Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 May 31

31 May 2007

Allison Stokke

Allison Stokke (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

Holder of multiple national records in the pole vault, subject of dozens of news stories, at least 50 of them having nothing to do with her recent internet fame, speedy deleted as A7 (article about a person with no claim of importance or significance) in the middle of an AfD. Holder of multiple national records is clearly a person of significance. Requesting overturn to let the AfD run. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 22:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Relist. As the creator of the article, I am happy to let it undergo AfD, but it should be obvious that A7 of WP:CSD does not apply here. Lampman 23:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted for reasons explained at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allison Stokke by myself and others. If she becomes notable based on her sports achievements at a later date we can create a new article at that time. Burntsauce 23:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: That was an AfD discussion. The arguments brought forth there do not apply here, as we're discussing the speedy and whether A7 applies. Lampman 23:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
    • No, they apply. Deletion review is not for restoring pages that masquerade as encyclopedia articles but inevitably belong deleted. —Centrx→talk • 23:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
      • If you believe an article on a holder of multiple national records is "masquerades as an encyclopedia article" that's your opinion. My point is that the subject for discussion here is whether speedy was proper procedure, or if the community should have its say. It is hard for contributers to debate the absolute value of the article, since it doesn't exist. Lampman 23:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
        • What multiple national records has she held? I haven't found that in the links provided. Corvus cornix 23:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
          • She holds the national record in pole vault for high school freshmen and sophomores, at 12-8 and 13-5.75 respectively[1]. "Stokke, from Newport Harbor High School, is a pole vaulter with a PR of 13-5 3/4. As a junior, she took second place at the CIF State Championships with a mark of 12-9, the same mark she hit as a sophomore, when she set the national sophomore indoor record. A member of the USA Today's All-USA Girls Track Team as a sophomore, she set national age-group records of 13-5 3/4 at age 16 and 13-4 at age 15. She set a national freshman record of 12-8 and was a Verizon Junior All-American in 2004." Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 00:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. The non-meme links I can see only say that she was a regional high school champion, which clearly fails notability. If she makes the Olympics or wins the NCAAs, then write an article about her as an athlete, but the concentration on the internet meme is a BLP violation, and speedy deletion was proper. (BTW, I am basing this on the AfD discussion and the links provided, I can't see the article.) Corvus cornix 23:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Return to AfD. A7 does not apply if there is an assertion of importance, even if the assertion should prove unsourced or insufficient. The assertion of even an informal national record is an assertion of importance. Doesn't prove it, and may not be enough, but no single individual gets to decide that, & I thought that this at least was generally understood. Speedy is not elastic. BLP is not a speedy criterion, and this is not obvious BLP even if it were. Arguments to the contrary, unilateral deletions for BLP can only be justified by imminent harm, and if the story is already out in the web, there won't be any additional imminent harm. Short of that, BLP is not decided by what any one admin or editor wants to call it, but by the community. I would have removed her picture immediately if it had been there, biut the rest is arguable & should be argued. DGG 23:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy deletion is proper if the bio is non-notable, and/or if there is a BLP violation, both of which apply in this case. Corvus cornix 23:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
    • No you're wrong; BLP violation is only cause for speedy if the article is libelous, which it was clearly not. NN is only cause for speedy if it is absolutely uncontroversial, but as this discussion shows it is clearly not. But again, it is hard for contributers to assess these things when the article isn't there. Lampman 23:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Do you actually think this warrants an article in an encyclopedia? Given that you ostensibly reluctantly "Started page that will inevitably come, might as well make it a good, respectful article", why do you think this page belongs on Wikipedia. Why do you think it could ever be made into anything more than a newspaper article? If you want to write a newspaper article, see Wikinews. —Centrx→talk • 23:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
        • I could expain that, but it's not an argument I'm willing to have, because it's a complete sidetrack. The question here is not whether she is notable, that's a question for the AfD. The question is whether her notability was asserted, which it was, and as such the rules clearly state that the article cannot be speedied.
        • The real issue here is whether administrators should be allowed to sidestep rules and ignore community consensus. I for one believe not. Lampman 00:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Speedy deletion is proper when the article is used solely to comment upon a person's appearance, which is what it was doing (apparently). Corvus cornix 23:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Actually, it wasn't. It was a neutral summary of her records, her achievements, and the fact that she'd gained a notable amount of unwanted lewdness. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 00:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
        • I will take into account that you have not read the article, but I can assure you that that was not the case. There was not a POV word in the article, there was one short line - not about her appearance - but about public reaction to her appearance. The main focus was on her athletic abilities. If you had been able to read it you could have made an informed judgement rather than rely on hearsay, and that's why the AfD should be reopened. Lampman 00:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
          • • Then it should have been speedy deleted as non-notable. Corvus cornix 00:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Bloody hell no. Horrible nasty thing. Keep deleted and monitor all future creations by the author. Gah.--Doc^g 00:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse. Internet memes ARE NOT WORTHY. Sean William @ 00:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

IDON'TLIKEIT is an argument for afd not drv.Geni 01:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse on BLP grounds, but there's no way it was an A7 speedy. EliminatorJR ^Talk 00:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • You're right about A7. And BLP does not warrant speedy, only if it's libelous. Lampman 01:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Indeed, but on the other hand, if this article stands, is it going to focus on her athletic achievements, or the fact she's been a pervert magnet for half the Internet? While there is the danger of using WP:BLP as a big deletion stick (Another POINTY AfD today) there are plainly some articles that Wikipedia isn't doing itself any favours by including. Fine, relist if really necessary (after all the process was wrong, which is why we're here) but I don't see the advantage. EliminatorJR ^Talk 10:39, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse. A lot of people make and break records in high school. Even living in California, students break all sorts of school records and barely a peep in the local papers. What I am seeing on Google now is just news about her pictures being used in the blogosphere. Even some of the sites that perpetuated the meme are closing up shop and issuing an apology to her. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 00:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• go back to afd Not A7.Geni 01:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Get a life, people. This is a real live young woman we're talking about. I'm the person who deleted the article and closed the AfD. I don't particularly care if A7 applies or not. I don't particularly care if the abuse of power by certain admins angers some people. There's no grand principle at stake here which says that every article which can be written must be written. Move on to something important. -- RoySmith (talk) 02:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Relist clearly not an A7 - there was assertion of notability. (the grounds it was deleted under) Nor is it a G10 (Attack). Also I would like people to remember DRV is about policy, not content, whether you like it or not is immaterial - the issue is whether the deletion was proper under the deltin policy. Viridae^Talk 02:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• I endorse this deletion on the grounds cited in the deletion listing by David.Monniaux, particularly the biographies of living persons policy. The article did not reflect well on Wikipedia. We should be very wary of partarking, or even to appear to partake, of the culture of prurience and cyberstalking that afflicts much of the web. We're different, folks. We don't need this article. --Tony Sidaway 02:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist', improper closure. --badlydrawnjeff talk 02:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. I quote from the deleted revision using my magical admin powers: "According to her coach and her parents Alison has been somewhat disturbed by the excessive publicity." This is a clear BLP concern; we shouldn't be subjecting this girl to further unwanted attention and ogling. Krimpet (talk) 02:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • When did the Daniel Brandt argument become policy? "I'm my own person, take my article off!" –– Lid^(Talk) 03:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Daniel Brandt has been an activist for decades, constantly grappling for publicity and press on his endless tirades. All this girl is notable for is being lusted over by a bunch of horny old perverts on the internet, and she was unsurprisingly disturbed by this unwanted publicity. There's a huge difference between the two. Krimpet (talk) 05:05, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. WP:BLP supersedes process, as it should. We all know this. Chick Bowen 02:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • What? There still needs to be a process to see if BLP even applies, otherwise it's saying 'safety trumps freedom' to justify throwing people in jail without trial. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 03:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • The process is administrator conferral and common sense, and this discussion right here. And never compare an article to a person. People have rights; articles don't. Chick Bowen 04:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
      • DRV is here to certify correctness of process, not make content decisions. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 05:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
        • Screw process. This is a real person. Do you not get the fact that real live people do not give a damn about our silly processes? They care about what's being splashed all over the Internet about them. Anyone who cares more about process than content does not care about the people our content affects. FCYTravis 18:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
          • There wasn't anything offensive in the deleted article. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
            • If you don't get why the article's existence was offensive to basic human decency, you have no business commenting on issues affecting living people. You're arguing that for the entirety of her life, the next 65+ years, this woman should have to put up with an "encyclopedia article" which reminds everyone that when she was 18, a bunch of basement-bound bloggers passed her photo around like some piece of meat? You have no sense of ethics. This article has no need of existing right now. FCYTravis 18:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
              • for the entirety of her life, no, I'm arguing that an article, four sentences of which are devoted to discussing other achievements and aspects of her life, and three to her internet fame, should be allowed to exist for the seven days it takes to finish the AfD that was already in process. If your concern is about 65 years down the line, why not let us take the seven days to get it right now? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                • Eventualism applies only in reverse for living people. It does zero harm to anyone to delete the article immediately and then argue about it, and then consider later whether to write an article on her. By leaving the article up, we are continuing to disseminate the harm or potential harm. FCYTravis 18:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                  • Maybe what's occurring to her is "offensive" to "basic human decency," all subjective terms that have no place in this discussion, but may otherwise. If we were simply plastering the pictures all over the place and renamed the article "pole vaulting vixen," maybe you'd have a point. But none of that is or was happening, nor would anyone let it at this point. But you have to demonstrate how an article that works off of numerous sources does any harm first. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                    • No he doesn't. You have to demonstrate why it should be allowed to stay. Quoting from WP:BLP, The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                      • No, he does if he wants this to stay deleted. The justification for how this does not violate BLP is clear. --19:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                  • Zero harm? You think it would do zero harm to delete every article in wikipedia that any administrator thinks is possibly harmful to anyone at any time in the future, and then only letting people discuss it without seeing the content? We're not throwing around ED-type allegations here, we're simply reporting what the secondary sources said. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                    • It's quite simple, really, Night Gyr. By keeping an article on this, we will never allow people to ever forget what happened to this woman. We will come up on their Google for the remainder of their natural-born lives. That is something we must take into consideration. Blogs shut down and disappear without a trace. People forget. But Wikipedia is forever - and that's not always a good thing. FCYTravis 18:57, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                      • The issue here is not whether the article should exist forever, it's whether it should be allowed a full deletion discussion. You're ignoring that and strawmanning. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 19:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                        • There's absolutely no point in giving it "a full deletion discussion" if the article is going to die, period. This one was going to. You keep thinking everything is about process. Let me clue you in - real people do not give a flying fuck about our silly processes. FCYTravis 19:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                          • Well sourced articles that do not violate policy are not "going to die." That does not happen, sorry. I know you want it to, but it doesn't. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                            • Oh, but they have, and they will continue to do so. You can ask the whole ArbCom to recuse if you wish, but this is the future of Wikipedia - less tabloid, more encyclopedia. Jeff, please, you and I both have better things to do than argue over this. It's happening whether anyone likes it or not. FCYTravis 19:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                              • I'm glad you're so confident. Just because you need disruption and abuse to get your position across doesn't mean the rest of us do. You're right, we both have better things to do - so start by stopping with defending disruptive nonsense. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist, clearly out of process with given no time to have a discussion on the issue, A7 obviously not applying dueto numerous notability claims (backed with sources) and the people screaming BLP need to realise BLP is for the deletion of information from articles, not a reason listed under WP:SPEEDY (except in cases of extreme libel). This recent BLP vs Keep period hs been mind boggling. –– Lid^(Talk) 03:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. Yeah, I know it was deleted. I don't see, and have never really understood, why it's worth angering and alienating members of the community over failing to allow even a debate to take place, and trusting that a closing admin will interpret things properly. But anyway, this is a NN high school athlete that would have no coverage at all if she weren't a victim of unwanted publicity. I guess I can see why it made the news once, but that doesn't make it a topic we should really have in the encyclopedia. If she becomes legitimately famous for her accomplishments as an athlete, or if she becomes notable in some other way, the article can be recreated, and the unfortunate incident can be covered. But for now she's not there yet. Mangojuice^talk 05:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • "would have no coverage at all if she weren't a victim of unwanted publicity" -- Did you miss the 52 news stories I cited that discuss her before the internet publicity? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 06:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I meant, no coverage here. It's quite obvious to me, that her track and field accomplishments (though fairly imprssive) would not have led to her being written up in Wikipedia had it not been for this unfortunate internet meme. The edit history confirms this: the page was first created back at the end of April, with "Hot pole vaulter..." as the main point. Mangojuice^talk 11:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist obviously failed CSD criteria, was already on afd and was headed towards delete, hell the admin even deleted the AFD! Thats just not done. I also feel this subject is notable per her records, All americans are clearly determined notable by consensus as we have over a hundred in Category:McDonald's High School All-Americans.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 06:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Obvious overturn; unlike most Internet memes, this actually rated an article in the Washington Post. I'm very disturbed by the new trend of using WP:BLP as a justification to delete articles when the real reason for deletion is WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Were there unsourced or poorly sourced statements about Ms. Stokes in this article? If so, remove those statements, and start from scratch if needed. If not, then it doesn't fall under BLP. Period. There is no such thing as an article title that inherently violates BLP. *** Crotalus *** 06:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't think Unsubstantiated rumors about Crotalus horridus would fly under BLP :P Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 06:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • There would be no need to invoke BLP because such a page would violate WP:V and WP:RS. On the other hand, if a major national newspaper printed a story about me, then an article would be justified even if the subject of coverage was trivial and/or embarrasing. *** Crotalus *** 06:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
      • False. That would be Wikinews, which is ----> that way. Having a single article published about you in a major national newspaper or magazine does not make you encyclopedic. If that was the case, I would be encyclopedic, as a 70,000-circulation national road racing magazine published a page-long profile feature on me. That doesn't make me encyclopedic. We do not write "biographies" of every single person who was once in a newspaper. FCYTravis 18:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse outcome, do not endorse means used to get there or rationale. In the end, this is indeed a 15-minutes-of-fame story that belongs on Wikinews, not Wikipedia. But BLP certainly does not apply here. I looked at the deleted article, and I fail to see any unsourced or poorly sourced negative information, nor any non-neutral language used to attack, nor even any undue weight issues. In the end, I would've still argued to delete on notability grounds, and I think that would have been the eventual outcome. But BLP has got to quit being used as the big hammer when someone just doesn't like it. Sometimes, it will be encyclopedic to cover bad things that happen to people. In this case, it's not. But we need to quit overextending BLP. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 08:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn notability clearly established. Internet meme or not, she is notable.  Grue  11:11, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oh for Christ's sake. If the Internets were not circulating pictures and going "PHWOOOOAR!" would we even have the article in the first place? We can either have an article excluding the mention of this ridiculous crap, which is a one-liner but an acceptable stub, and permanently protect it, or we can leave it deleted, or we can redirect to a page on junior US athletics records and leave it at that. Wat is not acceptable is the article in the form as deleted, as should be blindingly obvious to everybody. Internet meme my arse - nice looking girl drooled over by nerds without a girlfriend is the limit of that shit. Guy (Help!) 11:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion, however it is we got there, per JzG in particular. In cases of minor internet celebrities (and she is minor), first do no harm. Process concerns will have to take a number. Mackensen (talk) 11:25, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse, the assertion of notability is more about how a website posted a picture of her and then a big pervert furore took place, which is not good - BLP is expressly for this kind of shit. Neil (►) 12:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: Here’s another couple of articles that should be speedied if we are gonna be consistent: Prince William: the poor kid didn’t ask for the attention and I’m sure he would be happier without it. Notability, of course, doesn’t apply when there are BLP concerns. Star Wars kid: this is pretty obvious – unlike Stokke he didn’t deliberately do anything to get notable, unlike her the attention he got was purely negative, and unlike her he was far below the age of majority at the time.

• To be honest I couldn’t care less if the article stays or goes. I’ve seen the girl jump and I’m convinced that, come Beijing, there won’t be a power-tripping admin in the world who can keep her from having her own article. What I don’t like is admins playing God. Of those who endorse deletion I’ve seen a lot of arguments about her notability, but I haven’t seen anyone able to explain how this article warrants a speedy. That’s because it doesn’t. Lampman 12:16, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

  WP:BLP. Her only real assertions to notability (to date) was being the subject of a pervertapalooza. Neil (►) 12:23, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

  That's simply not true. High school athletes can be notable if they show enough potential. Kevin Garnett and Lebron James were both on the cover of Sports Illustrated while still in high school. But more importantly: WP:BLP is not grounds for speedy! Lampman 12:30, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

  Was it well sourced? Because if not, you may have been able to delete that portion for the time being. You do realize, however, that she was on the front page of the Washington Post, right? --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

  Was she on the front of the Post for winning her high school pole vault? Neil (►) 15:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

  Is that relevant? --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

  It was better sourced than 99% of the articles out there, with inline citations from reliable news sources. Again, contributers aren't able to make an informed opinion because some admin circumvented the rules, so they have to rely on hearsay instead. Lampman 14:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• Question: how many "high-school champions" are there out there? Just how notable are this girl's athletic achievements? Given that she is so young, it is highly unlikely that she has progressed to the point where she is significant on a global scale, and most of the references to her actual abilities that I have seen were from local news only. If in some years she progresses to senior competition, rather than just fading away into the crowd, maybe we can resurrect this article. —Phil | Talk 14:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • My understanding from the articles I've read is that she's a national record holder for her level, meaning that she holds the record for pole vaulting for high schoolers. It's significant on a national scale, for sure - global, maybe not, but that doesn't really make a difference. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• I restored a temporary copy of the most recent version of the article at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 May 31/Allison Stokke Temp in case anybody wants to see the contents. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Already deleted for the same reasons this article was. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Got it in one.--Doc^g 15:03, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Given that the original deletion was inappropriate, however, a histoy undeletion would be useful here. I know you won't do it, but it's worth noting. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
        • Of course, instead of Wikilawyering about process and making hysterical accusations, you could address which of the three permissible outcomes you prefer: merge to an article on high school atlhetic records; a one-liner without the perv-o-rama; or deletion until she achieves some more widespread and substantive coverage outside of the athletic achievement. Any of these three would be fine per policy. Do feel free to choose one. Guy (Help!) 15:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
          • None of the above. A full article on her and the situation is entirely warranted per all relevant policies. Instead of being rude and accusing people of Wikilawyering, you could admit that maybe, just maybe, there wasn't a violation for anything here. So I pick option four - full restoral. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted Apart from this lurid incident and short-lived Internet meme, she is just yet another gifted young athlete. David.Monniaux 14:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, high school athlete plus some news stories is not enough to overrule WP:BLP here. Kusma (talk) 15:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

  You have obviously misunderstood the argument: BLP policy is not about speedy. The issue here is whether speedying the article was correct. Lampman 15:25, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

  Keep in mind, also, that no BLP issue has been adequately supported. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep deleted, but there was no particular reason to speedy it. It was already listed on AFD, that would have been fine. I don't see how it's an emergency for us to get rid of a sourced article that doesn't say anything not already being said by lots of news sources. In other words, there's no reason to use cries of "BLP! It must go!" in this case. Friday (talk) 15:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • So why are you endorsing? --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • This is a flash-in-the-pan human interest story, and we're an encyclopedia here. If we didn't have this ridiculous "you can't see it because it was deleted" bug, you'd be able to see where I prodded it for that reason. Friday (talk) 15:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Well, that's unfortunate that we don't get to discuss those merits. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
      • DRV isn't about if you think it should exist or not, it's about whether you think the process was correctly followed. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 16:02, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
        • I disagree. It would be a completely lame waste of time for me to argue to undelete, only to want delete it again by a longer process. No further information would have come out at AFD, it would just have produced the usual keep versus delete arguments, which are already well understood. All that's left would be to interpret the results, and we've already got the right interpretation in this case. Friday (talk) 16:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
          • Not to mention a lot of people don't think this is the correct answer. The endorsement gives the impression that you don't want those voices to be heard. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
            • • Jeff, we hear nothing but your voice. Those who want this crap undeleted are free to speak here.--Doc^g 16:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                • Unfortunately, we're at a loss, since we can't see what was there. So this ends up being a worthless discussion on the merits of the article if we can't see what's there. I'd hate to think that the overriding intent is exactly that, but it's becoming harder and harder to assume otherwise. There's no way to have a good discussion on the merits of an article we can't see. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                • Please keep it civil. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 16:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
          • (edit conflict)The whole point is to figure out with a broader consensus what the right answer actually is. Otherwise it's just saying that the guy everyone knows is guilty doesn't deserve another trial, even though he got railroaded by a corrupt judge in the first one. Respect for the rules is necessary to keep a smoothly functioning system. The time and effort of running an afd is far less than the aggravation caused by disruptions of process. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 16:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
            • There's no point in running an afd. We are debating it here. Although why we are debating this horrible, intrusive and two-week-old internet meme, I have no idea.--Doc^g 16:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
              • You mean WP:CUTEGIRL is not a good reason to keep? Friday (talk) 16:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
                • You mean WP:IFEELBADLYABOUTIT is a good reason to delete? --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
              • We were running an afd until RoySmith cut it short, and you cut off any attempt to actually discuss the content by removing his temporary restoration. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 16:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist We have an AFD process which works very well, and this article should be judged on its merits. There are a great many newspaper articles which have substantial coverage of her athletic achievements prior to and independent of any internet fame for a photo. If we need a policy provision allowing deletion of articles which some feel might be embarrassing to minors, then by all means add such provisions to WP:BIO , WP:BLP , or WP:CSD. Wikipedia should follow its policies and guidelines, and not the whims of admins who feel their moral compass points truer than those of their peers. Edison 16:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion Blind adherence to process should never outweigh common decency and common sense. -- Donald Albury 17:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse the original deletion was appropriate in the spirit of WP:BLP. Wikilawyering over this could well have real life ramifications for the subject of the article, so there is no reason not to stop it early. We're an encyclopedia, not a tabliod. If you want to write a decent article on a meme, Wikinews is ----------------> over here. Martinp23 17:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins, Oliver Wendell Holmes. That's what we're talking about here. Was the deletion in-process? Maybe not, but I don't care. Was everything in the article accurate, verifiable, and backed up by proper citations to good sources? Probably, but again, I don't care. The point is, Wikipedia having this article may cause harm to an innocent person. As far as I'm concerned, that's the only argument that matters. Something can be 100% right and still be wrong. -- RoySmith (talk) 17:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • What harm? --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse. The discussion that the speedy deletion has generated here is probably an indication that it's a contentious enough decision that it should not have been speedied - certainly it does not seem to qualify per CSD guidelines. Nevertheless I believe that the outcome would have been to delete this anyway, and to force it back through AfD is a bit too much process wonkery for me. Arkyan • ^(talk) 17:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn Not a valid speedy deletion. Plenty of neutral reliable sources available to produce article on this subject. Catchpole 18:01, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse - What on Earth has Wikipedia come to when people are defending a "biographical article" the sum total of which consists of the fact that a bunch of bloggers leered at her photo? To quote CBS News, "Meet the Greta Garbo of the Internet: Allison Stokke. She’s 18 years old, athletic, attractive and wants to be left the hell alone." We're going to leave her the hell alone. FCYTravis 18:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • That would be terrible. That wasn't what the article was. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not commenting either way on the article, but if "wanting to be left the hell alone" were a criterion, wouldn't we have deleted this article some time ago? Should we revive discussion of an "opt-out" policy for living people? JavaTenor 18:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • The more tabloid trash articles like this we have, the more I start to agree with Mr. Brandt. Perhaps we should issue a policy which says we don't cover living people at all. It's going to come to that point if we keep treating the subjects of our articles as if they don't matter. FCYTravis 18:43, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Wikipedia is not a tabloid. We aren't Encyclopedia Dramatica, either. --Carnildo 18:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse Marginal notebility plus BLP concerns = delete. (I am happy to agree that A7 doesn't apply, but that doesn;t decide this case.) Eluchil404 18:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • delete != speedy delete debatably deletable material shouldn't be speedied. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 19:26, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I've emailed the Washington Post writer responsible for the front page article about her; I'll forward Allison a copy of the deleted article if I can get in touch with her. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 19:38, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • This is a threat which violates policy and common sense and will almost certainly lead to your desysopping. FCYTravis 20:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Just a note, he appears to be offering to email a copy to the subject of the article, not to the Washington Post, if I read it correctly. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse the speedy. Perfectly valid delete on BLP grounds. Anyone who thinks differently really doesn't understand the intent of BLP and needs to rethink their position. There are many voices here saying that now and it will become increasingly clear that articles such as this will not survive in the end. Having protracted wrangling about it for each such incident is divisive and unnecessary, and will become increasingly clear over time that it will not be tolerated, I predict. Some of the people speaking out to try to save it are making rather shocking statements... that the deletion is the right thing but that we have to have a DRV or an AFD anyway, that BLP doesn't say that privacy and doing the right thing aren't important, or even that if things don't go a certain way that they will contact the media with deleted content. That last matter is gravely serious and shocking, and unacceptable of someone the community placed trust in. "endorse delete" and close this DRV early as being out of order. ++Lar: t/c 20:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • As I understand it, the offer was to email it to the subject of the article, not to the media. JavaTenor 20:38, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • What was valid about it? Was it an unsourced negative page about a living person? Nope. Was it an attack page? Nope. So no, the deletion was not "perfectly valid." Also, anyone thinking of closing this early or in the requisite five days should know that the strength of argument is what's important here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Have you read WP:BLP?: In case of doubt, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. When writing about a person who is only notable for one or two events, including every detail, no matter how well-sourced, can lead to problems. In the best case, this can simply lead to an unencyclopedic article. In the worst case, this can be a serious violation of our policies on neutrality. When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic.,=. Corvus cornix 20:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm very aware of it. There's no doubt here. This did not qualify. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:51, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
        • The article condemns itself: "became an overnight internet phenomenon" == Not notable except for being a meme. "Alison has been somewhat disturbed by the excessive publicity" == the publicity is doing her harm. QED. After paring back the tabloid sensationalism, the fact that people drool over her, there's nothing left. Do no harm. This is an OBVIOUS speedy. Unless this is a project I (and many others, including, dare I say it, Jimbo himself) do not care to be associated with, that is. Perhaps you should fork, Jeff. Your views are clearly far, far outside the mainstream. ++Lar: t/c 21:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
          • Wow. I'm civil to you and you make an asshole comment in return. Nice job. --badlydrawnjeff talk 23:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
            • EH? you lost me there. What comment are you referring to? I refuted your statement of "there's no doubt" it did not qualify, by showing that conversely, there's no doubt that this WAS a good deletion, that it DID qualify, as the article itself proves it. And if you don't see that, your views are indeed far outside the mainsteam. And IF your views are far outside the mainstream of this project, forking is the correct thing to do. It's how open source projects grow and prosper, after all. Perhaps you are right, and the rest of us are wrong. The entire project is GFDL or otherwise free content (that's the point after all) so you can start afresh if you so wish, as other forks have done in the past. But I despair of reasoning with you, you seem so devoutly certain that there are absolutely no circumstances under which something might be a BLP issue. Here we have someone non notable who does not WANT notoriety, who has been victimised by having it thrust upon her and you just don't have the common, man-in-the-pub decency to let her be. ++Lar: t/c 01:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
• Relist. Letting the AfD run its course would be less drama and make more sense, as now this DRv is performing as the AfD, which its not intended to do. Then Delete because of the BLP concerns. Regardless of the "vote" total, of course. Unless someone can come up with an argument that trumps that. Who knows? Also: if we cannot get a majority of !voters to support deletion for reasons of BLP or indeed WP:BASICHUMANDIGNITY in cases like this, we have a cultural problem that we need to work on. Ham-handed attempts to cut off discussion are not the way to do this. Herostratus 21:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Ignoring lurid and sensational coverage of her status as an "internet phenomenon", there is very little here. A stub containing just the first paragraph of the last deleted version would probably be okay, but it would almost certainly need to be protected. Christopher Parham (talk) 21:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep deleted until she conquers the world as a vaulter. Passing meme that'll be forgotten about in two weeks. Moreschi ^Talk 21:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist on AfD Setting a national record in a recognized sport is normally considerd notable, in any of itself, regardless of any "internet meme". This is true even for an age-restricted record. Unless we ahve changed our inclusion policy drastically quite recently, there should be an article on her for the sports achievements alone. Whether the intrnet stuiff should be there is an editorial decision, ther is enough for an articel even if it is removed. It is all well cited, and does not appear to me to be "negative or controversial". But even if it is all removed, national sports champions clearly pass WP:BIO and surely do not warrent A7 speedy deletes. This is simply absurd, IMO. DES ^(talk) 23:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per WP:BLP and Jimbo's edit. It may be an out-of-process deletion but it embodies the spirit of those two. As Spike Lee said, "Always do the right thing." howcheng {chat} 00:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
• Overturn/Relist - The application of BLP has been a farce of late. Why was BLP drafted in the first place? To get rid of uncited and potentially libelous information in light of the Seigenthaler embarrassment. It has been railroaded into a get out of jail free card for speedying any biographical articles that an admin doesn't like. Just give a shout of BLP and you can be sure of editors cowering away. Yet this is never what BLP was about. FCYTravis gives an impassioned cry of "Think of the children" but this is entirely irrelevant. Wikipedia is about notability, whether you're notable for being leered over, or notable for filming yourself looking like a clumsy idiot is irrelevant. Wikipedia is for the reader first, the subject's thoughts contribute very little whether we have an article or not; if you want to edit with a "Sympathetic Point of View", then head over to Wikinfo, a mirror more suitable to your tastes. Wikipedia is about neutrality, if a fat Chinese kid is noted because of his appearance, then that's what the article should concentrate on, not how awful and mean his detractors have been, it is not undue weight. And on a slight tangent, although I agree with the recently added "Subject (person's) name may not be the best place to put the article on incidents", in this case, it clearly would. I'm sure some misguided user thinks High School Pole Vault lechery controversy sidesteps BLP issues by not mentioning names, it's not, and anything like that is a ridiculous name for an article.

• Incidentally, I would vote to delete the article. This 15 seconds of fame crap just doesn't cut mustard, I had never even heard of her until now, and the articles are human interest fluff. Unless this interest persists, it just isn't notable enough (but more so that the web crap which we have), but then again I think the Essjay article is a pointless piece of Wiki-navel gazing. I'm still arguing to overturn and relist this deletion because I can see BLP speedies getting more and more contrived and gregarious. We'll be deleting well-sourced neutral information because an editor thinks sections carry undue weight when they're just biased, we'll be deleting well-sourced biographies because we think the articles existence may possibly remotely harm the subject, rather than how its harming the readers for not being there. As an example of this stupidity, I'll cite the recent Crystal Gail Mangum deletion logs in which the protected redirect is deleted for some really moot Wikipedia essay which seem to be clogging up the project space. - hahnchen 00:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

• I don't have a strong opinion on the article itself. It looks like a non-notable athlete but we have lots and lots and lots and lots of articles about athletes I would consider non-notable. The 'human dignity' etc. argument is reasonable (though I note that Star Wars kid is still a blue link, surely a far worse problem in that regard). I rather dislike admins refusing to allow non-admins to see the contents of an article for the duration of a deletion discussion. I also dislike admins making ridiculous accusations such as saying other people 'have no ethics'. If you're going to put yourselves up as the super-reasonable defenders of the encyclopedia then you have to actually be reasonable and able to have a civil argument. Haukur 00:47, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse Deletion. But let parties take this to ArbCom or policy process determine if there are times and places where egregious WP:BLP warrants a speedy. and:
  • Smack closing Admin with a trout for using an A7 justification when the AfD as listed doesn't justify that criteria at all, doubly so because even a speedy doesn't have to be done within three hours of opening an AfD. Even a WP:SNOW justification would have been better.
  • Smack all editors involved with a trout for thinking a) "This must be deleted [or kept] or WP will fall!", and b) for thinking something that's highly covered in news sources and teh internets will remain [or go away] whether or not it's at WP.
  • Smack all with trouts who think that the family itself can't find and use the libel removal process outlined in WP:BLP on their own if they feel it necessary - we don't need to defend them, they obviously can defend themselves.
  • Smack those with a trout who think temp undeletion is a problem in this case while DRV proceeds - again, if it's a properly verified article with no OR, then the information is elsewhere on the Internet, so what's the problem? This is clearly an individual case basis, where viewing the article itself at this time would help understand if a relist is necessary or not.
  • Smack Jimbo Wales with a minnow for bringing to life such a beautiful system where policies collide on such a grand scale that case-by-case determination is necessary.
  • Smack me with a trout for thinking any of this is important.

- LaughingVulcan ^{Laugh w/ Me or Logical Entries} 01:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

• Overturn and relist - not eligible for speedy, requires a full debate. BoojiBoy 02:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppet cleanup

As pointed out here on the admin board, the following users are all sockpuppets of the same person and have been blocked: Newport, Poetlister, R613vlu, Brownlee, Londoneye, Taxwoman, Simul8, Osidge, Holdenhurst and Runcorn. These ten users were in the habit of supporting each other's comments in deletion debates. As such, I request that the following debates be overturned, because the present outcome is obviously the result of sockpuppet vote stacking. Note that in all cases the closing admin was unaware of this.

Overturn and delete:

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_24#Category:Jewish_United_States_Supreme_Court_justices

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_12#Category:Jewish_businesspeople

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_10#Category:Maimonides

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_10#Category:Jewish_scientists

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fictional portrayals of psychopaths

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kinnernet

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_February_4#Category:Jewish_fencers

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zsa Zsa Riordan (2nd nomination)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/London N1

Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_December_27#Category:Actors_by_religion

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taylor Garron

Overturn and rename:

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_20#Category:United_States_National_Guard_officers

Overturn and undelete:

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_March_22#Category:Jewish_Christians

The POV should be obvious. Note that this is not a list of every deletion debate he's participated in, just the ones that would have had a meaningfully different outcome had he not. I have no objection to splitting this debate if some arguments apply to one article/category but not to the others. >Radiant< 14:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. The most recent one of these was a month ago. Wouldn't it be a better idea to simply renominate the ones you still feel should be deleted? For the record, the psychopaths AfD was already endorsed here (I don't know if there was sockpuppetry involved here, but still), and I wouldn't dare touch London N1. I really think these should simply be nominated on their own. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: I have to agree that the most useful procedure would probably be simply to renominate anything that you believe should be deleted. Of course in the nomination you would point out that the prior debate was affected by the sockpuppetry and therefore shouldn't be considered valid. However, I would support relisting anything that was deleted potentially as a result of duplicate !voting. Newyorkbrad 15:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: Yes, renominate these deletion discussions. Better to err on the side of caution.--Alabamaboy 15:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support for any where his votes actually changed the results. After that, if anyone wants to re-open discussion on one or more of these, let them do it according to the regular rules. Od Mishehu 16:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support but only for where it made a difference. There's a list here for any CfD/AfD that may have been overlooked: Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Archive/May 2007#Vote and Consensus Frauds. Actually there's a disclaimer there that those are just the most recent. There's probably more from earlier but I'm not sure anyone really wants to have to redo everything. Bulldog123 16:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taylor Garron — Lack of contribution by the sock-puppet would not have changed the no consensus outcome, since the significant argument was presented by another person.
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kinnernet — Lack of contribution by sock-puppets would still have left several editors with differing opinions.
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fictional portrayals of psychopaths — This is another discussion where knowledge of the sock-puppetry reveals a clear thread of conversation in the lower half of the discussion. However, lack of contribution by sockpuppets (which includes one additional sock-puppet who was not ballot-stuffing, incidentally) would not have influenced my contribution to the discussion. ☺ And there was significant discussion amongst non-sockpuppet editors.
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/London N1 — Another thread of conversation becomes apparent, once one knows that there's a single person there. However, article merger does not involve AFD, and the fallout from Runcorn's sock-puppetry is already being addressed for these cases at Talk:London postal district.
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zsa Zsa Riordan (2nd nomination) — Once one knows that there is one person behind the accounts editing in the lower half of the discussion, a clear thread of conversation becomes clear. This is also evident from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zsa Zsa Riordan. These discussions were clearly influenced by the deception. This is the only discussion where renominating, checking for sources first of course, would appear to be appropriate.
• What is of more concern is any AFD discussions that Runcorn closed where xyr sock-puppets were involved in the discussion. Uncle G 16:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • The second Wipipedia AFD was a bad example of that... but that has luckily already been addressed. A list of all AFDs he closed should be looked into... --W.marsh 16:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• I have listed one of these articles for a new afd here. I suspect most of this stuff will have to be relisted separately... --W.marsh 16:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse this, or maybe relisting in the case of the overturn -> deletes. Guy (Help!) 17:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• I don't have a very strong opinion here, but I would think about just relisting all of these. --After Midnight ⁰⁰⁰¹ 19:51, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• For the ones where you know what the result will be, there's not much point in re-listing, but there wouldn't be any harm in it, under the circumstances. This is a good reason to remember that the strength of the arguments and the quality of the article are more important than the number of people saying it should be kept or deleted. — CharlotteWebb 20:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Do you think that any of the AFDs apart from Zsa Zsa Riordan would have come to a different result if the same discussion had been had without the sock-puppet contributions? I think that they would have all come to the same result, for the very good reason that you touch upon: The actual substantial arguments were being made by other editors, and weren't swayed by the sock-puppets, so discounting the sock-puppet contributions doesn't really affect the discussion. I definitely think that we should not run Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/London N1 again, for the simple reason that editors appear to be already resolving it without deletion on Talk:London postal district. Let's not disrupt that. Uncle G 22:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Relist all. It would be quite difficult to discern a proper consensus from any of these debates considering his/her extensive sway over them. It would be best to give them a fair debate this time. Krimpet (talk) 22:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Relist separately and of course find any others. The articles are not identical, & the preesence of the sockpuppets so screwed up the debates that I wouldn't attempt to rejudge them hastily in one lump like this. (Knowing this does clarify some earlier unexpected decisions) DGG 23:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Relist all in order to determine an untainted consensus. Durova^Charge! 23:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Relist most of them. The categories all had a decent amount of non-sock support, so I'm not sure if a deletion would've been achieved even discounting them. Relist all cats. Fictional portrayals of psychopaths certainly saw the balance tipped by the socks, though the one major keep opinion was given by a non-sock. Relist Fictional portrayals of psychopaths. Taylor Garron had incredibly low participation, and only one of the sock army posted there; it probably should have been relisted rather than closed as no consensus. Relist Taylor Garron. Kinnernet had a good amount of non-sock support, and may have been a no consensus without them. Relist Kinnernet just to be safe. London N1 is under discussion at Talk:London postal district, so I don't think action is needed right now. Finally, Zsa Zsa Riordan is going through AfD now, and that can probably be allowed to run its course. WarpstarRider 01:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

All categories on here or all categories they've ever participated in where there could have been a difference? Some of it goes back a long time; more than a year. I'm not opposed to the idea but it would relist a LOT more cats and some more articles. Does anyone want them added to this list? Bulldog123 02:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I was just referring to the ones listed at the top of this section. I'm sure there have been a lot more XfDs that were influenced by this group; I guess you could bring them here as well. WarpstarRider 03:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• Relist any discussion in which there's a reasonable possibility that the sock voting influenced the outcome, including all of these, so that a real consensus may be reached. Any relists should specifically note that the previous outcome was influenced by sockpuppetry and should be considered invalid. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 08:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Relist all that were closed as "no consensus" and any others where there's any reasonable possibility that the socks influenced the outcome. I think consensus is something that's always worth shooting for, and untainted debate is more likely to lead us to a real consensus even in those cases where the influence of the socks may not have been the deciding factor. Xtifr _tälk 15:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Here are a few others we should consider relisting:
  • Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_16#Category:Jewish_musicians
    • Six sock !votes and lots of comments. Many of the "keeps" are also conditional so I believe a consensus for either side may have been reached otherwise.
  • Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Peruvian_Jews
    • Six sock !votes. What's shocking is this list was actually deleted DESPITE the many sock !votes, but then it was overturned at Deletion Review (Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 February#20 February 2007#List of Peruvian Jews) almost exclusively by the socks.
  • Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2006_September_10#Category:Jewish_sportspeople
    • About three or four sock !votes, ending in no consensus. I'm not sure about relisting this. It's a maybe, but I feel the others are warranted.
  • There also was a major skew of opinion on the Category:Actors by religion CfD long ago, but it seems most of the subcats were already deleted, including the parent cat, so there is no point in relisting. Bulldog123 19:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: any no-consensus closes more than a month or two old, and any keeps more than four or five months old can probably be relisted without review. Any deletions engineered by this Master of Puppets should probably be brought for review no matter how old, though. Xtifr _tälk 02:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

NWA Hawaii

NWA Hawaii (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

Apparently this was speedy deleted, though the talk page remains at Talk:NWA_Hawaii without any note of speedy deletion. While this page may deserve deletion, I do not think it is/was a candidate for speed deletion and that AfD is the proper approach. Antonrojo 13:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Question: Have you requested reconsideration by the deleting administrator? Newyorkbrad 16:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I was not aware, until now, that I could find that out through Special:Logs. The page had been deleted and restored previously, and the current note states there are very few ghits, when I am finding over 2,500 so I'll ask for more detail on the reason for deletion. Antonrojo 16:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Per my deletion summary: Spammy, written by the subject, edit war between subject and detractor, lack of independent sources, fewer than 150 unique Google hits and not a lot in there to work from in neutralising. WP:CSD G11 and A7. Guy (Help!) 22:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Written by subject? What evidence do you have of that? It's not ideal, but there is one independant source mentioned. If there's an edit war the people in it should be blocked. Never take sides (deleting takes the side of the detractor). The number of Google hits is immaterial, it's the reliability and the quality of the content that is important. The thing is officially sanctioned by the National Wrestling Alliance. At least redirect it to the main article. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• An email to OTRS from the subject complaining that other people were changing his article. Note that the editor has no significant contributions outside this subject, virtually all contribs to the subject were by this editor or by the external parties with whom he is clearly in some dispute. There are fewer than 150 unique Googles to look through and note that "NWA Hawaii" gets 2640 hits (including non-unique) whereas adding -Wikipedia takes that down to 1710, so it looks like we'r ebeing used to promote something. Hence my strong preference for waiting until an independent party decides to write this rather than a conflicted editor. Guy (Help!) 11:08, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Category:Flags of Nepal

Category:Flags of Nepal (edit | [[Talk:Category:Flags of Nepal|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

Procedural nomination by closing admin, following discussion on my talk page with a dissatisfied participant in the May 20 CfD. My reading of the debate is so completely different from that of the objector that I think a review would be helpful to both us. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse keep - The consensus for keeping the category was clear and unambiguous; 2/3 of the people voted to keep the category. jbmurray, who is disputing the decision by the administrator, seems to be unhappy that none of the participants in the discussion specifically cited WP:OCAT#Small_with_no_potential_for_growth whereas BrownHairedGirl cited this guideline when closing this discussion. In that case, may I clearly state that when I wrote my comments to keep the category, I was referring to the criteria at WP:OCAT#Small_with_no_potential_for_growth. Dr. Submillimeter 12:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• The closing looks reasonable to me. However, at some point in the future I would suggest a group nomination of this and similar categories, because such countries only has a single flag and is unlikely to have more than that any time soon. There is something to be said for the scheme, but there's also something to be said for not using cats that can only contain a single article. Endorse now, relist at some point in the future when people who care more about this issue than I do feel this is appropriate. >Radiant< 12:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment Just on this point, that it would have been better to suggest a group nomination... and beyond the fact that I raised this suggestion in the debate over what wasn't in the end my proposal. I've received this response before, but especially as someone relatively new to these Category deletion discussions I'm reluctant directly to propose mass deletions. See for instance my comments also at Wikipedia_talk:Overcategorization#Categories_for_people_comment.2Fquestions. Again, there may be some consensus behind your response, Radiant, (in which case again I'd be happy to be pointed to the relevant discussion) but it seems to make equal sense to try a test case before proposing mass deletions. I.e., in this case, discuss the case of Category:Flags of Nepal on its merits, and should consensus be reached there then apply similar logic to other categories in the parent category. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 13:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, it certainly does make sense to do a test case before a mass nomination. However, sometimes people will object to the test case merely because it isn't a mass nom (which tends to be spurious with respect to articles, but not wrt categories). That's basically what happened here ("keep as part of the overall scheme"). In such cases one may want to proceed to the mass nom at some point. >Radiant< 13:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Let me adapt some of what I said at User_talk:BrownHairedGirl: I'm surprised by the closure of the above category, not least because in the closer's summing up introduced a whole new argument, for which no consensus had been sought or found within the discussion itself. Moreover, the argument is hardly "clear": I'd say it was clearer that when Wikipedia:Categorization, for instance, talks of "large" categories, it means categories with over 200 members, such as for instance Category:Songs by artist.

Dr. Submillimeter now says that he/she had this argument in mind when commenting in the debate. I'm all the more disappointed that there was therefore no response to my specific request for the precedent as to the notion that "putting the articles 'below the line', where [they are] likely to be missed" would "disturb" the "the Category:Flags by country category tree." Had the reference been made at the time, when I asked to be pointed towards some precedent, then there might have been some discussion as to how applicable this guideline may be to the debate.

I should say that I recognize that there was a 6:3 supermajority, though I had understood, contrary to Dr. Submillimeter, that these discussions were attempts to reach consensus rather than votes.

Indeed, the context of my disappointment is less the NPOV summing up, or even whether or not Category:Flags of Nepal lives or dies, but with problems both with the Wikipedia category system (mentioned in the discussion) and the fact that there is such a marked reluctance to engage in discussion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion (for which I could provide many further examples). --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 12:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comment Jbmurray, first point: it would be nice if you could assume that I acted in good faith. As the per discussion on my talk page, I don't recognise this repeated suggestion that I "introduced a whole new argument", although I would not rule out doing so if there was a clear wider policy breach at issue (as an extreme example, if all the votes were to keep a Category:Lying evil politicians who eat babies and conspire with Satan to destroy human civilisation, I'd still close the CfD with a "speedy delete" as an attack category). That's part of what jbmurray missed: that a closing admin's job is to weigh the arguments and not just count votes. In this case, the arguments made by the keep voters agree with a current guideline, and there was no significant support for any other position based on guidelines.

The one change I might make I was closing the CfD again would be to note that a group nomination for the parent category and its sub-categories was option, but there seemed to be very support for the proposition that these categories were inherently a bad idea, so I could have been legitimately criticised for following that route. In this case, I do wonder if there might have been less complaint I had made a one-word closure; I hope not, but it would be a pity if closing admins were to feel that closing a CfD with some sort of an explanation was only going to raise the chance of accusations of bias :(

However, the conclusions I draw from this are a little wider:

1. That it is very advisable for participants in a CfD to cite the policy or guideline on which they base their !votes, so that that the discussion is comprehensible to those not versed in CfD minutiae.
2. That an explanation of a closure can help (and where a CfD is not overwhelmingly clear in its outcome, I try to close with more than a single-word "keep" or delete"), but that it cannot explain every aspect of CfD policy and practice. In this case, I think that Jbmurray appears to be at a bit of a disadvantage in not being familiar with all the relevant guidance, and I wonder whether we have sufficiently clear explanations of the CfD process?
3. That people new to CfD may find it a rather bewildering process. To some extent hat's inevitable due to the huge number of guidelines and conventions involved, but I hope that we can all remember that CfD should not be seem to develop too much of a cliquey jargon which could make the rest of community feel excluded from the process. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Reply Thanks for this, BHG. Let me first clarify that I have at no point meant to suggest that you acted in anything other than good faith. If you have received that impression, I apologize. I disagree with the way in which you closed the debate, but I hope I can express that disagreement without suggesting any deliberate malfeasance.

Second, I agree with your conclusions (above, in this discussion) on the whole. I was indeed glad (as I said on your talk page) that you pointed me to WP:OCAT#Small_with_no_potential_for_growth. I am sure I had read that page, but I had not made the connection during the debate to that clause. I wish that the connection had been made during the debate. I think that would have helped the discussion and the search for consensus. Again, I disagree with your reading of that clause (and therefore the reading that Dr. Submillimeter claims to have implicitly followed), but think that precisely for that reason it should be up for discussion. It seems to me it refers to categories with over 200 subcategories. Perhaps I'm reading it wrong, and perhaps it could be clarified further. I am genuinely seeking out (as I hope should be obvious) the reasoning and rationale and precedents behind categorization policy and decisions. Hence I explicitly asked for such precedent during the debate. I admit that I sometimes get frustrated when it seems to me that the answers to these questions are taken for granted and not worth providing. And again, I'm sorry if that makes it sound as though I am not assuming good faith. But once more, often I find in these CFD discussions either that there is little attempt to reach consensus, or that there is little done to point to previous consensus. That may indeed just be an unfortunate impression. But it's why I followed up on this particular closure. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 14:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment OK, meanwhile I've tried to spark some discussion on one of the issues that emerges from this discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Overcategorization#Question_about_Small_with_no_potential_for_growth. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 15:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure - and for the record, my reference to the category scheme in my !vote was an implicit reference to WP:OCAT as well; I will endeavour in any future similar nomination to mention it more explicitly. Otto4711 16:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse closure as reasonable, though not necessarily what I would have !voted.DGG 23:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• The only thing I can see with that category, as a vexillologist, is probably two or three articles going into that category; the flag of Nepal, maybe the royal standard and of listing of all Nepali flags in a list. While I do admit this is too small of an article and should be combined with something else, 2/3rds of the people who went there disagree with me, so I endorse the CFD. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 00:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Wjhonson/Shawn_Hornbeck

User:Wjhonson/Shawn_Hornbeck (edit | [[Talk:User:Wjhonson/Shawn_Hornbeck|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

page speedied without any valid speedy reason Wjhonson 01:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse. Per deleting admins's summary: Someone seems to be making a WP:POINT. If that article is deleted and endorsed then this is inflammatory, if it is not, it is unnecessary. Attempted end-runs around policy and process should be discouraged. --Calton | Talk 02:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Please be so good as to explain in detail how the contents of that page were any sort of end-run around any policy or process. Perhaps you're not familiar with exactly what the page said. Wjhonson 02:52, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Policy and process were not followed in any of the proposal, the discussion, or the deletion. This is part of the problem. The admins probably do not understand and certainly do not follow the policies which they quote and link to at every possible opportunity. Smackyuk 02:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC) Mispost Meant for the Daimonin review below which has been censored. 84.43.30.186 12:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion, whether or not it's an end-run around process (which, given the contentious DRV on the subject, it very well might be), this was a GFDL violation since no attempt was made to preserve the history, and the nominator did not even make very many edits to the article when it was in the article space. Valid G12 deletion. --Coredesat 04:28, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - Another vote from someone who did not actually read the page that was actually there, but only thinks they know what it said. Can we not have a coutesy undeletion of the last version so we can all see what it actually said? Wjhonson 04:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm an admin, and I saw what was there. I'm not sure if this can be undeleted for the review given that there are copyright issues involved, and you apparently revert-warred with a user over a {{db-copyvio}} tag on the page. --Coredesat 04:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - G12 is not a reason. If need be, the relevant non-offending history from the old article can be restored and userfied. We userfy deleted pages all the time on demand. Personally, though, I really don't like single-incident biographies. If this article is going to exist, it would be much better to title it by the incident like "search for Shawn Hornbeck" or something and redirect the name to it. --BigDT 05:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• This is yet another tired attempt to challenge the operation of the biographies of living persons policy. The deletion was of course unimpeachable. --Tony Sidaway 06:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - The deleted article was not a biography. The deleted article consisted of one single sentence. I'm surprised that some of you would comment without even looking at what was there JUST RECENTLY. This has nothing at all to do with what was there two, three or twelve edits ago. ONLY with what was there, last. So at least check before you comment. Wjhonson 06:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse. All the deleted version of the page said was "This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Wikipedia article "Shawn Hornbeck"." However, the BLP-violating previous version of the page was still in the history. I think this is best left gone. Neil (►) 09:35, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

• I can't see any obvious purpose for this page other than preparation for an end-run around deletion policy. Wjohnson created the article with a single sentence and a link to the deleted WP page, his post to my talk page leads me to believe that tis was done solely to avoid a G12 speedy as a GFDL violation should the deleted content be pasted in. Without the deleted content it is pointless, with it it is WP:POINT. The idea that we should have to follow yet another set of process, rehashing the same arguments between the same people in yet another venue, is just silly. There are ways and means of pursuing this dispute, this is not one of them - the phrase "get a clue" springs to mind, actually. If Wjohnson is genuinely convinced that there is an encyclopaedic subject here, he needs to work with those members of the community who have raised valid concerns with the presentation of it as a biography, rather than appearing to want to end-run round those concerns and take the dispute to yet another venue. Guy (Help!) 09:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

If you want to discuss valid reasons, you need to have some first. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion In the case of BLP, once it has been decided, then it makes sense not to permit the material on a user page, or the whole procedure is a little meaningless. I am somewhat influenced by the fact that I consider this one, as entered under the name of the young victim and in such detail, as the clearest example of true cause for BLP deletion we've seen this week.DGG 23:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comments The above comments are quite silly. The page was solely there as an EXAMPLE of how you might tag a page for Verbatim copying under the GFDL. Period. That's it. Nothing more. The page itself had no such copying, it was an example of the TAG. Get it? That's it. All the rest of this is just self-mutilation by those who think the purpose was some sort of end-run which it wasn't. The page had no biographical content. The knee-jerk reactions are really juvenile, don't you think? Wjhonson 05:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• Of course you did. and this version was just a test to see what an end-run round deletion policy would look like if someone chose to do it, right? And you just randomly chose a particularly controversial article rather than an uncontroversial one, what bad luck. How silly of us to think otherwise. Guy (Help!) 15:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• I've undeleted the page so everyone can see what it actually says. - Mgm|^(talk) 08:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion: I'm afraid that this is a fairly obvious attempt to hide a recreation in the history of a page. A clever attempt to evade policy, perhaps, but not something we should encourage. If the user really just wants to make an example of a tag, he can do so under another page name and without inappropriate history (which can be linked to even from external sites). Xtifr _tälk 16:27, 1 June 2007 (UTC)