence whatsoever to support his claim that “Kenji separated himself from the Kokuchūkai and attempted to single-handedly create his own beliefs” (Ueda 1992, 633). Moreover, Ueda, through his research on the Kokuchūkai house organ, Heavenly Task People’s Gazette (Tengyō minpō 天業民報, hereafter htpg), finds that the Kokuchūkai did not become more fascistic over time, as one might infer from Horio’s description, but one does find that in the years of Kenji’s most enthusiastic and “fanatic” embrace of the organization the tabloid ran articles on the front page asserting the close relationship between Nichirenism and Japanese imperialist expansion. Ueda charged that Horio twisted the facts and overlooked evidence. “This is not the attitude,” Ueda writes, “one expects from a scholar of the humanities” (1992, 634). Despite Ueda’s complaint, even today there is a notable bias in research on Kenji’s works where mainstream scholars, following Horio’s lead, acknowledge yet do not explore the depth of Kenji’s ties to the Kokuchūkai.
The next month, on 18 July 1918, Kenji kept trying to persuade Hosaka to convert to the Kokuchūkai. Perhaps excusing his annoyingly persistent efforts or minimizing how much proselytizing Hosaka, as a new convert, would have to conduct, Kenji wrote that “For us, shakubuku is a very, very small part.” Shakubuku, or violent proselytizing, is one of the two methods that, according to chapter 2 of the Lotus Sutra, believers should use to spread its truth. As a member of Tanaka Chigaku’s nationalist Nichiren sect, the Kokuchūkai, Kenji was very familiar with the emphasis this lay Buddhist leader put on shakubuku as the only true method of spreading the faith in twentieth-century Japan, in an age of degraded Buddhism or Mappō.

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 05:41, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ubikwit: As I explained to you above, the second article you quote can't possibly be used to support the status quo of this article's lede, since it specifically states that the view that it had an influence on his writings is a minority, WP:FRINGE view. I am not biased toward fringe views. Holt, Iguchi and Ueda might well be right and history might vindicate them at some point down the line. But Wikipedia should not be claiming that just because three or four scholars, two of whom don't appear to publish in Japanese and another one of whom appears to have a religious bias, have disagreed with the consensus viewpoint, it doesn't mean we should be saying it "isn't clear" in the lede of our biography of Kenji. Even in the quote you provide, Holt states the consensus view, calling it a "bias" on the part of the majority of scholars. Fringe theories might get a sentence or two, balanced against the more mainstream view, further down the article, or they can be relegated to the articles on their proponents.

As for the Stone quotation: please stop and consider what any of that has to do with Miyazawa Kenji. If you want to cite Stone in our Tanaka Chigaku article for the claim that he was a nationalist: fire ahead; I won't stop you. But Stone mentions Kenji, the subject of this article, in exactly one short sentence, and it's the same sentence she says that, although the group was nationalistic, Kenji rejected the group's nationalistic views. She can't possibly be cited for a sentence that implies Kenji was a nationalist.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:40, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: I don't have a strong view on the "nationalism" issue as I am not well-versed on the subject of the article. However, it would appear that you have conveniently omitted a key term from the Stone statement:

they would ultimately reject his nationalistic views.

Though Stone does not examine the influence the group had on Miyazawa's writing, as Holt attempts to do with respect to one of the author's "major works", that doesn't mean there wasn't an influence. I don't see any specific statements calling into question the significance of the group, or even a source for the statement, "Some theorize that he left the Kokuchūkai on his return to Hanamaki". The significance of nationalism overall (vis-a-vis membership in the group) is even less clear, so I stated earlier that it might be sufficient only to mention his membership in the group in the lead, and describe what sources have to say regarding the impact of that in the body of the article, be it related to nationalism, "Nichirenshugi", Nichirenshu, Christianity, syncretism or whatnot.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 09:49, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

I concur with Ubikwit's call. Nishidani (talk) 10:52, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@Ubikwit, Nishidani: I interpreted the quoted clause (Ubikwit's emphasis, not Stone's, mind you) as saying that while Kenji was attracted to Tanaka's views on the Lotus Sutra and lay Buddhist practice, he had no interest in nationalism, and once he realized the group was nationalist he distanced himself from them. This interpretation is in accordance with the other sources and the rest of Stone's article. While your interpretation is possible, it doesn't jive with what Holt states as the consensus view that he didn't care about nationalism. Also, regarding the supposed lack of sources for some theorize that he left the Kokuchukai on his return to Hanamaki: why would you not be able to find a source, when I very clearly included the source in my edit as inline citation at the end of that sentence. The exact wording used by the source is 賢治は、帰郷してから国柱会とは遠ざかったという説をなすものがいる. If you want to change "left" to "grew estranged from" to be closer to the source's 遠ざかった, fire ahead. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:48, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

It is also worth noting that according to one of the sources Miyazawa's interest in Kokuchukai cooled as it became more nationalist. That leaves open the question as to whether he was in primary agreement with it when it was in its earlier stages, and less nationalist, but still, apparently, significantly nationalist. If he was in support of Kokuchukai's early, less-overwhelmingly-nationalistic views, that would still, not unreasonably, qualify him as a nationalist, although of not as extreme a nature as Kokuchukai was in later years. However, that would not make him other than a nationalist, just not as extreme a nationalist as the group became later. John Carter (talk) 16:07, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: That source is the quotation of Horio 1991, 157, in Holt 2014, 313. Holt radically rejected Horio's claims as having no basis in the primary sources. You also reject Horio's view. You now seem to opportunistically cherry-picking quotations that support your dubious interpretations of the other sources, even if none of the sources actually say what you want them to say. By the by, were you actually able to read Sturmgewehr's quotes below, before you rejected them out of hand for being too old? Would you like translations? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:48, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of this academic debate, it's really not appropriate to have such a vague statement in the introduction. It's very out of place. The intro does not need to summarize every single point in the article - it's an introduction, not a fifth-grade essay. And this point, as far as I can tell, is not really essential to who he was and why he was significant. —Мандичка^YO 😜 16:33, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Possibly. However, the lede is supposed to at least summarize the content of the article, as per WP:LEAD. Right now, we have a roughly 19-20 paragraph article, of which 4 paragraphs are devoted to his religious beliefs. It is pretty much required that content roughly constituting 20% of the article be in some way discussed in the lede. It may be that the existing section has undue weight, either to much attention or too little attention. But the best way to determine that would be by reviewing all the relevant reference sources, encyclopedic and otherwise. Until that is done, however, we have to assume that the content as is is appropriate. So, barring discussion and consensus about changing the nature of the existing content, it would seem that at least the equivalent of one sentence in an at present two-paragraph lede deal with the roughly 20% of the content by paragraphs of the existing article. John Carter (talk) 16:43, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

The sentence in question was based on SilkTork's attempt to summarize what one paragraph of the article looked like when he suggested it. The paragraph in question was unilaterally added by me, but I expressed concern at the time that it violated WEIGHT to be quoting a blatant fringe theory. No one at any time told me "don't worry -- it certainly belongs in the article". So I self-reverted last week, partly as a result of this dispute. The new wording in the body is by no means appropriately summarized by what is in the lede. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:41, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Really John Carter? You've said twice[9][10] that being in a nationalist group doesn't make Kenji a nationalist, and now you're saying that it does "qualify him as a nationalist"? You are truly a piece of work. And your "history of Asia" reference list that you're copy-pasting from external sources are either not in English or have to do with World War 2 and its aftermath, so I'd like to see just how many of these sources are remotely relevant to this discussion. The only source sofar provided that claims Kenji was a nationalist ends with, in paraphrase, "no one else in academia believes Kenji was a nationalist, but they're all wrong"; by definition WP:FRINGE. You are trying to keep the argument going for argument's sake. As you said earlier, stop beating a WP:DEADHORSE. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 16:54, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@Sturmgewehr88: You are apparently by the above comment at best dubiously capable of rational discussion, as I see nothing in it which to my eyes would qualify as "rational". ::::First, the sources I added relate to Japan in general, and are considered by the American Library Association in their most recent list of reference works as among the most useful for reference purposes. That, in the eyes of most, would, presumably, probably include post World War II Japan, as it is, you guessed it, a part of the history of Japan. I acknowledge I haven't checked myself which discuss this matter, because it took some time to go through the list. Rather than raise completely irrelevant comments in a rather transparent attempt to impugn others, maybe you could actually do something useful, and maybe look for them yourself? Or is that to much of an effort to expect from you?

That being the case, your continued involvement in this discussion may be problematic. You seem intent on putting words in the mouths of others, in quotes no less, despite the fact that such words were not spoken by me. That is a gross violation of fundamental civility, but under the circumstances I have to say that is in no way a surprise. I thank you for providing an increasing amount of evidence which could be used against you should this matter be taken to ArbCom, as I am becoming increasingly convinced would be appropriate, but I am far from sure it is in your own interests to indulge in such behavior. And I also note your continued insistence in phrasing comments about the purported nationalism of the individual in a way which is completely unrelated to the content in question, which does not call him a nationalist, but says he was a member of a nationalist group. There are, whether you as an individual are capable of understanding this or not, gradations in most human opinions. If you are even remotely possible of doing something that would be truly productive and useful, now might be a good time to demonstrate that. John Carter (talk) 18:49, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: Uh, no. I expanded the lede for you and I started the RfC for you, but I will not look through your list of sources for you. You've proven to me that you're willing to complain about something but not willing to fix it yourself. I have in fact done twice now something "truly productive and useful", what have you done besides complain about policy/guideline violations here and at ANI?

"Such words were not spoken by me". I have difs, you definitely said that. Don't say things that can come back to bite. And I would love you to take this to ArbCom so we can bring some real attention to this issue.

My phrasing makes it unrelated? The sentence currently implies that he was a nationalist, which you just admitted, although you oppose balancing it because "we are in no way responsible for what editors may or may not conclude" (which violates WP:NPOV). Also, if you actually read WP:LEAD, it says "the lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important points" (emphasis added). It does not say to summarize the entire article. I agree with User:Wikimandia, the lede now needs to be shortened. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 20:12, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

First, I apologize for not noting you actually did do something and I apologize for missing that. Beyond that, I can see no point in responding to comments which are clearly counterproductive, violations of talk page guidelines. Regarding taking this to ArbCom, we'll see on Thursday. Until then, honestly, I really don't see much of a purpose here. If you were to propose an alternative, by all means do so, but you seem insistent on refusing to do so. You have made no suggestions as to how to improve it, nor has Hijiri, and the lede does basically demand that everything be summarized in it, including the 20% of the article which relates to his religious beliefs. You also seem to believe that your view of implications takes priority over everything else, which I believe you will find, if you ask, is rather questionable, particularly if the material is otherwise in accord with other requirements. Now, if you can say that 20% of the existing content of the article contains no important points, well, then you clearly have objections to the content of the article. The appropriate way to deal with that would be through addressing it directly. If you wish to change it to something else, you are free to propose it. You have, however, pointedly refused to do so. That is a legitimate cause for concern, particularly since most of what you have said is fairly clearly in violation of WP:TPG, and, of course, ArbCom deals exclusively with problematic behavior, like violation of TPG. Swearing doesn't help, either. Like I said, wait until Thursday, because I'm kind of busy till then. But, also be aware that the request for ArbCom will be over all recent conduct by Hijiri88 primarily, and I rather tend to think that he would not like that. Regarding your sources below, you should realize this is the English wikipedia, and that it would be useful if you were to provide English text. Most people wouldn't need to be told that. I also believe it worth noting that the points of importance regarding other encyclopedic sources, which I welcome seeing, includes information on the length of the article, if it has any specific named sections, and so on, to provide an indication of the relative weight to be given in our article in terms of overall content. Again, most people wouldn't need to be told that. None of that is, of course, provided below, probably to the surprise of no one who has followed this conversation to date. John Carter (talk) 21:19, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Other sources

Here are some Japanese encyclopedia entries:

Mypaedia, 1990:

詩人，童話作家。岩手県生まれ。日蓮宗を信仰，[…]農民に対する深い愛情と，日蓮宗の信仰に基づく深い宇宙観に貫かれた浪漫的な作品を書いた。

Obunsha's Encyclopedia Epoca, 1983: また田中智学の国柱会に入信し，法華経への信仰を深めた。[…]法華文学の創作を志して[…]死期の迫ったのを悟るや「私の全生涯の仕事は此経典をあなたにおとどけして，その中にある仏意に触れて，あなたが無上道に入ることを」ということばを記した『法華経』１０００部を印刷して知友に分かつよう遺言して，３７年の生涯を閉じた。

Encyclopedia Japonica, 1971: 彼は在学中から日蓮宗を信仰していたが、二〇年には日蓮主義の信仰団体の国柱会に入会翌年一月には無断上京して筆耕・校正で自活しながら街頭布教をおこなうかたわら、文芸による大乗仏教の布教を決意し、月に三〇〇〇枚に及ぶ原稿を書いたといわれる。

Britannica International Encyclopaedia, 1975: しかも、生家は熱心な真宗信者であったので、幼年（一九一四）に法華経を読んで以降は常に座右におくようになり、一九二〇（大正九）年には日蓮宗の信仰団体である国柱会（田中智学主宰）に入会した。そして、父母の改宗を熱望したが入れられず、父この対立は深まるばかりであった。[…]父母に無断で上京した。[…]筆耕た校正で自活し、街頭で国柱会の布教などをした。[…]国柱会の高知尾智耀から文芸による大乗仏教の普及をすすめられたことで、賢治の創作への情熱はかきたてられた。

Encyclopaedia Heibonsha, 1985: 詩人，童話作家，農芸科学者，宗教思想家。[…]浄土真宗の濃密な信仰の中で育つ。1914年中学卒業，この年島地大等編《漢和対照妙法蓮華経》を読んで感動、終生熱烈な法華信者となる。20年ころから特に田中智学に傾倒、田中の主宰する国柱会に入会，父親にも日蓮宗への改宗を迫るが容れられず，21年1月無断出京，自活しつつ童話制作や布教活動に従事するが，8月に帰郷

Encyclopedia Nipponica, 1988:

詩人、童話作家、農芸化学者。農村指導者、宗教思想家。[…]哲学書、宗教書を耽読するようになった。[…]この秋、島地大等編『漢和対照　妙法蓮華経』を読んで激しく感動[…]二〇年、田中智学の国柱会に入会、父にも改宗を迫るがいれられず、翌年一月に突如無断状況、[…]布教活動等に加わり、[…]

And English encyclopedia entries:

Kodansha Encyclopedia of Japan, 2002: After a nine-month stay in Tokyo, during which he faithfully attended a Nichiren study group and wrote many children's stories, Miyazawa returned home to Iwate

I'll add more later. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 20:54, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

If those are the full length of the articles, then there are two real questions here. One of which is whether you have violated copyright, and that is something I have asked for input at over at WP:ANI. The age of the articles is also another concern, considering that the most recent one is 1990, 25 years ago. Academic views regarding such a recent topic can very easily change over that period. It is of course worth mentioning that many of those I linked to above and at the Bibliography of encyclopedias: history, and Bibliography of encyclopedias: general biographies, are more current, and would do a better job of indicating the current academic view of the topic, and that someone acting in good faith would almost certainly at least try to find information from them as well. John Carter (talk) 21:31, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: Whoops, I left the year off of the English encyclopedia, so the most recent is only 13 years old (what was that about not being responsible for what editors conclude?). Actually, being "someone acting in good faith", I looked at your sources after I added these, and Kodansha was one of them. The above quote from Kodansha (which is not the whole entry) calls the Kokuchūkai (without mentioning its name) a "Nichiren study group" and says nothing about nationalism. Maybe based on this source that you added to the list of history encyclopedias we should remove any mention of the Kokuchūkai from the lede and shorten it in the body? ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 22:56, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Hijiri88 here. I checked all the encyclopedias in the Iwate University Library (i.e., one of the best places in the world to study up on Miyazawa Kenji) that I could find, and emailed the relevant quotations to Sturmgewehr (we were discussing this a bit by email, and I wanted his opinion on which parts to quote). They are not the full-length articles. The articles are all several hundred characters long. The quotes provided are those portions relevant to the current dispute -- a spattering of references here and there, uses of the word "Kokuchukai" with no reference whatsoever to nationalism, in a coupla cases referring to Tanaka Chigaku by name, but nowhere making any reference to the group's nationalist philosophy having any influence on his writings. A few of them talk about Kenji trying to spread the faith through "Lotus literature" (法華文学, hokke-bungaku), but that is as close as they get. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:01, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

And by the way -- they also had a lot of English-language encyclopedias, and the only one that had an entry on Kenji was the Kodansha Encylopedia of Japan, which should be clear enough indication that if a claim appears prominent in English works but is not backed up by Japanese scholarship, it is by definition fringe. And Japanese scholarship does not talk about Kenji's relationship with the Kokuchukai or with nationalism anywhere near as much as some Wikipedia editors would probably like, or anywhere near as much as would usually be considered necessary to include it in the lede. Another "encyclopedia-like" general biographical reference work (probably the most widely respected in western universities where Japanese literature is concerned) is Keene's Dawn to the West, which devotes nine pages to Kenji and the only passage that mentions the Kokuchukai was quoted in full here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:11, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Also, Mypaedia and Britannica International Encyclopaedia are widely available in Japanese electronic dictionaries, online, and so on. If someone wants to check these more recent editions of these works and say whether they have been "updated" to include a more thorough discussion of Kenji's nationalist views, they are free to do so. Kotobank has Mypaedia at least. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:47, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Maybe you all didn't think to check Google, though, apparently. This page search for "'Kenji Miyazawa' encyclopedia" shows quite a few results in the Books section of Google search, including at least one article in the Encyclopedia of Religion and Nature which deals with the subject specifically. I won't have access to that book for at least a few days, given work schedule, but it is a very recent work and I have every reason to believe that, although it will almost certainly be for our purposes biased, like most specialist reference sources are which are specific to a given topic other than biography, the subject of this article. But that, and a few sources I was sent through the Resource Exchange, are ones I am going to have to take a few days to get through. Under such circumstances, I think it is reasonable for those who have such to send the material to others, to let them see what all is included. I believe it would be very useful if the information Hijiri recovered and sent to Sturmgewehr were sent to the others involved, like Ubikwit, and myself, and maybe anyone else who takes part in the discussion here. John Carter (talk) 01:01, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: Well, it would be a little pointless to forward that email to everyone who's taken part in this discussion since I literally copy-pasted all of the relevant information above (the same information that you accused of being a copyright violation and outdated). Plus the last time I took the time to do something "pointless" you left a belittleing and dickish comment[11], so I'm very reluctant to try again. The only thing I left off is that Hijiri has access to the Iwate University library (which gives him better access to Kenji Miyazawa material than you or I have) and he found a "dictionary of Miyazawa Kenji" and that he'll look at it in detail later. Also, if you will have access to the Encyclopedia of Religion and Nature in a few days, please post any relevant quote from its entry on Kenji Miyazawa. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:42, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Kenji Miyazawa and nationalism

Much as it might surprise quite a few people, there are actually quite a few sources specifically discussing the issues of Kenji Miyazawa and nationalism. They include:

• this source from the Asia Pacific Journal, March 20, 2009, which says, and I quote, that he was an "ardent follower of Kokuchakai", particularly noting that it does not say of Nichiren Buddhism but of Kokuchakai specifically.
• this article from Dharma World magazine, which says quoting "He may have been an ardent, even fanatic, believer in the Nichiren Sect of Buddhism, ..."

the journal Gengo to bunka 7 (2005) has an article by Eishiro Ito on "Nationalism in Ulsysses and Kenji Miyazawa's works"

The work "Introduction to the Lotus Sutra by Yoshiro Tamura" can be found on the web here, and it contains the very interesting statement, "Miyazawa's admiration for Tanaka and Nichiren was abnormally passionate, as can be seen in his letters... "I joined the Practice of Faith Division of the Pillar of the Nation Association. In other words, my life now belongs to Saint Nichiren. Thus I am now under the direction of Professor Chigaku Tanaka."

• From "Buddhism in the Modern World:Adaptations of an Ancient Tradition By Steven Heine, Charles S. Prebish" available here says Kenji was "drawn to Tanaka for a time, though [he] would ultimately reject his [Tanaka's] nationalist views." It is worth noting that it does not say he rejected nationalism per se, but rather specifically Tanaka's individual nationalist views. Rejecting one form of nationalism is simply rejecting one form of nationalism, not necessarily of nationalism per se.
• The article in the encyclopedia Religions of the World edited by Gordon Melton and others, says "The significance of [Kokuchukai] lies not so much in its size or activities but in its influence on important personalities of modern Japan. Japanese poet Miyazawa Kenji and ... were members of Kokuchukai.
• The book "Epic Grandeur: Toward a Comparative Poetics of the Epic by Masaki Mori" has snippets available on the web, including one from page 210 which can be seen here which says specifically that "Miyazawa reportedly starting writing his tales enthusiastically because he was advised by one of the leaders of the Kokuchukai, a Buddhist nationalist organization in Tokyo, to write Hoke bungaku (Lotus Sutra literature)." If the Kokuchukai and its members were the cause of his writing his tales, it is hard to imagine that they weren't important enough to be mentioned in the lead, isn't it?

Quite a few other sources can be found, and included in at least snippet form, on Google through the searches "Kenji Miyazawa Kokuchukai" and "Kenji Miyazawa nationalism". From what I can see, none of them specifically indicate that he rejected "nationalism," just the specific form of nationalism advocated by Kokuchukai. There is a difference. It would definitely be OR to say that he rejected nationalism if the sources say that he only specifically rejected a specific form of nationalism. Granted, it might be OR to say that he specifically accepted nationalism if he accepted only one specific form of nationalism, but saying he was a follower of Kokuchukai, when he was, apparently, according to at least one of the sources, an "ardent" follower of Kokuchukai who only later, according to sources, rejected Tanaka's nationalist views, is something different. What would be particularly useful would be knowing how Tanaka's views did or did not change over time. These are just a few readily available sources on the net, of course. I am rather amazed that at least one editor who has been editing this article for years has never apparently looked for them. I also note that at least one source on the web heresays this subject has recently become "one of Japan's most read and best loved authors," and suppose it might be possible that some individuals might not want to have one of their leading heroes be described as having views which are not popular today, and that it might be possible for "fans" of the subject to perhaps even be willing to perhaps distort things to downplay material which would not necessarily cast the subject in what might be seen in current Japan as a truly heroic light.

P. S. I also note that the google search indicates a PhD thesis, "The Theme of Innocence in Miyazawa Kenji's Tales," by Takao Hagiwara, which is also available for downloading as a .pdf free off the web at the address starting "https://" and continuing "www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcircle.ubc.ca%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F2429%2F27103%2FUBC_1986_A1%2520H33.pdf%3Fsequence%3D1&ei=79U_VZ75AcSyyASCu4D4Ag&usg=AFQjCNG6Z1MZb2Xx49VDhwcxJ5Y9ZOYdCg&bvm=bv.91665533,d.aWw", contains a lengthy biography of Miyazawa. It is listed on google as cited by two sources, "Modern Japanese tanka: an anthology" by M. Ueda, and "Beyond Dualism: Towards Interculturality in Pictorialisations of Miyazawa Kenji's' Snow Crossing'(Yukiwatari) by H. Kilpatrick, according to a link which has been blacklisted here for some reason but has the following material as its webpage, following the "https://" www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=19&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEMQFjAIOAo&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcircle.ubc.ca%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F2429%2F27103%2FUBC_1986_A1%2520H33.pdf%3Fsequence%3D1&ei=Ts4_VYyLBY6MyASz9ICwBQ&usg=AFQjCNG6Z1MZb2Xx49VDhwcxJ5Y9ZOYdCg&bvm=bv.91665533,d.aWw as per here. It is admittedly a doctoral dissertation, which isn't necessarily something that meets RS, but being cited by sources generally is indicative that it is a reliable source, as it is apparently relied upon by other sources. It has maybe one of the fullest biographical works available on the subject, at least among those I can find. Others are free to take it to WP:RSN if they see fit, of course. If it is found to be reliable, it may be that the biographical section of that paper might be the best, and maybe one of the longest, sources for material on the biography of this subject, unless others are aware of other similar biographical sources of course. John Carter (talk) 18:23, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Jacqueline I Stone's paper in Steven Heine, Charles S. Prebish (eds.) From "Buddhism in the Modern World:Adaptations of an Ancient Tradition, p.198 is very, very authoritative, John. He rejected the extremism. As for nationalism, every one is a nationalist, in the sense that they wish for the good of their own countries. compared to the hotheads thick on the ground and all around him, there seems to be no evidence that political nationalism of the kind Tanaka and Ishiwara Kanji preached would have evoked anything but distaste in the poet.Nishidani (talk) 19:18, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

No disagreement that he rejected it in time. Does it specifically say when he rejected the extremism, however? I admit I haven't checked everything myself, yet, and that includes both the encyclopedia I listed above and the .pdfs I was sent by Resource Exchange. The questions here aren't really about the "nationalism" per se, but about his ties to Kukochukai or however it is spelled, and when perhaps the group became strongly nationalist, particularly as it relates to his acceptance or rejection of it. I have a feeling, although I am clearly not an expert, that we might really benefit from a maybe more detailed article or group of articles on Japanese nationalism, which doesn't seem to cover the nationalist tendencies of the post-war period very well. Admittedly, it probably isn't the top priority of the related WikiProjects. I know how damn many central articles on religious traditions are still missing in wikipedia, and I imagine the same weakness of broad topical coverage exists in Japan related content as well. The two questions I guess are (1) how long should this article ultimately be and (2) proportionally, how much coverage to his religious opinions and his involvement in Kokuchukai and whatever else. Personally, I've always held that we shouldn't be longer than the longest overview on the same topic, but I dunno what that might be yet. The length of the lede would be dependent on the first of those points. The apparent point of dispute, at present, seems to be how to describe his beliefs, and how important to place the nationalism of Kokuchukai in the description of those beliefs, particularly in the lede. I am in no way going to cast an at this point ill-founded opinion on that, but I have to say if his ties to the group were one of the issues which caused him to be a writer, a description of his religiosity in some form merits some mention in the lede. John Carter (talk) 19:30, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

The lede issue

I waited quite a while before I would post anything about this issue.

• It was established not to call Kenji a nationalist
• It is also an established fact though he was a member Kokuchūkai
• His affiliation with Kokuchūkai is the only known with Nichiren Buddbism. Although Kokuchūkai is on the very fringe of Nichiren Buddhism it is never the less in some ways based on the Lotus Sutra.
• Kenji’s Family were adherents of Pure Land Buddhism NOT based on the Lotus Sutra.

From all what was said and done in this article to call the man a “devout” Buddhist is a peacock term as the only devotion that can be accounted for is the one towards named organisation. An alternative lede would be “Kenji Miyazawa (宮沢 賢治 Miyazawa Kenji?, 27 August 1896 – 21 September 1933) was a Japanese poet and author of children's literature in the early Shōwa period. He was also known as a Buddhist and member of Kokuchūkai, vegetarian, and social activist.” I do agree as this issue has been dragging on for months now to call the guy a nationalist may be disputable. What is undisputable however is his affiliation with Kokuchūkai as the only religious affiliation to be accounted for. Kokuchūkai may or may not be nationalist today it surely was then back in the days he joined – excuses like saying “I did not know what I was doing back then” are an well established excuse in the country I reside in. If some would like to use Wikipedia to establish revisionist tendencies they just might go ahead but have to live with opposition.--Catflap08 (talk) 20:08, 28 April 2015 (UTC)