User talk:Jhall1

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Mr Jeacocke[edit]

The redlink in Fender was annoying me a little, so I created Alfred Jeacocke and managed to get in two juicy scandalous tales, both concerning PGH of course. Feel free to add or tweak anything I've missed, as Surrey is not my strong point. Though I have got hold of Lemmon's Surrey history as you can never have too many cricket books... Sarastro1 (talk) 01:24, 13 January 2013 (UTC)


I thought that as well, but there is literally nothing about that side of his writing in any of the sources to which I have access. I'll do another trawl, but I'm not confident. If push came to shove, I'd take that out as we have no information on it. Sarastro1 (talk) 10:35, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Good thinking. I've left a note there, more in hope than expectation. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:01, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


I've not checked Barclay's yet, but as you may have gathered, I picked up a cheap copy for myself, so I can have a look there. But I'd be grateful if you could check Thompson for anything in there. Thanks! Sarastro1 (talk) 17:35, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Much obliged for that. I don't suppose you have a page reference for each quote? Sarastro1 (talk) 20:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
To be honest, the original article was cribbed wholesale from one of his obituaries (either the Cricketer or Wisden, I can't remember); it was re-worded, but the stories and content were almost identical. So maybe the obituary writer used Thompson. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Spot on with Weigall. I didn't name him in the article on the grounds of obscurity and as he wasn't exactly a top-level critic! Sarastro1 (talk) 17:56, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Surrey Club cricketers[edit]

Hello! I hope to get round to creating it, however each time I've googled "Surrey Club cricket" it brings up the obvious result of Surrey CCC :/ I don't want to create a pointless stub which just mentions how many first-class matches it played, some background would be nice! I think it has enough potential and notability to exist independently of the Surrey county cricket teams article :) Howzat?Out!Out!Out! (talk) 15:19, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

I've always imagined it as a posh gentlemen's club of some sort! I'll drop BlackJack a line :) Howzat?Out!Out!Out! (talk) 21:32, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Hi John. I've replied to AA about the Surrey Club on my talk page but my investigation inevitably brought up the enigmatic "Mr Houghton" who was engaged by Montpelier Cricket Club in 1845 to create The Oval. I know nothing else about this gentleman, not even his first name. Do you have any info about him in books about Surrey? Thanks. ----Jack | talk page 06:40, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

It is possible that the W. Houghton in this scorecard is the same man? ----Jack | talk page 06:44, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I've managed to find something about Mr Houghton in David Lemmon's excellent The History of Surrey County Cricket Club (see Surrey County Cricket Club Bibliography section for full citation details). Since the man's initial matches, it's almost certainly the chap in the scorecard. "From the outset The Oval was managed by W. Houghton, a chemist from Brixton Hill, who had been President of the Montpelier Club. In the initial euphoria his management had been accepted as giving all that could be desired, but by the beginning of the 1849 season, with the club £70 in debt, it was apparent that all was not well and there was disagreement between the management and the Club itself".(p18) "Hon Frederick Ponsonby forwarded the idea that the Club's financial crisis... could be solved if six memberts were allowed to take out life-membership at £12 each. The idea was eagerly accepted... Houghton, however, was antagonistic to the Club, and he was conducting affairs in a way that many found offensive. He staged walking matches, poultry shows and other events which lowered the character of the ground and which were not to the liking of those living close by... There were moves afoot to build on The Oval, and a bill was prepared by the solicitor of the Duchy of Cornwall to that effect. It was Prince Albert, acting for the young Prince of Wales, who intervened, and The Oval was saved... John Burrup... had succeeded Denison as secretary in 1848... He realised that the only way in which Surrey cricket could survive was to rid itself of the association with Houghton... Under his direction the executive resolved to play no more matches at The Oval and began negotiations for a ground near Coldharbour Lane, Brixton. Houghton realised he was beaten and was glad to come to terms. He handed over the lease to C. H. Hoare, A. Marshall and Henry Mortimer, acting on behalf of the Surrey County Club who obtained a new agreement for 21 years. This dated from 1855..."(p19) There's no mention of the "Surrey Club", but I'm wondering if Houghton might have set that up as a rival to Surrey CCC. However since it started in 1846, when apparently all was still sweetness and light between him and SCCC, probably not. JH (talk page) 09:40, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
That's really interesting. Trouble and strife. For a moment there, I thought I was reading about Yorkshire again! ----Jack | talk page 11:49, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I've now also looked up Houghton in Nick Yapp's A History of the Foster's Oval (Pelham Books, 1990, ISBN 0-7207-1925-9). His account is substantially the same as Lemmon's, but he tells us that Houghton's first name was William and that he was the Treasurer of Surrey CCC when the club was founded.(p10) He also says that the first match to be played on the Oval, on 13 May 1845, was between W. Fould's XI and W. Houghton's XI, with the first game there involving the Montpelier Club being against Clapton on 17 July. He gives the scorecard of the latter match from Lillywhite's Cricket Scores and Biographies of Celebrated Cricketers and quotes ot as saying "This is, it is believed, the first match that ever took place on Kennington Oval. The extent of the ground is 10 acres, and, as the name implies, oval in shape... during the winter of 1844-5 it was arranged that the Montpelier Club should remove to the Oval, and the Club very generously gave a large sum of money from their funds to enable the new proprietor make the new ground good for cricket by laying down with turf about 4 acres in the centre..."(p39) There's obviously material there that could be used to extend the history sections of the Surrey CCC and Oval articles as well as that on the Montpelier Club. JH (talk page) 17:32, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── User:CDTPP gave me these links including one fascinating photo from 1860: Lambeth and [ British history]. As I said to him, I never thought the gasworks were that old. ----Jack | talk page 18:30, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

This scorecard from CricketArchive is the 17 July 1745 game and seems to be the earliest that CA have from The Oval. They don't have the 13 May game in their list so it looks as if no scorecard has survived. ----Jack | talk page 18:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I'd spotted those links from User:CDTPP on your Talk page. Fascinating stuff. I suspect you're right about the earlier scorecard not having survived. Yapp gives the later scorecard but not the earlier one. From what he quotes from Lillywhite, it seems they weren't even aware that the earlier match had taken place. JH (talk page) 18:50, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
No scorecard seen yet, but a search of the online British Newspaper Library archives has found the following paragraph published a few days after the 13 May match - from The [London] Standard, Monday 19 May 1845 page 3 "THE SURREY GROUND, KENNINGTON The new cricket ground, in the Oval, was opened on Tuesday with a day's play between two eleven's chosen from the members of the Montpelier Club. The day was unfavourable, but the play was very good. We may take this opportunity of stating, by way of contradiction to the statements which have appeared in some other journals, that this ground will be appropriated alone to the purposes of cricket." RossRSmith (talk) 09:49, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


Good to know, thanks. I haven't got round to getting it yet, but will do so very shortly. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:34, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


It may not all make sense for a day or two. I'm trying to tidy it up to take to FAC. I'm more or less happy with the length (a few more words off wouldn't hurt with the two forked articles now) but I need to make sure it does him justice as a batsman and (for want of a better word) a "force" in cricket. I've a few sources to add to the article, and then should be ready. I'll take out that "lacks flamboyance" as I've just realised it's a load of rubbish anyway. (Forgive me if I've told you this one, but George Macaulay, not exactly a lover of batsmen, once pretty much applauded a shot that Hobbs hit off him, and praised him to the heavens whenever he hit a good shot) Sarastro1 (talk) 11:33, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Hopefully a little clearer now. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:35, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay. Real life rather hectic at the moment. On that 1919 match (it was actually his benefit game, and our old mate Jack Crawford rather than Knight), I'm not sure it is justified in the main article, as it hardly ranks with his performances in 1925, or against Australia in 1911-12, 1926 or 1927-28, or South Africa in 1909. But it is in the "later life" article, where I think it fits more comfortably. I've reworked large chunks now, and as I can't think what else to do, I'm heading for PR with a view to FA in the not-too-distant future. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:42, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Actually, on the other Jack, I recently got hold of some old Wisden reprints, and one of the early 1920s ones mentions that Crawford wasn't available as he was up north somewhere, but it rather unfortunately doesn't say why, and just laments his unavailability. I must add it to the article at some point. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:59, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


Actually this one was Blackjack's, and he did a really good job on it. But I've reverted, and cited some OR of my own as I've found a source which gives his baptism date two months before our IP suggests he was born. Thanks for the heads up, it was not on my watchlist but I've added it now. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:55, 3 May 2013 (UTC)


Regarding Mahmood, the English flag is just for simplicity as to explain in the infobox would be quite a palava, wouldn't it! I know it doesn't mean much, but on the IPL pages, he's listed as English. As for Smith, I presumed he was out for the rest of the season, and assuming like most o/s players, they don't return after one season? The Madras (talk) 08:11, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah! Well I apologise, I didn't know that, I'll go and put him back in then. The Madras (talk) 08:37, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
Mahmood - would it be better to put Pakistan as the nationality and "English qualified" in the notes? The Madras (talk) 09:27, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Wrong Shepherd![edit]

It was Don of Glamorgan who played for the Players, not David. Silly me.......! Thanks for spotting it. :-) ----Jack | talk page 22:47, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Jack Crawford, Part 94...[edit]

I don't know if you have access to the British Library Newspaper Archive, but I was doing some digging there on young Jack (I still hope to go for FA at some point if I can dig out a little more information and tidy it up a little more) and found, in a regional newspaper, complete copies of the 1909 correspondence between Crawford and Alverstone. I've also pinned down some more career details which I will add: he went to New Zealand as a cricket coach and then was a master at Repton when he returned to England, hence the "up North" reference in Wisden I assume. If you are interested in the letters (I doubt much of that will make it into the article), I can email you a copy. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Email sent with newspaper file attached. Hopefully... Sarastro1 (talk) 21:05, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Cranleigh -Winterfold House[edit]

Thanks for tidying up my contribution to Cranleigh -the Winterfold House article looks much better where you put it. As a cricket enthusiast have a look at EHD Sewell a page I put together recently - you may have a contribution. Sewell also played rugby. My preferred winter game. Kind regards Long Ben Every (talk) 15:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


Thank you, thank you! I wanted to tell them myself, but had grown too weary of the diverse cultures of Ashes pundits! Would you prefer a beer, or a cookie? Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 09:11, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Sadly I don't like beer, so I'll opt for the cookie. :) JH (talk page) 09:35, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Tom Townsend[edit]

Hi, I have noticed the nice work that you have done at Tony Forrester and thought you might be interested in this new page that I have started. The Whispering Wind (talk) 00:06, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Old Ebor[edit]

I think I've done what I can now, if you care to have a look. Is there anything obviously missing? Sarastro1 (talk) 22:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Alan Ross (disambiguation)[edit]

Should the above link appear as red link, click on it, and the page will appear nevertheless. Sometimes there's a lag with new pages. Kraxler (talk) 17:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)


Thanks for that. Let me know of anything else you spot. Gubby's given me a fair bit of trouble, and is currently too long for my taste. But to be honest, I haven't found him as disagreeable as I expected; probably better than, say, Walter Robins or Freddie Brown. I think there have been a few, slightly unfair hatchet jobs on him, and having dug I'm none too impressed with the way Frith deals with him in the Bodyline book. Not to say I'll ever be a fan, and his role in the D'Oliveira affair and his dictatorial approach as chairman of selectors were dreadful, but still not as bad as I expected. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:35, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

May 2014[edit]

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Bridge writers talk[edit]

Hi. During the last three weeks I have covered Category:Bridge writers in several respects. See my long report on its talk page.

I see that you have replied to some of my talk page notes. Thanks. I have not followed my Watchlist closely and have not generally noticed your replies yet. --P64 (talk) 20:25, 10 June 2014 (UTC)


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Paul Stern[edit]

When I started getting seriously interested in bridge, in 1970 - I played Vienna, from his and AJ Smith's books.

I once met his son, Oskar; as a chemist, not as a bridge player. Small world. Narky Blert (talk) 23:56, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Azhar Mahmood[edit]

We had a discussion last year where you said this - (You're right about Azhar Mahmood of course, though it still seems strange to see "England" against his name.) JH (talk page) 07:55, 9 June 2013 (UTC) - where we basically agreed to list him as Pakistani.... I think? The Madras (talk) 21:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree it is odd, considering the guy really is Pakistani and has played for Pakistan, although has a British passport. I'm pretty sure it was left as Pakistan as the flag, with "British passport" written into the info? The Madras (talk) 18:13, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
OK, thanks! The Madras (talk) 08:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Gents v Players[edit]

Hi. Thanks for help there. Been on holiday meanwhile. Will do more soon but busy now. Regards FYB 10:51, 28 September 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fiveyardsback (talkcontribs)


Have you seen this? I knew this series existed but had never seen the books before. They're not bad, and it was finding Crawford's book that dragged me back to editing for a bit. It's a bit unfinished (literally: it was an unfinished project, so it looks like there would have been more about his life) but looks to have a bit of good stuff. It backs up your theory that Crawford was a spoilt brat as he had a few clashes in Australia. I'll see what I can add to the article, and we might get it to FA in the end! Sarastro1 (talk) 21:31, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I've chucked in what that book has to say, and have conceived a distinct dislike for Mr Crawford. I'm pretty much done and might get in some more eyes with a view to this elusive FA. I'd be grateful if you'd cast your eyes over it to make sure I've not done anything too thick! Sarastro1 (talk) 20:35, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
The book by Hart (which is vague on the New South Wales/Victoria business, so I'm not too sure) compares Crawford to Botham, of all people. KP? Maybe but I'm not sure Crawford ever felt genuinely victimised. Too full of his own importance, maybe. Boycott?

On the professional captains, Rhodes certainly captained Yorkshire quite a bit when the usual chap was absent. And possibly even when there were amateurs in the team. CricketArchive does not have all his games as captain, I don't think, which I've taken up with them before. And of course he was usually in charge whoever was in the team! Sutcliffe, I'm not too sure about. Possibly a few times, but AB Sellars tended to play all the time. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:17, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if the notifications keep popping up! I've asked a few FA people to take a look at Crawford with a view to FAC at some point soon, and I mentioned you in the message as I think you've put as much into this one as I have. If/when I nominate, I'll put you down as co-nominator. All your help is very appreciated. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:07, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
And it's now passed FA. Thanks for all your help on this one. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:17, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Probably somewhere. The Yorkshire minutes, for example, are held in an archive, and paying a visit there is one of the things on my real-life "to-do" list. I'd imagine the Surrey minutes similarly exist, maybe even still at the Oval. Sarastro1 (talk) 17:57, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately true about OR. You might be lucky though; a few things about Yorkshire made it into the Yorkshire Post, which is available through the British Newspaper Archive. For example, it gives the full text of Lord Hawke's famous "Pray God no professional..." speech. A few committee things creep in too. Perhaps there's something similar somewhere for Surrey. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:17, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Tony Priday[edit]

Thank you for favouring my edit. So very sad as he was SUCH a lovely man. Perhaps the most charming opponent I EVER played against though I rarely got a good board against him. and to drop a name, Robson gets a mention in dispatches too. But I'm told that he'd been ill with cancer for a while, and it may even be a bit of a release.

The Surrey Poet[edit]

Me again! I think that Albert Craig was one of yours. I don't know if you are subscribed to the Cricketer Archive but here is a link to an article about him. Let me know if you can't get it and I'll email it to you. Sarastro1 (talk) 16:03, 29 October 2014 (UTC)


So these persondata templates do have a purpose. I honestly didn't think they did.

Thanks for pointing out this purpose in your edits to the article on Rory Hamilton-Brown. Bluebird207 (talk) 00:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

University Match[edit]

You're probably right, but is it true that Wills is the only player the fixture's history to not have attended either university? I think that's notable in itself. - HappyWaldo (talk) 07:48, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry if I have asked you this before...[edit]

But is there a good reason why you're not an admin? --Dweller (talk) 09:40, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd have replied on your own talk page, but someone seems to have set up a redirect so that any attempt to go to it ends up here! Hopefully that will soon get fixed. The idea of being an admin doesn't appeal to me at all. I find the bureaucratic side of Wikipedia uninteresting, though I realise that much of that bureaucracy is necessary. When somebody quotes some mysterious set of initials as being a Wikipedia guideline my eyes tend to glaze over. I can also do without the making of enemies that becoming an admin would almost certainly result in sooner or later. JH (talk page) 10:17, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I now see that you seem to have hacked it yourself! I wish you'd warned me that trying to reply on your talk page would be a waste of time. Anyway, Chag Purim Sameach, Freilichin Purim. JH (talk page) 10:21, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Oops, I need to fix that today! Understood re adminship, although I'd like to point out that you're clearly very au fait with most of our important policies and guidelines. Have a good weekend. --Dweller (talk) 11:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


Thanks, John. I must have been daydreaming. Face-smile.svg Jack | talk page 17:17, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Will Crawford never be finished???[edit]

I noticed your adding of the new book to Crawford; have you read it yet? I'm going to, and have ordered it. Looks like more work for poor old Crawford. I think it paints him in a pretty bad light too. I'm around a bit for a while, so I'll see what I can do when I get it. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:39, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm coming round to your way of thinking about Crawford: he was an arse. There are a few juicy bits in the book that I plan to add. It's worth reading, by the way. But he doesn't come out of it amazingly well. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:06, 29 August 2015 (UTC)


Yes, it's a lot of fun finding out about him, isn't it? One thing that strikes me is that what constituted wild and unrestrained humour in those days often seems pretty unfunny now... and also that if Brooks had been around today he'd probably be mayor of London, a chat show host, or under a curfew with an ASBO. Johnlp (talk) 22:29, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

That is the book that was reviewed in the Pall Mall Gazette in 1898 and I quoted (ref No 11) from the review in the article. Good luck with finding more examples directly from the book! Johnlp (talk) 09:45, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
There's a second Booth book called "Master" and Men: Pink 'Un Yesterdays, published in 1926/27 (reviewed in the Saturday Review on 29 January 1927), and Booth wrote a book about London in the Nineties in 1929 and another volume in the early 1930s that sounds as though it rehashes Sporting Times stories. I'll see what I can find in various libraries I sometimes frequent. Johnlp (talk) 20:42, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Anthony Gibson[edit]

I think he's just about there as he's an award-winning writer and also has the OBE. It's always difficult when someone has several strings to their bow and isn't absolutely without-a-doubt notable on any single one of them. BTW I watched Surrey completely trounce Somerset in T20 at The Oval last night. Some of the batting and fielding was outrageously good. Johnlp (talk) 11:02, 18 July 2015 (UTC)


Hi, no problem about questioning me. Perhaps you know a bit about GEORGE, and could help also at Comparison of file systems? I edited there with this change, differentiating between a computer file system "George 2" (now unlinked) vs. the operating system George 2 (now linked to GEORGE (operating system)), when I really know nothing about either. I came there just as a matter of helping in general task of disambiguating; previously there was an ambiguous link George 2 which goes to a disambiguation page listing various King George's. If you know of a better phrase/name for the file system, or can improve the Comparison article in any other way, please feel free! Anyhow, I'm glad someone is paying attention. :) Keep up the good work. cheers, --doncram 19:49, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.[edit]


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S. Perera (Old Cambrians cricketer)[edit]

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Matt Hobden has been nominated for Did You Know[edit]

DYK for Matt Hobden[edit]

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April 2016[edit]

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ITN recognition for Tony Cozier[edit]

Gnome globe current event.svg On 13 May 2016, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Tony Cozier, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:03, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Jack Bloody Crawford[edit]

Another book...?!! How can we go for so many years with nothing on this ****, and now there are TWO biographies on him??? It's nearly killed me trying to update the article with the first one, but now there's another! And no doubt if I read that one, and update the article, some swine will bring out a third, or a history of Surrey in 1909, or an expose of Lord Alverstone or something. Have you read this new one? Looking on Amazon, I think it might just be a re-hash as it looks to be smoke and mirrors with little new to add. But I suppose I might take the plunge and have a look... Sarastro1 (talk) 21:02, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Well, I've finished updating the article with the first biography. Now I'll have a look and see if it's worth coughing up for the second. I can recommend the one by Michael Burns, if it's of any interest, but he uses the one by Nigel Hart that is available online for quite a lot of his information. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:04, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
I've read a bit of an excerpt, and it covers different ground to the Burns books. I haven't coughed up for it yet, but I probably will. Do you ever regret starting an article?? Sarastro1 (talk) 11:07, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

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Sandra Landy[edit]

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For improving my stub article on Sandra Landy up to seriously good start class. Narky Blert (talk) 21:52, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Mike Edward sources[edit]

Hi, an article you created and contributed to considerably in 2008 (namely Mike Edwards), has a lot of detailed stats but no sources - 9 years with no sources for these statements, especially in a BLP, is far from ideal. I'm not sure if it's convention to not source stats or insert references at every point for sports people/cricketers but the sourcing is not what I would expect for a normal biography. Perhaps, seeing as you know your way round cricket data, could you see to backing up the stats with sources? thanks Rayman60 (talk) 01:50, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I had a look at a few other Surrey cricketers listed on your talk page and many of them seem very undersourced. As mentioned above, I am not familiar with cricket profiles and sourcing conventions, but I would've expected them to be similar/identical to normal biographies, and ordinarily upon seeing articles like these, I would challenge and remove a considerable amount of the unsourced content. I would certainly question the viability of the information contained within should I happen upon one of these articles looking to learn about any of them. thanks Rayman60 (talk) 01:55, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

von Zedwitz and Spalding[edit]

In the section "Controversy," in the Spalding article, Spalding's guardianship over Zedtwitz is mentioned, but since the Baroness von Zedtwitz broke with Spalding in 1901, when her son turned 5, it's not clear what influence Spalding might have had.