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May 29

Are the Hindu goddesses Tataka and Kali one and the same?

Are the Hindu goddesses Tataka and Kali one in the same? Venustar84 (talk) 02:07, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

FYI, the phrase is "one and the same". You have apparently read the relevant articles, given you have (with all credit due you) linked them in your section header. The first is described as a princess turned demoness, the second only as divine. So, given there is almost no overlap between the two, and no mention of either in the other, is there some reason you believe they might be identical? (We should know if there is some external source you are aware of that implies this.) μηδείς (talk) 02:49, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Hindu mythology has a concept that a god or person can be an avatar of a god with different characteristics, as for example Rama and Krishna are avatars of Vishnu. So I think we can't rule out that some people consider Tataka an avatar of Kali -- but I can't spot any evidence for that. Looie496 (talk) 14:41, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't Kali repent being a destroyer goddess and Tataka does represent destruction as well? Venustar84 (talk) 21:44, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps, but drawing conclusions is not what we do here professionally. Perhaps someone can name a Hindu or Comparative Religion forum? μηδείς (talk) 00:38, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm not asking for a professional answer. I'm asking the question for my personal interest and I'm not looking to add religious info in the Hindu article.

I couldn't find Tataka mentioned on Beliefnet, but I could find Kali. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:47, 30 May 2013 (UTC) Found her on Godchecker spelt differently. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:50, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Extending my question: Is there any where online I could buy a statue of Tataka? Venustar84 (talk) 05:14, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Airliner (not aircraft) identification

Saw a massive commercial airliner fly overhead a few days ago, four-engine, and I think it was a 747. But what I'm curious about is the paint job. The front half of the plane was all white, the rear fuselage and tail were all red. The red did not fill up the entirety of the bottom of the fuselage. Any ideas what airliner or cargo company this could be? – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 06:14, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Airline liveries and logos change all the time, but if you can tell us which airport you were near, it would help us to narrow it down.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:40, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

There are also a LOT of one-off paint jobs, either single planes under private ownership or special paint jobs from commercial carriers. Consider, if you will, the plane Bruce Dickinson flew for Iron Maiden on their Somewhere Back in Time World Tour. That's not the plane you're looking for, but it does show one example of a plane with a unique paint job. --Jayron32 12:05, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Was it anything like Shenzhen Airlines? Or was it really dead plain, with no lettering or other markings at all? - Karenjc 17:56, 29 May 2013 (UTC) As this demonstrates, the ratio of red to white can vary considerably between individual aircraft. - Karenjc 18:02, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Value of petroleum distillates produced globally

I'm after a breakdown of the total value of different petroleum distillates produced globally. By this I mean, say, what proportion by value produced is gasoline, what proportion kerosine and others.--Leon (talk) 07:04, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Here: [1] is a per-unit retail price of various petroleum distillates. If you can also find data for the total production of such products, you could fairly easy calculate this. --Jayron32 12:02, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

If...Does anyone know where to find total production figures?--Leon (talk) 12:56, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Here. There's menus where you can select each individual product, and where you can break down the analysis by region, country, or for the whole world. --Jayron32 13:58, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Two similar Acts

Is the Civil Rights of Institutionalized Persons Act the same as the "Patient's Rights Act 1980"?--Auric talk 17:00, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Departure taxes in non-native currency

Many countries ask a departure tax (or similar tax) be paid before a visitor is allowed to leave. However, I find it rather odd that many demand this is paid in cash (rather then credit card) and some insist it is paid in another currency - for example, when leaving Suriname one must pay $66 or €52. It cannot be paid in Surinamese dollars. So what happens if you are willing to pay the tax but are unable to do so, either because you have no cash left or you don't have the right currency? Astronaut (talk) 19:06, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

You may miss your flight and have some trouble. Go to an ATM or a currency exchange and get some.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:56, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

ATM? How could you get US dollars or Euros from a Surinamese ATM? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:14, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

You'd be surprised in some countries, but a subsequent trip to a money exchange may be necessary. You would not be the first tourist to be in that situation, to say nothing of the usual trade.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:11, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Is that something that's known ahead of time, or is it a surprise they pull on you as you're waiting for your flight? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:56, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it's mentioned in the fine print on airline tickets. I guess it comes as a surprise to some. A lot of places collect it as part of your air ticket out.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:11, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The whole point of this sort of tax is to extract some hard currency from travelers (hence the decision to demand payment in something other than the - likely worthless - local currency). Like a casino, local authorities make it easy for you to part with your money, either by positioning hard currency ATM's or currency exchange booths in the vicinity of where the tax is collected (although there are countries that are so incompetent at collecting taxes, or airports that are so disorganized, that you can't withdraw the required sum at the airport). The point is not to make you miss your flight, it's to collect cash from a captive audience. Paying in cash makes it a bit easier to fudge about the actual amount that has been collected. Of course, most regular businesses prefer electronic payments, as the risk of fraud is less, and the cost of handling a lot of cash is higher, but the purpose of such taxes has little to do with running an efficient business. Also, a competent travel agent will clearly warn you about such taxes, as will travel guides and any travel advisory site, but you can get a nasty surprise if you bought your ticket directly on the internet and did not check into this. --Xuxl (talk) 10:11, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

It's not just departure taxes, stuff like visas too. Recently did some travelling in East Africa, and all the visas are in US dollars, or maybe if they're being nice GBP. There would not be any point for most lesser developed countries to charge these in their currency, as probably one of the main sources of foreign hard currency is tourism, likely after natural resource trade. And yes, it is indeed possible to get foreign currency at ATMs in many countries, I have done so myself. Fgf10 (talk) 11:00, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I recall in Vancouver not too long ago (2008?) a cash impost as an "airport development fee". You had to put money into a machine or pay at a booth to get a receipt you had to show at departure. These days, I think it's collected by the airline.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:10, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

My experience in Tanzania when I was surprised by (and unprepared for) this tax was that they were willing to take Tanzanian shillings, but at a hugely disadvantageous exchange rate (something like 50% worse than at a bank). The policy will vary by country. The smart thing is to be aware that these taxes exist and to research whether they exist and their terms in a country before traveling there so that you are prepared. Marco polo (talk) 17:36, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if it would be possible to make a case (before a suitable international tribunal) that these types of "taxes" are nothing more than extortion/ransoms - the authorities in those countries are effectively holding foreign visitors hostage. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:17, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

And what would a suitable international tribunal be ? The World Trade Organization? You'd have to prove this consists an unfair restriction on trade, and you'd have to have to standing to complain (in the WTO, I believe only states can launch complaints); the various international human rights courts have more important matters to deal with, and you'd have to prove this constitutes a violation of international human rights instruments anyway, so that avenue's closed as well. By the way, those types of taxes often also apply to locals (there may be ways around paying them for some privileged ones), so the argument of unfairness does not easily apply. --Xuxl (talk) 12:58, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

The first time I visit a foreign country, or go back to one where I'm unclear on the rules, I always check with the clerk at the hotel if there is a departure tax, how much and how to pay it. In some countries you can buy a tax receipt at the hotel, in others it is done at the airport. Oh, and all taxes are "nothing more than extortion/ransoms [sic]." That's why their so popular (with governments).DOR (HK) (talk) 08:22, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

linguaphilia

Is it possible to be sexually attracted to languages? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 23:41, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean like men getting erections at the sound of a certain language? People often fuck up their own language, and have an ever greater propensity to do so with other languages. But I'm sure that's not what you mean. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:07, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

See Rule 34. --Jayron32 00:09, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

"I love it when you speak French!" Looie496 (talk) 00:18, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Do you speak Italian...It's such an ugly language. How about Russian?. μηδείς (talk) 00:35, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

To the OP: Languages are concepts that are only observable through ink letters on a piece paper or vibrations of the air that is coming our of someone's mouth, so unless you are thinking having sex with a book, or with air vibrations, no. But it is possible to be sexually attracted to someone who speaks one (or more) language(s). --Lgriot (talk) 08:40, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I dunno. A good alveolar trill can really help a hummer enunciate. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:34, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

May 30

Joan of Arc

How many times in all was Joan of Arc wounded in battle, and where exactly/with what weapons? The article mentions three times she was wounded -- an arrow to the neck, a glancing blow with a cannonball to the head, and another arrow to the leg, but I'm sure she must have been wounded more times than that, given her aggressive, lead-from-the-front tactics. (In case you want to know why I ask, it's for a novel -- my heroine Blanche will have a lot in common with Joan of Arc, and I want to further the parallel by having her wounded in the exact same places -- but with bullets rather than arrows, because my story takes place in occupied France during World War 2.) Thanks in advance! 24.23.196.85 (talk) 00:37, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm surprised anyone could survive even a glancing blow to the head from a cannon ball, unless it was at extreme range and had basically bounced until it had little velocity. Edison (talk) 04:09, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, in 1430 extreme range was pretty much anything beyond the mouth of the cannon. Plus she would probably have been wearing a steel helmet. Looie496 (talk) 05:29, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I found this, this and this, but no mention of a 4th or 5th wound. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 10:24, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

A translation of the trial records can be found at the Internet Medieval Sourcebook. Everyone seems to mention that she was injured by an arrow or crossbow in the neck (or between the neck and the shoulder, or in the chest), but I haven't found the other injuries yet...apparently she was knocked off a ladder by a stone or a cannonball (or a stone being used as a cannonball), and had a thigh injury, and jumped out of a tower once. I assume all the information about her injuries is in the trial records somewhere. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:36, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone! I must have been under the impression that her wounds to the neck and shoulder were separate wounds, while in fact it was probably one wound that had been reported differently by different sources. 24.23.196.85 (talk) 01:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

fanny pack for men

Is it fashionable for men to wear fanny packs? --Yoglti (talk) 06:14, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

It would be considered very odd in many parts of the UK, but I assume you are asking about the USA (and the US meaning). Dbfirs 06:23, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Twenty years ago among yuppies, metrosexuals, and the eurofabulous. Almost all of these people have been killed in muggings or gotten jobs in Bloomberg. The lucky few are still voluntarily committed. Never wear one! Head the warnings! μηδείς (talk) 06:39, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

For a man in a wheelchair, they are perfect: secure, accessible and the right size for everything important. Just don't call it a "fanny pack" in the U.K. Bielle (talk) 06:42, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Or Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 07:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Or New Zealand, South Africa, India... in fact anywhere outside of North America - "fanny" has an entirely different meaning. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:37, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it became fashionable about the time women wearing ties & pants became ok. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 07:06, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing in our article on fanny packs to suggest that they even existed at the time of the irrelevant stories you've linked to. AlexTiefling (talk) 07:09, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

There's nothing in our article on fanny packs to suggest that they were non-existent then, but did enjoy the irrelevant comments you've winked to. If this was a serious concern, I did run a seconds old google search that returns this from April 1980, apparently already a well known phrase that relevantly furthers my notion of year-to-year causality. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 08:55, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

That's quite incoherent. You may want to try re-phrasing it. But then this is a rather silly thread, so you may not want to waste your time on it. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:52, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Re-phrase what you said? It sounds different when you say it? Besides if what you refer to as silly threads were useless I wouldn't have learned Washingtonians used the phrase "fanny pack" in the 1970s. It's cool thou, I always try to re-read posts to avoid labeling them incoherent. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 10:15, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that they are called 'Bum Bags' in the uk85.211.151.84 (talk) 09:00, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

That's right. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 09:36, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Because of course, fanny means something completely different to us. Alansplodge (talk) 17:40, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

God, yer pervs. μηδείς (talk) 20:39, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

• They're very useful for hiking or trail running, or even bicycling, because they let you carry a modest amount of stuff without making your back sweat. (For these purposes, they are always worn on the rear.) Unfortunately they're absurdly expensive. Looie496 (talk) 20:54, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

• They're not really "fashionable" nowadays (and they don't have to be); But they're very practical for men, especially in hot climate when one doesn't wear a jacket. Some (mostly younger people) might see it as funny but who cares? Consider using a male purse in public in a rural area :)
  Anyway, that's my experience as a longtime "Fanny pack" user (for any occasion).TMCk (talk) 21:52, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Fine to wear, but a little awkward if you're going running. You could wear a long shirt if you're embarrassed to be seen wearing it. I always thought they were called "fanny packs" because they were worn 'round the front .--Auric talk 13:14, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Automatic car

For 25 years I have been driving automatic cars using my right foot on the throttle and left foot for braking. My wife says this is wrong and I should not use my left foot at all, but cannot explain why. Is she right, and if so why please?85.211.151.84 (talk) 07:35, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

This "rule" dates from a time when all cars had a clutch, which had to be operated with the left foot. Since the brake and accelerator rarely need to be used together, it makes sense to use the same foot for both those pedals. That way you could also drive automatic cars using the right foot in the same way without having to adapt. But if you have been driving that way for 25 years and don't drive manual cars, there is no reason to change.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:07, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Seems like this LA Times reporter called the Feds, the state of California, NASCAR, UM and many other "experts" to find an answer to this, very interesting that he discovered the Porsche Cayenne actually cuts engine power automatically if you use both feet. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 09:38, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Your wife is right - it is a really bad idea because in a stressfull situation, such as an impending collision, you could easily press both at the same time as you instinctively tense your whole body to brace for the impact. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:43, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

And unless he's naturally left-footed, he would have finer-grained control of the brake pedal with his right foot. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:17, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Which would probably be mitigated by 25 years' experience doing it, but it's a good point. I've found a couple of articles on the subject The first two say the left foot should not be used to brake in ordinary driving because the left foot serves as a brace as the car decelerates, and because it contributes to brake wear and flickering brake lights which could be confusing to other drivers. The second two articles advocate left-foot braking in performance driving because it allows slightly faster slowing time and allows faster acceleration out of turns &c. The Car Talk guys were split on the issue in 1993. From my point of view, braking with left foot offers not real advantage, because anytime the brake and accelerator pedals are being depressed simultaneously, one is working against the other, even if only a little (you're either slowing down a car that's still trying to move forward under power or you're accelerating against the drag of the brake) so you're adding brake & engine wear and wasting gas. Probably not hugely, but still. And you're either moving your left foot from the floor to the brake, so not gaining a time-to-stop advantage over moving the right foot from the accelerator to the brake, or you're driving around with your left foot hovering over the brake, which seems tiring.

--some jerk on the Internet (talk) 14:36, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

When I took a Driver's Education class in 1971, we sometimes observed cars with their brake lights on while driving normally and not actually slowing or stopped. Our instructor called the operators of the these cars "two-footed drivers" and advised us to always use only the right foot to operate either the brake or the accelerator pedal. The reasoning was that if you use your left foot to brake, you may rest it on the brake pedal and flash your brake lights unintentionally when not actually slowing down, confusing those driving behind you. Thomprod (talk) 15:48, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

On the rare occasions when I drive an automatic, I only use one foot to avoid instinctively using the brake like a clutch and plunging it to the floor when I want to stop. Automatic transmission is still in the minority on this side of the Atlantic. Alansplodge (talk) 17:36, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

(un-indent) There is ONE special situation that calls for the use of both feet: when starting from a dead stop on a steep hill (like in some parts of Frisco), you hold the brake with your left foot while slightly pressing the gas with your right, and then release the brake -- doing this prevents the car from rolling back while the engine accelerates. Other than that, though, you should ONLY use your right foot and press only one pedal at a time, as the others have already pointed out. 24.23.196.85 (talk) 23:12, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

• This is even depicted in a Breaking Bad episode were the protagonist's son, learning to drive, uses both feet and steps on both simultaneously after being told not to use two feet. μηδείς (talk) 00:51, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

car dashboard symbols

Hi!

For my class I am trying to find out information regarding the symbols used on the car dashboard. I am finding many sites that show all the symbols used on a dashboard but I have not found any information on when we started using these symbols and who came up with these symbols? Was it one car company or multiple at the same time? I have found out that it was around the 1960's that they started to appear but I would like more information if it is out there. Could you help me or direct me in my search? Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.117.142.11 (talk) 16:11, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

My first car, a 1969 Hillman Minx, had only two symbols if I recall correctly, a picture of a little trumpet for the horn and a picture of the arc of a windscreen wiper for the wipers. It's difficult to imagine what other symbols could have been used for these features. Alansplodge (talk) 17:31, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

ISO 2575 would seem to be the relevant standard. It was first published in 1973. and is currently in its 8th edition. Rojomoke (talk) 18:05, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

... but you'll need $170 to read it. Richard Avery (talk) 18:42, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

However, you can read the standards set by the Indian Automotive Standards Committee, which claim to comply with ISO 2575 and various EU directives here. Alansplodge (talk) 18:57, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Video cameras forbidden

Quite many entertainment events allow guests to photograph the event but strictly forbid use of video cameras. Why is this? JIP | Talk 20:20, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Because they'd like the option to sell you a copy of the performance if they so choose at a later date. This prohibition usually includes audio recording, video recording, and photography. This is known as Bootleg recording, and while some artists (notably Phish and the Grateful Dead) have allowed it, most entertainment venues do not, because they recognize that you will not likely buy a copy of a performance you already own, but would possibly buy one of a performance you do not. --Jayron32 20:23, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm aware of this protection against bootleg recording. But my question is specifically about events where still photography is allowed but video recording is not. JIP | Talk 20:27, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

For the same reason. The venue and/or artist gets to decide what is and is not allowed, and the artist may wish to reserve the right to publish a video of the event at some point. It doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" proposition, the ticket is a form of "contract" where you, as the purchaser, agree to the terms of the seller, and the seller can set any number of reasonable restrictions on what you can, and cannot do, in their venue. The easiest explanation is that they want to restrict the production of bootleg video recordings. --Jayron32 20:37, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

What exclusives would Joan Rivers have anymore? ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 23:45, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Cameras are often forbidden also. It just depends on how badly the performer wants to protect his copyright. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:16, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Video is more desirable than still images, for things like concerts and sports. You ever really listen to a picture of a harp? Don't bother. So there's more potential money to lose. They figure the good will of letting you keep a souvenir photo (or hundreds) outweighs the risk of them losing a cash opportunity. On that note, who wants 994 free Smashing Pumpkins albums? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:39, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I question the premise of the question. Every ticket I've ever seen for a major entertainment event has prohibited all forms of photography, not just video. --Viennese Waltz 04:24, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I think that's typical. I wonder who the OP has seen that didn't have such a requirement. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:03, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I have a WWE ticket from 2004 somewhere in my clutter, and I seem to recall it specifically only prohibiting video. And I seem to recall Tony Chimel telling the crowd before the show that pictures were OK, but video was not. Of course, I can't seem to recall where that ticket is (I've been looking for hours, off and on), so take my memories with a grain of salt. I'll keep looking. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:46, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

In this video of a 2012 house show, the intercom at :45 is pretty garbled, but it seems to say they don't discourage still photographs, but video is prohibited. Probably a better sounding example out there. This one may be better, depending on your ears, but still pretty bad. Maybe worse. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:56, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Different organizations could have different reasons for allowing (or not) pictures and/or videos. In the cases you cite, they might think photos are harmless and also good publicity. As a practical matter, it's easy to make cellphone videos which might pop up on youtube later. But professional-quality videotaping would not be allowed without permission. I'm also reminded of the standard warning in major league baseball prohibiting re-transcription of the game in any form without permission - which is generally ignored. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:47, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

May 31

Articles For Creation Heather Boswell and Evelyn Taft

Can these articles be created? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tariqmudallal (talk • contribs) 02:39, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Possibly, but here isn't the place to ask. Go to Wikipedia:Requested articles. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 03:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Probably not. Nobody of either name strikes me as satisfying our notability requirements. If you're referring to Evelyn Taft the meteorologist, her article's already been created and deleted. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:11, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality

Is it a diploma mill or not? --Yoglti (talk) 03:24, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Did you read the article you just linked. It discusses the issue directly. --Jayron32 03:34, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Extending my question: Is there any where online I could buy a statue of the Hindu demoness Tataka?

Is there any where online I could buy a statue of the Hindu demoness Tataka? Venustar84 (talk) 04:17, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I fixed your text boxing error, looked on-line, google shopping, ebay even used several of the name derivations and the untranslated term, lots of images but no products. Kudos to any editor that does find this. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 04:51, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

From the picture in our article, she looks like almost any female human in Hindu dress But if you do a google-images search on Tatake, you see pictures of her showing anything from slim, beautiful women to ugly, bloated troll-like females with tusks instead of teeth. Clearly her appearance is not well-described anywhere - so just about any female human in Hindu dress could be said to be representative of her. http://www.exoticindia.com/dolls/barbie_in_india_ca43.jpg maybe? SteveBaker (talk) 14:15, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

How do I tidy up my references at the end of an article?

How do I tidy up my references at the end of an article? Is there a 'reference wizard' I could use? --KuchenZimjah (talk) 10:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

This is more a helpdesk question but since it's here, this Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Citation_processing_tools may assist. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 11:27, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Treasure hunt clues

internet forum-fodder
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I need some help deciphering any possible meanings for any of the following clues for a treasure hunt in Salina, Kansas. Over the hump Bump E to H Saucy, lofty learning Connects Charles and Sherman 1/20# + 2L Be wearing an orange cap Happily abridged border The only main rules to the location are that it will be located somewhere easily accessible and on public property. Thanks in advance, Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 10:42, 31 May 2013 (UTC) New clues: Heb's partner state HER TRUER COFFEE TILTS Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 12:54, 31 May 2013 (UTC) Charles Street and Sherman Street seem to be connected by S Eleventh Street. Does that help?--Shantavira|feed me 12:00, 31 May 2013 (UTC) Not quite, already thought of that and the other clues don't seem to fit. I can think of the local indicators, I just need any wider meanings I might be missing or wider connections. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 12:54, 31 May 2013 (UTC) You have not mentioned anywhere what our share of the booty will be!--Aspro (talk) 13:11, 31 May 2013 (UTC) Pay to play I say ;-) Market St.⧏ ⧐ Diamond Way 13:22, 31 May 2013 (UTC) XD Something tells me you wouldn't be interested in a $2000 Smoky Hill River Festival gift card, which is the main prize. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 13:47, 31 May 2013 (UTC) You still haven't said how you will share out the booty with any WP editors that lead you to the prize. Does that mean you want to keep it all to yourself?--Aspro (talk) 20:31, 31 May 2013 (UTC) Some ideas. No clue if these threads will help you. Wednesday is "Hump day". Does Wednesday help any with Clue 1? Hunters wear orange caps for visibility. Does that help? --Jayron32 20:39, 31 May 2013 (UTC) Suggest this be collapsed, it's a one time local mater with no references for us to offer or encyclopedic value to the project. This is textbook internet forum-fodder. μηδείς (talk) 00:48, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

matriz predial during the portugese rule in estate india i.e Goa

during the portugese rule in goa prior to 1960 there was system of collecting revenue for goverment, it was called matriz predial,there used to be person who was called as topografer my question is what was the procedure that was followed by him to give number to any property ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.217.64.8 (talk) 14:52, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

This site has some information on the matriz predial ("fiscal tax") in Portugal itself. It appears to be a kind of rateable value, assigning a value to a property for taxation purposes based on a combination of the estimated sale value of the property, its location, and the quality of local services. It does not discuss how the tax operated in former Portuguese colonies, but it is possible that the assessor took into account similar criteria when valuing a property there. - Karenjc 16:08, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

June 1

FOUNDATIONS FOR GRANTS ON PRODUCING A DRAMA ABOUT THE SE MUSKOGEE SPEAKING INDIANS

I NEED LISTINGS OF FOUNDATIONS FOR GRANTS ON PRODUCIN A DRAMA ABOUT THE SE MUSKOGEE SPEAKING INDIANS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1005:B12F:A1B1:2121:6C5E:B7D1:E49D (talk) 20:02, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

The most prestigious such organization in the U.S. would be the National Endowment for the Arts, but Category:Arts councils of the United States would give you a good start on similar organizations as well. Also, please don't shout. We can read just fine in lower case letters. --Jayron32 22:53, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

June 2

Dogo Argentino Breeder

I'm looking to get a Dogo Argentino puppy and I would like to get one from Argentina from Ulises Nores the grandson of the original breeder. I have come across two websites: http://www.noresdogoargentino.com.ar and http://www.dogoargentinonores.com Can anyone tell me if either of these are legit or how I can go about confirming that they are. --195.244.210.38 (talk) 10:15, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

A good first step would be to type the name of the breeder and his company into Google and look for links (possibly on the second or third page of the search results) that don't come from either of those websites. These ought to get you some information written by other people about this breeder. If it's a complete scam, you should be able to find that out.

That said - are you aware that this dog is banned in the UK, some cities and states in the US, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Singapore, Ukraine and Israel? Seems like it's a bad idea to own one.

SteveBaker (talk) 15:03, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

The IP traces to Gibraltar. Section 583 of Act 2011-23 prohibits the importation or keeping of a "dangerous dog" (p424 of the PDF), and lists Dogo Argentino as such a dog (schedule 10 part A; p474 of the PDF). So unless the Minister has amended schedule A subsequently (as they're allowed to do under section 583(3)), which wasn't the case at least as soon as 2012, this breed is illegal in Gibraltar. 87.115.106.1 (talk) 17:51, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

• Let me just add a link to our Dogo Argentino article. Looie496 (talk) 22:36, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Changing fate

Fate is defined as a predetermined future. As such, is it really possible to "change my fate"? After all, wouldn't "changing fate" be part of fate itself since it has already been planned out? ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 12:04, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Yep. It's nonsense to think that one can change one's fate, should such a thing exist. That's the simple logical answer. I can almost guarantee though that someone will present some amazing intellectual gymnastics in an attempt to prove you and me wrong. (You would see even better versions over at Conservapedia.) HiLo48 (talk) 12:28, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but it isn't simple either. Although ones' actions and circumstances matter such as with the butterfly effect, we know too that many events such as the sun rising each day are completely predictable, thus causality itself is complex. See causality for an over-view of the subject. --Modocc (talk) 13:54, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

There are two separate questions here:

• Is your future pre-determined? (ie Does "fate" exist?)
• If there is fate, can you ever know your future state? (ie Can you know your own fate?)

The first question is tricky. It hinges entirely on whether the universe is in any way truly "random". Some great thinkers believed that it cannot be. Einstein, for example, famously said "As I have said so many times, God doesn't play dice with the world." and fought hard to maintain the position that we live in a "clockwork universe" where everything is predetermined. However, Quantum theory really makes that a tough position to maintain - and I think that most modern scientists believe that there is true randomness in the universe - which means that future events are not predetermined and therefore fate doesn't exist.

The answer to the second question is a categorical "NO!". When we look out into space, we see the star Proxima Centaurii as it looked 4.2 years ago. We have no reasonable way to know what it's like today. Hence, a photon released from Proxima Centaurii today could arrive on earth 4.2 years from now, add a tiny amount of heat to an atom in the atmosphere, which over the course of a year might alter the weather (via the well-known "butterfly effect" of chaos theory) to cause you to be struck by lightning and killed outright. If there is no photon then you live - if there is that photon with that exact position and energy, you die. Your fate (five years from now) cannot even in principle be known without perfect knowledge about every fundamental particle in that distant star 4.2 years from now. It's true that in a truly deterministic universe, we might be able to observe the state of Proxima Centaurii as it was 4.2 years ago - and from that deduce whether a photon is currently being emitted there or not. But things like the uncertainty principle ensure that we cannot know all of that information about the star.

So, on balance, you provide us with an axiom: "Fate is defined as a predetermined future" - but we know that this axiom is false - and it's a well-established principle of logic that from falsehood, you can prove anything. So the question of whether fate can be changed is akin to asking whether unicorns like sausages.

SteveBaker (talk) 14:52, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I once had a llama, who once bit at my hotdog and knocked it down. It ate the bun (and relish), but left the sausage. Its fate would be much the same with a unicorn, I'll bet. Speaking of betting, even if God rolled dice, there is an exact (though extremely difficult) way to roll any number on any surface, if you know all the variables. If God is all-knowing and wants his will done, even his dice would leave nothing to chance. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:14, June 2, 2013 (UTC)

Our models of reality are distinctly different from reality, but I am confident that I'll be dead in the near future, and logic has nothing to do with that fate. The OP's reasoning included the notion of fate being planned (that is just one model) but in general causality is complex and depends on what kinds of events one is considering. --Modocc (talk) 15:11, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Our models of reality (collectively) don't even begin to enter into it, since our models of reality (individually) are also not reality. What we perceive is reality filtered through our own brain, and there's not even any way to establish with perfect precision using only our own faculties and sound logic, that anything outside of our own mind actually exists (see solipsism). There's no way to prove to ourselves with any certainty that the model of reality our mind has created has any connection to actual reality. Or simply put, there's no perfect proof that everything I experience is not a hallucination. At some point, we need to take the connections between reality and our perception thereof on blind faith. --Jayron32 17:21, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

perfect proofs don't exist; tangent
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Aye!! You are correct! But solipsism leads to being a fallibilist, but I'm a scientific realist and not a solipsist since I recognize that events are scientifically predictable and its the predictability of reality that gives us our science regarding nature and progress which I prefer not being trampled on by our own backward skepticisms regarding causality. --Modocc (talk) 17:36, 2 June 2013 (UTC) I'm not saying that one should believe in solipsism, merely that the core of scientific proof is the ability to apply logic to data to arrive at conclusions; but there is no such conclusion that will allow us to prove, in that manner, that our own experiences are real. We need to take it on faith. Once we are prepared to take that on faith, we can then move past that moment and then work to explain the reality we experience in terms of data, logic, and further conclusions. The problem comes when we expect perfect provability out of reality; that is if we expect that we can work backwards using nothing but data and logic and then come to a sound conclusion about our own existence to ourselves. We can't. It's the philosophical equivalent of Gödel's second theorem in the sense that we cannot establish the truth of our own experience using only our own experience. --Jayron32 17:42, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Since illusions are simply mental abstractions that are real in their own way, like the artwork we design... I'm going around in circles 'cause my reality is still present (maybe I need another chromosomal tilt switch, ;-)). --Modocc (talk) 18:08, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Illusions are an internal reality, created by your own brain. The fundamental question, the hard problem here, is how to connect your internal reality (the collection of nerve impulses that give you sensations and perceptions) to the external reality (stuff that exists whether or not your brain does that) in a way that is perfectly consistent with sound scientific proof, that is that connects data to a conclusion via logic. --Jayron32 18:14, 2 June 2013 (UTC) We don't need a brain to determine how plants interact with their external environment, nor do we need a sophisticated brain to determine how insects do too. Recently I read how our brains create phantom guesses as to what is happening when incomplete inputs (such as a severed hand) occur. Essentially, we are pretty good at guesswork, connecting the internal with the external, but only when we have sufficient data. I'm not sure how or why "proof" always needs to enter into our evaluations or beliefs. Modocc (talk) 18:24, 2 June 2013 (UTC) How would you have this conversation with me if it were not for your brain? I am confused by your assertion that the brain is not involved in constructing internal models of the world. How are each of our internal models of the world constructed if not by our brain? Is it our liver? Our left pinky finger. Enlighten me on the unimportance of the brain in thought processes. This should be interesting. Oh, and don't use your brain to do so... --Jayron32 18:27, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Sorry I didn't write that well. We have our brains, I meant the plant doesn't need a brain for us to objectively analysis it. I was simply pointing out that it matters who's brain we are talking about, my mother's or mine? Or those of some mice or whales? I suppose the short of what I'm saying is that I don't see how or why truths regarding self-awareness are impossible to know (I could make implausible assumptions regarding reality but that's still doesn't leave me empty-handed, for I've still existed (the last time I checked my memories' memes) --Modocc (talk) 18:35, 2 June 2013 (UTC) Prove that the model of the plant you make in your own brain is a reliable construction of what the plant really is if your brain wasn't there to study it, in such a way that does not, at some point, require you to say "We need to just accept this as true, without proof or connection to data and logic". --Jayron32 18:50, 2 June 2013 (UTC) I can't because I ate it. Its being digested into its constituent parts and no longer exists as a whole plant. But I'm pretty sure it did exist and there are more at my local stores. -Modocc (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2013 (UTC) No, you think you ate it. Maybe you didn't, and it was all an illusion. Establishing the difference is the tricky part. --Jayron32 19:01, 2 June 2013 (UTC) It does not matter whether we are ultimately wrong or right with regard to our beliefs (we can be happy with them anyway( it was great plant BTW)), and like I said I could make implausible assumptions, but I don't think that logic, philosophy or science requires us to merely assume or claim a philosophized "faith" regarding the realities of our little planet. With regard to perfect proofs, well everything isn't just dandy I suppose, and we can hat this tangential debate too. :-) -Modocc (talk) 19:19, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

[The name of Proxima Centauri ends with only one "i".—Wavelength (talk) 15:38, 2 June 2013 (UTC)]

• Fate as a metaphysical fact in a deterministic sense is impossible to prove, since we cannot run time over and see if it happens identically.
• Fate in the sense of what will factually happen to you is a tautology. What will happen to you will happen to you by definition. To say it is fated adds no information.
• Belief that events of a broad scope will happen is reasonable, but not very helpful. Yes, you will die some day.
• Belief in specific fates--I will be killed by a spider I didn't see next year--is pathological. μηδείς (talk) 19:54, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Your last point is not universal Some predictions are pathological certainly, but sometimes we have reasonable grounds for predicting specific fates. --Modocc (talk) 20:28, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Like if someone spends all their time working with venomous spiders, they might reasonably surmise that a spider would kill them someday. And then God might surprise him with a falling tree. Kind of like with Steve Irwin. He might have supposed a croc might kill him someday. Falling to a stingray probably was not on his radar. Johnny Carson, though, once said to Ed McMahon about his chain-smoking, "These things are killing me." Which they eventually did. But that could only be considered "fate" if it's presumed it was impossible for him to stop smoking. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:32, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Seriously? Am I supposed to believe you two were unable to understand my point? μηδείς (talk) 00:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Try doing some science, or even engineering without making any accurate predictions. -Modocc (talk) 00:22, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

The English word "fate" has various meanings. The concept of fate can be traced to ancient Greek religion and the Fates. A similar concept is predestination.

A physician might counsel a patient to make lifestyle changes in order to avoid a particular fate. An automobile driver might swerve to avoid a particular fate. Changes can be for the better or for the worse.

See Ezekiel 33:1–20 and Romans 11:17–24.

—Wavelength (talk) 22:44, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

You are speaking metaphorically. You are quite aware doctors warn about certain diseases and people swerve to avoid collisions. This sort of stuff is the ref dek at its worst, folks. μηδείς (talk) 00:07, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Robert E Vardman Cenotaph Road

Dear Wikipedia,

I was sending this to comment on a bad link. In your entry for Robert E Vardman, the author, you mention that he is the author of the Cenotaph Road series and you have a link to Cenotaph Road. However, the link goes to the place "Cenotaph Road" and not the book. His book is a fantasy novel and has nothing to do with that place.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Audiophile66 (talk • contribs) 17:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I fixed the link. It is now a red link as no article yet exists about this work, but it at least doesn't link to an unrelated topic. --Jayron32 18:11, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

You beat me to it by a couple of seconds! To Audiophile66, usually the best place for these comments is on the Talk Page of the article - in this case Talk:Robert_E._Vardeman; however there seems to be very little activity on that article, so you have done the right thing. Alansplodge (talk) 18:18, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Recycling

Hi there. Reading article about recycling. Can not find any reference to colour coding of waste materials in general. Here in Australia, kerbside pick up of recyclables are denoted by green for landfill, blue for assorted clean household recyclables & red denoting garden waste. Have been reading the article above & cannot find information regarding the existence of ISO Standards in relation to colour coding of receptacles, (if any). Can you assist in advising of any such standard, & which reference article to research. Thank you AeragRRR — Preceding unsigned comment added by AeragRRR (talk • contribs) 23:56, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd suggest that such colour coding is not even standard in Australia. I live on the outskirts of Melbourne, and have never heard of it. Where are you AeragRRR? HiLo48 (talk) 00:34, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

June 3

Metal Repair

I have some metal tool, which I accidentally dropped on the floor. Now it has some very rough edge, where it looks like the polish went off and the grainy metal interior is visible. Is there a way to fix this and make it polished/shiny again? Should I use sandpaper? --helohe (talk) 00:02, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

No, that will just scratch it. But it's hard to give any sort of answer when your description is so indefinite. Do you mean it has a blade that got dented, or what? What sort of tool is it, and what part hit the floor? Looie496 (talk) 00:08, 3 June 2013 (UTC)