User talk:Bgwhite/Archive 3

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Rothschild hoaxes

Thanks for spotting these: I have zapped them all and blocked the author. The Rothschilds certainly seem to attract hoaxers - last year there was "Stefan de Rothschild" who had actually set up a lot of websites about himself and his supposed organizations and was twittering away and blogging on the Huffington Post. I haven't checked over Rothschild family - have you cleaned out all the nonsense from that? JohnCD (talk) 09:30, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I cleaned up Rothschild family. They deleted names that had citation needed tags. I check a few and couldn't find those names on the web, so I didn't restore those. Bgwhite (talk) 01:01, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Herlinatiens

Materialscientist (talk) 08:02, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for helping me Bryan!

A small cup of coffee.JPG As a newbie on Wikipedia, i should be thank to you Bgwhite, to teach me how an article is will be publised on Wikipedia. Thanks Bgwhite! Thanks Wikipedia! Sinukarta (talk) 16:21, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Geraldine Arata

Hello Bgwhite, you removed quite a few references from this article and her quote. So you are saying I can add the quote back as long as it isn't in the beginning of the article and I source it. It's from her website and I also thought you could reference schools regardless if the student is mentioned or not. Discuss with me please, still learning. Thanks!Thisandthem (talk) 00:09, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much for that info!!!Thisandthem (talk) 02:20, 8 July 2011 (UTC)


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Thanks for guide

I am sorry, I have read that and I'll never again do this mistake, mistake happen by me, I am agree for this. Thankyou for advice and helping me.--AssassiN's Creed (talk) 05:13, 11 July 2011 (UTC) I am really so much thanks for guide and help me, actually I am new and I hope your guide will help me, thanks.--AssassiN's Creed (talk) 05:33, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for removing the inappropriate tags User:Assassin's Creed put on my article Norman Criddle

Thank you for removing the inappropriate tags that Assassin's Creed put on my article Norman Criddle. This is the second time in 48 hours he has placed inappropriate tags on an article I started. The article Norman Criddle does not violate NPOV policy, and it has 5 references in 6 inline citations for 6 sentences so it clearly doesn't need additional references. Over the weekend he put 5 inappropriate tags on my article Carpenter's Chameleon. They were removed by someone else and evidence of my query to Assassin's Creed on his talk page was removed. It is beginning to look like he is targeting my articles to harrass me. I have asked for his reasons for his actions, but so far he has offered no response. If you can see something in the articles that leads to his behavior, I would appreciate your insight. Again, thank you for removing the inappropriate tags.Cohee (talk) 18:10, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately he is just not targeting your articles, but alot of different articles. If you look at his talk page, I've warned him about this twice in the past two days. I just got finished a few minutes ago with the last warning. He is a relatively new user. He is making some good edits, but he doesn't know what he is doing in alot of cases. I'm trying to keep an eye on things with him. Bgwhite (talk) 18:15, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


Dear Bgwhite, Im not sure where I am suppose to write this. I put it on the other talk page too. Im sorry for the late reply I have been away only to return to this horrible mess caused by Mr Borean. He has placed a personal attack on Mr Heart, someone he doesn't even know. It was I that requested Mr Borean remove the article from his blog, not the attorney. The attorneys details were there so he could contact him with any questions and if read correctly there was no threat, it was a request as he accused Mr Heart of stealing a name he made up years ago for his travel show. I am new to Wikipedia as you know and have made plenty of mistakes adding information correctly but Im doing my best. I am making these points because Mr Borean has placed all the citations on the page and forced it to be deleted. It says personal attacks are not allowed on Wikipedia so why has he been allowed to do this? I'm looking at these warning boxes at the top of Mr Hearts page and it says something about close connection & conflict of interest which Mr Borean also created. I'm just a fan and intern does that mean Im not allowed to add information about him? Bgwhite, when I created this page my intent was to get it up to a stage where it looked ok and was within all the necessary guidelines. What I don't understand is after asking you lots of questions and you helping me, you said that there were enough references with imdb giving more than two,but the page is now up for deletion? This is all very upsetting as its reflected badly on Mr Heart which was never my intention. (Krystic1 (talk) 19:52, 8 July 2011 (UTC))
Dear Bgwhite, I've just read everything by all the editors that have written things about Mr Hearts page and its awful. I asked Mr Borean(UrbanTerrorist) to delete his first article blog because its not true what he said about Mr Heart. He thought it was a lawyer, continued his personal attack editing this page and now this page makes Mr Heart look terrible. Mr Borean(UrbanTerrorist) has nothing to do with any of it and its not fair that this person whose a wikipedia editor is allowed to do that because of there own perceptions on something. He said he only called in to question Mr Hearts actions. Thats conflict of interest isn't it & shouldnt be allowed.

I saw that Mr Hearts Outback Zack Animal Appeal is also up for deletion.. He was the only person that did anything for the animals during those fires and he raised half a million dollars giving it all to a foundation. How is that not notable? I'm trying to add references but am struggling with how to do it. I have a pdf newspaper article, urls to tv news clips, articles, celebrity websites etc but cant understand the format they're suppose to be in so they come up in the references area. Could you please show me an example of a url reference? I think its different from just putting a url link after a sentence so it comes up numbered in references is that right? Thanks for your help (Krystic1 (talk) 03:32, 12 July 2011 (UTC))

Thanks Bgwhite. Should I post here to you or do you get notified when i write to you on my talk page? I have another question;: do I have to put a reference for every piece of information I put on the page? I get the feeling now that I do. I have lots of information about Mr Heart but finding references to a lot of the things is near impossible like his parents and childhood and work he has done around the world. Does this mean I need to delete that which I cannot source? Also, I have a pdf newspaper article about him but the newspapers website doesnt have an operating link to the issue number. Its listed in archives but you cant click on it. What can I do in this situation? Should I email the newspaper article to you or someone at wikipedia? Thank you (Krystic1 (talk) 18:55, 12 July 2011 (UTC)) :::P.s Could you please vote for this page not to be deleted. Thank you Bgwhite (Krystic1 (talk) 23:20, 12 July 2011 (UTC))

Hubertine Heijermans

Hello, I thought with the help I received from other wikipediens, that the article was completed today. Now I am really flabbergasted, I do not understand, I did read what a orphan article means, and what needs to be done, but i thought it was fine. The links are in place, meaning essentials in the text are connected with appropriate articles. For instance mentioning Heijermans's teachers is important and links are done. The Academy professor in Amsterdam Gé Röling was teaching Heijermans in 1957, a full year of intensive study after life model, but her marriage and moving to Switzerland in 1958 shortened the studies. But then comes the link to the article of Kraczyna, her etching professor at the American Graduate School in Florence (1968-1970), which is an interesting link for a reader, and the name of the school (Villa Schifanoia) is mentioned. Everything can be verified. The etching lessons and details were continuing over the years during a lasting friendship. But that school since the 1970s does not exist any more. It was Kraczyna who contacted Luis Camnitzer in 1981, in order to teach Heijermans the full extent of photo-etching. Camnitzer is mentioned in en.Wikipedia, so again i do not see any lack of links. In Switzerland Heijermans knows the Knie family and they admire and possess her painting of the Swiss National circus. There is the link with those paintings in question on the personal website. Apart from that museums like Jenisch show a list in the 'cabinet d'estampes', unfortunately only in french. Please help me out to get this done. I hope you understand that life and artwork took place in Holland since 1936, then since 1958 both in Italy and in French speaking Switzerland. Thanks, Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 02:25, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

The orphan tag has nothing to do with what is in the article. It means that there are not enough articles on Wikipedia that link to Heijermans' article. On the left hand side of any article is a menu. If you go down to "toolbox", there will be an option that says "What links here". If you click on "What links here", you will see the other pages that has a wikilink (the blue text) to your article. Currently there are no other articles that do. A good place to put a link is on the Museum van Bommel van Dam article. You could add a sentence or two that Heijerman's paintings are located there. When three other articles have a link to yours, the orphan tag goes away.
A much more serious problem is that there are no references in the article. Any biography of a living person will be deleted if no references are found. WP:REF contains information on how to add references. The first few sections is all you need to know at this point. If you have any questions, please don't be afraid to ask me. Bgwhite (talk) 03:49, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Hubertine Heijermans

Hello, thank you for your help and encouragement. Paldopaldino made according to me a mistake when creating the article by starting to mention Biography. It could just as well be an article about a person. I added info to Museum van Bommel van Dam and after professor Röling at the Rijksakademie theprofessor Jan Wiegers under Early life. Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 12:32, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Hubertine Heijermans

A question about portraits. This in relation to the required references. Isabelle Adjani figures in blue. Her portrait is visible and an article exists on en.wikpedia. Needs that picture to be added to wikipedia Commons or gallery? The same for the painting of circus Knie? More reference I cannot think of. Kalaharih--Kalaharih (talk) 12:39, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Anna Úrsúla Guðmundsdóttir


In the above named article you have changed the namesort, this way, which I think was a mistake. As I understand WP:PERSON it should be used as was written earlier, however, since you have an enormous experience on this topic you could be easily right and I might completely misunderstand something. Please, take a look on it if you have time. :) Thanks, Thehoboclown (talk) 16:07, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Icelandic names are different from the usual western names in that they have no family name and instead use a patronymic system. They are one of the last places that still do this. See Icelandic name. So, the ancients of Wikipedia decided that for patronymic names, sort how it is spelled. Sorting for other names is usually based on their customs. For example, Japanese (before 1900), Chinese and Korean names follow the pattern of surname, firstname. Vietnamese names are Surname Middle First. My favorite is Burmese names. They don't have an last names and can change their name whenever the feel like it. There are some I don't have a clue on how to do. Alot of African names are based on the tribe you belong to and I don't know the individual tribe's customs. Bgwhite (talk) 17:37, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
Wow, thanks for taking your time for such a deep and informative answer! I didn't expect such a wide range and colorful exploration of the topic, but this is just great! :) I read through the articles and I think I not only got the answer but got richer with some other interesting facts! Thank you! -- Thehoboclown (talk) 22:32, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Question on German football notablity

Got your note. I don't know anything about the German Football League and, so, can't offer an opinion on whether or not its participants should automatically qualify under WP:NSPORT. I'd be inclined to treat their players on a case-by-case basis under WP:GNG depending on how much coverage they have received. On a related note, your nom of Allan Holland, which appears to be solid, has drawn my attention to the recent contributions of User:DMC511. This person has created numerous articles of late concerning the UIFL and CIFL, and players in those leagues. E.g., DeQwan Young, Dray Mason, Mike Tatum, Martevious Young, Aric Evans, Dominick Goodman, Bryan Williams (American football), Maurice Lee, Chris Respress, 2011 Port Huron Predators season, 2011 Marion Blue Racers season, 2011 Dayton Silverbacks season, 2010 Miami Valley Silverbacks season. I have no background on these leagues, but this may warrant a further look. Cbl62 (talk) 23:53, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

article Otálvora

The article Edgar C. Otálvora it has some references. Thanks for your help. Luis ciudad vaca (talk) 16:22, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Ron Lurie

I found you edit comment and changes here interesting. The article was already being sorted per WP:NAMESORT. Then you also added a picture request even though it was already requested within the Nevada project box and category. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:27, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The talk page is not sorted with the main article's DEFAULTSORT parameter. You have to add listas to project banner. If you add listas to the biography banner, then all project will use that value for their listas. If you add listas to another banner, only that banner and the banners below will use that value. Listas and living are the only required parameters for the biography banner. As for the photo, if it is in the biography banner, it gets dumped into a general category. If the request for an image is in Nevada, then it goes into Category:Wikipedia requested photographs in Nevada. So, if people want to see if one of their photos of people from Nevada could be used, they can goto the Nevada category. Bgwhite (talk) 19:40, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
I never said that the 'talk page is not sorted with the main article's DEFAULTSORT parameter'. It is however sorted with the listas parameter in the Nevada project banner. The photo was already requested in the Nevada entry so your adding a specific request is just adding an extra template that is not needed. 19:44, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
{{Image requested}} (or the older {{reqphoto}}) is the preferred way over adding it into a banner. Please see WP:RP where it says, "Either or both methods together can be used for a request; however, using the {{reqphoto}} template is the preferred method, as that is better monitored and managed."
Listas was only in the Nevada banner. Therefore the biography banner was not using it because Nevada was below Biography. (see response above). In Biographies, the biography banner is the only banner that should contain listas, so that all banners use the same listas. You said "article was already being sorted per WP:NAMESORT". If you look at WP:NAMESORT you all will see it doesn't talk about listas, but only DEFAULTSORT and category.Bgwhite (talk) 20:34, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Juan Luis Mora Parada

Hello. South American football isn't my area of expertise but I do know other editors who are very knowledgeable of it so I'll ask them. If they have played in the Chilean Primera División their articles should be fine, but Primera B is less clear cut. The article creator has certainly been busy. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 08:15, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

BLPPROD nomination critiera

Sorry if my reversion (just now) comes off as edit warring, I figured a note here might be nicer. The BLPPROD nomination criteria are kinda wacky, literally any link that says something about the subject of the article is sufficient to prevent a valid nomination under BLPPROD. The relevant text is at WP:BLPPROD#Nominating. If you can get consensus to strengthen that language, I'd be in favor of that, but as far as I know, that has proven impossible so far. The result is admittedly... a bit odd, at best. Have a great weekend. --joe deckertalk to me 14:54, 16 July 2011 (UTC)


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Speedy deletion declined: Whitney Jones

Hello Bgwhite. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of Whitney Jones, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: That she's played in pro tennis tournaments and has a (perfunctuary) page on the WTA site would indicate importance. Needs to go to AfD if required. G4 doesn't apply, hasn't been to AfD that I can find. Thank you. GedUK  07:31, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

She was speedily deleted on July 7. She failed WP:NTENNIS... She never won a tournament. She still fails the same criteria. The editor, User talk:Saihimesh, that created this article is creating more non-notable tennis players. He has already been warned on his talk page. I'm in contact with Sphilbrick and we will be doing a mass deletion this week of the other players. I'll just add Whitney Jones to the list. Bgwhite (talk) 07:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, I know she was speedy deleted, but G4 only applies to deletion discussions, in this case AfD. She may well fail NTENNIS, but that criteria doesn't apply for CSD, which is a lower threshold. If it gets deleted at AfD, which seems likely, and then gets recreated, G4 will apply. Hope that clarifies. GedUK  07:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I posted to BGwhite, (before seeing this discussion), that I agreed with your CSD decline. It was not eligible for G4. While I see User:Bgwhite has indicated an intention to include her in the group that may get deleted shortly, I've urged that she be handled separately, simply because the history is different, and it would make sense to go through AfD. For the others, I've learned that the ITF automatically creates a page for anyone who plays in any qualifying tournament, whatever level. Winning some of the ITF titles doesn't even meet NTENNIS, but I agree with you that has someone won one of the non-qualifying titles, it should go to AfD rather than CSD. However, merely playing in a tournament and winning an odd match here or there is a long way form winning a title, so I think those with merely a match win are not even reaching the importance hurdle. As one specific example, Alizé Lim—this player has an ATF page. It has her name, DOB and nothing else. This isn't an assertion of importance.--SPhilbrickT 11:20, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
My view is that someone who has played in a grand slam tournament has an indication of importance; similarly, Jones played in a notable professional tournament, as far as I can tell as a pro (hence the WTA page), so A7 wouldn't apply to either. But importance is always a criterion that comes down to the individual admin. GedUK  13:28, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I think we are largely on the same page. I'm not sure why grand slam was mentioned. I agree that simply playing in a grand slam qualifies as notable, but that doesn't apply to anyone being discussed. I agree that winning a notable Tournament, such as the 2007 Sunfeast Open – Doubles would qualify as notable. but Jones, didn't win. Nor was she invited as a main draw, she made it as an alternate. (As an aside, it isn't perfectly clear that the 2007 Sunfeast Open – Doubles is notable; it has no references, so I don't know how it would fair in an AfD. As mentioned, I think it is wise to pursue Jones at AfD, just because there are some reasonable questions.
I trust it is clear that merely competing in a notable event does not confer notability. To take an extreme example, I've competed in the Boston Marathon but that doesn't make ne notable. As I said, that's an extreme example; however, we don't conclude that every actor in every notable film is notable, nor do we confer notability on every bicyclist in a just barely notable event. At the other extreme, we have concluded that everyone making identified major league baseball teams is notable. Tennis is neither the Boston Marathon (where most participants are non-notable) nor MLB, where all are notable. And of course, CSD is about importance, a lower hurdle than notable.--SPhilbrickT 14:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I mentioned the slam only because Lim played in the French doubles. I agree that competing in a sporting event doesn't confer notability, but may be an indication of importance; it would depend on the event. I think a professional tournament that involves some sort of qualification probably is. GedUK  14:08, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, missed that, but she competed as a wildcard entry. That said, the wording says "lists of the wildcard awardees entering in the main draws", so she technically qualifies. I bet that isn't what was meant, but I guess she should be handled as a AfD as well.--SPhilbrickT 14:19, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Ironically, I think our rules for notability are too strong, and I would support relaxing them a bit, but until they are changed, I'm trying my best to make determinations based upon the rules.--SPhilbrickT 14:21, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I personally think if you play in a grand slam, you're notable, but that's just my view. I'm certain it's an indication sufficient for A7, as I am that a professional player who's played in a (apparently) notable tournament is enough for A7. Anyway, the AfDs are open now, and I suspect they'll be deleted under NTENNIS. GedUK  11:25, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Howard Markel

You added the persondata material. Did you want to add any substantive material? Bearian (talk) 20:13, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Nope... just passing thru. I'm going thru my daily routine of adding listas/defaultsort to articles and fixing anything I find along the way. Bgwhite (talk) 20:18, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Minor Barnstar.png The Minor Barnstar
For your Wiki-gnomish fixing of Howard Markel. Bearian (talk) 20:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Wat'ul Chatel

You put this - DEFAULTSORT:Watul Chatel in one of my articles. Can you tell me what is the purpose of this? I noted you removed an apostrophe in the king's name. - Michelle, My talk

DEFAULTSORT on articles and "listas" on talk pages show how the article and talk pages should be sorted in categories. For names, it usually follows surname, first name. However, there are a ton of different customs around the world. China and Vietnam have opposite naming convention of the west. Burmese and Maylasian people have no surname. Icelandic people use a patronymic system where their "last name" is from their father. Old Scandinavian, old Celtic, old Russian and some old Arabic names follow the same pattern. So, there are all sorts of different naming conventions and DEFAULTSORT and listas tells how that page should be sorted. There are bots out there that does the default surname, first name. So if a name is different, manually adding it before a bot gets to it is important. As for removing the apostrophe,hyphens or periods are the only allowed punctuation. So, O'Brien becomes OBrien. WP:NAMESORT and WP:SORTKEY has more information. Bgwhite (talk) 07:44, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Ta has not got a cite or reference in sight - that would bother me more than the bloody nineteenth century incestuous lot of anglo-legal-family-gordian-knot people who ran WA type stubs - but hey - each to their own and keep up the good work! SatuSuro 07:14, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

wash your mouth out  :) - wp western australia has the best group of eds for a state group cf to the rest of the country - and you must be in an isolated dump box with no media somewhere - we're the one thing between australia going down the gurgler and staying afloat in this current world economic crisis SatuSuro 08:20, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorting "Master"s

Please NB, "Master X" is normally sorted under M not X . Thanks Johnbod (talk) 20:58, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

What does "NB" mean? What article are you referring to on "Master X". It depends on the name on how it is sorted. If Master is an honorific title, it is sorted under X. If "Master X" is a name of a performer, then it sorted under M. Sometimes it is not really clear if it is honorific or performer. Bgwhite (talk) 21:04, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
"Nota bene". For historic artists, "Master" is only used where the full or actual name is not known. They should always be sorted under "M". You did Master E. S. correctly, but Master Bertram incorrectly.‎ Johnbod (talk) 21:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Please review

Hello,Bgwhite,I invite you to give your opinion to discussion article Ehsan Sehgal,please take a look thoroughly at all discussions and help to consider the matter in fair way.You are a good and experienced editor,I hope you will spare the time to review it compeletly.Please visit my talk page,and leave your review.God bless you. Thanks.Ehsan Sehgal (talk) 05:37, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


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About Koljo Karagiosov AfD... hmm

Hi Bgwhite, and thanks for the message!
Yep, I think I could have expressed myself a whole lot better in the AfD nomination. What I should have said was something along the lines of

Although this article was only created 3 minutes ago, I've been looking into this matter for a lot longer that that. It seems to be one of a number of recently created articles by the same editor. They all appear to be very similar in content, and only have mentions on the interwebs to Wikipedia mirrors and the German language Wikipedia, and no corresponding article on the Bulgarian language Wikipedia It would appear to me somewhat odd that, though they are about Bulgarian people, there is no Cyrillic text or references in Bulgarian in the articles, until I mentioned this to the articles' creator. There also appear to be I've nominated this one for deletion as a "test case" for that apparent "walled garden" of articles...

and so on. I agree, the nomination does appear to be both bite-y and pointy. But as you have already pointed out, there does appear to be some shenanigans going on here. The Hadji Nikoli article for example has an external link to "Hadji Nikoli Inn", which has no mention of the historical person at all. Search engine optimization perhaps?
--Shirt58 (talk) 10:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion contested: Stefan Nedev Karagiosov

Hello Bgwhite. I am just letting you know that I contested the speedy deletion of Stefan Nedev Karagiosov, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: Not a hoax, needs work, but the article from the foreign wikipedia is a rough translation of this article. Thank you. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 12:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

and I remind you that speedy is for blatant hoaxes only. A blatant hoax is one impossible on the face of it, or totally absurd, or a copy of a famous person's article with the name changed to an unknown. DGG ( talk ) 19:34, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
BTW, you mentioned you had difficulty with G translate. It worked fine for me, tho it translates only up to a certain limit of words. To go beyond that, just past the untranslated part in a new window & ask for a translation. If you need the translation emailed, ask me. DGG ( talk ) 19:36, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
I didn't put up the articles for speedy deletion. Another editor added the tags. I just re-added the tag after an IP address (It's the creator's IP) removed them. Also re-added AfD tags the IP also removed. I'm not an administrator and I don't feel comfortable removing speedy delete tags.
I was unable to translate the references and not external links. This is an example. Please tell me how to translate this in Google translate. Bgwhite (talk) 20:46, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
Steven, DGG, and Phil, if there is a failure of good faith and WP:CLUE here, then that failure is mine, and mine only. BgW was simply tidying up my arguably AGF-less and possibly tendentious CSD nominations. No opprobrium to BgW is due here. --Shirt58 (talk) 10:55, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Europeaninzing the sort order of individuals with Arabic names

I saw that you have been Europeanizing the sort order of articles about individuals with Arabic names [1]. Your edit summary says your edit is authorized by WP:NAMESORT.

May I request you refrain from Europeanizing the sortkeys of individuals who don`t have European names, at least until the issue I raised in this discussion, in Wikipedia talk:Categorization of people are resolved?

Thanks! Geo Swan (talk) 20:18, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Nope, I won't stop because you are assuming. WP:NAMESORT is the generic template to use when sorting names. There is no "template" for Arabic names. WP:NAMESORT doesn't take into account all the differing style of names. I follow what the prevailing standards are for the time period the name is from and what region. So, I don't sort all names, including Arabic names, the same way. I left information on what "consensus" is at Wikipedia_talk:Categorization_of_people#Arabic names. Also note, "consensus" is also the way all the different Society of Indexers and the Chicago Manual of Style follows.
All Saudi Arabian names except for royalty now have family names, just like western names. This is via a decree by the Saudi Ministry of Interior in 2008. The decree rid of people having a tribal surname.
Also if you see "AWB" in the summary, that means AWB is being used manually. Bots leave the "AWB" out.
I did do a mistake with Mishal Awad Sayaf Alhabiri's name. Some stupid CIA official combined his last name of al-Habiri into Alhabiri. Sorry, I'm not used to seeing "Al" combined with the name. The last name should have been sorted on Habiri. Bgwhite (talk) 23:26, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

South Sudan Names

I just found the following rule, which probably also applies to names in northern Uganda and Kenya, maybe other places: "Most southerners' names include their "proper" name first, their father's name second, and their grandfather's name last. For example, to refer to commander Riek Machar Teny Dhurgon as "Machar" is to refer to that commander's father... Note: The names are listed alphabetically by second name (underlined), unless the person is known by another name".[2]. Books that mention Riek Machar tend to say "Riek did this" or "Riek Machar did this" but never "Machar did this".

If my name were constructed this way it would be "Andrew Charles William". "Charles did this" would make no sense when talking about something I did - that is my father's name. Once I got checked at Heathrow coming from Malaysia. My baggage tag said "Mr. Andy", which is what I was called at the office in Malaysia and rather liked, but the customs guy was not amused. It is all very confusing. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:38, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

A cupcake for you!

Choco-Nut Bake with Meringue Top cropped.jpg Hello! I hope you enjoy this tasty treat as a friendly greeting from a fellow Wikipedian SwisterTwister talk 06:40, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Happy to help

Glad to help you with your comedy needs!

See, for example: Morris Childs.

Carrite (talk) 15:31, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


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Assassin'S Creed (talk) 01:37, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Claes-Göran Granqvist page is not orphan anymore, orphan comment will be be removed

Hi, thanks for pointing the "orphanity" of the Claes-Göran Granqvist page out. Now the page is linked by 5 other pages: Nanoparticles, Peter Heszler, Fluctuation-Enhanced Sensing, etc. According to the wiki rules already 3 links are enough to not call a page orphan thus I will remove the "orphan" comment. Rubmum (talk) 11:34, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Kindness Barnstar Hires.png The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
Your explanations on Assassin's Creed's talk page are careful and detailed... excellent help for a newbie editor. LadyofShalott 21:16, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Required additional citations were added for C.G. Granqvist

Please see the page after significant expansions by citations from Science Citation Index (source mentioned there), additional fresh book and more data from his fresh CV. Also, links to his institutes showing that he is the Head of Division of Solid State Physics. Now I will remove the call for more citations because the page has now sufficient. Thanks, Rubmum (talk) 12:20, 11 August 2011 (UTC)


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Assassin'S Creed (talk) 12:35, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Paraguayan ministers

Thanks, I don't know how to create a template. Usually that's fixed by someone else after I've done it this way. I'm hoping to create pages for all ministers from South America, though I wish I could find more info about them...That's not easy, on google at least...That's insane: they are Ministers of a country!Zigzig20s (talk) 07:03, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

So feel free to expand their pages if you can. I'm hoping others will. I don't speak Spanish that well, so I'm sure there's more info out there, but google translate gets tedious.Zigzig20s (talk) 07:03, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes, this is very strange.Zigzig20s (talk) 15:18, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
I've updated the template, and I'll try to add it to the Ministers pages. But there is some info missing. I don't have the dates for all the ministries, and there are ministers prior to 2011 that are missing. A work in progress, I suppose.Zigzig20s (talk) 03:17, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

good stuff

I always see your moniker showing up and doing good things - wp doesnt have enough gnomes these days - keep at it! SatuSuro 02:07, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

so much to learn

Thank you for your comments on the talk page, I have many questions. is it incorrect to have a "off the record" talk via email. How does one do that?

in short I have created a project page with a sub-project page explaining our goals and a list of artists we will be editing and or creating

I would greatly appreciate your help Drkup (talk) 20:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I saw your project pages, which is how I figured everything out with all the new Israeli artists articles. Thank you for that as it saved me alot of time figuring things out and it also piqued my interest into what you and Ndreiss are doing. It is perfectly fine to email me for anything. On my talk page, goto the left column where it says "Toolbox". There is an option under Toolboox to "E-mail this user". Please do not hesitate to contact me for anything. Bgwhite (talk) 22:36, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Mordechai Ardon (Bornstein)


You tagged the article Mordechai Ardon (Bornstein) for speedy deletion, because an article about the same person already exists. Even though this is true, it would be better to tag it for merging rather than speedy deletion. The deleting administrator didn't notice that the new article has a whole paragraph that doesn't appear in the existing article.

The person who created the article contacted me about this and i helped sort it out, but it could also be someone else who can contribute useful information, but doesn't know anyone. Such speedy deletion scares off new contributors. Please be more careful about it next time. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 21:38, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you look at the editor's talk page next time before accusations. Her fellow contributor of Israeli museum's pointed this out to her. (same editor did the talk message above this one) I also left a detailed message about some of her articles and in invitation for her to contact me. Bgwhite (talk) 22:25, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
I saw the discussions. Apparently, the people didn't completely understand it.
A speedy deletion template must only be placed on articles that must be deleted beyond any doubt. This was not the case here. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 06:49, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Let's see... two articles about the same person. The new one contains a couple of sentences of new info that is easily put into the other. Why a couple of sentence? Because User:Drkup had already merged the majority of the info. Why easily, because everything in the new article comes from one source... the same source she used to create around 10 new articles with. She was given two different talk discussions about it before it was deleted. She was given instructions to contact me if they she had questions. Info already merged? Check. User contacted? Check. What more to do? Sorry, but the new article was deleted because it was beyond any doubt. Bgwhite (talk) 06:57, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
The info was not merged. Much more than "a couple of sentences".
What you may not know is that the user asked me for additional help even though you bothered to explain what you did. It seems that you realize that editing Wikipedia is hard for new users, but you don't realize how hard. In particular, templates, such as {{Uw-csd-a10}} are not helpful: they save you time, but they badly confuse users. Please be more careful when using them. Deletion doesn't have to be that speedy. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 07:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Egads. Which is why I wrote a whole new section beyond what the template said and pointed them to another long section I wrote for the compadre. Guess nothing will please you. Bgwhite (talk) 07:53, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
I saw it and it is good. But putting a speedy deletion template on an article that was not yet merged is not good. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:13, 14 August 2011 (UTC)


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Thank you.

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Hi Bgwhite, yes I would most certainly appreciate if you could run this AWB software on these two articles in particular - The Birthday Massacre and A Primitive Evolution, Musical groups that I've been a fan of for a long time. Im new to editing wiki's, only a week or so of editing, so im sort of just practicing on these band wiki's for now while I get the hang of the markup language, be forwarned that these articles are hidously bad on the double citations and formatting. Im just trying to get a bunch of relevent info in first, then plan to go back later and purge and replace with better citations. Thanks for the great link checker! Alright, no deadlinks, well thats a plus at least. Jason (talk) 07:42, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Hey, thanks a lot! I'm starting to get the hang of this - and starting to kinda get addicted to it too, hehe! Have a great night. Jason (talk) 08:07, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Hi Bgwhite, if you have a moment, would you mind running this software on this article too? Martin Streek. I added a bunch of citations and tried to whip this article into better shape, but its hard to not be messy while doing this, ya know? Jason (talk) 23:18, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Heroes in Hell

Could I borrow you if you aren't too busy. We're having some fun on the Heroes in Hell article, and on the discussion page. Some assistance from someone who isn't involved would be useful. UrbanTerrorist (talk) 04:18, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Minor Barnstar Hires.png The Minor barnstar
For your tireless namesorting with AWB. Atomician (talk) 10:09, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi again

can you please help me capitalize Nahum tevet's lat name thanks (Drkup(IMJ) (talk) 19:59, 16 August 2011 (UTC))

AfD of american footballers

Hello. Thanks for taking an interest in this AfD situation. Based on my interpretation of Wikipedia:NSPORTS#American_football.2FCanadian_football, a player must play a game in the NFL (or similar top professional league) first before they are considered notable enough for an article. Just making an NFL roster without playing a regular season game first does not appear to satisfy the requirement. I did notice some of the players I tagged did in fact make their official debuts though so those should be kept. Vanadus (talk | contribs) 02:09, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Based on other sports, I would agree with you that making the roster, but not playing a game would not make you presumed notable. However, pre-season games do not count, only regular season. So, any undrafted rookies are not presumed notable yet and any you have tagged are still not yet presumed notable. Bgwhite (talk) 02:39, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
I just added keep to a few of them and wanted to let you know also that regardless of what the rules may say about playing a game If he was signed this year then he should be playing very soon. I think its a huge waste of time to delete the article based on him not yet playing a game and then turn around and recreate it a month later. I think we should give it some time and see if he doesn't play a game this season. I don't think that this is what the guidelines had in mind when they wrote it saying that players who haven't played a game aren't noteworthy. --Kumioko (talk) 02:49, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
This started by me telling Vanadus to stop sending recently signed free-agents to AfD because they may actually play in the NFL. So, wait till the start of the season to do any other AfDs. So, I agree with you. Point I was trying to make above is that it's not the start of the season, so nobody is of yet "presumed" to be notable. Of course all of this is "presumed" nobility. They could be notable for all the press they received in College. I'd think a starting 1-A quarterback could easily meet GNG. He He... a Miami U player is probably presumed to be notable if they received over $10,000 for attending. Bgwhite (talk) 06:31, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Lilian Klapisch

Lillian Klapisch (see second L in first name) there are two pages one is misplessed (can you please merge them) Please dont give up on me I am getting better (I hope) (Drkup(IMJ) (talk) 19:22, 17 August 2011 (UTC))

Johanna Beisteiner

Dear Bgwhite, On July 31 you rated my article about the Austrian guitarist Johanna Beisteiner as Stub-Class. Today I added some more detailed information, fotos and references to this article. I think it is clearly better now. Could you please check the new version, tell me your opinion and rate it again? Best regards,--Culturawiki (talk) 12:36, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Looks like somebody beat me to it. I did check the article for errors. Looking much better now. Bgwhite (talk) 07:35, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Dear Bgwhite, Thank you for your message! --Culturawiki (talk) 08:58, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

correct tagging of images

I am beginning to work on images, I was told that the first ones I uploads are not properly tagged. The images were found online at auction houses so I am not sure what the correct way to tag them. I put in the name of the auction house. Thanks (Drkup(IMJ) (talk) 20:52, 18 August 2011 (UTC))

"(diff | hist) . . User talk:Drkup(IMJ)‎; 20:33 . . (+1,647) . . Eeekster (talk | contribs) (Notification: tagging for deletion of File:Moshe Murro 8.JPG. (TW)) (diff | hist) . . File:Photograph of Moshe Moro.jpg‎; 20:13 . . (+41) . . Eeekster (talk | contribs) (This file is up for deletion, per CSD F11 (no permission). (TW)) (diff | hist) . . File:Moshe Murro - Copper plates.jpg‎; 20:13 . . (+41) . . Eeekster (talk | contribs) (This file is up for deletion, per CSD F11 (no permission). (TW)) "

Copyright© Kedem Auctions, All rights reserved. 20 Beit Ha-Defus St., Jerusalem 95483, Israel. Tel.: (972)-77-5140223, Fax: (972)-77-5140167 Email: this is the URL [3]I can call them to ask permission to use images or i can note that the rights are theirs, whatever you suggest (BTW if i write on my page how can i tell you that i wrote their, or shoudl i write on your page?) (Drkup(IMJ) (talk) 14:11, 19 August 2011 (UTC))

Citation Style variation

Hey Bgwhite, I wondered if I could get your opinion on something else im coming across. I've been reading Wikipedia:CITEVAR#Style_variation and Wikipedia:CITET and noticed that some articles use citations that break apart each field(s) into a new line, like this:

{{Cite book 
  | last = Mumford
  | first = David
  | authorlink = David Mumford
  | title = The Red Book of Varieties and Schemes
  | publisher = [[Springer Science+Business Media|Springer-Verlag]]
  | series = Lecture Notes in Mathematics
  | volume = 1358
  | edition = 2nd expanded
  | location = Berlin
  | date = 1999
  | page = 198
  | doi = 10.1007/b62130
  | isbn = 354063293X
  | mr = 1748380
  | zbl = 0945.14001 }}

Then other times I come across articles that mesh the fields all together into one line, like this:

{{Cite book | last = Mumford| first = David| authorlink = David Mumford| title = The Red Book of Varieties and Schemes| publisher = 
[[Springer Science+Business Media|Springer-Verlag]]| series = Lecture Notes in Mathematics| volume = 1358| 
edition = 2nd expanded| location = Berlin| date = 1999| page = 198| doi = 10.1007/b62130| isbn = 354063293X| mr = 1748380| zbl = 0945.14001 }}

So I'm just wondering what's the best practice to get into? What's your opinion of these different style layouts? Just preference? I find myself preferring to concatenate everything into one line so that the article isn't so lengthy with vertical scrolling - but I do realize that editors, without any background in programming, might be scared to edit the block of code in the second example. Any thoughts or references you can point me to? Jason (talk) 04:27, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Either one is perfectly acceptable. I think around 95% of the articles I see use the second one. It is probably 100% of the articles I see that has more than 10 citations... The vertical scroll does gets out of hand. Bgwhite (talk) 06:38, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
I think I'll just go with whatever the formatting of the article uses then, I prefer consistency over anything. Would be nice if Wikipedia software developers could build in a new feature to "hide" citations, that would ease editing the text for grammar/spelling/etc. Made some significant edits on Mark Pesce that could use some checking. Jason (talk) 16:25, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree about consistency of existing styles. But when I write a new article I always use list-defined references, which makes for much easier reading of the article text, as all of the citation info is clumped together at the end. In this case, it doesn't matter much whether you use the vertical or the compressed form of the cite, since it's separated from the article text. For info, see WP:Cite#List-defined references. MANdARAX  XAЯAbИAM 21:45, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes, im noticing this too. I first use list-defined to enter my references and then delete the carriage returns when im finished. Anyway, It should be easy enough to write software to format if anybody ever wanted to standardize it. I dont think it matters much, just thinking about people who want to edit grammar or punctuation because its a little hard to navigate with all the code. I wish they had a "hide-code" feature. (that should be an easy enough feature to implement too) Jason (talk) 06:03, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Previous deletion of Milroy Goes ?

You tagged Milroy Goes for a speedy deletion because it had already been Afd. If it was deleted after a previous discussion, the template on the article doesn't link to that discussion. Could you please tell me where is was? Cloveapple (talk) 21:00, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Milroy goes Good point... Wonder why Twinkle doesn't have an option to add the previous discussion. I need to look up why? Bgwhite (talk) 21:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. I thought the tag was an error at first. It looks like the article has been improved a tiny bit, since it now has one independent newspaper source buried in the text. But honestly the source is so bad it's not worth contesting! :-) Cloveapple (talk) 21:14, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

BG19 bot edit summaries

Could you please take a look at Wikipedia:Bot owners' noticeboard#General notice to bot owners about edit summaries and see if the suggestions might apply to your bot? Feel free to add your own suggestions and comments there too. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 21:00, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Jonathan Hope

Can you tell me why you have placed a deletion on the above's page and who placed ridiculous comments? Thanks Butterfly35 (talk) 22:04, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean about "ridiculous comments". I nominated the article for deletion (AfD) because the lack of reliable sources about Mr. Hope in web searches. Please see WP:SOURCES about what constitutes as a reliable source. There are times when a person is "presumed" notable, such as a footballer playing in the English premier league. A sports agent doesn't have any presumed nobility, so they must have, "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." see WP:GNG. Significant coverage means that "sources address the subject directly in detail". The sources given in the article were about the players Mr. Hope represents with only a sentence or two about Mr. Hope. Bgwhite (talk) 22:20, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Hey Bg, You take a lot of heat on your page eh? The notability issue is what I suspect people get most fumed about; would I be correct in that assumption? Jason (talk) 06:09, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
I see all the new articles that were tagged as biographies that day and made it past the editors looking for blatant hoaxes, articles that don't make sense or other obvious problems. (Wikipedia:New pages patrol) As I add meta-data to the articles (fill out Biography banner, DEFAULTSORT, persondata, etc) I take a quick look at the articles. Some of them don't feel right, have no references or are already put up for as an Article for Deletion (WP:AFD) and I add them to my list to look at later. Some of the articles on the list end up perfectly fine. Others have nobility issues as I couldn't find reliable references and are not presumed notable. The ones with problems I put up for deletion via Wikipedia:Proposed deletion and/or AfD. The ones other editors already put up for deletion, I go over them and put in my opinion on if they should stay or go. Sometimes it can get nasty and vicious... I've been ridiculed, called names, etc. The editors who do Wikipedia:Recent changes patrol that check for vandalism have it much worse...If you have no problem to vandalize, you then have no problem to vandalize user pages or call you some choice words. There are alot of different "jobs" on Wikipedia which makes it easy to find your place. Some like writing detailed articles, creating new short articles (sports players mostly), love reviewing articles or being a wikignome like me. Bgwhite (talk) 07:07, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
It's a shame Wikipedia couldn't foresee these issues back in 2001. There are so many useless articles here and I totally agree with setting a high standard and making Wikipedia more about knowledge and information rather then incoherent stubs. There's an interesting lecture by Wales on Youtube(called The Future of Free Culture, at 9:40), where he shows statistics of articles related by language and categories. English is pretty balanced but Japanese has something like 80% articles related to pop culture. I know that Wales has since created Wikia, not to mention the related Wikimedia projects, as an effort to separate these different types of knowledge, so it will be interesting to see if things get better or worse over time. I think a big issue too is that Google seems to favor Wikipedia in it's search results, so people might be more vigilant or aggressive about what sort of data shows up here. I can say I've only been editing articles for 2 weeks but my level of understanding is now night and day. I suspect most vandals don't really understand what Wikipedia is, although I could be wrong about that. Sometimes people are just plain old pricks. :-) Jason (talk) 21:53, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Re: John Barnes

I wasn't aware I removed the PROD, what I was doing was removing the {{stub}} from the top of the page to the bottom so I could stub sort. I suppose I must've removed it without intention. Have a good day, SwisterTwister talk 06:33, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Vietnamese names

I don't see anyone else sorting Vietnamese names the way you do. Just use the same name order as in the article title. That's the way books are indexed.[4] Kauffner (talk) 08:55, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

When I looked around to see how to sort Vietnamese names, I saw the way I was sorting the most often when people manually entered the sort. I responded at Wikipedia talk:Categorization of people‎. Bgwhite (talk) 22:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Dmitri Tymoczko

Hi there,

What gives you the impression that User:Princeton Music might have a COI on the Dmitri Tymoczko article? --Slashme (talk) 15:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

That Mr. Tymoczko works in the Princeton Music Department as an Associate Professor of Music. Bgwhite (talk) 22:38, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Answering your question

We did not do this work; it is nice to see others hard at work as well. I took off a few days so I have been quiet. How do you see the new items as the work is being done? Is there a site with the new pages that you check daily? (Drkup(IMJ) (talk) 20:55, 31 August 2011 (UTC))