Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment

Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

• Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
• Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

To file a clarification or amendment request: (you must use this format!)

1. Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
   • Click here to file a request for clarification of an arbitration decision or procedure.
   • Click here to file a request for amendment of an arbitration decision or procedure (including an arbitration enforcement action issued by an administrator, such as a contentious topics restriction).
2. Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
3. If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use {{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}} to do this.
4. Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.

This is not a discussion. Please do not submit your request until it is ready for consideration; this is not a space for drafts, and incremental additions to a submission are disruptive.

Arbitrators or Clerks may summarily remove or refactor discussion without comment.

Requests from blocked or banned users should be made by e-mail directly to the Arbitration Committee.

Only Arbitrators and Clerks may remove requests from this page. Do not remove a request or any statements or comments unless you are in either of these groups. There must be no threaded discussion, so please comment only in your own section. Archived clarification and amendment requests are logged at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Clarification and Amendment requests. Numerous legacy and current shortcuts can be used to more quickly reach this page:

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Clarification and Amendment requests

Request name	Motions	Case	Posted
Amendment request: Falun Gong.	none	none	24 August 2016
Amendment request: Infoboxes	none	(orig. case)	29 August 2016

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Requests for clarification and amendment

Amendment request: Falun Gong.

Initiated by PCPP at 05:34, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

WP:FLG-A.

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Wikipedia:Arbitration_ Committee/Discretionary_ sanctions/Log/2011#Falun_Gong
2. Link to the principle, finding, remedy, section, etc for which you are requesting amendment

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• PCPP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Information about amendment request

• Wikipedia:Arbitration_ Committee/Discretionary_ sanctions/Log/2011#Falun_Gong

• I request the sanction be lifted

• Link to the principle, finding, remedy, section, etc for which you are requesting amendment

• State the desired modification

Statement by PCPP

I was previously topic banned in 2011 from editing the Falun Gong articles wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_ Committee/Discretionary_ sanctions/Log/2011#Falun_Gong for at least one year, after which I could appeal. Currently I have no further desire to edit the FLG articles, however, since it is mentioned in many of the China related articles, I wish to have the freedom to edit the articles without triggering a violation.

Furthermore, I would have to have the rights to file cases against users who I find might violate the FLG arbitration case. Last month, I filed a case incorrectly without appealing my own topic ban [1] , which resulted in a temporary block.

Statement by Hijiri88

I find it suspicious that PCPP has two TBAN-violation blocks in his log but has only made only 246 mainspace edits since the ban was imposed. Additionally, it would seem that a number of edits that went unnoticed (did not result in blocks) were also violations, as they edited articles with "Falun Gong" in the titles 20 times between February 2011 and October 2011 but were not blocked until January. There was apparently a hubbub following these violations that resulted in several other editors being TBANned, but I have not figured out how PCPP avoided getting blocked.

Typically, the way one goes about appealing a TBAN is to demonstrate one is capable of working on building an encyclopedia in a constructive manner without violating the ban, but in this case it appears PCPP continued editing as though nothing had happened, then once they were finally blocked continued making piecemeal edits for a couple of months before essentially dropping out of the project for four years and coming back to get blocked for violating the TBAN and immediately appealing it.

@PCPP: Can you explain why you think your TBAN was put in place in the first place and why you have barely edited Wikipedia since your TBAN was enforced?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:45, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish

Looks to me like a clear-cut case of biding time until allowed back into the same fray. If the editor was not interested in getting back into Falun Gong editing, they wouldn't be trying to pursue Falun Gong-related grievances, and would have done something constructive on the encyclopedia in the intervening time. Looks like a WP:NOTHERE / WP:5THWHEEL matter to me. I'm not unsympathetic to feeling one has been wrongly accused and taking a long break, having been in that boat once myself, but the editor isn't even making that case. Just vanished for years and is now back arguing about FG again while disavowing an intent to get into FG matters. Seems just like yelling "I am not yelling!", which is funny in a comedy but not in real life.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:28, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Falun Gong.: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Falun Gong.: Arbitrator views and discussion

• OK, not a lot of community comment here, but that's understandable given the activity levels involved. PCPP, it appears that you haven't made a mainspace edit since December 2013, and your only recent activity consists of attempting to file a complaint in violation of your topic ban. Given that you say one of the reasons you want your sanction lifted is so you can file complaints, I'm not inclined to grant this request. I suggest reacquainting yourself with the encyclopedia after your time away by doing some editing in mainspace in an unrelated topic area and filing a new appeal after six months of productive contributions. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:54, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
• Per Opabinia, lifting a topic ban so that someone can file complaints is not to anyone's benefit. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 04:14, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
• Decline per my colleagues above. Doug Weller talk 16:53, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
• Decline. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 17:41, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
• Decline as above. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 20:33, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
• Decline. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:51, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
• Decline per above. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:26, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

---

Amendment request: Infoboxes

Initiated by Dane2007 at 06:40, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Infoboxes arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Decorum
2. Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Use_of_infoboxes

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Dane2007 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Cassianto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• FourViolas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Laser brain (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• We hope (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SchroCat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• clpo13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• Cassianto
• FourViolas
• Laser brain
• We hope
• SchroCat
• clpo13

Information about amendment request

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Decorum

• I am requesting a modification to include a restriction on any bludgeoning type behavior on all types of Infobox discussions.

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Use_of_infoboxes

• General sanction for entire community on Infobox related RfC discussions with a limit of two posts including initial post. Any expansion beyond a minor expansion or clarification of an existing statement would be considered a second post.

Statement by Dane2007

There have been several AN/I requests regarding Infoboxes with limited administrator involvement due to unclear expectations of what is or is not enforceable. This is the most recent AN/I that was opened regarding the conduct of users participating in Infobox discussions/RfCs. This AN/I request was closed suggesting a filing to ArbCom requesting Discretionary Sanctions. This AN/I case was never officially closed but also included heated debate over Infoboxes which sparked a further AN/I discussion. The "infobox wars" as they have been referred to are causing discontent within the community and further restrictions are necessary to prevent these continued issues from repeating as they did in the example above. Involved users on all sides of the debate are guilty of the behaviors in which amendments are being requested. An amendment and/or clarification would allow for enforcement and provide two paths for infobox related discussions:

• Path 1: General discussion on talk page with no restrictions on post limits or replies. This would be discussions as they are typically carried out today.
• Path 2: Move to RfC venue for outside eyes and community input. General sanction would apply and no more than two posts would be made. This would allow community input on specific articles and prevent disruptive behavior from parties on both sides of the issue.

It is my hope that with this amendment request we as a community can move towards a productive resolution on this issue. The parties listed above as involved have been part of one or more of the AN/I's above.

Statement by FourViolas

I have no emotional investment in the "infobox wars", but I was recently so dismayed at the incivility of one user in an IB-related dispute that I filed one of my first AN/I reports. I thought it would be a clear-cut case, but many experienced editors commented that action against this user was inappropriate because I was overlooking a long history of bitterness on both sides. If the situation is so bad that an editor can admit to being disruptive (by being uncivil enough to discourage third parties from commenting; [2]) and escape sanction because this is apparently not out of the ordinary for this issue [3], ArbCom clearly needs to intervene.

Dane2007 chose two remedies which gained some support in the discussions, and I wouldn't oppose them; however, I think a simpler and more effective amendment would be simply to make Infoboxes#Decorum enforceable by discretionary sanctions. WP:Bludgeoning (an essay) is already forbidden under Infoboxes#Decorum (disruptive point-making, harassment, NPA), but is not being enforced; and AN/I participants have expressed concern that the two-post restriction could be gamed.

@SchroCat: I'm sorry to hear you're considering leaving the project. The filer invited you to add parties if you feel other editors need to be involved [4]. FourViolas (talk) 12:11, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Laser brain

I appreciate the filer's attempt to address the ongoing infobox problems by filing an amendment request. However, the request is misguided and targets one of the symptoms (endless discussion) without addressing the problem. Limiting people to two comments might quiet the noise, but certainly doesn't solve the issue. The only responsible remedy is to authorize discretionary sanctions for the infobox domain. If someone is being disruptive, an AE request can be filed and it can be handled by uninvolved admins. We need an end to the never-ending disruptions on article Talk pages and AN/I, right now. --Laser brain (talk) 10:48, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by SchroCat

I wasn't going to bother with a statement (particularly given the rather odd selection of 'cast list'—all from one 'side' of the debate, which speaks volumes about wishing to punish, rather than bringing the situation to a constructive close). But after what appears to be an organised push on a series of articles (both without IBs and on other matters) by a small number of tendentious tag-teamers highly active in the IB fields or as the self-appointed Guardians of the MoS, I have been winding down recently (just getting the inestimable Josephine Butler through FAC first, if anyone is interested in reading about a proper struggle) prior to leaving.
My decision to leave WP has been accelerated because an admin (a fucking admin, for crying out loud) questions my mental health because I am not in favour IBs; I know it's time to move on when such shoddy and despicable accusations are made by someone who is "expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others".
I'm out of here either when my role as an FLC delegate finishes in a couple of months, or when my two FLCs and one FAC have come to an end, and the final article on which I am working has gone through FAC. You all have fun without me when I'm gone, but while the tendentious MoS wall-of-text merchants continue to wear down opposition with their relentless grind, this and related matters where the MoS is out of step with good practice (like quote boxes – a future battleground for the MoS Warriors) small MoS-driven outbreaks of aggression and disruption will continue to act like a cancer in isolated pockets. Pip pip – Gavin (talk) 11:58, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

@FourViolas: I've already advised the filer to do it properly: if they want to leave it malformed and so obviously biased, there is less chance anything will happen. – Gavin (talk) 12:17, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by clpo13

Clearly, ArbCom needs to do something about infoboxes. The current situation is untenable and will only lead to more of these disputes. I agree with those who have suggested that discretionary sanctions should be authorized to enforce decorum and prevent bludgeoning of good faith participants in infobox discussions (whether to add or remove them). I don't know why the issue is so contentious, but it is, and ignoring it isn't going to make it go away. clpo13_(talk) 16:20, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Further: I don't know if anything can be done to prevent infobox disputes entirely (short of mandating/banning infoboxes or, preferably, going the CITEVAR/ENGVAR road), but we can at least make them less likely to drive people away from the project entirely. I can understand the frustration that long-time editors can feel when the issue keeps getting brought up time and again, but editors who may happen along an article without an infobox can't be expected to know the entire history of the infobox wars and shouldn't be bitten for trying to add one or asking why there isn't one, especially if there is no previous discussion about it on the talk page. The use of hidden text can help with that so long as such text points to a pre-existing consensus. clpo13_(talk) 21:11, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by SMcCandlish

Support first proposed remedy (no WP:BLUDGEONing, a form of WP:DE), oppose the second (2-post rule). Stifling discussion generally is not the answer. The habit of certain editors of bludgeoning to death various infobox discussions can be dealt with at ANI. The discussions themselves often necessitate a fair amount of pro and con about what an infobox might bring to an article or how it might be superfluous, so "muzzle everyone" is not an appropriate direction to take. The first of two principal problems in these discussions is not the length of the thread, but the repetitive badgering behavior. Regardless, this aspect of the matter is not really an ArbCom issue.

Authorize discretionary sanctions. The second and more serious problem, as I pointed out at ARCA only about two weeks ago, is definitely an ArbCom issue, and it is the increasing and seemingly unstoppable artillery barrage of incivility in these discussions, which has nothing to do with post length or frequency. This smear-all-who-disagree-with-my-faction behavior is not being brought by any parties to the original WP:ARBINFOBOX. It's "Infobox Wars: The Next Generation". We don't need a new generation of disruption, and the only reason we have one is because WP:ARBINFIBOX is basically toothless without WP:AC/DS in play. DS is enabled for "style" issues generally (the WP:ARBATC case), but this dispute isn't quite a style one; it's a content arrangement and presentation dispute. The difference is distinguishable enough that AE will not act on such a dispute under ARBATC, but it's so nearly the same in motivation, tenor, and WP:LAMEness that ArbCom has good reason to apply the same remedy. As I noted at ARCA last time, if DS isn't going to be made available, then a WP:ARBINFOBOX2 is the only likely outcome (a case I've already prepared, other than there's about 5x more evidence than is actually permitted to be included, so I'd have to trim it [update: and two obvious parties have suddenly said they're leaving WP].  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC) Updated:  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:18, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Curiously, despite disagreeing with Thryduulf's skepticism of broad usefulness of i-boxes (I use mobile devices frequently as a reader rather than editor, and the i-boxes are very useful on them, if they are not full of trivia), I still agree with every single other thing that editor said below. The dispute doesn't really seem to be a pro-infobox versus anti-infobox thing in most cases, but rather an "I can edit any article I want, dammit" versus "don't mess with my FA"/"don't challenge this wikiproject's scope authority" matter. It's not limited to infoboxes at all, but affects all sorts of things, including decorative quotation templates, "in popular culture" material, external links, citation formatting, etc. It's just mostly a civility nightmare when it comes to infoboxes.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:43, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Concur with with Jytdog that SV's proposal to extend the Sortan remedy to include infoboxes would be ArbCom making policy; that decision is citing existing WP:fooVAR guidelines, not making up new ones. And CITEVAR should not be a model for anything, given how many lame disputes it causes rather than prevents. The problem with applying such an approach to i-boxes: all those fooVAR and barRET[AIN] guidelines are about changing from one style to another for no real reason; this is about adding or deleting material for real reasons, so the comparison is twice-faulty.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:51, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

MoS could address infoboxes better: Many editors on all sides of this (there aren't just two) believe MoS should have a section on why/when to [not] include an infobox, and what to [not] put in it. This would be challenging to develop, but it would surely be helpful, in the way that guidelines about navboxes have been.
Technical solutions that could reduce certain clusters of dispute: A) hidden-text infoboxes, not too unlike the old PersonData, that emit the metadata without visually changing the article. B) Wide landscape images could be handled by a |landscape=y that put the image above the infobox frame (or kept it in place, but expanded the frame only around the image – harder to code) and otherwise kept the i-box the same width. Just thinking along the lines of what MoS's lead says about writing around disputes to moot them.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:18, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Thryduulf

I think the Committee has the following choices:

1. Authorise discretionary sanctions for Infoboxes per the repeated requests, accepting that the original case and the review have failed to solve the problems.
2. Accept another infoboxes case, accepting that both the original case and the review have failed to solve the problems.
3. Watch the disruption to the project continue.
4. Bury your heads in the sand and pretend there is no continuing disruption to the project.

The current discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests should be added to your required reading lists before choosing. Thryduulf (talk) 15:41, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

@Opabinia regalis: I've not yet seen an argument that convinces me that the vast majority of article types are suitable for an infobox, and can't think of an argument that would convince me otherwise. To me arguments about aesthetics are all about what the content of the infobox should be - what fields it should have, what (if any) image it should have and where images not suitable for the infobox but desirable to have in the article are located relative to it. The latter questions are ones that are only suitable for discussion on an article-by-article basis as they depend on the nature and dimensions of images, the length and organisation of the prose and what is notable about the individual subject (e.g. what is trivial information about one person is key to the notability of another - that Tony Blair plays the guitar is not really relevant to his infobox but it absolutely is for Eric Clapton). The issue comes from my approach of "let's discuss what the infobox on this article should contain and how it should be formatted" clashing with "I do not want to have an infobox on this (class/type of) article" - sometimes (but alas not always) the latter comes with reasoning that can be discussed. That reasoning usually boils down to either "an infobox that is poorly formatted/overly long/contains misleading or inaccurate information would degrade the quality of the prose therefore there should not be an infobox" (I agree with the first part of the argument but strongly disagree that the conclusion follows the premise) or "all the information is in the prose therefore there is no need for an infobox" (which misses that a Wikipedia article serves many different audiences seeking different things in different ways and omits completely the value of metadata). Sometimes unfortunately the arguments still just boil down to "I don't like infoboxes (on my article)".

In addition to RexxS' response to you, part of the problem is with differing approaches to Wikipedia - some people invest a lot of time and energy into getting a relatively few articles to GA and FA status and maintaining them at that level; other people invest equal time and energy into the project but distributed over getting and maintaining many more articles to a lower standard, sometimes by focussing on one or a few specific aspects. There is sometimes the feeling that the efforts of the latter group are less appreciated generally and/or by those of the first group and their views are not given equal weight when there is a divergence of opinion (whether this is true or not, it is the perception). Thryduulf (talk) 12:36, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

@Gorillawarfare: in my experience, when there is agreement to have an infobox (either after discussion or because it's uncontroversial) and the subject is not opera or classical music, the discussion about what the infobox should include is almost never uncivil and almost always very productive even if there are significant disagreements (i.e. it's like the significant majority of other aspects of Wikipedia).If the subject is opera or classical music* then the likelihood of a civil, productive discussion drops very significantly. It is normally discussions of whether to have an infobox in the first place that are the really problematic ones, and in the opera and classical music fields* these discussions are even more likely to be contentious and poorly conducted than those elsewhere.

 * in my experience these are the significantly most problematic areas, but my experience is not necessarily representative of the whole totality of the problem. Thryduulf (talk) 12:55, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

@GorillaWarfare: fixing ping. Thryduulf (talk) 12:56, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

The entire dispute is bizarre, since both sides in each successive fight are usually long-term Wikipedians with large numbers of edits making substantial improvements to articles - but I guess that applied all along to the infobox wars.

Circular argument, ownership and assumptions of bad faith are currently much in evidence, and it's pretty clear that some (most, by my quick overview, but that could be sampling error) of the repeat combatants have fixed positions and do not decide on an article-by-article basis.

I endorse the proposal to invoke discretionary sanctions, the two-post proposal is novel but I can think of a number of potential pitfalls and ways of gaming it, and doing nothing is not good for anyone other than whoever sells us disks for the servers. Guy (Help!) 15:52, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Seraphimblade

I entirely endorse the request to add discretionary sanctions to this area. Blocks are a blunt tool unlikely to do anything but inflame the dispute. The more nuanced enforcement offered by discretionary sanctions might be able to cut back the nastiness and vitriol, and failing that can remove the worst actors from the topic. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by SlimVirgin

Please authorize discretionary sanctions. In the meantime, I wonder whether the MoS DS could be used (authorized in 2012 in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation), given that infoboxes are a style issue; see MOS:INFOBOX and this subsection for advice about including them. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

To pick up on Jytdog's point and my earlier post on another page, it would help if (in addition to authorizing DS; those are needed more than anything) the ArbCom would simply add "and infoboxes" to the first sentence of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Sortan#Preferred styles (2006):

Wikipedia does not mandate styles in many different areas; these include (but are not limited to) American vs. British spelling, date formats, and citation style. Where Wikipedia does not mandate a specific style, editors should not attempt to convert Wikipedia to their own preferred style, nor should they edit articles for the sole purpose of converting them to their preferred style, or removing examples of, or references to, styles which they dislike.

That decision dealt very effectively with the edit warring over several style issues. The same approach is needed for infoboxes, and while it's clear that the Sortan decision can be applied, adding "and infoboxes" would make it explicit.

Having done that, the ArbCom could (as Jytdog suggests) ask the community to organize an RfC to determine whether the community does want to "mandate a specific style" when it comes to infoboxes. SarahSV ^(talk) 21:32, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog, an INFOBOXVAR would have to say a good deal more than that; and I do agree that that should be developed by the community. Adding "and infoboxes" to that decision would simply make explicit what is already there, namely that infoboxes are a style issue covered by the MoS, and that the MoS regards them as optional. Note (bold added): "Wikipedia does not mandate styles in many different areas; these include (but are not limited to) ...". The principle is that editors should not be edit-warring over optional styles.

But I wouldn't want to suggest anything that might complicate and delay the authorization of discretionary sanctions. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Jytdog

I entirely agree with SlimVirgin above - this is a style matter and please do authorize DS. I do not think it is within Arbcom's scope to resolve the deeper question of project-wide guidance on infoboxes, as the 2013 Arbcom recognized in this remedy: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Community_discussion_recommended. I suggest that the remedy be re-iterated and amended to more tightly focus the discussion - namely, recommend that the community hold an RfC to determine whether infoboxes should be treated per article like CITEVAR or whether they should be treated as a "mandated" style element, project-wide, that cannot be idiosyncratically opposed on a per article basis. I lay this out in more detail here. Jytdog (talk) 20:42, 30 August 2016 (UTC) (amend... don't mean to be so draconian... Jytdog (talk) 21:49, 30 August 2016 (UTC))

• User:RexxS the importance of recognizing this as a style issue (especially in the eyes of the infobox opponents, who, as far as I can tell, see them as hideous), is to understand that the dispute is not amenable to reason; matters of style are not rational. Have people discuss it over a drink and you are more likely to get fistfights than reasoned discussion. It is not a content thing - it is a matter of how content already in the article is presented, which is ...style. Jytdog (talk) 22:19, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

• I do not agree with User:SlimVirgin's additional comment above, that it is within Arbcom's scope to apply the CITEVAR option to infoboxes. That moves into policy-making, in my view. Jytdog (talk) 22:25, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

• User:Ealdgyth I did not say that infoboxes should be mandated; do not attribute that position to me. Jytdog (talk) 23:00, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by RexxS

I disagree entirely with Jytdog and Sarah above. ArbCom has repeatedly taken the position that infoboxes are part of the content of an article, not a mere style decision, as I've explained in a post elsewhere. Infoboxes contain a structured collection of key facts relevant to an article, and "key facts" are indisputably content.

Having said that, I would like to see an end to the clashes between the two sides on the infobox wars. What I would like to know is how does anybody think that discretionary sanctions are going to work in this case? [Clerk removed personal attack – Kevin (alt of L235 · t · c) 14:39, 1 September 2016 (UTC). You'll just have to imagine a vivid description of the Wild-West antics of some admins resulting in us losing good editors] Or are we going to see good content editors being topic banned from the topics they spend so much time stewarding? Without some direction as to the outcomes we want, it's equivalent to giving the prefects bigger straps to hit the juniors with.

What we need is behaviour modification. That takes two elements: the carrot and the stick; what Jerry in Zoo Story calls "the teaching emotion". The sanctions used so far ("stick only") have merely served to entrench the two camps. Not only that but we now have SMcCandlish's "The Next Generation" - a new swathe of editors taking up the pre-defined positions in the current round of disputes. The only way forward I can see is if we can build on whatever common ground we can, rather than dig it away to form the ranks of battle. That's when it starts to get personalised. If I could just get all the disputants together, face-to-face over a drink of their choice, we could go a very long way to taking the sting out of the incivility we currently see. But that's not going to happen - although the offer is always open - so are there any other possibilities?

I'd like to see each side be able to find some "carrot" in any proposed solution. How about we get rid of hidden comments forbidding infoboxes ("carrot" for the pro-boxers)? but in return, wherever there's an amicable discussion of whether or not to have an infobox, the decision becomes binding and unchallengeable for a period of six months, or a year, or whatever, ("carrot" for the anti-boxers)? If you don't build in something that rewards civil debate, I'm willing to bet that you'll make incivil debate the more likely outcome. --RexxS (talk) 22:07, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: There are a lot more reasons than aesthetics for some of our very best editors to oppose an infobox in certain articles. One perennial problem is that fine editors like SchroCat and Cassianto, who do their best to steward articles that they have nurtured through the FA process, find that their decision not to include an infobox on a particular article is repeatedly challenged by other editors, fresh to the article, who don't share their reasons, or perhaps don't have insight into them. They find that wearing and I'm not surprised. I'd like to find some way of lessening that burden without throwing away the principle that "anybody can edit".

As for fisticuffs, my experience in meeting other Wikimedians (and I've met a lot of them) is this. Given the choice between: (1) letting me buy them a beer while listening to me apologise for losing my cool and being rude to them; and (2) starting a fistfight (given I'm 6 ft tall, 230 pounds, and grew up in a tough neighbourhood); everybody so far has picked (1). It must be the healing power of good beer. --RexxS (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

@Opabinia regalis: You're asking the question in exactly the wrong place. The only people (hopefully) who are watching this section are the ones who are invested in the infobox debate and are unlikely to change their minds for the following reasons. The decision on whether an infobox represents an improvement or not depends on a much larger range of factors than almost any other I'm aware of on the encyclopedia, including: aesthetics; the emission of microformats; the problems of trivia being stuffed into infoboxes; the value of an at-a-glance summary of key facts; huge infoboxes dominating a tiny article; avoiding searches for a single piece of key information that's not in the lead; the inability to have a big landscape lead image without making the infobox unreasonably wide; and many more. Each editor will give a different weight to each factor, so there is no argument that all of the regular participants have not seen and already weighed up as important or not.

The situation is made worse by an imbalance in the two camps: there are a couple of relatively small groups of editors who have spent much of their time on Wikipedia improving articles to FA standard. They share a common dislike of infoboxes in certain disciplines, notably theatrical biographies and classical music, principally (I believe) for aesthetic reasons. They tend not to be concerned with the technical aspects of infoboxes in providing metadata and re-use by third parties. That is a perfectly reasonable stance. There is another group of technically-minded editors who give less emphasis to aesthetics and much more to the technical advantages. That is also a tenable stance, but neither side is likely to convince the other to change their mind. The asymmetry occurs because the former group have invested a lot of time and effort in improving a particular article and try to act as stewards for those articles. The current round of disputes have flared up because uninvolved editors sometimes see an article, often an FA, that has no infobox and either add one or request one on the talk page. This causes a burden for the stewards of the article who feel they have to explain their nuanced decision not to have an infobox time-and-again. Unfortunately this sometimes leads to a failure in civility, and quite often draws in more editors from the two camps, not only arguing about the infobox decision, but also whether editors who have never edited the article before should be allowed to raise such a sensitive issue. Many of the latter camp will conclude that in those cases the stewardship has crossed the line into ownership. My own recent involvement has been in supporting an uninvolved editor who challenged the presence of hidden text which prohibited the addition of an infobox to several articles. That's the way in which this poisonous dispute is able to spread from the original locus. We're going to need some means of accommodating both camps, so that each feels they have something to gain, bearing in mind there's no compromise available in a binary decision like having an infobox or not having one. --RexxS (talk) 19:36, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Alanscottwalker Statement

I have not been really involved in all this (except on your talk page, interestingly enough), but I have not seen any current consensus on whether Infoboxes are style or substance or both (see also, WP:CONTENT), so that may be an open question. But can't you strongly encourage whomever to go to mediation to construct RfC's for the community to adopt, perhaps modest default rules guidelines or something like that? (You've done that before on contentious issues). Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:23, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Ealdgyth

I take Rexx's statement as somewhat spot on, but I'm with Sarah and Laser Brain. I, however, disagree with the idea by Jytdog, that infoboxes should be mandated. I'm generally slightly pro-infobox - most articles I start have them - but there are a few articles I've worked on that they won't work on, in my opinion. (See Middle Ages, Jersey Act, Carucage, or Gregorian mission). Many above are correct that there is too much personalization... but I'm not sure an RfC is going to be any more productive. I don't think DS can hurt IF they are used for the personalizations and extreme-battleground behavior that exists. Certainly something has to give. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:54, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Mike Christie

Opabinia Regalis is right to say that there is no consensus that infoboxes are a style issue, but I think this is a symptom, rather than a cause, of the different views, and I don't think those underlying views can be brought to a consensus. The two sides' preferred solutions flow from that point: if it's stylistic, it's up to the discretion of the first significant contributor; if it's content, no editor should be allowed to arbitrarily exclude it. If Arbcom can find a workable solution that bypasses settling that point, they're worth their pay, or would be, if they were paid.

Below are some requirements I feel any solution has to have. I posted a version of these at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests and have trimmed them a bit. I tried to make these neutral with the hope that at least both sides might agree on the requirements, if not the solution itself.

1. Fairness. It has to apply equally to the addition and removal of infoboxes.
2. Permanence. It has to make clear how permanent a decision is, in order to prevent a recurrence of the discussion wasting more time. When and how can an infobox decision for an article be revisited?
3. Article quality. Any solution has to acknowledge that there's a difference between adding or removing an infobox to a stub, and doing the same to an article that has had a lot of work and thought put into it, particularly if that article has been through a review process. This would be true for any edit; it's not more true for infoboxes, but it is true, and has to be remembered.
4. Participation. It has to address the concern that "uninvolved" editors will show up to add their opinions to any discussion. And when I say "address", I don't mean "disallow" or "allow"; I just mean the solution has to clearly say whether this is OK, and if not, how it will be stopped or remedied.

Montanabw made some comments in response to these points at the WT:A/R thread that are worth reading. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:05, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

@User:Opabinia regalis: you asked what would make an editor change their mind about infoboxes on an article. I don't think there are any participants in this discussion who think every article should have an infobox, nor any who think no articles should have one. (For that reason I'd like to find better terms than "pro-infobox" and "anti-infobox".) Hence it's not about infoboxes per se, it's about the context. For myself, if I think the information is not misleading (usually by inaccurate summarization) and is important (date of birth is clearly important, for example) I'm OK with including one, though if those restrictions limit the box only to information easy visible in the first one or two sentences I would usually opt not to have one. Two examples, both of which I nominated at FAC: Offa of Mercia has an infobox which is clearly beneficial; Amazing Stories does not and should not.

With regard to a solution, I am certain that discretionary sanctions will not work, if by "work" we mean that editors on both sides will be more productive as a result. Until we get a ruling (via Arbcom or via a community RfC) that settles, not the behaviour issue, but the underlying question of what rules apply to discussions about whether to add or remove an infobox, this will not be resolved. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:34, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Cullen328

I support the request to add discretionary sanctions to the infobox controversy. Whether or not infoboxes are a style issue or a content issue strikes me as unimportant and secondary to the need to stop the ongoing, persistent disruption which includes incivility. Any such effort will be successful only if enforcement is thoughtful, fair, restrained and even-handed. Sadly, otherwise highly productive editors who are both "pro" and "anti" infoboxes have been drawn into these protracted, repetitive, lengthy and disruptive disputes. Giving uninvolved administrators the power to topic ban editors who repeatedly persist in disruptive, uncivil behavior regarding infoboxes would be a useful tool, as I see it. To be clear, the topic ban I propose would apply only to infoboxes, not to the articles as a whole. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:47, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by LaughingVulcan

I have refrained from commenting so far, as I feel too close to some of the heat in one of the germinating articles - both giving and receiving. However, in going through the history of this I noted that there was a recommendation from Arbcom in the original case that there should be, "...a well-publicized community discussion be held to address whether to adopt a policy or guideline addressing what factors should weigh in favor of or against including an infobox in a given article." I managed to miss the infobox wars case during a long period of wikibreak/IP editing. Thank God. Was that discussion ever held to anyone's knowledge? I think I see and agree that it is not up to Arbcom to hold such discussion, but did any neutral party actually do that? And also I am not positive that any amount of discussion may bring peace in our time. Yet that too could be tried if it hasn't happened. If no, how could one go about starting that? Last, if discussions were held, what conclusions were reached and would some sort of banner link to them in any IB local article dispute help? None of this is meant to be a yes/no opinion on discretionary sanctions. Maybe any such community discussion should be preemptively placed on DS if held, though. LaughingVulcan 14:57, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

@Opabinia regalis, point three I still consider myself an outsider, this have been my first experience on Infobox discussion. But a good survey of the readership, or an RfC or vote of the editorship (as in Infoboxes Remedy 4.3.7 or similar,) or an office action would be objectively empirical evidence for me. In the matter of Infoboxes, anecdotes or lone opinions generally won't change minds IMVHO, nor will article stewards' opinions if one differs with them. At least the ones I saw didn't persuade me to difference in the case at hand, even though many were well written and I reread the RfC and article this morning. Which leaves nose counting, no consensuses, and deferment to status quo ante. Speculation: Maybe if the RfCs were restructured to have "yes/no/comment" subsections collective opinions of either side might be more persuasive.

A collapse of my reasoning

The encyclopedia serves the readership. Evidence of how the readership wants to be served works - not anecdotal opinions about how the whole readership feels or might feel. Nor that a steward's opinion of the article is have/not have a box when I can't agree that layout is harmed or info replication is harmful. At Talk:Noel Coward I did appreciate that there were people on both sides offering up bulleted and numbered reasoning on both sides. None of the opposite opinions changed my mind, though. (Being told readers who want an infobox want to be treated as idiots, when you're a reader who wants an infobox, does not work. Telling content creators that there are times you don't want to read their well-crafted text does not sway them to allow an infobox. Most regrettably mistakenly saying that it was "stupid text" especially does not work - again I'll say it was wrong of me to say that and I wish I'd handled myself better at points. Allowing incivility and bludgeoning makes it very hard to read the case for the other side.) What would convince me utterly is a well-designed neutral study of Wikipedia readers (probably via well designed randomly sampled surveys during article retrieval) as to when infoboxes are and are not appropriate. If a plurality of surveyed readers agrees either way, I can accept that. (Even if I still personally feel different from that.) Second place to that would be something akin to an RfC or even a vote of the editorship as described in the Infobox case remedy 4.3.7, preferably at minimum respecting differences in categories of article. (Forgive if I paraphrase incorrectly.) Nobody responded to my query above, so I assume one never took place. Make a master infobox guideline. Let it permit (absolutely) or deny IBs for biographies / sciences articles / geographical entries / etc. etc. - let it be even more granularly by category. Or let it lay out specific and near-deterministic guidelines of when infoboxes are not permitted or not deniable to an article. Do not leave that directly in the hands of individual Projects or local editors to say yes/no initially, as this appears to be how we've gotten where we are. In distinct third place, but equally settling: Let the Office decide it as a site styling matter, as (AFAIK) they do for how the master css layout works. I'd hope they'd use a likewise objective empirical method. (Though I predict many editors would howl worse at that than we've yet seen, at the unfairness of the office overriding us all regardless of how one feels about IBs.) In any of the cases above, reconfirm as needed (2 years? 3? 5?) or as consensus is perceived to change but I then fear the squabbles would start immediately and not stop.

LaughingVulcan 01:04, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Smeat75

I just want to point out that Tim riley, SchroCat, Cassianto and We hope have all retired or announced their intention to end their involvement with WP over this issue in the last few days. These are all highly excellent content creators, driven away from the project by incessant demands from editors otherwise uninvolved with the articles they have worked on to have infoboxes added to the articles. Very sad, a failure on a systemic level to help and value core content creators.Smeat75 (talk) 19:23, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Reply to Opabinia regalis - I think RexxS above, in his reply to you, has done a very fair and balanced job of evaluating the current situation. Things have moved on a little from the time when there were two opposing "camps" of regular editors, one pro, one anti-info-boxes who would slug it out repeatedly. The present, very horrible, conflict is, as he says, centred on FA which come to the attention of the "community" which unfortunately often means editors who neither know nor care anything whatsoever about the subject of the article but just think every article should have an infobox, because that is the cool modern thing to do. The what I might call hard core old school pro-infobox regulars have become a little more willing to compromise and extend understanding to the editors who have taken "their" articles to FA and do not feel infoboxes on them are appropriate, but not the "wider community" summoned by RfC's and so forth, which has been instrumental in the four highly excellent editors I mention above announcing they are quitting WP. Tim Riley is the one whose work I am most familiar with, it is a terrible, terrible loss. This is one of the reasons why I am not interested in trying to take the articles I have created or expanded to "Good" or "Featured" status, then you will have "the community" insisting on infoboxes, I would rather try to please the real "outsiders" who are not WP editors, but readers/users who turn to this website, now (unfortunately, I often think) the most frequently used resource for information on the internet, for accurate, well-sourced, hopefully interesting information.

Opabinia regalis asks what would change my mind. I have included infoboxes on articles I have created about books and also about various saints, but in the area of classical music/opera that I work in a lot I feel that infoboxes are not suitable at all for many of the articles I work on and experience someone trying to add one as sabotage of what I have tried to accomplish. I would change my mind if I could see that there is a consensus, not of the wider "community", but of the other editors working in the area of classical music/opera, that infoboxes should be included in articles.Smeat75 (talk) 05:03, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Mr Ernie

Arbcom should go ahead and authorize DS for this topic area, but it won't adress the root cause of the issue. I agree with User:Jytdog that infoboxes are a style issue and the community should author a policy to end this dispute once and for all. Sure, one side is going to be upset, but they'll just have to accept it and get over it. This drama mongering and incivility by some editors is simply ridiculous, and far past the point of enough. If DS is the only thing done, we'll end up with a large amount of editors who are eventually blocked, banned off, or simply quit on their own. There will always be a new editor who comes along wants to add or remove an infobox on an article due to the nature of Wikipedia, and without a style guide to look to the main article contributors feel like their article quality is reduced by such changes and react. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:15, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Serialjoepsycho

Someone can correct me if I wrong, but following the discussion at [5] it seems entirely a matter of preference whether or not to include or exclude an infobox. If this is the case then any consensus, regardless of quality argumentation, is based of either "I just like that" or "I just don't like that". In the short term Discretionary sanctions are a good idea. For the longer term though some other action needs to be taken. Again my understanding is the inclusion and exclusion of inboxes is a matter of preference, and if the inclusion or the exclusion of an infobox was less arbitrary it stands to reason that there would be less disruption. I assume that the creation of the appropriate policy or guideline is a matter for the community and not ARBCOM directly unless done as a matter of discretionary sanctions. That's a line I question if members of ARBCOM would be comfortable crossing though. Perhaps there i some means that ARBCOM could help in presenting this to the community? If my assumptions about the arbitrary nature of infoboxes is incorrect my apologies and thanks for your time.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:49, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

TLDR D/S stand to stop the disruption but it avoids addressing the root cause of the disruption. The root cause does seem to be addressable.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 05:01, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Dr. Blofeld

Everybody knows what my opinion is of this situation, and I'm not going to throw around accusations as we know who'll turn up asking for them to be struck down and censored. But I will say that there urgently needs to be a mechanism in place to stop arguments over infoboxes escalating into uncivil, time wasting discussions which last weeks. I'm with Laser brain and Mr. Ernie on this in particular, the blocking editors/topic bans will not address the root of the problem and only turn editors away, as there will always be more editors who will come along and try to add infoboxes and then people will be powerless to defend them.

What we badly need here is to recognize that a] Infoboxes are not compulsory. They are a stylistic preference which should not be enforced on others with a different view, and are at best a minor part of the wikipedia intrastructure at least in arts biographies where their actual informational value is generally less than it may be in articles on sportspeople, aircraft, skyscrapers etc b] Recognize that infobox enforcement is not a problem across the entire site, most articles go by without warring. Recognize that it is often the same names involved in the disputes and articles by the same authors often at the centre of disputes. It is Featured Article sin particular which are often at the centre of disputes, I think something needs to protect those articles in particular from warring after an article passes FA and there is a formal consensus on infobox or no infobox. c] Ultimately recognize that Featured and Good Article writers are extremely valuable to the project and that uncivil discussion over infoboxes increase the risk of people leaving. Acknowledge that FA/GA contributors spend dozens of hours improving articles which nobody else can be bothered to improve, so should have more leeway in stylistic preference as they do in making any other editorial decision to omit/include certian material, ref style and layout in writing the full article. This includes articles which may have previously had an infobox but were undeveloped and poorly written (as infobox protectionism is also a major part of disputes) I think it's those FAs and GAs which have had extreme hard work put into them and careful decision making which needs to be respected above all and people be assured that they can promote an article without later having to fight people from adding an infobox.

• @ GorillaWarfare, sorry I disagree that infobox discussion is ever likely to be civil. Your comment seems to demonstrate a distinct lack of understanding of a situation which is virtually always contentious. Yes, it might be possible to discuss it civilly, but in practice that far from happens, and you need to recognize that. In fact it's been one of the most bitter areas of confrontation on the site in recent years.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:12, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

@ GorillaWarfare In most cases adding an infobox isn't contentious, and people do it and don't have to start a discussion. But in my experience when an editor comes along and says "why doesn't this have an infobox?" on a featured or good article and then starts a new thread to add one it tends to become a long discussion, usually with personal attacks involved. I agree that it shouldn't get uncivil but I'm yet to see an infobox discussion which isn't heated in some way myself.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:04, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Olive

• AE is not a solution. AE would be a punitive bandaid on the encyclopedia that is not punitive. AE is broken. One admin carries both the responsibility and pressure of deciding on a fair result, a situation that opens the door to both abuses of the system and undo pressure on one human being. Like other forums on Wikipedia AE can result in multiple and long comments, nothing different than an Arb clarification except that decisions are reached by one person instead of many. How can AE result in a better outcome than here?
• Info boxes are in my mind not strictly format issues. They are an alternative format for carrying content that can be read quickly. It can be frustrating to have created a long and well written article and to know a reader may choose to read only the most basic facts. However, very early and preliminary studies seem to indicate readers reading on a screen retain less information than if they experience the tactile, paper version of the information, remember less, and tend to scan (the left side of the screen) rather than read carefully. An info box then becomes a landing platform for the screen reader where he will see what he needs quickly per her tendency to scan and if the information is interesting enough may read the whole article. This has to be about the reader. We can't change how the screen is read, we can't change how human beings have come to read a screen, but we can be some of the first to understand and cater to the reader and perhaps lure them into reading more extensive knowledge.
• We have to deal with this issue with a deeper understanding and willingness to adjust per what works for our readers; we have to be in the forefront of understanding how readers read online. That has to be the discussion, a discussion which includes multiple inputs and opinions and the forging of something groundbreaking. We have to think outside the box here, and stop being stuck on what was, and we need the experienced editors to do the thinking and the collaborating rather than leaving the encyclopedia. We're here because what was didn't work for everyone. We need a larger solution which may put a stop to this kind of protracted and in the end usually unproductive discussion.(Littleolive oil (talk) 17:08, 1 September 2016 (UTC))
  • On rereading some cmts: My cmts are not meant to address anyone in particular but are just opinions based on my own experience rather than replies to anyone.(Littleolive oil (talk) 23:18, 1 September 2016 (UTC))

Statement by Rschen7754

While I can see the rationale behind DS, I worry that the warning templates will be used as a weapon in areas that have used infoboxes for years with few issues. I also am concerned that we are moving closer to putting the whole site under DS. --Rschen7754 03:21, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Jo-Jo Eumerus

Breaking a little convention of mine, I'd like to suggest that any DS imposed in this topic area be preferably enforced by ways that don't involve Special:Block as the very first tool of enforcement, e.g by reverting or revdeleting violating edits or by edit filters. My impression is that we are not dealing with problems caused by SPAs or disruption-only accounts but with issue perpetrated by editors with mostly good contributions to the project, and the blocking tool (both as a first sanction or as a response to a ban violation) is poorly designed for such issues - for example it cannot be applied on a per group-of-pages or namespace specific basis. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:46, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Gerda

I agree with Opabinia regalis. I question Dr. Blofeld's "I disagree that infobox discussion is ever likely to be civil", - as much as I have enjoyed collaboration over many years. These discussions are no curse, they are as we make them. We could still start today:

• to not think of people who don't agree with us as a group, giving them group names, but as human beings
• to voice our opinion in small doses
• to accept preferences
• to not get more excited over infoboxes than other article features such as images and tables.

For a sample of pleasant conversations with a user who doesn't agree with me, see here.

For a recent example of a civil infobox discussion see here.

I have more than enough of the topic which I archived when the year began. If you see me on any article talk regarding the issue, remind me of this pledge. I invite you to my latest PR, part of Max Reger, my topic of the year. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:26, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Jcc

Any hope of civility without sanctions in the topic of infoboxes is simply wishful, naive thinking. One only needs to read Talk:Noel Coward to see the level of entrenchment between the two sides- and DS is needed, otherwise it will just be repeat of that every single time the topic is brought up. One editor has had 4 ANI threads by four different editors on ANI about their conduct in that thread, all of which have been closed, because what's really needed is DS. Sure, it won't solve the root cause, but it acts as an encouragement for editors to moderate their behaviour, and it'll help until we come up with a policy on infoboxes. jcc (tea and biscuits) 10:32, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Masem

I would strongly encourage the Committee to require the community to come to some MOS or the infobox equivalent of DATERET on how to determine when infoboxes should be include and how to appropriate breach the subject of how to seek a change (removal of a long-standing infobox, and/or addition of an infobox to an article that has lacked it). The one thing that I have found when reading through discussions on the infoboxes is very much an WP:OWNership aspect by those that have decided they didn't want an infobox on the articles they brought to GA/FA, and a view imcompatible with WP:CCC. The lack of a DATERET-type approach to avoid all these arguments on the process is what makes these discussions highly argumentive.

This should also be alongside a discussion to determine if it is possible from a technical standpoint to allow users to enable or disable infoboxes, as to help find a middle ground between the two stances on infoboxes. There is presently some discussion going on in WP:VPT towards this. --MASEM (t) 01:51, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.

Infoboxes: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Infoboxes: Arbitrator views and discussion

• At the moment I'm inclined towards imposing DS on the area. I don't see a need for another case. I might be convinced otherwise but I really wouldn't look forward to it. Doug Weller talk 16:56, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
• Might as well give DS a try. Nothing else has worked so far... Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 17:42, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
• I'm not opposed to authorizing discretionary sanctions here. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
• Hmm. In the last infobox-related ARCA, I (and others, but I remember my own posts best! :) suggested that someone who wants DS for infoboxes should file a new ARCA request on that point. No one did. Now we have another request about something related, where several people who commented on the previous request stop by to again ask for DS. (OK, I'm not sure what if anything that says, but it somehow seems significant.) I disagree with some of the comments above that this is a "style issue" and can be subsumed into existing mechanisms for handling such things - a look at the thread on the requests page clearly establishes that there is no consensus about whether infoboxes are style or content or something in between. However, I'm concerned that traditional DS applied to the topic of "infoboxes" will end up picking off participants one by one and dragging out the drama. There are also large areas of the project where infoboxes are not controversial. I think we need to be careful of unintended consequences. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:45, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
  1. Whether or not you think it's uncivil or a personal attack or whatever, I don't see the value in discussing individuals admins here, especially those not currently active at AE. Let's spend our time on more useful discussions.
  2. The tone of discussions related to this subject has become excessively personalized. (There's my entry in the understatement of the year competition.) Relatedly, I think we all agree that nobody wants to see editors leaving the project over this, even in part, and I certainly hope those who are frustrated with this debate return after a break.
  3. This is a question for people on all sides of the debate: what kind of information would convince you to change your mind? What could you learn about editors or readers that would make you think "OK, at first I thought this article should/shouldn't have an infobox, but now I think the opposite"? Positions on the subject have clearly become entrenched over years of arguing, but what seems to me to be lacking is empirical evidence. If we can at least talk about what kind of evidence people find convincing, maybe we can move forward. Opabinia regalis (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks to all who answered my question above, and apologies that I haven't had time to read the answers yet - it's a long weekend :) Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:39, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
• I think authorizing discretionary sanctions is an appropriate next step to trying to address this problem. I am not inclined to grant the two amendments requested by the filer. I'm not sure I'd ever support amending a case principle, simply because they're mainly there so that we can agree on background information. Changing it would not have any effect on current practice, since the principles do not authorize any remedies. The two-revert suggestion also seems misguided, as it's entirely possible to have a civil, productive conversation in this topic area while also making more than two posts. I feel like it would simply stymie productive discussion, and encourage repeated RfCs on very similar issues. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:01, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
  • @Dr. Blofeld: Thryduulf perhaps said it better than me in his comment above. There are plenty of discussions involving infoboxes that are perfectly normal; usually on pages where it's already been decided that there should be an infobox. I am not saying that there is no issue involving infoboxes; I've was active on the Infobox case review in 2015 and have also weighed in on various ARCAs regarding the cases, so I'm fully aware that it is an intensely problematic area. I simply want to avoid imposing restrictions that are so broad that a few editors can't even discuss, say, whether a person's previous occupation is relevant to include in an infobox. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:54, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
• I am apprehensive about placing close to 90% of the 'pedia under DS --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 04:19, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

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