User talk:Berean Hunter/Archive 1

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Welcome to my talk page..just leave a note & I'll try to respond as soon as I can.

⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 18:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Carter County, Tennessee

Hm, interesting points. I'm not really an expert on the issue, but maybe it means the first settlement outside what is today the borders of the 13 colonies? But even that seems crazy, I'm sure somebody settled in West Virginia or something before that. Maybe ask at the Tennessee and North Carolina wikiprojects? --AW (talk) 04:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Information.svg Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did to Garden. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Malinaccier (talk) 23:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

You have misunderstood my edits..please see your talk page...Berean Hunter (talk) 23:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep, sorry and don't worry. I thought you were adding that little poem! I was simply trying to remove it myself. Ha, well it's all over and done. Thanks for being understanding! Malinaccier (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The smile is nice ;D, and you're doing fine right now—keep it up! Malinaccier (talk) 00:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

db-ad criteria

Please be more sparing in your application of speedy tags for advertising. The article about last September's NYFW is actually about one of the most important events in fashion (no less, than say the 2008 golden globes is in film), which you could have found if you clicked through to the general article about New York Fashion Week. The article contained no advertising language and was simply a list of designers. The db-ad tag is supposed to be used where there's no question that something is an ad, and it should be sparingly applied especially because we don't want to bite the newbies. Thanks, Calliopejen1 (talk) 16:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

replied on my talk page. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Srebrenica Genocide Denial article

I'm just working on it.I agreed with user Bosniak to do the artice,because there are some journalists that continue to deny the Genocide. This artice is ment to let people know that those kind of sick people exist.And that the have some marginal support. In the article i want to point out that there is apsolutly no doubt that it didn't happen.

I'm sourcing it as we speak. I just need a little time because i'm doing my first article ok???--(GriffinSB) (talk) 03:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Articles should be about the facts of the events and then you let those speak for themselves. You are trying to attack the people listed in the bottom. That isn't a neutral point of view. Berean Hunter (talk) 03:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

No,i didn't try to attack them.On the articles about those people that denial is mentioned as well. Now the article is gone and so are 2 and a half hours of work:((( I was going to post 20+ sources

we'll than i'll stop creating articles at all and just give it to someone else....--(GriffinSB) (talk) 03:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC) There wereeven a few law suits against some people for libel.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 03:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Your page shouldn't be all means, bring the sources forward..but the pages for the individuals do not appear to backup your assertions.Berean Hunter (talk) 03:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

yeah,i've noticed that it was still there.thx.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 04:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


Dear Sir,

I m really surprised by the deletion process you started, The rule is that companies appears in companies categories the page i created is informative and describe the activity of a Brand, you can find exactly the same kind of companies listed in wikipedia such as L'occitane, Darty, Celio.... (all having their HQ in France)

If you think I should make some changes on the page, I will be glad to do it

This page is for sure not a Major important page for wikipedia, but I m sure you know that there is lot of non major articles in an encyclopedia, and even more in wikipedia

This Page , in its french version, has been granted in the french version of wikipedia,

Sincerely yours

Tayone (talk) 10:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Tayone

Hello Tayone,

The article is clearly an ad and includes text as such. It is unfortunate that it was included in the French version because that means the editors missed it. It contains the following text...

"Madura products will let you create the interior of which you’ve always dreamed . You will be able to transform your living environment whenever you want, however you want. Chic, harmonious,original, but most importantly, practical, Madura products will enable you to discover a whole new concept of home decoration."
No amount of cleanup for an article will justify self-promotion...wikipedia isn't the place for this...Berean Hunter (talk) 10:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Berean,

Yes, you re right, actually, i should have make the text myself , as more informative, instead of using an existing text, mea culpa, I will submit you a revised version, also, could you explain me the presence of the quoted brands then?

I m just a fan of this brand which I ve been buying from since 13 years and I dont see why it should be less represented than others....

Sincerely yours Jill

Tayone (talk) 10:30, 31 January 2008 (UTC)Tayone

Hi Jill,

Actually, if you visit Celio and check the page history from the beginning, you will see that it was tagged for speedy deletion and went through this process.It may be enlightening to you to go back through and study the edits and how the article transformed. The article is very poorly written, however it isn't an ad, so at least it gets to stay on Wikipedia for the time being. If I, or any other Wikipedia editor, find advertising then we tag it, new or not. Wikipedia tries to be fair.

The other two articles have edits from the beginning that are also worth ad texts.

You could try improving the Celio article..English usage & grammar could definitely be improved there. Cheers Berean Hunter (talk) 16:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


I took a look at the new article. There's at least an assertion of notability, so I don't think it's eligible for speedy deletion right now. However, I also don't think it's notable, so I've proposed deletion of the article. Thanks for letting me know it was recreated. —C.Fred (talk) 17:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC) (talk) 07:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)I created the article bit informative and added few online reference.

You removed the template..Please do not remove the template for Deletion again! Only administrators are supposed to do that. If you remove it, any edits that you do afterwards will be undone. If you want your edits to stick while the article is being considered, leave the AfD alone. Thank you, Berean Hunter (talk) 07:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Mariana Sansón Argüello

I was just able to glean enough from some of the Spanish-language links to at least agree the salient point, that she's a poet. At this point, I think the article needs expansion, but it is a viable stub at this point. —C.Fred (talk) 13:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Walter Dew

Hi. I'm adding...I've given up trying to repair, it just gets reverted again! Haven't used Twinkle before...will have a look at it. Jack1956 (talk) 23:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

February 2008

Nuvola apps important.svg Please stop. Wikipedia is not censored. Any further changes which have the effect of censoring an article, such as you did to Peter Sutcliffe, will be regarded as vandalism. If you continue in this manner, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Hennessey, Patrick (talk) 01:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Stop hand nuvola.svg This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits.
The next time you vandalize Wikipedia, as you did to Peter Sutcliffe, you will be blocked from editing. Hennessey, Patrick (talk) 01:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstood my edits...please see your talk page as well as the one for the article. Please check my contribs and the history of that article and you will see that I revert vandalism not make it.
The original source that I have been trying to add has the ***'s intact! According to WP:Profanity, you do use those. This isn't censorship.
I'm trying to just add the citation and people won't leave it alone long enough for me to do it...go read the talk page..and I the only one that follows correct procedure?
Article is here [ Sutcliffe stabbed]
Now the link needs to be cleaned up but I won't touch least not now...Berean Hunter (talk) 01:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Your editing

Please keep in mind the three revert rule when editing, specifically editing at Peter Sutcliffe. You made the following reverts to that page within a 24-hour period: 1, 2, 3, 4. Please stop edit warring, or you could be blocked. Instead of constant reverting, please try and discuss changes with users on their talk page, or the articles' talk page. Thanks. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, revert 1 put the article where it was supposed to be per the guidelines. I wrote why on the talk page before I ever reverted it. Next, I went out looking for a source so that the issue could be addressed..found a few..all had ***'s and none actually used uncensored language (but that might exist). I tried to decide which source was best and then returned to the article.
I found that I had been reverted by someone who didn't read the talk page..I reverted so that the stars would be there as I add the citation...people began tramping on me and making accusations of vandalism. I'm not. I now invite you to review my edits for Wikipedia. No one seems to be getting it. I am new but thought that I was making positive contributions. Now I've got a talk page that reads like I'm a vandal...maybe this isn't for me.Berean Hunter (talk) 02:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I assure you, I reviewed your edits before leaving the above message. I don't believe your most recent edits are vandalism, however, it is a content dispute, and edit warring does not solve anything. Please, discuss the changes on the articles talk page, and with the users. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Number 3 in your cited list was an attempt to put a proper citation in place...I waited, thinking some Admin would be smart enough to figure it out, but they haven't yet. I wrote to the talk page with my reasons and actually did that BEFORE I did the first edit...I also posted there afterwards. Nobody else has...I was the only one actually doing what they were supposed to.

I cited WP:RSUE for the first revert. The Admin cited back my own reason (makes him look like he doesn't get it). The operative word being TRUMPS our style guidelines (THAT MEANS YOU DO ADD THE STARS!!!). No Admin bothered to see that I was putting the article to the same place it was before that day...yep, it always had the stars until Blammermouth decided (without a source) to change it and announce that "We don't censor Wikipedia". Well, no one was..I followed up after the revert to find a citation. They exist, none of those people who were willing to shout "Vandal" on that day have followed Admin just tried to look at it?

I'm no article crusader and couldn't give a damn about the article..I just thought I was doing the right thing. Did I mention that I'm not a fucking prude either! No censor here...but also no longer a Wikipedian either. I foolishly believed in buy-in & collegiality and more foolishly believed I was doing some form of volunteerism towards a good cause. I thought that vandal tags were hung on obvious vandals. I'm not one and have explained myself but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears...well, if I were volunteering at a local charity and they accuse me of being a vandal, and then I explain myself but they still don't see, there is nothing to do but leave...

The spirit of editing was sort of sapped out of me. With a clobbered reputation, there is nothing to do. I won't spend my energies defending myself in the future because these tags were hung would lead to extra accusations on me..No thanks. My edit history doesn't bear up to being a vandal..and now I'm too afraid to touch any article.

As I get older I notice how much harder everything gets...I have to put a lot more effort into things to get the same results..actually lesser results. I felt terrible when the vandal badge was hung on me..ruined an otherwise good day. It has bothered me ever since. Something I'm doing to try to contribute shouldn't make me feel that badly...

I appreciate the opportunity to have edited and I'm sure I'll continue to enjoy reading Wikipedia articles in the future.

Thank you Berean Hunter (talk) 11:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Please reconsider. You are a valued contributor, and I for one have appreciated your contributions. Jack1956 (talk) 19:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
  • You are more than welcome. Jack1956 (talk) 21:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Walter Dew

Hi again. 'Wee Hoose' is the Scottish and rather twee version of 'Wee House', as in 'there's a moose loose aboot this hoose' for 'mouse loose about this house'! Jack1956 (talk) 19:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Re:Battle of Braddock Down

What I would do is replace this section with {{main|Battle of Bradock Down}}, and redirect this to the separate article about the battle. Hope this helps! Malinaccier (talk) 00:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the direction. Does it not matter that the article would be mis-named and an incorrectly spelled name left in the Braddock, Cornwall article? I have done the first part but didn't replace the content or make the redirect based on my uncertainty. You've been very helpful. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:14, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
User Keith D took care of page deletion/moves and straightened it out.
Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Jack the Ripper

What on earth do you think you were doing with this edit? "Remove mass edits where good faith edits were removed by DreamGuy" is just ridiculous as an edit comment to justify an edit that was nothing but a blind revert of several unrelated changes... I fixed capitalization errors, removed nonnotable trivia from the culture section, and a made whole slew of completely unobjectionable good faith edits that you completely removed for no reason other than you called otehr people's edits good faith... well, of course they could have been made with good faith, but unless you assume mine weren't then your edit comment makes no sense.

Please make sure to edit in good faith yourself. Completely undoing a bunch of changes with no apparent justification wouldn't seem to apply. DreamGuy (talk) 18:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

And please do not put false vandalism warnings on my talk page. Those kinds of actions demonstrate clear bad faith. Do not post to my talk page at all unless you do so with constructive comments to try to follow Wikipedia policies of working together and not just to make false threats. DreamGuy (talk) 18:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

There were good faith edits made over the last few days..I fixed the wikilinks on one of them after verifying..they are notable..meaning that there are objections to SOME of your edits. Try doing them in a more granular fashion using edit summaries and then some may stick but doing a whole batch in order to disguise the same old things that you edit-war over won't work. I'm willing to roll with any consensus that may be met on the article's talk page. Good luck with your editing...⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 18:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

No stop hand.png
Please don't accuse editors of vandalism unless you're sure they have committed it. In particular, avoid using the word in edit summaries (such as "reverting vandalism"), and be very careful about posting vandalism warning templates on user's talkpages. Review the vandalism policy thoroughly before you do that, and see especially the section "What vandalism is not". Note that content disputes are not vandalism, and that good-faith edits of any kind, even if you think them misguided, are not to be considered vandalism. Vandalism accusations without any basis in policy are bad for the climate on the wiki and make constructive discussion more difficult. See also Wikipedia:Avoid the word "vandal".

Good luck with your editing, too. Bishonen | talk 23:28, 17 May 2008 (UTC).

Thank you Bishonen for the is duly noted. After reviewing Dreamguy's contribs and the fact that he repeatedly pulls down whole articles 3 times in a day such as The Whitechapel Murders (1888-91) and enters as a bull in a china shop ripping out good faith edits constitutes him as a vandal. I've read enough to form my judgment of him. I don't throw templates & warnings around lightly. No disrespect intended Bishonen, I appreciate your input and will bear it in mind. Thank you, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Please act more responsibly

Per the note at the top of my talk page and your recent edits in which you falsely labeled my actions as vandalism (please go read WP:V to see the real policy), be aware that your actions constitute harassment. Do not post to my talk page again until such time as you are willing to act in good faith. DreamGuy (talk) 16:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the Britspeak in the Whitechapel article, no apology is necessary. I think it should probably be in britspeak as well. Forgive me for asking, but aren't the JTR murders a subset of the Whitechapel murders? Folk keep suggesting the opposite. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes, JTR is a subset of the Whitechapel Murders. The canonical five are the most studied but others are covered to different belief levels as possible victims. There are enough similarities in the modus operandi to at least establish coverage even if for the purposes of elimination. I believe an investigator would think this prudent & thorough so it would probably be a good idea for the article to be in that spirit ...and leaving it as an exercise to the reader to assign beliefs. JTR & The Whitechapel Murders should coexist as companion articles as well as many other related existing articles. They form a valuable set for Wikipedians, Ripperologists, researchers, and the uninitiated reader alike. My 2 cents for what it is worth..⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 22:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


Brevetted was something that I thought I was correcting from just a common misspelling. That like the possessive form. Does this mean that you would prefer that I not change the word? I don't feel strongly about it either gave me a great excuse to read articles and check for other edits that I might could see. I ceased changing the possessive forms but that creates a small quandary for me..I'm running into articles like Franklin Gardner where both forms are present (in back to back paragraphs about May '63) and it is inconsistent. I'm uncertain what to do with this and will likely skip that kind of edit.

Skipping sounds good. My style prefs apply only to articles I wrote or have edited. That's probably only about 500-600 of the 2,000+ ACW articles out there.

On another subject, could you look at Benjamin Piatt Runkle and my edits and my comment on the talk page? I don't want to demote this man unduly. All 49 occurrences of Runkle in the OR lists no rank greater than fact, reading those letters leads me to wonder whether he is notable. I don't know what Eicher may have on him. His military career looks less than stellar..the only positive light that I saw for him was that Burnside includes him in a general list of subordinates that he is commending in the Tullahoma campaign. A couple of significant dings go against him from one of his commanders as well as one subordinate (worth reading if you take pleasure in reading the OR). If you have the time, I'd appreciate your review of this. Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The Eicher entry is accessible through Google Books if you don't have the hardcopy. The guy was colonel of the 4th Ohio and had some brief brigade commands. All of his brevets came in November 1865, so he was not strictly a general in the war, but was given the appointments as awards afterwards. Your edit should be that he was a colonel in the Union Army (the volunteer service). His highest US Army (regular army) rank was major, although he got a brevet USA colonel in 1867. Not a super notable guy. Ezra Warner doesn't have him in Generals in Blue.

Btw, your "add a message" link above doesn't work for those of us using the secure opens a new browser window on the regular server and we're not logged in. A wikilink may work though... ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I am unfamiliar with this. What is the secure server? (I'm a computer guy, so don't need a lengthy explanation.) Hal Jespersen (talk) 23:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Logout and then look at the login screen..the choices below offer logging in via secure server. Use your same login & pass..then try your message link.
{{Querylink|{{User talk:Hlj}}|qs=action=edit|Leave a message}}
I'm trying to figure it out but have something malformed in the above..doesn't like the User talk section (space bad)..however this form of link is more universal and the correct links for whatever your connection is will be parsed. Still monkeying with it to try to get it to work..also missing the section=new token until the first is figured out. If you find out before I back.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Bingo! Got it worked out ..use this and ignore the above;
[{{SERVER}}{{SCRIPTPATH}}/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Hlj&action=edit&section=new Send me a message]
Send me a message
Try switching between secure & non-secure logins and come back here and you will see it mirrors to you correctly the parsed link (i.e. if you are on the secure server, you will see https and only http if you are not). My gift to you for causing you the grief..8^D ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for looking at Runkle for me ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

That worked, thanks. I didn't know there was an HTTPS version of Wikipedia. I haven't looked in detail at the login screen in years. Hal Jespersen (talk) 14:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome. I may use it one day on my own User & User Talk pages...and share it with others. Cheers,
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 11:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)



I am writing to request which part of the edit of Pendragons you have a problem with? btw, the name is THE Pendragons, not Pendragons... AS one of The Pendragons, and as such I know more about me and my partner than anyone. I can and have provided many new references and have corrected old ones. I am sorry that as one of the persons this subject is about, if I change or add text to my history, this may seem like a conflict of interest. Let me say I have "ibterest" and well I should. BUT I do NOT and have not written anything that is not true. btw...who is the poster that added the bit about the accident? Where is this person's referenced source? You really should concern yourself with this post as it is inaccurate.

I look forward to your return communication.

Best, Charlotte Pendragon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charlotte Pendragon (talkcontribs) 07:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello Mrs. Pendragon,
Thank you for responding. I presume that you read this before posting. Yes, there could be problems with your editing...
First, this one where your edit summary was about adding links but the edit contains " one of the most creative magicians in recent history." You shouldn't be writing that whether it is true or not because it can be construed as self-aggrandizing.
then the next one which also has an edit summary about adding links but contains "...making them one of the most sought out performances today." Promotional jargon. Nothing about performing at those places qualifies that statement.
and this in your business is called upstaging. In Wikipedia it is called POV bias. Somehow, Mr. Copperfield's notability seems to have diminished below your husband's when you make that edit.
and this too can be considered POV bias as well as being unsourced.
All sources must be verifiable secondary sources. It is often hard for people to understand in your position that you don't count as a source...not directly. No original research is allowed.
As to the title being only 'Pendragons', the original author of the article made that decision. A redirect from 'The Pendragons' exists that takes you to the original article. There exists a method to change that but it involves garnering concensus on the article's talk page. We can revisit that later if you like.
About the accident, first, I hope that he did recover if there was an accident because it sounds really terrible. I am an archer that uses a compound bow with broadheads and really know just how dangerous that is (was there a broadhead involved?). Within the context of the article, I have reinstated a citation request that was placed there last August. I tried today but was unable to find a reference from a reliable source. I found many from blogs and sites that fall short of that parameter. The one that I thought I might use was from Magic Magazine but they have apparently removed the reference. Other sites are referencing Wikipedia for that "fact", making them no good. It sounds like you have contention with the accident bit...could you explain, please?
Since you created the article on your husband, it is recognized that you have more to gain than the average Wikipedian regarding promotion. When you begin to link him into other articles it is questionably spamming. I don't doubt at all that both of you are a class act (although I'm unfamiliar) and that you are probably thoroughly also have one of the nicest websites I've seen...but this isn't how Wikipedia articles should come into being. You can still edit Wikipedia articles but it isn't a good idea for you or anyone close to you to edit articles about you. Btw, edits that you do under an anonymous IP will still be obvious...average editors don't edit in the way that someone involved does. Regular editors don't usually fluff awards & honors and certainly not as the first thing about a person...frankly that makes for a poor article. The stuff that will make for a good article will probably include things that you think other people will find boring because it might be run-of-the-mill to you.
To sign your posts, place four tildes ~~~~ after your comments (Shift plus the key beside the "1" key). You should be able to select 'Preview' to see the effect before committing to it by saving the page. Thank you, Ma'am.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 20:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I thought it was a fair point about the name - it is usual for their name to begin with the definite article. I had previously created a page named "The Pendragons" with a redirect to "Pendragons" as a partial fix. However it is better for the article to be on a correctly named page so I have swapped the two pages. The article text is now at "The Pendragons" and "Pendragons" has been turned into a redirect. I have transcluded the old talk page to Talk:The_Pendragons to preserve the history of comments.
This article obviously needs some neutral attention for a while. Blatantly biased edits such as 'cut-n-pastes' from the subject's PR material need to be dealt with. However we also need to be sensitive to any legitimate complaints the subjects might have about the accuracy of the text. Circusandmagicfan (talk) 08:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan
Thank you for making the page changes..that was very gracious of you. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. I was rather hoping that the regular editors of the magic articles, would "adopt" the Jonathan Pendragon page that she created Saturday night to remove the bias & PR material. I'm glad you found this discussion and I would invite commentary from other editors. You see my COI issue that I'm raising? I have chosen not to raise the issue at the COI noticeboard for the time being in the hopes that we could work it out. I'm also reluctant to do that because of the potential PR aspects for them. It would be advisable for her to edit under a handle and maintain anonymity..but still not edit articles close to her. Cheers, Circusandmagicfan. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 11:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Glad you feel my edits were appropriate. I have gone back to the article and given it a thorough work over to try to make it more NPOV - and also to try to straighten out the awful mess that had been made of grammar, sentence structure and formatting of citations. I think the result is reasonable for the time being and I hope the Pendragons will accept it as a compromise.
As for the Jonathan Pendragon article, I've only just seen it. My first reaction is that I'm surprised you didn't nominate it for speedy deletion given that it's a cut-n-paste of PR stuff and it's a bit superflouous because he's already covered by The Pendragons article.
Circusandmagicfan (talk) 13:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan
I very nearly did but I thought that was an issue better left to the participating editors of The Pendragons to determine whether it represents a content fork or serves some purpose to the main article. I came very close to CSD but opted to not put her through that and recognize that she is new...and I opted for discussion with a COI indicated. Someone else may AfD or move to merge it and I would understand if they did. Alternately, it could be cleaned up with a rewrite. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:17, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
While I agree that Charlotte Pendragon has made some unacceptable edits I think you might need to rethink the way you handle this sort of situation. The problem is not just that she doesn't understand Wikipedia's rules but that she doesn't understand the language that Wikipedia editors converse in and she obviously isn't as sussed about information technology as you or I. For example, it is no good ranting at her about "WP:COI" because she might not spot the link and certainly won't have a clue what "COI" means. By all means revert inappropriate edits - but you need to be less aggressive in tone when you try to explain such things to a newbie and try to see their point of view.
You also need to realise that the policy against subjects editing their own articles has to be balanced against the moral right of the subject to have some voice on what is written about them (an ongoing debate which features in current Wiki board elections I believe). Although I don't think she has any grounds to complain about any sort of libel in the article, she nevertheless clearly feels there are major factual inaccuracies that could affect her and her partner's professional standing. That is an matter which Wiki has a duty to redress.
Lastly, when talking to people such as Ms Pendragon in these situations I believe it's usual to do so on their talk pages. You seem to have put a reply to her on my talk page, which she might not automatically see. I'll leave it there for continuity but perhaps in future you could reply to her on her talk page.
Circusandmagicfan (talk) 08:48, 22 June 2008 (UTC)Circusandmagicfan

<-- I have been patiently repeating the *conflict* theme over and over not as a rant but as an opportunity for her to see it..that notwithstanding those terms are far more universal than Wikipedia and she knows what 'conflict of interest' means. After a few threads, I chose to throw the first WP acronym out as a curiosity teaser in case she hasn't gotten it yet (I had intentionally been avoiding them) and because I'm trying to help her...I know she might not recognize that yet but you should. When does she start learning? I do not think that your argument about "the moral right" to edit Wikipedia holds any water here. Apples & Oranges: that which she is declaring is ALL nitpicking..there isn't anything scandalous or major here that affects their professional standing. There are no *gross* errors being corrected. That is exactly the point. She thinks so because she is involved..she sees errors that really don't matter in the minds of an average Wikipedian. Would you like to defend her edits? ...and when reviewed, you & I both know they are not going to fall into the category you suggest. That reply on your talk page was intentional so that 1.)you would see it 2.)she would if she finds your page again 3.) she knows that the issue still exists. I did reply to her talk page before her response to you...she seems to have ignored me after talking to you (not that that is connected in any way) and went back to editing the some of the same stuff in a similar way. You can't have it both ways, Circus, you get onto me that I shouldn't do what is normal in Wikipedia because she is new..but because I make an exception to what is normal for her benefit, and post where she is writing, you get onto me for not doing what is normal. Not fair to me...

Let's recap...Saturday a week ago, she made the Jonathan Pendragon page. I just happened to be patrolling pages and immediately saw a huge glaring COI error...I did what was wrong in not placing a Speedy Delete on it but because I understood that she was who she was and decided to try to handle it more I placed the COI so that it would at least open up dialog and she wouldn't get shot down while running the gauntlet of getting 'new pages' past the speedy deletes. She was reverted twice by others..(NawlinWiki was one off the top of my head) She was off & running with making other edits on other pages and I saw the bias in them, reverted SOME of them. She posted to me and I responded. I followed up by doing a lot of checking and reposted a citation request on her behalf regarding the accident...and you graciously made the page redirect at her request. After a day, it occurred to me that she might not remember (or have navigation probs) any rate, I posted to her talk page as a courtesy. You got involved (and it is welcome) but didn't have a full understanding of what was happening until I pointed out the Jonathan Pendragon page to you. I thought that everything would go great from that point..(and still don't believe that we are very far from that) but after she apparently had an email or two with you, she came back to the same material and began interjecting "I have established.." in edit summaries without providing sources. I believe she has probably misunderstood something somewhere..

Regarding my tone...if it does sound terse, I apologize (to both of you). I was trying to keep a "business" tone so that I didn't slip into giving preferential treatment to Mrs. Pendragon..something I perhaps did by not placing the speedy delete on the JP page. I will try to watch that my tone more closely. Also, my use of the term "immediately" and desire to handle this expeditiously shouldn't be misconstrued as is more so that I just want to get things straightened out as quickly as possible.

Do remember that my suggestion is for her to work with you (as an adoptee?) and you take her under your wing to help her with Wiki issues. I can understand that editors in the magic articles could be ready to cut backflips at her presence. The analogy is somewhat akin to Eddie Van Halen showing up at the Electric Guitar article. The editors might think it is great and jump for joy..but if he begins to increase the frequency of his own name and accomplishments within the article until it gives undue weight (because that is how he sees it, and he's right , of course) then indeed, gross errors will have occurred. Even more awkward is what that editing environment could become..possibly. Perhaps more complicated than any of the three of us could see? That is why the guidelines and policies are there. I haven't been one to harp on them...never been to AN/I (hope to keep it that way), never had to file a COI yet, and you can see that I don't normally tangle negatively too much with others and would desire to keep it of my contribs and talk page will confirm this. I believe I've only ever posted the COI template about three or four times..once just before the JP page on the same day..and that page has been deleted. I hope we can work to achieve a remedy. Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


I agreed with your edit to take Cornwell's mention off of the main Jack the Ripper page, though I stuck it back on the "additional reading" list. I think because of its fame and its claims it should be on the main page, even though I agree with you, it is 95% patent crap and bad historical research. Some of her leaps are just outright nutty. And since you seem to edit the Ripper page often, I did some edits to the pages of the three letters (Saucy, Boss, Hell) last week, moving stuff around, adding cites, etc. I also spruced up the Jack the Ripper page on Wikimedia Commons.

TuckerResearch (talk) 02:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's're probably right that it should get mention somewhere. My edit summary was a response to the inference from the IP about the quality of Cornwell's evidence. I also thought it was one of the regular editors having a bit of fun to see who would be the first to toss it out and what they would say ;) Whoever it was knew that the response would be lively.
I thought I had the Ripper letters in my watchlist..I know I had read them. Thanks for pointing that out. Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 03:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Article creation

Hi again, I simply write it in Microsoft Word complete with [[ ]] and whatever else and then just paste it in to the blank page. Is that any help? Jack1956 (talk) 21:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

*This* is what is happening to me (or at least I see a problem with no word wrap). If you don't see a problem then I'll know it is something with my browser. All that I'm doing is cutting & pasting myself but it turns out to be quite the mess. Please disregard the state of the is a long way from ready. Working on it as we speak. Thanks for helping me..⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 21:38, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, I finally cut & paste into an email that I sent to myself. Once I cut & paste from the email I received, I was able to paste into the Wikipedia edit block and get it to format properly. A bit awkward and I'm sure there's a better answer but it worked. Just experimenting and getting a bit ahead of myself..the article needs a lot of work yet. Thank you for helping.
Your talk page is getting to be huge. Have you thought about setting up an archive? ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 03:03, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
The very short answer to setting up yours would be placing this somewhere on your talk page:
{{archive box|auto=yes}}
|maxarchivesize = 200K
|counter = 1
|algo = old(7d)
|minthreadsleft = 10
|archive = User talk:Jack1956/Archive %(counter)d
That would default to leaving 10 threads on your page unless you have a very large number of threads during a single week. The main article is here and the article for configuring Miszabot to your liking is here. If you set this up today, you could expect to see Miszabot III archive your page shortly before 1 pm your local time. The archive link will be red until the bot creates the page(s) for you. In your case, it might be plural. Wikipedia might break...8^D Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 03:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

New addition

Thanks for your kind words...I certainly will put up some pics. Came as a bit of a shock, though; thought of myself as too young to be a grandad at 52! Jack1956 (talk) 12:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Annie Chapman alive photo

Hi BH, what evidence is there that the Chapman family are upset about the uploading of the wedding photo? Are they more upset about it than, say, the mortuary photo? Ta Dreamspy (talk) 18:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Good point!⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 18:38, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Gene Odom

Berean Hunter, My name is Billy. I am a friend of Gene Odom. I also manage his websites. I have been trying to get some of Gene's story out to all the Lynyrd Skynyrd fans. As you can see I have been having problems. I will try to get Pete Stevenson to correct my mistakes.

Thank you for your patience,

Billy Webb —Preceding unsigned comment added by BW2417 (talkcontribs) 09:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi Billy,
Thank you for responding. I'm glad you did. Everyone is welcome to edit including Pete & yourself.
Things aren't as bad as they might seem. With some reading and simply changing your approach they will probably straighten out quickly. Rather than introducing links to Gene's website, the focus should be to consider the value of Gene's books as sources to either support or offer alternative views to the text content of the articles. Currently, a template at the top of the Lynyrd Skynyrd article bears the notice that the article needs citations...and throughout the article there are many of these "[citation needed]". If Gene's book happens to address any of those issues or if there are facts that are worthwhile & interesting that would add value to the Wikipedia article (or other relevant articles) then his book would make a good candidate as a reference.
Bear in mind that Wikipedia frowns on commercial promotion. Simply dropping in external links that is designed to steer readers to a website is certainly viewed as spamming by regular editors (me too) who see it all the time and we generally don't think twice about removing it. Reintroducing the links will only make matters worse because the editing community (with which one hopes will accept the edits) may take a firmer set against the spammer. It could lead to the website being *blacklisted* in which case the server would simply refuse attempts at adding it.
This *article* can help you learn about writing citations...and here are some *examples* for you to compare.
Feel free to try writing citations in The Sandbox. You can experiment there. Usually, it isn't a good idea to experiment within articles. Also feel free to ask questions..I have to go for now but can try to help you later. Have fun editing, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 17:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Berean Hunter, Pete will be back from vacation on Friday. I will talk to him so he can make the proper edits and additions On the Gene Odom section.


Billy —Preceding unsigned comment added by BW2417 (talkcontribs) 23:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Saginaw River Light

Welcome. Thanks for contributing to this article. I'm done for now, so have at it. Please note the thoughts I put in the discussion page. Happy editing! 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Stan

Good Morning!..sorry got carried away after waking up and I saw your link-in to Weitzel. I think I have changed the coordinates correctly but need you to confirm if I managed to get it right...I was about to back away from the article myself...something in the template isn't right at the top but I can't figure out the fix. The pic parameters are showing through. Thanks for adding the article to Wikipedia! Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:05, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I actually did not start this article. I only added the info box and virtually all of the useful sources, which will get you what you need to know to substantively change the article. Good morning to you, too. The coordinates should also appear in the Satelite link that I put in the external links. Best regards. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Stan
I've been working on a great many of the lighthouses in Michigan. If you have the time (smile), I would appreciate your taking the time to peruse/improve them. The ones I worked on have the sources in place, as I believe that good external links are the least we can do. Yes, I know, Wiki is not just a collection of links. But it can be a great place to start. Stay in touch. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Stan
Sure, as time allows I can begin looking at some of them. Which ones? I will try to work that into my to-do list.⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Here is my watchlist. The lighthouses are there.

  1. Bete Grise Light (Talk | History)
  2. Big Bay Point Light (Talk | History)
  3. Big Sable Point Light (Talk | History)
  4. Bois Blanc Light (Talk | History)
  5. Charity Island Light (Talk | History)
  6. Cheboygan Crib Light (Talk | History)
  7. Chicago Harbor Light (Talk | History)
  8. Copper Harbor Light (Talk | History)
  9. Crisp Point Light (Talk | History)
  10. De Tour Reef Light (Talk | History)
  11. Eagle Harbor Light (Talk | History)
  12. Eagle River Light (Talk | History)
  13. Fort Gratiot Light (Talk | History)
  14. Forty Mile Point Light (Talk | History)
  15. Fourteen Foot Shoal Light (Talk | History)
  16. Grand Island East Channel Light (Talk | History)
  17. Grand Traverse Light (Talk | History)
  18. Granite Island (Michigan) (Talk | History)
  19. Gravelly Shoal Light (Talk | History)
  20. Harbor Beach Light (Talk | History)
  21. Huron County, Michigan (Talk | History)
  22. Huron Lightship (Talk | History)
  23. Ile Aux Galets (Talk | History)
  24. Isle Royale Light (Talk | History)
  25. Kewaunee Pierhead Light (Talk | History)
  26. Lighthouse (Talk | History)
  27. Lighthouse keeper (Talk | History)
  28. Lighthouse tender (Talk | History)
  29. Lighthouses in the United States (Talk | History)
  30. Lights in the United States (Talk | History)
  31. Lightvessel (Talk | History)
  32. Mackinac Point Light (Talk | History)
  33. Mackinaw City, Michigan (Talk | History)
  34. Manistee Light (Talk | History)
  35. Manistee Pierhead lights (Talk | History)
  36. McGulpin Point Light (Talk | History)
  37. Menominee Pier Light (Talk | History)
  38. Mission Point Light (Talk | History)
  39. New Presque Isle Light (Talk | History)
  40. Old Mackinac Point Light (Talk | History)
  41. Old Michigan City Light (Talk | History)
  42. Old Mission Point, Michigan (Talk | History)
  43. Old Presque Isle Light (Talk | History)
  44. Poe Reef Light (Talk | History)
  45. Point Betsie Light (Talk | History)
  46. Point Iroquois Light (Talk | History)
  47. Pointe aux Barques Light (Talk | History)
  48. Port Austin Lighthouse (Talk | History)
  49. Rock of Ages Light (Talk | History)
  50. Round Island Light (Michigan) (Talk | History)
  51. Saginaw River Light (Talk | History)
  52. Sand Hills Light (Talk | History)
  53. Seul Choix Light (Talk | History)
  54. Shipwrecks of the 1913 Great Lakes storm (Talk | History)
  55. South Manitou Island Light (Talk | History)
  56. St. Helena Island Light (Talk | History)
  57. Sturgeon Point Light (Talk | History)
  58. Sturgeon Point Light Station (Talk | History)
  59. Tawas Point Light (Talk | History)
  60. USCG Coastal Buoy Tender (Talk | History)
  61. White Shoal Light (Michigan) (Talk | History)
  62. Whitefish Bay (Talk | History)
  63. Whitefish Point Light (Talk | History)

Big list. I've been a busy boy. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Stan

That is only 12 shy of the whole category. 8^D I should point out that I'm not particularly knowledgeable about lighthouses but I can offer spelling, grammar, etc. I will use Category:Lighthouses in Michigan as a working link.⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
My goal is to create articles (or subarticles) on every Michigan lighthouse. I have been working on the existing articles, and on occasion creating new ones. The most obvious article that needs to be created is Spectacle Reef Light, which was the biggest and most expensive project on the Great Lakes to its completion, and is a spectacular engineering feat. Poe Reef Light needs a lot of work -- I've barely touched it. In any event, you don't really need to know a lot about lighthouses. I haven't worked on Sand Hills Light, much. If you look in the "Additional reading" you can get yourself up to speed. If you look in the "external links" where I've worked (extensively) then you will find all of the on line sources. Terry Pepper's Seeing the Light and the Wobser boatnerd sights are good, as is the Michigan Lighthouse Conservancy and the Lighthouse Digest (latter is good on current events). The National Park Service inventory and the U.S. Coast Guard list of Michigan lighthouses have specific info on a particular lighthosue. You will find that there is sometimes conflicts in the data, especially about tower height, and focal plane elevation. Terry Pepper's database of those facts for Great Lakes lighthouses should generally be deemed authoritative. He has the sources, and he cites them and uses them intelligently. Volume 7 of the U.S.C.G. lightlist is current info on lighthouses, and is especially good about giving you the "characteristic" of a particular light. The Coast Guard bibliography has individual articles cited about individual lights. Tring to pull this together is a big deal, and I've usually done that. The Clarke Library cite has a good overview on lighithouses, and the best time line on Michigan lighthouses. Don't mean to overwhelm you, but I think an overview might help. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Stan
Another lighthouse that has not been done yet is the Old Manistee Light. It is a priority. But I can start these articles a lot easier than you might, as I have familiarity with the sources. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC) Stan

Floating Battery of Charleston Harbor

Hey Berean Hunter,

Thanks for sending me that article. It looks great! I've been keeping fairly busy with Georgia-related articles, but if I can gett a chance I'll try to add to that article. Reb (talk) 12:27, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Glad you liked it. Enjoy your coffee [:). ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:39, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions welcome

Hi Hal, Here's *one* that I hope you enjoy with your coffee. I used your style guide as a resource..thank you for maintaining it. This turned out to be challenging finding info for sources. Any contributions are welcome. Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 03:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's a very impressive article about a rather minor subject. :-) Nicely written and cited. As to style guide issues, there are three minor points related to dates: Years do not get linked unless they are part of a full date, such as July 3, 1863; I never abbreviate month names (particularly without a period) in formal writing like this; in the form month-day-year, the year should be followed by a comma, per the Chicago Manual of Style. Hal Jespersen (talk) 16:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I believe I have your suggestions implemented..if the occurrences are there now, I don't realize it. I also hadn't realized that I had left the abbreviations in there (I was inconsistent). That's what happens when you see something for so long. Can't see the forest for all the trees in the way. It has been a good learning experience for me. Thanks for your help, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 21:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Lynyrd Skynyrd

Howdy to you. Take a look at the Lostprophets it has twenty-one references and covers the article with exception of one section. My point is how can i know most of those facts on the article are true without a reliable source. Oh and keep up the good work on the article. --Be Black Hole Sun (talk) 21:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Now I understand...

Thanks for the advice Berean. I will shut up for now, but, come cyber-judgement day sins of ommission will count as much as sins of commission...I have said my piece, it is up to others to act now, as they see fit. Colin4C (talk) 16:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Big Sable Point Light

BH: I am communicating from an overbearing public library system which has officiously blocked me from editing that page. there is a "sable" that is improperly in lower case. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 20:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC) Stan

Got it. Are you an employee of the Library? I was beginning to wonder if you were a lightkeeper. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 21:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
No. I'm just UPNORTH, and relegated to using the library's internet. They did unblock "Big Sable Point", which as I said was being blocked for reasons only understandable to those who design pubic (smile) er, I mean public internet filtering systems.
Your "present" is quite a wonderful addition. Thank you, Berean.
You're welcome. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 19:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Floating Batteris of Charleston

I apologize for not seeing it referenced before. As a scholar on the War, I was glad to nominate it for DYK. I just happened to spot it on a good search bot's form.--Bedford Pray 20:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Cheers, Thanks for that...where is it nominated? ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 20:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Right HERE.--Bedford Pray 21:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


Your recent activities indicate you might be interested in our little corner of Wikipedia. Check it out, whence you have the chance. :) --Ebyabe (talk) 23:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I've begun to read some of it. I will be working it in with other projects as time allows. Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Good-o! In a way, you're already helping our project, since so many lighthouses are on the Register, and you're improving those articles. :) Oh, and to toot our state's horn a bit, the Cape St. George Light is nearly finished being reconstructed. Apperently it's very unusual for a lighthouse to be basically destroyed and then rebuilt to the degree this one has. I took photos this past Easter, a few weeks before they put the top on. Very cool, and will have to go back to get more of the completely completed structure, from the top! Yeah, us. :) --Ebyabe (talk) 00:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


Updated DYK query On 3 August, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Floating Battery of Charleston Harbor, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--Gatoclass (talk) 07:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Poe Reef Light

Berean: This one isn't in your navbox. I put your navbox in it. Help, please. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 11:51, 3 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

Category:Lighthouses in Connecticut

Greetings. Thank you very much for creating the new Template:Lighthouses of Connecticut navbox (it looks very nice). I placed the navbox on the Fairfield County Lighthouses and also added those lighthouses to the navbox. I see that you went and added Category:Lighthouses in Connecticut to each of those Fairfield County lighthouse articles. Some time ago someone (not me) decided to create the separate Category:Lighthouses in Fairfield County, Connecticut and removed each article from the state category and placed the county category within the state category. I have undone your recent category changes to the Fairfield County lighthouse articles for the same reason that the articles were orginally removed from the state category. According to WP:CATEGORY "Usually, articles should not be in both a category and its subcategory. For example, Golden Gate Bridge is in Category:Suspension bridges, so it should not also be in Category:Bridges". I hope that explains the categories of the Fairfield County, Connecticut lighthouse articles and why they have been re-removed from the state category. (talk) 13:15, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you like the navbox..yes, sorry, I thought I was correcting a categorical error when I saw you adding the others..thought someone left them out of the category. I see now that I overlooked them when making the template. I've just checked and actually, I will have to correct at least one other template due to the same thing (Florida). Thank you for pointing that out to me. Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:OUTING of DreamGuy

I have deleted from history your last two edits at the JtR talk page. Please read the above link and my response there, and please do not try to repost the information. Outing the offline identities of project editors is a very seriously bad thing to do around here. - TexasAndroid (talk) 04:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi there, I do feel your frustration BH (boy, do I feel your frustration!); but do try to keep things cool and concentrate on article content - not the editors. cheers Kbthompson (talk) 09:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Better? Now have that coffee - preferably with a chill pill. At this moment, I envision some hulking resident of a Norwegian bridge placing a small sticker of a goat with a red line across it. There's a reason we don't feed the trolls - either they get bored and wander off, or get down to doing some useful work. Poking them with a stick just brings on another cycle of me, not me. Look at them all poking me. I'm just an innocent victim - and that's how the policy process becomes undermined. Ultimately, it seems to be all trolls want out of life anyway, since any time the conversation does get onto content, they themselves bring it back to behaviour - ie about their self and how others think about them. I despair of how to break this cycle.
Outing someone is never 'the right thing to do'. It goes directly against policy, even when the person concerned has already outed themselves. I value your contributions (as I do Jack, below); just take a break, come back, ignore the attacks and snippiness and try and do some constructive editing. Kbthompson (talk) 12:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Drinking coffee now..trying to calm down..perhaps the rest of you knew who(what!) you were dealing with but for me it is a new discovery that it is quite intentional on his part as I had suspected. Yes, admittedly the pulse shot up when I made the discovery. Did you see the two posts that were erased? Btw, thank you for your advice. Am I the hulking Norwegian at the bridge or an allusion to him. More than one way to interpret the vision...⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Of course, I was thinking in general terms. I wouldn't ascribe trollish notions to anyone - but I was thinking of you more in terms of that goat! I have no prior experience of the person of the first part - it's merely a general experience of dealing with people online since the earliest days of Arpanet (showing my age, and that I am foremost a computer scientist - only latterly a historian). There are people who would never dream of upsetting you in person, but once they get online, they delight in behaviour that would quickly get them expelled from polite company. Things that are repressed in normal life, just bubble up and (I think) they delight when the faecal matter hits the proverbial. Just hang in there and try not to get expelled from this polite company yourself.
It all happened while I was tucked up in bed (admins do sleep, you know). Did I misuse my powers and look? Of course not, to gaze on the face of the gorgon is to be turned to stone. cheers Kbthompson (talk) 13:02, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Hi BH, reading through the posts concerning DG reminds me of why I've been avoiding contributing to JtR related articles. It's just not worth the heartache! He used to wind me up so much that I'd get really angry... and that's not right. I come here to help write an encyclpedaeia, not get stomach ulcers! --Jack1956 (talk) 10:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I have asked for review of my actions reguarding WP:OUTING at the admin noticeboard. - TexasAndroid (talk) 13:04, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I have posted there, as well. BH, believe me when I say I truly understand your point of view regarding DG. You made a pretty bad mistake there, and I have to say that this is a pretty ordinary tactic of DG - pissing off others enough so that they commit incivilities equivalent to his, which muddies any complaint regarding his behavior. I've seen a lot of your other edits, and you do very good work; so I know you aren't a jerk and possess some self-control. You need to be especially on guard when dealing with DG, and not allowed yourself to fall for the traps set for un wary editors. This is what has sent other editors who might have contributed enormously to the article running away (Jack1956 is but one of many).
I am not mitigating your mistake, which was enormous. Even if DG has a website that has a picture of himself in a speedo carrying a placard with his name and SSN on it, that is something that occurs outside Wikipedia. You get to leave your identity at the door, if you wish. What you should have addressed was the CoI apparent in the discovery that you have made, asking for some form of oversight by an admin that didn't Out the user. I've since asked for that at the aforementioned admin noticeboard. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 13:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Hi BH, yes, by the time I got there an admin had removed your last 2 posts....I must admit to a certain curiosity about the identity of the guy, as I'm sure, do we all. I know it is easy to say, and DG wound me up something rotten, but the secret to happy editing is to walk away from certain topics for a while every now and then. I've been busy in ancient coinage, for example. Don't know why, know nothing about it! The grandson is due in late September....I feel too young to be a grandad! --Jack1956 (talk) 17:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

.. and it goes on

I was rather hoping that my little chat (above) would go some way to calming you down. It just seems to be continuing. Please just accept that TexasAndroid was trying to do his best for both you and the project by withdrawing the clues to DG's RL identity. If he (DG) doesn't want it known, then that is his right. To continue with this dispute is just disruptive.

TA is trying to put together a proposal that will move the article forward without the constant bickering, and sniping. Hopefully, you'll want to contribute to that - but, please no more disputes. Take a break and take care. Kbthompson (talk) 17:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

USCG and NPS photos

Almost without exception the USCG photos were made by them and therefore PD. (The few exceptions are carefully noted.) The NPS pictures are trickier, and you have to look at the attribution. If it says "NPS" it's OK to use. Mangoe (talk) 15:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Au Sable Light

Could use this photo. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

Berean, Godspeed to you. Best wishes and good luck. This too shall pass. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC) Stan


I have soooo many questions and I need some really good answers ,help a brother out ,I was born in the 60's. : —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yoyomaster144 (talkcontribs) 06:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


Good morning to you too, Berean. I added all the links to Beaver Island Harbor Light. Its real short as articles go. The infobox is incomplete. As to other articles, I have not got any USCG photos in mind, but as I come across them I'll be sure to bother you. Happy Sunday editing. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:51, 24 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

Beaver Island Harbor Light Here's a USCG picture.
7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC) Stan
Beaver Island Head Light Thanks for putting in the picture. It needs an info box, too. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC) Stan
Thanks. For two people that don't know what we are doing, we have achieved a nice result. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC) Stan
Holland Harbor Light, cites/links are in the article. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:58, 24 August 2008 (UTC) Stan Awesome photos! 7&6=thirteen (talk) 01:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

Grand Haven Light 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:12, 24 August 2008 (UTC) Stan

Peninsula Point Light links are in place. No infobox 7&6=thirteen (talk) 18:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC) Stan
Isle Royale Light 7&6=thirteen (talk) 11:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC) Stan Thanks. For two people that don't know what we are doing, we have achieved a nice result. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:05, 25 August 2008 (UTC) Stan
Yes, I think so...have you uploaded at Commons before? I have 1 browser tab open at the Coast Guard site, two tabs open for Commons and 3 open for Wikipedia to manage this activity. My monitor is full of tabs. It takes a little bit to do the licensing and info forms at the Commons..that is why I haven't addressed the infoboxes you were asking about. Kinda difficult to switch gears..I'm also uploading Florida Lighthouses and soon NC. I have lists where I've surveyed certain states so I could basically set this up as an assembly line process but it takes longer than standard edits. St. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
A useful tool for uploading photos at WikiCommons is Commonist. :) --Ebyabe (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
OH yeah! I knew there had to be easier ways. Thank you for that..I'll be studying that later. I've got two more for the night at Commons although I may be on Wikipedia still for a while. Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:37, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

She's a man, baby!

Actually, the name's a concatenation of "Ebay" and "Baby", slightly misspelled and reversed. B/c I used to shop on Ebay a lot. Did I mention my mind is a tad twisted? :) --Ebyabe (talk) 22:04, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

At least I didn't hit on you. @@ ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 22:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

St. Martin Island

BH, No picture, no infobox. Help, pleas. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC) Stan


Since there's already an entry than just remove mine, it wasn't too great anyway. (: —Preceding unsigned comment added by XDerikx (talkcontribs) 04:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Michigan Lighthouse Navbox suggestion

Of course I know it isn't a "lighthouse," but I think that United States lightship Huron (LV-103) should be included. That served the function of a lighthouse, and is in effect 'orphaned' by the omission. I figure you thought about this already. However, since you put this together, I thought I'd go back to the source and pose the question, as I do not want to be presumptuous or contensious with my cooperating editors. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:25, 3 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

Done. I had thought about it but wasn't sure how without muddying the waters of categorization. For the time being I've added to the "below" area which adds it to the template but keeps it separated from regular lights. Does this work for you? You could easily talk me into changing the color that I placed...I played around with several. It looks like the NRHP navbox color at present..I don't think I'm happy about that part and looking to change it. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Colors and aesthetics are outside my pay grade. But the "Related" idea works for me. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 01:06, 4 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

Charlevoix South Pier Light Station

Problems with references. Help? 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

Did you get it straightened out? I don't see anything jumping out as an error. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I see where you caught the error.⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
There were errors, but I think they're better now. Thanks for the help. I've written to Terry Pepper about the focal plane and height of the south pier tower, which he neglects to list in his databases. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

Lighthouse infobox

Looking at the Charlevoix South Pier Light Station it became apparent to me that a "station established" line in the infobox would be a good idea. Maybe you and Asher can come up with something? 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

Berean -- The infobox should have a space for the U.S.C.G. number. For example, take a look at White Shoal Light (Michigan) and go to the lighthouse digest link, which lists that number. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Stan
Thanks for doing that. If you are actually adding the USCG number you can ordinarily get that and the ARLHS number from the Lighthouse Digest link (which I put in the articles), and then add both -- two birds for one stone. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Stan
You're welcome. You should add this talk page to your watchlist..The "station established line" would be a good request on that page for discussion. I started thinking through it and forgot to get back to you on that. How does one use that line to distinguish between multiple lighthouses having been built on the same spot. Example: First station built in 1820, burns & is replaced in 1866, newer third station built in 1925. Which date gets used? ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I think that the "station established" is the first date for the first lighthouse or lightvessel put there. The current light -- Tawas Point Light, for example -- is on its third lighthouse would be subject to the "date built" and the "first lit" as (I interpret them) this pertains to the current light. I was looking at the "did you know" section of the lighthouse project, and one of those lights went back like a thousand years. Before I go to the talk page, let me know what you think. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Stan
OK, just needed that clarity. I didn't know if that would look odd in the box with an 1820 date but a picture of the 1925 lighthouse. I certainly have no objections but would want the other infobox editors involved via your request. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

White Shoal Light (Virginia) Great minds think alike. I did not know you had gone in there.  :} 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

I get around a little (8D ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


Many thanks for your kind words. I'm going up to see the little mite tomorrow. --Jack1956 (talk) 19:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

  • Thanks...I'm absolutely delighted...he's a total cutie! And thanks also for the cigars! --Jack1956 (talk) 06:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Your welcome! It won't be long before you are buying toys for the little tyke and your wife will have you rearranging the house for his room. Do you remember how to change a diaper? Might be time to start playing the senile part of being a grandpa. :) ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 17:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
[Butt in] Congratulations. My sister-in-law quadrupled her grannie status, recently, almost overnight with the delivery of twins from her daughter and a bouncy boy from her son's wife. We have been enjoying that vicariously, without going to the trouble of acquiring cots, reorganising the house, etc, etc. Anyway, all the best to you and yours. Kbthompson (talk) 17:40, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Charity Island

Berean, Needs a infobox. Please. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 01:01, 14 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

Hi Stan, I'm confused because I found the infobox at Charity Island Light...are you wanting that infobox copied over to the article for Charity Island itself or are you creating a new infobox? Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 11:33, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi Berean. Happy weekend. No. The infobox at Charity Island was just put in (at my request). It was very bare bones (as islands go). Can we do better? Meanwhile, I am working through the Michigan lights (again) and adding ARLHS and USCG #s. Went to the island, and I think you've got it covered now. Thanks for responding. Cheers! 7&6=thirteen (talk) 11:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC) Stan
I haven't been able to get any real editing done this weekend and I was really looking forward to it. Too much real life going on and just trying to check in for correspondence and the odd vandal revert. Maybe I'll get a chance tonight to do some editing. I'm trying to catch up on reading threads while enjoying my coffee this morning. I hope your weekend is good for you as well.⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:50, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

South Haven Light

Berean, Put in links, etc. in this article. This could use this picture. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

Looks like you beat me to it! I'll try to get that photo loaded but doesn't look like it will be tonight. Was having fun with the family today. Good job on the usual. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
You're gonna let a little thing like 'family' come between you and your addiction? Just kidding. Thanks for helping the 'project' along. Night night, sleep tight. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 01:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

Pictures for this, this, and this

I didn't use the pictures you've added because they do not represent the lighthouses described in the text. One might argue that they could be used as secondary pictures, but I don't think they should appear in the infoboxes. Mangoe (talk) 02:25, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that..please feel free to move, change, or discard...I may make a few more mistakes before the night is over. Thank you for catching this. I still have a few more to add but I'll try to be careful. Cheers,⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
It's OK. I've moved a few around and updated the captions. Mangoe (talk) 16:51, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I was hoping you or some editor would. The captions were deficient because I was uncertain exactly what to put for them. Your changes are certain improvements. I'm still learning about the lighthouses and Wikipedia as well. As I add more feel free to edit to suit. Sometimes it is a challenge shuffling images around to get a layout to look good. That slowed me down a bit last night and I often don't get them very well-positioned anyway. Your edits are very welcome and appreciated. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 17:36, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Ile Aux Galets

Thanks for putting your oar in. I'm done (for now), should be out of your wsy, so edit away. My only nagging question is whether this article has the right name.g 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

I have to get some other things done at the moment but will try to look at this later today. I'm hoping to do some more work at the Commons tonight. I'm unfamiliar with the conflict in names...which sources disagree with each other? If you would like, go ahead and describe it at the talk page and I'll respond there later. That way, Asher, Mangoe, or other editors may add suggestions in the meantime. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 17:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Milwaukee Breakwater Light

It's as done as one can do without going to the books. It could use an edit. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:13, 21 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

I've done a little bit of editing on it...the last sentence about not being on the NRHP is helpful to editors but seems a little odd to me for the average reader. Have to run now..back this afternoon. Enjoy your afternoon, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
It is odd. OTOH, a lot of lights are NHRP liste Could put it in the Discussion/Talk page. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:51, 21 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

Your efforts

Barnstar of Reversion2.png The RickK Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
For your constant efforts to clean up Wikipedia. Tohd8BohaithuGh1 (talk) 21:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

NHRP and historical info online

Forgot to thank you for the link -- . Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

Your welcome. I wish Michigan had a free way of getting the Inventory nomination forms..some other states either offer them online or you can mail in to receive copies for free..if it does exist for Michigan, I haven't found it.⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 21:09, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


I tried to get one of them, huggle or twinkle, a few months ago- I put it in my monobook and nothing happened.:) If I don't have to use the monobook thing there may be hope for me lol, thanks for the excellent tip. I'll have a look at it tomorrow when I'm properly awake as I should be asleep now lol. I just hope I'm not as bad at using it as some editors, but am an absolute whizz lol, I think some people have a knack for it, but it might be a help. Sticky Parkin 03:06, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


Wow, didn't know any of that! Feel free to add anything that you feel is relevant. I'm not an expert on the subject...I just started it because I hate seeing those red links. Will get the reference books out when I have a moment. --Jack1956 (talk) 10:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Lynyrd Skynyrd

Thanks for your commentary regarding my fixing up the various Skynyrd-related articles. My interest in the band goes way back - in fact, sitting in my safety-deposit box in my bank, is an unused Skynyrd ticket, dated November 10, 1977, for their headlining concert at Madison Square Garden. I regret I never got to see the "classic" lineup - looking at the videos on YouTube, I can only imagine the twin towers of Collins and Gaines standing toe-to-toe on "Free Bird" and how awesome it would have been to experience that in the flesh. My friend was luckier than I - he saw the Miami Sportatorium show 4 nights before the end and still tells me it was one of the best shows he ever attended.

The "Freebirds" book is good, but I understand Gene Odom's book is better - I haven't read all of it but his on-board-the-plane account of October 20, 1977 is absolutely chilling. BassPlyr23 (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that,..I haven't read either yet but am looking forward to it. You just answered something that I was curious about with Gene Odom's book..I was hoping that kind of crash account was there. I went through the NTSB accident report a couple of months ago and wanted to find out additional reliable details. The article on Gene Odom needs help if you happen to have his book. Check the history & discussion page & my archive on this page to see that it was almost deleted and still isn't very strong, could use your help if possible.
I also regret not seeing the pre-crash lineup but I can get close like last night. Take Freebird... The Movie on a nice surround system (Infinity 7.1 speaker system, Velodyne 15" sub)..crank it up. Next, begin drinking Jim Beam & Mt. Dew....and after enough of those you can convince yourself that you were at the show (or Woodstock for that matter). Works for me...8^D ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 11:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Have you found these public domain Skynyrd shows? There is a mix of classic lineup & newer lineup shows of mixed audio quality. Here are the Lost Demos & Rehearsals which I think are interesting. Happy listening! ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:41, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Hiking trails in Michigan template

I don't think there is a template for this, but there maybe should be one. See Hiking Trials in Pennsylvania template. I don't know if you're interestred. Just a thought. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC) Stan

Hi Stan, I'll try to take a look at this tonight..⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Good morning, Berean, Those navboxes really helped lighthouses. I think this could have a similar effect for those into that sort of thing. You might want a subpart for water trails. In addition to the one around Copper Island, there is a trail on the north end of The Thumb. Have a good day, Berean. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC) Stan
I am getting a bit of a work break at the moment...I assume that you are referring to the trails in Category:Hiking trails in Michigan for this template. There appear to be 8 in that cat, 8 in the "rail-trail" cat & 1 in bike trails. Am I on the right path? ;). ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 17:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I would guess so. This doesn't include bike trails yet, but there are a lot of converted rails-to-trails all over Michigan. There are bike trails along I-275, and a large number (and increasing) in Macomb County and Oakland County. A new bike trail just opened up paralleling US-23 between Tawas and Alabaster. Just a thought. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2008 (UTC) Stan


Hi Berean Hunter. That's useful stuff you are adding to Bowfishing. Can you provide some sources and history? --Geronimo20 (talk) 10:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Geronimo, I'm doing simple edits while I assess the overall set of archery articles. I need to check my library and see what I can come up with..I have far more on bowhunting and hunting in general. It may take a little while, I have a few editing projects in the works. Hopefully, I can turn up something useful.⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 10:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
That would be really good. If you are not in the loop, it is not easy to find references for articles like this one. --Geronimo20 (talk) 11:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: Your warning

OK, he's blocked now. In the future, you might want to report accounts like this directly to WP:AIV (if it meets the criteria listed there).
Thanks & Cheers, AmaltheaTalk 15:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)


The Postum page has a reference to linked. It's one of my pages that I moved to another blog:

The other blog was a testing blog and nothing more. Also, it isn't the original source (although I can't tell you where the original source is). It would probably be better to remove the reference. Rtcunningham (talk) 17:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


Thank's for the welcome! I'm not sure what you mean about attacking editors. Maybe if you can help me with Wikipedia I'll help you with Photoshop. All the best Speedo89 (talk) 03:04, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


I'm not getting this insult reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Speedo89 (talkcontribs) 18:16, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

User:Tohd8BohaithuGh1 and huggle (don't panic lol)

Recently I think he's been doing really well, but User:Tohd8BohaithuGh1 started using huggle the other day as another user advised him that it was faster than twinkle, and he seems to be using it for other purposes (such as removing external links [1]) as well as just removing vandalism. Is this acceptable and do others do it much? The manual for huggle only seems to mention vandalism really. We need to be firm with the guidelines as he was previously blocked, mainly for his use of Twinkle. I was happy to take on this adoptee after he had problems, but the use of tools isn't my speciality, and it seems to be something he's keen to develop. And I expect you have a good grasp of the rules and perhaps the ways people customarily use these tools and what is acceptable use. He is doing great though, I don't think he needs any discipline or anything even if this isn't a perfect use of tools, as the content of the edits is still good. I just want to make sure he is staying on track and see if I need to give him a friendly reminder. Sticky Parkin 19:00, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

His application of Huggle and the edit summaries seem to be fine. He is apparently doing a good job..I haven't been keeping up because you don't have to; his talk page isn't receiving the heat from regular editors that it once was (very good sign!). I haven't used Huggle yet because I spend most of my time on Linux of various different kinds rather than Windows but I do have a Vista machine I crank up sometimes. I need to try Huggle for comparison. Twinkle has three different rollback options in the diff view: Rollback AGF, Rollback, and Rollback Vandalism. With the latter, you have no opportunity to amend the edit summary and you get this kind of edit summary. With either of the previous rollback options you have the ability to change the edit pops up in a box with a certain canned answer. I usually use a semi-colon as the divider for my actual typed parts that I add on to the canned response like this edit which shows the standard response when you select plain rollback. This is the softer and more subtle approach to vandalism as we only really want to use the V word when vandalism is belligerent or mean-spirited. Rollback AGF yields an edit summary like this, but I have have added on more explanation for the revert — in this case the previous editor removed a citation because it was misplaced from the original text and it was causing problems..I reverted his good faith effort so that I could return it to the article and then with my next edit I placed the citation back in the right spot. In all three rollback options, the user's talk page is automatically opened up in a new window so you can deliver a message.
I'm not sure that the tool being faster is as important as making sure that it is used for the right reason...that is where people go wrong with them and he doesn't seem to be having any problems with that now. If you know the right reasons, when to use, and comfortable with WP:UTN then you shouldn't worry about messing up with the tool. Has he commented about the differences in Huggle & Twinkle?
I notice that the rollback options that you & I both received the other day is a lot like the "plain" rollback of Twinkle except that it doesn't offer the chance to amend the edit summary ( I do like being able to clarify most of the time). Here is my one use of the tool so far. I also like several of the other automated tools that you can set under Special:Preferences and then choosing "Gadgets". Friendly is a great welcoming tool..hard to go wrong there, in fact you & that tool were made for each other. ;) Adds a "Welcome" button in the diff view and when selected brings up a menu of greeting templates. Hotcat is also a neat Category tool..other good tools in "Gadgets" as well..I'll try Huggle in the near future for a test drive. Was this helpful? ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
I haven't checked his talk page until just now..have to play catch up to see what is going on..⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
It happened very suddenly lol, as you say, he was doing really well too. I hope he manages to get back on track and not get in trouble again. I'm surprised at how strongly people respond on his page- he must do something which really rubs people up the wrong way. Friendly sounds just my thing- I had no luck installing a tool in the past but I'll have a go. Thanks for your advice.:) Sticky Parkin 00:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
If you need any help, please ask. Let me know how it goes..⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Aaaah, maybe this is what happened when I tried to get twinkle too. In my preferences, I use the "classic" skin. User:Tuxraider reloaded added friendly to his monobook to help me. He uses the "modern" skin, and the welcome tab shows up easily in that skin when you land on a user talk page (I've changed it to that for the mo so I know I've got it.) In the 'classic' skin I can't see where the welcome tab is, could you possibly have a look and see if you can see it? Sticky Parkin 01:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

When I switched to the classic skin, all of my gadgets except the new rollback disappeared. Betcha, Tohd is using the Modern skin as well. Makes life easy..⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:37, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Back again lol. I tried to install Twinkle and this time I can't see it in the 'modern' skin either, only the 'monobook' skin? But it turns up in the 'modern' for you?:\ I'm getting there though lol:) Sticky Parkin 11:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
If you manually installed Twinkle by hand in monobook.js, I'd suggest that you remove it and save then enter the modern skin and use the checkboxes to select TW & others. I suspect that there is some kind of redundancy issue. I do have TW in both Modern & Monobook skins...I need to experiment with all of the others too. Is the checkbox showing affirmative in Modern skin for TW when you are trying?...Are you Firefox on WinXP? About to head to work, back on in about an hour...⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 11:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
It works, I've just had to stick to the monobrow skin:) I've ticked all the boxes, one day when I get round to it I'll faff with it some more. Thanks for encouraging me to do it- I'm really appreciating the tools- as long as I don't go too wrong they'll be a good thing lol. I use firefox on an apple macbook. Sticky Parkin 02:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Insult? observation!

Hi Berean I found Todd's threats a little strong, especially to someone new. I felt he was attempting to talkdown to me. It was not meant as an attack or insult merely an observation. I suppose in retrospect I should have called him a wanker, as in "come on Todd lighten up", it's a Brit thing! I'm an Oasis fan that should explain it. I will however resist any future naughty comments.

I did however find your Skynyrd conversation interesting as I was lucky to see them in London on their first tour at the Rainbow with the original lineup, fine show and a sad loss. Other shows I have seen that may interest you included the original Eagles (Desperado show)open for Neil Young. Two of original Steely Dan's three UK shows! Then nothing for twenty years! Hendrix's first (opened for the Who the weekend Sgt Pepper came out and started with that song!) and last show. I have been lucky to find an administrator to help guide me through this new world. I look forward to meeting again on a more equal footing.

All the best Speedo89 (talk) 01:45, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


The change was so sudden that a few days ago I thought he was doing ok- I'm sure he will again soon. I thought from his contribs he would eventually become similar to User:Unforgiven24 who excels in twinkle etc but hardly ever gets it wrong. Anyway, thanks for the excellent suggestion, hopefully this will help him WP:AGF User_talk:Tohd8BohaithuGh1#A_welcome_adoption_assignment. Sticky Parkin 01:13, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Lighthouse edits

You've been very busy. Thank you. As you no doubt know, I've (we've) been trying to keep whatamIdoing from perpetrating mischief (albeit with the best of intentions). I';l try to address your issues in a couple of days. Am very busy right now. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 20:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC) Stan

I picked up on the conversation the two of you were having and thought I could help remedy part of the situation anyway. Article structure and naming conventions are now in order reducing the problem set. No hurry on my comments — they were the spinoffs that I couldn't address at the moment during the editing and I just didn't want to let them go unnoticed and forgotten. Hope everything goes well for you, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 20:27, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments on White Shoal Light

Berean, The feeling is mutual. Speaking of which, if you were interested, I could send you a picture of the Michigan lighthouse license plate. My thought is that perhaps we could then cut and paste it and do two things with it: (1) create a real "Michigan Lighthouse Keeper's barnstar" and (2) put that photo into wiki commons, and also into the White Shoal Light where it belongs. I don't really know much about doing either of those things, but I've got the plate and the digital camera. What do you think? 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:57, 15 October 2008 (UTC) Stan

You mean this photo? Taken from here. Unfortunately, I think it may be under copyright.
Remember the images you wanted to use? I think I just discovered a pdf statement along those lines but I'm unfortunately still unclear. On this page there is this licensing statement (in pdf) but I don't see that this puts it in public domain. I'm just uncertain but I have an idea...I noticed that you posted earlier to the project page, Wikipedia:WikiProject Lighthouses, instead of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lighthouses. Your previous post about those pictures is just above it...and no one ever answered. You could choose to move your post to the talk page or for more exposure amongst regular lighthouse editors, you could post to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places. You may recognize some of the editors there and you are welcome to join of course..I think more about lighthouses surfaces there. Good list to watch, too. Someone from there would probably know the answers about using the pics as public domain. That issue has been on my mind for a while. Just a thought...⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Posted the materials as you suggested. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:06, 15 October 2008 (UTC) Stan
Commons:Deletion requests/License plates 2 seems to cover the license plate question. It is obviously a sore point. [[2]] 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC) Stan

The Working Man's Barnstar

Working Man's Barnstar.png The Working Man's Barnstar
Greetings, Berean Hunter. In recognition of your tireless devotion and attention to detail, this award as Keeper of the Light is conferred. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 01:04, 15 October 2008 (UTC) Stan

Minimum age

I don't think there's a minimum age to edit Wikipedia. I'm inclined to say one should be 13 to have an account, except that Wikipedia doesn't require any personal information, so there's not that issue (which is why other websites disallow members under 13). —C.Fred (talk) 20:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I also just checked the account creation page, and it's not covered there. There's also no policy on account requirements/terms of use, so I can't find anything that explicitly covers age of a user. —C.Fred (talk) 20:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Charlie Lawson

Can you tell me why you are deleting information about the documentary that was added to the Charlie Lawson page by Break of Dawn Production employees? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mysweeps (talkcontribs) 23:01, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Replied on the the article talk page. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Charlie Lawson

I gotcha. That's cool. So can the employee just add that there IS a documentary, scrapbook and forum about the Lawson's without any kind of description about it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mysweeps (talkcontribs) 00:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for responding. Usually, it is very difficult because there may be conflict of interests. Optimally, a neutral party may evaluate the documentary & the scrapbook to determine the reference value to the article based on subject content and make additions accordingly provided that the documentary & book fall under our policy for reliable sources. That isn't something that is easily done when you are involved. The writing tends to look like a sales pitch. When the job is done properly, you are more likely to see an inclusion in the form of citations and the occasional inline quote...probably less stellar than a publishing or advertising manager would like to see but that is where the value lies and what will really lead someone to the source.⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 03:42, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Years in piracy

What do you think of this category Category:Years in piracy ? Sorry I can't seem to make the link properly without putting you in the category lol.:) I know a couple of them are 'proper' articles, but am I the only one to think the category's mostly a bit of a joke?:)Sticky Parkin 02:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

That category is a bit of a mess — it is overly lofty and aspires to be something that I doubt it could become. Too many redlinks and they don't appear to be getting written. Most of what is there are bare stubs (often without any citations) and those stubs have been that way for two years in many cases. The article that makes the most sense to me is 1680s in piracy. If you click on any of the other years in 1680s such as 1683 in piracy it redirects you to that article which at least has "meat & potatoes" content.
I don't personally see that this category is useful; it actually subdivides the data so much that it loses effectiveness. I thought that style of list was discouraged but I can't recall a where I read that. Is there a current thread happening somewhere? ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 12:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Don't know but it just made me think of "talk like a pirate day.":) Sticky Parkin 18:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Help with two links

Dear Berean Hunter:

Could YOU help me put up two links to both my work on Robert Donston Stephenson under the category of Jack The Ripper suspects....and my Ripper website which is similar to Casebook?

My link to the site (Hopefully you can add this to 'external links' under Jack The Ripper) is:

and my work on Stephenson is at:

Please accept my apologies for causing you any problems. My work HAS been mentioned in the Ripper suspects section, but not the link to it.

HBRo2 (talk) 19:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)Howard BrownHBRo2 (talk) 19:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Hello Howard,
Thank you for responding. In this thread on your site, I am unable to open any of the jpg files and instead I am greeted with a screen that requires registering to view them. This is specifically against item #6 on this list. The unregistered user must be able to read your site to for the link to qualify. That actually prevented me from assessing your site further for quality academic content. Pay special attention to item #1 on the list...that is what I would be hunting for..unique resources (your exclusives not found on other sites) such as photos, illustrations, scans of letters, re-publishing of newspapers now in the public domain (that you type in and not copy from other sites), academic papers & journals, audio/video files, etc. This content would fall into the category of academic value. The postings made by you and your members are likely to fall under entertainment value ; (certainly no disrespect is meant by that term, it is of interest but that part would be outside the scope of academic linking for Wikipedia). You may indeed qualify under #11 on the list as an allowable blog due to your status as a recognized author.
  • If you can allow any user (without registering) the ability to read and enjoy your site and...
  • If you have good unique content of academic value as discussed above..
...then I believe you may seem to qualify on the points for inclusion. Is this workable to you? Please note that these are my opinions and interpretations of Wikipedia guidelines & policies and other editors may still raise objections..I can't offer complete assurance. On all other accounts however, your site looks very professional, not spammy, and potentially beholding of quality material. Let me know when & if you implement the changes. Thank you, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding JTR Forums

Dear Berean Hunter: Thanks very much for the elaborate and kind response ! By all means, please do what you mentioned in regard to JTR Forums to me in your response. I appreciate it very much! Ironically, since you mentioned the fact that some threads require registering to view, that our protocol was undertaken to prevent spammers and unsolicited message on the Forums !! Crazy isn't it? In any event, I abide by your rules and sincerely appreciate your time and effort to reply to me. B.H. Sincerely, HBRo2 (talk) 22:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC) Howard Brown22:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. Note that you can require registering for anyone who posts so that you can still prevent spammers...the unregistered user must be able to see/read without registering but posting is a different story. You will have to make these changes before a link could be added..⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Spectacle Reef Light

Berean: Happy Halloween. New article. Needs editing, photos, the usual. Please help. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Stan

Happy Halloween...too late in the evening to do much more than add the photo. I hope my combining of that sentence was correct. I'll try to look further when I've had some sleep. G'nite.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 03:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Good morning, Berean. Thanks for the helping hand. I'm sure you'll find lots more this morning. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 11:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC) Stan
Article is looking good. FYI, we were given a DYK, which I thought was pretty neat. If you can find the time, the citations needs a clean up. I've got another real project I've got to finish the morning. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 12:33, 1 November 2008 (UTC) Stan
Thanks Berrean for doing that. I finished my project, and it has shipped. FYI, when I click on the footnotes, they don't seem to work. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, or if there is somehthihg wrong with your (excellent) work. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:32, 1 November 2008 (UTC) Stan
For the ones that are listed multiple times, you click on the letters..try that. They are working for me. I was just looking over the "Further reading" section and I'm assuming that you will be migrating some of those over to the References section.
Are you comfortable with my citations & references rewrite? This could be useful to you based on your style of editing. Instead of adding the Further reading when you begin an article you could place them in the "References" and then use simpler short-form cites which show up in the "Notes" section. It should save you a bunch of work in the long run. In addition, it makes the text easier to read in edit mode and lines the references up in a neat vertical setup in their section. What do you think? Btw, what did ship? A project? ..just curious. ;)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Among other things, I get paid to decide various kinds of disputes as an arbitrator. I made one party very happy, and correspondingly the other party very unhappy. That is the nature of my business. It was a big long project. Kind of like several term papers, IYKWIM. I haven't digested your citations yet. I'll get bakc to you on that. We've got some play time this afternoon. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

Ha!..and there I was picturing you working with a lathe rolling out model lighthouses or something to that effect. I had lead myself to believe you were a retired medical doctor (based on Asher's questions to you at the time of his kidney stones). Arbitrate in that capacity?
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 17:16, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Btw, look at these examples to help understand my edits this morning..I have to switch computers and projects for couple of hours soon.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 17:26, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
The subject comes up, as I arbitrate many labor disputes out of hospitals, long term care facilities, etc. Before the medical arbitration statute was repeated in Michigan, I arbitrated more malpractice cases than any one else -- there weren't that many cases, as Plaintiff patients spent most of their time trying to opt out of arbitration. And I actually had case (in my prior life as a practicing lawyer), where we had a respondent (the charged fellow) who opted not to show up for the hearings because of his kidney stones -- something that gave the assigned Court of Appeals judge little pause or concern, despite the medical testimony that was offered.
Thanks for taking the time to beautify Spectacle Reef Light and tell me how to work the citations. It's a whole other level of expertise. Of course, the red linked text in this article virtually demands we start another Michigan lighthouse article.
Humbly, this article is already the best 'on line' article on this lighthouse (to my knowledge, and based upon looking at the usual and expected sources -- although I did not fully 'wear out' Google on this one yet). We covered more ground, and did it better than any of them. None of the other lighthouse articles has how to get there, or the NHRP designation. We only lack their pictures and diagrams. It would be truly nice if we could find the NHRP documents. We've pulled together a lot of sources and links, so that those who wanted to research this would have a serious head start. It's now got the right form and format. And it's not even done yet -- we're only three days into this. I'm very pleased that my fellow collaborator editors (including at least one 'new one', to me at least) came through in such an emphatic and effective way. It's great when Wiki works! Thank you and thank them very much. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC) Stan
I've enjoyed watching it come together and glad to take part..but I would have hated to have been a lightkeeper there. Once these citation are formed in templates, it should be easy to cut & paste them where you need them. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask...I can try to help. Have you got a digital camera to take lighthouse pics (or any others for WP)?
Just curious, have you thought about archiving your talk page? I use Miszabot III to do it automatically.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 22:22, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

It would be a good idea to archive. This discussion page has gotten way too long. I'll have to wade throuh Mizzabott III and figure it out.

Meanwhile, take a look at my latest posting on the Discussion page of Spectacle Reef. Some good and fertile material there, I think. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:36, 1 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

Military Rank abbreviations of the U.S. Government

You left a mysterious note on my talk page about military ranks. I don't know who you are, however, if this is concerning the abbreviations of military ranks of the U.S. Army and U.S. Navy being used on Wikipedia, then I can let you know this. Despite being a retired officer and knowing what the rank abbreviations are, I made some phone calls down to the Penagon today. Abbreviations used by wiki such as "Maj. Gen." for a Major General in the U.S. Army is nonsensical nothing that means nothing, and is not the proper abbreviation for an official title of an officer commissioned such by the U.S. Congress. Wiki should use proper noun titles and their abbreviations for all such entitled persons in its encyclopedic articles, whether Barons, Lords, Generals, Admirals or what have you. There's no debate on the subjet to be had. I'm just informing you that Wiki is not following correct naming conventions and protocols or the accompanying guidance issued by the U.S. Government about it's officers. What convention Wiki chooses to use, if it does not conform to the style guides published by the U.S. Army and Navy, is meaningless. President George Bush is not "P. Bush", and LTG Dempsey, acting commander of USCENTCOM is not "Lieut. Gen. Dempsey". Basically there is no such thing as "Lieut. Gen." as it is not a real abbreviation.

Sincerely, Grayghost01 (talk) 01:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

FOLLOW UP: I have discovered you have been reverting my edits in Wiki in the past day or two. Shame on you. I am a bona fide contributor, retired Marine officer, and expert in the fields I am contributing to. Your reversions are merit-less, and appear to be in regard to yours and others improper non-sensical rank abbreviations that are being used in Wikipedia. I cannot follow bad use of English, if employed by Wiki, or the inventions of things which do no exist. The U.S. Government chooses the titles of its ranks, and the accompanying abbreviations, as does any country. The titles of rank for officers of all nations should be properly made in the articles of Wiki. Please correct yourself. Thank you. Grayghost01 (talk) 01:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. You do edit Civil War articles here on the Wiki right? You do read the Official Army Records right? As I told you here, you are mistaken. Where did you suddenly elect to make these changes? Has there been another discussion string somewhere that would enlighten me as to the sudden changes? ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

In addition to not following US Army and US Navy officially published protocols and spelling for abbreviations, you are not consistent with other WIKI articles on this topic. In Commanding General of the United States Army you can find LTG George Washington, MG Henry Wager Halleck and so on. Also see United States Army officer rank insignia. So WIKI has already set the precedent to follow the proper spellings and abbreviations of official titles. Your citation of the Official Records is interesting, but there are many many spellings of words in that document which are not in use today. Additionally, the veterans of the American Civil War have these abbreviations on their tombstones in all federal cemetaries, which squares with U.S. Government protocol and the "other" wiki articles on military rank that you don't seem to be involved with: (The administration uses an all caps schema similar to the current US Army practice):

  • PVT - Private
  • PVT 1CL - Private First Class
  • QM - Quartermaster
  • QMSGT - Quartermaster Sergeant
  • CSGT - Commissary Sergeant
  • SGT - Sergeant
  • SGM - Sergeant Major
  • WO - Warrant Officer
  • 1 LT - First Lieutenant
  • 2 LT - Second Lieutenant
  • CPT - Captain
  • MAJ - Major
  • LTC - Lieutenant Colonel
  • COL - Colonel
  • BBG - Brevet Brigadier General
  • BGEN - Brigadier General
  • BMG - Brevet Major General
  • MGEN - Major General
  • LGEN - Lieutenant General
  • GEN - General

So the proper abbreviations across the board are:



This is the way I do them and link them. It follows protocol and official guidance, and has some good suggested linkages.


  • Lieut. Gen. for Lieutenant General

In this case, why even bother attempting an abbreviation? Just add the few remaining letters and spell it out. This abbreviation uses 11 characters and spaces. The original words use only 17 letters to begin with. What's the point? This is why this is a bad abbreviation, and why it is not used by the U.S. armed forces.vvOne thing I'd like to point out is that for decades lieutenants in the military have been referred to as "El Tee". Why? Because the abbreviation for 1stLt and 2ndLt have been spelled as such for a very long time. The actual use of "Lieut." as an abbreviation for lieutenant is extremely rare.


  • LtGen for a CSA Lieutenant General
  • LTG for a USA Lieutenant General
  • Lt Gen for a U.S. Air Force Lieutenant General

In this case, only 5 characters are needed for the CSA or Marine use, and a mere 3 letters for the Army use. I don't know why the USAF adds the space, but the space is the primary difference between the USAF and USMC. Regardless, no periods are ever used in proper military rank abbreviations.

I hope that helps you out. Like I said, there's no point in debating me. Your issue is with the other wiki articles on military rank, which give examples of historical American people from the Civil War with the proper abbreviations, and with the published guidance from the Federal Government ...

Sincerely, Grayghost01 (talk) 04:34, 24 October 2008 (UTC) I have posted the question on the ACW Task Force talk page and the answers that I've received so far (which isn't many) confirm what I believe – not what you believe. We should carry this discussion there, I think. I don't doubt that you are a good contributor, I just believe that this rank issue is something you are wrong about. They did indeed use periods in the abbreviations (since you don't seem to think the Army's official docs of that era are good sources...what would be a good contemporary source?). They did use the abbreviations found in HALMOS. I simply disagree with you. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 11:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Update: Grayghost did not prevail...consensus went against him here.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:50, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


Hi, the reason why I did not want to block them is that first of all, the computer is apparently shared (see for example the edit at 02:01, 31 October 2008). However, the warnings have been read by someone, and their removal shows acknowledgment (removing messages/warnings on one's talk page is usually not an issue -that's why I reverted you there-). The edits to Hamlet and Marxism are vandalism, and are problematic, but too old for us to be sure that we'll block the vandal and not someone trying to be constructive. That's why I defaulted not to block them and see what happens. But to be honest, the vandalism that comes from here is childish enough not to be a pressing issue (it is reverted on sight). I hope that helps :) -- lucasbfr talk 14:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

This part..."but too old for us to be sure that we'll block the vandal" is probably where I've gotten confused. My understanding was based on number of warnings per month. I had placed the warnings back when I saw the pattern is that the guy comes on, wipes off the warnings and then commits vandalism. It leads to editors giving level 1 warnings like this instead of the progressive warning schedule. He seems to shield himself with this exploit. I'm just hoping to gain better insight so that I prevent myself from making future mistakes...I'm content if you are also watching the IP and I'm not trying to argue any case. Your input is very welcome. Thanks,
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Well the mistake is that you think it's one guy. The computer is shared and the vandalism are most probably unrelated with each other :) -- lucasbfr talk 09:55, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Your may be right, several different vandals, but maybe feeding off each other. Perhaps it would be best to shut them off and let the legitimate editors get user names. If they start doing real damage, its on your head. Thanks,Stepp-Wulf (talk) 02:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC).

Rock of Ages Light

Cite form issue. HELP, PLEASЕ 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:02, 1 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

Thanks. I see. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:11, 2 November 2008 (UTC) Stan
Was my tweak on the ref clear? If you need more assistance, I'll be happy to help. I was "over at Commons" last night and wasn't that watchful on Wiki. The gallery I added on my user page shows what I was doing instead of working on Spectacle Reef on Thursday. I'm going to try to get more photos for articles..I got the old camera out and removed the cobwebs. I'll try to look at the light later today. (Family & Football today). Have a good afternoon,
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:29, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Good to go for now. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

White Shoal Light (Michigan)

thanks for cleaning up my mistaken link. Sometimes I type so fast, and concentrate on some of the minutiae, that I lose the forest for the trees. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:10, 3 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

You're welcome. For the amount of work that you do, you really don't make that many mistakes. I make more mistakes in my writing than you do in yours. ;)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:12, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
You're being kind. Part of my 'genius' has been to adopt the simpler reference forms, which makes form less persnickety. There will be a learning curve to adapting to new ways. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:46, 3 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

the evil IP vandals

You asked me in the past if it was a particular evil stalker on a user's page who did stuff like this. I attempted too explain it (though of course evil stalkers exist too.) Anyway, there's a good explanation on AN/I at the mo: Wikipedia:ANI#Numerous_IPs_doing_vandal_redirecting_of_User_talk:East718 Sticky Parkin 22:55, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll check that out. Cheers,⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:00, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


Hello, It is obvious that I need to study the wikipedia tutorial. I think I messed up trying to post a video for the Johnny Seven One Man Army. I apologize and will learn to do this properly. I'm sure you will delete or edit my foul up. I posted the Johnny Seven vid before I read your message. Chuck —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dezurtdude (talkcontribs) 03:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a look at your edits and see about cleaning them up if they need it. For conducting experiments while learning you can use the sandbox..that's a great way to figure things out without being in article space. Don't worry, I'm sure you will get the hang of it and of course, ask questions (I'm glad you did). :) Cheers,
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

RFC on Great Train Raid

Thanks for the suggestion as well as you attention to the article in dispute. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 02:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome..a community review will be healthy and welcome break.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:37, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Citing Facts

When I demonstrate my facts will you stoр changing my changes that are correct??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madman3054 (talkcontribs) 04:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If you can provide sources according to these guidelines and provide something we can check that says this is where they got their name then yes.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 04:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I did NOT state that they got their name from the Allan Sherman song. They changed the spelling based on that songs spelling of Leonard Skinner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madman3054 (talkcontribs) 19:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Regarding "canned" vandalism messages

I agree with your advisement. Note that the case in question has been warned repeatedly and has already been given the "last warning" message, yet still is free to continue vandalism at a steady pace. My warnings are given (1) to document the vandalism for later reference, and (2) indicate what the vandalism was. I have in the past used, and will continue to use, the canned warnings, but I also hate to waste much time on the idiots who do this. This case has attempted to conceal the history of vandalism already by blanking his talk page. I am only to happy to restore it for him. Thanks,Stepp-Wulf (talk) 02:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC).

  • No problem with you keeping me advised about our little buddies, so I don't interfere with whatever you do. The site comes up on my watchlist too. I think it always helps if several people are keeping an eye open on a bad situation and intervening rapidly. Thanks so much,Stepp-Wulf (talk) 02:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC).
    • Thanks for keeping on top of our buddy. I generously replaced the vandalism warnings for him and put them in better order. Stepp-Wulf (talk) 04:22, 22 November 2008 (UTC).

Regarding em dashes

[3] wasn't really necessary..."—" and &mdash; produce the exact same output (an em dash, "—"), just one is an actual Unicode character and the other is a HTML expression resulting in that character. I'm not sure either one is endorsed by policy, since "—" is easier to read in the editing window but &mdash; may display easier, so it's a tossup. —Scott5114 [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 07:01, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Discussion at Admin Incident Noticeboard

There is a discussion taking place at the admin incident board that concerns you. Please come along and contribute. Thank you. StephenBuxton (talk) 20:52, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Illinois lighthouse template

I tried adding these lights to the template for the Navbox, but they won't display: • Calumet Harbor LightCalumet Pierhead LightChicago Harbor LightGrosse Point LightLittle Fort LightPort Clinton LightWaukegan Harbor Light • Your assistance would be appreciated. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

Never mind. It seems to have caught up. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC) Stan
Oops, I meant to post to this yesterday and got distracted..sorry Stan. That delay on templates and not showing up immediately got me a time or two when trying to tweak templates..can be downright irksome when you don't know why it isn't working can't it.
Yep, irksome it is. Happy Thanksgiving Day to you (a couple of days early). 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC) Stan
And to you as well! I'm about to make my famous double-layer pumpkin pies in a sugar-free lowfat derivation. The recipe is worth trying if you've never had it. Enjoy the feast!
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 19:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Berean, That sounds delicious. I will pass it on to the keeper of my house, hearth, business, treasure and heart. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

The double layer pie was wildly successful. Thank you. Happy holidays again to you. 03:02, 28 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

Okay, now I'm intrigued...

...what's leading you to think Sim12 is a he? (I agree with your estimation that he/she isn't American--heshe was warring to add the --CANADIAN-- airtimes of one of hisher damn shows, while editing logged-out. Not so sure the spelling is 100% evidence, though--I dropped "behaviour" somewhere today, and I was born and raised in Chicago! :))GJC 02:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Simple, when has Sim12 told the truth? Everything we've been told is a lie. ;)
Actually it is a little more entailed than that...just an opinion but the sociopathic stalking in this case is more reminiscent of male behavioral patterns...Elbutler is being particularly stalked and picked on while the adolescent vandalizing & disruption of other articles, talkpages, and templates fits with the profile of other vandals (of which at least 95% are semi-adult or adult males (who are still semi-adult)). I've thought that the acting job was terrible from the many 12 year olds do you know that have the patience to sit down and figure out template editing and parser functions? Female? I'm slanted against my own kind there and believe (perhaps naively) that females do not commit a lot of wikicrime. I label most wikicriminals "He". (Don't you?)...FWIW :)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 03:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC) much as I try to avoid generalizations, you make a good case. And yeah, I guess I do label most wikicriminals "he"--though in a lot of the situations I run into, with the kids' TV articles, if the vandals skew toward male, I've found the crappy editors skew female--they're not INTENTIONALLY bad, mind, but females seem to add more cruft and too many details, examples, etc. It's weird--there's a doctoral dissertation in here somewhere, I'm sure, but far be it from me to ferret it out!
As for the Sim12/Elbutler stalk thing...I hadn't thought about it, but yeah, it could be a male--I was thinking more of some of the situations I encountered when I was teaching middle school, where an adolescent female kinda latches onto an adult-female "role model" and gets all fascinated with them. I had a couple of those types of kids when I was teaching--they'd decided that I had some dark, mysterious secret past (more true than they knew, actually) and in their case, they decided I was a witch/Wiccan-type--and they kinda followed me around asking personal questions and whatnot. So that was more of what I was seeing in the Sim12/ElB scenario--but you raise good points. (I was into computers when I was 12--I had my Commodore Vic-20 that my dad bought for Christmas--and I would spend a lot of time creating programs in BASIC that made little characters jump up and down, or project rainbows on the, it's nostalgia time! But I freely admit, I was a strange kid.)
I'm keeping a SERIOUS eye on this situation. He/she/it/they is/are probably the worst troll I've had to deal with, and if that problem is no longer around, I think the Wiki would benefit. Thanks for joining in the I said, I'm too "involved" to take any real admin actions now. (THAT is a policy clause I could live without!)GJC 06:31, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Hopefully this will give some of you a break during the holiday vacation at least. Yes, I remember the Vic-20 but I spent more time on the C64 and the improved C128...from gaming to cracking "Paperclip" (to get around the anti-copy hardware device you had to plug into the joystick port) and when 300 baud modem was the latest thing, we used to call up the local BBS's and aggravate the sysops (that's what the "page sysop" function was for, right? :)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 11:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to add my comments, i'm so glad "Riley" is blocked, now editing can be fun again. But can you delete her user-page (or put a blocked-idenfintley tag on it), she's not active anymore, and all she did was copy and paste stuff from my user-page. Also i like your talk page, blue is my favorite color, can you teach me how to get my talk page like that? Elbutler (talk) 12:55, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Sand Point Light

Berrean, needs work. Infobox is pretty sparse. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 03:45, 26 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

Will try to take a look at this a little later today (I hope) schedule isn't entirely under my control today...pre-holiday rush around (half of the day already gone - unbelieveable).
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I am hoping to put in the external links, which this article could really use. Happy and fulfilling Thanksgiving Day to you. We are going to try your pie recipe. Having trouble finding 3.5 ounce boxes of instant vanilla pudding, however. Best to you. Sorry, that was Ash96's pie recipe, I think. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 19:11, 26 November 2008 (UTC) Stan
You mean the recipe under the Illinois Light posting on this page? Use the regular size individual pudding sizes..they may have changed slightly as most manufacturers have downsized..I always double the recipe and make two more effort really. I have a bunch of cooking to do this evening..will try to get back on the Wiki to look at the lighthouse. Happy Turkey Day!
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 19:30, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
You would be right, of course. Thanks for the advice. I'll pass it on. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 20:13, 26 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

Image size displays. And it seems to be wrong size. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:30, 27 November 2008 (UTC) Stan

Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving Berean Hunter! Elbutler (talk) 23:09, 27 November 2008 (UTC)


Did you mean to put a message to Kresock on my talk page?

Kresock, I've changed the ACW template to collapse on First Battle of Bull this what you are looking for? Cheers, ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Hal Jespersen (talk) 00:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I thought that I was responding to the question he asked you (I believed that you weren't online and was thinking I could help him in the meantime). I changed the one thing on the template and edited the collapse state on the one article to see if this is what he was talking about. I wrote on your talk page because I wanted you to be aware of these changes even if they are temporary...I would be dropping him a note on his page but haven't gotten there yet for being sidetracked elsewhere on Wiki. Sorry for any confusion.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the help and info. Two more questions: Do you know why show needs to be clicked twice to have effect? Also, I tried to use { { Clear } } to prevent either state of the tables from messing with neighboring pics, but it still occurs. Any idea what I'm doing wrong? Appreciate the imput. Kresock (talk) 03:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for working on the tables. The image problems I see occur after the tables have been opened, knocking loose the pics of Samuel Cooper, of a Confederate order, and of Joseph Anderson. These pics end up covering some text and leave blank spaces where they belong, even after closing the tables again. I only notice this on my monitor and not a lap-top screen, if that helps. My knowledge of working with tables & templates is very limited, as you might have noticed, and greatly appreciate your help! Kresock (talk) 15:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Okay, after an evening of experimenting I'm logged in on 3 different computers and 5 different browsers currently but I can't seem to emulate your problem exactly. I've been experimenting...At the low end, I'm looking through IE6 and Netscape 7.2 on an old Windows 98 desktop machine with a 15" HP monitor...
In Netscape 7.2, the tables won't collapse and show/hide isn't visible (that goes for every subtable of the ACW nav template, too). The photo of Cooper is fine but the section Uniform insignia looks a mess..the wikitable with the ranks, Anderson's photo, and the text are jumbled badly. In IE6, show/hide works but the Uniform insignia section renders with Anderson's photo to the right but all the space to the left of it is a big blank area and the rank box renders below the photo with almost full width..not attractive but not as bad as Netscape. But this was before the turn of the century.
On a 15 month old Vista Ultimate 64 machine running IE7 and Firefox 3.0.4 and viewing on a 22" LCD flatscreen monitor everything renders correctly in a visual sense and I can't see any problem. A separate observation: I do notice that IE7 isn't displaying multiple columns for the Notes section but Firefox does. Also, many of my tools disappear in IE7..notably Twinkle, Hotcat, Friendly..I guess I would try Huggle if I kept using IE7.
On a 7-month-old Ubuntu 64 machine, running Firefox 3 beta 5 and viewing on the same model 22" LCD flatscreen monitor, everything looks great (in fact far better than Firefox on Windows).
I'm believing something could be amiss in the wikicode..mine or elsewhere in the article because the older browsers didn't render gracefully. You weren't having any similar issues before we made the tables collapsible were you? I'm not sure at the moment what is wrong but will be thinking about it some more.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:38, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I had no idea you would go this far into something I thought I only notice! Thank you very much. I use the last version of Netscape on Windows XP Home. Talk about mixing the old with the new! The only add-ons as far as Wiki is concerned are popups, hotcat, and twinkle. I have the advanced editing tools installed, but very rarely use them, and they stay off most of the time. None of the prior versions of the page had any problems like this until the tables were made collapsible. Interesting idea as far as the reflist change, and I assume you were the IP that set it to |2. It made no difference for me either way, and I previewed a few more changes there as well. When I click show the pics I mentioned do not move, and if I slide/roll the page then those three pics end up covering text, and clicking hide doesn't fix them. The only way for my non-educated brain to say what is happening is to say the function knocks those images loose. Making the tables non-collapsible again will probably fix this, but now I wanna know what's going on too, and I won't do that until I hear from you. Again, thanks for your help! Kresock (talk) 03:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I also notice on your user page, the tip of the day box in the center is obscuring the wiki tool box, and that's with me not clicking a thing on it! This leads me to believe all of this is my browser showing its age and dying on me, and maybe not coding issues after all! Kresock (talk) 04:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I have a recommendation, try installing Firefox for Windows and see if that works. Firefox is the natural progression for Netscape & Mozilla users and it probably has the support built into it that Netscape doesn't. You could also try Google's Chrome browser (Google Chrome wiki article)..I have no experience with it but it is another free browser available to you. Yes, that was me changing to two columns...I was doing lots of testing both logged in, as well as not, to see what the unregistered reader sees. I was also doing that while looking for something like an extra curly bracket that might would have been breaking things. I would be willing to guess that Netscape doesn't have support for newer CSS or Java ..wait..Aha! Check this support chart for browsers which may be revealing about the CSS in Netscape (check the first footnote to the chart). CSS has a lot to do with how your browser renders the layout. Changing browsers might be your fix. Let me know how that goes..if it doesn't work then I've still got something to hunt down in the coding. My user page may look messed up to Windows users in general and I need to do a new layout to remedy that..I'll compare that tonight to see if that is the case.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:00, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I got the Firefox and the images render on the page just fine, no problems when using the show/hide buttons. I guess Netscape can't get it done anymore. Appreciate your thoughts and help.Kresock (talk) 21:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
You're welcome. :) ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 21:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The Solomon mother/baby story is a parable

It is not a joke. It is in fact truth. I'll have my baptist grandfather look up the biblical sources. I only mentioned the Cartoon History of the Universe since it was indeed told in that book. I meant no offense, but I only wish to tell the whole story.—Preceding unsigned comment added by WorldPowerMan (talkcontribs) 17:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Minor Barnstar

Minor Barnstar.png The Minor Barnstar
For killing location creep. — Sebastian 18:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree...

The edit which i had made was collectively attributed from the dying thoughts of my nan.

She beleived these thoughts to be thorough and true, and spent most of her adult life researching the phenomena.

Please do not make assumptions which may offend. Dont get big headed... Thanks... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulmch (talkcontribs) 11:15, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, doesn't meet our reliable souces...and reads like crap to boot. This edit is not a helpful edit as it is trashy crap you're trying to interject into the article.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 11:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Berean Hunter. You have new messages at Toddst1's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Anon blocked

FYI, I had the nuisance that did this blocked for a week because of it. He was just coming off the last 48 hour block for the previous edit. Should be at least one week of peace...
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks much. What is the method used for such an action? Hal Jespersen (talk) 15:48, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I turned him in at WP:AIV the other day here and then today. The admin hasn't issued the message yet on the talk page but the block in the block log reads:
15:23, 5 December 2008 Tikiwont (Talk | contribs) blocked (Talk) (anon. only, account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 1 week ‎ (Vandalism: same edits)
As a repeat vandal, the blocks begin to escalate in duration. Have a look at WP:UTN. I'm also using Twinkle which helps automate the process.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


I turned the new information into summaries informing the reader about the use in general and not providing a fractured picture. The text is the same in the crossbow and the history of crossbows article. Generally speaking, I would support a more detailed discussion in the history article within the limits of WP:Summary. The sources are all online, so feel free to edit. Wandalstouring (talk) 17:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


I am late sending you a message, but I wanted to say thanks for pointing that out for me. I am just learning how to use this, and I do not have an account. I just wanted to help Wikipedia. Thank you very much —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Maintained tag

Thank you for correcting this. Wild Wolf (talk) 02:50, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

You are very welcome.⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 03:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Desborough Edit

Hi,Just received your message, i believe i left hard evidence referring to my edit on the page about the fire at the football club, (the bbc news page) does this information need to be looked into or has my edit been deleted as it is not seen as necessary on the page, i am infact a resident of desbrough, and live very close to the football ground so i know my comments to be true. The kindest regards, Thank you for your contact. Madmensking —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madmensking (talkcontribs) 00:08, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for contacting me. Seeing your first edit as *this* ...cast doubts on what followed...but your edit *here* was indeed a good faith edit and I don't doubt that the fire happened but generally we don't report the news (read this to see why)..that would be something better reported at WikiNews. My comments on your talk page were about your slang edit..not the edit about the fire. Your edit about the fire is on the right track just the wrong place (don't get discouraged, it is clear that you meant well) :)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

RfM on Annie Chapman

A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Annie Chapman, and indicate whether you agree or disagree to mediation. If you are unfamiliar with mediation on Wikipedia, please refer to Wikipedia:Mediation. Please note there is a seven-day time limit on all parties responding to the request with their agreement or disagreement to mediation. Thanks, Jack1956 (talk) 15:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

deletion of article


I would like to delete the article "Sasan Ziatabar." I created the page about myself, but now I would like to delete it. It has created some problems for me with my employer. Thank you. Please let me know how to do this, or just do it yourself if you can. Thanks.

Mza330 (talk) 16:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

This article has been deleted as a courtesy. They're actually inappropriate on wikipedia. Should you wish to retrieve any of the information, I will gladly move it to your own user area. Kbthompson (talk) 17:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Kb for taking care of that..I'll notify the user on his talk page, Cheers,
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 23:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Bounce, bounce...

You liked the wiki-ball too, huh? Kresock (talk) 01:54, 18 December 2008 (UTC) soon as I saw it on your page! Confessions of a wiki-thief.......
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
A thief of a thief of a thief! Do we need to start that Confessions page yet? Kresock (talk) 02:20, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Josh on the range.JPG

SNITCH!!!! Have you no shame?!? Traumatised (talk) 12:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I believe the shame belongs to you for the vandalism. I'm sure you have something more constructive you could do...
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:34, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

whats going on with that page

i was just at wandalstourings page and it was messed up! ehy lad can anyone tll me whats going on--Sharpterov (talk) 21:09, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

sorry about my sons edits

my son made some bad edits recently and i would like to apoligize. I am deeply sorry.-- (talk) 21:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for removing Nicholsy's disruptive edits from my talk page, he's some nut from Smallville wiki who's got some sort of vendetta against me. But what confuses me is that you reverted Nicholsy's edit in a few seconds, you keep watch on my talk page? Elbutler (talk) 22:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Mona Lisa detail eyes.jpg This user is watching you...

You may want to go back to Nicholsy's talk page..I think you meant to say "can't" rather than "can".....I try to watch everything...8^D.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 22:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


Elbutler has a habbit of being everybody's friend but will turn on a pin head and stab them in the back if it means becoming friends with admin as she wants to become an administrator for everything and is very power hungry. She always leaves messages on my talk page in order to provoke an attack from me to get me banned which is what she always does on Smallville Wiki as she sucks up to admin to get their approval. See even now on your talk page she abuses knowing full well that i hate that so she wants an attack. I would advise that you keep an eye on her and not me and warn her not to edit or leave a message on any of my talk pages. Nicholsy (talk) 22:50, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Never mind him, Nicholsy's been blocked for harrassing me. See what i mean by crazy? Elbutler (talk) 13:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
I saw that he was blocked first thing this morning. Hopefully that restores peace & order back in Smallville and here on the Wiki as well. ;)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:42, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Basketball players William Howard Taft

So you don't like basketball players. Ha-ha. Merry Christmas and properous New Year to you and yours. Best wishes. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:52, 24 December 2008 (UTC) Stan

He was a good 3-point shooter but never could take it to the hoop. ...
Most memorable was his Praline agenda.
Merry Christmas!⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:09, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Deleted Article Still showing up


The article "sasan ziatabar" still is showing up on google search even though its a dead link.

Is there something that can be done to remove it from showing up on google search. thank you.

Mza330 (talk) 14:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Google as well as other search engines persistently re-index the websites that they crawl but it may take some indeterminate amount of time for that to occur. It is an automated process. In the meantime, it remains a cached link and I don't know if anything could be done about that...sorry.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:04, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the Barnstar.

Thanks, and Merry Christmas to you too. Elbutler (talk) 18:42, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


I have come here because i'm considing nominating you for RFA, i came here to ask you first just to be safe. What do you think? Elbutler (talk) 22:55, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the gesture..that is very kind of you but due to circumstances in real life it is hard for me to know how much time I could dedicate to such a serious undertaking. For the time being, I rather enjoy being a "normal" editor and still have so much to learn about the Wikimedia projects. I am a leader of people in real life (I have white hairs and sleepless nights because of it) there is something a bit comforting at the present about being a simple follower with no particular ambitions for the mop. Perhaps down the road things may change. Your confidence in me is plenty enough of a reward though...Thank you,
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:43, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Lynyrd Skynyrd is not Southern Rock

I truly mean no disrespect to you but if you know anything about the history of Lynyrd Skynyrd and the man behind the voice you would know what i edited was true..he has stated in many interviews that he never wanted to be labeled a southern rock band,just straight rock n roll,im good friends with JoJo Billingsley one of the Honkettes from Skynyrd,Ed King i know well and i am close friends and live just a few miles away from Leon Wilkersons son Lee here in Warner Robins GA and it would be very wise if you wouldnt argue or try to debate these facts with the people i just named,its people like you that have them stuck with this label and its also people like you that can make it right,so i will ask you once to make it the way it is suppose to be or you can prove to me and any of the people mentioned above when there was ever a time when the original Skynyrd ever considered themselves southern rock,if you really knew your history you would know that the only reason Skynyrd didnt sign with Capricorn Records out of Macon Ga. is because Ronnie Van Zant didnt want to be labeled as being like The Allman Brothers Band and seem like they were following in their footsteps although he did admire the band a great deal but those are the facts..You can write back some smug comment if thats what your about but all im doing is trying to honor and respect what Ronnie Van Zant wanted for something he created.And if you wish to make a problem out of it ,do your research first and then you can come back with all that you have to prove us wrong but let me warn you now,you wont only be offending me but the people i have mentioned above will be involved..You might as well work for The Star if you are going to make false statements.I dont care what Kid Rock calls it or anyone else.Although there may be a millions sites labeling them as southern rock but for someone that doesnt know much about them and depend on Wikiepdia to be accurate then the people learing about these great people will know how it really was and hopefully the ones that already think they know all there is to know can come around and learn the truth...check the history thats all i ask...You will be hearing from me the right thing.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skynyrd77 (talkcontribs) 07:25, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Discussion moved to Talk:Lynyrd Skynyrd#Lynyrd Skynyrd is not Southern Rock
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 17:03, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Image upload problem

Hi Berean

I've got into a mess uploading my images. How to I delete stuff and start again? I'm trying to upload my own original photos - but the file name keeps being changed - the letter "i" at the start of the file name gets changed to an "I" or an "L" (I can't tell which).

Thanks for your help.

Chris —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrsastn (talkcontribs) 19:01, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Taken care of and responded on user's talk page.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 19:18, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Re: user's edits

Well, I don't know too much about it either (it's a kids show on the Cartoon Network), but his other edits appear to be ok. I only reverted that one because he took out like half the page. Thanks for the tip though. Thingg 02:07, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Happy New Year

Enjoy, I hope we all have lots of fun Sticky Parkin 00:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Happy New Year Berean! I hope 2009 is a good year for you! Elbutler (talk) 00:44, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Gaudeamus hodie. Nemo enim fere saltat sobrius, nisi forte insanit. Nunc est bibendum, nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus. Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes! Happy New Years to All!
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Happy New Years!

Three feet of beer --Outstanding! Happy New Year to you as well! Kresock (talk) 02:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Template:Lighthouses of Michigan

Berean, Thank you for the holiday greetings. I did finish drinking a Christmas gift, namely part of a growler of "Wee Heavy Under the Kilt" (a high ABV Scotish Ale, although not as high as their "Final Absolution" Belgian Triple) by Dragonmead Brewery, which is one of the finest (maybe the finest, although I have not been to them all) microbrewery in Michigan. May you too have a happy New Year.

In any event, would you please take a look at the template. What I tried to do didn't work out. I lost the display of the Huron Lightship in the box. Maybe you can do this better. Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 13:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC) Stan

That looks good to me. It accomplishes what I wanted to do. If you are ever near the Dragonmead Brewery it is worth stopping in. The only problem with it is finding it (east bound I-696 service drive, four driveway entrances east of Bunert, which is in turn just east off the Groesbeck Highway (M-97) exit). It is a more or less industrial looking building, and you would pass it by if you didn't know where to look. It is the cultural highlight of Warren, Michigan (IMHO). Incidentally, I am in that neighborhood, and we could share one with some advance planning. Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:01, 1 January 2009 (UTC) Stan
The "Jul Øl" Norwegian Style Ale that they have listed looks like it would be good. That Belgian trippel isn't like a Triple Bock is it..with both triple bock and barleywines I use a spoon rather than a glass since they are powerful in flavor. Dragonmead has an excellent selection (they are missing all the lambics, faro, and gueuze from the Belgian list which are my favorite Belgian styles, though). If I get up that way, I will email you to set that up..I would look forward to it. It's 18 degress here now which is cold for us, I can only imagine how you guys do it.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
FYI, the triple and the barley wine in smaller glasses. They do make lambics, and they are (like all their beer) 'true to type.' They have a palette of fifty or sixty beers (out a a surprisingly small place, I don't know how they do it), although they aren't all on tap at any one time. Once in a great while, they have made some Elijah Craig bourbon barrel (Elijah Craig 18 year old barrels -- 75% "Angel's Share" which tells you a lot about the remaining oak, not just the whiskey -- from Heaven Hill distilleries in Bardstown, Kentucky) conditioned browns that have been outstanding -- and they take like three years to make. 18 degrees ain't nothin'. OTOH, being in the area surrounding Detroit, we are really in a banana belt for Michigan, almost a full planting zone more mild than the surrounding area. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 14:23, 1 January 2009 (UTC) Stan

first timer

Thank you for your comment. I thought I properly attributed the information I submitted on sweetgum. My question is this: Was my mistake in the formatting?

I would appreciate any feedback / direction that you might offer.

Thanks again for being gentle with a newcomer.

I enjoyed your photographs - as a forester of 30+ years, I never tire of seeing good nature photography.

Mwb6700 (talk) 14:59, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello & thank you for contacting me. When you added this edit you didn't give any attribution to the original author who wrote it. I added that with this edit as well as corrected the original author's misspelling. It would help to take a look at WP:REF, WP:CITE, and WP:CITEX to see various examples and methods of citations.
Fwiw, some of the info is a bit dated...I don't believe anyone is using sweetgum to make phonograph cabinets and such now. Much of the usage is now antiquated by our terrible losses in the furniture industry. Even though sweetgums are prolific there is unfortunately much fewer of them now than in 1965 when that was written. Beautiful trees...just don't walk under one barefoot. :)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:30, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


Thanks for the clarification. I assumed (wrongly) that since it was a USDA Forest Service website that an author citation didn't apply. Will correct in the future.

I did notice the phonograph cabinet reference and almost took it out; I left it as a historical reference; next time I will make that note that "previously was used", etc.

Sweetgum is a very important tree still. It is planted and cultivated for commercial timber purposes in the appropriate sites. That was the impetus for my edit - the previous information led readers to believe it was a trash tree, which is, unfortunately, a commonly-held belief.

It is almost guaranteed that if you have wooden or upholstered furniture in your home, the frames, inner plys of veneers are made of sweetgum and/or yellow-poplar (Liriodendron tuplipfera). Sweetgum lumber, once dried, is extremely stable and will not shrink/swell significantly with humidity changes.

Happy New Year to you and everyone in your beautiful state.

Mwb6700 (talk) 15:56, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Happy New Years!

Thanks, you too. (I have no interesting photo to post on your page. :-)) Hal Jespersen (talk) 16:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Happy New Year

A Happy and Prosperous New Year to you and yours. May your edits never be reverted! Best wishes, Jack1956 (talk) 16:30, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


Thx for your input. We had talk but he decided to delete. He has his view and I mine. It is time it was taken out of our hands and decided by neutral third parties.BillMaddock (talk) 20:57, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Interwiki links

Hi Berean - sorry to trouble you but I can't get my head around how to create a link between my contributions on 'Shooting Sports' and 'Archery'. What syntax (html code?) do I use to create a hotlink from a word (or phrase) to another of my Wiki contributions? I've looked at the Help section - but I'm still not clear. Regards, Chris —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrsastn (talkcontribs) 20:53, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I've made the link that I think you are wanting in the Shooting sports "see also" section. Check the link to make sure I understood you correctly? I need more coffee to be effective in the morning 8^D.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:17, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Berean-thats just right. Chrsastn (talk) 22:44, 11 January 2009 (UTC)