Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

I'm not sure if this should be counted in G12 or not but...

Since we cannot accept GFDL-only licensed text content now, I suggest we add an additional criteria or amend G12 to allow speedy deletion for this situation when the entire page consists of GFDL-only content:

Incompatible licensing, a page primarily consisting of text content that is only licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License and not licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike license at all as dictated by the terms of use, and has been tagged as such for 7 days. This does not apply to media files.

Any messages sent to users would provide appropriate instructions telling them to make sure they have OTRS permission for the content. There would also be a dated template similar to the ones used for stuff like no permission in the file namespace that it can be tagged with during the waiting period. The 7-day wait is to ensure that attempts to get the proper permission can be made. Something like this would be good, right? ViperSnake151  Talk  21:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

WP:CP is already set up for that kind of thing. I'm not sure we need a new category of speedy. The seven days pass automatically when the article is listed at the bottom. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 21:32, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

It will be a long time before people realise this, and the proper course should be educating them, not speedy-deleting. We should consider making that 30 days, not 7. DGG (talk) 17:06, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Should we eliminate C1

I know that it may not make sense on the surface to remove a criteria that deletes something that is empty. The problem is that C1 is being used to bypass the process in WP:CFD. These are typically hard to catch especially since more admins don't take the time to see if the category was emptied out of process. This is not easy since there are no tools to make this easy to do. Some editors have found ways to use the google cache to get an older picture. But that still requires digging to find out why it was emptied. I suspect that most of these deletions are actually out of process so we could hold the admins doing the deletes accountable for out of process deletions. Clearly that is not my intent. I'd rather remove a deletion criteria that can cause well meaning admins to violate process. One editor recently admitted that they were using the C1 process to cleanup after page moves with the specific intent to avoid a full CfD discussion.

If we eliminate C1, it would need to be replaced with a speedy deletion somewhere in CfD. Most likely an addition to the speedy rename process that is there already.

I'm not ready to propose this quite yet, but just wanted to open a discussion to see how others feel. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

• I often look at C1 nominations. In my judgment, probably 75% of them are cases where an editor has manually emptied the category and then immediately nominated it for deletion. It's essentially a way around WP:CFD if you don't get caught. Editors sometimes do it because they want to change the name of a category, but often it's done apparently just because the user doesn't like the existence of the category. I'm aware of the problem so I always do the "digging", but it is a real pain, and I suspect many admins don't bother to do the digging. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
  • I think people experienced with categories would probably do a better job making the calls on both C1 and C2, and be held more accountable, than would people experienced with speedy deletions, and I don't see any harm in removing C1 and C2 from this page ... it wouldn't mean categories couldn't be deleted quickly, since SNOW closures have traditionally been available at XfD. We could still speedily delete the categories that require it, for instance per G3. - Dank (push to talk) 23:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
• I've always wondered why C1 didn't get put into dated subcategories like the image csds do, instead relying on the tagger to keep track - it'd be trivial to write a bot to remove unexpired C1 tags from populated categories. —Korath (Talk) 00:25, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
  • That does not fix the problem where an editor empties a category, waits 4 days and nominates it for deletion. They simply bypass the review process. Adding to the speedy rename approval process at least provides some level of review and if there are no objections, it gets deleted in 48 hours. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:33, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
    • In that case, it'd sit in the dated csd subcats for another four days before being speedied, unless someone adds it directly to an old day's subcat. This would be comparable to replacing an article with word salad and then tagging it {{db-nonsense}}, and could probably be caught by the abuse filter besides if it turned out to be a problem. (Anyone ever see this happen with the image subcats?)
      
      On the other hand, if the intent is to send all category deletions through CFD, rather than curbing out-of-process speedies caused by the difficulty in seeing what used to be in the category and when, that's something else entirely. —Korath (Talk) 01:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
      • The intent would be to control out of process changes. Vegaswikian (talk) 04:38, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

One small change we could try, and see what happens: change C1 and C2 so that they're no longer subcats of the CSD cat, so that they don't show up at CAT:CSD, and instead make them appear on the CFD page. - Dank (push to talk) 12:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that any of the admins actually look at Category:Categories for discussion. This would at least remove the temptation for those not aware of the potential for problems. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I take a look every few weeks,but it seems an obscure process attended almost entirely by a few specialists, and that seems designed to discourage any general discussion. DGG (talk) 17:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, I made that change and moved these into Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion so we can see how it works for C1 and C2. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Noticeboard?

For the same reasons that RS has RSN, BLP has WP:BLPN, COI has WP:COIN, etc ... would the wiki esplode if we had a speedy deletion noticeboard? I've been asking questions about individual articles here, so far, but if I could go into greater detail and ask more questions, it would be helpful, although maybe too tedious for WT:CSD. If people drop by and comment, great, if they don't, then we shut it down and post the notices here instead. - Dank (push to talk) 19:21, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Please God no. There are already far too many noticeboards. --MZMcBride (talk) 19:24, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

If deletion of a particular article is complicated enough that it requires discussion at a noticeboard, then it should not be speedy deleted - it should be taken to xFD. xFD is the deletion noticeboard. --B (talk) 19:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Ah, that's just what I'm trying to combat ... the notion that there's really nothing interesting to say about the application of the speedy criteria, that all will be solved if we just take it to AfD and answer the question, "should this article be deleted?" There's a lot more to speedy than that. "Please God no" gave me a chuckle, and I sympathize, so I won't create a separate board ... but I promise this is going to get tedious, there's an awful lot to talk about, and I don't know how to reduce the tedium for people who really aren't interested. On another note ... I've just added {{noindex}} to this page (I used to be able to find out which Wikipedia pages were already covered by our robots.txt, but I can't find that information today, I think things got moved around). It seems to me that it's contrary to the spirit of speedy deletion to delete an article speedily or threaten to, but then wind up prolonging the time that it's picked up by search engines by discussing it here. - Dank (push to talk) 19:39, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

I definitely agree with that, & think we should use it much more widely for everything outside article space. DGG (talk) 17:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC).

B (talk · contribs) is right. If you aren't sure, xfd it. ⟳ausa کui ^× 04:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Früctan

Okay, first up is Früctan, this was just tagged and speedied as db-spam, here's the text:

Früctan

Früctan- (frroo-ck-tahn) origin fructo, meaning fruit; as it is said to be the sweet fruit from the chicken Invented on the 19th of June 2009, Früctan is an extraordinary snack/treat which is quick and simple to make and not only provides intense flavour but also saves money. It is often made alongside meringue, as the recipe only requires the yolk of an egg. Früctan is a perfect snack as it takes only 8 minutes to prepare and 1 minute to cook. Can be served with golden-syrup, cream, raisins or even meringue. For the recipe, go to wiki-how. Creators: Alice Booth-Sheffield born 1993 Jessica Piette-Swiss born 1992 Experiences with Früctan: 'I smelled it from next door when Booth and Piette were making it for the first time- it reminded of the sweet hours of my childhood, when my mother would make meringue except that this smell had a new twist. When I finally tasted it, I knew that meringue would never be enough for me anymore. There had to be something more... And Früctan was that; exactly that.' anonamous

FWIW, my vote would have been to speedy it, too, for the same reason I'd speedy anything by a first-time contributor (User:Alicenjess in this case) that sounds like "It's so tasty, make it today!" But there's a reasonable counterargument that goes something like this: db-spam is for identifying those articles that either are highly likely to be promotional (for instance, if the username is the company name) or articles where you can't nail down the COI, but the language used is exactly the kind of language used if there were COI. If an innocent first-time contributor wanders by some company's website, copies their promotional brochure, re-writes it just enough to avoid G12, and posts it, then db-spam is fine, in general. So ... what person, business, product, or ideology was this article promoting? The ideology of meringue-based cooking? Are they trying to sell eggs for the Dairy Council? They didn't give the link to wiki-how, but if this really was invented 2 days ago, then it hasn't had time to show up in a cookbook that they might be trying to sell. This is probably WP:NFT, but what's it promoting? - Dank (push to talk) 20:26, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Please feel free to weigh in, I'm not trying to force any particular speedy ideology (and if I do, you can revert it as spam). For articles tagged but not yet deleted, would a notice right under the speedy tag that the article is being discussed at WT:CSD be sufficient notification to the tagger and admin? I won't in general know who the deleting or declining admin will be of course, and it will be a little tedious to keep an eye on it. I'll notify all the frequent taggers now that they might want to keep an eye on this page if they don't already. - Dank (push to talk) 20:53, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

P.P.S. I've seen a lot of "Hello world, my name is X and I just invented this today!" kind of articles in the speedy queue, and this is maybe one of those. I wouldn't holler if we decide that it's so likely that the intent is to promote the person, even if the article title is the thing they invented, that all such articles are db-spammed ... but I'm not going to make that call, and either way, I'd like to see some discussion so that I know how to apply the criteria. - Dank (push to talk) 21:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

This seems to me a classic of the all-too-frequent "Blatantly made up one day" type of article, for which I think we need a new speedy: I did once suggest that, but the idea didn't get much support, people said if it was blatant enough G3 would cover it and otherwise it should go to PROD/AfD. If I saw that one, I think I would PROD it and refer the author to WP:NOT-a-recipe-book; or else I would make a note, wait an hour, and then quite likely find it had been speedied as no-context or hoax/vandalism, neither of which really apply but which often seem to be used to get rid of things that clearly need to go but don't fit the strict criteria. JohnCD (talk) 21:12, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

The problem with CSD in general is that when you notify the creator with a template, the creator sees only a vague invocation of one of the narrowly defined criteria, and the applicability of a specific criterion is not always obvious to the newbie. This is why I use prod on articles like this one (the notification template spells out the full nominator's rationale), but when such articles are deprodded I do not hesitate to send them to AfD, and in cases like this one WP:SNOW is invoked pretty early. I would certainly not contest a speedy on this one, but I just wouldn't tag it myself.

As for the applicability of G3 here, my reply is a resounding no. The very nature of G3 assumes bad faith on the article creator's part. Should we have a speedy criterion that applies to inventions, including neologisms, or WP:MADEUP in general? Certainly. We are getting way too many of those. Do we have one that clearly applies right now? Not that I can think of. -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 23:11, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

We should not have such a speedy category, because no two people are adequate to judge whether in fact it is invented--articles nominated for AfD as neologisms are sometimes kept. As for this article, it is not in any serious way promotion of anything, and an inappropriate overuse of G11. It amounts to a joke, and if I speedied it, as I probably would, I would call it a test page. DGG (talk) 17:16, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Dead Man's Party (Six Flags Great Adventure)

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Dead Man's Party (Six Flags Great Adventure)

Infobox Musical | name = Dead Man's Party | theme park = Six Flag's Great Adventure | theatre = The Stage in front of the Big Wheel | productions = Six Flag's Great Adventure during Fright Fest Dead Man's Party is a musical theater production at Six Flags Great Adventure in Jackson, New Jersey. It is hands down the best yearly attraction act the park which draws crowds of hundreds of people several times daily during the annual Six Flags Fright Fest. The cast and crew do a great job and the performance is entertaining and consistently well done. It is about 25 minutes long. Song Listing in 2008 1st Thriller - Micheal Jackson 2nd Ramalama - Roisin Murphy 3rd Dead Man's Party - Oingo Boingo 4th Meet the Creeper - Rob Zombie 5th Halloween - Aqua 6th Phantom of the Opera - Nightwish 7th No One Lives Forever - Oingo Boingo 8th Ballroom Blitz - Sweet

I deleted per db-org instead of the suggested db-spam ... agreed? If someone writes about something they enjoy, and they don't use language that's right out of the brochure or sounds like it could be, then that's not considered promotional enough for db-spam ... even if they are really enthusiastic. Another factor in declining the db-spam was that the article creator had made a few edits to unrelated articles. - Dank (push to talk) 22:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Btw, about that db-org, I want to make a small tweak to my usual deletion summary (No independent sources, no suggestion that they exist, and no significant hits at google.com/archivesearch. See A7 on the "importance or significance" of an organization), but I can't come up with anything that's short and also precise. I really mean "Nothing that you wrote gives me an idea where I might look and reasonably expect to find a reliable source that suggests significance." Thoughts? - Dank (push to talk) 23:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

My view on A7 (also on A9, G3-hoax, and the WP:MADEUP speedy proposed above) is that it should be for cases where the article gives one no reason to even bother with a Google search. (Whether I apply that consistently in my own tagging is another matter.) But if the creator inadvertently made a new article sound too promotional, he definitely needs to be informed of it. In cases where an article is so full of praise that it needs a complete rewrite (that is, the article is unsalvageable), yes, G11 may apply regardless of the creator's lack of a link to the subject, but in less blatant cases the {{advert}} template is sufficient as a patroller intervention. -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 23:27, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The {{review}} template might also be of help here. -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 00:26, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

It is possible that this might in fact be a well-known production. If so, the article could be re-written into an appropriate stub. It needs a check for possible refs. before deletion via any process. It falls in none of the classes for G7--it's a show, not an organization, and it's not hopeless promotional, for it would be easy enough to rewrite. An incorrect speedy. DGG (talk) 18:04, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dead Man's Party (Six Flags Great Adventure). - Dank (push to talk) 19:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Two image CSD questions

I have a pair of questions about the CSD criteria for deleting file:

1. If I tag an article with a template like {{di-no source}}, can I still delete it after the 7 days? Or is another administrator needed? I have the same question about FFD and PUF, but that's for a different location.
2. Why do rescaled fair-use images need to wait seven days until deletion the same way that actually orphaned fair-use image do? Are these ever contested? Why would they be? IMO, F5 should be changed to be "7 days for a completely unused image, but if a non-free image is rescaled the previous, larger version(s) can be deleted at any time" (not exact wording, of course).

Thanks! –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 14:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

For rescaled images, I have seen images rescaled by 1% or less. THis just degrades the quality for no benefit. Also rescaled images that are made too small or poor quality. There should be a chance for people to notice things have gone wrong. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't the admins usually notice those things? –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 22:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the above rewording. I actually came to this talk page for the same question. If the image needs to be resized again, the admin can just re-add {{non-free reduce}}. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 17:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Straw poll

Should rescaled fair-use images need to be kept for at least 7 days before the larger version can be deleted?

Support, per my above comments. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 14:36, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Support above rewording ("7 days for a completely unused image, but if a non-free image is rescaled the previous, larger version(s) can be deleted at any time") or something similar to it. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 16:00, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

U1 vs G7

I notice that CSD U1 and G7 is similar. While G7 requires good faith/blanking, U1 does not. Is both same? The Junk Police (reports|works) 04:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

G7 requires that no one except the person requesting deletion have made any substantial edits to the page, U1 does not have that requirement. Mr.Z-man 04:29, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

U1 means that if someone goes into your user space and puts in something you don't want there you may request deletion on sight. That's just one example of U1 applying where G7 does not. -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 10:15, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

And most importantly, obvious though it may be, U1 only applies within your own user space. decltype (talk) 10:29, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

An example, I had an essay, that I wrote in my user space. This essay was heavily edited by others. Enough so, that I eventually moved it out of my user space and into the wikipedia space as a community essay. Prior to my moving it, I could have had it deleted by another admin by simply saying, "delete this." As it was in my user space, the request would have most likely been fulfilled. Now that it is in the wikipedia space, if I make the same request, the same admin would deny it as it has been heavily edited by others.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 18:49, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Separation between tagger and deleting admin

It's been brought to my attention that there's nothing in the actual CSD policy to prevent the entire speedy deletion process being implemented by one person. In other words, as the policy's presently written, the tagger and the deleting admin could be the same person. This strikes me as potentially very problematic.

I agree with Uninvited Company when he says that CSD is increasingly becoming the deletion policy of the project, and I'm concerned that the whole thing can be done by one person. The potential for error there is too high.

I propose a change in the wording of the policy, such that the tagger and the deleter should be two separate people.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 18:27, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

While I agree that problems may arise, usually admins tag them if they are the first "on the scene". While such a change seems to make sense, there are many many speedy candidates that are uncontroversial and where a second look is simply not needed, either because the subject is clear or the reviewing admin is skilled enough to make the decision correctly. Regards SoWhy 18:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The CSD system that Twinkle provides for admin use defaults to delete when one selects a CSD tag, which I discovered much to my surprise one day while trying to tag something for someone else to look at. If I'm doing RCP and spot a page that needs consideration, unless it's an egregious and obvious delete, I tag it and leave it for other admins to consider. I'd agree that we need to ensure that this is outlined in the policy - every CSD except the most blatant and obvious situations should be seen by two admins at the absolute minimum. Tony Fox (arf!) 18:47, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I've asked many times for an option to change that TW default and haven't gotten anywhere. :( For most CSDs, I support having two people look at it. The only ones I delete without having another pair of eyes on it are clear attack pages ("Joey is a loser and smells bad"), screamingly, blindingly obvious vandalism ("poooooooooooop"), and screamingly, blindingly obvious A7's ("Amanda is a cute girl at my school and I wish she'd notice me"). For those pages, I feel the benefit to the 'pedia of having them gone quickly outweighs the extremely small chance that I'm getting it wrong. For others, even where it's not subjective, I could still have a major brain fade and another pair of eyes helps avoid that. --Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Things like A7 could benefit from this (in other words, those which are subjective... A7, G11, F7, T2, and C2 spring to mind), but many, many of the criteria shouldn't need multiple eyes... copyvios aren't subjective, lack of content altogether is not subjective, attack pages are slightly subjective but not very much, etc. In these instances I think that administrators can use their best judgement without additional input being required, although if a deletion is contested it can always be taken to WP:DRV. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 18:49, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

(@ Tony Fox): Two admins seems excessive even for the more subjective cases... one user of any type and one admin seems more appropriate to me, since non-admins often participate in CSD tagging. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 18:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, my error - one editor, one admin. Wrong framing there. Tony Fox (arf!) 18:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

This was already discussed and rejected (see this). Speedy deletion should be speedy. Ruslik_Zero 18:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

That was more than a year ago; it's worth taking another look at things like this, is it not? Tony Fox (arf!) 18:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

What for? What has changed since the last year? If a page is a spam, it is a spam. If a guy proposes sexual services for girls on his user page should I delete it on site? Or should I tag it and wait? Ruslik_Zero 19:10, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

This is why I say the blatant stuff is fine, but contentious stuff should be seen by more than one person. "Spam" can be subjective, for example; I've come across pages that were pretty bad, but because there was some ambiguity to them I've just tagged them and left them for the next admin to consider. As Dank mentions below, if I find a page that's been tagged, and the creator has others in a similar vein, I don't feel so bad about just flat deleting them, but if there's any ambiguity to me, I tag and let another admin look at it. That seems to be the right way to go, to me. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:41, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

If someone tagged one page, and in the course of investigating that page, I find related but untagged pages, then I'm the logical person to do the deletion, because I've already done the research ... and there's almost always some research involved (news archive searches, checking sources, checking the other contribs of the article creator, background research, etc). I basically agree with Luna Santin's take in that discussion: if you're noticing a problem, then the main problem is that articles are getting deleted (or not) when they shouldn't be, so let's tackle that problem. Since I'm on the admin side, I'm seeing what taggers are doing more than what other admins are doing. Bring the subject up at WT:CSD, in the form of "Was deleting this article a good decision?" If a pattern of bad speedy decisions emerges at WT:CSD, we'll notice. I do get your point that the appearance of impartiality is also important, and having two people involved rather than one constitutes an important safety net. I never go off on hunting expeditions on my own; I react to things I see in CAT:CSD. But some admins, like User:MBisanz, have done great work cleaning up things that rarely get tagged, such as articles in the File Talk namespace. - Dank (push to talk) 19:22, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

While I acknowledge that I fall on the deletionist end of the spectrum, I try to keep to the "two sets of eyes" principle for fairness' sake. I will kill the more shameless spams as well as the graffiti, attacks and mash notes; but otherwise, I like the idea that speedy should not become a tool for biting the noobs. Thus, you will sometimes see me tagging articles for some other admin to give a second opinion on, at the same time as I'm deleting already-tagged speedies where appropriate. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• The very prevalent use of CSD is what's changed since last year. I'm seeing a trend where CSD has become the default way of removing content, and I'm concerned by it.

  Personally I can sympathise with the use of one-pair-of-eyes speedy for attack pages, copyvios, certain BLP issues, or other matters where speedy deletion is clearly essential for defence of Wikipedia. If there's no potential harm to Wikipedia, then in my opinion the benefits of a second pair of eyes outweigh the potential damage-except for G7 and U1, where deletion is uncontroversial.

  Accordingly, I'd frame a draft policy like this:

Extended content

CSD Criterion Potential harm to Wikipedia One-pair-of-eyes speedy G1 No No G2 No No G3 Perhaps In cases of direct harm G4 Perhaps In cases of direct harm G5 Perhaps In cases of direct harm G6 No No G7 No Yes (only applies to admins deleting their own contributions) G8 No No G9 N/A N/A (not a matter for us) G10 Yes Yes G11 No No G12 Yes Yes A1 No No A2 No No A3 No No A5 No No A7 No No A9 No No R2 No No R3 No No F1 No No F2 No No F3 Perhaps In cases of direct harm F4 Perhaps In cases of direct harm F5 No No F6 No No F7 Yes Yes F8 No No F9 Yes Yes F10 No No F11 No No C1 No No C2 No No U1 No Yes (only applies to admins deleting content from their own userspace) U2 No No U3 Perhaps In cases of direct harm P1 Varies Varies P2 No No

I realise this would be inconvenient for some of you, and I hope you can see the logic and the potential benefits even if you disagree.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 20:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Before we change policy based on a perceived problem, I'd like to see at least one example of the problem; can we look at a page that was speedied incorrectly without a speedy tag, so that we're all talking about the same thing at the same time? - Dank (push to talk) 20:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't have the facility to check through deleted material and find one, Dank. Perhaps an obliging admin will look.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 20:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings on this... I do think that we should have two sets of eyes on most deletions, but I'm not sure if I would go so far as to encapulate that in a policy/guideline. I do know that when I was looking at CSD's a lot of the problems I saw were from single eye deleters.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 21:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The most common problems I see are "no context" and "hoax" tagging. Most of the no context situations are not in fact that way, and could be fixed by 5 minutes of work. FOr many hoaxes, they are not obvious and need reseach to confirm the hoax status. So only the most blatent of these should be speedied immediately. Also do not forget the notification to the authors! Other ways apart from tagging are requests on talk pages for "uncontroversial" deletions. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:41, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

The proposal doesn't mention what should happen when an article is tagged for one thing but the admin wants to speedy for a different reason; is anyone requesting that the admin change the tag, and wait for someone else to delete per the new reason? - Dank (push to talk) 03:10, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

There is no requirement for tagging in the first place. The CSD criteria are only written for the admin who does the deletion; they were specifically chosen as situations where it is common for admins to delete things without discussion. Unless there is some evidence that there is a large number of incorrect deletions from some criteria (not just a large number of correct deletions), there is no reason to change our practice in this area. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I've deleted a fair few G10s without the delay involved in seeking a second opinion and I'd prefer to keep things that way. If an admin was deleting stuff inappropriately surely they'd know from the feedback? The last two requests I've had to email someone's article to them were for a love letter (A7) and a joke page, and the second one included an apology for posting it on Wikipedia. ϢereSpielChequers 11:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, G10 would be an exception (one-pair-of-eyes deletion approved, because of direct harm to Wikipedia). Un-collapse the hatted bit above to see how I think it should work.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 16:46, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Exceptions or non-exceptions, I think that would be unneeded rules. And I am usually the last person to object to writing down rules. But the point is this: We elect admins because we trust their judgment. As such, we need to trust them to not speedy pages that might not be clear-cut but rather seek a second opinion. There are (luckily not that many) admins out there who have a bad grasp on speedy criteria and delete stuff incorrectly. But they do so no matter if there is one or two sets of eyes on the page (after all, some patrollers unfortunately still think it's some kind of challenge to tag as many new articles as possible). Yet codifying it into policy would hinder the good CSD admins, who know their stuff, from doing what is needed. Take a page like this for example: "The Stupid Corndogs are a band founded on June 25, 2009 by me and my brother". If I came across this page on NPP, do I really have to tag it A7? Yes, the page itself might not do harm to Wikipedia directly but if I tag it A7, it means that I will create work for another admin instead of doing the work myself. I'd say, trust admins to do the right thing and if we notice an admin deleting outside policy, then we can still tell them to tag the page rather than to delete it because they might not realize their mistakes. But as long as there is no problem with admins explicitly deleting without prior tagging (bad speedy admins is a problem, but a different one), there is no need to codify a solution. Regards SoWhy 18:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with SoWhy here... admins are elected because the community trusts them. Admins that the community doesn't trust shouldn't be admins. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 19:21, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I think I agree with most of the above. Thanks for bringing it up, S Marshall, and I'll be more aware and encourage other admins to be aware that it's best to have two sets of eyes whenever that's appropriate. But people have mentioned specific cases where one set of eyes is appropriate, and I run across other cases from time to time. Recently, a new user created articles for every model made by a manufacturer, taking the information right off the web. Only 4 of the articles had been tagged for db-spam when I got to them, but I deleted all of them ... was that wrong? I think it was efficient; it would have taken time for another admin to look up the same online information I did, and I don't want to tag the other articles and say "trust me, I've looked it up" ... that's asking another admin to take responsibility for my decisions. I often run across more-or-less the same db-spam-worthy material by a new editor on two or 3 pages, and I typically delete all those pages, even when only one has been tagged. If I remember right, MBisanz deleted around 6000 file-talk pages in the spring, mostly complete nonsense and vandalism ... I think Matt can recognize speedy-worthy pages, and I would have been pretty annoyed if I had had to go behind him and delete all of them. On the other hand, if an admin is going deletion-hunting for some class of pages that doesn't normally get tagged, it wouldn't bother me if we want to strongly encourage them to stop off here at WT:CSD first and give us a heads-up as to their plans. - Dank (push to talk) 20:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

I was really looking for some kind of concession here, folks. Why not take a look at DRV, and read the reactions we see from new editors whose articles are deleted under CSD?

Part of the problem is that CSD is extremely bitey. What I'd like to be able to show these people is that we delete material on sight where there's a good case that it's harmful, but if it's not actively harmful, it takes more than one pair of eyes. And yes, I do understand why someone jaded from new pages patrolling might object to me coming up with an obstacle to their getting rid of the 37th high-school rock band with references from myspace and youtube that shows up that evening, but, there is a purpose to it.

I find the argument that "we trust admins" very weak, because it's circular. Adminship is becoming a bigger and bigger deal, and RFA's turning from the sublime to the ridiculous, for exactly this reason. And the proportion of active editors to active admins is rising up the sharp end of a very nasty exponential curve because of it.

We need to accept that admins are human and capable of making mistakes, and we need to recognise that mistakes involving the delete button are highly problematic because for every one we see at DRV, how many potentially excellent new editors who only need a bit of encouragement and guidance, are quitting the site in disgust?

Tony Fox also makes some good points above, which could benefit from more thought imo.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 21:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Admins making mistakes at CSD are a big problem, no doubt about it. But those admins make their mistakes regardless of how many eyes have looked at a certain article, heck, some delete articles even after prods were contested or AFDs requested by experienced users. Point is, we need to educate admins who have a weak grasp at CSD and who make mistakes deleting pages. But I fail to see where there is any connection to how many people assessed an article. Regards SoWhy 22:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly not going to solve the CSD problem in one fell swoop, SoWhy.  :) But baby steps... on Wikipedia I have to fight the battles I stand some chance of winning.

Yes, two people can make a mistake. But at least if there are two, there's been some kind of checking process, so when the complaints come to DRV later, we can point to that and make a convincing argument that the deletion wasn't completely arbitrary.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 22:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• I missed the straw poll, but I find the suggestion a bit too bureaucratic for my taste. Obviously, admins should use common sense in deciding whether to tag an article or immediately delete. There are thousands of obvious situations every week where no one could reasonably suggest that an admin's decision to immediately delete was inappropriate or didn't benefit the project. At the same time, admins certainly should tag and not delete in the cases that are not obvious. Some mistakes are made in drawing the line, but I don't see this is a good reason to erase the line completely. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The straw poll relates to the discussion below. This is just a conversation, so you certainly haven't missed it. :)—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 00:12, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I think what's outlined in the table is a very good general guideline, at the very least. However, there is no doubt that uncontroversial deletions exist outside of G3-G5, G10 and G12, and preventing those from being deleted on sight could become too inhibiting. The policy already clearly states that speedy should only be used in the most obvious cases.

I could be way off here, but it seems like the ones that turn up most often in DRV are G4's and A7's. An interesting statistic would be how many of those were actually tagged, but I suspect most of them were. That is, they went through the proposed checking process. And the NPP will verify the deletion in their watchlist (if they bothered with it) and happily continue without ever knowing that the deletion is later unanimously overturned at DRV. Not to mention the ones that are never taken there.

Anyway, the fact remains that those deletions went against existing policy. If the deleting administrator decided to ignore (or believed they were acting in accordance with) the current CSD policy, why would we expect them to respect an even stricter policy? decltype (talk) 11:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• I think it generally wrong to delete single-handed except for routine situations and blatant vandalism. I admit I have broken my own rule on occasion, and I have sometimes been wrong when I do. I do not think it ever should be routine practice, certainly not for those deletions involving any judgement, such as G11 or A7. I have some disagreements with some of the categories, and I think we might want a provision for flexibility if its blatantly obvious. I am aware that "blatantly obvious" is a slippery slope, but there will still be some such cases. As for relying on unguided common sense, there are 1400 admins and anyone who will fully trust the common sense of all of them is not aware of what happens here. I'm even prepared to say I do not fully trust the common sense of any of them, including myself. As SMarshall says, this won;t solve CSD completely, but it is a start. Incidentally, I do not thing that all unambiguoius copyvios are actually unambiguous, and in general I would rather that somebody check mine here also--there are too many cases where its a copy from WP, or where the copyvio is not complete or there is a prior un-noticed version. A copyvio must be removed, but it is not a matter of the same urgency as vandalism. DGG (talk) 23:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Resolution

It's apparent to me that this idea has support, but it does not appear to have enough support to incorporate as a policy. Accordingly, I intend to write an essay about it, which I'll mention here when it's complete.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 09:46, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Quick straw poll - admins shouldn't delete their own U1 and G7s

The following discussion is archived as an idea that fell flat on its face. Please do not modify it.

I think we have an unusually clear rejection of this particular idea, so I think I'll withdraw the suggestion without further ado.

I asked about this at a recent London Meetup and was told there was an unwritten rule that admins don't delete their own pages either under U1 or G7, and I think it would be entirely appropriate to formalise that into policy, but before launching into a big formal policy discussion can we take a quick straw poll here in case there are arguments against this that I'm not aware of? ϢereSpielChequers 11:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree admins should tag their own stuff as {{U1}} and {{G7}} like anyone else

1. ϢereSpielChequers 11:31, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Disagree - admins should be able to delete their own stuff as {{U1}} or {{G7}}

1. Unnecessary complicated. We should trust admins enough to not delete controversial subpages as U1 but we should not restrict them maintaining their own userspace where there is no controversy. I have deleted multiple of my subpages that I created but did not need anymore. Why should I hate to burden another admin with it? If I think it might be controversial, I still can tag it U1 instead. Regards SoWhy 11:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
2. (ec) A solution in search of a problem. So I can create an article in my userspace, move it to mainspace, but not be allowed to delete the resulting redirect even though I could have moved the article and suppressed the redirect as I did so? Or I can create a category with a typo in its name, but I have to make someone else clear up after me? U1 deletions are uncontentious, surely. Do we have a problem with admins deleting their own work as G7 inappropriately (e.g. where others have made contributions of substance, or where the article has been in mainspace for long enough that it's clearly not a mistake)? Unlikely. Bencherlite^Talk 11:46, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
3. It's routine practice. I always delete my own stuff when it needs deleting. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
4. I agree that most admins maintain their own subpages including deleting them when no longer needed. Additionally, most admin accept uncontroversial requests for deletion without requiring the person to make an "official request". This approach introduces too much bureaucracy into a process that was meant to be a quick and easy. FloNight♥♥♥ 12:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
5. Agree with the above; if it becomes a real problem, it will be undeleted anyway...Lectonar (talk) 12:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
6. It's bloody wonkery to force admins to tag their own pages before they're deleted. –xeno^talk 12:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
7. This is getting absurd. We wouldn't need wp:iar if we would just stop making so many silly rules. -- RoySmith (talk) 12:38, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
8. I'm flabbergasted that anyone would suggest this. If I create a subpage to hold a list of articles to work on for a couple of days, why on earth should it take another admin to delete it? In fact, I'd support any user being able to delete their own user subpages. Has U1 or G7 been a widespread problem? I sure haven't seen it. And if one or two admins are using it inappropriately, deal with the admin instead of adding instruction creep.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 13:32, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
9. ---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 13:57, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
10. Why shouldn't they? I've never heard of anything like this. It seems WP:CREEPy, to say the least. –Drilnoth (T • C • L) 14:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Neutral/Don't care

The above is preserved as an archive of a straw poll that resulted in a clear consensus for no change. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Question: article talk page deletion

Can an article talk page (eg one that contains only vandalism/nonsense, and has no other history) be nominated for speedy deletion? And if so, how? 58.8.15.76 (talk) 16:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the general criteria apply to all namespaces. Algebraist 16:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll give it a try then. 58.8.15.76 (talk) 16:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

It can be, but the odds are, that unless it is a personal attack or copy vio, that the vandalism will simply be reverted.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 18:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• If it's the talk page of a legitimate article, and not an attack, I usually just replace the vandalism with the relevant WikiProject tags. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Morning Meeting

This was tagged as db-spam, and for many taggers, this article seems like the essence of spam ... except that I don't think it is, looking at the creator's contributions. I downgraded to {{prod-nn}} and added {{advert}}. My take on db-spam is that there's something about it that makes me pretty sure that it was created by someone with WP:COI or someone who sounds like they have WP:COI. {{Peacock}} language is much more common than articles worthy of db-spam, and deserves something more like a NERF clue-bat than a 10-pound hammer, IMO. - Dank (push to talk) 20:44, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Imho it's not clearly spam. After all, you can just remove the spammy bits and have a valid stub left. Non-notable probably but not unambiguous spam. Regards SoWhy 20:50, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

G4 - rewording proposal

Although I thought G4 was worded pretty clearly, at Talk:Wikinfo an editor is insisting the only way G4 applies is if the new content is a literal copy - no changes whatsoever - of the deleted version. This is happening because he has looked up the dictionary definition of "copy". The way G4 has been applied for years is that the new version has to address reasons for deletion (assuming there was a deletion debate that deleted the page). This is really the only sensible way for G4 to work, otherwise people could just reword a bit so it's not literally a copy, then policy would demand a new XFD every time until someone just applied WP:IAR to the situation.

At any rate, I think this can all be fixed by changing the word "copy" to "recreation" - I suspect the word copy being there is just a legacy of a much older, more rigid CSD. So where it currently says:

I would like it to say:

If the interpretation is that an article has to literally be a letter-for-letter copy of the deleted one to qualify for G4, we might as well just remove the "and that any changes in the recreated page do not address the reasons for which the material was deleted" wording, as that's impossible if the article is a carbon copy.

I am not planning on advertising this proposal because I believe it's a minor wording change that reflects current practice anyway. --Chiliad22 (talk) 21:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary and the rewording would make it virtually impossible to rewrite/recreate new articles. The key the person you are talking to is missing is that the current wording doesn't say "exact copy" but rather "provided the copy is substantially identical to the deleted version and that any changes in the recreated page do not address the reasons for which the material was deleted." The only person who would read that to mean "identical copy" is a person who is too caught up on being legalistic.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 21:33, 25 June 2009 (UTC) Actually, I don't really care, I'm leaning towards against it, but I could be talked out of that position. I still think that anybody who needs the clarification is too legalistic.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 21:34, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't see how that would make it virtually impossible to create new articles. It's just clarifying that G4 doesn't mean "identical copy", and you agree that it doesn't mean that. --Chiliad22 (talk) 21:35, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The rest of the description clearly makes it so... it talks about changes and substantially identical. The concern I have is that a stub on a topic of limited notability, could be deleted via discussion. Part of the reason people voted to delete was because the article was poorly written and not encyclopedic. Another person rewrites a new article, which is substantially different, but might be deemed a recreation because in their opinion it didn't adequately address the concerns of the AFD. By leaving it as copy, you are clearly indicating that you are talking about articles that are essentially the same.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 21:41, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, if one of the reasons was the article was deleted was that it was poorly written, A) it was a poorly argued AFD and B) if a new version addresses that problem, it wouldn't be deleted under G4 anyway, whether the page says "copy" or "recreation", since it addresses the problem that lead to deletion. I think either wording allows people to recreate articles if they address the reason for deletion, but removing the word "copy" solves the problem of people being overly legalistic. --Chiliad22 (talk) 21:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• Meh One user trying to poke a hole in it is probably not enough of a reason to bother changing it, but I don't think it's a big deal either way. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:54, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the 30k of discussion I've been forced to generate trying to explain this to that user is the reason I came here in frustration. Ah well, thanks for confirming I'm not just making things up about CSD policy. --Chiliad22 (talk) 21:59, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty adamantly against any further relaxation of CSD policy, and I'm afraid I'm strongly opposed to this.—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 22:02, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not relaxing it, though, it's rewording for clarification. Aside from one person I don't think anyone really thinks G4 only applies to carbon copies. --Chiliad22 (talk) 22:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I think it should only apply to carbon copies, and I think that's what the people who wrote it intended.

So make that two people, if you like.  :)—S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 22:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Then why is the wording about "substantially identical" or addressing reasons for deletion even in there? It has no place if the wording is only talking about carbon copies. --Chiliad22 (talk) 22:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

No, this clause was never intended to refer only to carbon copies. If it did, a user could make a trivial change in punctuation or wording and arbitrarily restore deleted content. In the past when people tried to argue for that legalistic interpretation, others invoked WP:IAR and common sense to shout down the abuser. The wording was clarified in 2005 to "substantially identical" to try to more clearly say that the changes must be more than merely cosmetic - the author must address the underlying problem that cause the page to be deleted in the first place.
That said, I don't think "re-creation" is any more clear than "copy". Some people are going to try to wikilawyer the policy no matter what. Rossami (talk) 23:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

• I just took a look at the conversation that set all this off, and I don't think that particular user would be convinced by anything any of us said or did. My advice would be to ignore them. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, if you look at User talk:Tone, his next action would almost certainly be to say "Well if you're ignoring me that means you don't object to me recreating the article, right?". --Chiliad22 (talk) 22:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Per Webster's New World, "copy" means "copy" (and btw, also per WNW and the 2009 AP Stylebook, just out this week, it's "re-create" not "recreate"). We don't mean "copy" so we shouldn't say that. "re-creation" is fine IMO. - Dank (push to talk) 22:18, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Beeblebrox ignoring someone (with a redirect to a page on vandalism) is not the way that consensus is built on Wikipeida. --PBS (talk) 10:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The reason I added the text to the article Wikinfo is because it is a redirect and when I added the text I had no idea that it had been deleted. It was only when I went to add a comment to the talk page that I realised that the page had been deleted. I looked through six AfD's and as far as I can tell, there has never been a consensus to delete the page. The reason given in The sixth AFD was "Fails WP:WEB". An article on this topic is of direct benefit to out readers because somewhere between 100 and 200 articles have to attribute text to Wikinfo and as far as I can tell the issue was never raised during the Sixth AfD. I put it to the reader of this page that it is not unreasonable for a reader who sees an Wikipedia article attributing text to Wikinfo, to expect Wikipedia to have an entry on such an entity from which it has copied text! And as such an entry written under the Wikipedia policies of NPOV, it should be trustworthy. There are reliable sources around which can support the text I included as a stub (which cover V and OR). I did not include them with the text, which was a cut an past job from History of wikis#Development of wiki websites to the end of 2003, and I assumed as a stub there would be time to add them if anyone wanted to include a {{fact}} template.

The G4 reason for the speedy deletion is to clean up the recreation of an article by the same editor or editors, just as the Wikipedia:Protection policy#Creation protection "can also prevent the creation of a page through the protection dialog. This is useful for articles that have been deleted but repeatedly recreated by an editor." In a case like this, were a new editor alters a redirect into an article and is not copying the old text, it is for an editor who objects not to to use the speedy deletion process but to go through the usual deletion process.

This is more than an argument over angels on a pinhead, because of the assumption of no change without a consensus. Suppose only the creator and the objector are involved in a dispute over the creation of a page, does a disinterested administrator close the page in favour of the current consensus? In which case depending on whether the process is an AfD or a CSD G4 will determine what the current consensus is.

The wording of G4 is quite adequate if it is meant to protect Wikipedia from the intent to circumvent a deletion (anyone who is familiar with speedy deletes will be familiar with the creation of articles by the same editors with either the same name or a slightly different one and the current wording covers those whack a rat situations). As it is currently worded it also stops an editor trying to use it to gain a procedural advantage as I described in the preceding paragraph, so I recommend that the wording it is not changed. --PBS (talk) 10:56, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

A7

The criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source. If the claim's credibility is unclear, you can improve the article yourself, propose deletion, or list the article at articles for deletion.

I don't know if I'm understanding this right. So if someone makes creates an article about "John Doe", and makes the claim "John Doe ran to to the moon and back five times", you can't speedy it under A7? You have to prod it or afd it? Or is it just borderline claims that you can't speedy, that are plausible. The text doesn't seem to say specifically what to do with non credible claims. Fingerz^On'Roids 11:49, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Not so long ago, I informally proposed to change the wording to something like "The criterion applies only to articles that make no credible claim of significance or importance" to resolve this ambiguity, but it didn't get anywhere. At least your post here confirms that the current wording could be made clearer. decltype (talk) 12:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Quote: "The old wording didn't explicitly state whether A7 could be applied to articles with a clearly non-credible claim. The new wording makes it clear that A7 can in fact be applied to such articles." decltype (talk) 12:04, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it makes it clear that it can be applied, because the text only says that credible claims makes a7 not applicable, not vice versa, that non credible claims shouldn't stop an article from fitting under a7. I'm going to be bold and add a sentence in to that effect, feel free to revert.Fingerz^On'Roids 12:08, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

The idea is that the word only automatically excludes everything else. "The criterion applies only to articles that make no credible claim". But if you can do better, I will certainly not revert, because I support such a change. Pretty sure someone else will, though. decltype (talk) 12:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

The change looks good to me, unless there's subtle grammatical issues I'm unable to spot. decltype (talk) 12:19, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, hopefully other users will agree. Sorry but, I don't see the sentence that you quoted in there. I don't know if my brain's a little tired or something and skipping over it, but I can't seem to find it. Fingerz^On'Roids 12:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Nah, that's because it was reverted :) decltype (talk) 12:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I can't think of anything wrong with your quoted sentence. What was the rationale for reverting it?Fingerz^On'Roids 12:25, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Tweaking the "credible claims" part of the clause is tricky. We need our editors to be very careful when applying this criterion because apparently non-credible claims have many of the same problems that apparent hoaxes have. The claim may seem incredible to you or me but be true (though obscure) or it could be a poorly written reference to a fictional character which, if rewritten to avoid the in-universe tone, would be acceptable. Rossami (talk) 12:29, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'd think that the hangon tag could be useful in that situation, and if the tagger discussed it with the article creator, the confusion about the seemingly non credible claim could be sorted out, seeing as admins normally let a7's with hangon tags stick around for a while.Fingerz^On'Roids 12:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

The {{CSD5}} tag is also useful in that situation. It gives an uninvolved editor a few minutes to see if the claim can be made more plausible through references or a rewrite. (Or it should, but a few admins completely ignore the tag. Grrr....) --Fabrictramp | talk to me 15:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Two many negatives and conditionals in the qualifying language. It makes sense but it's very hard to parse what is meant. Why not make it a positive statements with the credibility aspect right up front: "...or web content that does not credibly indicate why its subject is important or significant" (or possibly "plausibly"). I think this gets rid of the need for both qualifying later sentences, which are very confusing as written.--162.83.162.35 (talk) 13:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

User:Anuarhabibe/Ascii fish

I hope Calton will weigh in on this one. He tagged it as db-spam and I agreed, but I think some of you will probably disagree and I'd like to hear the arguments, please. This was the only contribution by this editor, and it read: "Ascii Fish, The Netherlands is an web development company which operates in The Netherlands, The Antilles and Aruba. Ascii Fish (or AsciiFish) is a small business company founded in 2009. The company's core business areas are web services, multimedia & graphic designs and Web project consulting." Apparently they're right about the size of the business; there wasn't even a Google hit on "ascii fish" "netherlands", and no news archive hits on "ascii fish" or "asciifish". The argument that this wasn't db-spam, I think, is that the language wasn't so promotional that it could have only come from one of the principals, or from someone using language that one of the principals would use. But it seems to me that's a technical argument; a better question to ask is: was it very likely to be one of the principles, someone who was only here to promote their stuff and not make any useful contributions to Wikipedia? I think that seems very likely: a company so small that no one seems to have heard of it, a business that's about "web development" (which greatly increases the odds that they're here to promote their stuff, the same as with articles from new contributers about a new public relations, advertising, or herbal viagra business), and no other contributions. The odds just seem tiny that this was created by someone who doesn't profit from this business, or that reasoning with them has any likelihood of turning them into a useful contributor. I would have used A7 if this had been in articlespace, but it wasn't. - Dank (push to talk) 17:21, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Another question that flows from your post, is whether we honor the namespace issue when, as you assert, the essence of the A7 criterion was a better fit as a deletion basis. This was a proposed article that was sitting unchanged on a subpage for a week before the tagging. I don't mean to throw a question back at you but I'm curious as to your feelings on why, if A7 would have worked better than G11 if it was in the main space, you think we shouldn't use the spirit of the policy to overrule that implicit namespace conflict.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 17:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, a lot of our warning messages tell new users to work on stuff in userspace until it's ready ... I think it would be confusing to then delete it from userspace on the grounds that it's not ready yet. But maybe the logic of A7 could or should be applied to namespaces other than userspace, I haven't thought about that. - Dank (push to talk) 20:37, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I love that the company's website is "coming soon" -- deliciously ironic. Yes, the editor is one of the principals (or the only principal)[1]. However, I'm conflicted about db-spam for these types of user pages. Unless there's a reason not to AGF, it might be kinder to blank the page (and watchlist it) and leave the editor a note about how to rewrite their userpage to avoid being promotional. At the same time, I'm fully aware that a huge number of editors who write such a userpage are only here to promote, and lose interest when it becomes clear they can't. And after dealing with the uber-marketers for several hours, "nuke 'em all" does have a certain attraction.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 20:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is dominant enough that we could succeed with a wide range of different philosophies (I don't mean that we can sit on our asses, just that leaning one way or another in our wiki-philosophy is not likely to mean the end of the wiki.) We're the top site for information in the world, unless the information you're looking for is lolcat videos or search results. If Wikipedians wanted to be endlessly loving and supportive of all comers, I would do that, and if they wanted to apply strict entrance requirements for new users, I'd support that too (I don't think it would work, but questions like these are not my call). But I think the wikiprojects have made it clear that they want something between those extremes ... they don't want us to be mean, but they do want us to do something to discourage certain new articles and certain new editors. The best I can tell, it's my obligation to delete pages created by new and apparently single-purpose account editors that I think have a 90% or better chance of reflecting WP:COI, and in most (but not all) cases, to do it without being solicitous of the feelings of the page creators, because encouraging them might give them the idea that they can get what they want if they're just persistent enough, and that will waste the time and harm the morale of the wikiprojects and helper-communities that have to deal with these guys. - Dank (push to talk) 20:26, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I have a pretty short fuse when the spammers decide to just be persistent instead of playing by the rules. As the saying goes, "I was born at night, but not last night." :) --Fabrictramp | talk to me 21:58, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

When it comes to tagging probable spam in user subpages, I tend to grant a little more slack, but when it's fairly blatant -- as I thought this was -- I've got few qualms. Note also that db-spam covers CSD G11 -- meaning that it's "General", not just article space.

Stuff that gets my attention:

• User:Endeavor global/Endeavor (nonprofit) - subpage that matches the name of the account, and both are company names. Obvious.
• User:Dcheagle/OECW - Use of 1st-person plural ("we"), non-notable nature and advertising copy. Seemingly obvious, but user has some other unrelated edits.
• User:Solomonchronicles1/The Solomon Chronicles: Sangre del Unico - subpage that matches the name of the account, and describes a product. Fairly strong evidence of spamming.
• User:Ashleyjared2 - User name and content don't match, and text, while spammy, seems to evidence a good-faith attempt to create an article -- an article that probably wouldn't survive AFD, but that's irrelevant here. Watch and wait.
• User:Artbodies - vanity bio attached to what appears to be a Googlebombing user name. Leaning towards tagging as spam, but not certain yet.
• User:Cinagua/Technology Sales Leads - from an editor with a history of creating various subpages and deleted articles on start-ups. Suspicious, but not yet actionable.

That's my take on it. --Calton | Talk 02:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed on the first 3, and I'll wait on the others. Thanks. - Dank (push to talk) 02:25, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Based on the evidence presented here, deletion was probably appropriate. I don't know if it really should have been a G11 speedy-deletion because the tone was not overly promotional in my opinion but it would have been extremely unlikely to survive an AfD discussion if the article had been moved into the articlespace in that condition. (The lack of active editing would have been evidence against it in an MfD discussion.)
As a technical matter, however, deletion using the A7 criterion would have been definitely inappropriate. A7 is limited to Article-space pages and does not apply to user-space pages. I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea that we might want to extend A7 past the articlespace. As Dank said above, userspace is where we tell people to work on drafts that aren't ready for prime time. We ought not to confuse that message.
The problem of spam in the userspace is better handled through the technical solution of breaking the incentive to create it by disabling search engine indexing of the userspace. Rossami (talk) 15:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense in foreign languages

Earlier today, an administrator declined two consecutive {{db-nonsense}} tags on the grounds that the pages were in a foreign language, therefore exempt from G1. Now I agree with both of that administrator's assessments, but it reminded me of a case, some time ago, where I saw a listing at WP:PNT for a page in French, and, being a native French speaker, I looked at the page and deemed it to be a word salad that was worthy of the speediest G1 tagging. (The words were indeed French, but the sentence was nonsensical.) An administrator declined my tagging of that page, and only after I explained the situation on his talk page did he finally delete the page.

What I want to do here is not exactly a change of policy, new CSD criterion, or anything like that, but I want to implement a way of notifying a CSD-reviewing administrator that a certain foreign-language page has been deemed nonsensical even in its language, either through a template designed for that purpose, a parameter to the {{db-nonsense}} tag, an accompanying tag, or any other solution one might propose.

Any ideas? -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 15:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, this is something I have encountered a few times as well. How about simply using something like: {{db|it's French, but it's still nonsense (G1)}}, or G2 if G1 is not applicable, etc. decltype (talk) 15:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

If you have used, e.g., a {{notenglish|French}} template, you could add {{db-g1}} and just below it {{comment|click "Google translation" in the notenglish template to get an idea.}} The Google translation is usually good enough for that purpose. I have used that technique successfully with obvious NN bios and attack pages. JohnCD (talk) 15:16, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Good point. However, this works better for A7 and G10 as you mention, because google will have a hard time translating nonsense (and sometimes produces near-nonsense on its own). decltype (talk) 15:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Why not just note it on the talk page? Most admins will check the talk page of a page before deciding on a speedy, in case there is something relevant on it and many taggers use it for that purpose already. I see no need for any changes at all. Regards SoWhy 15:25, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe a short note, in the description of the A2 criterion, saying what to do when one comes across a foreign-language article that is not an A2 but unquestionably meets another speedy criterion in a way obvious only to one who has some knowledge of the language... -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 16:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec)When someone puts a speedy tag on a foreign language page that I'm looking at for deletion (well, a language I can't muddle through myself), I'll either do a google/babelfish translation to verify or, if it's an experienced non-problematic editor who seems to have some facility with the language I'll ask for a good faith summary from them. If I'm doing the tagging, I add a comment after the speedy tag with a note to see my translation on the talk page.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 15:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

When the issue comes up, I ask taggers politely to add {{notenglish|[language]}} (provided the Google translation that comes with that template is useful) whenever they're requesting speedy deletion. It's going to cause trouble if different people are seeing different things when they're making a speedy call. And btw, I haven't used db-nonsense in a long time because of the nonsense/gibberish language, and I'm not missing it at all. - Dank (push to talk) 15:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I'm the administrator referred to above, despite the fact that I'm not actually an administrator. Most of the ideas I had have been given by others, but I do have one idea as to how this could be fixed. {{db-nonsense}} currently reads This does not include poor writing, vandalism, material not in English, badly translated material, hoaxes, etc. This could be changed to This does not include poor writing, vandalism, coherent material not in English, badly translated material, hoaxes, etc., which would solve the problem of foreign-language nonsense being seemingly exempt. — Hysteria18 ^{(Talk • Contributions)} 19:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Question

Is there a speedy deletion criterion for uploading an inappropriate image? Bababababababababybel62 (talk) 19:39, 30 June 2009 (UTC)