Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine

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List of archives

Merged Archive WikiProject Preclinical medicine: 1 Merged Archive WikiProject Clinical medicine: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 WikiProject Medicine Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171

Wikipedia:Korean melon tweet from "Wikipedia" account

Korean melon1

I happened to notice this Wikipedia tweet: "The seeds of the Korean melon have been investigated for use in controlling diabetes." https://twitter.com/Wikipedia/status/1020854694099353602 However this content was removed in February as non MEDRS here from what I can see. JenOttawa (talk) 02:51, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Yeah... I noticed that on Facebook. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 10:43, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

@Zefr: That's your area – you can deal with it. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 11:20, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

@Zefr: I left them a note on twitter.JenOttawa (talk) 12:06, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

No response on twitter [1]. @Doc James:, what do you think? JenOttawa (talk) 12:34, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

you might try talk/page for Zefr--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:48, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Reproductive medicine:Follicular phase

Hi guys. I've just come across Follicular phase which is a real mess from a referencing point of view, lots of unreliable source tags and refs stuck in at random. Could someone who knows the area, and with the ability to check out some of the references, take a look? TIA Le Deluge (talk) 09:37, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

• Weschler, Toni (2015). Taking Charge of Your Fertility: The Definitive Guide to Natural Birth Control, Pregnancy Achievement, and Reproductive Health. HarperCollins. ISBN 9780062409911. Retrieved 28 July 2018.(indicated 2002)...removed this source and a few other edits--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 20:49, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Why? I followed User:Lyrl's work back in the day, and I got the impression that this is one of the best reliable sources on the subject of menstrual cycles, which is all the more important because it is aimed at a lay audience. Why would you just remove it, especially to leave (still accurate) content completely unsourced? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:40, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#Books Medical textbooks published by academic publishers are often excellent secondary sources...however should you be of a different opinion, please revert--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 21:20, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia - sourcing: Hindawi

Borderline predatory, and now this...Please use cautiously if at all... Jytdog (talk) 22:52, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Only borderline? Natureium (talk) 00:35, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

The Lancet published Wakefield, which is a very similar story. The problem in part is that journals want to publish controversial stuff. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:19, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Alternative medicine: Osteopathic medicine redirects

There are several redirects to Comparison of MD and DO in the United States which I think probably ought to be deleted or retargeted, on the basis that we ought to avoid having redirects from general, geographically-unspecific terms to U.S.-centric articles. I've retargeted Allopathic and osteopathic, Allopathic osteopathic and Osteopathic allopathic to alternative medicine, which strikes me as the best target for those titles, and suggested the same course of action for Allopathic and osteopathic medicine, which is currently at RfD. There are several others I'm unsure of what to do with with though:

• Comparison of allopathic and osteopathic continuing medical education
• Comparison of allopathic and osteopathic medical schools
• Comparison of allopathic and osteopathic medicine
• Comparison of allopathic and osteopathic physicians
• Comparison of orthodox and osteopathic medicine
• Comparison of osteopathic and allopathic medicine
• Differences between allopathic and osteopathic medicine
• Differences between osteopathic and allopathic medicine

Each of these has the double problem of suggesting to the reader that the target contains a comparison or list of differences (making alternative medicine an unsuitable target), and pointing from a nonspecific phrase to a specifically American article. There is also Separation in medicine, which could refer to any number of things. I'm asking here rather than (immediately) taking these to RfD because (1) I'm aware that that alternative medicine-related articles have been the source of much antagonism in the past; and (2) it's a topic about which I'm utterly clueless – what, for example, is the difference between osteopathy and osteopathic medicine? As such I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable intervening when there could be any number of complexities I don't know about. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 22:46, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

I think either they should be kept as redirects to the Comparison of MD and DO in the United States because they are titled "comparison" or deleted because there's no good article, and these seem unlikely search terms and article links. Natureium (talk) 23:49, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

They should be left alone, because this is an inherently US-specific subject. "Allopathy" is the name used by American osteopathic physicians and some altmed people to describe conventional medicine. (I've read that in other times and places, allopathy was the opposite of homeopathy: highly dilute substances that oppose your symptoms, rather than highly dilute substances that match your symptoms.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:52, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

The term "Allopathy" is a derogatory one used by Quacks to refer to real medicine. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 18:01, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: Thanks for clarifying. I'm still quite confused though. There's nothing in the allopathy article that suggests it's inherently U.S.-specific – in fact much of the article deals with Samuel Hahnemann, the German physician who coined the term. The existence of separate articles for Osteopathic medicine and Osteopathic medicine in the United States (not to mention Osteopathic medicine in Canada) also clearly suggests that osteopathic medicine isn't inherently U.S.-specific either. (The Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine qualification though does seem to be U.S.-specific, which is why I didn't list Comparison of M.D. and D.O., MD DO or a few others above.) – Arms & Hearts (talk) 12:02, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Right: the modern label of "allopathy" is more or less worldwide (with varying degrees of acceptance, e.g., US vs India), but the "osteopathic" part is really about the US. That makes all of these redirects (including the ones that don't mention allopathy) be about the US. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:41, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

You haven't addressed the second part of my point. If "osteopathic" refers to something exclusively practiced in the U.S. then why are osteopathic medicine and osteopathic medicine in the United States separate articles, and why does osteopathic medicine in Canada exist? Either way, I've nominated the group of redirects at RfD: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 August 2#Comparison of allopathic and osteopathic continuing medical education (and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 August 2#Separation in medicine separately). Your input is very welcome. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 23:26, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Nutrition and diet: Intermittent fasting reviewing

I have just updated Intermittent fasting with up-to-date info and reviews. The changes are substantial and I was told this is a hot topic, so it would be very helpful if someone knowledgeable on the topic could review it :-) Thank you very much in advance! --Signimu (talk) 00:51, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

[2]commented--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 15:58, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Epidemiology: UK Older People’s Quality of Life questionnaire (OPQOL)

Is anyone familiar with this questionnaire from the UK? Here's another link from a provider of questionnaires I didn't see it on List of patient-reported quality of life surveys, does it make sense to add it? I wasn't sure if it's a widely used survey. -Furicorn (talk) 02:29, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

It's hard to find good secondary sources, but checks of Google Scholar and Pubmed show that it has been used in a substantial number of peer-reviewed publications, so I would say that it belongs in the list (the OPQOL in general, not necessarily the UK-specific form). Looie496 (talk) 14:32, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the response @Looie496:. Sorry if I don't follow, I'm not super familiar with academic terminology. What do you mean by secondary sources vs peer-reviewed publications in this case? -Furicorn (talk) 20:02, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia terminology, not academic terminology. See WP:RS and particularly WP:MEDRS. Basically secondary sources are review articles, primary sources are direct research reports. Looie496 (talk) 20:51, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Oncology: Leptomeningeal cancer, Neoplastic meningitis and Meningeal carcinomatosis

Meningeal carcinomatosis: tumor cell clusters in the subarachnoid space

Should these be one, two, or three articles?

I was led by a comment on a talkpage to add "Leptomeningeal disease" to the lead of Leptomeningeal cancer (it's used in the article text and some of the sources), and to create a redirect from it and a dab page entry at LMD. I then realised that the other listed synonyms of Leptomeningeal cancer didn't have redirects, so set about creating them... and found that Neoplastic meningitis and Meningeal carcinomatosis existed as separate articles, with leptomeningeal carcinomatosis redirecting to the former. So three of the terms listed in the lead of the LC article are covered elsewhere.

I'm not a medic, just a wikignome. Could someone knowledgeable in the field please have a look at these articles and redirects? (Oh and carcinomatous meningitis redirects to Neoplastic meningitis, though not mentioned there as a synonym, although this source gives it as a synonym of Leptomeningeal disease.) PamD 08:16, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

More info: all three articles have existed since 2007 and earlier, though Leptomeningeal cancer was a single-sentence stub until massively expanded in April this year by an editor in her first and only two edits. Educational assignment perhaps? PamD 08:31, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

should remain as separate articles...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 10:39, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

@Ozzie10aaaa: Then what should be done with the lead of Leptomeningeal cancer, which says Leptomeningeal cancer (also called leptomeningeal carcinomatosis, leptomeningeal disease (LMD), leptomeningeal metastasis, neoplastic meningitis, meningeal metastasis and meningeal carcinomatosis) is ..., given that three of those terms lead elsewhere? PamD 22:18, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

per NCI Dictionary of Cancer Terms your correct, it has half a dozen synonyms (I struck out prior comment) all 3 should be merged :)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 23:29, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

• I've now proposed merges. Please contribute to the discussion, or eventually the merging. Or edit the articles to clarify the differences, if you think they shouldn't be merged. Thanks. PamD 11:45, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

thank you Pam--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:21, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Neurology: Neuroplasticity article

At Neuroplasticity (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), we need opinions on how to cover some material with regard to WP:Lead and WP:Due. See Talk:Neuroplasticity#"Recent articles". A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:30, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Alternative medicine: Hydrotherapy page

The Hydrotherapy page is problematic. The sourcing is pretty dodgy (I left a note on the Talk:Hydrotherapy with some details a few weeks ago), and I came back today to look at making some improvements to it, but I'm not now sure that rewriting it is the right way to go.

Hydrotherapy is offered by a number of NHS hospitals. From the information provide on their websites, and a subsequent search on Google scholar, the term usually refers to a form of physiotherapy that's undertaken in a warm bath. According to our page on it however, it seems to mean any treatment involving water - hot baths, cold baths, colonic irrigation, using water jets for mechanical debridement, or even just drinking large volumes of water. There's also an issue about the sheer size of the article - the History section is unduly massive and often gushing, as well as being intermittently sourced.

My intention had been to work on a rewrite, focussing on what seems to be the modern meaning of the word. However, having just looked at Aquatic therapy, I think that's actually describing the same thing. That page isn't perfect, but at least you come away with a sense of what might happen to you if you are referred for a hydrotherapy session.

I wonder whether we should redirect Hydrotherapy to Aquatic therapy, and put Hydrotherapy to AfD? Or rename it 'History of Hydrotherapy' and do some pruning? I'd appreciate thoughts from more experienced editors. Girth Summit (talk) 14:21, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

I don't think we need to delete any pages. From your description, it might be appropriate to split this into a bunch of articles and create either a WP:SETINDEX of all the things that have been called hydrotherapy, or a disambiguation page (e.g., Hydrotherapy (disambiguation)) that points to each of the types. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:03, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think it's workable. There are only one or two sentences for each possible version of what Hydrotherapy might mean, and none of it is properly sourced - mostly deadlinks or random websites. I'd be very grateful if you could take a quick look at the page and let me know if you really think there's anything worth saving about the modern practice stuff - from a 'making sense' point of view, it's one of the worst articles I've ever come across.Girth Summit (talk) 20:18, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia: Couple of blog posts about our collaboration with NIOSH / NIH

• Expanding and Improving Occupational Safety and Health Content in Wikipedia. It Matters.

• The Powerhouse: Students’ contributions towards expanding and improving occupational safety and health content in Wikipedia

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:24, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

very informative[3]--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 15:06, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Medical sociology: History of the body and disorder

• History of the body and disorder (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I'm not sure if the article is in the scope of this project as it mostly deals with history and protoscience. The author also appears new and a participating student, who may need gentle advice. A previous article was History of the location of the soul. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 18:27, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

It might be easier to write a book about this subject than to write an encyclopedic summary. I wonder whether anyone is still active at Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Science. This feels like something that should interest Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy, and/or any projects that have (or should have) tagged Medical humanities. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:07, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Alternative medicine: Stephen Gundry and lectin free diet

• Steven Gundry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I made some changes to this article last week adding some criticism of the lectin free fad diet that the MD promotes. An IP has come along today and is clearly not happy about my changes: [4] [5]. More eyes would be helpful and also on the lectin article where I just spotted this whitewashing from November which hasn't (yet) been reverted. SmartSE (talk) 15:47, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

I've added more sourced content which has been removed by an/the IP. I've already reverted a couple of time so will recuse myself for now. SmartSE (talk) 18:55, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Hematology: Myeloma

Plasmacytoma

Hi, I was looking at myeloma and noticed the diagnostic criteria are out of date (according the IMWG's 2014 guidelines - http://imwg.myeloma.org/international-myeloma-working-group-updated-criteria-for-the-diagnosis-of-multiple-myeloma/). I was wondering what would be the better way of updating the page, being bold or making a draft version in a sandbox and presenting it here for review? Thanks, Red Fiona (talk) 17:20, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Be_bold--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:26, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

+1 to being bold. It doesn't look like anyone's in the middle of working on that page, so I recommend making at least one bold change and seeing what happens. You can head to the talk page if there are concerns. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:01, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll get to work this weekend. Red Fiona (talk) 16:55, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Oncology: Question Regarding Edit Request on Colorectal Cancer Page

Hello - on June 26th, I submitted an edit request to the colorectal cancer page. After two weeks, the request was marked as stale, but the editor who did so suggested I flag my edit request to the WikiProject Medicine editors to leverage your expertise in the matter. Per his recommendation, I wanted to flag that edit request here in case someone from the Project would like to review the edit and share your thoughts.

NOTE: I proposed these edits for FleishmanHillard on behalf of Exact Sciences. I am a paid editor and am aware of the COI guidelines. The edit reqeust was submitted in hopes of making the information in the article about screening and testing more thorough. Thanks for your consideration. Jon Gray (talk) 18:46, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

commented[6]--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:21, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Carried out part of it. This I guess was their competitor User talk:Bu11man7 Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:51, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

[7]"was" being the operative word--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 00:04, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Toxicology/Alternative medicine: Erethism

• Erethism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

What brought my attention to this article was the edit history of someone who recently edited at the Electromagnetic hypersensitivity article. This made me wonder if this citation is considered reliable: Erethism#cite_note-9 ([8]). But there are other general issues like much material being in the lead that should be in the body, in case anyone wants to improve this article. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 19:26, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Adding: I'm not sure if it's related, but it reminds me of claims of mercury in light bulbs being able to enter nearby people's bodies through an electromagnetic transport. —PaleoNeonate – 19:31, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

No, that is just nonsense. Check out the article on amalgam disease, which (while needing work) links to at least 5 or 6 sources totally disqualifying any link between dental mercury and any symptoms or disease. Carl Fredrik ^talk 20:55, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

While I believe that CFCF's right about the science, we'd need a solid source to refute it. And that may be hard, given the narrow nature of the source. It's hard for the medical establishment to say that pregnant women can't have regular flu shots for fear of getting a few molecules of mercury from the preservative, but that an equal or greater amount of mercury from other sources is fine. If you want to have a go, then https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3388771/ addresses the correlation between dental fillings and fetal mercury exposure, and perhaps it would lead you to others. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:08, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

There was already a source — the FDA fact page... Carl Fredrik ^talk 03:14, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

...which doesn't say that dental amalgam is safe for pregnant women, children under 6, or people who might have allergies/non-allergic sensitivities to any component of dental amalgam. It says that those people should "talk to your dentist", and that there is almost no research in those three populations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:58, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Cardiology: Cardiomyoliposis

Hello everybody, I was looking for the above lemma. There seems to be missing a pertinent article currently, isn't there?--Neufund (talk) 22:02, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, User:Neufund. It looks like this is called Myocardial degeneration now.[9] That redirect could probably be turned into a separate article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:48, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

The base version of ICD-10 concurs (see I51.5) Little pob (talk) 11:31, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing and Little pob: Tanks for commenting! So, for the time being, would you recommend turning the red link into a redirect to Myocardial degeneration? If so, shouldn't the term cardiomyoliposis then at least be mentioned as a possible synonym, or similar, within the target article? Best--Neufund (talk) 21:06, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Pointing the red link to myocardial degeneration would make a double redirect. If you're not comfortable making the new article WAID has suggested (I know I'm not capable), it would be better to point to the overarching cardiomyopathy article. Little pob (talk) 11:12, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

@Little pob and WhatamIdoing: Oh, I'd be very comfortable with that article being created — however, I'm afraid I'm in the same boat with you, unfortunately... Regards--Neufund (talk) 20:18, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Cardiomyoliposis is the accumulation of lipids in cardiac muscle cells (cardiomyocytes), and is a histological finding in pathology samples. As such the literature is limited. That said, cardiomyoliposis ≠ myocardial degeneration. Myocardial degeneration is a larger concept that includes cardiomyloposis, but also other types of degeneration, such as: lysis of cells: (cardio)myocytolysis; various strictures; hyalin, fatty or senile degeneration; or syndromes such as Beau's syndrome — all falling under the same ICD-10 entry.

None of these concepts are broad enough to constitute an article on Wikipedia, apart from possibly myocardial degeneration. However, I would not give it top priority. If anyone is willing to write about it I would suggest various pathology text-books and possibly these articles:

• Pathogenesis of Arrhythmogenic Cardiomyopathy. Asimaki et al. 2015 — 10.1016/j.cjca.2015.04.012
• Cardiac troponin is the most effective translational safety biomarker for myocardial injury in cardiotoxicity. O'Brien PJ 2010 — 10.1016/j.tox.2007.12.006

Carl Fredrik ^talk 21:23, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

The following may also be relevant, found when searching for "myocyte degeneration":

• Cardiological features in idiopathic inflammatory myopathies. Bazzani et al. 2010 — 10.2459/JCM.0b013e32833cdca8
• Current concepts in the pathogenesis of atrial fibrillation. Kourliouros et al. 2009 — 10.1016/j.ahj.2008.10.009
• Cardiac troponin levels in heart failure. Potluri et al. 2004 — 10.1097/01.crd.0000089981.53961.cf

Carl Fredrik ^talk 21:29, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Cardiac Pathology: A Guide to Current Practice, 2013, ISBN: 978-1-4471-2406-1 has quite a lot. Carl Fredrik ^talk 21:42, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

It looks to me like we've successfully identified someone who could write that article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:45, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Clinical neuroscience

I've just started a discussion at Talk:Clinical neuroscience#Page focus, where more input would be welcome. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:01, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

commented--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:51, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia - sourcing: OMICS journals

Following Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/TokenzeroBot 5, you can now find nearly all OMICS journals cited on Wikipedia, and purge that crap from Wikipedia. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 06:30, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Cellular and Molecular Biology (https://www.cellmolbiol.org/index.php/CMB) might be confused for (https://www.omicsonline.org/cellular-and-molecular-biology.php), however. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 06:38, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Yup predatory journals try to name themselves similar to reputable journals to confuse people... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:33, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm also trying to build a general "CRAPWATCH" page. I'll need to hear from User:JLaTondre though, since he's the muscle behind the compilation. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:57, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Considering how much of amphetamine was plagiarized by one OMICS journal article (i.e., >12 paragraphs + 2 images) prior to me sending them a copyright infringement notice, I wonder how many other Wikipedia articles have been plagiarized by articles published in OMICS journals. I only noticed that particular case of plagiarism because I authored both images and almost all of the plagiarized text and regularly search for new literature to use to update that article. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 11:54, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

There was some research on that subject a while ago. Approximately the bottom quarter of journals have a problem with plagiarism. Problematic journals tend to involve a lot of people from developing countries (the OMICS group is in India), but I don't recall anyone pinning it down so narrowly as specific publishers having this problem vs other publishers not having this problem.

I still believe that reputable publishers would want to prevent this problem by using plagiarism-detection software. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:02, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia - sourcing: Cabells list

Just released that Cambell has both a whitelist and a blacklist.[10] Does anyone have access?

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:36, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Autocorrect got you? Anyhow, that looks like a candidate for an outreach mission for wp:WikiProject Academic Journals and wp:RX. An active collaboration with Cabells has the potential to do a lot of good.LeadSongDog come howl! 18:34, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Ocaasi, are you familiar with this list? I wonder if some sort of partnership arrangement could be worked out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:08, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Dermatology: Dermatology Taskforce

Is anyone working on this project anymore (or are interested)? There have been a group of Dermatology Residents volunteering for the past 5 months on here, and I was thinking of suggesting that they look at this project. [11]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine/Dermatology_task_force Is anyone interested in helping get it up and going again? JenOttawa (talk) 00:23, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Probably best just to have the discussion on this page. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:32, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

I think we should merge all of the taskforces here. A simple solution is to tag all specific discussions with ==Dermatology: Question…==. This is applicable to all our discussions, and would also serve to make it easy to navigate. We could similarly tag ==Wikipedia:Is MEDRS is line with RS?== etc. In fact I'm struck by the idea of tagging all current discussions now. Unless there are any objections I might do so now. It would definitely help in navigating this page, which while large and difficult to sort through is still the best we have. Carl Fredrik ^talk 08:58, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that changing all the section headings is going to help. I'm still going to read (almost) everything as a diff, so from my POV, this adds extra changes (and therefore longer diffs) plus percent-encoding to all the URLs, for no benefit. Perhaps others will disagree with me, however. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:48, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Oncology - breast cancer: Discussion about article "Dressed to Kill (book)"

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Dressed to Kill (book)#RfC about the summary section of a book review article, which is about an article that is within the scope of this WikiProject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:04, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Hum Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:31, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Psychiatry: Gender dysphoria in children article

Eyes and assistance are needed at Gender dysphoria in children (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). The latest dispute is seen at Talk:Gender dysphoria in children#Supposed myth and "junk science". It concerns the widely reported statement that the majority of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria cease to desire to be the other sex by puberty, with most growing up to identify as gay or lesbian with or without therapeutic intervention. This is supported by numerous reliable sources, and James Cantor, a researcher in this field, also included some sources in support of the statement on the talk page in the past. However, in transgender discourse, this report has been challenged. In this discourse, it's referred to as "the desistance myth." This is why an editor removed the material from the lead. I reverted, stating that we go by what WP:Reliable sources state and with WP:Due weight. Also, I see a lot of blog and media material about "the desistance myth," and references to Julia Serano, but hardly anything on Google Books and Google Scholar about it (at least under that name). The editor pointed to this critical commentary concerning "the desistance myth," and I pointed to this response commentary on the matter. Per the weak support for "the desistance myth" (meaning I don't see it supported by a lot of solid sources), I object to the editor removing the aforementioned material as junk science. The material does not fall under WP:Fringe. This debate can, however, go in a Society and culture section for the article. But then again, the "Management" section currently already includes debate material, which is where more on this matter could go (if it's felt that the "Management" section should remain mostly about debate). And, yes, the article obviously needs cleanup.

Thoughts? Doc James, any thoughts? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 10:53, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

LibrePrincess, again, we have rules to follow here. I suggest you thoroughly read WP:MEDRS and WP:Neutral (especially its WP:Due weight section). On Wikipedia, being neutral does not mean what being neutral means in common discourse. I've already pointed you to WP:Advocacy. Advocacy will not be tolerated on this site. Your personal opinions of the researchers do not matter. What matters is covering the literature with WP:Due weight. On a side note: Indent properly. Stop drawing a line for your responses. See WP:Indent. I fixed the indenting for you above. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:22, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

I'd also like it to be noted that your attempt to return primary research to the article is to the detriment of it (this point was with regard to the initially contended papers, not the secondary sources you replaced them with, the distiction between the 2 is vital if we're going to converse coherently and I feel neither of us have been doing that), if I recall, Wikipedia guidelines prioritise citing secondary sources, that cite their sources, from reliable publishers, and reputable authors. The Elsevier Endocrinology book you used in numerous places in the article accounts for both this and my objections so far, making it entirely unnecessary for you to insist on the matter. LibrePrincess (talk) 14:19, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

WP:MEDRS states, in part, "Ideal sources for biomedical information include: review articles (especially systematic reviews) published in reputable medical journals; academic and professional books written by experts in the relevant fields and from respected publishers; and guidelines or position statements from national or international expert bodies." So how does that book source fail WP:MEDRS? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:29, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Now since the first book is an endocrinology book, I can see replacing it with a different source, which I can easily do. And I used neither source in numerous places. I used them once in the lead and once lower. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:48, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Let me put this as clearly as I can. The book I removed doesn't cite its sources. I and the academics I cited contend that the sources you used with regard to desistance are methodologically faulty. As the book I removed doesn't cite it's sources, I (or you or anybody else) can't possibly know if the book used those papers as a source, despite making more or less the same claim about the state of trans science as the papers in contention. I thus propose we remove it to hedge against the book being a product of a faulty set of studies.

The other book (the aformentioned endocrinology one) you cited has citations, and the citations it uses weren't the ones I was taking contention with. This is fine, because a book is only as good as the sources of information it uses to construct itself presuming it doesn't include original research; and neither book does original research. Basically, you already have a citation there that passes all the quality standards we're both applying (which is why I'd also make the contention that a second citation isn't strictly necessary).

As per your edit on the article in question it seems you've already formed a caricature of me in your mind in which I'm jumping at every oppurtunity to call people transphobes. I'd like you to be mindful of that because from my perspective I'm acting in WP:GOODFAITH and trying to resolve an issue with the article (in that I don't believe the specific book I removed the cite of to be up to scratch), and though we evidently haven't gotten off to a great start, I'd like that to change. LibrePrincess (talk) 15:09, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

I pointed to a Wikipedia sourcing guideline for my argument. Can you point to a Wikipedia sourcing guideline that says that the source in question must clearly cite its sources for its material? It is common for us to validly cite sources that don't clearly cite their sources for a statement. In a number of cases, they are reporting on the literature. It's not uncommon for them to state things in their voice, without a citation beside their statement. In the case of that source, it does not appear to be going by its own data. It refers to evidence, and the "About" page for it says it "provide[s] a focused overview of the core knowledge in pediatrics." Are you focused on citation indexes, like what WP:SCHOLARSHIP says? Generally, in the case book sources like the above, we judge the quality of the source per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources...and follow what the source states if it passes our WP:Reliable sources guideline. For medical content, however, we follow what WP:MEDRS states. As for a caricature of you with regard to calling people transphobes, you are the one who stated, "The studies cited have numerous methodological flaws and were written by people who in polite conversation could be readily described as transphobes." And you are the one bringing up Blanchard's transsexualism typology. Given your arguments here, I would not be surprised to find you at that article next, editing in ways that are questionable. This is not about Blanchard's transsexualism typology. It's about many people who had gender dysphoria as children not having it/not identifying as transgender as adults. There are many gay, lesbian and bisexual people who state that they felt like/were convinced they were supposed to be the opposite sex when they were a child and ended up "growing out of it." A famous example is Ruby Rose. As for not having a rocky editing relationship with you, I would like that too. And if you really want me to replace the source with one that clearly cites its sources, I will. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:51, 4 August 2018 (UTC) Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:02, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

"Can you point to a Wikipedia sourcing guideline that says that the source in question must clearly cite its sources for its material?"

I can't because I'm not experienced enough as an editor on this site (if it doesn't exist then it should), my point is that you have the endocrinology citation there that works fine, and the source of information for the pediatrics book is questionable because it doesn't cite any sources, ergo it seems sensible to leave out the pediatrics book as a matter of caution, given that very popular research in recent history, that says more or less the same thing, has methodological flaws, and we can't know if it's citing that or not. If policy on this doesn't exist, then direct me to the proper channels by which to propose it, because I think the idea that because a reputable press published it the information therein is therefore reliable despite not citing it's sources is a laughable idea and it stinks of Scientism and appeal to authority, or rather, appeal to the reputation of the publisher. I frankly feel that the issue has been overblown because we could've just settled the matter on having that endocrinology citation in the article and leaving it at that.

As for calling anyone and everyone a transphobe, I called some specific academics transphobes because of things they've said and published that I take issue with and consider transphobic, which really isn't the same thing as calling anyone and everyone a transphobe, and to suggest as such is frankly silly.

With regard to Ruby Rose and my personal opinions, I don't deny that there is some desistance, I never denied that desistance existed, my contention is with the faulty methodology of the primary research you used before you replaced it, and one of the books you replaced it with because it doesn't cite any sources.

"And if you really want me to replace the source with one that clearly cites its sources, I will."

This is what I was trying to make happen the entire time lol (well, that and avoiding use of those aformentioned studies with methodological flaws) keep the Endocrinology book and ditch/replace the Pediatrics book

LibrePrincess (talk) 16:39, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

You can propose the matter at the WP:Verifiability and WP:Reliable sources talk pages. Rather one of them, and link to the matter at the other per WP:TALKCENT. I never stated that you would call everyone/anyone a transphobe, but it did seem to me that you were likely to call me or anyone else transphobic for simply trying to adhere to this site's rules by retaining the material. This matter was not overblown; and that's because not only were you calling the material junk science when it's supported by numerous reliable sources, you were removing the material based on your personal feelings. You stated that you "don't deny that there is some desistance." But you removed the entire lead paragraph on the matter and called it a myth. So, yes, this requires more eyes. As for the methodology of the primary research, a number of reliable sources cite those studies when making the statement. We're not going to disregard such sources simply because of a few sources going on about a desistance myth, or because of this source. Also, per WP:BLP, you need to be careful with the transphobe language. WP:BLP applies to talk pages in addition to articles. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:17, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the help on the WP stuff, I've not quite learnt my way around the site yet so it's valued help.

Regarding this: "that's because not only were you calling the material junk science when it's supported by numerous reliable sources, you were removing the material based on your personal feelings." and this: "you removed the entire lead paragraph on the matter and called it a myth"

What I was calling a myth and junk science is that the majority of trans folks desist when diagnosed in childhood. I don't think that desistance itself is a myth because to do so would be to insist that detransitioners are liars, and assuming people are liars about their own thoughts and feelings (as noted above with regard to Blanchard) is basically never a productive route. I appreciate that evidently my communication wasn't clear enough in the matter.

Evidently my personal beliefs aren't ostensibly backed up by research thusfar, assuming similar methodological flaws don't appear in the other sources (which I've not checked so whether my beliefs are backed is really an open question for me), and I can only work with what I can find and have time to read.

I don't edit because WP:IDONTLIKEIT, I edited it because I recalled that aformentioned paper at the time and I didn't cite it in the edit notes (though I should've) because I was frustrated that papers that are cited to me ad nauseum in conversations elsewhere were present on Wikipedia, which to some extent may account for their popularity, when I knew they had methodological flaws, and thus were, in my belief, junk science. Now, on to the junk science.

"As for the methodology of the primary research, a number of reliable sources cite those studies when making the statement. We're not going to discard such sources simply because of a few sources, like the one you cited above."

When someone finds methodological flaws in a study that affect the outcome of the study such that the conclusion drawn is self evidently incorrect, that makes the paper not particularly great science. To assert that because other papers cite it, that means the information therein is true, is once again scientism. To paraphrase Deirdre McCloskey in The Rhetoric of Economics, the act of citation, or someone making a scientific claim, is an act of persuastion, not scientific methodology; if the scientist has not performed the experiment or observation themselves themselves then they are saying "you can trust this source", essentially making an appeal to authority. Ergo, citation in a secondary source doesn't really indicate much of anything if the paper itself has been found faulty. I'd also like to remind you that appeals to authority are a core element of psuedoscience because the content is irrelevant provided you can slap the "science" label on it, which is precisely what's happening here. Because of the association to science as an institution, you're saying you trust it more; but however many clever people look over something, it doesn't make it correct, if that was true then Thomas Kuhn would be out of a book. LibrePrincess (talk) 18:10, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Welcome to Wikipedia, User:LibrePrincess. It sounds like you are discovering what an complex place it is behind the scenes.

On the instant question of whether reliable sources are required to cite their own sources, you will not find any policy or guideline that requires this. In fact, the opposite rule is documented in the last question at the main FAQ on reliable sources. This may be surprising, but if you think about the wide variety of sources that different articles deal with, and the vast types of information that needs to be sourced, then it should make more sense. While it is typical (although by no means universal) for academic papers to cite references, it would be silly to require a list of references for some content (e.g., anything covered by WP:ABOUTSELF). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, I accept the difficulty of this applying to all things, that would obviously be unreasonable and unrealistic, my specific expectation is that this apply to scientific claims and scientific publishing because of the numerous instances of otherwise reputable journals having to publish (or not as the case may be, to preserve reputation) retractions to their articles and papers, instances of otherwise popular studies having refutations and criticisms published about them that are critical to the invalidation of the theory or specific paper (as was the case here), and scenarios where the author(s) themselves go on to discuss the methodological issues in their own stud(y/ies) in a different forum; as a matter of the production and discussion of scientific knowledge.

Implemented correctly, when a book or academic paper makes a claim relating to a scientific matter, such as childhood desistance from transgender identification, we know exactly where they got their information from and we can find out whether that paper was retracted/corrected/criticized and so on, and reject the information if it cites nothing, because conjecture and assertion isn't science. I'm actually surprised that that isn't an ongoing standard for academic material. LibrePrincess (talk) 18:55, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

What you'e going to find even more surprising is that the policies and guidelines for editing Wikipedia have evolved over quite a few years and enjoy strong consensus among its editors. So it will also come as quite a shock when I tell you that no Wikipedia editor is judged fit to analyse sources and make the decision to reject a source based on their own analysis (see Essjay controversy for some background). That's why we don't put much store in primary sources because they almost always require interpretation by others whom we deem suitable to do that job. That's why we put so much store in secondary sources and in the quality of the type of source. As for books and journals, we necessarily have to appeal to authority, because we're not equipped to supply that authority ourselves. Reviews published in the Lancet, for example, come with some assurance of quality supplied by the Lancet's editorial policy, its peer-review policy and its reputation. Similarly a good quality medical book publisher will wish to guard its reputation by taking the usual precautions to ensure that the material which bears its imprint is fit for purpose. So, you're right: it's not scientific; it is conjecture about the quality of the source; it is assertion that what a good quality secondary states is the wiki-equivalent of "true". But those are the rules we play by here. If you don't like them, you can always try to gather enough support to change them, but in the meantime, you will abide by them when you edit Wikipedia. --RexxS (talk) 21:02, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

LibrePrincess, regarding this and this, I think it might have been better if you had struck through your comments instead. This is because you took my and WhatamIdoing's comments out of context. See WP:REDACT. I'd rather not look like I'm responding to myself. But let's just leave your removals as they are; perhaps it is for the best.

Regarding your statement that "What [you were] calling a myth and junk science is that the majority of trans folks desist when diagnosed in childhood.," that right there shows that you automatically view the kids as trans. I know that the term transgender can be broad, but the reason that a number of experts advise parents to wait and see if their child will be trans into puberty/adolescence is because many kids who are gender nonconforming may not be trans in the permanent sense. The waiting approach and advising parents on the likelihood that their child will "grow out of" the dysphoria is to separate the ones with "true"/permanent dysphoria from the ones who have a temporary dysphoric state. You can personally contest that the majority of children with gender dysphoria "grow out of it," but you should not let that affect your Wikipedia editing. We must follow what the literature states and with due weight. Perhaps like the Childhood gender nonconformity article currently states, there may be biases in retrospective studies with regard to sexual orientation and gender nonconformity, but we can only follow the literature on things such as "gay men often report being feminine boys, and lesbian women often report being masculine girls," and that the majority of children with gender dysphoria grow up to identify as gay or lesbian (or bisexual) and not as transgender.

As for junk science, we can't reject material based on our personal opinions that the material is junk science. We have the WP:Fringe guideline to go by. In the case of medical material, if WP:MEDRS-compliant sources call the material junk science, then that's something to consider. But even in that case, we must keep WP:Due weight in mind. When it's just different sides arguing against each other, which is what the Gender dysphoria in children article currently is at the moment, at least it's not us obscuring one side. If it's medical and/or scientific consensus that something has been debunked, then we go by that. But there is no medical and/or scientific consensus that the majority of children with gender dysphoria do not "grow out of it." I think it's best that you stop characterizing Blanchard's and similar researchers' views as stating that people are liars. "Growing out of" gender dysphoria is not about having been lying beforehand. And, for the record, I keep putting "growing out of" in quotation marks because (for some) it may not be the best description for the process and/or may seem too simplistic and/or offensive. You do appear to edit with a WP:IDONTLIKEIT rationale (at least somewhat), and I'm surprised that an apparent newbie would know about WP:IDONTLIKEIT. But a lot of editors who come here edit like that before learning the rules and improving as editors. Methodological flaws in a study are worth noting when supported by a solid source. But do keep in mind that, like RexxS stated above, Wikipedia is not as worried about the truth as it is about what the preponderance of reliable sources state and/or what the consensus is. See WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and WP:Truth, not verifiability. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:58, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

"that right there shows that you automatically view the kids as trans."

That might be the source of the problem. Whether "the kids" desist is going to depend upon whether "the kids" are actually trans – that is, whether you are studying "Every kid who ever claimed to be a different gender than the family expected", or "Every kid for whom gender-related treatment was sought", or "Every kid who turned out to be trans when measured at a defined point in time" (or any of many similar conditions). This might be one of those "by definition" problems, in which case, you can't say that "the kids" do or don't do anything, until you've defined exactly which group of "the kids" you're talking about. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:54, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Psychiatry: Species dysphoria article

More eyes are needed at Species dysphoria (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) as well. I hadn't looked at that article in years. At some point, I took it off my watchlist (or perhaps it was never on my watchlist). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:18, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Cantor is an expert. You (from what I can tell) are not. And the Species dysphoria article is poor. Whether you are editing it or someone else is, it needs help. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:29, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

And given your feelings about Cantor, you editing his Wikipedia article is questionable. Do see WP:COI. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:37, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Note: There is some content missing from this section. I certainly was not responding to myself. And WhatamIdoing was not responding to me, but was rather responding to LibrePrincess. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:18, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Being an academic subject-matter expert is not considered a COI on Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:20, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

I think you're making some assumptions about how Canadian academics are paid. Someone here asked him about it a few years ago. He said that his paycheck is the same no matter what. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:57, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

One time only, and for the record:

1. I do not, and I have never had, any financial interest in holding any scientific opinion, and to accuse a legitimate scholar of otherwise on a WP page, even a talk page, is no small matter.

• WP:Libel: “It is the responsibility of all contributors to ensure that the material posted on Wikipedia is not defamatory. It is Wikipedia policy to delete libelous material when it has been identified.”

User:LibrePrincess: I will not say this again:
Redact your claims immediately. I leave you to your own reading to see how seriously WP takes these matters.

2. I note that User:LibrePrincess has also taken to editing James Cantor, removing from my WP:BLP several well RS’d statements not to that user's POV. I will leave it to others to review them for appropriateness.

3. Regarding actual content of Gender dysphoria in children, User:LibrePrincess is entirely explicit that no statement from me that could cause any change of mind, and I have no reason to add gas to the fire. Other editors have already made the relevant points.

4. FWIW, I have actually left my job at CAMH for private practice, and I receive no money whatsoever from any academic activity, making much of User:LibrePrincess' commentary moot (if not serving as outright counter-evidence of her financial conspiracy theory about me).

I await the redaction of the defamatory material.— James Cantor (talk) 23:09, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

There, all deleted, maybe the admins will delete it from the log too, idk how any of this works, I'm just some idiot on the internet who thought that they knew what they doing on this damn site. If the admins want to ban me or you want to sue me then I guess I'm fucked now anyways, I retract all of it, it's all deleted, I take it all back, it's all bollocks, dunno how many different ways I need to restate that for the lawyers but there you go, you have my retraction, I thought I knew shit about you and apparently I don't. I was talking shit on the goddamn internet and attempting to be vaguely anticapitalist and look where that got me. Have a nice life, please leave me to mine. Should've gone to bed a long time ago. LibrePrincess (talk) 00:10, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Jesus I can't sleep. Look, I messed up, I haven't slept in I forget how long. I'm not doing too great recently so I thought I'd go edit some stuff on what I thought I knew. I know that's not an excuse but I just can't afford to be sued, like, literally I am poor as shit. I know this is gonna sound stupid but like, have mercy, please? It's all gone now, it wasn't up for super long. I just, I don't know how any of this legal stuff works, fuck I don't even know how half the stuff on this site works, I didn't even know talking shit was a crime....I'm way in over my head is the point, I'm not a lawyer, I've never even spoken to a goddamn lawyer or met one for that matter. I just hope the deletions are enough. I don't need to sign this, you know who. All I ask is that you don't take me to court or whatever it is libel does, I'm pretty sure that's courts. Have a nice life, I know I wont. LibrePrincess (talk) 01:27, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

James Cantor is not a bad lad and is not going to take away your money and possessions. No editor here can threaten legal action, per WP:LEGAL, without risking an indefinite block. I am fairly sure he was just warning you of the redline you had crossed and giving you a chance to walk back over that redline. Thankfully you heeded his advice and have avoided administrative action such as being blocked from editing. You can relax now, learn from this experience and get some good rest.--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 13:56, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

James Cantor FYI, since it seems that LibrePrincess is admitting to not knowing much about you and your work, I've reverted the edits she made to the article about you. Girth Summit (talk) 14:22, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks!— James Cantor (talk) 14:58, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Now I know that User: James Cantor isn't coming for my toothbrush I'll defend my edit.

@Girth Summit - What I removed was just compliments of him and his opinions. That's not relevant to an article about him, surely, when they're in the section about his views? And there's an entire section about how some writers think he's a really nice guy and charasmatic?? I have to ask, why would it be relevant if someone else endorsed his ideas for whatever reason? Lots of people endorse what Stephen Hawking wrote in his numerous books but there isn't any of that on his page, so however great the guy is it doesn't make it approporiate for the wiki. I might not know much of anything about libel law but I know frivolity when I see it (or at least I'd like to think I do). I would apprectiate if you could rollback your edit, and if not, explain why not here or tag me in Talk:James Cantor so I and others know why. I'd roll it back myself but you referenced the discussion here, so I'd like to find out it if was just a misinterpretation of my admission to knowing little about his finances, or if you have other backing (contained here or otherwise) LibrePrincess (talk) 20:16, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

LibrePrincess You removed well-sourced material about the critical reception of his academic work. You also changed the language used in the argument (Transgenderism --> Transgender People) based purely on your personal experience that this is a loaded term, without even checking (as far as I can tell) whether this was the term used in the sources. Remember - we go with the sources, not our experience. WP:BRD - you boldly edited, you have been reverted, if you want to discuss it further go to the talk page and see if you can get a consensus for your changes. Girth Summit (talk) 07:44, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

User:Girth Summit - I quote from James Cantor#Reception directly:

The Toronto Star described "sitting inside his office at the College St. research hospital", stating that "Cantor is surrounded by books on sexology and eccentric decor—a framed sign that reads 'Data Is My Porn', a throw pillow that spells 'penis' in Braille."

Are you arguing a throw pillow is now an academic work? How in the world is the critical reception of a throw pillow relevant or important to a reader of this article per wiki guidelines? LibrePrincess (talk) 11:34, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

LibrePrincess I'm not arguing anything. In your posts above, you seem to be acknowledging that you know very little about the subject of the article; you also made some allegations against him (which you have now retracted), so I thought it best to take a look at the changes you made to the page about him. I looked at the stuff you removed, and noted that it appeared to be properly sourced; I looked at the language you changed, and noted that the only reason you gave for the change was your own experience; I therefore reverted. You evidently think that your edits were valid, so you should start a discussion on the talk page of the article. I think we should draw a line under the discussion on this page, it's not the place for it and this is just causing a distraction to the project.Girth Summit (talk) 13:02, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

LibrePrincess, regarding stuff like this, why do you think those are good sources? Even discounting WP:MEDRS, which is what the article should be following as best it can, they are poor sources. It just looks like you using poor sources to push your own POV views. I am tempted to take a hatchet to the entire article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:06, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

It would be odd if I was pushing my own POV with that source, I disagree with Probyn-Rapsey on many things vehemetly, including many frankly insulting comments she made in the very paper I cited, I very much take the view of the Gerbasi et al. response to the paper; nor do I consider Furry to be a queer identity. I'm not sure if you've considered that my account doesn't exist to push POV, because if I was pushing POV I'd want that paper as far away from Wikipedia as possible, and yet it is there, and added by myself no less. LibrePrincess (talk) 15:42, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I'd changed my above wording to focus on sources (plural). Not just one. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:15, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Signs and symptoms: Muehrcke's nails and Mees' lines and leukonychia striata

Is there any difference between these? They seem both to have lychonychia striata as a synonym. Carl Fredrik ^talk 22:12, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

CFCF, yes, Muehrcke's lines and Mees' lines appear to be different. They are both transverse white lines across the nail but appear to be associated with different underlying conditions per this review [12]. Leukonychia striata appears to be an umbrella term for white transverse lines of the nails per this review [13]. I hope this helps. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 08:52, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Ophthalmology: Eye color article

There are some questionable claims made in this section of Eye color (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I softened some language, such as changing "are" to "may be." And I addressed the section on the article's talk page. But the section could still use some eyes from editors here. So can other parts of the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 12:48, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Arguably, all the citations given fail MEDRS (either very old or not reviews), but I guess MEDRS doesn't really apply...? This is human biology, not medicine. Bondegezou (talk) 12:57, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

It is physical anthropology, medicinal aspects would only be relevant if there was any suggestion of screening, treating or otherwise medically intervening. Iris colour is not a disease or indicative of disease (excepting in some exceptional circumstances). The sections are most definitely not "ophthalmology" as in the study of disease states relative to the eyes. Urselius (talk) 18:48, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

WP:MEDRS applies to biomedical material. We do apply WP:MEDRS to biological topics when it concerns health material. Even though health (usually) is not the focus of our anatomy articles, it's the case that we look to WP:MEDRS for sourcing our anatomy articles, such as with the Human brain article. WP:MEDSECTIONS even has a section for anatomy. In the case of the Eye color article, the section in question deals with light-eyed people supposedly being more susceptible to becoming dependent on alcohol, which is clearly a medical/health aspect. It also concerns people with light-colored eyes supposedly having higher tolerance to pain. Pain is a medical/health aspect, which is why a few of our WP:Med editors watch/edit the Pain article. Testosterone, which the section also mentions, is a biological topic, but we apply WP:MEDRS to it and a few of our WP:Med editors watch/edit that article. That article is tagged as being within the scope of both WP:Biology and WP:Med (and a few other WikiProjects). In addition to the section I pointed to, the Eye color article also has a Medical implications section. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:49, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Further, MEDRS is effectively guidance in interpreting the policy WP:RS, which requires secondary sources. They are not just for MEDRS. We are simply more rigorous about them within MEDRS scope. LeadSongDog come howl! 15:36, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

The introduction to the rare iris colour selection paper effectively reviews all the other claims supported by primary research. Look at it, it is available online. Fallone and Baluch is a review. Urselius (talk) 18:54, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Both are guidelines, but your point is noted. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:04, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Please don't be dismissive of guidelines. They enjoy a strong, site-wide consensus and editors need very good reasons to disregard them. --RexxS (talk) 11:52, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

RexxS, I wasn't being dismissive of the guidelines. LeadSongDog called WP:RS a policy, and I was pointing out that both WP:RS and WP:MEDRS are guidelines. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:14, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Ah, I get it now! Don't mind me – it's just senility. --RexxS (talk) 20:41, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I looked up a few of the references on PubMed (and I formatting the references to make them easier for you to find). I agree that the claims are definitely questionable, and lacking in independent secondary sources. I have not viewed the book references, nor the 1959 Nature reference (Sutton). I found this paper, which mentions Worthy's work, but the paper is not really about human eye colour.

In my opinion, in the absence of recent independent secondary sources, the whole subsection should be severely reduced. Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:45, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Bondegezou (talk) 12:50, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Oncology / Exercise science: Deleting a paragraph cited to a Cochrane review and 3 medical reviews

Exercise

I'd appreciate input from other editors at Talk:Exercise#Exercise and cancer cachexia because at this point, I don't really care about arguing this anymore. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 17:58, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

• give opinion(gave mine)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:03, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Request for publication funding

I am seeking support with signatures at the bottom of this page, or alternatively criticism or any comments on the talk page.

• meta:Grants:Project/Rapid/bluerasberry/publishing wiki education research in healthcare

Hello, I did a research project about students in a medical program doing English Wikipedia editing in the Wikipedia education program. I have a research paper about this which I have submitted to a journal.

Open access publication fees are $3000, which is typical. The Wikimedia Foundation "rapid grants" program offers $2000 of support for certain small projects. I am requesting this $2000 in grant funding from the WMF to help cover the open access publishing fee. I have the rest.

Beyond my asking for this I also encourage other people doing academic publishing, especially at the intersection of Wikimedia projects and medicine, to publish in traditional journals and seek WMF support to pay the open access fee.

Anyone requesting funds from the WMF does so publicly and has to solicit community comments. If anyone has any comments - in support or in criticism - whatever you have to say is useful and develops the conversation about publishing Wikimedia activities in academic journals. I appreciate anyone who can either sign their wiki user name in support of the funding on the front page, or anyone who can post any criticism to the talk page about my proposal, the broader circumstances of WMF funding, or of wiki engagement in this publishing. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:58, 8 August 2018 (UTC)