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== Addition to "Backgraund": July 29, (1914) Nicholas II sent a telegram to Wilhelm II, with the suggestion "to transmit the Austro-Serbian question to the Hague Conference" ==

{{collapsetop|Consensus (9 participants) for non-inclusion of material took place until June 21 -- while there was represented only one RS (now we have 12 sources that one editor asserts to be RS)}}
'''July 29, Nicholas II sent a telegram to Wilhelm II, with the suggestion "to transmit the Austro-Serbian question to the Hague Conference" [28][29] (in an international arbitration court in The Hague) [30][31][32]. Wilhelm II did not respond to this telegram.[28][30][31][33].'''

[28]:

ref>[http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Willy-Nicky_Telegrams The Willy-Nicky Telegrams (From World War I Document Archive)]</ref

[29]:

ref>Telegram July 29, 1914: “Tsar to Kaiser, July 29, 8:20 P.M. Peter's Court Palace, 29 July 1914
''Thanks for your telegram conciliatory and friendly. Whereas official message presented today by your ambassador to my minister was conveyed in a very different tone. Beg you to explain this divergency! It would be right to give over the Austro-servian problem to the Hague conference. Trust in your wisdom and friendship. Your loving Nicky''”</ref

[30]:

ref>[http://militera.lib.ru/memo/french/paleologue/index.html Palaeologus M.G. Tsarist Russia during World War. – Moscow. Publisher "International Relations", 1991 (page 155, 156 - in Russian)]. 1st Edition: Paléologue M.G. La Russie des Tsars pendant la grande guerre.— Paris: Plon, 1922. (Chapter XII)</ref

[31]:
ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=1f0NAQAAMAAJ&q=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&dq=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&hl=en&ei=uCH6Ta7UIqXciALWzoWFBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA Maurice Paléologue. An ambassador's memoirs, Volume 1 - Octagon Books, 1972]</ref

[32]:

ref>Quote: (Palaeologus M.G . Tsarist Russia during World War . Chapter XII. The Forgotten Tsar's telegram to Emperor Wilhelm):

"Sunday, January 31, 1915 Petrograd “Governmental Herald” publishes the text of the telegram dated 29 July last year in which Emperor Nicholas suggested that Emperor Wilhelm convey the Austro-Serbian dispute the Hague tribunal. Here is the text of the document: "''Thanks for your telegram conciliatory and friendly. Whereas official message presented today by your ambassador to my minister was conveyed in a very different tone. Beg you to explain this divergency! It would be right to give over the Austro-servian problem to the Hague conference. Trust in your wisdom and friendship.''" - The German government has not seen fit to publish this telegram to the number of messages that are exchanged directly, both the monarch during the crisis preceding the war. ... - And what a terrible responsibility assumed the Emperor Wilhelm, leaving without a word of reply sentence of Nicholas! He could not respond to an offer otherwise than agreeing to it. And he did not answer because he wanted war".</ref.

[33]:

ref>[http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Willy-Nicky_Telegrams The Willy-Nicky Telegrams (From World War I Document Archive)]</ref.

[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 15:46, 13 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::nothing came of these minor telegrams. We don't have space for this level of non-event. (it's also based on OR -- the major scholars pay little attention to this) [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 16:06, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

:::We see (from the book by Maurice Paleologos 1922 published), that the French ambassador in Russia, Maurice Palaeologus saw this telegram as a very important effort to prevent war. He devoted an entire chapter (Chapter 12) in his book to this telegram. Modern "WWI Document Archive" (http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Main_Page ) has devoted an entire section (separate page) for pre-war correspondence of Nicholas II and Wilhelm II (http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Willy-Nicky_Telegrams )
[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 16:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)Boris Romanov

::::Meh, if you read down the list of telegrams after that, a different story emerges. The telegram directly after the one you provided reads ''"Thank you heartily for your quick answer."'' Unless the tsar was being facetious (which I somehow doubt), this would indicate that the kaiser did indeed respond to the telegram, but that the response has been destroyed or lost. Your requested addition is a minefield of [[WP:OR]] and [[WP:NPOV]] violations, and is not important enough for inclusion in the main article anyway. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 16:36, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

:::::The assumption that the Wilhelm's response was lost - that is your speculation ("Original research" - in terms of the Wikipedia), and this your assumption is absolutely unfounded. In addition, if Willhelm agreed to the proposal, it certainly would have been published. In addition, "WWI Document Archive" (http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Main_Page) is not a Russian web-site[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 16:54, 13 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::There is one key difference between my OR and your OR: I am not proposing that my OR be included in articlespace. Unfounded? Hardly. It is natural to assume that a friendly "thanks for responding" means that there was most likely a response (not that it matters for this article). Also, in response to your ''"not a Russian web-site"'' statement: this is only partially true. The website itself is not Russian. ''However'', if you will direct your attention to the top of the telegrams page, you will notice that they have been ''"copied from the '''government archives in Petrograd''', and '''brought from Russia'''"''. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 17:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

::::::It is clear that indirect (not direct) Wilhelm's response (refusal) on Nicholas's offer is contained in the telegram: "Kaiser to Tsar, July 30, 1:20 A.M. Berlin, 30. July 1914 ...''my rôle as mediator you kindly intrusted me with, & which I accepted at you[r] express prayer, will be endangered if not ruined'' ... " [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 17:35, 13 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::::::How is the tsar ''"intrusting"'' the kaiser with a ''"rôle as mediator"'' ''"at [the tsar's] '''express prayer'''"'' a "refusal"? Seems more like a mutual agreement to settle the dispute on their own. Again, not that it matters for the article, as this is still all OR. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 17:53, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::For the article it is important the text that I proposed (the text that removed by [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Drmies Drmies]). Everything else are your (and my) assumptions (OR). I see no obstacles to return the text into the article. Your opinion? (And, if not, why?)[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:11, 13 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::::::::No, because this is a primary source, and Wikipedia is based off of [[WP:SECONDARY]] sources. This is an inconsequential and incomplete exchange of telegrams which has not been reviewed extensively in the best recent scholarship. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 18:20, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::The book of M.Paleologus (the member of the French Academy) is SECONDARY source (with respect to these telegrams). It was reviewed extensively in a lot of scholarship. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 19:00, 13 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::::::::::1922 is Versailles-era and can hardly be considered "best recent scholarship". ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 15:20, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::This article has space only for very important events, as evaluated by the best recent scholarship. Nothing came out of this telegram and it's pretty unimportant. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 17:02, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Drmies Drmies] wrote two hour ago:
(diff | hist) . . World War I‎; 14:52 . . (-2,575) . . Drmies (talk | contribs) (Reverted to revision 434025518 by Spellcast: '''these are pretty serious changes in content''' and (citation) style. please take up on talk page". (TW)) [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 17:35, 13 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

:While I'm normally inclined to keep just about everything, I have to ask what resulted from the putative exchange. AFAI can tell, nothing. That being so, this exchange is inconsequential, & unworthy of inclusion. Until, unless, you can demonstrate a substantive, significant outcome, IMO, it should stay out. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 22:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

::I think, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Drmies Drmies] correctly identified the proposed addition as ''pretty serious changes in content''. As a result of the discussion I see no reasonable objection (based on the rules of Wikipedia), against my additions. As [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Drmies Drmies] made no new objections, I'll restore this addition in the paper. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 14:53, 14 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::That's not how it works. You took the issue to the talkpage to determine consensus on the matter. Consensus is that your addition does not belong in the article. Drmies is not God; his word is not the deciding one. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 15:18, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
::::Wikipedia's rules do not require consensus for publication (for addition). Your former link to the rules of Wikipedia (about a "secondary sources") has been refuted by me (because the book of French academician Maurice Paleologos is a secondary source relatively discussed telegram of Nicholas II). I see no reasonable objection (based on the rules of Wikipedia), against my additions.[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 16:57, 14 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::[[WP:CONSENSUS]]. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 17:00, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::We read there:"''consensus seems to offer the best method to establish and ensure '''neutrality and verifiability'''.''" Nor you neither other opponents say nothing about '''neutrality and verifiability''' - because my addition is neutral and verifiable. I see no reasonable objection (based on the rules of Wikipedia), against my additions.[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 17:17, 14 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

Dear Trekphiler, you wrote (in reason of your "undo"): “''this is trivial & getting far in excess the attention it deserves''” – However: 1. this is your personal opinion (not based on WP's rules); 2. This is your original research (OR – against WP's rules) -- and this your opinion is obviously wrong. In fact Nicholas's II suggestion was the important attempt to prevent the war -- it is impossible to deny this fact. -- So, I'm restoring my addition. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 21:18, 14 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::it's a non-event--no RS in last 75 years considers it important. (Hague had never settled any major dispute--it was a forum for endless talk; note the Czar did not bother to himself submit anything to the Hague). [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 21:38, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
:::Dear Rjensen, you wrote also (in reason of your "undo"): “''drop trivial non-event (see talk) (Hague would take years and had never settled any major disputes''))” - However, 1. '''This cannot be a reason (based on WP's rules) to undo my addition'''; 2. Now we really know that “Hague would take years and had never settled any major disputes”, but Nicholas II don't know it so well (or, maybe he just wanted for “Hague would take years” – to prevent the war). - Anyhow, your reasons is not based on WP's rules - So, I'm restoring my addition. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 21:58, 14 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::Boris Romanov is being deliberately disruptive. He has a trivial episode with no RS to support it. A memoir written by a diplomat at the time who did not have access to the secret papers is not a RS. But no major libfraryu seems to report any such book by Paleologos ????? so who was he, what EXACTLY did he say about the telegram, and give a link to the book. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 22:14, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
:::::Dear Rjensen, you probably do not pay attention read the note [31](an excerpt from the book by Maurice Palaeologus). He refers to a Russian newspaper and the Russian Minister of Foreign Affairs (this is in the Russian text). He also wrote that correspondence of Nicholas II and Wilhelm II was not published in Germany just because Wilhelm II did not agree with the suggestion of Nicholas. As to M.Paleologus's books, it is well-known in Russia, and it is RS, of course. And English Google give a lot refers to it. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 22:50, 14 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

:::::This has a strong smell of Russian partisanship to me, if not trying to rehabilitate Nicholas' rep.
:::::BTW, Борис Романов, it's nothing like OR, since I'm not ''putting it in'', & if it wasn't, in fact, trivial, it would've gotten more attention before now. As for the weight, that's covered [[WP:Undue|here]], & while I don't know it well, I do recognize when a minor event is getting ''way'' more play than it deserves. ''The declaration of war'' got less than you want to give this. Which leads me back to partisanship, & to wonder why. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 22:39 & 22:46, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::Dear Trekphiler, I am not a member of any party or public organization. I am a pensioner and an old lover of history (old historian-fan) :) [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 23:18, 14 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::You mistake my meaning: "partisan" meaning "supporter of a point of view".
:::::::As for your passion for history, I share it, since about Grade 6. :) [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 01:09, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::::Stumbling in here to give my 2 cents, I agree that this does seem like a minor non-event. Just because something can be sourced, doesn't mean its inclusion in Wikiepdia is appropriate. In this case, we have a minor fact which has not been included (as far as I can tell) in the major works on WWI I have read. If it is not significant enough to be included in these thousand-odd pages of scholarly work on the subject, there is no reason to include it in an encyclopedia article, which is supposed to be a brief summary of important aspects. We could literally cite thousands of facts about WWI, expanding this article to many times its current length, but that does not mean they all get added unless someone can cite a specific rule about why they aren't. This simply isn't significant enough. -[[User:R. fiend|R. fiend]] ([[User talk:R. fiend|talk]]) 15:45, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::A large number of messages in this thread and five undoing (made by three users per day) of this my addition - all this suggests the opposite: probably, opponents believe this addition is pretty important and at the same time unwanted (unpleasant?) for them. I also believe this is an important addition: Wikipedia's readers should be aware that Nicholas II wanted to prevent the war, and 29 July, he suggested to Wilhelm II to transmit the Austro-Serbian problem to the Hague Tribunal. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:15, 15 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov.
:::::::::If I'm "a supporter of a point of view" (as TREKphiler asserts) - in this case my opponent is "a supporter of opposite point of view". I think we should not blame each other here in such things. I think we can admit my addition as substantial and discuss it, based on the rules of Wikipedia. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:34, 15 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::::::::Or perhaps its being reverted not to suppress unpleasant information, but because it's viewed as insignificant, inconsequential, trivial, a non-event, etc., as several of us have been saying. The fact that you see its removal as proof that it is important sounds somewhat delusional. If I were to add to the article that the war started on Beatrix Potter's 48th birthday, I would not interpret multiple reversions of it as some sort of anti-Potter conspiracy. In any case, if this factoid is as important to the war as you seem to believe it is, why isn't it covered in the dozens of well-known books that have been written on WWI? Articles such as this get bloated enough with semi-relevant facts that we don't need irrelevant ones clogging up the works even more. -[[User:R. fiend|R. fiend]] ([[User talk:R. fiend|talk]]) 18:35, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

:I see that my opponents have reached consensus among themselves: now they write that my addition is of no interest (''"insignificant, inconsequential, trivial, a non-event, etc"''). Moreover, today [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lothar_von_Richthofen Lothar von Richthofen] deleted my addition «''as a minor edit''» (!)([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=World_War_I&action=history Revision history of World War I]). However:
:The Hague Conventions are mentioned in the article three times. Any actions and appeals related to the Hague Convention (the Hague Conference, the Hague Tribunal) is always referred (and should be mentioned) in the Wikipedia articles. I do not understand why very important attempt of Nicholas II to prevent war with the Hague Tribunal should not be mentioned in this article. My addition has three important aspects:
:1. The article WWI has not any mention about any attempt to prevent war,
:2. This attempt was made by head of one of the great states,
:3. This attempt was connected with the Hague Tribunal.
:I think these three reasons are very significant.
:[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 19:41, 15 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 20:24, 15 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::"the war started on Beatrix Potter's 48th birthday" Did it? :) I'd want to know that. Just not ''here'', necessarily. Which reminds me there are ''lots'' of WP pages. So, while this particular exchange may not be appropriate here, what about mentioning it on the pages of the leaders exchanging missives? Or [[Diplomacy before World War One]]? Or [[Russo-German relations in the 1900s]]? Or something? There must be somewhere this belongs. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 22:34, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

:::In the article [[World War II]] (with label "'''''good article'''''"), we see five references to the League of Nations, including as appeals to the League Nation, so and (for example) the following: ''"Both Italy and Ethiopia were member nations, but the League did nothing when the former clearly violated the League's own"''. – Thus, a good article on Wikipedia mentions all cases of action and inaction of the World War IILeague of Nations.
:::Why did the article [[World War I]] never mentions the Hague Conference and Hague Tribunal (the predecessor of the League of Nations)? (though several times referred to the Hague Convention). '''Why the unique known attempt (of Nicholas II) to apply to the Hague tribunal is not worthy of mention in the [[World War I]] article?'''[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 11:06, 16 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::the issue is adding trivial non-event material to the WWI article without any scholarly secondary source that says it's important. (The Tsar did NOT submit anything to the Hague--he said somebody else should so it--and no one did any such thing). [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 12:15, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::1. I have several times earlier explained that the book French academician Maurice Peleolog is RS, and this book is widely known in scientific circles. Many historical studies of the events of those years contain references to this book. Search in Google (“Paleologue M.G. La Russie des Tsars pendant la grande guerre”) gives many thousands of links. Search in the Russian search engine Yandex (the book's title in Russian, search for "exact phrase") gives the 190,000 options.
::::::2. Maurice Palaeologus believed discussed events (telegram of Nicholas II, dated 29 July) '''is very important''' in the chain of events on the eve of WWI, and '''he devoted an entire chapter to this telegram in his book''' (Chapter XII).
::::::3. In the article [[World War II]] (with label "'''''good article'''''"), we see five references to the League of Nations, including as appeals to the League Nation, so and (for example) the following: ''"Both Italy and Ethiopia were member nations, but the League did nothing when the former clearly violated the League's own"''. – Thus, a good article on Wikipedia mentions all cases of appeals to, action and inaction of the League of Nations ("non-events"). [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 15:05, 16 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::Not a reliable secondary source. The Maurice Palaeologus book is not cited by any scholar and is not owned by major libraries specializing in the field. We still do not have an accurate title, publisher, place of publication--or even what language. The snippet quoted says that Palaeologus got his information from a Russian newspaper--which is not a very good source for a scholar. He obviously did not have access to the key documents which all RS use (when did he write the passage and exactly how did he say the episode was important??? [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 15:28, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
::Not to mention that Versailles-era French writings are likely going to have a heavy anti-German POV. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 15:32, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
:::well the book turned up [http://books.google.com/books?id=1f0NAQAAMAAJ&q=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&dq=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&hl=en&ei=uCH6Ta7UIqXciALWzoWFBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA see google]. It is a memoir written at the time and it gives as couple sentences to the episode, and says the Tsar neglected to mention it to anybody in his foreign ministry. Se we have a weak primary source (based on a newspaper article published by the Russian government after the war began) -- pretty low quality from a strongly anti-German source. [[Maurice Paléologue]] was a seniort French official in the war against Germany. As Ambassador Paléologue could have suggested the case to Hague, but he never suggested that to Paris. we are left with weak OR by Boris Romanov phrased so as to praise the Tsar. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 15:38, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
::::In addition to the book by M. Paleologos, I gave the link (online) for the two primary source (Willy-Nicky Correspondence). Text of the telegram is the same.[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 16:50, 16 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::Rjensen, thank you for the link [http://books.google.com/books?id=1f0NAQAAMAAJ&q=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&dq=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&hl=en&ei=uCH6Ta7UIqXciALWzoWFBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA Maurice Paléologue. An ambassador's memoirs, Volume 1 - Octagon Books, 1972][[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 17:05, 16 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::Use of primary sources is generally considered original research, which is prohibited. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 17:58, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::First, it is not prohibited, but is not recommended. Second, in this case, the primary sources of information only confirm the book by Maurice Palaeologus (and not vice versa). Third, I can put the primary sources in footnote (remove them from the text of the article), or even remove them altogether (and leave only a link to the book by Maurice Palaeologus). It will look like this:

'''July 29, Nicholas II sent the telegram to Wilhelm II, with the suggestion to transmit the Austro-Serbian question to the [[Hague Conference]] (in [[Hague tribunal]]) – Wilhelm II did not respond to this telegram.[28][29][30]. The data of M.Palaeologus's book are confirmed by primary sources (texts of telegrams from well-known Willy-Nicky Telegrams July 29 -1 August 1914).'''

[28]:

ref>[http://militera.lib.ru/memo/french/paleologue/index.html Palaeologus M.G. Tsarist Russia during World War. – Moscow. Publisher "International Relations", 1991 (page 155, 156 - in Russian)]. 1st Edition: Paléologue M.G. La Russie des Tsars pendant la grande guerre.— Paris: Plon, 1922. (Chapter XII)</ref

[29]:

ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=1f0NAQAAMAAJ&q=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&dq=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&hl=en&ei=uCH6Ta7UIqXciALWzoWFBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA Maurice Paléologue. An ambassador's memoirs, Volume 1 - Octagon Books, 1972]</ref

[30]:

ref>Quote: (Palaeologus M.G . Tsarist Russia during World War . Chapter XII. The Forgotten Tsar's telegram to Emperor Wilhelm):

"Sunday, January 31, 1915 Petrograd “Governmental Herald” publishes the text of the telegram dated 29 July last year in which Emperor Nicholas suggested that Emperor Wilhelm convey the Austro-Serbian dispute the Hague tribunal. Here is the text of the document: "''Thanks for your telegram conciliatory and friendly. Whereas official message presented today by your ambassador to my minister was conveyed in a very different tone. Beg you to explain this divergency! It would be right to give over the Austro-servian problem to the Hague conference. Trust in your wisdom and friendship.''" - The German government has not seen fit to publish this telegram to the number of messages that are exchanged directly, both the monarch during the crisis preceding the war. ... - And what a terrible responsibility assumed the Emperor Wilhelm, leaving without a word of reply sentence of Nicholas! He could not respond to an offer otherwise than agreeing to it. And he did not answer because he wanted war".</ref.
****

The last words in the text (above) can be give as link [http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Willy-Nicky_Telegrams Willy-Nicky Telegrams July 29 -1 August 1914]
[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 19:29, 16 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:Going a touch OT, I continue to object to the inclusion of quotes in footnotes. They're completely unnecessary. Anybody wanting to know what the souce actually sez can ''look it up''. If it doesn't support the claim, it'll get removed; if it does, the quote is needless verbiage. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 01:21, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
:::I think we can put the text to the following:

'''July 29, Nicholas II sent the telegram to Wilhelm II, with the suggestion to transmit the Austro-Serbian question to the [[Hague Conference]] (in [[Hague tribunal]]) – Wilhelm II did not respond to this telegram.[28][29][30].'''

[28]:
ref>[http://militera.lib.ru/memo/french/paleologue/index.html Palaeologus M.G. Tsarist Russia during World War. – Moscow. Publisher "International Relations", 1991 (page 155, 156 - in Russian)]. 1st Edition: Paléologue M.G. La Russie des Tsars pendant la grande guerre.— Paris: Plon, 1922. (Chapter XII)</ref

[29]:
ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=1f0NAQAAMAAJ&q=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&dq=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&hl=en&ei=uCH6Ta7UIqXciALWzoWFBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA Maurice Paléologue. An ambassador's memoirs, Volume 1 - Octagon Books, 1972]</ref

[30]:
The data of M.Palaeologus's book are confirmed by primary sources (texts of telegrams from well-known [http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Willy-Nicky_Telegrams Willy-Nicky Telegrams July 29 -1 August 1914]).

:::What are your opinion? [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 13:59, 17 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::I don't think anyone's opinion has changed; this is not worthy of inclusion in the article. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 23:42, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
::I think you need to drop this now, consensus is against inclusion. [[User:Jim Sweeney|Jim Sweeney]] ([[User talk:Jim Sweeney|talk]]) 07:16, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
:::To drop what? - I respond to comments and questions opponents rather than "talking to myself". [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 14:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::"Drop it" means stop debating the matter further. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 23:42, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
:::::Fundamentally, the issue is that there is no consensus to include this one particular telegram (one of many which were being sent between the leaders and diplomats of Europe in the lead-in to war) in an article covering the whole of the First World War. Inclusion of this on its own, without giving the whole picture, would give rise to WP:WEIGHT issues.[[User:Nigel Ish|Nigel Ish]] ([[User talk:Nigel Ish|talk]]) 00:07, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::We read in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Achieving_neutrality WP WEIGHT (WP: Neutral point of view) (WP: Due and undue weight)]:
::::::“'''''As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased.''' Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone. Biased information can usually be balanced with material cited to other sources to produce a more neutral perspective, so such problems should be fixed when possible through the normal editing process. Remove material only where you have good reason to believe it misinforms or misleads readers in ways that cannot be addressed by rewriting the passage. The sections below offer specific guidance on common problems.''”
::::::“''Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace '''fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources''', in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint''”
::::::Obviously, Russia (represented by Foreign Minister Sazonov) and France (represented by the French Ambassador to Russia Maurice Palaeologus) believed the telegram Nicholas II an important fact in the chain of events on the eve of the war, and their point of view was published in reliable source (the book Maurice Palaeologus). '''Therefore, it is significant viewpoints'''. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 11:48, 19 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::Nonsense--they are NOT reliable secondary sources. Actually Palaeologus says the Tsar told neither of them about the telegram--it was discovered months later and publicized as Russian propaganda, which is where Botris picks it up. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 12:01, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::::Why do you think that the book of the Ambassador of France and the French Academician Maurice Palaeologus is "''NOT reliable secondary sources''"? [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 12:16, 19 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::::because he says himself it is a memoir--his personal recollections of what he saw at the time. He is not a scholar or historian and did not have access to the archives which all scholars now use. Using him is original research into a primary source and that is restricted territory. Hundreds of real scholars have looked at the telegram and have NOT considered it important enough to emphasize or even mention. Furthermore the Ambassador was a leading enemhy of Germany and was a supporter of the Tsar (an ally of France). [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] ([[User talk:Rjensen|talk]]) 12:25, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::You do not hear my earlier arguments: the primary sources (letters of Nicholas II and Wilhelm II) confirm M.Palaeologus's memories. Everything else - your personal opinion, and and your personal opinion contradicts the rules of WP WEIGHT (see my post above). [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 14:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::::::Personal memoir of a French ambassador + letters copied from a Russian newspaper ≠≠≠≠≠≠≠ RS. This is not going to be added to the article. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 15:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
::::::::::::I do not know the RS which would prove that Palaeologus's book and the correspondence of Nicholas II and Wilhelm are fake or propaganda (the biased sources). But more than that, even if '''you''' find such sources, the rules of Wikipedia is not recommended to delete my text (once more,see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Achieving_neutrality WP WEIGHT (WP: Neutral point of view) (WP: Due and undue weight)]):
::::::::::::“'''''As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased.''' ...''” [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 17:24, 19 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::::::::"Everything else - your personal opinion, and and your personal opinion contradicts the rules of WP WEIGHT" No, it doesn't. Your desire to add a trivial communication simply for the fact it exists, or for the fact it paints Nicholas as a notional peacemaker, does. I also suspect the effort to launder Nicholas' rep violates NPOV. Nor do you have consensus. Nor are you likely to have, by appearances. And continuing to beat this dead horse is only going to buy you trouble. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 17:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I see no point in continuing this debate, as opponents are again and again repeating the same old, inconclusive (and contrary to the rules of Wikipedia) arguments against new and more new of my arguments, and opponents are ignoring my reference to the rules of Wikipedia. All the old arguments of opponents also were denied and rejected (by me) on the merits. '''I'll answer further only to new arguments (or questions) opponents'''. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 19:47, 19 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov


THREE NEW RS .

1. '''G. Buchanan. «My Mission to Russia and other diplomatic memories»''', L. 1920/1923. (Chapter XV). - [http://www.archive.org/stream/mymissiontorussi01buchuoft#page/200/mode/1up/search/+Hague G. Buchanan. «My Mission to Russia and other diplomatic memories», 1923 (P.200)] Quote: “To this the Emperor Nicholas replied: “Thanks for your telegram conciliatory and friendly. Whereas official message presented today by your ambassador to my minister was conveyed in a very different tone. Beg you to explain this divergency! It would be right to give over the Austro-servian problem to the Hague conference. Trust in your wisdom and friendship.””

2. [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=81 '''The Evidence in the Case by James M. Beck'''] (p.81, p.106)

Quote (p.81): ''“...the Czar, with evident sincerity, suggested to the Kaiser that "with the aid of God it must be possible to our long tried friendship to prevent the shedding of blood," and proposed a reference of the question to the Hague.”''

Quote (p.106): ''“THE SUPPRESSED TELEGRAM FROM THE CZAR. It is a curious and suggestive fact that the German Foreign Office in publishing the correspondence between the Kaiser and the Czar omitted one of the most important telegrams. The Russian Government on January 31, 1915, therefore, made public the following telegram which the Czar sent to the Kaiser on July 29, 1914'': <blockquote> ''"Thanks for your conciliatory and friendly telegram. Inasmuch as the official message presented to-day by your Ambassador to my Minister was conveyed in a very different tone, I beg you to explain this divergency. It would be right to give over the Austro-Servian problem to The Hague Conference. I trust in your wisdom and friendship."''</blockquote> ''The German Foreign Office has since explained that they regarded this telegram as too "_unimportant_" for publication. Comment is unnecessary. It thus appears that the Czar at the beginning of his correspondence with the Kaiser suggested that the whole dispute be submitted to The Hague Tribunal for adjustment. Servia had already made the same suggestion. As the world owes the first Hague Convention to the Czar's initiative, it can justly be said to his lasting credit that he at least was loyal to the pacific ideal of that great convention of the nations.”''

[http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=1 THE EVIDENCE IN THE CASE. A Discussion of the Moral Responsibility for the War of 1914, as Disclosed by the Diplomatic Records of England, Germany, Russia, France, Austria, Italy and Belgium.] '''BY JAMES M. BECK, LL.D. Late Assistant Attorney-General of the U. S.''' Author of "The War and Humanity."

3. '''"History of Russia. XX Century "(Volume I, 1894-1939)'''. - M., 2010, (P.291)
"History of Russia. XX Century "(Volume I, 1894-1939). - M., 2010, 1023 pages. Written by 45 historians led by Andrei Zubov, a professor at the institute that serves as university to the Russian Foreign Ministry, the weighty history — almost 1,000 pages per volume — was published this year by AST Publishers. We read on p. 291 of this book:

''“During the entire period of the Balkan crisis, Russian diplomacy feverishly sought to avoid the possibility of a large European conflict. Emperor Nicholas II took an active correspondence with the Kaiser Wilhelm II, trying to convince him to make his Austrian ally, think again. '''“It would be right to give over the Austro-servian problem to the Hague conference. Trust in your wisdom and friendship'''”,- Russian Tsar wrote to Kaiser.”''

Next, the authors write that the Tsar's advisors (Sazonov, Sukhomlinov and Yanushkevich) considered war inevitable, and insisted on a general mobilization; Nicolas II hesitated, and had hoped to agree with Wilhelm II - but the correspondence gave nothing, and Tsar ordered a general mobilization.

You may read also [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/arts/25iht-russia.html NY Times book review: "History of Russia. XX Century" (A History of 20th-Century Russia, Warts and All)]:
<blockquote>”Eminent historians in the United States and Poland who often take a critical view of Russia’s passionate, partisan discussion of history lauded its balance.”</blockquote>

You may read there also the opinion of Richard Pipes:
<blockquote>“Nothing like it has ever been published in Russia,” - Richard Pipes, the Harvard University Sovietologist, wrote in an e-mail message, noting that he was trying to raise money for a translation and publication in English. “It is a remarkable work: remarkable not only for Russia but also for Western readers. For one, it has gotten away from the nationalism so common in Russian history books, according to which the Russians were always the victims of aggression, never aggressors.” </blockquote>

'''So, we have now four RS''' (four - with M.Paleologus's book). Once again, I ask opponents to change their position and bring it into conformity with the rules of Wikipedia. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 11:29, 21 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 15:53, 21 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:After a very long read - I also don't see any merit for inclusion on any level here.[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 16:58, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
:This is becoming tedious. I'm tempted to close and hat this discussion, as it will never go anywhere. These telegrams were inconsequential and will never merit a mention in the already-swollen main article. Please, [[WP:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass]]. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 17:07, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
::We read there ([[WP:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass]]): ''"This essay contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. Essays may represent widespread norms or minority viewpoints. Consider these views with discretion. '''It is not a Wikipedia policy.'''"'' - So, you appeal to a certain essay, which does not represent the policy of Wikipedia, and at the same time you ignore the existing rules Wikipedia that contradict your position (Earlier I wrote on these WP's rules).[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 17:45, 21 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::I know that it is not policy. However, what you are doing (attempting to use the letter of policy to circumvent a clear consensus) can be considered [[WP:WIKILAWYERING]] and is highly frowned upon. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 17:57, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
::::We read there the same thing: ''"this essay does not represent the policy of Wikipedia"''. Worse yet, instead of answering on the merits of my new sources, you are referring to the essay, which now (in this case) has been working against you personally. :)
::::The essence of the problem is this: earlier, you (and other opponents) have justified the removal of my addition in that it contained only one reference to a secondary source (and not the RS, - in your opinion). '''Now I give three more secondary source (all RS!)'''. Instead of an answer and comment on the essences of these RS, you yourself have started [[WP:WIKILAWYERING]] :) [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:33, 21 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

::::I think, now we can put the text to the following:

'''July 29, Nicholas II sent the telegram to Wilhelm II, with the suggestion to transmit the Austro-Serbian question to the [[Hague Conference]] (in [[Hague tribunal]]) – Wilhelm II did not respond to this telegram.[28][29][30][31][32][33].'''

[28]:
ref>[http://militera.lib.ru/memo/french/paleologue/index.html Palaeologus M.G. Tsarist Russia during World War. – Moscow. Publisher "International Relations", 1991] (page 155, 156 - in Russian). - 1st Edition: Paléologue M.G. La Russie des Tsars pendant la grande guerre.— Paris: Plon, 1922. (Chapter XII)</ref

[29]:
ref>[http://books.google.com/books?id=1f0NAQAAMAAJ&q=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&dq=hague+inauthor:Maurice+inauthor:Pal%C3%A9ologue&hl=en&ei=uCH6Ta7UIqXciALWzoWFBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA Maurice Paléologue. An ambassador's memoirs, Volume 1 - Octagon Books, 1972]</ref

[30]:
ref>[http://www.archive.org/stream/mymissiontorussi01buchuoft#page/200/mode/1up/search/+Hague G. Buchanan. «My Mission to Russia and other diplomatic memories», 1923 (P.200)]</ref

[31]:
ref>[[http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=1 The Evidence in the Case. A Discussion of the Moral Responsibility for the War of 1914, as Disclosed by the Diplomatic Records of England, Germany, Russia, France, Austria, Italy and Belgium.] by James M. Beck, LL.D. Late Assistant Attorney-General of the U. S. Author of "The War and Humanity."] ([http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=81 p.81], [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=106 p.106])</ref

[32]:
ref> History of Russia. XX Century/ edited by Dr., Prof. Andrei Zubov.(Volume I, 1894-1939). - M.: AST Publishers, 2010 . (P. 291)</ref

[33]:
The data of all secondary sources are confirmed by primary sources (texts of telegrams from well-known [http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Willy-Nicky_Telegrams Willy-Nicky Telegrams July 29 -1 August 1914]).

::::What are your opinion? [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:39, 21 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

So, none of the former six opponents have not yet commented on the essence (merits) of my new RSs. Is your silence is consent and now you acknowledge that all four sources are RS? [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 15:23, 23 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

:I doubt if there will be many editors interested in searching through primary or foreign language sources to find an assertion that backs up your statement, especially when the upshot is obvious. There was no agreement, the question was not refered to the Hague, and the war went ahead, so the exchange had no effect. Now if you find a quality secondary source, preferably in English, discussing Willy's reasons and showing that he had a viable alternative then you just might be able to persuade someone that it is [[wp:WEIGHT|worth including]]. If you do have such sources, please cite them precisely (e.g. provide page numbers) and make it clear which ones they are. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 19:15, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
::1. RS [29, 30, 31] (in English) provide links directly to the texts with information on the telegram of Nicholas II. Links to Russian RS [28, 32] contain references to page numbers.
::2. You write: "There was no agreement, the question was not refered to the Hague ..." . I have already alluded to earlier, that in the article [[World War II]] (with label "'''''good article'''''"), we see five references to the League of Nations, including as appeals to the League Nation, so and (for example) the following: ''"Both Italy and Ethiopia were member nations, but the League did nothing when the former clearly violated the League's own"''. – Thus, a good article on Wikipedia mentions all cases of appeals to, action and inaction of the League of Nations ("non-events").
::3. Had Willhelm II has a real alternative (could he accept the offer of Nicholas II)? - As ambassadors of France (M. Paleologos – RS[28,29]) and of England (J. Buchanan - RS[30]) in Russia at that time as well as a modern scholar James M. Beck (Assistant Attorney-General of the U. S. - RS[31]) believe that Wilhelm II could (and should) accept the proposal of Nicholas II. They all believe that Wilhelm has not responded to a telegram to Nicholas because he wanted a war - because by 1914, Germany had already completed his military rearmament, but Russia and France were planning to finish upgrading their armies only to 1917. Even such Germanophile as Vladimir Lenin wrote about this in one of his articles (in September 1914). However, we don't need in OR in this question:
::M. Palaeologus [28, 29] wrote: “''The German government has not seen fit to publish this telegram to the number of messages that are exchanged directly, both the monarch during the crisis preceding the war. ... And what a terrible responsibility assumed the Emperor Wilhelm, leaving without a word of reply sentence of Nicholas! He could not respond to an offer otherwise than agreeing to it. And he did not answer because he wanted war.''”
::James M. Beck [31] wrote: “''It is a curious and suggestive fact that the German Foreign Office in publishing the correspondence between the Kaiser and the Czar omitted one of the most important telegrams. … The German Foreign Office has since explained that they regarded this telegram as too "_unimportant_" for publication. Comment is unnecessary. It thus appears that the Czar at the beginning of his correspondence with the Kaiser suggested that the whole dispute be submitted to The Hague Tribunal for adjustment. Servia had already made the same suggestion. As the world owes the first Hague Convention to the Czar's initiative, it can justly be said to his lasting credit that he at least was loyal to the pacific ideal of that great convention of the nations.''”
::Thus, we have all the information that you deem necessary, in the RS [28-31][[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 20:48, 23 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::You wrote: “''Now if you find a quality secondary source, preferably in English, discussing Willy's reasons and showing that he had a viable alternative then you just might be able to persuade someone that it is worth including.''”
::Well... James M. Beck wrote (The Evidence in the Case. A Discussion of the Moral Responsibility for the War of 1914, as Disclosed by the Diplomatic Records of England, Germany, Russia, France, Austria, Italy and Belgium. - by James M. Beck, LL.D. Late Assistant Attorney-General of the U. S. )[http://www.icdelaware.net/book_1989__-19.php Chapter VIII The Intervention of the Kaiser] : <blockquote>“Before proceeding to analyze the very interesting and dramatic correspondence, which passed between the rulers of Germany, England, and Russia--doubly interesting because of the family relationship and the unusual personal and cousinly intimacy of these dispatches--it is well to inquire what the Kaiser could have done that would have immediately avoided the crisis and saved the situation. So far as the published record goes, he did not send a single telegram in the interests of peace to his illustrious ally, the Emperor Francis Joseph. '''Let us suppose that he had sent the following''':<blockquote>''”I have just returned to Berlin and find Europe on the verge of war. I sympathize entirely with you and your country in its demands upon Servia. I agree with you that the Servian reply is not satisfactory. In accordance with the obligations of our alliance, I shall in any event support with the full power of the German sword the cause of Austria. Servia has by its reply admitted its responsibility for the murder of the Archduke and has unreservedly accepted certain of your demands, '''and as to others has agreed to submit them either to The Hague Tribunal for arbitration''', or to a concert of Powers. You will decide whether Austria is satisfied to accept either of these suggestions, but as England, France, and Russia have asked that time be granted to consider a peaceful and satisfactory solution of the difficulty, and as the questions reserved by Servia can be used as the basis for further discussion without prejudice to the rights of Austria, and as it is to the interest of every country and the entire world that its peace should not be broken unnecessarily, I shall be gratified if you can agree that a reasonable time shall be granted as a matter of courtesy to Russia, England, and France, in order that it may be determined upon due consideration whether it is not possible to preserve peace without sacrificing in any respect the legitimate demands of Austria, which have my full sympathy and support. WILHELM.”''</blockquote>
::Would the Austrian Emperor, himself a noble-minded and peace-loving monarch, have refused this reasonable request? A little time, a little patience and some forbearance for the rights of other States and the youth of Europe need not have perished.” END QUOTE</blockquote> ::[http://www.icdelaware.net/book_1989__-20.php Chapter VIII The Intervention of the Kaiser] [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 12:13, 24 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

:Please stop including the Paléologue memoir; there is general agreement that it is not reliable. The Buchanan source is just another memoir and is not the best recent scholarship; moreover, it '''does not support''' your assertion that the telegram was not answered. The telegram received only a brief mention in ''Evidence in the Case'', nowhere near important enough a mention to include it in the main article; it also '''does not support''' your assertion that the telegram was not answered. You have not provided any link to the ''History of Russia'' source, so I can't make any comment on it as I am unable to read what it says in full; in addition, the text you provided from it does not give any confirmation of your assertion that the kaiser did not respond (yet again). Finally, saying ''"The data of all secondary sources are confirmed by primary sources"'' is just pure original research. When I look at the primary sources, I do not see any "confirmation" that the tsar's telegram was not answered, I see an incomplete conversation. This telegram is, as the German Office put it, "<u>unimportant</u>", and I continue to oppose its addition into the article. No quality source has treated it with any significant depth for it to be considered as being of any large-scale importance. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 19:38, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
::Please, see my answer to LeadSongDog (above).
::As to M.Paeologos's book: 1. '''Please, give here WP link (general agreement) about "there is general agreement that it is not reliable"'''; 2. As RS [31] directly confirm M.Paleologos's info, so therefor the info reliable. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 21:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::You wrote: “''This telegram is, as the German Office put it, "unimportant", and I continue to oppose its addition into the article. No quality source has treated it with any significant depth for it to be considered as being of any large-scale importance''”
::However, in opposite, Russian Foreign Minister Sazonov, the ambassadors of France and England in Russia (M. Paleologos and James Buchanan), James M. Beck (assistant to the Attorney General of the United States) - all of them believed the telegram as very important, and they all had accused Wilhelm II that he had not replied to this telegram. Moreover, M. Paleologos devoted an entire chapter to the telegram in his book, and James M. Beck has paid much attention to the telegram in his book.
::'''Thus, as Wikipedia should reflect all the important points of view, we must mention the telegram in the Wikipedia article.''' <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Борис Романов|contribs]]) 11:17, 24 June 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::I have to agree with Lothar. I don't see this message as anything but trivial, & I frankly can't understand the insistence on including it unless there's some underlying factor I don't see. ''Prima facie'', this is trivia, unworthy of inclusion; at best, it's contrary to [[WP:Undue|undue]] for such a minor matter.. If there's something partisan, it would seem to be NPOV. In any case, it's pretty clear to me there's enough opposition to keeping it out, & far from sufficient evidence to support inclusion. The claim for "4 reliable sources" is nonsense; a book review of one of the quoted sources does not qualify as independent confirmation nor a separate source. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 21:14, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
::::You wrote: “''a book review of one of the quoted sources does not qualify as independent confirmation nor a separate source''” - what do you mean?
::::1st Edition of M.Paléologue's book (La Russie des Tsars pendant la grande guerre) was in '''1922'''.
::::The book of James M. Beck has copyright '''1915''' [http://www.icdelaware.net/book_1989__-1.php The Evidence in the Case. The War and Humanity. P.1] and his sources were so-called English and German _White Paper_ , Russian _Orange Paper_ and France _Yellow Book_ – all were published in 1914 (soon after the start of WWI) [http://www.icdelaware.net/book_1989__-6.php The Evidence in the Case. The War and Humanity. Chapter II The Record in the Case]. James M. Beck refers on documents and other publication of 1915 too. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 10:42, 24 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
{{od}}
@Boris, I wonder if you are familiar with [[wp:PSTS]], [[wp:NPOV]] and [[wp:SYNTH]]? The English-language Wikipedia is based on ''secondary'' sources, not ''primary'' ones, in order to avoid the unguarded introduction of assertions which are not generally accepted by the academic mainstream or unbalanced [[wp:NPOV|points of view]]. It is hardly surprising that diplomatic telegrams and other writings by representatives of one side in a conflict would point blame at the head of the other side. That does not constitute reliable sourcing for anything more than "Writer x said y in source z". What x said might be complete or partial fiction, utterly accurate, or simply slightly biased - we can't reasonably make an assumption that it is accurate and neutral. That leaves for discussion only your [32] (Zubov ''et al.''). The fact that it is written in Russian limits our ability to readily assess it. Can you find similar assertions in an impartial English-language history in the same subject area, so that we can verify the authors consider it significant and present it neutrally? Perhaps {{OCLC|419798177}} or {{OCLC|153916302}} might address it? If not, we'd have to find some Russian-reading editors willing to examine the reliability of that source. That could be done by posting on a few noticeboards, but it is a less desirable choice as it leaves the source opaque to the majority of our readers. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 18:46, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
:LeadSongDog, in this case we can clearly distinguish primary and secondary sources: [http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Willy-Nicky_Telegrams Willy-Nicky Telegrams July 29 -1 August 1914]), and diplomatic documents (English, German and Russian "White Paper" of which James M. Beck writes in his book as about his primary sources) - all its are the primary sources. The books themselves (of James M. Beck, M. Paleologos and J. Buchanan) are obviously the secondary sources. Of course, these books are secondary RS. As for the book by A. Zubov (History of Russia. XX Century/ edited by Dr., Prof. Andrei Zubov.(Volume I, 1894-1939). - M.: AST Publishers, 2010), then it can be regarded as secondary or tertiary RS.
:Another thing is that all three of these books might appear to someone as "biased secondary sources" - in the sense that their authors believe Wilhelm II as instigator of the war, and they accuse of Wilhelm II that he has not responded to the telegram of Nicholas II. However, Wikipedia does not recommend the removal from the article the information of "biased sources," but WP recommends that supplement this information with other points of view. We read in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Achieving_neutrality WP WEIGHT (WP: Neutral point of view) (WP: Due and undue weight)]:
:“'''''As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased.''' Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone. Biased information can usually be balanced with material cited to other sources to produce a more neutral perspective, so such problems should be fixed when possible through the normal editing process. ''”
:- From the very beginning I talked about this to opponents. He did not do it, but just removed my information from the article. However, we can add my former information by the known point of view of the German Foreign Office (from James M. Beck 's book: “''the German Foreign Office in publishing the correspondence between the Kaiser and the Czar omitted this telegrams. '''The German Foreign Office has since explained that they regarded this telegram as too "_unimportant_" for publication.”''''').
:I think the addition might be the following (this text can be given in a footnote (as a footnote)):<blockquote>''According to the James M. Beck's book, '''the German Foreign Office in publishing the correspondence between the Kaiser and the Czar omitted this telegrams'''. The German Foreign Office has since explained that they regarded this telegram as too "_unimportant_". On the contrary, Russian Foreign Ministry (Minister Sazonov), as well as French Ambassador to Russia (M. Palaeologus) believed the telegram very important. M. Paleologos (and James M. Beck) in their books accused Kaiser Wilhelm that he had not supported the proposal of the Russian Tsar to submit the Austro-Serbian problem to The Hague Tribunal for adjustment, and thus Kaiser abandoned the chance for a peaceful resolution to this problem .''</blockquote>
:The bold test can be excluded, if opponents think it biased.
: P.S. As to me, I don't think that these three books (of James M. Beck, M. Paleologos and J. Buchanan) are the biased – because even such Germanophile as Vladimir Lenin wrote (in September 1914) that Wilhelm II wanted and started the WWI. However, I understand that these three books might appear to someone as "biased sources". Regards [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 16:06, 25 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov


*26 JUNE 2011 '''A further four secondary RS on the Nicholas's II telegram to Wilhelm II.'''

1. [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1517366&pageno=42 “Fighting for peace” by Henry Van Dyke. – New York. Charles Scribner's sons. 1917] (P.132-133). [[Henry Van Dyke]] wrote: ''“On the first point, I do not propose to retell the long story of the efforts supported by France, England, Italy, and Russia herself, to get Germany to consent to some plan, any plan, which might avert war by an appeal to reason and justice. To these efforts Germany answered in effect that she could not "coerce" her ally Austria. '''But one document in this line seems to me particularly interesting'''--even pathetic. It is a telegram sent by the late Czar Nicolas to his Imperial Cousin, Kaiser Wilhelm. It is dated July 29, 1914, and reads as follows: "Thanks for your telegram which is conciliatory and friendly, whereas the official message presented to-day by your Ambassador to my Minister was conveyed in a very different tone. I beg you to explain this divergency. It would be right to give over the Austro-Servian problem to The Hague Tribunal. I trust in your wisdom and friendship." "NICOLAS." – This telegram is not contained in the German White Book. But Professor von Mach gives it in his Official Diplomatic Documents (p. 596). I have been unable to find in any book, pamphlet, or collection of papers a trace of the Kaiser's answer. Probably he did not send one.”''

2. We read in [http://www.jstor.org/pss/25657027 “International Judical Settlement Trends” by James Oliver Murdock, Harold J. Tobin, Henry S. Fraser, Francis O. Wilcox and Willard B. Cowles Proceedings of the American Society of International Law at Its Annual Meeting (1921-1969) Vol. 34, (MAY 13-15, 1940), pp. 125-148] that ''Nicholas II “suggested that "it would be right to give over the Austro-Serbian problem to the Hague. Conference. [sic]''.”

3. We read in [http://www.gwpda.org/wwi-www/WarFacts/wfacts1.htm Arthur L. Frothingham. Handbook of War Facts and Peace Problems]: ''“'''Russia's Final Efforts at Conciliation.''' . . . It would be right to give over the Austro-Serbian problem to the Hague Tribunal. I trust in your wisdom and friendship.[The Tsar to the German Emperor, July 29, 1914.]'' If Austria, recognizing that the Austro-Serbian question has assumed the character of a European question, declares herself ready to eliminate from her ultimatum the points which are an infringement of the sovereign rights of Serbia, Russia undertakes to cease her military preparations.---[Revised form of same proposal, transmitted the next day, July 31, as follows.] If Austria agrees to arrest the advance of her troops on Serbian territory, and if, recognizing that the dispute between Austria and Serbia has assumed the character of a question of general European interest, she will allow the Great Powers to examine how Serbia can give satisfaction to Austria-Hungary without impairment of her rights as a sovereign and independent state, Russia will undertake to maintain her waiting attitude.[Russian Orange Book, Nos. 60, 67.]”

4. We read in [http://www.ww1accordingtobob.com/wcN.php War Cyclopedia – N]: ''“Nicholas II, Efforts to Maintain Peace. On July 29, 1914, Czar Nicholas sent the Kaiser the following telegram from -Tsarskoe Selo: "To H. M. the Kaiser of Germany: Thanks for your telegram, which is conciliatory and friendly, whereas the official message presented to-day by your ambassador to my minister was conveyed in a very different tone. I beg you to explain this divergency. It would be right to give over the Austro-Serbian problem to The Hague Tribunal. I trust in your wisdom -and friendship.-Nicholas." Not only did the Kaiser not answer that telegram but he suppressed it. And in the official German White Book, giving the documents about the war, this, the last-telegram of the Czar, has disappeared. The reason subsequently given by the German official-s for suppressing the telegram was that it was not interesting. '''Americans, however, are apt to think that the Czar's proposal to submit the whole Austro-Serbian problem to The Hague Tribunal was very interesting.''' The fact that the German Government was interested -In war may explain such tampering with the records. See Grey and British Policy in 1914; Mobilization Controversy; "Potsda7Th Conference"; Serbia, Austrian Ultimatum; William II.”''
[http://www.ww1accordingtobob.com/wcIntro.php War Cyclopedia: A Handy Reference on the Great War, published in 1918]

'''So, we have a total of eight secondary RS.''' Dear opponents, I ask you again: please reconsider your not constructive (and contrary to the rules of WP) position - or provide here new intelligible arguments against the inclusion of my information in the WP. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 16:51, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

*I think, now we can put the text as the following:

'''''July 29, Nicholas II sent the telegram to Wilhelm II, with the suggestion to submit the Austro-Servian problem to the [[Hague Conference]] (in [[Hague tribunal]]) – Wilhelm II did not respond to this telegram.[28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37].'''''

'''[28]''': ref>[[http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=1 The Evidence in the Case. A Discussion of the Moral Responsibility for the War of 1914, as Disclosed by the Diplomatic Records of England, Germany, Russia, France, Austria, Italy and Belgium.] by James M. Beck, LL.D. Late Assistant Attorney-General of the U. S. Author of "The War and Humanity."] ([http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=81 p.81], [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=106 p.106])</ref

'''[29]''': ref>[http://militera.lib.ru/memo/french/paleologue/index.html Palaeologus M.G. Tsarist Russia during World War. – Moscow. Publisher "International Relations", 1991] (page 155, 156 - in Russian); 1st Edition: Paléologue M.G. La Russie des Tsars pendant la grande guerre.— Paris: Plon, 1922. (Chapter XII); [http://www.gwpda.org/memoir/FrAmbRus/pal1-08.htm Maurice Paléologue. An ambassador's memoirs (Volume 1, Chapter VIII](see Sunday, January 31, 1915)</ref

'''[30]''':ref>[http://www.archive.org/stream/mymissiontorussi01buchuoft#page/200/mode/1up/search/+Hague G. Buchanan. «My Mission to Russia and other diplomatic memories», 1923 (P.200)]</ref

'''[31]''': ref>[http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1517366&pageno=42 “Fighting for peace” by Henry Van Dyke. – New York. Charles Scribner's sons. 1917] (P.132-133)</ref

'''[32]''': ref>[http://www.jstor.org/pss/25657027 “International Judical Settlement Trends” by James Oliver Murdock, Harold J. Tobin, Henry S. Fraser, Francis O. Wilcox and Willard B. Cowles Proceedings of the American Society of International Law at Its Annual Meeting (1921-1969) Vol. 34, (MAY 13-15, 1940), pp. 125-148]

'''[33]''': ref>[http://www.gwpda.org/wwi-www/WarFacts/wfacts1.htm Arthur L. Frothingham. Handbook of War Facts and Peace Problems]</ref

'''[34]: ref>[http://www.ww1accordingtobob.com/wcN.php A Handy Reference on the Great War, published in 1918 (War Cyclopedia – N)]</ref'''

'''[35]''': ref> History of Russia. XX Century/ edited by Dr., Prof. Andrei Zubov.(Volume I, 1894-1939). - M.: AST Publishers, 2010 . (P. 291)</ref

'''[36]''': ref>The data of all secondary sources are confirmed by primary sources (texts of telegrams from well-known [http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Willy-Nicky_Telegrams Willy-Nicky Telegrams July 29 -1 August 1914]).</ref

'''[37]''': ref>The German Foreign Office in publishing (the fall of 1914) the correspondence between the Kaiser and the Czar omitted this telegrams (the German Foreign Office has since explained that they regarded this telegram as too "_unimportant_" for publication). On the contrary, Russian Foreign Ministry (Minister Sazonov), as well as French Ambassador to Russia (M. Palaeologus) believed the telegram very important. M. Paleologos (also James M. Beck and others authors) in their books accused Kaiser Wilhelm that he had not supported the proposal of the Russian Tsar to submit the Austro-Serbian problem to The Hague Tribunal for adjustment, and thus Kaiser abandoned the chance for a peaceful resolution to this problem .</ref

*What are your opinion? [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:07, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

'''[[Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass|Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass]]''' [[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 18:33, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
: We read there: " It is not a Wikipedia policy." [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:43, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
'''[[Wikipedia:Get over it|Get over it]]'''[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 18:48, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
:We read there the same: " It is not a Wikipedia policy."[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:53, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
'''[[Wikipedia:Just drop it|Really time to just drop it]]''' <small>[[Wikipedia:Waste of Time|last post about this from me]]</small>[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 19:21, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
:[[Obsession|Hmm]]... [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 19:37, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

::Dear Moxy, why are you giving me the third time in reference to the WP's project pages which (quote) "It is not a Wikipedia policy"? - No one of my former '''seven''' opponents till now don't answered '''on the merits''' of my new redaction (with 8 RS!). May be their silence is a sign of agreement with my new proposal? Or, may be, they are thinking now? Anyhow , "a silence is a sign of agreement. ":) [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 19:47, 26 June 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::"silence is a sign of agreement" I assure you, it's not. It's a sign of recognition of the futility of trying to persuade you, akin to trying to [[Talk:Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge conspiracy theory|persuade]] the [[Pearl Harbor advance-knowledge conspiracy theory|conspiracy loons]] FDR didn't arrange the attack on Pearl Harbor or convince Greens PV cells don't actually work at night. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#00000">Marcel Marceau</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#536872"><sup><small>who are you telling to shut up?</small> </sup>]]</font> 20:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

::::So, three weeks have passed since I presented the three RS, and another two weeks have passed since I presented the four RS in addition. All these RS confirm that the telegram of Nicholas II was considered in the WWI (1914-1919) in Allies (France, Great Britain, Russia, USA) as an important proposal. Famous people have written about the telegram in his articles and memoirs. This telegram is mentioned even in the American Encyclopedia, 1918.
::::Earlier, my opponents argued their position by that fact that I gave one single reference to RS (M.Paleologos's book). Now we have 8 RS. And what? Where are your new arguments? [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 14:41, 10 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::Boris, you continue to confuse primary with secondary sources. Just because someone quotes or reprints a primary source (such as the telegrams) does not cause it to gain reliability. We use secondary sources because the publication of credible, independent, informed analysis by experts tells us what we can believe and what is [[wp:V|verifiably]] significant amongst all the divergent primary sources out there. And [[wp:V]] most definitely ''is'' policy. Now please, either bring ''real'' secondary sources with modern academic analysis, or let it drop. This campaign to change your namesake's reputation is misplaced.[[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 19:02, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
::::::Dear LeadSongDog, regarding primary and secondary sources, I have answered you in detail earlier (June 25). Famous Diplomats (M. Paleologos, J. Buchanan), Deputy U.S. Attorney General, the well-known foreign and Russian historians (including the modern ones — Dr. Zubov and others) - all of them are the experts on the theme. Even just the fact that they mentioned the telegram - this indicates its importance. And some of these experts have devoted entire sections of this telegram in their studies. Finally, I remind you again that this telegram is mentioned even in the American Encyclopedia, 1918.
::::::Regarding your comment that «this campaign to change your namesake's reputation is misplaced», then this observation has nothing to do with the merits of the topic and the rules of Wikipedia. Similarly the same, I would might blame all of my opponents is that they want to save the reputation of Wilhelm II, and so opponents do not want to include a reference to the Nicholas's II telegram in the Wikipedia entry.[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 20:31, 10 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::It seems that you ''still'' have not grasped why wikipedia considers [[wp:PSTS|primary sources]] to not be [[wp:RS|reliable sources]] in most cases. Your desire to use politicians, diplomats, and other first-person actors as experts is not what wikipedia does. We would use secondary sources that discuss the ideas they advanced, but pseudonymous wikipedia editors ''can not'' be trusted by readers, and so we ''must not'' substitute our own judgement for that found in the highest quality sources published: that would be [[wp:Original research]]. This principle pertains to the weight applied to different subject material as much as it does to simple assertions of fact. Out of all the sources you list, perhaps Zubov might be useful, but the others are all blatantly primary. You have not indicated how much emphasis Zubov gave this topic, or what he had to say about it. A translated quote might be helpful in conveying that to the primarily anglophone editors here. If you don't feel able to provide the translation, we can find a translator, given a succinct quotation. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 04:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
::::::::We read in Wikipedia ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Classifying_sources Primary source]):
::::::::«''For example, if a document refers to the contents of a previous but undiscovered letter, that document may be considered "primary", since it is the closest known thing to an original source; '''but if the letter is later found, it may then be considered "secondary"'''''»
::::::::We also read in Wikipedia ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_sources Secondary source]):
::::::::“'''''a secondary source is a document or recording that relates or discusses information originally presented elsewhere.''' A secondary source contrasts with a primary source, which is an original source of the information being discussed; a primary source can be a person with direct knowledge of a situation...”''
::::::::In this case, the primary sources are the official "White Books" of Russian Foreign Ministry and of the German Foreign Ministry (1914-1915), which was published diplomatic correspondence on the eve of war, including the discussing telegram. A post of Russian government newspaper (January 31, 1915 Petrograd "Governmental Herald", referred to by M. Palaeologus, in his book), is also a primary source. Accordingly, the memoirs of M. Paleologos, J. Buchanan, as well as all other listed my sources are secondary sources. Thus we have 8 secondary RS.
::::::::As for the book edited by A. Zubov, the events before WWI described there on two pages (pp. 290-291). The authors write about the telegram into the following content:
::::::::"The Emperor Nicholas entered into active correspondence with the Kaiser Wilhelm, trying to persuade him to make his Austrian ally, think again. '''"It would be right to give over the Austro-servian problem to the Hague conference. Trust in your wisdom and friendship" - wrote Russian Tsar to Kaiser.''' Advisers of Tsar (Minister of Foreign Affairs Sazonov, Minister of War Sukhomlinov and Chief of General Staff Yanushkevich) considered war inevitable, and insisted on general mobilization. They regarded the Kaiser's maneuvers as an attempt to to delay the mobilization of the Russian Army to the outbreak of war in Germany was in a better position than Russia. However, Nicholas understood the consequences of announcements of general mobilization, and he continued to fluctuate and was hoping for a chance to negotiate with Wilhelm. Germany demanded that Russia give up a general mobilization, threatening war otherwise. The feverish correspondence between the Tsar and the Kaiser did not lead to anything. 17 (30) July Nicholas II ordered a general mobilization." History of Russia. XX Century/ edited by Dr., Prof. Andrei Zubov.(Volume I, 1894-1939). - M.: AST Publishers, 2010 . (P. 291) [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 11:44, 11 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::::♠You've gone to enormous length proving the existence & authenticity of the telegram, which AFAIK nobody disputes. You have yet to say word one that I've noticed, despite more verbiage on a more trivial matter than I have seen on anything, anywhere, in my time on WP, about ''why it has significance''. For this, you will need ''actual reliable secondary sources''. Your continued, stubborn assertions of it notwithstanding, such evidence has not appeared. Two pages in one source do not establish ''significance''. Something like, I don't know, an entire book on the importance of the telegram would be a start. Or even an entire article in a scholarly journal. Mention by the [[Smallville|''Smallville Crow'']] or an appearance on the [[Chloe Sullivan|Wall of Weird]] doesn't get it.
:::::::::♠Moreover, I continue to be perplexed by your fixation on this issue. I fail to see how it could possibly be worth the effort. Unless you have some other agenda I don't follow. This is really beginning to make me tired. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 12:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC) (BTW, I'm not your "dear" anything, so you can quit with that, too.)
::::::::::So in essence, all this has been summarized by Zubov as "The feverish correspondence between the Tsar and the Kaiser did not lead to anything." Is that really worth including in the article?[[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 14:57, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::Yes, that is really worth including in the book by Zubov (p.291)
:::::::::::Yes, the feverish correspondence between the Tsar and the Kaiser did not lead to anything – we all know this, and this is seen in all eight secondary RS, I have listed. Nevertheless, all eight well-known authors of these RS wrote about this telegram of Nicholas II '''(one single telegram!) - from the many hundreds of documents MFA of Russia, Germany, Britain and France, which were published in the "White Papers" of the Foreign Ministry in these countries in 1914-1915 .''' Why are all these authors identify this single telegram? - The answer is obvious: because '''they think it was very important suggestion of Nicholas II, which would could pave the way for a peaceful solution of the Austro-Serbian problem.'''
:::::::::::Therefore, we must also mention this telegram in Wikipedia. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 16:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::::::::::Please [[wp:IDHT|remove the fingers from your ears]]. You have shown ''at most'' one reliable source. Secondary sources are not ''necessarily'' reliable. These ones you list are clearly ''not independent'', as explained above. If you still think they are, I suggest that you take the matter to [[wp:RSN|the reliable sources noticeboard]] for further discussion. Continuing to repeat the same thing here is nonsensical.[[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 20:39, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
:::::::::::::If I understand correctly, you now acknowledge my list (all 8 sources) as secondary sources, but do not consider them reliable and independent (except book by Zubov).
:::::::::::::Why do you think that my seven secondary sources are not reliable and independent? Please explain this for each of seven of my sources:

'''[1]''': ref>[[http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=1 The Evidence in the Case. A Discussion of the Moral Responsibility for the War of 1914, as Disclosed by the Diplomatic Records of England, Germany, Russia, France, Austria, Italy and Belgium.] by James M. Beck, LL.D. Late Assistant Attorney-General of the U. S. Author of "The War and Humanity."] ([http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=81 p.81], [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=106 p.106])</ref
*first person, contemporary, not independent
'''[2]''': ref>[http://militera.lib.ru/memo/french/paleologue/index.html Palaeologus M.G. Tsarist Russia during World War. – Moscow. Publisher "International Relations", 1991] (page 155, 156 - in Russian); 1st Edition: Paléologue M.G. La Russie des Tsars pendant la grande guerre.— Paris: Plon, 1922. (Chapter XII); [http://www.gwpda.org/memoir/FrAmbRus/pal1-08.htm Maurice Paléologue. An ambassador's memoirs (Volume 1, Chapter VIII](see Sunday, January 31, 1915)</ref

'''[3]''':ref>[http://www.archive.org/stream/mymissiontorussi01buchuoft#page/200/mode/1up/search/+Hague G. Buchanan. «My Mission to Russia and other diplomatic memories», 1923 (P.200)]</ref
* first person, not independent

'''[4]''': ref>[http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1517366&pageno=42 “Fighting for peace” by Henry Van Dyke. – New York. Charles Scribner's sons. 1917] (P.132-133)</ref
*first person, contemporary, not independent

'''[5]''': ref>[http://www.jstor.org/pss/25657027 “International Judical Settlement Trends” by James Oliver Murdock, Harold J. Tobin, Henry S. Fraser, Francis O. Wilcox and Willard B. Cowles Proceedings of the American Society of International Law at Its Annual Meeting (1921-1969) Vol. 34, (MAY 13-15, 1940), pp. 125-148]
*might have some value, will need closer review, but written during the dawn of WW2, so suspect on that grounds as advocating a US-centric position

'''[6]''': ref>[http://www.gwpda.org/wwi-www/WarFacts/wfacts1.htm Arthur L. Frothingham. Handbook of War Facts and Peace Problems]</ref
*contemporary, US-centric

'''[7]: ref>[http://www.ww1accordingtobob.com/wcN.php A Handy Reference on the Great War, published in 1918 (War Cyclopedia – N)]</ref'''
*blog

[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 21:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
*Really, did you even ''think'' these would be reliable? [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 05:34, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

:1. What do you mean “first person”?
:2. Please, give refer to WP rules that forbid to use books of “first person, contemporary, not independent”. Please, give refer to WP rules that mark such books as not RS. Please, give refer to WP rules that mark books by G. Buchanan, M.Palaeologus and other famous diplomats and politics as not RS. May be you declare Winston Churchill and his “The World Crisis 1916-1918” as “first person, contemporary, not independent” too?! :) – this source is such the same as books of G. Buchanan, M.Palaeologus.
:WP contains many thousand refers on such sources!
:3. As to item 7 of my list (A Handy Reference on the Great War, published in 1918) – this is not a blog. This book was published in USA by Division of Civic and Educational Cooperation of the state Committee on Public Information. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 11:20, 12 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::Would you ''PLEASE'' read and understand [[wp:PRIMARY]]? This repetition is growing very annoying. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 12:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
:::There ([[wp:PRIMARY]]) are no terms "first person", "contemporary", "independent" (or "not independent”). [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::Try [[wikt:first person]], [[wikt:contemporary]], [[wikt:independent]], or your friendly desk dictionary. I'm attempting to convey to you that your proposed sources are ones that do not have editorial independence from and neutrality about the subject matter. Diplomats and politicians argue for the interest of their states or their constituents. Where they know something that would harm those interests, they rarely publish that knowledge. That means they are not reliable sources. We normally only trust what they say when it works [[statement against interest|''against'' those interests]], paradoxical as that may seem. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 19:31, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
:::::Your arguments are beyond the scope of the rules of Wikipedia. You are not able to give references to the rules of WP. According to the rules of WP, all my sources are secondary RS (and item 7 – tertiary RS). Two out of eight of my RS can be considered as biased (books of M.Paleologos and James M. Beck), but the rules of WP are not recommended to delete text only for this reason (I have given appropriate references to the rule above). Six out of eight of my RS did not contain political assessments of the telegram of Nicholas II, and only report the fact of sending it to the Kaiser.
:::::The proposed additions don't now contain political assessments of the telegram Nicholas II (I do not give it quotes from the "biased" estimates of M.Paleologos and James M. Beck).
:::::Finally, M. Paleologos and J. Buchanan published his memoirs in 1920-th, after WWI and after the fall of the monarchy in Russia. Since they are both warmly welcomed the fall of the monarchy, they had no reason to mention the telegram Nicholas - but only because they considered it an important event - '''objectively'''. ''Politically '''it was disadvantageous for they''', to protect Nicholas in 1920-th.'' Thus, '''it is just the same case when «''We normally only trust what they say when it works against those interests, paradoxical as that may seem.''»'''
:::::So, I do not see any rules of Wikipedia, which prevents the publication of a short text on this telegram. Not to mention plain common sense that should prevail in the end to this protracted debate.[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 22:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

:::: (EC)"Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability." Secondary and tertiary sources, ie not first person, not contemporary, and independant. [[User:IdreamofJeanie|IdreamofJeanie]] ([[User talk:IdreamofJeanie|talk]]) 19:37, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
:::::♠"plain common sense that should prevail in the end to this protracted debate"? Are you serious? You've shown no sign of recognizing "plain common sense", let alone listening to it. The term "primary source" isn't a WP term, it's widely understood in hisoriography, & you are refusing to acknowledge its meaning, or even its existence. WP refuses to accept primary sources for their notorious unreliability: factual errors & biases are commonplaces.
:::::♠In addition, & I repeat, this all has a very strong smell of POV & somebody with an axe to grind. IDK what it is, but believe me, I would oppose any mention of anything connected to this telegram simply because you're trying so damn hard to get it in, no matter what sources you had. It's policy to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]]; I'm past that, now. You're trying way too hard for this not to have something else connected to it.
:::::♠Beyond that, you have yet to provide a single shred of evidence in this mountain of verbiage on the ''significance'' of this blasted telegram. Show secondary sources--plural, more than one--which illustrate how it changed the course of events. Show sources that do more than ''mention the damn telegram in passing'': one lousy line in a couple of sources ''is not'' evidence of significance, unless said line ''expressly says'', "This telegram changed the outcome".
:::::♠Failing that, & I expect you'll fail, do us all a favor: '''knock it off'''. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 04:59, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
:::::Agreed. I return from two weeks' holiday to find that you have continued this inane little circus, and I find it downright obscene. You clearly are a single-purpose account here to push a POV, and it will not be tolerated. I repeat: [[WP:LETGO|drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass]]. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 13:45, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
::::::The mention of Nicholas 's telegram in no way violates the principle of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view NPOV] and other rules of Wikipedia. Conversely, persistent obstruction mention this violates the principle of NPOV and other rules of Wikipedia. Some opponents have written that they "''will not permit to protect Nicholas II''" - and it is a direct violation of the principle of NPOV, the more that my addition does not contain a single word in his (Nicholas II) defense or the "glorification". Only the fact of sending of this important telegram. I wrote earlier, that charges against me may be deployed against you: your persistence can be explained by the desire to protect the Kaiser Wilhelm - and it is a violation of the principle of NPOV.
::::::'''Note also that I have never insulted opponents, while many of you do it''' against me.[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:43, 13 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::You've "never insulted opponents"? Don't you realize that ''is'' an insult? Wikipedia is a collaboration, not a [[wp:BATTLEGROUND]]. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 19:21, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
::::::::[[wp:BATTLEGROUND]]:''"Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement. Rather, approach the matter intelligently and engage in polite discussion. <...> Address only the factual points brought forward, ignoring the inappropriate comments, or disregard that user entirely."''
::::::::I fully and faithfully implement the recommendations. You and other opponents do not do. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 20:02, 13 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::::If you were to stop thinking of us as "opponents" and start thinking of us as "collaborators", "mentors" or even "coaches" we might make more headway. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 21:21, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

One more RS: ninth in the list (and the second a modern RS, in addition to the book of A.Zubov):
'''[9] D.C.B. Lieven. Russia and the Origins of the First World War. L., 1984'''

[http://www2.lse.ac.uk/internationalHistory/whosWho/academicStaff/lieven.aspx Professor Dominic C. B. Lieven],
[http://www.librarything.com/work/7829979 Russia and the Origins of the First World War]

Unfortunately, I can not tell right now the page of this book, in which the author writes about the telegram of Nicholas II (I don't have this book close at hand), but I hope to clarify this in the foreseeable future in one of the fundamental libraries in St. Petersburg.
If one of opponents has now this book, I would be grateful for a info of the desired page and the exact quote.:) [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 21:23, 13 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:I think I'm conversing with a wall. Anyhow, it would be ISBN 0-312-69608-6, {{OCLC|9111246}}. Held in many university libraries. Amazon shows one copy, used hardcover, for $190. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 22:20, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
::"I think I'm conversing with a wall." Word. I'll be interested to see how few lines this alleged new source contains on this matter. It does appear my prediction was correct, however. (Not a surprise. :( )
::"Do not insult, harass, or intimidate" I invite you to show any of these. Frustrated refusal to concede your point does not constitute any. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF">Karnak of Burbank</font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>the envelope, please</small> </sup>]]</font> 06:29, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

And else two more RS: tenth and eleventh in the list:

'''[10] Robert K.Massie. Nicholas and Alexandra. New York: 1967'''

p.320 in Russian edition (Massie gives the full text of the telegram of Nicholas II)[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 13:58, 20 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

'''[11] Winston Churchill. The unknown war. L.: C. Scribner's Sons, 1931'''

p.170. [http://books.google.com/books?hl=ru&id=S0AgAAAAMAAJ&q=Nicholas+II#search_anchor The unknown war. p.170]
[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 13:58, 20 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

:I was wrong. [http://books.google.com/books?hl=ru&id=S0AgAAAAMAAJ&q=Nicholas+II#search_anchor '''Three''' lines]. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF">Karnak of Burbank</font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>the envelope, please</small> </sup>]]</font> 21:20, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

And else one more RS:
'''[12] Richard F. Hamilton, Holger H. Herwig. Origins of World War One. Cambridge University Press, 2003''' (P.514)

So we have three primary sources (White books of Ministries of Foreign Affairs 1914-1915, and the Russian government newspaper, January 1915), and 12 secondary RS, including the 7 RS of 1915-1923, 1 RS of 1931 (the book by Winston Churchill) and 4 modern RS.

I reiterate my call for all participants of the discuss to give specific comments on the sources. I think we have enough RS to include information about the telegram of Nicholas II in the text WWI.[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 13:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)Boris Romanov

:Honestly, what part of "insignificant" do you not understand? The issue isn't the ''existence'' of the telegram. The issue is ''it's importance''. '''Three lines''' each in 12 sources, or in ''100'' sources, '''do not amount to significance'''. Show me '''one''' source dealing in its entirety with the telegram. Otherwise, will you just stop? [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 19:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
::I wrote earlier that M. Paleologus has devoted (in his book [1]) the entire chapter for this telegram. Deputy U.S. Attorney General, in his book ([2]) - several pages. He even wrote what (in his opinion) Kaiser Wilhelm should was to answer to Nicholas II.
::'''"''Insignificant''" – this is only your personal opinion''':Authors of these (12) RS have the opposite opinion: The fact that just only this telegram (one out of twenty) is mentioned in the 12 RS on WWI, proves that this telegram should be mentioned in the WP article on WWI. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 13:05, 24 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

Clearly no consensus for inclusion of this material so I suggest that the discussion is closed with no consensus for inclusion. Continually repeating the same point can be considered disruptive behaviour so unless anything new is raised I think this discussion can be closed, thanks. [[User:MilborneOne|MilborneOne]] ([[User talk:MilborneOne|talk]]) 13:46, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
{{collapsebottom}}
:«''Continually repeating the same point''»? - since 21 June, a few times I quoted more and more RS, and now we have twelve RS. Let me remind you that the initial (up to 21 June) consensus of seven my opponents was based on the fact that I quoted (up to 21 June) only one RS (M. Paleologos book). After 21 June, only two or three of former opponents (out of seven) continue to believe the telegram as "insignificant." It is their personal opinion clearly contradicts to opinion of the authors of 12 RS. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 09:46, 26 July 2011 (UTC)Boris Romanov

:::Could you please read over [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account]] - not sure your here to help the encyclopedia but rather to simply further this point.[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 15:24, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
::::::::I've been doing research from the reign of Nicholas II, and has published two books on the subject. I do not see anything wrong in what I wrote on Wikipedia that I know well. I don't advertise (PR) my books here. I write in various WP's articles what I know. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 12:14, 27 July 2011 (UTC)Boris Romanov

*Its unbelievable that this discussion is still dragging on. In an attempt to finalise it once and for all I am asking for a vote, to reach a consensus.
;Should the details of the telegram or any mention of the telegram being sent be included in the article? A simple support or oppose is required.
*'''Oppose''' [[User:Jim Sweeney|Jim Sweeney]] ([[User talk:Jim Sweeney|talk]]) 10:46, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
*'''Oppose.''' ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 14:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' [[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 15:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' and have a hunch it won't stop friend Boris arguing the point. :( [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#C90016"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 00:32, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 05:01, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
:*I vote '''"yes"'''. I'm glad to inform colleagues that the the book ([7] from my list) published in 1918, the newly re-released recently (in 2004):
::''A Handy Reference on the Great War / by F. L. Paxson, E. S. Corwin, S. B. Harding and G. S. Ford. Honolulu Hawaii USA: University Press of the Pacific, '''2004''''' (1st edition=1918)
::Although indirectly, but it demonstrates the relevance of the topic.
::And two more books from my list ([1], [4]), which were published in 1915-1917, now (in 2006-2010) published as E-book in a part of the projectProject Gutenberg Literary Archive Foundation ( www.gutenberg.org.) [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 20:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::Thus, only four of the former nine participants reaffirmed their previous position (''Oppose''), and one new member joined to the previous four. We can say that the consensus of nine members (which took place prior to June 21) broke up.[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 13:49, 18 August 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::The consensus is clearly against inclusion for the reasons given above.[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 14:25, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I think everyone here would agree at least that information about the telegram of Nicholas II certainly should be placed in Article WP [[Nicholas II of Russia]]. Meanwhile, July 30 [[User:Moxy|Moxy]] has removed ([https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=Nicholas_II_of_Russia&action=historysubmit&diff=442262764&oldid=442004444 diff 30 July, undo]) from the section [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Nicholas_II_of_Russia#World_War_I Nicholas II of Russia] the following text:
<blockquote>'''''July 29, Nicholas II sent a telegram to Wilhelm II, with the suggestion to transmit the Austro-Serbian question to the [[Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907|Hague Conference]]'''''[1] (in an [[Permanent Court of Arbitration]] in Hague). Wilhelm II did not respond to this telegram.[2][3][4]</blockquote>
The fact of removing this information from the article [[Nicholas II of Russia]] shows unequivocally that the reason for the reluctance of some participants to see the information about this telegram in the WP's articles is not its supposedly "insignificant", but - contrary - rather in its importance. Once again, the authors of the 12 RS considered this telegram as the main important one, and particularly distinguishes it from all 20 of telegrams exchanged between Nicholas II and Kaiser Wilhelm 28-31 July 1914.[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 14:32, 4 September 2011 (UTC)Boris Romanov
:I can't begin to tell you how unhappy I was to see your name appear on my watchlist once more... ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 15:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
::•facepalm• Some people just don't know when to quit... [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#8DB600"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 15:49, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
:::Both of your posts are offensive and violate the WP's rule of the inadmissibility go on personality (see '''[[Wikipedia:No personal attacks]]'''). Both of your posts also show that you do not have any objective arguments against my evidence of the importance of the discussion telegram.[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 16:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::No, we've presented all of our arguments and continue to stand by them. Nothing you have said changes anything. You are operating under the erroneous assumption that you can "win" an argument by dogmatically thrashing a dead horse and yelling [[WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT]] at the top of your lungs. In reality, all this does is erode your position. This tomfoolery has been shamelessly dragged out over several months now, and to tell you the truth, the rest of the editors here have gotten very tired of it. It's over. You can go home now. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 16:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
:::::Once more insult (see '''[[Wikipedia:No personal attacks]]''') that once again proves me right. For all time of the discussion, none of you could not say anything except "''this telegram is insignificant''." '''These your words mean nothing against opposite opinions of the authors of 12 RS.'''[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 16:37, 4 September 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
::::::Wikipedia is a collaborative community, [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|users whose personal agendas and actions]] appear to conflict with its purpose risk having their editing privileges removed. Are you [[Wikipedia:Here to build an encyclopedia|here to build an encyclopedia]]. [[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 16:51, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
:::::::Still, after all the above, we await a single modern, independent, reliable source. Repeated mischaracterizations of low-value sources as RS do not advance the discussion. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 19:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
::::::::What are the sources of this list do you think are not the RS (low-value, etc.)?
'''Winston Churchill is "low-value"? G. Buchanan? M.G. Palaeologus? James M. Beck (LL.D. Late Assistant Attorney-General of the U. S.)? Henry Van Dyke? James Oliver Murdock, Harold J. Tobin, Henry S. Fraser, Francis O. Wilcox and Willard B. Cowles? Arthur L. Frothingham? Robert K.Massie? D.C.B. Lieven? Richard F. Hamilton and Holger H. Herwig? Andrei Zubov, and almost forty of his co-authors (mostly with the degree of doctor and candidate of historical sciences)?'''
:Here's the list:
:'''[1]''': ref>[[http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=1 The Evidence in the Case. A Discussion of the Moral Responsibility for the War of 1914, as Disclosed by the Diplomatic Records of England, Germany, Russia, France, Austria, Italy and Belgium.] by James M. Beck, LL.D. Late Assistant Attorney-General of the U. S. Author of "The War and Humanity."] ([http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=81 p.81], [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=106 p.106])</ref
:'''[2]''': ref>[http://militera.lib.ru/memo/french/paleologue/index.html Palaeologus M.G. Tsarist Russia during World War. – Moscow. Publisher "International Relations", 1991] (page 155, 156 - in Russian); 1st Edition: Paléologue M.G. La Russie des Tsars pendant la grande guerre.— Paris: Plon, 1922. (Chapter XII); [http://www.gwpda.org/memoir/FrAmbRus/pal1-08.htm Maurice Paléologue. An ambassador's memoirs (Volume 1, Chapter VIII](see Sunday, January 31, 1915)</ref
:'''[3]''':ref>[http://www.archive.org/stream/mymissiontorussi01buchuoft#page/200/mode/1up/search/+Hague G. Buchanan. «My Mission to Russia and other diplomatic memories», 1923 (P.200)]</ref
:'''[4]''': ref>[http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1517366&pageno=42 “Fighting for peace” by Henry Van Dyke. – New York. Charles Scribner's sons. 1917] (P.132-133)</ref
:'''[5]''': ref>[http://www.jstor.org/pss/25657027 “International Judical Settlement Trends” by James Oliver Murdock, Harold J. Tobin, Henry S. Fraser, Francis O. Wilcox and Willard B. Cowles Proceedings of the American Society of International Law at Its Annual Meeting (1921-1969) Vol. 34, (MAY 13-15, 1940), pp. 125-148]
:'''[6]''': ref>[http://www.gwpda.org/wwi-www/WarFacts/wfacts1.htm Arthur L. Frothingham. Handbook of War Facts and Peace Problems]</ref
:'''[7]''': ref>[http://www.ww1accordingtobob.com/wcN.php A Handy Reference on the Great War, published in 1918 (War Cyclopedia – N)]</ref
:'''[8]''': ref>Winston Churchill. The unknown war. L.: C. Scribner's Sons, 1931</ref
:'''[9]''': ref>Robert K.Massie. Nicholas and Alexandra. New York: 1967</ref
:'''[10]''': ref> D.C.B. Lieven. Russia and the Origins of the First World War. L., 1984</ref'''
:'''[11]''': ref>Richard F. Hamilton, Holger H. Herwig. Origins of World War One. Cambridge University Press, 2003</ref'''
:'''[12]''': ref> History of Russia. XX Century/ edited by Dr., Prof. Andrei Zubov.(Volume I, 1894-1939). - M.: AST Publishers, 2010 . (P. 291)</ref

What kind of these RS you reject and why? [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 21:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

:♠Yet again, you have utterly, abjectly failed to demonstrate ''the significance'' of the telegram. You can, as I said before, have ''100'' sources showing ''its existence''. ''That proves nothing''. AFAIK, nobody here doubts the telegram ''exists''. (I have a strong conviction it would have been aired before now if anyone had.) What remains in dispute is ''its importance'', & you are ''nowhere close'' to showing that. You aren't even ''in sight'' of showing that. Nor, it appears, will you ever be.
:♠I continue to be dubious of your motives in doing this, especially since you keep coming back to it, as if you're hoping nobody will notice. (FYI, this ''is'' pushing the limits on NPA, I think, & I will take the heat if it is. I stand by this.) The more you do this, the more I wonder why, & the more strongly opposed I become to it ''ever'' being added.
:♠This has a smell of [[willful blindness]]. Do us all, & yourself, a favor. Show me I'm wrong. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#8DB600"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 00:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
::I wrote earlier that M. Paleologus has devoted (in his book [2]) the entire chapter for this telegram. Deputy U.S. Attorney General, in his book ([1]) - several pages. He even wrote what (in his opinion) Kaiser Wilhelm should was to answer to Nicholas II. And '''the fact that <u>only just this telegram (one out of twenty'''</u> from the correspondence between Nicholas II and Wilhelm 28-31 July 1914) '''is mentioned in these 12 RS on WWI, proves that this telegram was very importance - and now it should be mentioned in the WP article on WWI (and in [[Nicholas II of Russia]]).'''[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 10:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

::Not to mention the fact that your blatant [[WP:FORUMSHOPPING]] on [[Talk:Nicholas II of Russia#July 29, (1914) Nicholas II sent a telegram to Wilhelm II, with the suggestion to submit the Austro-Serbian problem to the Hague Conference]] makes your motives look even more suspect. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 00:11, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
:::TY. That reassures me my nose for bullshit is as good as ever. :) Can't always say how I know, but I'm really good at knowing it's there. :) (Modesty is one of my better qualities. ;p ) [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#8DB600"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 01:02, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
::::This telegram is directly related to the themes of [[World War I]] ('''[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/World_War_I#Background "Backgraund of WWI"]''') and also [[Causes of World War I]]('''[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_I#Web_of_alliances Web of alliances]''') and also [[Nicholas II of Russia]] ('''[https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Nicholas_II_of_Russia#World_War_I World War I]'''). Therefore, the information about this important telegram should be placed in the relevant sections of these WP articles. These obvious considerations have nothing to do with [[WP:FORUMSHOPPING]] (much information is repeated (duplicated) in these three sections of these articles and all these duplicate are needed in all three articles.) If you think that is enough to place the information on this telegram in only one of these WP articles, I am ready to discuss it. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 10:53, 5 September 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::"This telegram is directly related to the themes of World War I." This telegram is a trivial incident. And your failure here, & subsequent attempt elsewhere, is as clear a case of forum shopping as I can imagine. [[User:Trekphiler|<font color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font color="#8DB600"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 16:30, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
::::::Your opinion coincides only just with that of the German Foreign Office of the fall of 1914 (see [1]: <small>[[http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1630347&pageno=1 "The Evidence in the Case. A Discussion of the Moral Responsibility for the War of 1914, as Disclosed by the Diplomatic Records of England, Germany, Russia, France, Austria, Italy and Belgium" by James M. Beck, LL.D. Late Assistant Attorney-General of the U. S.] - p.106</small>). However, even the German Foreign Office yet changed its position in 1915 and published this telegram. '''So, you still (!) stand on the position of the German Foreign Office of the fall of 1914! :)))''' [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:21, 5 September 2011 (UTC) Boris Romanov

I think that the information about the telegram of Nicholas II should be placed also in WP-articles [[Causes of World War I]] (section "Web of alliances") and [[Nicholas II of Russia]] (section "World War I")[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 20:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC) Борис Романов
:Still no change from two/three months ago. No need to go through this again [[User:Jim Sweeney|Jim Sweeney]] ([[User talk:Jim Sweeney|talk]]) 21:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
::During the time since the beginning of the discussion I have presented nearly 10 new RS about the telegram of Nicholas II, dated July 29, 1914. During this same time, opponents have not raised any new arguments against the publication of information about this telegram in the Wikipedia article ([[World War I]]).[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 14:06, 4 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::" I have presented nearly 10 new RS" And not a single source explaining ''why this is anything but trivia''. Which position you've wilfully ignored in pushing your own POV. Stop, already. This was really old in September. It's not gotten more attractive. [[User:Trekphiler|<font face="cursive" color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font face="cursive" color="#008000"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 15:32, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::I have gone ahead and removed this from 2 other articles - [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account]].[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 17:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::Over 10 RS describe this telegram of Nicholas II as an important document. Your opinion of this telegram ("unimportant", "minor event", etc.) is only match with the position of the German Foreign Office of autumn of 1914 ! [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 20:20, 4 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::"Over 10 RS describe this telegram of Nicholas II as an important document." No, they don't. I've looked at them. They give it passing mention as a fact in the diplomacy around the war. Show me ''just one'' source written ''entirely'' about the telegram. There are books about the [[Zimmermann Telegram]]. There are substantial portions of books (I haven't seen an entire one) about the [[Attack on Pearl Harbor#Japanese declaration of war|14-Part Message]]. These are substantial, important events. If the telegram you're offering ''is'' important, ''show me the coverage''. I've asked this a couple of times. You've failed to demonstrate it. Your ''belief'' in it ''does not make it so''. Until, unless, you can ''show'' this item has had ''substantial'' coverage, ''it's trivia''. That's not my view: that's what the historiography says, ''or there would be more coverage of it''. Show me, or stop. You're persuading nobody. [[User:Trekphiler|<font face="cursive" color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font face="cursive" color="#008000"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 21:54, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::::I wrote earlier that M. Paleologus has devoted (in his book [2]) the entire chapter for this telegram. Deputy U.S. Attorney General, in his book ([1]) - several pages. He even wrote what (in his opinion) Kaiser Wilhelm should was to answer to Nicholas II. And the fact that '''only just this telegram (one out of twenty from the correspondence between Nicholas II and Wilhelm 28-31 July 1914) is mentioned in these 12 RS on WWI''', - this fact proves that this telegram was very importance. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 09:54, 5 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::::Will you just drop Paleologue already? We have been over this again and again and again and again: '''''he is not a reliable secondary source'''''. What will it take to get that through your head? You've been at this for ''months'' now; do you really think that rehashing the same weak arguments over and over again ad infinutum is going to change anyone's mind? Bottom line: ''your pet theory will not make it into this article''. It is insignificant. Nobody cares. Now leave. ~~ [[User:Lothar von Richthofen|Lothar von Richthofen]] ([[User talk:Lothar von Richthofen|talk]]) 16:23, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::File this one under "some people never learn"... [[User:Trekphiler|<font face="cursive" color="#3F00FF"><small>TREKphiler</small></font>]] [[User talk:Trekphiler|<font face="cursive" color="#008000"><sup><small>any time you're ready, Uhura</small> </sup>]]</font> 17:30, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::::In all fairness, it should probably be pointed out that this telegram is discussed by both [[Martin Gilbert]] (''The First World War: A Complete History'', 1994, p. 27) and [[John Keegan]] (''The First World War'', 1998, p. 63) and the result of the telegraphic correspondence between the Tsar and the Kaiser (sc. the cancellation of full Russian mobilization on 29 July, the day this telegram was sent) by [[Hew Strachan]] (''The First World War, Vol I: To Arms'', 2001, p. 85). Incidentally, there is confusion in the References section between this latter book (published by OUP) and Strachan's confusingly similarly titled ''The First World War'', published by Viking in 2003. [[User:Wally Wiglet|Wally Wiglet]] ([[User talk:Wally Wiglet|talk]]) 00:06, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::::::::Dear Dr. Wally Wiglet, thank you very much for the information. So, we have now 15 RS in supporting my point of view (see my post of September 4, 2011, with listing twelve RS, plus three new RS in the message of Dr. Wally Wiglet). It should be noted that six of the fifteen RS written and published after 1984 (in 1984-2010), and three RS which were written and published in 1915-1918, were reprinted in 2004-2010 (see my post of July 29, 2011).
::::::::::::So, I once again urge the last four participants of the discussion (Moxy, TREKphiler, Jim Sweeney and Lothar von Richthofen) to show objectivity and agree with the obvious needing to complement the Wikipedia articles with information about the telegram of Nicholas II to Kaizer (July 29, 1914) with proposal to submit the Austro-Serbian problem to The Hague tribunal. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 14:44, 7 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::::::::I would suggest discussing it in [[The Willy-Nicky Correspondence|the article that already exists on the subject of the telegrams]]. A short link in this article, along the lines of "A [[The Willy-Nicky Correspondence|flurry of telegrams]] between the Kaiser and the Tsar led to the cancellation of Russian general mobilization by the Tsar on 29 July, but this was resumed on 31 July. (Refs: Strachan (2001), p. 85; Gilbert (1994), p.27; Keegan (1998), p. 63)" might prove unexceptionable. [[User:Wally Wiglet|Wally Wiglet]] ([[User talk:Wally Wiglet|talk]]) 18:31, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
{{ec}}
:::::::::::::No Boris, we have three RS that Wally Wiglet identified, not fifteen. Your continued effort to push a long list of unreliable, primary, and first-party sources does not help your argument. Thank you Wally for identifying these sources for our attention. So, what do Keegan, Strachan and Gilbert each have to say on the subject? Do they give it more than passing mention? Do any of them conclude it was really a turning point? Your point about Strachan's titles is quite an understatement: it appears looking through cataloguing data that the massive ''Vol 1: To Arms'' was never followed by the intended Vols 2 and 3, but rather by various subsets of ''To Arms'' in more saleable 300 pp chunks. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 18:43, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

::::::::::::::I think that the fact that these telegrams are mentioned by three of the standard works on the subject makes them, almost by definition, notable. As to what is said in these sources, Strachan mentions the telegram from the Kaiser on 29 July (which prompted the Hague conference telegram) as the reason for the Russian return to partial mobilization. Keegan is dismissive, describing the Tsar as "pathetically" suggesting giving over the Austro-Servian [sic] conflict to the Hague conference. Gilbert is more generous in his assessment of both the Tsar's and the Kaiser's actions and devotes almost a page to the issue. In my opinion, the fact these telegrams led the Tsar to cancel general mobilization (and to try, unsuccessfully, to cancel partial mobilization), even thought he was later persuaded (on German partial mobilization) to reverse this decision, makes them notable. Was it a turning point? No, but it might have been. As Lloyd George said, "We all muddled into war." [[User:Wally Wiglet|Wally Wiglet]] ([[User talk:Wally Wiglet|talk]]) 19:51, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::LeadSongDog, "''primary, and first-party sources''" in this case are "The White Books" of Foreign Offices of Russia and Germany of 1914-1915, and also [http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/The_Willy-Nicky_Telegrams "The Willy-Nicky Telegrams"] (The Kaiser's letters to the Tsar, copied from the government archives in Petrograd, and brought from Russia by Isaac Don Levine, ed., with an introduction by N.F. Grant. London, Hodder and Soughton Ltd, 1920) and also "The Official Messenger of Petrograd" of January 31, 1915, where the telegram on Nicholas II of July 29, 1914 was published at first time in Russia.
:::::::::::::::Thus, all my 12 sourсes (and 3 sourсes of Wally Wiglet) are secondary RS. And I repeat once more: three of my 12 RS are written and published after 1984 (in 1984-2010), and else three of my 12 RS which were written and published in 1915-1918, were reprinted in 2004-2010 (see my post of July 29, 2011).
:::::::::::::::As to "''unreliable sources''", - Winston Churchill is "unreliable" or "low-value" sources?! G. Buchanan? James M. Beck (LL.D. Late Assistant Attorney-General of the U. S.)? Henry Van Dyke? James Oliver Murdock, Harold J. Tobin, Henry S. Fraser, Francis O. Wilcox and Willard B. Cowles? Arthur L. Frothingham? Robert K.Massie? D.C.B. Lieven? Richard F. Hamilton and Holger H. Herwig? Andrei Zubov, and almost forty of his co-authors (mostly with the degree of doctor and candidate of historical sciences)? [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 20:18, 7 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov
{{od}}No, Boris, we've been over this before, but you seem not to listen. There is no way that we can consider Churchill (1931) as impartial in describing an exchange between his recent ally and his recent foe. He later admitted in 1948: "For my part, I consider that it will be found much better by all Parties to leave the past to history, especially as I propose to write that history." (usually this is misquoted as "History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.") It is just as silly to think that a contemporary ambassador or attorney-general for a belligerent would be impartial. A categorical compendium of correspondence does not constitute a secondary analysis of that correspondence: it does not aid us in assessing its accuracy or significance. For that we rely on serious scholars' works written after many years had passed. A.B. Zubov {{OCLC|636388546}} ''might'' be useful, but this is the English Wikipedia, and few here are equipped to translate reliably from Russian works. We'd need a published translation, at least of the relevant part. Hamilton and Herwig (2003) are RS, but their conclusion on p.180 is: "The telegrams at best served to maintain the policies of deception." In other words, they were inconsequential. I'm not seeing how that reinforces your position. Perhaps you'd like to consider Wally Wiglet's suggestion? [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 22:01, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
:Wikipedia does not recommend the removal from the article the information of "''biased sources''," but WP recommends that supplement this information with other points of view. We read in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Achieving_neutrality WP WEIGHT (WP: Neutral point of view) (WP: Due and undue weight)]:
:“'''''As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased.''' Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone. Biased information can usually be balanced with material cited to other sources to produce a more neutral perspective, so such problems should be fixed when possible through the normal editing process. ''”
:- From the very beginning I talked about this to opponents. You (Moxy and others) did not do it, but just removed my information from the article. However, we can add my former information by the known point of view of the German Foreign Office (from James M. Beck 's book: “''the German Foreign Office in publishing the correspondence between the Kaiser and the Czar omitted this telegrams. '''The German Foreign Office has since explained that they regarded this telegram as too "_unimportant_" for publication.”''''').
:I think the addition might be the following (this text can be given in a footnote (as a footnote)):<blockquote>''According to the James M. Beck's book, the German Foreign Office in publishing the correspondence between the Kaiser and the Czar omitted this telegrams. The German Foreign Office has since explained that they regarded this telegram as too "_unimportant_". On the contrary, Russian Foreign Ministry (Minister Sazonov), as well as French Ambassador to Russia (M. Palaeologus) believed the telegram very important. M. Paleologos (and James M. Beck) in their books accused Kaiser Wilhelm that he had not supported the proposal of the Russian Tsar to submit the Austro-Serbian problem to The Hague Tribunal for adjustment, and thus Kaiser abandoned the chance for a peaceful resolution to this problem .''</blockquote>
: P.S. As to me, I don't think that these books (of W.Churchill, James M. Beck, M. Paleologos and J. Buchanan) are the biased – because even such Germanophile as Vladimir Lenin wrote (in September 1914) that Wilhelm II wanted and started the WWI in 1914. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 09:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov

Thus, taking into account the valuable message and comments of Dr. Wally Wiglet, I propose to include in the article [[The Willy-Nicky Correspondence]] the following:

:'''July 29, 1914 Nicholas II sent the telegram to Wilhelm II, with the suggestion to submit the Austro-Servian problem to the [[Hague Conference]] (in [[Hague tribunal]]) – Wilhelm II did not respond to this telegram [1-12].'''
:'''According to the James M. Beck's book [1], the German Foreign Office in publishing the correspondence between the Kaiser and the Czar omitted this telegrams. The German Foreign Office has since explained that they regarded this telegram as too "_unimportant_". On the contrary, Russian Foreign Ministry (Minister Sazonov), as well as French Ambassador to Russia (M. Palaeologus) believed the telegram very important [2]. M. Paleologos (and James M. Beck) in their books accused Kaiser Wilhelm that he had not supported the proposal of the Russian Tsar to submit the Austro-Serbian problem to The Hague Tribunal for adjustment, and thus Kaiser abandoned the chance for a peaceful resolution to this problem [1,2].'''
:'''A [[The Willy-Nicky Correspondence|flurry of telegrams]] between the Kaiser and the Tsar led to the cancellation of Russian general mobilization by the Tsar on 29 July, but this was resumed on 31 July.''' (Refs: Strachan (2001), p. 85; Gilbert (1994), p.27; Keegan (1998), p. 63)

In the articles WP [[Causes of World War I]], [[World War I]] and [[Nicholas II of Russia]] I propose that the abbreviated text:
:'''July 29, 1914 Nicholas II sent the telegram to Wilhelm II ([[The Willy-Nicky Correspondence]]), with the suggestion to submit the Austro-Servian problem to the [[Hague Conference]] (in [[Hague tribunal]]) – Wilhelm II did not respond to this telegram [1-15].'''
[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 11:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov

:::Is it your belief that by ignoring the majority of editors and constantly returning to this issue that somehow you will gain consensus? It would probably be better to drop this issue and look for more plausible ways to improve the article. [[User:HammerFilmFan|HammerFilmFan]] ([[User talk:HammerFilmFan|talk]]) 17:53, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Now the detail information of the Nicholas's telegram is posted in the article [[The Willy-Nicky Correspondence]] - in the wording of [[User: LeadSongDog]] ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Willy-Nicky_Correspondence&action=history dif]). Therefore, this article (or\and the [[Causes of World War I]]) is expedient to place the abbreviated information about this telegram:

'''July 29, 1914 Nicholas II sent the telegram to Wilhelm II ([[The Willy-Nicky Correspondence]]), with the suggestion to submit the Austro-Servian problem to the [[Hague Conference]] (in [[Hague tribunal]]) – Wilhelm II did not respond to this telegram [1-15].'''

[[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 16:10, 17 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov

OMG again? Besides that its not relevant. You are aware that he did reply right? He simply did not mention the Hague Conference in his reply. So why do you keep saying he did not reply to the telegram when he did do you mean to say that a part of the telegram was not reply to? I have change the text you have added in the other artile to "– Wilhelm II did not address the question of the Hague Conference in his subsequent reply"[[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 18:21, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
:Well, I agree with your clarification. I'll post the text in the article in your edition. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 18:54, 17 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::I did not mean to add it here at all...I fixed the info were its relevant at [[The Willy-Nicky Correspondence]]. I still dont think we need it here. We have no need to regurgitate the same thing all over. Its at [[Nicholas II of Russia]] because it is linked in the article to [[The Willy-Nicky Correspondence]] were its some what relevant (this could also be debated). I also dont see the need at to add to [[Causes of World War I]]. Could we get you not to spam this all over pls [[User:Moxy|Moxy]] ([[User talk:Moxy|talk]]) 19:08, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
::::I think that the '''short''' information on this telegram must be located or in this article ([[World War I]]) or\and in [[Causes of World War I]] [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 19:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::Short, as in "Nicholas II and Wilhelm exchanged [[the Willy-Nicky Correspondence|several telegrams]] in late July 1914, at most delaying the Russian mobilization by two days." More than that would give it unfounded [[wp:WEIGHT]]. Cites to the three modern academic sources only. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 20:50, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

:::::That was what my "A flurry of telegrams..." sentence was supposed to do, but somehow it got into the wrong article. [[User:Wally Wiglet|Wally Wiglet]] ([[User talk:Wally Wiglet|talk]]) 15:59, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::Well, Dr. Wally Wiglet: let be reference to [[The Willy-Nicky Correspondence]] ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Willy-Nicky_Correspondence "A flurry of telegrams..."]) in this article ([[World War I]]) - However we read in [[Causes of World War I]]:
::::::* '''July 29: Sir Edward Grey appeals to Germany to intervene to maintain peace.'''
::::::Do you think that this appeal of Sir Edvard Grey deserves a mention in the article [[Causes of World War I]] and the appeal (telegram) of Nicholas II is not worth mentioning in [[Causes of World War I]]? I think, it is "double standards" for the article [[Causes of World War I]] [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 17:34, 19 January 2012 (UTC) Boris Romanov
:::::::That's not a question for here, it is for [[Talk:Causes of World War I]]. [[User:LeadSongDog|LeadSongDog]] <small>[[User talk:LeadSongDog#top|<font color="red" face="Papyrus">come howl!</font>]]</small> 20:23, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
::::::::Well, LeadSongDog, - I propose to put this information (about the telegram) in [[Causes of World War I]] (see [[Talk:Causes of World War I]]) - and in this case, I'll not push to put this information in this WP article ([[World War I]]), and we will finish the discussion in this thread. [[User:Борис Романов|Борис Романов]] ([[User talk:Борис Романов|talk]]) 14:45, 1 April 2012 (UTC)Boris Romanov


== Date Correction for Doullens Conference ==
== Date Correction for Doullens Conference ==

Revision as of 21:35, 1 April 2012

Former featured articleWorld War I is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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Date Correction for Doullens Conference

In the section entitled "German Spring Offensive of 1918", it states, "A Supreme War Council of Allied forces was created at the Doullens Conference on 5 November 1917." However, the actual date for the Doullens Conference was March 26, 1918. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoeGiblin (talkcontribs) 01:38, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Too long

I suggest adding {{Too long}} to the page wih the hope of decreasing the length of the article, thereby improving the ease of navigability, and appropriately summarising the key points of the article. Plasmic Physics (talk) 05:56, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is there some argument for this that has not already been discussed in the archives of this talkpage? This article is ranked at 163 on the wp:Long pages, behind many less significant ones. In any case, few users are still running IE6 or Firefox 2.0, which had problems when pages reached 400k. LeadSongDog come howl! 07:37, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Whether it has been discussed or not, is not the issue. There remains problems which have not been solved despite all that discussion. Decreasing the length, is simply a means to an end, and not the main focus. Plasmic Physics (talk) 08:09, 7 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the tag, leaving a detailed edit summary. As it was reverted without so much as a word of explanation, I undid the revert. As I said in the summary, certian articles are naturally going to be longer than others; the 2 World Wars particularly so. If you truly feel the article is "too long", you should either begin making some bold edits to reduce it, or propose some ideas here as to what exactly you think should be removed. Simply slapping a tag on it is lazy, sloppy editing. Joefromrandb (talk) 22:53, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like being called lazy, it would do you well to actally read the comments here rather than ignore them, a comment was also left in the tag itself. Plasmic Physics (talk) 23:50, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't call you lazy. I called one specific incident of your editing lazy. Big difference. Joefromrandb (talk) 01:04, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

An incident of editting is an inanimate, intangible object; it cannot be lazy or hardworking. In any case, this is besides the point. Plasmic Physics (talk) 05:42, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's also quite pedantic. I'm sure you know what I meant. Joefromrandb (talk) 06:22, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. My work is what it is because of me; you're calling me lazy. Are you actually going to discuss the issue of the tag, or whether or not you insulted me. Plasmic Physics (talk) 07:42, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've already discussed the tag and I've already stated that I didn't call you lazy. Joefromrandb (talk) 08:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're still obsessed with the lazy issue. You have not discussed the tag, you just made a statement (which does not take account of the preceding comments in this section, nor the comment in the tag.) Plasmic Physics (talk) 09:27, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Talk pages are for discussion of the article, not for petty quibbling or chat. Please stick to the topic, thank you.Mediatech492 (talk) 14:50, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, you don't have an legitimate reason for contesting the template? Plasmic Physics (talk) 00:34, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

the article is not too long--it covers one of the most complex events in world history--one that involved many countries and has a huge amount of RS to sort through. It is divided up so that most people can find what they want quickly enough. Rjensen (talk) 00:41, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are not listening, I don't care about the length of the article. Plasmic Physics (talk) 01:54, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"I don't care about the length of the article." Then what possible reason could you have for a "too long" tag? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 02:19, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As the tag suggests, the article is a challenge to navigate effectively. The artcle looks like a pot-luck of sections and sub-sections. Plasmic Physics (talk) 02:48, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

that's a poor reason--anyone with a high school education can easily handle the navigation. Rjensen (talk) 03:20, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Then why don't list the template for deletion then? Plasmic Physics (talk) 03:26, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When there are few or no sections and sub-sections at all things are very hard to navigate. Were good sections and sub-sections are much more helpful to navigate. What is your proposal in detail? Moxy (talk) 03:36, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a detailed plan, but I recommend a better selection of sections and subsections than the current overspecified and obscure ones. Perhaps some with main article redirects can be removed and mentioned as a wikilink in a sentence instead. Plasmic Physics (talk) 06:00, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Which ones? Joefromrandb (talk) 00:32, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relevant and referenced material being removed

The following paragraph was added under the Opposition heading of this wikipedia page on the 13th of December 2011, it was then removed, and has since been added again. Is there any explanation why this material was removed? I will leave the paragraph here, as all the references check out:

The discussion of the opposition to the War in Ireland must include the controversial experience of an Irish Soldier fighting in the British Army. An experience that has been described as one of institutional discrimination, on average one British soldier out of every 3,000 was court martialed and executed by firing squad during the war, in comparison to the much higher, one out of every 600 Irish Soldiers[1]. The disproportionate number of Irish executions began in 1914, before the outbreak of the Irish Easter Rising of 1916 [2].

Boundarylayer (talk) 09:44, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The deletion was justified. The whole addition is WP:OPED and gives undue weight to the topic; this is a general article, after all. Furthermore, the accompanying image is off topic. --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:55, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Old Moonraker, and have removed the material. This article is about the global war, and including that material here adds undue weight to the topic. Nick-D (talk) 10:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the deletion. I've now done the Easter Rising image, as well. --Old Moonraker (talk) 10:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.monbiot.com/2008/11/11/lest-we-forget/ and http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWudc.htm and was added in this edit. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]