Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

Welcome to the language section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

• Computing
• Entertainment
• Humanities
• Language
• Mathematics
• Science
• Miscellaneous
• Archives

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

   

How can I get my question answered?

• Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
• Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
• Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
• Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
• Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
• Note:
  • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
  • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
  • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
  • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

• The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

See also:

• Teahouse
• Help desk
• Village pump
• Help manual

January 28

Questions

1. In English, "half hour" refers to the previous hour, but in other Germanic languages it refers to next hour. Is it a Romance influence in English, and are there other Germanic languages that do the same?
2. In English, can the words past, to, o'clock and half be used in hours 13 to 23?
3. Is there any Slavic language which allows long sequences of vowels in hiatus?
4. Is there any Romance language which has phonetic aspirated consonants?
5. Is there any Romance language where Classical Latin /h/ never became silent?
6. Is there any Western Romance language which pronounce letter H in all contexts?
7. Is there any dialect of Spanish where j / soft g is a coronal sound?
8. Is there any Romance language that uses letter K in native words? Why does Romanian not do that?
9. Is there any Slavic language with phonemic consonant length of all consonant?
10. Is there any dialect of English that has retained noun gender?

--40bus (talk) 21:04, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

1. "Half hour" by itself means a roughly 30-minute interval, and can be used in various ways. Where are you seeing that it somehow refers only to the "previous" hour? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:38, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

It's about "half six" meaning 5:30 or 6:30.  --Lambiam 23:43, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

In the UK I've never heard that used to mean anything other than 'half past six' (am or pm), never 'half-past five' (or "half-to-six", which is entirely unknown). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.103.187 (talk) 23:49, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

German es ist schon halb sechs means it's already half past five. The post asks how come English does this differently from its next of kin.  --Lambiam 11:55, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Southern German has the advanced forms viertel sechs and dreiviertel sechs (meaning 5:15 and 5:45 respectively). --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:16, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

British English "half n" for "half past n" is fairly recent, I think; this ngram seems to show it really only since 2000 in books, though I'm sure it goes back to at least the 80 in speech. I have always suspected that it arose at least partly from people hearing the German expression and misinterpreting it, but I have no evidence for that. --ColinFine (talk) 12:45, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I (elderly Brit) have been familiar with it for decades, and my feeling is that it arose naturally. I doubt that enough BrE speakers were so conversant with colloquial German that they picked it up (wrongly), even though my family (like others in the Army) lived in Germany for a couple of years. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.103.187 (talk) 18:50, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

American here. Never heard "half six" used for either 5:30 or 6:30. It has always been "half past [the previous full hour]". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:57, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Or half past the next hour. As in, "I'll call you at half past." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:33, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. I've heard that. But that's a different usage. If someone asks me the time, I might say simply "half past" if I have reason to believe that they already know the hour. Otherwise, I would say, for example, "half past 5". I might say "I'll call you at half past" if I am confident that context has established that I mean the next hour or some other previously specified hour. Like, "I leave work at 8, I'll call you at half past", meaning 8:30. But the previously mentioned usage of "half five" is totally foreign to my experience. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:07, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Likewise. I'm just trying to figure out what the OP means by "in English, 'half hour' refers to the previous hour". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:53, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

2. In British English, none of these are usually used in conjunction with explicit use of the 24-hour clock, which itself is common – bus and train timetables, for example, always use it, and since the advent of digital watches it has become unremarkable in everyday speech, even to this elderly Brit.

Of course, in the hours before noon, it may sometimes be ambiguous as to whether someone stating the hour is thinking in terms of the 12- or 24-hour clock, but mental translation between the two mostly occurs (I think) at a subconscious level. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.103.187 (talk) 23:45, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

5. The loss of /h/ apparently happened with Vulgar Latin, see Latin phonology and orthography#Pronunciation shared by Vulgar Latin and Romance languages and Phonological changes from Classical Latin to Proto-Romance. Based on this and the general rarity of /h/ beyond cases where it reappeared later (see below, also note that modern /h/ usage is often not in conjunction with the actual letter H), it seems unlikely that any current Romance languages ever had /h/ just not disappear. GalacticShoe (talk) 02:39, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

6. In conjunction to the answer to the above question, the article on the letter H mentions that there are only a handful of Romance languages which currently have some form of /h/. Romanian reborrowed it from neighboring Slavic languages, and is irrelevant to your question since it isn't Western Romance anyways. Spanish as a whole redeveloped /h/ but then lost it again. Finally, apparently some Spanish and Portuguese dialects developed /h/ as allophones of other sounds, but this doesn't correspond to always pronouncing the letter H. So in general, it would appear that the answer to your question is no. GalacticShoe (talk) 02:44, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

It seems from the article that Western Cantabrian preserves the /h/ that Middle Spanish still had. Double sharp (talk) 18:28, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I completely missed that since I only looked through H's history section. The articles on Andalusian Spanish, the Extremaduran language, and Canarian Spanish all mention the preservation of /h/ as well. I may have to edit the history section later to explicitly mention these as being non-allophonic sounds. GalacticShoe (talk) 03:50, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

8.I. Walloon, Judeo-Spanish. Burzuchius (talk) 20:19, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

8.II. According to Romanian language, the Latin orthography was mostly based on Italian, which barely uses K. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 01:24, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

According to UCLA, the Latin orthography was only introduced in 1859, which makes it easier to confirm that K was only introduced for later loanwords. GalacticShoe (talk) 02:24, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

10. See the answer to your previous question GalacticShoe (talk) 21:11, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

January 29

Surname ordering

Is there a single article (or several) that goes into this? More specifically, how does it work in Portugal and Brazil (maternal or paternal surname)? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:45, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva is definitely and for sure always referred to as Lula. In Brazil I believe we use the second to last name on second reference. I will leave it to someone else to explain what parent that is and why. Elinruby (talk) 04:07, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

We have an article Portuguese name with subsections on Brazilian-specific patterns and Brazilian surnames.  --Lambiam 11:21, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Clarityfiend, not exactly an article, but Template:Family name footnote has a lot of detail about this, for dozens of languages or ethnicities, which were unified from an equal number of templates by Primefac. There were a few stragglers, that didn't fit easily into the general scheme, and as it happens, one of those was Template:Portuguese name (which also covers Brazil), so that one still sits apart from the general case, probably due to the Portuguese name suffixes like filho and neto. See the template for details. In some cases, you have to know more information about the individual involved, as Filho can be a legitimate last name, or it can also be a suffix (meaning "son", analogous to "Jr." in English). Adding Elinruby. Mathglot (talk) 11:25, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay, Portuguese name#Collation says to order by last surname, with nothing about Brazilian ordering (if different). Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:41, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Brazilian probably isn't different. I specified Brazilian because the dialects are apparently quite different and I have only ever attempted Brazilian topics personally. I don't vouch for anything about Portugal.Elinruby (talk) 07:15, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Slavic(?) "starting to do (something)"

in articles about Eastern Europe I frequently notice sentences about how somebody started to do something (in the 9th century for example). A concrete measurable action.

I have been changing the phrase to passé simple and wondering if the person who wrote that first learned a language that doesn't have a past tense? It seems odd, but no odder than not using either definite or indefinite articles? Any thoughts on whether there is such a language and what language(s) this would be? Based on topics (Kievan Rus', khaganates, steppes) I'm guessing Russian or something proto-slavic? ---- Elinruby (talk) 04:25, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

(Slightly later): here is an example from Primary Chronicle#Authorship, and actually this is also in past tense, isn't it. I don't have a word for this.

Based on the 1661 Paterik of the Kyiv Monastery of the Caves, 17th-century writers started to assert that Nestor "the Chronicler" wrote many of the surviving Rus' chronicles

Elinruby (talk) 04:43, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

As a British English speaker/writer, I find this fairly natural. It indicates that the described action (in this case, asserting something) had not been done previously, and that it went on for some significant span rather than being a short-lived phenomenon. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.103.187 (talk) 07:37, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Slavic languages do have a past tense. What they lack, though, is present perfect (or any other perfect tense for that matter). Which means that if you wish to translate something like "Since the 17th century, writers have been asserting that…" into a Slavic language, you'd have to use instead the equivalent of either past simple: "In the 17th century, writers started asserting that…", or present simple: "From the 17th century (onwards), writers assert that…". Note: Slavic languages make a distinction between perfective and imperfective verbs, but that's something else than perfect and simples tenses. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:44, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

A present perfect gives us "Writers have asserted that ..." "Writers have been asserting that ..." combines that with a continuous aspect. English is, amongst European languages, remarkable for its heavy use of the continuous aspect. Something with "Writers started to assert that ..." would also be the normal way to say this in for example Dutch, which has a present perfect similar to English. PiusImpavidus (talk) 18:42, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

It is common enough in US English too: "started to notice",^[1] "started to resemble",^[2] "started to wonder".^[3]  --Lambiam 11:10, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Elinruby, Russian (and I believe, other Slavic languages) have a verbal feature that is neither a tense, nor a mood, nor a voice which are all familiar to speakers of English or Romance languages and is called "aspect" which does not correspond to anything in English verbs. Aspect can be seen in the distinction between Russian "шёл" ("went") and "пошёл" ("headed over"; my translations) which is normally used to distinguish completed action for ongoing action, but can also be used to indicate initiating action. HTH, Mathglot (talk) 11:07, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Aspect is also common in Romance languages, by the way. Just about all of them differ between past actions performed habitually or only once. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:25, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Aspect is a universal category in languages. In Western European languages it is often not discussed, because it tends to be subsumed into the category of "tense". But the distinction between "I worked" and "I was working" is aspectual. ColinFine (talk) 13:06, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Aspect is the word I was missing. But there is a time element that on reflection isn't clear if you aren't up to your elbows in the article. It isn't .that Nestor is thought to be the author and this began in the 17th century. This was was brought up in the 17th century but except for fringey writers, most authors accept that this would involve time travel, since he died before these events took place. Elinruby (talk) 18:46, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

judging from the blank looks and stunned silence, that wasn't very clear, so trying again: In the above text, whether Nestor is the author of the Primary Chronicle is just an example of sentence structure. The words "started to" seem superfluous and misleading to me, since from context it is clear that ir isn't that academics have believed that Nestor was the chronicler since the 17th century, it is that they believed it at the time but today's academics no longer do and haven't for quite some time. The strange sentence construction could be the an idiosyncrasy of a particular editor, but I have seen it quite a bit now, and I am starting to wonder if this has to do with a particular language's (ru?) understanding of verbs, analogous to Spanish not having an indefinite article. I hope that's clearer.Elinruby (talk) 01:09, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

And as I originally tried to explain, that is exactly what this construction, common in English, conveys. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.103.187 (talk) 02:02, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Er, no? It does not convey that somebody did something either once or gor a period of timr, and is no longer doing it. At least not to me. For example if I said "about then I started to wonder if my question was getting bogged down in the details of my example." it would be correct to conclude that I have decided to try the question again later with a different example. I am pretty sure that you.and I are working different conceptions of "that" in your sentence. Thank you to Mathglot for the vocabulary term "aspect".02:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it makes sense in context: "17th-century writers started to assert that Nestor wrote many of the surviving chronicles… From the 1830s to around 1900, there was fierce academic debate about Nestor's authorship, but the question remained unresolved, and belief in Nestorian authorship persisted… Modern scholars have concluded that Nestor was not the author."

So the belief in Nestor's authorship was not limited to 17th-century scholars. The assertion that Nestor was the author was something that began in the 17th century and persisted until around 1900. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:22, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

what you say is true. i am going with bad example. i don't have another handy though. Elinruby (talk) 20:33, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Update: so many people said it made sense as originally written that I put "started to" back in the sentence and edited a bit. Feel free to comment on that effort if desired. I may come back someday to "starting to". Elinruby (talk) 07:22, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

translation for German word "Aktus"

Hi friends, I know there are native speakers of German here, can you help? The Jan 28 wördle.de surprised me when the second K was gray, and the solution turned out to be: Aktus. I can't find this in any of my dictionaries. So what does it mean? Thank you70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:17, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Not a native German speaker, but this site suggests it's an obsolete word meaning a function, event or celebration. --Viennese Waltz 16:31, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe the classifier veraltet could mean both 'archaic' or 'obsolete', somewhat depending on context. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Langenscheidt (a well-known German dictionary) says "school ceremony (archaic)". DuncanHill (talk) 16:53, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Uses on the German Wikipedia show the noun (invariant under declension) had a variety of meanings, some of which correspond to senses of the English noun act. A synopsis of the late 18th-century comic fantasy Leben des Quintus Fixlein shows the term used as meaning some part of festive school ceremony (Schulfeier). It appears to be an archaic or obsolete form of present-day Akt, which also has this range of meanings; in the festive sense, it is a synonym of Festakt. Possibly, traditional schools clung longer to the obsolescent form.  --Lambiam 18:59, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I was rather surprised when I first found out that one of the meanings of "Akt" was "artistic nude depiction"... AnonMoos (talk) 20:08, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I have never heard that word (and I suppise I know more than average). I really wonder this was still used in the 2nd half of the 20th century. --KnightMove (talk) 23:10, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Cassell's German & English Dictionary (12th ed., 1968) has "celebration; School Speech Day; public act". DuncanHill (talk) 23:21, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Could be seen as a remnant, and have something to do with the tendency in 18/th19th century Germany to use latin, greek and french words and kind of "teutonize" them. Often associated with higher education, see de:Burschensprache (sorry, no English article, but might actually be interesting to translate), for greater context perhaps Burschenschaft. Lectonar (talk) 11:38, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you everyone. I'm surprised it's so obscure but perhaps the creator of that wordle version wants to keep everyone on their toes :) Do you have any sense of how specific it is - would it apply to schools in general or is it something like Montem, applying to one school only?70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:55, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Got no comment on your question, but I would guess that rather than an intentional word choice, it could be that the creator just has a somewhat outdated word bank. Google Ngram Viewer suggests that the word was used relatively more commonly in the decades leading up to the 2000s, so that might be why. GalacticShoe (talk) 03:45, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

It wouldn't be specific to one school only. Lectonar (talk) 09:09, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you again!70.67.193.176 (talk) 22:01, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

January 30

Gulag

in sentences like "he was sent to a prison camp" is it more correct to say "a Gulag" or "the gulag" and should it be capitalized? Elinruby (talk) 02:35, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

It's capitalized in our Gulag article. The phrase "a Gulag" might be a little unusual in English -- the only occurrence in the "Gulag" article is in an image caption... AnonMoos (talk) 03:50, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

The Gulag is a unique system of labor camps, as its article notes, so it makes no sense to write "a Gulag", any more than it would to refer to "a Statue of Liberty". There doesn't appear to be a clear consensus on whether it should or should not be capitalized. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:22, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

"He was sent to a Gulag camp" would make most sense in my opinion. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:25, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

In Russian the whole acronym is capitalized, ГУЛАГ. Usually (but not always) acronyms in English are likewise capitalized: NATO, DARPA, SWAT. It would make sense to retain this across the transliteration and use "GULAG". Wiktionary makes a distinction between "GULAG" being the agency running the system, "Gulag" being an alternative letter-case form of "gulag", and the latter meaning:

1. (historical) Also GULAG: the system of all Soviet labour camps and prisons in use, especially during the Stalinist period (1930s–1950s).
2. (by extension)
   1. A prison camp, especially one used to hold political prisoners.
   2. (also figuratively) A place where, or political system in which, people with dissident views are routinely oppressed.

All case forms are found in books, with "Gulag" being the most and "GULAG" the least popular.^[4] Personally, I'd avoid using Gulag or "gulag" as a common noun in writing as being too colloquial and use "a Gulag prison camp" if it needed to be made clear that a prison camp was part of the Gulag system. However, this use is common and also found in the book titles of serious works: The Gulags: The History and Legacy of the Notorious Soviet Labor Camps; Stalin, the Five Year Plans and the Gulags: Slavery and Terror 1929–53; Never Remember: Searching for Stalin's Gulags in Putin's Russia.  --Lambiam 09:58, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

thank you for the answers.

I believe GULAG would strictly speaking be the agency, right? I have personally only ever seen it in "send (someone) to the gulag" but always in a metaphorical sense, whereas I am seeing this in Baltic history articles where the subject yea verily went to a prison camp, probably someplace remote in the East. So I would like to get this right. Speaking of which, I am going to update the "starting to" question to say that since so many people said it was correct as written, I put "starting to" back in and rewrote the verbs a bit to bring out the timeframe. Mea culpa; vague question, bad example.

Back to this, I did see that it's usually capitalized in our articles. I guess somebody made a style decision? It seems wrong to me, but I have other fish to fry.

Follow-up question: were Gulag prison camps specifically for Russian political prisoners? Or, when there were forced population transfers, were the people involved also sent to Gulag prison camps? or just the working-age men?

Thank you again. Elinruby (talk) 05:57, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Being forced to work in a Gulag prison camp was a punishment. There is no sharp border line between political and other prisoners, but many Gulag prisoners were there for non-political crimes, such as theft.  --Lambiam 12:12, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Exile of Jews in the Soviet interior during World War II. 2A00:23D0:6EA:DB01:3D32:231E:20A4:4F3F (talk) 12:45, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Pre-Latin Native American translation

Are there websites or other resources that have translation vocabulary for pre-European scripts of any Native American language of the US (as in wiigwaasabak or petition of the Ojibwe chiefs) and can we reliably translate English text without neologisms to such scripts? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 11:04, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Are these really scripts in the traditional sense? To me, they do appear be more like pictograms used as a symbolical and mnemonic device? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:29, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

PICTOGRAPHS OF THE NORTH AMERICAN INDIANS by Garrick Mallery (1886). Alansplodge (talk) 18:06, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

New questions

1. Is there any instance of a language being written in same script over 1,500 years and having had a very high historical and cultural prestige and then switched to a new script and completely abandoning the old script?
2. Do these letter combinations occur commonly in any language:

• ææ
• øø
• řř
• ťť
• ňň
• ďď
• ľľ
• ëë
• áá
• éé
• íí
• óó
• úú
• ýý
• äaä
• ïï
• ÿÿ
• əə
• ðð
• þþ
• xä
• cä
• qä

3. Is there any Spanish dialect that has a /v/ phoneme?
4. Are there any native non-compound words in Swedish where letter Ä occur more than once? Could e.g. mälä be a native Swedish word by its structure? Why letter Ä is used more in Finnish than Estonian and Swedish?
5. Are there any words in Spanish with letter Ï?
6. Are there any words in Polish with letter combinations sc+ vowel, such as nonsense word scila, cn, kc or cs?
7. Why letter V is not used in native words in Polish?
8. Why letter Y is not used in native words in Estonian, German, Dutch, Italian, Portuguese or Latvian?

--40bus (talk) 20:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Question 1: Is there any instance of a language being written in same script over 1,500 years and having had a very high historical and cultural prestige and then switched to a new script and completely abandoning the old script?

At issue is every language changes an awful lot over a millennium. Scripts can also be fairly dynamic. Then "historical and cultural prestige" -- you mean at that time in that place, or now in another place? I suppose obvious examples (~ 7th century origins, so not quite 1500 years) are Arabic and Cyrillic scripts, which several countries have dropped for a Latin script (Turkey dropped Arabic as well as interesting other cases; former SSRs dropped Cyrillic (note rather that some were forced to adopt Cyrillic from Arabic or Latin in the 20th century).)

Maybe the cleanest example I can think of is the use of Classical Chinese to transcribe Korean, going back millennia. This was replaced by the Hangul alphabetic script beginning in 1443 CE. SamuelRiv (talk) 22:27, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I guess Ancient Egyptian language that switched to Coptic script to become Coptic language. --Error (talk) 11:23, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Question 2: Do these letter combinations occur commonly in any language?

See Wiktionary: créée. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:57, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Also Icelandic ææ which is an elongated interjection, and Southern Sami Nøørje which is an alternative form of Nöörje meaning "Norway". Less dubious than those two, there's:

1. Turkmen iňňe meaning "needle"
2. Isthmus Mixe xëë meaning "sun, day, fiesta, holiday, name"
3. Numerous Navajo terms containing áá, íí, and óó, e.g. bááh meaning "bread", díí meaning "this, these", and dóó meaning "and"; see Navajo language#Orthography
4. Gokana súú meaning "thorn" and Chuukese wúút meaning "rain"
5. Jumjum jïïn meaning "scorpion" and Ulch sïïŋna meaning "gift, present"
6. Numerous Azerbaijani terms starting with təə, including təəssüb meaning "honour" (archaically "religious intolerance, fanaticism, bigotry), təəssüf meaning "regret", təəssürat meaning "impression", and so on
7. Numerous Orok terms starting with xä, including xäwčilä meaning "rib", xämugdä meaning "insides, intestines", xäkku meaning "heat, fever", and so on
8. Numerous terms containing cä to the point where I'm not even going to summarize any, Wiktionary has plenty of examples there
9. Tatar qäğäz meaning "paper" and Menya eqä meaning "water, river"

Old and Middle English had plenty of þþ's to go around, and Old English had oððe as an alternative form of oþþe meaning "or", but otherwise I couldn't find any living examples of either of those two digraphs. And while the Anguthimri language had "non-contrived" ææ-containing words like ðææɲa meaning "to bury" and d̪ææwat̪i meaning "greedy", it has gone extinct, though the article on it doesn't seem to know exactly when. GalacticShoe (talk) 08:54, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

You won't find a double þ in any living language, because the only one that uses the letter, Icelandic, does so in morpheme-initial position only, so neither gemination nor compounding can produce -þþ-. Regarding ð, it only occurs in Icelandic, Faroese and Elfdalian. The former two do not use it in morpheme-initial position (so no compounds with -ðð- either) and also do not geminate it either, and I'm not sure about Elfdalian – if you even count it as a language; the Swedish Wikipedia describes it as a 'variety'. --Theurgist (talk) 23:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Question 3: Is there any Spanish dialect that has a /v/ phoneme?

The same as 26 days ago. --Error (talk) 11:38, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Question 4.1: Are there any native non-compound words in Swedish where letter Ä occur more than once?

Would bärsärk (inherited from Old Norse) count? GalacticShoe (talk) 09:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Technically, I guess it might count as a compound, although the word bär meaning björn is obsolete in Swedish. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:21, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Hm, perhaps härbärge, where the original Old Norse herbergi was apparently borrowed from Middle High German? Note though that the original Proto-West-Germanic *harjabergu is actually a compound of *hari and *bergu. GalacticShoe (talk) 06:13, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Question 5: Are there any words in Spanish with letter Ï?

It is possible in poetry, to force a hiatus. Double sharp (talk) 09:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Question 6: Are there any words in Polish with letter combinations sc+ vowel, such as nonsense word scila, cn, kc or cs?

Yes for at least three of the four you asked about: cnota, scena, kciuk. Double sharp (talk) 09:29, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

⟨cs⟩, on the other hand does not appear in Polish. It does in Hungarian, where it stands for roughly the same sound as the Polish ⟨cz⟩. — Kpalion^(talk) 14:34, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

However, ⟨sc⟩ cannot be followed by ⟨i⟩, as in the nonsense word provided. That would have to be read /stɕi/, which is not permitted in the language; ⟨ści⟩ /ɕtɕi/ and ⟨scy⟩ /stsɨ/ are. --Theurgist (talk) 23:26, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Question 7: Why letter V is not used in native words in Polish?

Polish orthography is standardized so that /v/ is written using W. It wasn't always that way though. History of Polish orthography goes into more depth, but you can see in the first example table that early on some writers did use the letter V for /v/. It is only in the later orthographies where, although V appears as a letter sometimes, the actual /v/ sound appears to be mostly represented by W. I am unsure as to what led to W specifically, as there is no explicit mention of the /v/ sound in the article, but there is mention that Zaborowski's early 1514–1515 orthography was inspired by Czech, which early on used W for /v/. I would have to confirm, but the section on Czech orthography#History suggests that W was used there for /v/ because the actual letter V was coincident in the Latin alphabet with U, which might be the ultimate reason for W's use in Polish. GalacticShoe (talk) 07:54, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

My guess would be that Old Czech ultimately copied the use of ⟨w⟩ from German, which to this day is the only major European language, other than Polish, to use ⟨w⟩ for /v/. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:42, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I thought this might be the case too but I was initially hesitant because German orthography#History of German orthography didn't mention /v/ or the letter W. Looking a bit more into the page though I just found that the section German orthography#Typical letters indicates that German /w/ shifted into /v/ in the 17th century while preserving the old lettering. This statement appears to be unsourced, and I found a StackExchange post that seems to place the actual time at an earlier and broader range of time, so I'm not sure to what extent it is accurate. In any case, it seems possible that Old Czech used German's method of orthography, but without further clarification on German phonology at the time I'm a bit unsure. GalacticShoe (talk) 17:52, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Question 8: Why letter Y is not used in native words in Estonian, German, Dutch, Italian, Portuguese or Latvian?

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 November 25#Question 9. Portuguese is derived from Latin, and as far as I know, Latin didn't have a Y either. 2A00:23D0:6EA:DB01:3D32:231E:20A4:4F3F (talk) 12:54, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

For Romance languages I'm pretty sure it can indeed be boiled down to either there being a continued use of Latin-based orthography, or there being no new vowel sounds that require distinguished separation of Y. As for the other languages, it appears that all of them are fairly modern orthographies often encoded into law.

1. Modern Estonian orthography is based on Eduard Ahrens' late 19th-century Newer Orthography.
2. Latvian orthography was developed in 1908 by a linguistic commission and introduced by law in the early 1920s.
   1. Notably, the related Latgalian language actually does use the letter Y to represent /ɨ/, an allophone of /i/ absent in Latvian.
3. Dutch orthography and German orthography are similarly regulated by law.

Of course, this doesn't necessarily explain why Y is not preferred for all of them, and why they have been absent for some time, but it does explain why native spellings involving Y are essentially completely absent; they were standardized away. It seems reasonable to me to assume that the reason that Y was never chosen for any of these orthographies is simply that, like with the Romance languages, there wasn't much incentive to use a relatively rare letter for sounds that do not need it. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:46, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

"Need" is debatable. Since Estonian, Dutch and German all seem to have fairly large vowel inventories, including either the close or near-close front rounded vowel - except for historical reasons, it wouldn't be completely illogical to use it. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 04:06, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Very fair, I suppose the better way to phrase it would be "for sounds the people creating the orthographies felt did not need it." Although of course that raises the question of why said people would not feel a need for such letter usage. GalacticShoe (talk) 06:00, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

For Dutch, see IJ (digraph). Basically, Y was not uncommon in older spellings of Dutch, but when it was standardized, 'IJ' was chosen over Y in Dutch, though Afrikaans retained the use of Y. - Lindert (talk) 22:24, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

January 31

The term "The Old Man" for the 30 yo captain in "Das Boot" - mistranslation?

Apparently, in the German war movie "Das Boot" in the English version, the captain is called by the crew "The Old Man" (see en article). I looked on the web and found a part of the original German book (used for the movie) from Lothar-Günther Buchheim in the English translation, where the same English term is used. In the German original, the respective term is "Der Alte" (literally "The Old", hence without "Man"). As we are dealing with the military, hierarchy is (abstractly regarded) far more important than age - what I mean is, in German the term "Der Alte" has (which is a subtle, but clear distinction) the connotation of "the eldest man on board" or "the boss", while the aspect of age is clearly ranked lower than hierachy. Hence, one could say that the term "Der Alte" is more of an informal rank expression than it refers to age. This even more so, as the term "The Old Man", literally translated to German as "Der alte Mann", would clearly have a strong connotation of weakness (due to age), would hence also be regarded as disrespectful, and thus would definitely not be used by a crew for their 30 year old captain (which was a typical age). To emphasize this: If one refers to a man of higher age in civil life in German (today, but probably in WWII as well), to literally call him or speak about him as "Der alte Mann" is close to an insult, suitable would be "Der ältere Herr" or so. Differently said, unless there would be some special, e.g. historical meaning in English to "The Old Man" in a military sense - which I do not know as a German - I assume that the expression was just badly translated to E|nglish long time ago. Does all this make sense, or did I make a logical mistake? Pittigrilli (talk) 17:35, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

In the British military, "old man" is common affectionate nickname for a unit leader, for example:

Squadron Leader R. A. Newbury D.F.C. and Bar took over command of No. 610 'County of Chester' (F) Squadron in January 1944. He remained commanding officer until February 1945. During his tenure as the 'old man', the squadron was involved heavily involved in anti-diver patrols. [5]

It's also worth mentioning that "old man" is also British slang which can mean either a father or husband of whatever age; see our Old man page. Alansplodge (talk) 17:53, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The only times I have heard this in the British military is to refer to the senior person (captain/commanding officer) not related to age (or weakness). MilborneOne (talk) 17:55, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it means more like "the guv". Everything's relative of course, and in wartime the one with most experience may not be oldest. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:59, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, that it is used in military language is enough to prove me wrong (with the above statement of mistranslation). Thank you very much for the explanations. 19:01, 31 January 2024 (UTC) /later added signature: Pittigrilli (talk) 20:06, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Also "the Old" is not a possible usage in conventional English, as 'old' can only function as an adjective, which needs a noun to relate to. The irony inherent in the senior member of a military unit being under 30 and being called "the Old Man" has been well known since at least World War 1 (where it particularly applied in the early Air services).

Another similar BrE informal title in civilian life is "the Gaffer" which derives from 'godfather, 'grandfather' or both. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.208.215 (talk) 21:18, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

You can use "the old" to refer to a class of people: "State may close Ahtanum View, prison for the old and infirm".^[6]  --Lambiam 22:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Though not to an individual: but yes, I was being imprecise. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.208.215 (talk) 02:33, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

"And once/nineteen, the youngest ensign in his class,/he was "the old man" of a gunboat on the Yangtze"--Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 10:23, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

There is The Oldie, which, though a magazine, is named after its (supposed) typical readership. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 17:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh yes, so there is. Although everything's relative. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:36, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Pronunciation of zoo- words

(This is about words such as "zooplankton" that start with the Greek prefix zoo- meaning animal.)

Is it common today for people unfamiliar with these words to pronounced them zoo and not the prescribed zoh-oh?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:36, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

zoo-, zooplankton in Wiktionary do not mention a "zoo" pronunciation. zoology does:

The pronunciation in /zu-/ has often received negative comment, but has nevertheless become very common, especially in British English.

zoological has:

(US) (non-standard) IPA(key): /zuəˈlɑd͡ʒɪkəl/

so maybe it is common with familiar words.

--Error (talk) 18:14, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Very common in Australia, even by ABC personalities. Much regretted by older listeners. Doug butler (tal k)

The word "zoological" is or at least was normally pronounced "zoh-oh...". The word comes from two parts.[7] When "zoological gardens" evolved into "zoo", I suppose it could have ben pronounced "zo-oh", but just plan "zoo" resulted instead. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:01, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

In some older publications and dictionaries, such words were spelled with a diaeresis, e.g. "zoölogical", to mark the pronunciation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.208.215 (talk) 21:24, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

The "New Yorker" magazine still uses that diacritic... AnonMoos (talk) 00:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

No, they don't. You're probably thinking of the one they use in "cooperate". --142.112.220.136 (talk) 04:38, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

It's the same diacritic. Why would they use it "coöperate" and not in "zoölogy"? — Kpalion^(talk) 10:06, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense, but apparently they don't. Alansplodge (talk) 12:07, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

However, this 1920 book does. Alansplodge (talk) 12:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Maybe their OCR erased it. I tried to look at the original page but I don't have a login. --Error (talk) 12:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

February 1

Sweetbread

There has been discussion today at WP:HD#Buccellato di Lucca and WP:HD#https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Buccellato_di_Lucca&diff=prev&oldid=1201517214 about this English language word that is about a culinary item that is neither sweet nor a bread. As a result, I started expanding the article. I have read quite a few sources about this topic in recent hours, and pretty much all of them use the term "sweetbreads" with a final "s". Personally, I do not think that this is really a plural term, but rather an unusual word. Perhaps the article should be moved to "Sweetbreads". Any thoughts? Cullen328 (talk) 02:34, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Funnily enough when you eat them they wind up in your bread basket. 41.23.55.195 (talk) 05:02, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of which, sweetmeats refers to confectionary. So sweetbread is a meat, and sweetmeats can be bread. GalacticShoe (talk) 06:26, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Seems as if the last part -bread is related to German Braten, Dutch braden and Afrikaans braai, which would explain the semantics, i.e. a "sweet roast". 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 08:26, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328: Cambridge lists it as a singular, but notes it is usually used in the plural (sweetbreads), which is the form I am used to seeing. Bazza (talk) 09:56, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Bazza 7, thanks for your answer that addresses the question, and I am used to seeing as you see. Those earlier responses are all interesting comments about this unusual word, but the narrower question is whether "sweetbread" or "sweetbreads" is the established usage in contempory English, and whether or not the Wikipedia article name ought to be changed. Cullen328 (talk) 10:05, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Etymonline definitions are here. It's sweet as in nice, pleasant, rather than sugary. 2nd el. is from Old English: bræd, "flesh", related to "brawn". MinorProphet (talk) 10:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Some common nouns tend to be used in their plural forms when used to designate a culinary preparation, although they are well-attested also in the singular. A restaurant's menu card will list house greens under Salads and onion rings or spicy chicken wings under Appetizers or Side dishes, always plural. For the veggies you'll see snow peas and green beans. Our articles are at Snow pea and Green bean, though.  --Lambiam 12:55, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Lambian, is "sweetbread" well-attested in the singular? Is it really a common noun like your other examples? Cullen328 (talk) 18:57, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Not Lambian: but yes, it is used in the singular as well as the plural, as is done in the article Sweetbread. The reason it's often used in the plural is that a single sweetbread can often be rather small, so a culinary serving will usually comprise several of them. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.208.215 (talk) 21:10, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

EO has it as a singular.[8] Also, there was a major league ballplayer named Sweetbread Bailey. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:18, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

February 3

The <r> in Bryne, the town in Norway: tap, flap, or ʁ?

Hi all,

Please see this.

As far as I can see, it depends on which part of Norway you're from, but as always, please do prove me wrong.

Skjorte 58 aka Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

(Hmm... is skjorte a cognate of en "skirt"? Or possibly related to Cutty Sark's chemise?) Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 09:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, Wiktionary gives the pronunciation of the common noun brynje as /²brʏnjə/ for both Bokmål and Nynorsk. If allophonic substitution occurs, it seems unlikely that this is the rule.  --Lambiam 11:33, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Seems as if English "shirt" is native, whereas "skirt" is a borrowing from Old Norse with semantic shift, whereas - somewhat confusingly - in Norwegin "skjorte" (shirt) is native, whereas "skjørt" (skirt) ultimately is a Middle Low German borrowing. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:24, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I believe it is a ɾ officially, but it might be ʁ locally, as dialects don't tend to distinguish between the two sounds. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 15:29, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

The map in Torp (2001) indicates Bryne is in an area where /r/ is dorsal "in all generations". But that is irrelevant, per MOS:PRON, to the ANI thread in question because Help:IPA/Norwegian does not list ⟨ʁ⟩. Nardog (talk) 21:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

February 4

Etymologically isolated native words

Is there a term for any language's words whose etymology hasn't been definitely traced to any language family (and possibly invented natively rather than by borrowing)? E.g. Russian угрюмый - grim (according to my etymological dictionary, lacks equivalents in other Slavic and Indo-European languages). Brandmeister^talk 11:16, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Wiktionary has a category English terms with unknown etymologies, but does not seem to use a particular term for such words. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:24, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

By no means is the English noun almond an etymological isolate. It can be traced to Middle English to Old French to Latin to Ancient Greek ἀμυγδάλη (amugdálē). There the trail ends. Yet is included in this Wiktionary category, which is apparently much wider.  --Lambiam 21:47, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Almond? Tell Wiktionary the trail goes straight through Greece, and doesn't end until Sumer. https://imgur.com/a/ntQz8lf https://imgur.com/5XxXdcq Sumerian ama.gal, "Big Mama." Or more traditionally, "Great Mother." Temerarius (talk) 01:40, 11 February 2024 (UTC) Temerarius (talk) 01:40, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

There are neologisms, but they tend by their nature to be quite new, even if the creation might have been similar. "Paelologisms" or "paeloneologisms" might possibly feel confusing. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:55, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Median, mean, and average

We all know the difference between median and mean. Median refers to the middle and mean refers to the total divided by the number of items.

I'm searching for Internet sites talking about the third word here, average. Specifically, sites that say that it is incorrect to say:

The average Wikipedian makes 20 edits per day.

and that we must say:

Wikipedians make an average of 20 edits per day.

More generally the rule is that average must refer to the quantity and not the person. I don't know what the best search terms are here. Georgia guy (talk) 19:35, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

The Wiktionary entry for the adjective average lists various senses, one of which is illustrated by the sentence, The average family will not need the more expensive features of this product. Wiktionary is descriptive and this is a common use of the term. You're looking for a prescriptivist site in which some self-appointed language czar pronounces their edicts.  --Lambiam 21:36, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I gather you're just looking for a reference that takes this position, regardless of whether it's a good rule to follow. That seems like a fair question. Here's one book that advocates only using "average" for things that can be numerically averaged: [9]. --Amble (talk) 20:42, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

"Average" is an umbrella term. In high school, they taught us that there are three important types of averages: mean, median, and mode. In a perfect bell curve, they are all the same value. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:33, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

It also has a specialised meaning. If you insure your house against fire, for example, and you underinsure and your policy has an "average" clause, what happens is this:

Total value of house (say) 500,000 pounds

Sum insured 375,000 pounds

Value of loss or damage 1,000 pounds

Amount you get paid 1000 x (375 000/500 000) = 750 pounds. 2A00:23D0:50F:2A01:5149:B933:296F:2903 (talk) 16:46, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

And sometimes the specialized meanings can give rise to strange terms like mean average precision. --Amble (talk) 17:04, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Steinesque

In a review of Georgia O'Keeffe's art exhibition in 1940, Time magazine wrote the following:

Critics agreed that Georgia O'Keeffe was still tops among U. S. woman painters, mused over her Steinesque catalogue note: "If my painting is what I have to give back to the world for what the world gives to me, I may say that these paintings are what I have to give at present for what three months in Hawaii gave to me.""Pineapple for Papaya". Time. 35 (7): 42. February 12, 1940.

There's no indication in the linked article as to what "Steinesque" refers to here. Could it be Leo Stein, Gertrude Stein, or someone else? Viriditas (talk) 21:48, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I think Gertrude Stein is the likeliest referent: she was both active an as art collector, and as as poet was renowned for perplexing (some would have said nonsensical) poetic utterances, hence the limerick:

"A wonderful family is Stein,

There's Ep and there's Gert, and there's Ein,

Ep's sculpture is junk,

Gert's poetry's bunk,

And nobody understands Ein."

{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.208.215 (talk) 22:03, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. It's still confusing to me since O'Keeffe wasn't really being "Steinesque", and was known for being a very straight forward, matter of fact, kind of person. Also, the review is written somewhat oddly, as if the writer were drunk when they composed it. Viriditas (talk) 22:46, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

1) The particular sentence by O'Keeffe which is quoted there resembles many of Stein's in being kind of flat and loose-jointed and favoring parataxis. See further Gertrude Stein#Literary style.

2) In its early years, Time magazine often used a kind of distinctive conventionalized journalese, summed up by the parody quote "Backward ran sentences until reeled the mind". You can read a little more about it here... -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:57, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

That's incredibly helpful and explains a good deal of my confusion. As you may or may not know, in addition to being an artist, O'Keeffe relied on her own unique writing style which favored dashes instead of commas. Jennifer Saville described it as a "stream-of-consciousness style of phrases and dashes". My guess is that the catalogue note was revised from her style, but I haven't had a chance to look at the original just yet. In her own style, it would have read like this: "If my painting is what I have to give back to the world for what the world gives to me—I may say that these paintings are what I have to give at present for what three months in Hawaii gave to me." Viriditas (talk) 00:16, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

My wife and I were fortunate enough in 2011 to see a comprehensive exhibition of the life and works of Gertude Stein at the Contemporary Jewish Museum in San Francisco. You can read a detailed description here. Stein was a fascinating and often infuriating figure, especially when you look into her activities in France during the German occupation. We also visited the Georgia O'Keefe Museum in Santa Fe in 2008. Highly recommended. As for the Time quote, it may be a riff on Stein's enigmatic and often misunderstood "there's no there there" quote, describing her childhood neighborhood in Oakland, California. Cullen328 (talk) 00:23, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

"often infuriating figure, especially when you look into her activities in France during the German occupation". As a Jew she should have been rescued during the War. As a collaborator she should have been hanged after it. DuncanHill (talk) 00:34, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

It's surprising how common support for strongmen, fascists, and authoritarians was among writers and artists in the 1930s, presumably before the extent of their behavior was more widely known to the public. Although I never added it to her biography, Ella Young is a good example. She supported Stalin and Hitler in private, and talked about her desire for a dictatorship, very similar to how the far right in the US talks about it today. It's been a while since I went back and reviewed the sources, but I do remember that Gavin Arthur tried to make Ella Young see reason on this, but IIRC, she was quite stubborn and unwilling to change her mind. Viriditas (talk) 00:59, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Funny how none of the people clamoring for a dictatorship ever give any thought to the possibility that they would wind up on the bad side of the dictator. Or that they might be in the way of the guy who wants to become the next dictator. They just never seem to learn that the leopards don't really care whose faces they are eating.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I read an article about this a while ago. It proposed that the reason some people think like this is because it allows them to delegate tasks and responsibility to others. They might be lazy thinkers or just unwilling to think deeply about consequences. The article also said that they liked the idea of a strongman that could cut through bureaucracy (and laws) and "get things done". It's basically a fantasy they have about how government should work. They believe there is too much talk and not enough action. What they don't consider, is that they are being told what they want to hear, and that when the authoritarian comes to power, they often turn on their supporters through a series of endless purity tests that weeds out anyone who is perceived as disloyal to the leader. It's a nightmarish scenario that they don't really think about. There's a disconnect between what they think should happen and what often does. It's hard for them to bridge that gap. I see it as part of a larger phenomenon related to a long-term thinking deficit we see in the business community, but that's my own pet theory, and I don't think others have written about it. Viriditas (talk) 20:36, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

The dash thing may just be a little old fashioned -- in Victorian times, there was a well-known discrepancy between people using dashes in place of much other punctuation in letters and hand-written manuscripts, while printers would usually clean up many such dashes (substituting more formal punctuation marks) if these manuscripts came to be published. AnonMoos (talk) 01:21, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you; super interesting. Viriditas (talk) 03:40, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

February 5

Spanish passive voice

Can intransitive verbs be used in passive voice in Spanish? Like if in Finnish it is possible to say täällä nukutaan, is it possible to say aquí es dormido in Spanish? In English, here is slept is not possible because English requires a subject to every clause and passive subject is active object, so verbs that cannot get active obejct cannot get a passive subject. But Spanish is a null-subject and pro-drop language, so can Spanish use such verbs in passive? --40bus (talk) 20:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

The general name for this is Impersonal passive voice... -- AnonMoos (talk) 00:05, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Does Spanish have that? --40bus (talk) 11:08, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Here the sentence hay que ser querido is given as an example of the impersonal passive voice.  --Lambiam 12:31, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Romance languages commonly express passives as reflexives, so I would guess aquí se duerme is more likely; though I cannot now think of an example with an intransitive verb. —Tamfang (talk) 19:54, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Jacob, Jacob-El and Jaq-Ba'al

Which is attested earlier? Temerarius (talk) 21:48, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

The triconsonantal root is עקב, in which case "Jaq-Ba'al" would not be related to the other two. AnonMoos (talk) 00:08, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Meruserre Yaqub-Har (other spelling: Yakubher, also known as Yak-Baal) What do you mean not related? How could that be not related? Temerarius (talk) 19:02, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The "B" of בעל simply cannot be etymologically the same as the "B" of עקב. There is no connection between the consonantal roots of the two forms. Your Latin alphabet transcriptions which inconsistently ignore `Ayin are of very little value for etymological purposes. AnonMoos (talk) 23:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

"The "B" of בעל simply cannot be etymologically the same as the "B" of עקב." You see the conflict. Yes, that's why I'm asking. Temerarius (talk) 22:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Possibly some Egyptians may have thought that the "b" in the two names could be related, but in their original West Semitic context, they were not so. And the Egyptian language also had a system of consonantal roots (though the complete lack of writing of vowels in Hieroglyphics etc. makes it hard for modern scholars to understand the details of how it worked), and an `ayin consonant... AnonMoos (talk) 18:29, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Jacob § Etymology states that Jacob-El is found in cuneiform inscriptions (spelled ya-ah-qu-ub-el, ya-qu-ub-el) as early as c. 1800 BC, which suggests that the personal name Jacob may be a shortening from this compound name and thus is later.  --Lambiam 12:16, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

This is an instance where it's important to distinguish the alef and ayin. Temerarius (talk) 18:59, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Yakbim How about this name? Related or not related? Temerarius (talk) 00:27, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

The answer may depend on who you ask (IMO not an RS).  --Lambiam 15:09, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Symbol question

https://imgur.com/a/tNO2Hp4 What is this first symbol? Is there a hieroglyph matching the one on the scarab? Temerarius (talk) 21:48, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Direct image link. It couldn't be a Phoenician He letter? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:49, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Are you asking what the first symbol on the scarab is? (That seems to be the reed, M17 on Gardiner's sign list, sometimes drawn with lines across.) Or the first thumbnail image on the left? (That seems to be Linear B sign "ze", possibly from Knossos tablet KN 894 N v 01.) --Amble (talk) 19:51, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Why is it called "za?" 𐀽 does look like a distinct variation on the same thing. What do they say it's supposed to be? Temerarius (talk) 03:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

It’s a syllable sign, so it just stands for the syllable “ze” in various Greek words written in Linear B. Its shape and sound might come from Linear A, but we don’t know how to read Linear A or what language(s) it represents. —Amble (talk) 06:26, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't find any more info on the character in Understanding Relations Between Scripts: The Aegean Writing Systems by Philippa M. Steele. Temerarius (talk) 17:45, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

For examples of the reed leaf hieroglyph M17 with lines across, see File:Kha_and_Merit_before_Osiris_Book_of_the_Dead_of_Kha.jpg. --Amble (talk) 20:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

February 9

French senses in translation

The French novel The Parrot's Theorem by Denis Guedj contains this sentence:

• Il avait peu à peu développé un septième sens. Son corps entier participait de la réception des sons et captait ce qui avait échappé à l'oreille.

The English translation renders it thus:

• He had developed a sort of sixth sense: it was as if he listened with his whole body and heard things that went unsaid.

According to Wiktionary, the standard French version of 'sixth sense' is the expected 'sixième sens', not 'septième sens', which means 'seventh sense'.

According to this site (google translation):

• The sixth sense is what we call intuition, and the seventh sense is what we call the superego, the one that serves as the gateway between your consciousness and the universe.

Then this site talks about eighth, ninth and higher senses. So, although we tend to confine our attention to the canonic five senses and the sixth sense as a special category, it seems others are not unknown in the literature. But my questions are:

• did Guedj really mean the seventh sense, and if not, what did he mean?
• why was it translated as sixth rather than seventh sense? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:38, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Reading the whole sentence by Guedj he would almost certainly have meant what we call the sixth sense ("his entire body took part in the reception of sounds, and caught that which had escaped (his) ears)". Lectonar (talk) 07:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not know the answer but I'll add the observation that the 1945 scifi short story "Uncommon Sense" was translated into French as Le Septième Sens. Similarly for a book by Rupert Sheldrake ("The sense of being stared at" becomes Le Septième Sens : les pouvoirs de l'esprit étendu; this postdates Guedj's novel). This could indicate a pattern. --Wrongfilter (talk) 07:53, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

The film title The Sixth Sense ("I see dead people") was translated in French as (Le) Sixième Sens. The French Wikipedia defines sixième sense as "an expression referring to extrasensory perception, that is to say, not coming from the five physiological senses: sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell". Perhaps Guedj's use of septième was intended to avoid the interpretation of this gradually developed sense as ESP. Not being canonical, it is a free for all to assign a real or imaginary sense of one's choice to the higher ordinals.  --Lambiam 11:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

German TV taught me that the seventh sense was connected to being a better driver. —Kusma (talk) 12:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

And the german article about it actually has it a bit the other way round: "the title has led to "seventh sense" occasionally being used for the "sixth sense", i.e. the other senses outside of human perception. As Lambian said: it's a free for all. Lectonar (talk) 12:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, I was at sixes and sevens about this issue. I'm better now. Thanks, all. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:08, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

February 10

Quick formatting question

Should Michelin Guide be italicized or not? The article itself has a split personality: The article title is, but mentions in the text aren't. In Category:Restaurant guides, some are (Good Curry Guide) and some aren't (Gault Millau). Clarityfiend (talk) 15:12, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

The ultimate purpose of the italicizing is to improve readability. Adding italics to many instances of a term within the body text, like in this example, can hurt readability. Temerarius (talk) 15:30, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Our own Manual of Style, in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles of works § Major works, states:

Italic type ... should be used for ...

• Officially named series of major works: The Lord of the Rings film series (see § Series titles below).

"Below" under Series titles we find:

However, the following should be set in italics:

• Actual titles of a series declared by the author or publisher: Les Rougon-Macquart, The Chronicles of Narnia.

If we consider "Michelin Guide" to be the name of a series, our MoS wants it to be italicized.  --Lambiam 20:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Vubbing

Is vubbing a word? People tell me it's the sound your mobile makes when you've set it to "vibrate only" and you get a text. 86.170.222.118 (talk) 17:53, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

If people are using it and understanding one another when they do, it's a word. I would argue that the same applies to a word invented and used for the first time, if hearers understand it, but others would consider that it has to become more widely adopted first: How widely? – there's where opinions differ.

English is not officially regulated by any organisation (in contrast to, for example, French). Dictionaries are descriptive, not proscriptive, and necessarily take some time to become aware of and include new(ish) words. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.107.217 (talk) 20:31, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

According to this, this and several other web resources, "vubbing" (presumably from "video" and "dubbing"), is a process whereby an actors lip movements can be made to match a dubbed soundtrack in another language, or to replace inappropriate words or phrases. But it's not unknown for English words to have two unrelated meanings. Alansplodge (talk) 23:27, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

More likely from "visual dubbing",^[10][11][12] itself shortened from earlier "audiovisual dubbing".^[13][14][15]  --Lambiam 10:24, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, that makes sense. Alansplodge (talk) 13:57, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

• The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195 @ Dictionaries are descriptive, not proscriptive, ... : I would love to see a proscriptive dictionary, one that lists the infinitude of words that we must not use. :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:19, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Fang! Get..... "the comfy chair"!! Martinevans123 (talk) 21:26, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

February 11

About Sohibanoo Zolghadr - her name in Farsi?

@HistoryofIran: Hi all. Zolghadr is OK, but the <oo> diagraph in "Sohibanoo" would appear to me what less ridiculous languages than English might transliterate as <u>.11:10, 11 February 2024 (UTC) Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 11:10, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps so, but "-oo" is how the English-language references spell it, so we go with that in accordance with Wikipedia:COMMONNAME. Farsi I can't help you with: anyone? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.199.107.217 (talk) 14:20, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

This website spells it Sahabanu Zolghadr, Persian: سهی بانو ذوالقدر. 59.102.15.82 (talk) 14:34, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to reply to this. I’m not sure, there are sometimes some, I guess “unusual” English transliterations for Iranian names. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:21, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Questions again

1. Is there any dialect that pronounces English word hear as /hiːr/? Is it so that in most major accents, /iː/, /uː/, /aɪ̯/, /eɪ̯/ and /oʊ̯/ cannot appear directly before /r/, instead a schwa should come between them.
2. Is there any Germanic language that allows /h/ in coda?
3. Can click consonants be geminated?
4. Did Latin not have reflexive verbs?
5. Can verb have be used like I have not a cat, without do auxiliary?
6. Is there any language in Europe which has many non-compund words with two consecutive long vowels separated by hiatus, like nonsense Czech words nééku, maáva, laóa and ókóís? Would these words be actually possible in Czech?
7. Can in Polish, /s/, /z/, /t͡s/, /d͡z/ and /n/ appear directly before /i/, or are they always palatalized to alveolo-palatal sounds?
8. Is there any Romance language that has non-open back unrounded vowels, /ʌ/, /ɤ/ and /ɯ/?
9. Can palatalized consonants appear at the end of word in Lithuanian?
10. Is the skulle + infinitive is Swedish a conditional mood? In Finnish, conditional is definitely a mood.

--40bus (talk) 20:25, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

1. Some Scottish accents don't diphthongise vowels in words like hear.

4. What is a reflexive verb? In English we can say "I confused myself." Is that a 'reflexive verb', or just a verb with a reflexive object? You can certainly use these in Latin.

4. I guess that would be verbs using a reflexive pronoun, such as Spanish se, German sich or even Russian -sya (although in Russian -sya is not used independently). 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:21, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

5. When I was young, fifty or sixty years ago, have did not normally take "do-support" in British English, even when a full verb. I haven't a pen. and Have you any cheese? were perfectly normal, though in colloquial speech "got" was usually added: I haven't got a pen, Have you got any cheese. Phrases like We don't have and Do you have were Americanisms (unless they were being used in a habitual sense). This has changed somewhat, and most people do say We don't have and Do you have, but you still hear the older forms, especially with "got". (Note that I haven't got any nearly always means I don't have any, not I haven't been to get any: "got" is effectively an invariable particle in the construction). The particular construction in your question, however, has never been common in my experience: I haven't a cat or I've/I have no cat, but not I have not a cat. I think you'll find it in nineteenth century writing though. ColinFine (talk) 21:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, here we go: W. S. Gilbert, Ruddigore (1887), Act I: Sir Despard: "I have not a heart of that description". ColinFine (talk) 21:39, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Is there any dialect that does not use do-support at all, and where Lee eats not apples is grammatical?

--40bus (talk) 21:38, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not aware of a present-day dialect of that description. ColinFine (talk) 21:40, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

"Lee isn't / Lee's not eating apples" is correct, though. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:22, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Latin had inflectional passives and especially deponent verbs which served some of the functions of modern Romance reflexive verbs... AnonMoos (talk) 23:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

7. In loanwords it can happen, e.g. sinus, though I haven't checked if there's an example for all the consonants you mentioned. Double sharp (talk) 23:30, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Question 11

Why Korean has not switched to Latin alphabet like Vietnamese did? Are there any plans to switch Korean to Latin-only writing? --40bus (talk) 21:41, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

The short answer is that when Chinese characters were felt to be inadequate for purposes of modern mass literacy, both languages had a pre-existing alternative to fall back on -- Korean had the 15th-century Hangul quasi-alphabet, and Vietnamese the 16th-century missionary Latinization system. Why would Koreans give up a writing system carefully tailored to the characteristics of the Korean language for a Latinization scheme which would involve digraphs and trigraphs and diacritics? AnonMoos (talk) 23:25, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, from what I can see, Hangeul is perfectlu suitable for Korean with a logical orthography. As native literacy is widespread, there would be no actual reason to replace the alphabet. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:33, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

"Veronikahonkasalot"

This is a direct copy of the article fi:Jumalan teatteri on the Finnish Wikipedia, citing Jari Halonen in an interview:

tänä päivänä kaikki nämä veronikahonkasalot ja kaikki, ne on niin provokatorisia kuin olla ja voi

This literally means "today all these veronikahonkasalos and everybody, they are as provocative as they can be".

Now Jari Halonen was not literally talking about Veronika Honkasalo. Instead he used her name as a sort of "generic trademark" meaning all people like Veronika Honkasalo. Because of this, the word is spelled with a small initial letter and as a compound word.

How would this be done in English? JIP | Talk 21:09, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

You would just use the name directly, without any special marking: "all these Veronika Honkasalos and everybody, ...". --Amble (talk) 23:24, 11 February 2024 (UTC)