User talk:Jimbo Wales: Difference between revisions
Line 523: | Line 523: | ||
:::::re "Australian library project" - Hadn't heard of that. Don't know. Sorry.... [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 16:34, 19 May 2014 (UTC) |
:::::re "Australian library project" - Hadn't heard of that. Don't know. Sorry.... [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 16:34, 19 May 2014 (UTC) |
||
:::::::Has Jimbo said that we can't use his talkpage to ask for help or ideas with article subjects? He seems to get good results here when he's working through research subjects. [[User:Candleabracadabra|Candleabracadabra]] ([[User talk:Candleabracadabra|talk]]) 16:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC) |
:::::::Has Jimbo said that we can't use his talkpage to ask for help or ideas with article subjects? He seems to get good results here when he's working through research subjects. [[User:Candleabracadabra|Candleabracadabra]] ([[User talk:Candleabracadabra|talk]]) 16:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC) |
||
::::::::{{reply to|Candleabracadabra}} - "''Has Jimbo said that we can't use his talkpage''" - No. Jimbo is wise and inviting, and his tent is big. But still, if ''everyone'' came here to post on random subjects, the page would get a little busy, don't you think? [[User:NickCT|NickCT]] ([[User talk:NickCT|talk]]) 16:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:41, 19 May 2014
Welcome to my talk page. Please sign and date your entries by inserting ~~~~ at the end. Start a new talk topic. |
He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis. |
This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated. |
(Manual archive list) |
Two more WMF donors editing Wikipedia
Jimmy, would you be kind enough to look at the allegations described in this blog post, then comment on them? - 2001:558:1404:0:0:5EFE:A19:F327 (talk) 13:11, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
- Sure. It's a dishonest headline, implying that if you donate to the Wikimedia Foundation, you get "benefits" in terms of your article. You know that's 100% false.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
- If that's 100% false, then you imply that there will be community-initiated repercussions for the COI editing that has been taking place regarding all of the article subjects that Wikipediocracy's series has exposed? Once you show that the Wikipedia community actually takes all of this seriously, and the COI edits are rolled back, and the involved editors are admonished on their Talk pages, then I'm sure that Wikipediocracy would gladly change the title of this blog post, if the title of it is the most disturbing thing you're choosing to react to. - 2001:558:1400:10:8184:2AEA:A020:7890 (talk) 14:35, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
- That doesn't follow. You know as well as I do that the community does not give favoritism to COI edits by donors to the WMF. There is a problem with coping with COI edits overall, but there is not a problem with donations to WMF corrupting the process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:51, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
- You're saying that a donation to the WMF has never corrupted the editing process on Wikipedia? Are you sure? Look, I completely see what you're saying, Jimbo. You're right, that a donation does not actually or even figuratively grant the donor a special exemption on Wikipedia, in terms of editing. (Although, there have been a couple of cases where I've seen comments like "They just gave the WMF a boatload of money, so we should have an article about them.") However, the fact does remain that the WMF's legal department has sent a cease-and-desist letter to a paid editing firm, and the WMF human resources department has fired an employee for the infraction of non-disclosed paid editing. But other than the Belfer Center fiasco post mortem, we have never, ever seen the WMF make any sort of public comment or provide meaningful feedback about any of the dozens of major donors who are participating in COI and/or paid advocacy editing (some with disclosure, many without). However, the WMF has made all kinds of public comments about firms like Wiki-PR or Bell Pottinger, for doing approximately the same thing as the donors are doing, but they didn't donate anything to the WMF. It is therefore not unreasonable to conclude that one measure of whether the WMF will formally respond to an allegation of COI/paid/advocacy editing or not, is whether the editor has made a financial donation to the WMF or not. Really, would it be so difficult for one of the WMF's legal staff, or even one of the "storytellers" on the payroll, to provide a public statement about how inappropriate it is for donors to the Wikimedia movement to be simultaneously manipulating content about themselves on Wikipedia in ways that skirt or are wholly outside of Wikipedia policy and guideline norms? Is there some reason you or the WMF would decline to do that? - 2001:558:1400:10:8184:2AEA:A020:7890 (talk) 15:24, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
- All the chaff you throw at us makes it hard to tell if there's a real issue in there. That you think that ambiguity works in your favor makes us skeptical of your sincerity. The fact that someone donates has nothing to do with whether some IP or company shill (even from the same company) edits the article. They could do that anyway. The only legitimate accusations - the ones that could stand on their own, if they existed - would be that the WMF Office took actions to skew the article or protect the shills that go outside the stated norms of the community. Wnt (talk) 17:55, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
- The legitimate accusation is that the Wikimedia Foundation is happy to take large sums of money from donors who are disregarding the community guidelines for proper editing of the very project they are donating money to support; and that with the exception of the Belfer Center case, the Wikimedia Foundation has only ever made public statements against specific paid/COI editing situations when it was not a donor. Have you ever seen Planned Parenthood accept a large donation from an anti-abortion activist? - 2001:558:1400:10:982A:1673:FF0D:2920 (talk) 13:30, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
- Are you sure Bell Pottinger never donated? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:20, 13 May 2014 (UTC).
- I am (fairly) sure that they never donated enough money to appear on the Wikimedia Foundation's published list that honors the heavy donors. Happy to be proved wrong, if you want to take the time to research it. - 2001:558:1400:10:982A:1673:FF0D:2920 (talk) 13:30, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
- We should ask them for a donation. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:22, 14 May 2014 (UTC).
- We should ask them for a donation. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:22, 14 May 2014 (UTC).
- I am (fairly) sure that they never donated enough money to appear on the Wikimedia Foundation's published list that honors the heavy donors. Happy to be proved wrong, if you want to take the time to research it. - 2001:558:1400:10:982A:1673:FF0D:2920 (talk) 13:30, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
- All the chaff you throw at us makes it hard to tell if there's a real issue in there. That you think that ambiguity works in your favor makes us skeptical of your sincerity. The fact that someone donates has nothing to do with whether some IP or company shill (even from the same company) edits the article. They could do that anyway. The only legitimate accusations - the ones that could stand on their own, if they existed - would be that the WMF Office took actions to skew the article or protect the shills that go outside the stated norms of the community. Wnt (talk) 17:55, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
- You're saying that a donation to the WMF has never corrupted the editing process on Wikipedia? Are you sure? Look, I completely see what you're saying, Jimbo. You're right, that a donation does not actually or even figuratively grant the donor a special exemption on Wikipedia, in terms of editing. (Although, there have been a couple of cases where I've seen comments like "They just gave the WMF a boatload of money, so we should have an article about them.") However, the fact does remain that the WMF's legal department has sent a cease-and-desist letter to a paid editing firm, and the WMF human resources department has fired an employee for the infraction of non-disclosed paid editing. But other than the Belfer Center fiasco post mortem, we have never, ever seen the WMF make any sort of public comment or provide meaningful feedback about any of the dozens of major donors who are participating in COI and/or paid advocacy editing (some with disclosure, many without). However, the WMF has made all kinds of public comments about firms like Wiki-PR or Bell Pottinger, for doing approximately the same thing as the donors are doing, but they didn't donate anything to the WMF. It is therefore not unreasonable to conclude that one measure of whether the WMF will formally respond to an allegation of COI/paid/advocacy editing or not, is whether the editor has made a financial donation to the WMF or not. Really, would it be so difficult for one of the WMF's legal staff, or even one of the "storytellers" on the payroll, to provide a public statement about how inappropriate it is for donors to the Wikimedia movement to be simultaneously manipulating content about themselves on Wikipedia in ways that skirt or are wholly outside of Wikipedia policy and guideline norms? Is there some reason you or the WMF would decline to do that? - 2001:558:1400:10:8184:2AEA:A020:7890 (talk) 15:24, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
- That doesn't follow. You know as well as I do that the community does not give favoritism to COI edits by donors to the WMF. There is a problem with coping with COI edits overall, but there is not a problem with donations to WMF corrupting the process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:51, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
- If that's 100% false, then you imply that there will be community-initiated repercussions for the COI editing that has been taking place regarding all of the article subjects that Wikipediocracy's series has exposed? Once you show that the Wikipedia community actually takes all of this seriously, and the COI edits are rolled back, and the involved editors are admonished on their Talk pages, then I'm sure that Wikipediocracy would gladly change the title of this blog post, if the title of it is the most disturbing thing you're choosing to react to. - 2001:558:1400:10:8184:2AEA:A020:7890 (talk) 14:35, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Well, after two days, it would appear that not a single editorial adjustment has been made on Mark Amin or MathWorks (or the various articles about its products), so what do we conclude? That Wikipedians will eventually address the problem of COI employee and paid-PR editing, just not now? That Wikipedians do address these problems, just not on these particular cases, because they were brought to our attention by a "troll"? Or, that Wikipedians do address these problems, just not in the cases of financial donors to the WMF? - 2001:558:1400:10:412B:35D4:A950:1B39 (talk) 16:09, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- That Wikipedians are volunteers and don't hop on command. --NeilN talk to me 16:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- Well, you could have fooled me, Neil! Because when attention was called to a PR editor going to town on an article about a company that didn't donate a large sum of money to the Wikimedia Foundation, it only took two days for a Wikipedian to decimate the article with a hacksaw. I think I'll stick with my theory that COI articles about WMF donors are dealt with much more lightly than COI articles about non-donors, but thanks anyway! - 2001:558:1400:10:412B:35D4:A950:1B39 (talk) 16:32, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- I think you can rest assured that it it not the third. Relatively few of us keep up with these donor lists. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:55, 15 May 2014 (UTC).
- I think you can rest assured that it it not the third. Relatively few of us keep up with these donor lists. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:55, 15 May 2014 (UTC).
- Well, you could have fooled me, Neil! Because when attention was called to a PR editor going to town on an article about a company that didn't donate a large sum of money to the Wikimedia Foundation, it only took two days for a Wikipedian to decimate the article with a hacksaw. I think I'll stick with my theory that COI articles about WMF donors are dealt with much more lightly than COI articles about non-donors, but thanks anyway! - 2001:558:1400:10:412B:35D4:A950:1B39 (talk) 16:32, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- Obviously Wikipedia editors don't give a damn who gives money to the WMF; the cases Kohs cites are part of a generally lax attitude to COI editing, to the extent that COI has swamped Wikipedia. Kohs' business model is based on that laxity. So at one point do we say, "enough is enough," hypocrisy is amusing but not that amusing, and start to enforce the rules against socks of banned editors posting here? Coretheapple (talk) 20:01, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
- It is a shame that most admins don't enforce bans, but any editor can enforce it. See WP:NOT3RR
The following actions are not counted as reverts for the purposes of 3RR:
3. Reverting actions performed by banned users, and sockpuppets of banned and blocked users.
When somebody just thumbs his nose at the community, and doesn't pretend that he is editing in good faith or even try to pretend to hide the fact that he is banned, just revert him. I'll ask every editor who knows how Mr. 2001 works to just revert him every time they see Mr. 2001's edits. Admins can even join in! Of course, this is Jimbo's talk page, so if and when Jimbo says that he wants to see Mr. 2001's comments on this page, nobody should revert 2001 here. Smallbones(smalltalk) 21:38, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
- At first I enjoyed bantering with him, even though it was classic troll-feeding. He's a kind of narcissistic guy and to be frank I sort of liked pushing his buttons (I know, my bad). I guess to me what crossed the red line is when he started to become sanctimonious about outing when 1) he has self-outed, 2) He WP:QUACKs like an airport runway-full of Canadian geese and 3) one of his primary off-wiki purposes is to out other editors. At a certain point one goes into "hypocrisy overload" when faced with that kind of behavior. Also it dawned on me that perhaps there was sort of implicit "if you don't hire me I'll expose you" at work here. But you're right, bottom line, this is Jimbo's talk page. If he wants a Constant Hypocritical Presence on his page, that's his privilege. Coretheapple (talk) 21:52, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, and just to be clear, so that new audience members understand what we're talking about, we're talking about a cacophony of WP:DUCKs such as the world has never before seen: Mr 2001 is a very well known very banned editor.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC) Context here. Coretheapple (talk) 22:08, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
- Also when he materializes he should be reported at SPI, and though action has been taken in the past, it's not guaranteed. Still, I think it needs to be done. See, bottom line, he's a banned editor, and if he wants the rules applied, they should be applied to him, especially the one that he doesn't post on Wikipedia. Coretheapple (talk) 11:38, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Arbitrator AGK sending harassing email, makes legal threats
Kumioko is a banned editor with a long history of harassment of other editors, including me. A report to Kumioko's ISP, whether an employer or not, is long overdue.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:48, 18 May 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
You may want to take a look at this. Duke Olav Otterson of Bornholm (talk) 15:30, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
not sure, due to me being different person than AGK. 75* 21:08, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
With precedent."Threat" of action against actual problem. O K. 75* 21:21, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
I think if editors are upset with this email, they should discuss whether Wikipedia should or should not be sending out these notices to anyone, and not just focus on this instance. I think these notices are pretty standard but the focus should be on how to address long-time vandals, especially ones that deluge admins and ARBCOM with email messages saying they have no intention of stopping their disruptive behavior. What would you have admins do in response? Liz Read! Talk! 21:59, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Rules are relative, what is problematic behavior within Wikipedia isn't necessarily problematic in an absolute sense. If I decide to pick up my vacuum cleaner to get rid of an ants nest in my home, I'm probably violating the rules that govern that ants nest. Count Iblis (talk) 23:00, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
Is there any question of whether a government agency can identify who has been editing from any one of its particular computers? These things are usually pretty tightly controlled. —Neotarf (talk) 05:56, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
AGK did not, IMO, make a "legal threat" as in a "threat of litigation" but it is a "threat" in the sense that he is clearly writing with an implicit Arb hat on (Arbs writing sans-toque generally make that clear) - though the issue really seems to be whether this is a "routine email" or not. If it is "routine" we should be told how many precisely similar emails AGK has sent. If this is an "unusual case" (i.e. if it appears AGK does not send such emails as a rule) then the issue becomes far muddier as to intent. And far more concerning. Collect (talk) 14:55, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
Looking forwardI invite those who have expressed concern about AGK's e-mail (meaning the substance underlying it, not just the phrasing) to propose an alternate course of action that would help in putting an end to the disruption. Kumioko's behavior since his community ban, which BASC declined to overturn, has been outrageous. He has had dozens of accounts and IPs blocked by this point. He has publicly stated that he aspires to become "the most prolific vandal, troll and sockmaster in Wikipedia history." He stated, "[s]o now if they want me to be a sockmaster, then fine, I'll pursue that with just as much enthusiasm as I did editing. I know they'll catch me eventually but in the mean time I will be a drain on resources and divert them from being able to do anything else." He has stated, "[s]ince my help wasn't wanted, I'll just distract them with socking and trolling as I find the time. Days or weeks might go by and it may come in waves but it'll be fun." He has aspired to cause numerous innocent editors and would-be editors to be blocked as collateral damage, stating "I'll just be a pain in the ass and a distraction. In the process though a lot of innocent editors will be blocked (several already have), time will be distracted form the project and I'll have some fun. The only way they'll keep me away is if they range block the whole t-mobile and Verison Fios networks. I doubt they have the desire to do that." He added, "[m]aybe they ban editing from the Verizon network or t-mobile. Its hard to say what the long term effects will be, but its not going to be pleasant." In the same vein, "I have gotten 2 range blocks for Verizon Fios which means a lot of people coming from 172 or 208 will need to get an IPblock exemption to edit in which case most of them will assume its me and deny it. 1 for me, 0 for WP. I have also ... distracted several users. Childish perhaps but I am having fun." That was a couple of months ago, soon after he was banned; since then, things have grown worse. Kumioko has repeatedly evaded and deliberately edited around the abuse filters that were written specifically to block his access. He has left taunting and disparaging messages for numerous users. He has indicated that he intends to continue to escalate these activities, never to stop, never to respect his ban under any circumstances. He has repeatedly misused the Echo feature by deliberately pinging dozens of arbitrators, functionaries, administrators and other editors for the purpose of harassing them. He has ignored my warnings that his continued editing is in breach of the Terms of Use, and a lengthy online explanation of how his activities raise legal issues. Yesterday he suggested with pride that he is now "public enemy number one" on Wikipedia.
Multiple arbitrators, functionaries, and others have invested hours of effort in attempts to get Kumioko to stop this behavior. I believe that by now a dozen people have reached out to him both on-wiki and offline, using all sorts of approaches, with no success at all. He seems determined to continue until he goads someone into taking an extraordinary action in response to his behavior, yet now turns around and professes to be shocked, shocked, at someone's warning him that if he, himself, makes the conscious decision to persist, something of that sort might now occur. Like everyone else, certainly including AGK himself and everyone else I've seen comment on this matter, I would much prefer for Kumioko's real-world life and activities not to be affected in any way by what has become his unhealthy obsession with shrieking about alleged administrator abuse on Wikipedia. However, I would also like Kumioko to stop his disruptive and impermissible editing on the project he is banned from. An ISP report would obviously be a last resort, would obviously be controversial, and as important, it might or might not work. Who has a better idea? Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:51, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
AGK's conduct is outrageous, and Wikipedia must take a strong stand against harassing threats of this sort. We are far, far too indulgent towards bullies. Kumioko complains loudly about admin abuse, and we prove his points for him by overreacting and threatening him. I suggest a solution to the problem that might actually work, as opposed to everything else I'm seeing: offer an olive branch and work out a reasonable solution with the guy so he can come back and we can all focus on writing content. Everyking (talk) 00:27, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Has anyone notified Kumioko of this thread? —Neotarf (talk) 06:49, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
The situation is a little close to Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Jim62sch#Threats although both users were in good standing at that time. However FT2 got into hot water for threatening another editor offwiki via threats. This situation is similar. 129.9.104.11 (talk) 13:12, 15 May 2014 (UTC) I will reply to the first question, asking for some alternative action. If the core of the problem is that it may be needed to notify his ISP, but his ISP is also the place where this man works, then none of us Wikipedia users should do that. Either if common editors, admins or arbcom members, we all may lack the knowledge needed to adress a situation like this. The best way to act then is to contact the lawyers of the Foundation and let them talk to the ISP, as they will surely know perfectly well how to write a request that minimizes any potential legal problem for the man while acting upon the editor. And perhaps I will something that may have already been tried, but if the problem is with a sock puppets master, then block not just his account but also the IP from where he had made the accounts. You did so, and he repeated the process in the IP of his workplace? Block that one as well. If it is public, and several unrelated people logs from it, block the IP for registering accounts and all his accounts, and spare the accounts of unrelated users (sock puppet investigations surely know how to set them apart). Yes, he may then try to find some other place to register accounts, get them blocked, go somewhere else... and the game of the cat and the mice will cease when he is eventually tired and finds that seeking unused sources of internet and going through the registering forms would no longer be worth the effort; specially if he finds something else to do in his spare time. Cambalachero (talk) 18:47, 15 May 2014 (UTC) Let's try to find a way backMr Wales, perhaps you could find it in your heart to wipe the slate clean and start over with Kumioko? There's been a tremendous amount of bad blood over this situation. He was a very good editor before the collapse. Good luck. Hell might be other people (talk) 04:21, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Proposal: A way back to solve at least some of thisSimple: AGK resigns from his post on ArbCom.
MoratoriumI think this would be a good time for us to pause this thread, to stop criticizing or commenting on Kumioko, and see what happens next. Kumioko's objective over the past couple of months has been to call attention to what he considers abuses by administrators (including arbitrators) on this project. Clearly he has succeeded in drawing attention to the fact that he is dissatisfied and to some reasons why. Kumioko has e-mailed me complaining that he has been criticized on this page and can't respond here. As a courtesy to him, I point out that Kumioko has responded to the threads on this page in his postings on Wikipediocracy. Anyone interested can find those posts there in the top two threads in the "Governance" subforum. While I obviously disagree with a lot of what Kumioko has written there (not least about myself), anyone interested in his side of the story can read his posts and consider what he has to say. Let's stop talking about Kumioko now and perhaps the overall situation will cool down. Regards to all, Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:35, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Withdrawal of one allegation, with apologyKumioko has denied my statement above that over the weekend, one of his accounts vandalized a BLP. This led me to checkuser that account. It appears that that account was an imposter. I therefore withdraw that allegation. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:29, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
Could you please get involved Mr Wales?I think this situation requires your personal attention. Thanks. Hell might be other people (talk) 15:57, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
|
This discussion is closed. It is completely mistaken to characterize the problem of ongoing harassment of editors a problem of being "persistent about accessing". If you have further questions, I recommend you email them to WMF legal.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:36, 18 May 2014 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I have no questions, but I do have a observation. The real harassment in question here has taken the form of threatening someone's livelihood. Jimbo, you have a responsibility, if you are to have any moral authority here, to take a strong stand against this abuse. We must not treat people this way. Everyking (talk) 21:23, 18 May 2014 (UTC) |
Looking for an opinion on scope of Wikipedia's coverage
After being on Wikipedia for eight years, I could not help, but notice that some topics have an inherent bias against inclusion despite passing WP:GNG. I was wondering if you feel that this encyclopedia was meant to be completely unbiased in coverage and should coverage all notable subjects, or are there topics you feel are unencyclopedic and should have higher GNG requirements that the standard? Valoem talk contrib 22:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
- I would be interested to know which topics have an inherent bias against them. Even your impressions would be interesting. I take it you are referring to AfD (Prod/CSD) rather than the preference for inclusion displayed by article creation. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:30, 13 May 2014 (UTC).
- I find your question confusing. Can you mention some examples of these "topics" that have an inherent bias? This question is a little too abstract to know how to respond to it. Liz Read! Talk! 02:22, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
- I just want to echo others in their request for more details or examples. In principle, I think we should be unbiased in coverage and should cover all notable subjects. But even saying that is too simplistic as it introduces all sorts of complex problems. Musicians, actors, and sports personalities all receive dramatically more popular press than academics, judges, and business people so simplistic models of what counts as notable tend to fail. Like the others who have commented so far, I think your impressions of bias would be interesting for us to chew on. I also think it would be interesting for someone who is clever with scripts to analyze past AfD results on some kind of per-category basis to look for interesting anomalies. (A high ratio of nominations to deletions could be interpreted multiple ways depending on the circumstances, of course. Some things probably get deleted a lot because they are popular fancruft that random newbies start. Other things may get deleted for more deep seated reasons of bias, for example topics that are less known or less interesting to our skewed demographic of editors.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:58, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for getting back to me, I think you have stated many issues I've noticed perfectly. There is a tremendous bias as to what we consider encyclopedic. As an inclusionist, I think, when in question keep and improve, however I see the opposite effect. Many editors appear intent on building a Wiki resume based on deletions with no interest in finding sources, such is the case in the AfD for No call, no show. An example of a topic where bias is inherent is fringe theories, and this is nowhere near the most oppressed topic. The current AfD I am involved in, UFO sightings in outer space (considered the most reliable group of sightings by academics) shows pure IDONTLIKEIT votes despite tons of academic sources documenting such events. The range of bias is extensive, Dieselpunk, was deleted 5 times and was finally restore on it's sixth AfD with minimal improvements, because as I believe, it was always encyclopedic. When the same group of editors repeatedly engage in the same AfD, we are essentially holding a kangaroo trial and this is prevalent throughout Wikipedia. There is one particular topic, which has been systematically dismantled in the past few months, because we refused to accept in topic sources as reliable and consequently the inclusion criteria has been set well higher than that of standard GNG. It is important that every topic has established sources which we accept to be at least partially reliable, especially when the topic receives less coverage in mainstream media. Poker and video game related articles have done an excellent job in establishing this and should set such a precedence to all genres.
- Per DGG, "we cover the world as people see it" even the idiocy, Wikipedia receives half a billion unique visitors per month, only 120,000 are active editors, of the 120,000, many are here to work on specific articles and leave as quickly as they surface. So, if I am correct when taking into consideration users with special permissions, sysops, reviewers, etc. we are looking at about 10,000 consistent editors who can control the flow of information to the rest of the world. In my opinion, these numbers are not high enough
and most editors are Americanand statistics suggest possible bias as to what is accepted here, may exist. Valoem talk contrib 14:42, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
- Per DGG, "we cover the world as people see it" even the idiocy, Wikipedia receives half a billion unique visitors per month, only 120,000 are active editors, of the 120,000, many are here to work on specific articles and leave as quickly as they surface. So, if I am correct when taking into consideration users with special permissions, sysops, reviewers, etc. we are looking at about 10,000 consistent editors who can control the flow of information to the rest of the world. In my opinion, these numbers are not high enough
- I generally agree with Valoem. I just want to add that in the years Wikipedia has seen a slow but definite shift in mindset, from being a young, bubbling "open source" project, with a groundbreaking attitude, to becoming a more and more conservative (in the academic sense, not political) behemoth. This shift has both good and bad consequences. The good is that now we value accuracy and sourcing much, much more than in the past, and as a result WP is overall more and more reliable. The bad is that we are more and more entrenched in making WP look like past reference works, instead of embracing the potential and freedom that the electronic media allow us; and that higher standards make editing much more difficult for new editors. While many of the early editors were in front of basically a blank sheet of paper with few hard and fast rules, now we are a Byzantine bureaucracy where a few editors control the extent of what is deemed "encyclopedic" and what not.
- I would say that in general the overall spirit of a guideline like WP:GNG makes sense inasmuch it asks us that we need to meet minimum conditions so that we are able to write an article. Without secondary RS, we cannot write a reliable article. So GNG, in its original sense, is not much about what we should put in the 'pedia, but more about what we can put in. That is what should guide us: do we have something to rely on for our writing? If yes, we should not have fear of letting it live. Every other consideration is biased. No matter how trivial and bizarre and weird a subject is, it is still a piece of structured knowledge that could benefit someone, one day. It's about collecting the whole of human culture, not only what we, here and now, from our narrow point of view, find noteworthy.
- I feel this has also consequences in terms of our current editors drain. We should make a large scale effort to simplify and streamline all the baroque ruleset that has encrusted through the years, and, while keeping high the accuracy requirements, bring some of the early spirit of WP back. --cyclopiaspeak! 15:02, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
- It is no longer correct to say that the majority of edits or views to even the English Wikipedia come from the US (unless things have gone backwards) this changed round about 2012, IIRC. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:11, 14 May 2014 (UTC).
- It is no longer correct to say that the majority of edits or views to even the English Wikipedia come from the US (unless things have gone backwards) this changed round about 2012, IIRC. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:11, 14 May 2014 (UTC).
I agree with Valoem's and cyclopia analysis. I've long suspected that part of the problem lies in the way content policies have been codified. WP:GNG and WP:RS have been written with the needs of western audiences, and thinking about the level of coverage that western media provide. Proof of that is that we have long established practice of outcomes for keeping articles that are exceptions to the rules, as they don't fully comply with those policies (such as geographic places and schools) but are nevertheless kept because of their interest to the dominant group as a global topic; but for articles of dubious coverage that are of interest to other cultures (Bollywood films and celebrities come to mind, as well as buildings from countries without a thorough online land registry), the full strength of those policies is enforced even when some level of verifiable sources is available.
In order to achieve the original levels of participation, growth and user retention, I believe what's missing is some kind of "beta" space where the rules were not so strict, and article candidates were allowed to grow more slowly without risking deletion, benefiting from multiple collaborators extended in time. AfD should have worked for that, but it is too centered on a single editor building the article in one sitting; and I had high hopes that the new Draft space could fulfill that role, but it still suffers too much from inertia imposed by the community bureaucratic monster.
Now I don't advocate a return to the time of no editorial processes and low quality of content - at least not in the main space. However, a fork of some kind that was clearly marked as unofficial, and being limited to the bare minimum of protective measures (BLPs, vandalism, COPYVIO and the most egregious SPAM) would benefit those people who want to explore the possibilities and capture knowledge from those other cultures, without the baggage of the most subtle aspects of current policy - which, as I said, have been fine-tuned to the necessities and liking of educated netizens from the 2000s. This separate space could develop a new set of rules and a new, young community of members, from the areas of the world that the WMF is targeting. Diego (talk) 18:37, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
- Wow, believe or not I made just recently made that proposal here. Wikiarchive :) Valoem talk contrib 19:00, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
- I can't recall an example of an actual commercial Bollywood film being deleted though articles about unreviewed works by total beginner "directors" are often deleted regardless of nationality. As an active AdD participant, I repeatedly emphasize that this is the English language encyclopedia of the entire world, not the encyclopedia of the English speaking world. And there are reliable newspapers, magazines, books and websites published in almost every country, except the handful of the most unstable. "Everyone knows about it in Dacca (or Dakar)" is no more of a claim of notability than saying that everyone in Sacramento (or Glasgow) knows about it. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Valoem:: Oh, I have no doubt that there must be other people discussing these ideas; they are similar to the perennial proposal to have a soft delete process or trash space with access to the history of non-problematic articles, which has always made sense and has never achieved consensus. Thanks for the link, btw. It has given me some new insights into what kinds of deleted content are the most valuable, and that there's a major error in treating all of it in the same way.
- My proposal is not so much inspired in principle but in pragmatism, taking inspiration in how software projects evolve. In order to release new versions, they require freezing a stable version and creating a new branch where unstable and low-quality edits are composed to build new areas of functionality. Wikipedia has similarly reached the stable state, but by not further allowing it to break, we're at the same time stiffling any potential to grow.
- @Cullen328:: The whole point of an alternate venue is that notability shouldn't be a hard requirement in such alternate space. Knowledge is accumulated in small pieces, and we could gain a lot from compiling verifiable facts from reliable sources that aren't a good fit for any current article. The WP:PRESERVE policy, which is nearly defunct now, could shine again and accomplish its process of slow improvement, in a region away from the spotlight where it wouldn't put us at much risk. Diego (talk) 12:53, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- I can't recall an example of an actual commercial Bollywood film being deleted though articles about unreviewed works by total beginner "directors" are often deleted regardless of nationality. As an active AdD participant, I repeatedly emphasize that this is the English language encyclopedia of the entire world, not the encyclopedia of the English speaking world. And there are reliable newspapers, magazines, books and websites published in almost every country, except the handful of the most unstable. "Everyone knows about it in Dacca (or Dakar)" is no more of a claim of notability than saying that everyone in Sacramento (or Glasgow) knows about it. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:19, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- I would prefer a simpler approach than opening a novel namespace. Simply put, deletionists want a stiff encyclopedia with few entries which are clearly notable and well polished. Inclusionists are more of a "this is a work in progress", horizontal approach, where basically if it can be sourced, it's good to come in. What I would do is simply to assess pages within WP. We already have GA and FAs. We used to have Start,A,B etc. class articles. Whatever. The point is: instead of making it a binary distinction "this goes in ,this goes not", we take most stuff in, but we also assess roughly article notability and quality and give it to the readers. They then decide what they want to read, and are appropriately warned. Instead of bringing articles with few secondary sources to AFD, we can just stick "Warning: This article relies primarily or only on primary sources" or "Warning: This article relies mostly on unreliable sources such as blogs and forums". Readers can then proceed at their own risk. It could also be decided to make such articles not necessarily accessible by default on search, with the reader that can choose what part of WP they want to access. --cyclopiaspeak! 17:55, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- I would prefer that as well, but there's a generalized sentiment that anything without some "trascendental" nature should be excised from the project and buried under a strict no-access regime; I think doing this provides some people with some sense of cleanliness or completion. This is why it makes sense to have a separate space that these people won't find in their day-to-day work.
- Moreover, it's the only way that we could have less stringent rules - anything in main space is evaluated to the letter of law and WP:Ignore All Rules is seen as an exception, instead of the "widely accepted standard that all editors must normally follow" as it should be.
- But maybe you're right, and simply creating filters and leaving out by default everything unassessed or below C-class quality would be enough to satisfy people at all sides of the scale. Diego (talk) 20:03, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- I would prefer a simpler approach than opening a novel namespace. Simply put, deletionists want a stiff encyclopedia with few entries which are clearly notable and well polished. Inclusionists are more of a "this is a work in progress", horizontal approach, where basically if it can be sourced, it's good to come in. What I would do is simply to assess pages within WP. We already have GA and FAs. We used to have Start,A,B etc. class articles. Whatever. The point is: instead of making it a binary distinction "this goes in ,this goes not", we take most stuff in, but we also assess roughly article notability and quality and give it to the readers. They then decide what they want to read, and are appropriately warned. Instead of bringing articles with few secondary sources to AFD, we can just stick "Warning: This article relies primarily or only on primary sources" or "Warning: This article relies mostly on unreliable sources such as blogs and forums". Readers can then proceed at their own risk. It could also be decided to make such articles not necessarily accessible by default on search, with the reader that can choose what part of WP they want to access. --cyclopiaspeak! 17:55, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
To be fair, I think you might mention many of the delete votes at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/UFO sightings in outer space (3rd nomination) were reacting to this version of the article, which leaned so heavily toward dubious fringe rumors from unreliable fringe sources it was difficult to tell if they were even notable. Also, some "academic sources documenting such events" in the earlier version included stuff like Journal of Scientific Exploration, Journal of UFO Studies, and New Frontiers in Science [4]. - LuckyLouie (talk) 20:54, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- That is an exemplary example of the problem. Despite seeing multiple solid sources editors have voted delete because there were issues with a few sources. It's a clean up AfD, which is not what an AfD is. Valoem talk contrib 00:06, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- 10,000 committed editors and 120,000 intermittent editors and 4,514,696 english language articles. Between 40 and 400 articles for each editor to maintain and improve. CONCLUSION: we need to widen the scope so we can get more articles. Um...yeah... SteveBaker (talk) 21:06, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- @SteveBaker: Just to let you know this has nothing to do with my original question. The topic has since diverged, my question was how to deal with inherent bias against articles which just so happens to be discouraging to all editors, not just the new and whether this bias was an original factor, intended from the beginning? Valoem talk contrib 00:35, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- Wait, so your complaint is about specific editors who were biased against specific articles? It sounds like WP:AN/I is the appropriate venue for that kind of complaint. I don't see this as a case for loosening of notability restrictions. - LuckyLouie (talk) 01:50, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- @LuckyLouie: No, there is no complaint, I was looking for input on dealing with bias on Wikipedia, and the scope of coverage. Valoem talk contrib 14:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I was confused. Above you said:
"When the same group of editors repeatedly engage in the same AfD, we are essentially holding a kangaroo trial and this is prevalent throughout Wikipedia."
I was involved in one of the AfD's you mentioned, so I wanted to make sure that if you have a beef with specific editors or group of editors it goes to the proper venue. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I was confused. Above you said:
- @LuckyLouie: No, there is no complaint, I was looking for input on dealing with bias on Wikipedia, and the scope of coverage. Valoem talk contrib 14:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- Wait, so your complaint is about specific editors who were biased against specific articles? It sounds like WP:AN/I is the appropriate venue for that kind of complaint. I don't see this as a case for loosening of notability restrictions. - LuckyLouie (talk) 01:50, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- The idea is to widen the scope so we can get more editors. Diego (talk) 21:56, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- Because it is preferable to sacrifice quality of articles in exchange for quantity of editors. jps (talk) 22:48, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- @QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV: It's a mathematical assumption that higher quantity of editors leads to higher quality of articles. While I believe namespace storage is feasible, it simply will not work on Wikipedia. WMF, instead, should open a different wiki entirely for storage presumably named WikiArchives, which all viewers are aware of possible unreliability. This archive cannot be searched through any search engine to prevent promotionalism and the only requirements for listing is NPOV, non-promotional, and verifiability. We edit for the masses not for ourselves. I think we are discouraging new editors because we have not been open enough regarding education on editing and deleting their work has not helped either.
- Getting back on topic though, I came here wondering if there was any topic Jimbo feels is unencyclopedic and should have higher requirements for listing, I haven't mentioned the topic in question as of yet, but it is being dismantled despite meeting GNG. Valoem talk contrib 23:54, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- Because it is preferable to sacrifice quality of articles in exchange for quantity of editors. jps (talk) 22:48, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
- @SteveBaker: Just to let you know this has nothing to do with my original question. The topic has since diverged, my question was how to deal with inherent bias against articles which just so happens to be discouraging to all editors, not just the new and whether this bias was an original factor, intended from the beginning? Valoem talk contrib 00:35, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- @QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV: The flaw in that argument is that if you need a wider tolerance of article subject in order to attract new editors then it's certain those new editors would want to work on the new articles. Those people won't immediately start to edit our present "core" set of articles. More likely, the core group of editors that we have now will feel obligated to spend time on those newer peripheral articles - and that will further dilute the "core" editor pool working on the present set of "core" articles. The gamble is: "Will the hypothetical newly-attracted editors 'convert' to wanting to work on core articles faster than our existing 'core' editors feel obligated to fix problems in the newly expanded article pool?" I think the answer to that is an obvious big, fat, no! These newly created articles will have been created by newbies - and they'll be on sketchier subjects than we currently allow - that's guaranteed to soak up mountains of time from experienced core editors who are struggling hard to maintain the quality of the encyclopedia as a whole. I could easily see that pushing us into a death-spiral from which we'd never recover. SteveBaker (talk) 00:41, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
I think the answer to that is an obvious big, fat, no!
- I think the answer is an obvious big, fat yes! What you are speaking of is actually how most of most senior editors actually got drawn to Wikipedia, in the old wild days. Imagine it as a giant sandbox. It allows people to contribute, to get an idea of how the wiki process etc. works, and to get involved. And then they can feel more comfortable dipping into the toes of the more bureaucratic, controlled, complex environment of "proper" WP. I think many of them will "convert" easily. Now instead we have created a huge, steep barrier of bureaucracy and checks to new editors, and it is not a surprise editors are decreasing in numbers.--cyclopiaspeak! 01:10, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- @QTxVi4bEMRbrNqOorWBV: The flaw in that argument is that if you need a wider tolerance of article subject in order to attract new editors then it's certain those new editors would want to work on the new articles. Those people won't immediately start to edit our present "core" set of articles. More likely, the core group of editors that we have now will feel obligated to spend time on those newer peripheral articles - and that will further dilute the "core" editor pool working on the present set of "core" articles. The gamble is: "Will the hypothetical newly-attracted editors 'convert' to wanting to work on core articles faster than our existing 'core' editors feel obligated to fix problems in the newly expanded article pool?" I think the answer to that is an obvious big, fat, no! These newly created articles will have been created by newbies - and they'll be on sketchier subjects than we currently allow - that's guaranteed to soak up mountains of time from experienced core editors who are struggling hard to maintain the quality of the encyclopedia as a whole. I could easily see that pushing us into a death-spiral from which we'd never recover. SteveBaker (talk) 00:41, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- FWIW, as one single individual editor here, I think it would be worthwhile for a lot of topics, and individual WikiProjects, to develop pages like Wikipedia:WikiProject Paranormal/Encyclopedic articles and similar pages, listing the items covered in existing reference sources on topics, and the relative amount of space they are given in that print source, as well as any named subsections which might themselves potentially qualify as separate articles. Yeah, I acknowledge that some so-called reference sources lean heavily on the woo side, and that should be taken into account regarding each such source individually. But for articles of the kind being discussed here, which seem to me at least to be of a broad "topical" type, as opposed to say individual movie releases, where notability requirements are more easily applied, they would serve as at least a good starting point for determining what we cover and where.
- And, for topics which might not meet such criteria, I think it would really be in everybody's interests if we could maybe somewhere, maybe WikiNews, get together an article or series of articles dealing with contentious matters from the major relevant "sides". Such pages could be referenced in related articles here, and possibly/probably fairly easily assembles into book form of some sort or other. For a lot of topics of importance but maybe dubious notability, and there are a lot of such topics, that might be the best way to present data on them until and unless notability can clearly be established. John Carter (talk) 18:31, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Concerns the interesting issue of whether that article on a EU decision is better served by linking primarily to the court decision and articles thereon, or ought also include a link to the original material about a non-notable person, on the basis that the Streisand Effect applies and that material is now directly salient for use on Wikipedia about that person. Collect (talk) 18:08, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
- One factor to consider is that in order to fully understand the case - to fully understand what type of material can now be censored from Google's index - the reader has an interest in reading the original. This is, of course, just one factor among many to consider, but for me personally, it is decisive. In terms of the BLP1E issue, it is fairly minimal in my view.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:52, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Collect On the internal issue JW above quite right. An earlier discussion the same page as to whether it's now "lawful" to publish the link given the ruling misconceived. No applicability and in any case it's not "publication" (inserting in a database) that's ruled unlawful but refusing to comply with a (valid) strike request. Nightmare for Google of course. Good thing creating jobs IMHO. Former ArbCom members might well like to apply :).Coat of Many Colours (talk) 01:00, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- "Proper" and "lawful" are two quite distinct issues.
- That we can do something does not mean we ought to do it. Reliance on Wikipedia being non-profit is not relevant -- the question is whether Wikipedia has a sufficient nexus to the EU to allow lawsuits in the EU then having to be addressed by the WMF is a legal matter for the WMF to ascertain, and I would be amazed if it were not being closely examined. And I am unsure that "the reader has an interest in reading the original" any more than readers have any specific reason to need any "original documents" in the first place. Collect (talk) 13:45, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- That's true about original documents. We are looking for secondary sources per policy, however providing that secondary sources are quoted (and the temptation for original research resisted) I don't see any harm in citing the original document. A case in point that occurred in my own editing recently concerned a high profile trial (in the UK) where the sentencing judge made comments that were widely repeated in the press, but not in any systematic way. In that case I thought citing the judge's sentencing remarks worthwhile. Concerning judges' opinions, which are often masterpieces of English prose notable for that in their own right alone (for example Mr. Justice Gray's ruling in Irving v Penguin Books and Lipstadt comes to mind as well as in the same trial the expert testimony of Richard Evans is also very notable), I think editors are justified certainly in citing the documents, though I agree there's a question as to how far they may make commentary on them. I expect that's been debated elsewhere. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 14:26, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Complaint
I would like to make a complaint against the way I've been being treated in Lusophone Wikipedia. A certain editor tried to distort an article to create a dubious association between Nazism and Socialism. I protested against this attempt at manipulation of WP and I was treated like a criminal by administrators. They did not analyze the case, just accused me of things I never did and imposed an endless blockade against me. In short, I was treated like a dog and I feel ashamed.
Yes, it is true that I skirted the partial blockages that have suffered, but I did it because I enjoy writing in WP. I'm not a thug, just want to fight for the quality of the project, but I am always treated like a dog. I can not stand this situation, ask you to interfere with justice and analyze the conditions that led to my many locks. I just want to collaborate in this encyclopedia for the texts have quality and credibiidade. I do not deserve to be lynched that way. I'm tired of being forced to endure a horde of arrogant people gathering against me, help me please.
Sorry fot my bad english. Leandro LV (talk) 08:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
The article creation process
Removed comment from banned user. Smallbones(smalltalk) 15:06, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- At five visits a day I am not certain we should care. Saffron Blaze (talk) 15:04, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- You know, I used to enjoy bantering with this particular banned editor (I don't mean Saffron, obviously, but the one to whom he responded). But when he began participating tendentiously in AfDs of companies that were dumb enough to hire him, brought 3RR cases and otherwise cynically gamed the system, my views have changed. I mean, it's sort of amusing to get a lesson in ethics from a person whose business model is unethical, but that has worn thin just a bit. Especially when he retreats to an external website and goes on about how "funny" it is that he is causing so much disruption and wasting people's time. Coretheapple (talk) 15:39, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- Always nice to see Jimbo's "open door policy" being "enforced". KonveyorBelt 16:52, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, and I always enjoy seeing the policy against banned users editing articles and posting in AfD discussionss and noticeboards being "enforced." Coretheapple (talk) 17:18, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- Obviously this is a troll, but I find the censorship more obnoxious than the troll. There is an uncomfortable truth at the heart of the troll, I think, that an WMF event sponsor had an article about them created after they were announced as being an WMF event sponsor and it was noted on Wikipediocracy that there was no WP article about the event sponsor. Voila! An article appeared. Funny how that works. Sweeping this under the rug because an IP is presumed (via ABF) to be one particular banned editor is unseemly, regardless of whether or not one thinks there was any sort of quid pro quo — which seems highly unlikely... Carrite (talk) 00:54, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe Wikipediocracy ought to find someone other than a banned editor who operates a paid editing mill to be their Chief Ethics Officer. But I will say this: he definitely belies the "we're only trying to improve Wikipedia" line of bullhockey that the paid editing apologists tend to spew out. I mean, editing from a company's computers, disclosing it and his affiliation with the banned editor's paid-editing mill, then saying that he was just wandering by a hotspot, and then still being in that "hotspot" six hours later while he repeats that malarkey. Then tendentiously editing the AfD of the article he was editing, still using the company's computers. Then filing a 3RR report. Then edit-warring here. Then engaging in schoolyard personal attacks in his posts and edit summaries. Then this, then that, making a total fool of himself. It just kind of makes the paid-editing apologists look pretty bad, don't you think, with this guy as their primary goodwill ambassador?
- Then going to an off-wiki site and canvassing the AfD.
- Then, to top it off, somebody like you comes around and weeps bitter tears that there is "censorship" taking place and that we're not "assuming good faith." When the only way we can have this pleasant conversation at all is because the page is semiprotected to keep that nuisance from blundering in here and making a pest of himself yet again. Coretheapple (talk) 03:00, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- http://xkcd.com/1357/ Guy (Help!) 08:51, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Great cartoon. Says it all. Everybody should read it. Smallbones(smalltalk) 11:10, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
SPA and hoisin sauce
Today I went to Talk:Main Page for whatever reason and an editor left a link to hoisin sauce, a term I did not know. When I clicked on the link, the first thing I saw was a glaring advertisement for "Lee Kum Kee Hoisin Sauce" on the top right hand corner, something I detest as a supporter of an advertisement-free Wikipedia, a mark in which the Foundation has great pride as well. I checked the history and found that the editor responsible, User:Kenixho, had also made a similar edit on Plum sauce. I reverted both edits, and then went to WP:SPA to find the appropriate action to take. I am not as optimistic on editorial change as SPA is, and now I'm wondering if an administrator can ban a user for such actions, or in what direction I should focus editors like Kenixho. Earlier today I watched [5] and assuming your position has not changed regarding PR firms, how should I deal with such a user? Seattle (talk) 21:58, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- I have blocked the user indefinitely for blatant advertising. If the problem continues through other accounts, you can raise the problem on the administrators' noticeboard. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:06, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- It was ghastly, but I have to say, when I went to the previous version of those pages, I laughed out loud. Good catch. I think I'll prowl the condiment pages. Coretheapple (talk) 22:08, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- I have to ask, why is File:Lee Kum Kee Hoisin Sauce.jpg for Lee Kum Kee "ghastly" while File:Hoisinpet.jpg for Amoy is considered acceptable? I have a bottle of Kikkoman hoi sin in the fridge at the moment, LKK products are usually too sweet for my liking. Tarc (talk) 22:30, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
I rather urgently need a bit of research help.
This explains it. Best to answer there, to keep the discussion contained.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:45, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- [6]. Email me if you need more details about the ODNB entry.Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:04, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Urhobo cuisine
In the Urhobo people article it says they eat Iriboto, Iriberhare, Okpariku, and Oghwevwri'sha. I can't find anything in a Google search or in Google books for any of these dishes except mirrors with one exception. This source which gives me a snipped view that says "their preparation and consumption such as Ukodo,Oghwevwri,Irhiboto,Ovwovwo,(Ophopho), Okpariku and Amiedi." Is there anyone who can get me the full sentence and preceding sentences? I saw in some sort of WikiNews type update that it was possible to get research assistance directly through Wikipedia to Australian librarians? How do I do that? Any other suggestions are welcome Thanks very much. This is a critically important subject. Candleabracadabra (talk) 15:22, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Candleabracadabra: - Here's a suggestion; why not post to the appropriate talk page? I'm sure Jimbo has a scholarly knowledge of the people of southern Nigeria, but I'm not sure he's going to be able to help on this particular matter. NickCT (talk) 16:15, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Sadly, even the wikiproject pages are rarely attended. Fewer and fewer people are editing because it's been made so difficult and unpleasant here. But I will try your suggestion. The good news it that I think I was able to sort out some of these items. It seems to be an issue of transliteration. Not sure how we came up with the spellings in our article? Maybe original research which is, or was, it's own kind of start when it was allowed back in the glory days. Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:18, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Candleabracadabra: - re "Sadly, even the wikiproject pages are rarely attended" - I see. Well if you're just trying to get more eyes on the topic, it might more appropriate consider Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa or to think about an RfC before visiting Jimbo's talkpage. NickCT (talk) 16:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- That's a good suggestion Nick. I wonder if that project is active? Usually when I try posting to the project pages I get no replies. For example at the Colombia Wikiproject. This seems to be a popular page where I could get some replies and suggestions. I've always wondered why there was no centralized discussion page for general input. It's always seemed so weird to me that it's so challenging to get basic input and ideas. I guess people use the IRC channels for that? I don't know. Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:23, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, I thought about it and the Africa wikiproject is so generalized I don't see how it's any more useful to post there than here? I checked the Nigeria wikiproject page but the posts there don't seem to generate any responses. My question was also seeking a specific answer on how the Australian library project thing works and any other approaches that might be useful for hunting down this kind of thing which I come across frequently. Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:28, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Candleabracadabra: - re "This seems to be a popular page where I could get some replies and suggestions." - Yeah. And 911 is a good number to call if you want attention. That doesn't mean it's always appropriate to dial 911 when you want attention.
- But seriously, the problem you're pointing out is a pretty common one and there are common approaches to dealing with it (which don't include posting to Jimbo's page). If I find stuff like that I typically tag it with a Template:Verify source. If no one does after a couple months, come back and delete it.
- re "Australian library project" - Hadn't heard of that. Don't know. Sorry.... NickCT (talk) 16:34, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Has Jimbo said that we can't use his talkpage to ask for help or ideas with article subjects? He seems to get good results here when he's working through research subjects. Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Candleabracadabra: - "Has Jimbo said that we can't use his talkpage" - No. Jimbo is wise and inviting, and his tent is big. But still, if everyone came here to post on random subjects, the page would get a little busy, don't you think? NickCT (talk) 16:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Has Jimbo said that we can't use his talkpage to ask for help or ideas with article subjects? He seems to get good results here when he's working through research subjects. Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Candleabracadabra: - re "Sadly, even the wikiproject pages are rarely attended" - I see. Well if you're just trying to get more eyes on the topic, it might more appropriate consider Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa or to think about an RfC before visiting Jimbo's talkpage. NickCT (talk) 16:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Sadly, even the wikiproject pages are rarely attended. Fewer and fewer people are editing because it's been made so difficult and unpleasant here. But I will try your suggestion. The good news it that I think I was able to sort out some of these items. It seems to be an issue of transliteration. Not sure how we came up with the spellings in our article? Maybe original research which is, or was, it's own kind of start when it was allowed back in the glory days. Candleabracadabra (talk) 16:18, 19 May 2014 (UTC)