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== June 2010 ==
== June 2010 ==
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Madonna (entertainer)/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Symphony No. 8 (Mahler)/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Symphony No. 8 (Mahler)/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Horses in World War I/archive2}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Horses in World War I/archive2}}

Revision as of 10:26, 8 June 2010

June 2010

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 10:26, 8 June 2010 [1].

Madonna (entertainer)

Nominator(s): --Legolas (talk2me) 10:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WP:FFA, has not been on main page

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it deserves to have the bronze star back. Prior to this the article was promoted to Featured article when WP:FA itself was not worthy of anything. From that time, it was demoted and was then promoted as a GA. It has gone through numerous Peer reviews (4) and the article has been modelled keeping in mind WP:BIOGRAPHY, referring to present FAs like Michael Jackson and Janet Jackson. Hence, by the consensus of my fellow editors, I would like to promote this article to FA. --Legolas (talk2me) 10:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Quick comment While copy-editing (which I hope to finish within a week from now) I found a bit of recentism. While in for the early part of her, you use just a year to indicate release date ("Madonna's third album, True Blue (1986)"), for later years you go the whole nine yards even for minor releases ("She released her third live album, Sticky & Sweet Tour, on March 30, 2010"). I suggest you go through the text once more, and review every date you used for level of detail you think is best.
  • I think her infobox genre should only be "Pop, dance"; dance-pop is a pop subgenre and hence redundant to it. She's not an electronic musician, but merely used electronics on her songs (the article it links to, EDM, is a dance subgenre). Rock is hardly a major style for her; being the focus of just one album or so.
  • I suggest changing the infobox pic; she hardly looks her best in the current one.—indopug (talk) 16:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you for your comments Indopug, however for your point no. 3, I'm afraid this is the recent most best picture that we have for her. Others like those from the 2009 MTV Video Music Awards are poor in quality. You can check Commons:Madonna and may be point out if there are any better images than the one present. I will look to the other points. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:42, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have taken care of the other concerns. Places like for eg — the date on which the Malawi adoption was finalized, or the divorce, or her R&R Hall of Fame induction — there the full dates have been kept, elsewhere its ambiguous like the rest of the article. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:18, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from TbhotchTalk C. 16:06, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Comment

"Lead"

  • Madonna Louise Ciccone --> "Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone"

"1982–85: Madonna, Like a Virgin and marriage to Sean Penn"

  • Rock and Roll Hall of Fame listed the album as one of the Definitive 200 Albums of All Time.[29] --> Definitive 200 Albums of

All Time should be in quotation marks. "1986–91: True Blue, Like a Prayer and the Blond Ambition Tour"

  • Madonna starred in the critically panned film Shanghai Surprise, and made her theatrical debut in a production of David Rabe's Goose and Tom-Tom, both co-starring Penn.[41] In 1987, Madonna starred in Who's That Girl, --> "Madonna starred" twice
  • In 1990, Madonna starred as "Breathless" Mahoney in the film adaptation of the comic book series Dick Tracy. It starred Warren Beatty --> Synonyms needed
  • Madonna decided to leave the Jennifer Lynch film Boxing Helena --> Did you mean "Jennifer Lynch's film"?

"1992–96: Maverick, Sex, Erotica, Bedtime Stories and Evita"

"1997–2002: Ray of Light, Music and Drowned World Tour"

  • Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. --> 500 Greatest Allbums of All Time should be in quotation marks.
  • Slant Magazine described the album as... --> Slant Magazine described the album as...
  • The latter's music video depicted --> of which song, "Music"?

"2003–06: American Life, Confessions on a Dance Floor and adoption case"

  • a photoshoot in W Magazine --> a photoshoot in W Magazine
  • called American Life who's theme --> Did you mean "called American Life which theme"?
  • American Life became the lowest selling album of her career --> As far as I know Hard Candy (Madonna album) has sold over 3.8 million copies.
    • Hard Candy is the recent most album and has sold 3.8 million in European+Oceanian markets alone, couple that with 725K in US and 300K in Canada, its well over 4 million. Hence AL is the lowest selling album of her career. --Legolas (talk2me) 08:19, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The album won a Grammy Award for "Best Electronic/Dance Album". --> Consistency needed. In "1997–2002: Ray of Light, Music and Drowned World Tour" section you wrote "It reached number nineteen on the Hot 100 and won a Grammy Award for Best Song Written for a Motion Picture, Television or Other Visual Media.[30] (Grammy Award for Best Song Written for a Motion Picture, Television or Other Visual Media without quotation mark).
  • The use of religious symbols, such as the crucifix and Crown of Thorns, in the performance of "Live to Tell", caused the Russian Orthodox Church --> I think that the image File:Madonna-cross.jpg can be used.
  • surviving malaria and tuberculosis --> Both, malaria and tuberculosis could be wikilinked.

"Legacy"

Those are my comment, I didn't checked the sources, but I don't think there are prolems with them. TbhotchTalk C. 06:37, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved concerns from — ξxplicit
Comments from — ξxplicit

Note, I ran into an edit conflict with the above comments, so hopefully I don't repeat too many concerns.

Sources comments

  • In the references list, "Press release" should be written thus, not as "Release, Press" as though it was a person (refs 1 and 3) Other strange inversions include "Press, Associated", "Reporter, Staff", and lots of "Reporter, BBC"
  • For well-known newspapers and journals it is not necessary to add the name of the publisher (e.g. "The New York Times Company" etc.) The convention is only to include publisher details for relatively obscure publications.
    • I would suggest you remove unnecessary publisher details from many more of the newspapers and journals - Time, The Daily Telegraph, Chicago Sun-Times, Rolling Stone, Daily Mail, The Times. The Japan Times, etc. Maybe others. Nor is it necessary to give the "publisher" of broadcasting services such as CNN. Brianboulton (talk) 10:07, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look OK, no further issues. Brianboulton (talk) 23:39, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Brian for your comments, I have corrected them. Take a look please? --Legolas (talk2me) 05:25, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed publisher info for many of them, though the major ventures like Nielsen and Jann Wenner are kept as they demand mention if they are cited. (It's present in their website). --Legolas (talk2me) 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All concerns addressed. Brianboulton (talk) 08:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I suggest you to add more info about her highly publicized relationship with Sean Penn, about his abuse and violent habit which caused their divorce. Also, there is no information about her controversy during American Life era regarding the war/political theme of her work. I think it is the same important as her controversy with religious group. Baratayuda (talk) 04:38, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I added the line They filed under irreconciable differences, with Madonna's lawyer citing Penn's drinking problems and abusive nature as the primary case for the divorce paper filing.. Will that do? Also, the American Life video controversy has been addressed. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

  • "Madonna embarked on her first concert tour in North America, titled The Virgin Tour, with the Beastie Boys as opening acts." - Is it possible to state around this part what months the tour began and ended?
  • "By fall 1987, she embarked on the Who's That Girl World Tour." - Can you change 'by' to 'in', and change 'fall' (which varies depending on country) to the month the tour began?
  • "It was complimented for Madonna's innovative dresses"? - Could you change this to something like "It finished in September 1987 and was complimented for Madonna's innovative dresses"?
  • "Following year, Madonna was signed to play a violin teacher in the film Music of the Heart but left the project.." - Missing a 'the' at the start of the sentence?
  • "The song reached number eight on the Billboard Hot 100 and was nominated both for a Golden Globe Award for Best Original Song and a Golden Raspberry for Worst Song." - Could you link Golden Raspberry?
  • "In fall 2003, Madonna provided guest vocals on Spears' single "Me Against the Music"." - Another 'fall' that should be changed.
  • There are some $ with spaces between the amount, and others without the space. Could you pick one style and make them all consistent?
  • "Fall 2009, Madonna released Celebration, her third greatest hits album, and the closing release with Warner." - Another 'fall', and should there be an 'in' at the start of the sentence?
  • "Same year, she released her third live album, Sticky & Sweet Tour. It was her first release under Live Nation, but was distributed by Warner Bros." - Should there be a 'that' or an 'in the' at the start of this sentence?
  • "Madonna announced plans of directing her second film titled W.E., co-written it with Alek Keshishian, a biopic about the affair between King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson." - Could you reword to something like "Madonna announced plans of directing her second film titled W.E., a biopic about the affair between King Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson. It was co-written by her and Alek Keshishian."?
  • "She later clarified that the film is about a woman's journey and that the duchess as her spiritual guide, but was not going to be about the duchess' life." - Could you reword this? I'm not too sure what is trying to be said.

Everything else looks good. I look forward to supporting when these comments are addressed. Pyrrhus16 13:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I addressed your concerns Pyrrhus16. Thank you for the comments. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Everything looks good now and I have supported the article. Good luck. Pyrrhus16 11:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Her recognition was augmented by the film.. - eeww, bit cumbersome-sounding...."Her profile was boosted/raised"? "The film further put her in the spotlight" something.
boosted felt a little to papery word to me as was profile, hence I changed it to Her recognition was further raised by the film Desperately Seeking Susan. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
She sang and played drums and guitar for the group, but soon left to form the band Emmy in 1980, with drummer and former boyfriend Stephen Bray. - this gives the impression that she had already separated from Bray when they formed the band. Is that right?
Yes, however to be on the safe side broke the sentence so that it is easier to understand. "She sang and played drums and guitar for the group. But in 1980 she left Breakfast Club and formed the band Emmy, with drummer and her former boyfriend Stephen Bray." --Legolas (talk2me) 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
with artist Jean-Michel Basquiat and lived with him for a time in his loft - any idea how long? "for a time" can mean alot of things to alot of different people...
Added. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Slowly, Madonna's look and manner of dress, her performances and music videos, became influential among young girls and women. - ungainly. I know what you mean and I am trying to think an alternative. "Madonna's look and manner of dress, her performances and music videos, began to influence among young girls and women." or ""Madonna's look and manner of dress, her performances and music videos, began making an impact on fashion." Actually, the more I look at it and the next sentence, the more I feel it is redundant. Remove the sentence and read. I feel the second sentence is sufficient in getting the point across.
If I had removed teh first sentence, the paragaph would have had a very abrupt beginning. Hence, kept the first sentence but tweaked it to read "Slowly, Madonna's look and manner of dressing, her performances and music videos, started influencing young girls and women." --Legolas (talk2me) 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
True that. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:21, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

::The book caused strong reaction from the media and the general public, - umm, yeah. But sounds so general...can it be clarified?

more later. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:49, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, I am reduced to minor nitpicks above. The second half is written better than the first half. I can see where Suomi Finland 2009 is coming from and agree that a less listy and more global structure is better, but concede that at the end of the day an most artist is famous for the material that they produce. I think if any less notable material from the diary-like top half it would make for a better article flow-wise but then would have issues with comprehensiveness if something too notable were left out. I'll have another look at the top half but we're nearly over the line I think. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:28, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See below :) --Legolas (talk2me) 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, in part; Oppose, in part. This is an entertaining article. However, it reads much like a diary. When trying to find non-musical biographical information, it is exceedingly painful and difficult to do. I would suggest putting all the musical and acting career information together in a separate section, which can be sub-divided into time periods. Otherwise, the article is difficult to read. Although it is important to meet technical requirements, such as citation format, there is much more to a quality article than meeting format requirements. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 21:11, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your concerns Suomi Finland 2009, but I draw your attention to Talk:Madonna (entertainer), where Pyrrhus16 addressed your concern that it is better to have a single flow of the biography, rather than have section wise analysis. A consensus at Talk:Madonna (entertainer) was that the personal life sections and acting careers should be merged in to the main biography as "Personal Life" sections tend to be hot bed for gossips and fancruft. We do not need an exhaustive who's who list of whom the artist dated. Maybe people like Bray, Benitez and Beatty is notable as they come under her work and is related, but separate sections always have this concern of being a gossip bed. Also, the article was modelled on already existent FAs like Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, Kylie Minogue who follow this rule too. I hope I clarified your doubts enough. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also understand the talk page comments where the diary style is defended. Wikipedia consensus does allow for this kind of writing. Wikipedia consensus and FA status are different things. I do not disagree with someone stating that the consensus is that or this version. What my concerns are is that the article is simply not well written. It is just a massive diary. There are many ways to fix this. Separating her music/film career is possible. The remaining could be her humanitarian and personal life. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 17:27, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Would you state what you want to do exactly? Because separate personal life and and film career is a big no-no as per the previous consensus. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:22, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not change the articles style; a lot easier to read when it's all in one and not in different sub-sections. Aaroncrick TALK 10:03, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not the fighting type so I have just made the suggestions for improvement. My feeling is if there was a Pulitzer Prize journalist writing this article, they would not write a massive diary style article. WP FA's are supposed to be the best. We can do it! Possibly in 2 days. I am willing to help but will not start the process because people might misunderstand and think that I am a troublemaker. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 17:32, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Binksternet

I like seeing that bit about the "Madonna mic". Thanks for putting that in!

I do not yet support this article as FA class. Binksternet (talk) 23:37, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I addressed your comments. --Legolas (talk2me) 04:06, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still seeing some prose problems, one that others are bringing up. I will support when the prose becomes "engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard", per FA criteria. Binksternet (talk) 21:30, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is it that you are exactly referring to? Because I'm trying my best to satisfy the "brilliant" criteria. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:39, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When I get a chance, I will examine the article very closely for specific points. Binksternet (talk) 20:54, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looking good: I now support the article as FA. Binksternet (talk) 11:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • That first paragraph has six sentences that do not very flow very well at all. You move from her single to the recording of Madonna to Basquiat and then back to the album. I hope you can rip it up and rewrite the paragraph...
  • US and U.S.—use either, but not both.
  • "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame listed the album as one of the "Definitive 200 Albums of All Time"" - that was much later right?? In that case give the year.
  • "she released a remix album of past hits, entitled You Can Dance.[44] Madonna and Penn filed for divorce in December 1987" - the effect of abruptly going from the sentence about the remix album to one about her divorce is quite jarring. Could you split that second sentence off into a separate para, and add some more details about her relationship with Penn to fill that para out?
    • As much as I want to, but there is not enough info to fill out an entire para of similar body. Madonna's relationship with Penn was tabloid fodder, without most of the news I found as speculations as to Penn was doing "this and that" and MAdonna was "doing this and that". Basically, it all comes down to Madonna, who was non-compromising for her career, not tolerating Penn's abusive and drinking problems, and Penn continuing to disassociate himself from the marriage, living life as a batchelor (with all the girls and strippers etc). Only concrete matter I found was in the biography by Taraborrelli, who said that these problems were what led to the divorce, followed by some conversation. Hence I am not sure whether that material and tabloid fodder will be appropriate in Wikipedia. What do you say? --Legolas (talk2me) 05:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Isn't there a more appropriate link for Vatican than 'Holy See'?
  • "released the album I'm Breathless" - it's a soundtrack album right? Better classify it as such.
  • "The Pope encouraged the crowd" - heh, thought for a second that the Pope was on stage with her, encouraging the crowd :P
  • The last paragraph of the "1986–91" section - From "In December 1990, Madonna decided" onwards, the sentences aren't really related to each other at all. Especially the one about her quitting that film. Why did she quit? Seems like interesting info that should be there.—indopug (talk) 19:42, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • See my reply above for the film .05:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Quick comments - prose is in need of further polishing, and there are some organization and neutrality issues. A few examples:

  • Per WP:LEAD, the lead should summarize the article: it fizzles out at the end of the third paragraph with "The next year, she began her Sticky & Sweet Tour which went on to become the highest-grossing tour ever for a solo artist." This is followed by the usual final-paragraph sales and achievements summary, so we are left with no sense of her present status and creative focus, as detailed in the 2007–present section.
    • I would argue that major points are always summarised in the lead. Whatever Madonna did after 2008 barely reflects a major point and there is nothing concrete to represent in it. Hence the bio stops at the 09-09 Sticky & Sweet Tour. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:39, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*" After performing as a member of the pop musical groups ..." - overlinking, and "pop groups" is the usual term.

*"Gradually, Madonna's look and manner of dressing, her performances and music videos, started influencing young girls and women." - clunky. Dubiously punctuated, and possibly another "her" is needed.

*"Expanding on the use of religious imagery with Like a Prayer (1989)" - no mention has yet been made of religious imagery.

*"The same year, she expanded the use of sexually explicit material in her work" - no mention has yet been made of sexually explicit material.

*"Madonna had posed for the photographs as she needed money at the time, and was paid as little as $25 a session. But since she had signed the appropriate release forms, she could not take legal action to block them." - second sentence gives an unnecessary explanation, introducing bias by hinting at an unsupported implication that she was taken advantage of; first sentence already makes the facts clear.

*"The photographs were ultimately sold for up to $100,000. She referred to this incident at the outdoor Live Aid charity concert and stated that she would not take her jacket off because "they [the media] might hold it against me ten years from now."' - unlikely that she was referring to the sale. Also, the word "incident" again introduces bias: she attended some sessions, for which she was paid $25 per session, and the other party then acted in accordance with what she had agreed. Events unfolded in consequence thereafter. It was not one incident. PL290 (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning to oppose The responses to my points above have brought some improvement, although some concerns remain, including that of the lead coverage. The above comments were only from a quick scan of the article; scanning again, I find further examples of unpolished prose and other potential issues:

  • A tendency towards proseline. "In 1999, this happened. In 2000, that happened." Does not make for engaging prose.
    • I did use other formats, but editors, who have supported above opposed to such additions of "Same year" or other variations of it.
      • That you are able to reply in these terms forces one to question the depth of consideration given to the charge that the article has a tendency to exhibit proseline. PL290 (talk) 18:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I can actually make other changes, but what would you suggest in scenarios like these? --Legolas (talk2me) 03:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • For such sentences, work the prose into a narrative thread, engaging the reader with sentences that connect with each other, rather than presenting a list of unrelated statements. (See also Indopug's early comment about one part, "the sentences aren't really related to each other at all".) Sometimes, "In 2000, such-and-such happened" is fine, but when it happens too much it's a sign of problems and makes for boring prose. PL290 (talk) 08:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'achieved notoriety for her "unusual" behavior' - there are surely more encyclopedic ways of putting this than using scare quotes.
  • "particularly for her underwear fetish" - does Taraborrelli say she had/has an underwear fetish? Do a broad range of reliable sources also state this, and has she said as much herself, or is it the opinion of observers? Do they (and she) say her sexual attention seeking in class was because of her underwear fetish? That she had/has such a fetish is quite an extreme statement to make in a WP:BLP. Even if true, it appears to be used in a synthesis here, unless the sources do support its connection with her antics as a girl wanting boys to notice her.
    • There is a direct quote in Taraborrelli's article about Madonna saying "I used to like all kinds of underwear! Mine was these big red bloopers which were quite ugly, I wanted to have those lace thingies that others wore and had a fetish for different types of panties. [...] I used to be naughty, hanging from those monkey bar thingies, cartwheels and handstands were my favourite for showing in the hallways between classes, hell I even showed them boy my bloopers. I had them in my pockets! " This should explain you. --Legolas (talk2me) 10:12, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"Madonna ended her relationship with Leon in December 1998, with Madonna citing that they were "better off as best friends."" - clunky. Vague linking word "with", and needless repetition of "Madonna".

*"She followed the success of Ray of Light with the single, "Beautiful Stranger", recorded for the 1999 film Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me's soundtrack." - clunky. The comma after "single" is extraneous, and the unnecessarily complicated possessive at the end is a distraction.

Sorry, but these are again only examples from a quick scan, and I feel thorough copyediting and polishing is required before the article wil be ready for FA status. PL290 (talk) 09:49, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, addressed your concern. I won't say that I am very good in English, but this is a huge article and your inputs are extremely welcome, if somewhere I might have slipped. :) --Legolas (talk2me) 10:12, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, can I request you to move your commets in a box as resolved comments? Actually it is getting very difficult to read through with all the comments and everything. A humble request. --Legolas (talk2me) 10:14, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know some reviewers adopt that practice, but my preference is not to do so except in unusual circumstances, since I consider review comments are relevant to all while the review is ongoing. You have addressed some of my concerns, but not all, and my general impression is, as I said, that a thorough copyedit and polish is needed before this article is ready for FA status. Sorry to have to say that; I know it's disappointing if a nomination doesn't succeed straight away, but it's not the end of the world to take a couple of weeks polishing an article and bring it back for another nomination. (I've been there too.) I have struck resolved comments. PL290 (talk) 18:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know PL290, that nominations may not pass in the first attempt. That's why I'm taking all the points you guys are making as constructive criticism. I will give the article a thorough copy edit and make sure that its FAC brilliance, I promise. What I meant was that can you move your resolved comments in a comment box? Then it will be easy to go through the unresolved ones. Just a request. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if I sound too pessimistic; the nom is listed at FAC urgents, so I assumed it was much closer to the bottom of the list than I now see it actually is. If you hope to fix things during this candidacy, you may be advised to try and get an independent copyeditor, particularly since you say you have trouble with some aspects of English. (I see that at an early stage Indopug mentioned the need for copyediting.) I also feel Suomi Finland 2009 has a point about structure, and that the proseline/diary effect may be reduced if you bring some of the detail out of the chronological Biography section into topic sections; any reorganization would probably need to precede a final copyedit. On resolved comments, I understand what you requested, and I hope you can accept that for the reason I gave, some reviewers prefer not to do that. PL290 (talk) 08:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all. I understand your point completely. Of course I approve these points with the hope that I can better the article. --Legolas (talk2me) 10:29, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Point. Suomi Finland feels now that having a same structure is fine. --Legolas (talk2me) 10:35, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you mean by that. As far as I can see, this is the latest thing Suomi Finland 2009 has said on the subject: "My feeling is if there was a Pulitzer Prize journalist writing this article, they would not write a massive diary style article. WP FA's are supposed to be the best. We can do it! Possibly in 2 days. I am willing to help but will not start the process because people might misunderstand and think that I am a troublemaker." Anyway, my current position is as follows. You've been updating, and I've been striking, all my very picky points above, but as I said, those were only examples from a quick scan, seemingly indicative of general prose issues. I now have an opportunity to devote time to reading the whole article, which I will do over the next few hours. I will then comment further here. PL290 (talk) 17:01, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I will wait for your prose-related further review before I do my own similar review. Binksternet (talk) 18:49, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Conditional Support with comments

EDIT: On further reflection, I think I may be off the mark with my comment about the need for the article to emphasize the artist's current status. I've looked at a few other articles of active artists and they don't seem to do it. I'm therefore striking that as a condition—I'll leave it up to other reviewers to comment further if necessary. My support is now unconditional; the remaining points below are for incorporation if possible. PL290 (talk) 10:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very comprehensive, detailed, and well sourced article. As several reviewers have noted, it does exhibit something of the proseline nature of a list of events or diary, making the prose less engaging than it might otherwise be. However, it's difficult to see how that can be avoided for the topic in question. I've now been right through the article, making some copyedits as I went. As I did so, I gave further consideration to Suomi Finland 2009's suggestion about restructuring: my conclusion is that there are no obvious main topics that could be assembled by extracting detail from the chronological Biography section in order to reduce the latter's size and list-like nature. So I no longer entertain the notion that any reorganization would be beneficial.

I am listing some specific comments below; my support is not conditional upon these, though they can hopefully be incorporated without difficulty. I will start with one which is an example of unrelated sentences strung together in a list, in this case to humorous effect:
  • "Life with My Sister Madonna, a book by Madonna's brother Christopher Ciccone, debuted at number two on The New York Times Bestseller List. It was not authorized by Madonna, and led to a rift between them. She filed for divorce from Ritchie, finalized in December 2008."
  • "GPA" needs wikifying (perhaps more commonly known in U.S.)
  • There is still some overlinking
  • "The adoption raised strong public reaction, because Malawian law requires would-be parents to reside in Malawi for one year before adopting, which Madonna did not do.[129] She refuted the allegations on The Oprah Winfrey Show, saying that there were no written adoption laws in Malawi that regulated foreign adoption." - there's a conflict between these two sentences. The first states what the law is; the second then refers to "allegations" (which is not an appropriate word if the public reaction was simply to her defiance of Malawi law). Further, "refuted" is probably overstating it, if she simply claimed there was no such law. Please straighten out both sentences to make all these facts clear.
  • There's no indication—either in the lead or the 2007–present section—of Madonna's current status and creative focus. It doesn't need much, probably just a sentence in the lead and one or two in 2007–present, but at the moment we are left hanging in both places with no clue about it.
    • I'm confused. It is present that she is currently doing her film W.E, and I don't think that is exactly necessary for the lead. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Okay; as I said, I think I was off the mark. I see the latest film is not mentioned in the lead, but in fact that's probably correct, as it's a very specific thing and it would constitute recentism to have it in the lead. Thanks for addressing all the other points. PL290 (talk) 08:39, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are still areas where the prose could benefit from further polishing, but I think it's not a deal-breaker and the article meets the criteria so I am happy to support. PL290 (talk) 21:28, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot PL. Really appreciated. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I'm gradually looking through the article, and I'll say right off that although I'm willing to spend some time looking and commenting, I don't always have a lot of time on any given day. If there's anything that I think needs some rewording or that is easy enough to deal with, I'll do so, and I've already made a couple of edits. I'll just comment here on issues that I think relate more to content.
*Barbra Streisand is mentioned in the lead, but nowhere else. As the lead is supposed to summarize the article and should be made up of the main points, Streisand needs to be either mentioned in the article or removed from the lead. I'd choose the first option.

*"There, she was known for her high GPA" - "GPA" is probably not immediately understood by non- Americans (such as myself), so I think it should be linked to something explanatory. I'm not sure what.

*"After her mother died of breast cancer at age 30 on December 1, 1963,[6] her father married the family's housekeeper Joan Gustafson" - I think linking the two in one sentence is not the right approach. Literally, the second marriage could have taken place anytime from later in the day, December 1, 1963 so to give the date for one but not the other, is confusing. I think the points should be dealt with seperately. Also, there's a quote about her treatment of her step-mother which I think is appropriate, but given the impact her mother's death had on her, and how it shaped her determination to succeed, a quote about her mother's death would be a great addition. It would also help separate the death and the second marriage.

    • I really like what your are saying and made some changes accordingly. Would that work? I looked it up again and it felt really sad. She was a poor kid :( --Legolas (talk2me) 03:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's a huge improvement - thanks. I've reworded it a little. We don't need to mention Andrew Morton. That makes it seems that she made the comment specifically for him, and that's probably not the case. I think it's stronger to leave it with just her comment, and Morton cited as the source. I'm sure I've read her quoted as saying that her mother's death fuelled her will to stand out and her ambition to succeed, and if I can find it, I'll add it. It's not crucial, but it would expand the personal reaction, which I think is highly suitable, to place it into the context of her career. Rossrs (talk) 10:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Regarding "Like a Prayer" - "Since the commercial and music video were nearly identical, Pepsi was unable to convince the public that their commercial was unrelated to the video." I know the FOX article says the two are similar but the commercial is on You Tube. The only similarity I can see is that Madonna is in both. I suggest looking at other sources to see if another point of view is given. I also question that Pepsi was "unable to convince the public" (which is not covered by the FOX source). By my own recollection of the reporting of this episode, they didn't try to convince the public of anything and dropped Madonna like a hot potato. Again, I suggest looking at other sources. If you've already done so, and this is what the consensus opinion is, that's fine, but I have my doubts.

    • Looked in Andrew Morton's biography of Madonna, there he reports that the commercial was similar to the song, not the video and he did not comment on Pepsi trying to convince the public. Hence removed, and substituted with the fact that religious groups were boycotting their product which made them drop Madonna. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"Madonna tried to tone down the provocative image, by releasing the ballad single "I'll Remember" (1993) which she recorded for Alek Keshishian's film With Honors.[75] She made a tame appearance with Letterman at an awards show as well as appearing on the The Tonight Show with Jay Leno." Is this all sourced to J. Randy Taraborrelli? (I don't have his book.) I only question the "tone down the provocative" bit, because "Erotica" was the only "provocative" single from Erotica. "I'll Remember" is fairly similar to, for example, "Rain" which had already been released as a single, so I don't understand how "I'll Remember" could be used as a kind of damage control. Also the word "tame" - if this is a quote it needs to be attributed otherwise it reads as original research. "Tame" is not a neutral word and in Madonna's case there is more than one possible connotation. If it's attributed to someone, that's ok, but otherwise it should be made neutral. "Continuing to tone down her image, Madonna released Something to Remember, a collection of her ballads, in May 1995." - repeating the phrase that she's trying to tone down her image so soon after it's first mentioned, is redundant, and because there's no source given, I'm not sure if this is still Taraborrelli talking. Rossrs (talk) 14:51, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • Actually, although "I'll Remember" was released after "Rain", it was a bigger hit that the latter, which made the public sit up and notice Madonna the artist once more. "Rain" was simply lost in the Erotica controversy and it did not help that Madonna made the appearance on LEtterman before that. Hence Taraborrelli commented that Madonna had to tone down the provocation, and her last chance was "I'll Remember", a simple love song, and distancing herself as much as possible from the Erotica era. The second part about Something to Remember being used for toning down her image is misleading, hence removed. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's better, but I'm not sure it's there yet. I think "restrained" would be a better word than "tame". Maybe even "subdued". "Tame" could mean "limp", "lifeless" etc. It has a somewhat negative connotation that is at odds with the discussion about her changing direction in a positive way. We're talking about a proactive Madonna seizing control of her career direction, and triumphing, and I don't think there's anything "tame" in that. I would change this sentence - "She realized that her music career needed some dramatic changes in order to sustain herself in the long run." Something like "She realized that she needed to change her musical direction in order to sustain her popularity." I think that would lead more smoothly into the Bedroom Stories section. What do you think? Rossrs (talk) 10:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think subdued would be a better word, since she technically did not restrain herself, but banked on the negative feedback ("Human Natuer?"). So subdued works fine as it gives the reader the feel that she softened herself and her raunchy image for her musical career. It would also, as you point out, work better for the Bedtime Stories line, which was the time that she turned away from Erotica, nevertheless, remaining as defiant as before. --Legolas (talk2me) 10:41, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*"Throughout her career Madonna, like David Bowie, has repeatedly reinvented herself through a series of visual and musical personas." - I'm puzzled by this. This is the only mention of David Bowie and it comes out of the blue, with no discussion of comparison and nothing to suggest she was influenced by him. Is this a theme you wish to build upon, or could we lose "like David Bowie"? It would then read "Throughout her career Madonna has repeatedly reinvented herself through a series of visual and musical personas." I think that would suffice. Rossrs (talk) 10:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Legolas, thank you for the prompt manner in which you've dealt with the issues I've raised. Happy to support this now. Rossrs (talk) 13:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

media Ideally images should alternate left right to balance the article (this is not always possible, but I feel should be attempted). Images with faces should look into the text (or outward), this is particularly true of the info box image. licensing acceptable. I find the preceding table unhelpful this is not a vote Fasach Nua (talk) 17:50, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, I have rearranged the images wherever applicable. Care to look once again? The prior table was done because it was getting very difficult to navigate through as the comments filled up the whole page. This is not done for voting, just to show the consensus. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:40, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments. Karanacs (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by Karanacs. This is a regretful oppose; as I was reading the article through in order to promote it I realized that I couldn't in good conscience do so. I think this article is close to meeting FAC criteria but isn't quite there yet. I agree with the complaint above that this reads more like a timeline, but I don't think that reorganization is necessary. Rewriting and a bit of addition could fix that problem.

  • One of the larger issues, and what likely led to the complaints that this reads like a diary, is paragraph organization. Both within a paragraph, and from paragraph to paragraph within a section, the focus often completely changes. This makes the reading experience very jumpy. Often, this can be fixed by rewording the sentences. Here's an example of simple changes that can be made to partially fix the problem [2]. Topic sentences can also help. I was going to fix this myself, but it is too widespread.
  • I felt like I was occasionally drowning in detail. I don't really care, as a reader, to be told that song X is her 7th number one hit in the US and song Y is her 8th number one hit....do we really need to know the "number number one", rather than just be told that this was a number one hit? Do we really need to know in this article that song X was used in a Microsoft commercial? Do we really need to know in this article that she appeared at the VMAs to speak about Michael Jackson?
  • I'm disappointed that we aren't given more quotes from Madonna. Overall, I don't feel like we are given a good overview of her as a person rather than an overview of her career. Hearing her perspectinve, in her own words, would alleviate some of that. If this can't all be fit in the prose, perhaps quote boxes?
  • We're also missing almost any discussion of motivations. Example 1: At the time, I remember reading about how badly Madonna wanted the part of Evita, and her performance in that movie really floored a lot of critics who thought her casting was a disaster. There's nothing on any of that in here. Example 2: Are there any sources detailing how Madonna's early loss of her mother affected her choices later in life?
    • Point 1. I believe the chunk I added addresses it. Point 2. User:Rossrs is searching for some info, which he will add. (Edit) I added it instead about how her mother's influence crept in to her music. --Legolas (talk2me) 06:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The early part of the article mentions Madonna's impact on 80s fashion (and not a single picture!!) and later we hear that Madonna has her own clothing line. To me, this is an interesting circle, but we aren't told anything about what types of clothes are sold in her line, or why she or the company chose to enter into this partnership. By this point, Madonna isn't the fashion icon that she was - why her?
  • The bright, girlish vocal timbre of the early years became passé in Madonna's later works, the change being deliberate - why? why did she make this change?
  • There's repetition in the structure. We're told in the bio that she became involved in Kabbalah (but not how it effected her), and then told this again in the Influences section. Same type of thing with discussion of Like a Prayer repeated in different areas. That suggests that perhaps a bit more thinking about the structure and division is necessary.
    • I believe the Like a Prayer quote box can explain that? And the same for the Kabbalah. The influence on her albums like Ray of Light and Music is explained before, but the influence on life and as a whole is discussed later.--Legolas (talk2me) 04:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The influence of the Kaballah was subsequently observed in Madonna's music, especially albums like Ray of Light and Music. " - can this be expanded at all?
  • Reporter Michael McWilliams commented: "The gripes about Madonna—she's cold, greedy, talentless—conceal both bigotry and the essence of her art, which is among the warmest, the most humane, the most profoundly satisfying in all pop culture."[217] - we haven't really been told that she's "cold, greedy, talentless" - where did this criticism come from?

Karanacs (talk) 19:05, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • Removed. --Legolas (talk2me) 09:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Is this type of criticism accurately reflected in the article? In my reading, the article seems to portray Madonna in a very good way, and there is limited criticism (beyond the oft-referenced rantings of the religious conservatives, which is necessary to include and amuses me greatly). If there are sources that echo these sentiments, then they need to be given appropriate space and explanation. Karanacs (talk) 15:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes there is. Quite a few business related articles convey how ruthless and shrewd she is, when it comes to matters of money. I added two of them to balance the section. Regarding "the article seems to portray Madonna in a very good way", I don't know which section you are referring to, because Madonna's music and films have been analysed in both the positive and negative way. I don't need others like the tabloidy features of "how much a bad mom Madonna is" can be remotely encyclopedic. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies for the delay in my return; real-life got in the way. Overall, excellent work on focusing the paragraphs better. The transitions between topics are much better. I think some of the content additions are also helping to give a more in-depth feel of who Madonna is and why she did some of the things she did.
  • I like Moni3's proposed lead much better than the current one - I think it gives a better overview of Madonna and her career and the prose flows better.
  • I think that the expansion of the early life section is overall very helpful, as it gives a much clearer picture of what motivated some of Madonna's later behavior. I think it may stray a tad into unnecessary detail, however - do we need quite so much information on Madonna's attempts to play with her mother or can this be summarized a little more?
  • Has someone specifically checked the copyright status of File:Madonna Ciccone.jpg. This image has both a PD license and a fair use rationale. From my understanding, it is not PD, as it was not published between 1923 and 1977 without a copyright notice. I don't think we can justify it as fair use either, but images aren't my specialty.
  • We need to have a citation at the end of a sentence with quotations in it; this may mean duplicating the citation in consecutive sentences, but that's okay.
  • There is still a lot of overly wordy sentence structure. Example only: The death of her mother had left such deep emotional scars in her, that Madonna was terrified that she would lose her father too. She would crawl beside her father in bed, as she would suffer from recurring nightmares of loneliness; it was only with the assurance that her father was with her could she fall soundly and safely asleep could be distilled down to Terrified that her father could be taken from her as well, Madonna was often unable to sleep unless she was near him. This type of editing could be useful in many areas of the article - there are lots of places where the article uses 2 sentences and 30 words when we could use 1 sentence and 10 words to convey the same meaning. Given the length of the article (justified by her long career), the prose really needs to be as tight as possible.
  • Do we need to know which artists/musicians she was living with while preparing for her debut album? Unless they had some specific impact on the development of the album or her career in general, this seems more trivial.
  • Punctuation in this sentence is off: Mainly created by stylist and jewelry designer Maripol, Madonna's lace tops, skirts over capri pants, fishnet stockings, jewelry bearing the crucifix, multiple bracelets, and bleached hair—became a female fashion trend of the 1980s
  • She eventually achieved global recognition after the release of her second studio album: Like a Virgin (1984). Two issues: a) is there a reason the year is in ( ) instead of saying "in 1984"? b) what do we mean by "eventually"? Is this supposed to mean "got famous after the release of her second album" or "the second album slowly raised her profile until at some point months/years after its release she was recognized globally?"
  • You should rework the caption for the Eva Peron picture. At first, this reads like the picture is "Madonna's portrayal of Eva Peron"
  • The article gives general information on how her movies were received overall, but does not give much specific information on how her acting was received.
    • It does, in the influences part. Doesnot elaborate on specific acting, but in general, Madonna the actress was always received negatively. Thats what the section says. "Madonna's film career has been largely received negatively by the film critic community. Stephanie Zacharek, critic for Time magazine, stated that, "[Madonna] seems wooden and unnatural as an actress, and it's tough to watch, because she's clearly trying her damnedest." According to biographer Andrew Morton, "Madonna puts a brave face on the criticism, but privately she is deeply hurt." After the 2002 box-office bomb Swept Away, Madonna vowed that she would never act in a film, hoping that her repertoire as a bad actress will never be discussed again." — This justifies the majority of critics panning her acting, which in turn did influence Madonna; she was hurt by their comments to the point that she vowed to never act in films. I think this area shows that although we get Madonna as a "DGAF" kinda woman, she is actually vulnerable." --Legolas (talk2me) 05:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Time magazine can't comment; it's reviewers can

Karanacs (talk) 14:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • She has been called "the perfect vocalist for lighter-than-air songs", despite not being a "heavyweight talent" - who called her that?
  • I like the additions to the Influences section describing her mother, but the first two paragraphs are extremely heavy on quotes. Some of these should be paraphrased.
  • We learn in "musical style" that Madonna is "an exemplary songwriter with a gift for hooks and indelible lyrics, but this is the first we've seen that she writes her own songs (did I miss something?; if so, sorry). Given the sheer number of her songs that have been hits, it might be worthwhile having at least a paragraph to describe her songwriting, or, if some of the rest of this section is directly related to her songs, vs those written by other people, then we might want to make that more clear.
  • Did she legally change her name or just ask people to call her that?
  • Did she actually "join the Jewish religion" or just study it?

Karanacs (talk) 15:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Update, leaning support- I got lost trying to go through my old comments again. Right now, my biggest sticking point is the image of Madonna's mother, which I'm unconvinced is actually PD. I left a message with User:Jappalang, who is also on a semi-wikibreak. Perhaps you could also leave a message on the Commons village pump? There are a lot more people over there who understand the intricacies of what is PD and what is not. Once the image status is ironed out I'll strike my oppose and support. Thanks for all your hard work!! Karanacs (talk) 14:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone pls ping me when this is resolved? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:09, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose at this pointSupport, subject to the footnote addition mentioned in my last point below, and presuming the additions in response to Karanacs pts have not introduced any probs requiring copyediting ('cos i did find a couple in the additions re Evita :-) hamiltonstone (talk) 11:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with some of Karanacs' pts (though i have less of an issue than does she), particularly about the lack of a sense of motivation at times. My main concerns are:
  • It needs more about Evita. Here we have arguably the most influential solo artist of her generation in her most infuential non-recording moment. But it whizzes by. No quotes of critics; no quotes of Madonna discussing her appearance. I think it deserves a paragraph of its own.
  • "After Lourdes' birth, Madonna became involved in Eastern mysticism and Kabbalah." The biography cannot get away with such a passing remark about something so significant. How did she become involved? How did this influence her personally? Professionally? etc etc.
  • On a more minor note, we do not need to be told the time of her birth, nor does it appear to be in either of the cited sources. Further, one of the sources quotes her as saying of her mother "she was French Canadian but she was born in Bay City." Well, here's the thing. If you're born in Bay City, you're American. Her mother died when Madonna was five, so Madonna must have a limited direct knowledge of her. How do we know her mother was French Canadian: because Madonna tells us that, when it is contradicted in the same sentence? We need a properly researched biography to vouch for this kind of claim. People have all sorts of fallacious understandings about their own ancestry, which is why we try and rely on biographers to sort through these things. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:21, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Removed the time. But the French Canadian descent thing was confirmed by Taraborrelli in the Madonna biography, where he quotes, "Fortin was of French Canadian descent with her family moving from Quebec..." Do you suggest to reword it in any way? --Legolas (talk2me) 09:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Comments by Gongshow. Overall this is a well-written, well-sourced and comprehensive article. I'm leaning to support but would like to first offer these suggestions:

  • "Six singles were released from the album, including 'Like a Prayer', and 'Express Yourself' and 'Cherish' both peaking at number two." - The wording of this sentence is awkward, and while it's not necessary to note every song's chart peak, I would prefer knowing that "Like a Prayer" reached number one if it's to be listed with the other singles.
  • Included Like a prayer peak

:*"'Justify My Love' reached number one in the U.S. and top five worldwide." The reference provided ([3]) does not indicate the song was "top five worldwide."

:*In the first paragraph of the "1992–96: Maverick, Sex, Erotica, Bedtime Stories and Evita" section, no dates are mentioned. While I assume all the action takes place in 1992, it would be helpful to clarify this somewhere, especially since the paragraph contains phrases like "equaled at that time" and "at the same time".

:*Regarding Music, "The album found her returning to the dance idiom and catered to her gay audience." - I'm a little confused by the wording. Returning from what? I think the sentence could also use a citation stating the album catered to her gay audience.

:*I recommend having a smoother transition between the end of the "1997-2002" section and the beginning of the "2003-06" section. For example, the "1992-96" section ends with the birth of Madonna's daughter and the next section begins with "After Lourdes' birth". The end of the "1958–81" section also does a decent job of linking to the beginning of the "1982–85" section. A smooth flow makes for a better read.

:*"Christmas 2003 saw the release of the "extended play" (EP) collection Remixed & Revisited". - I don't think "extended play" needs to be in quotes, and it appears the EP was released in November, not Christmas.

:*"Madonna also signed a contract with Callaway Arts & Entertainment as the author of five books, and published the first one entitled The English Roses. The story was about four English schoolgirls..." - The wording makes it sound like Madonna was the publisher. I would change this to something like, "Madonna also signed a contract with Callaway Arts & Entertainment to write five (children's?) books. The first of these books, entitled The English Roses, was published in (date) and reached the top of The New York Times Best Seller list."

:*"Throughout her career Madonna has repeatedly reinvented herself through a series of visual and musical personas. Fouz-Hernández agrees that this reinvention is one of her key cultural achievements." - The first sentence suggests multiple reinventions; the second says "this" reinvention. I assume Fouz-Hernández is referring to the "repeated" reinventions, but this should be clarified.

:*"After its establishment, Maverick Records—unusually for such labels—became a major commercial success from her efforts." - What is meant by "such"?

I have also made several minor edits to the article. Feel free to revert anything you feel necessary. Again, other than some small nitpicks here and there, I feel this is a very, very strong article overall.  Gongshow Talk 20:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC) w[reply]

Thank you for the wonderful comments Gongshow. --Legolas (talk2me) 03:45, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Great work. I'm happy to give the article my support.  Gongshow Talk 04:38, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Conditional oppose: I left all my comments on the talk page...enough to cause ClueBot to PMS and suggest it be overturned. I think this article is very close to FA. Legolas and I are in different time zones, so I don't know if he has seen my comments and suggestions. The crux of my commentary is basic stuff, easy reorganization and slight clarifications. It should be simple to do if Legolas agrees. I would like to see his reply to my commentary before this FAC is archived or promoted (Hint Karanacs and Sandy). --Moni3 (talk) 19:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I left my comments in the talk page itself. Thanks Moni for your comments, they brought out some new light. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:06, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm changing to support. For an article of this size, it's still a bit flawed and awkward in some areas, but for the most part I can appreciate it for being a comprehensive article on one of the most accessed topics on the site. I think there is room for discussion still about streamlining the prose into sections because I think some information is hidden--and I have suspicions this is done more to protect Madonna than it is to present information on Wikipedia--but this seems to be a style issue that is not insurmountable at this time. If articles like Michael Jackson and Janet Jackson also have this structure, it might be worth having a discussion on how to make this more uniform. I'm always willing to give my opinion on improving it. Read this as good job, but you know...better you than me for having to maintain Madonna's article. Jiminy. --Moni3 (talk) 16:05, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

<put FAC delegate hat on>It's not necessary, and not encouraged, to maintain these types of lists. Sandy and I don't rely on them because we can't tell if they are up-to-date, and because FAC is not a vote; a "support" comment may still contain information that backs up an "opppose" and a thoughtful "comment" without a declaration either way can be very useful in helping determine consensus.<takes FAC delegate hat off; puts reviewer hat back on> Karanacs (talk) 14:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful point. I have removed the table. Wasn't my idea anyway. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:17, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Disappointed comments.

  • The length and duration of this nomination page suggest that the article was underprepared. Please note that this is not social welfare, doled out on request. Reviewing resources are being sucked in by such nominations.
  • This process is not a vote, as is suggested by the league table above. And when Karanacs says "Oppose", why is this transformed into a "Withholding full support"?
  1. I had a look through the lead. Towards the top, this is a long snake: "Utilizing religious imagery in her fourth studio album Like a Prayer (1989), Madonna was praised by critics for her diverse musical productions while at the same time religious conservatives and the Vatican criticized her." – "Utilizing" is one of the ugliest words in English, and can so easily be replaced by "Using". "critics" and "criticized" within two seconds. The contrastive here suggests that the Vatican (not religiously conservative, it suggests) criticized the diversity of her musical productions. Is that right? Later, we are told that her sexually explicit material caused negative reaction in "conservatives and liberals" (what does "alike" add?). So why are elements of the political spectrum mentioned at all if it didn't matter where you stood on it? I'm confused.
    I believe religious groups is better suited here. The contrastive did suggest which political spectrum is making a statement on her work.
  2. "Madonna played the starring role in the film "—"starred in the film"?
    Different than starring role, which is generally the top-billed role in a film.
  3. "Madonna is known for continually reinventing both her music and image, and for retaining a standard of autonomy within the recording industry.
    I don't see anything wrong in it.
  4. "New York, New York"—It's like a stammer. "New York City" for an international readership, please, unlinked. Why were such obscure terms as "vocals" and "drums" linked? Why was US$ linked? And MOSNUM says US dollars are the default, so just $, please.
    Only the first instance of $ is linked to United States dollar, this gives the reader a first-hand knowledge that the dollar signs throughout the article is of US origin.
  5. Ellipsis points—where there's a period in the original, as here, insert the three points unspaced after the period: "confusion. [...] I saw my mother," -> "confusion.... I saw my mother,". I see more of this further down.
  6. "Gradually, Madonna's look and manner of dressing, her performances and her music videos started influencing young girls and women."—Both "Gradually" and "started to" are overkill, aren't they?
    It's just started in the sentence. Also, Gradually here denotes the present imperfect tense of the situation.
  7. The dash is odd here: "Mainly created by stylist and jewelry designer Maripol, Madonna's lace tops, skirts over capri pants, fishnet stockings, jewelry bearing the crucifix, multiple bracelets, and bleached hair—became a female fashion trend of the 1980s." I'd just remove it and have a space.
    Right.
  8. Here's another termporal oddity: "She eventually achieved global recognition after the release of her second studio album: Like a Virgin (1984)." So we were waiting a looooong time for this to happen by 1984, yes?
    Lol. no.

I haven't read further, but I suspect there will be issues scattered throughout. Tony (talk) 08:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments. --Legolas (talk2me) 08:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Minor comments (only read small bits)

Thank you for your comments Randomblue. --Legolas (talk2me) 04:11, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very long FAC; where does Moni3 stand? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:36, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Moni3 has supported as well as Karanacs as the image issue is resolved. --Legolas (talk2me) 05:02, 5 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:05, 4 June 2010 [4].

Symphony No. 8 (Mahler)

Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) 23:53, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another salute to Mahler in his 150th anniversary year (the centenary of the premiere is on 12 September 2010). This symphony was the greatest success of Mahler's lifetime and has stayed popular with the public, although there is often less enthusiasm from the critics. It is the ultimate combination of symphony and song, and its unofficial subtitle "Symphony of a Thousand" is apt. For once, it was a pleasure to write the article; I hope some readers will likewise enjoy it. Brianboulton (talk) 23:53, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I had the pleasure of peer reviewing this article. It was top flight then, and is better still now. In my opinion it meets all the FA criteria and is a worthy candidate for the front page. - Tim riley (talk) 00:25, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support I too peer reviewed it and found all of my (minor) concerns were addressed in the PR. I also want to note as an Image Review that all of the images are either PD-old, or modern with a free license. Well done, and I think this would be a fitting tribute for the centennial anniversary of the premier. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:37, 29 May 2010 (UTC) PS I am planning on listening to this symphony just because of reading this article[reply]

Comments - quite a nice article, with a few points to take care of to make it really great.

  • (dab check - no dab links)
  • External links - http://www.andante.com/Profiles/Mahler/Symph8.cfm returns invalid hostname; "Symphony of a Thousand in Quebec" is a redirect (and has a title that does not match the source)
    • The first of these is an irritation. I took a print copy of this article on 20 April, and the link was still working on 18 May when I sent the article to peer review. Andante.com is hosting a series of Mahler tributes, and the article by Henry-Louis de La Grange on the Eighth is part of this. Now this and the other tribute articles all appear to have vanished. If I can't locate the new site within a day or so, I will find other sources for the information cited here. As to the Quebec source, I have switched this to a different and more stable site.
      • You could also check archive.org or a similar site to see if they have a copy
        • Checks have proved fruitless, but I have found a BBC source that replicates much of the material. I am using this, with appropriate small changes to the text. The dead link has been removed.Brianboulton (talk) 16:06, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Correct spelling of Gut(t)man(n)?
  • Did Mahler actively disapprove of the nickname, or did he simply not acknowledge it?
    • Biographer Carr refers to Mahler's "dismay" at the name, which I guess amounts to disapproval (which doesn't of course have to be active; silent disapproval can be equally potent). I believe my choice of wording reflects fairly what the sources say, but I can change "despite Mahler's disapproval" to "without Mahler's approval" if you really think the point important.
      • My point was that "despite Mahler's disapproval" seemed to contradict with "Mahler did not acknowledge the name" in the lead; if you're satisfied with both wordings I won't insist on changing it
  • Musikfesthalle or Musik-festhalle?
  • "it has also been compared to the Beethoven's Ninth Symphony" - revise to reflect intended meaning
    • I have deleted the superfluous "the", if that is what you were meaning. Otherwise, please clarify.
      • Yes, that makes sense
  • Is the second section based on the closing scene or scenes of Faust?
  • "four trumpets, 4 trombones" - why the different number format?
  • The "subsequent performances" image is a program, not an advertisement, correct?
  • Faust is arguably a play, not a poem, and Part II was written entirely in the 19th century
    • I have rarely seen it referred to as a "play". I have seen many references to it as a "poem" or "dramatic poem", and these are the terms I have employed.
      • Understandable. Feel free to point that out to the editors of our own article on the subject ;)
  • Prose is technically correct, but lacks flow in areas - could use another set of eyes
    • Other eyes have viewed it. If you can indicate where you think that flow is lacking, perhaps attention can be directed to those areas.
      • More a general point than a specific complaint; I'll see if I can fix this myself.
  • Be consistent in using "Oxford" vs "Oxford, UK" as the location for Oxford U Press. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:42, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for these comments and for the sharpness of eye. Where I have not replied, I have simply corrected the text. Brianboulton (talk) 19:12, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support I also peer reviewed the article and there were relatively few concerns and they were addressed. Fulfils all FA criteria.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:24, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images - The PD-US template is over used, and while acceptable, is less free than desirable. If possible use pd-old, pd-germany or plain pd depending on what is appropriate per FAC3 Fasach Nua (talk) 10:32, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments Pretty much there, but could do with a final polish. Some points:
  • Underlinked: I'm not one to want Austria, but symphony, sonata form & others should be linked, especially musical terms, but also Strophe.
    • Of musical terms, I have now linked sonata form and some related terms (exposition, development etc). I am pretty sure that all musical terms (including symphony) are linked at first mention, but if you spot others I'll be happy to deal with them. About "strophe" I am not so sure. First, the word only occurs within a quotation and we don't usually link within a quote; secondly, the "Strophe" article is a mess, with heavy cleanup banners in place. I'm not sure that a direct to this article will be helpful. Instead I have added a parenthetical "verses" to the quote, which is surely all readers need to know.
  • Since Maiernigg is in the municipality of Maria Wörth (pop. 1357), that should be added (really it should redirect there with a little added)
    • With all due respect, and thanks for the info, I'm not sure this tells anyone much. From the maps, Maiernigg is several miles east of Maria Worth and the connection between the two places seems entirely administrative. My own view is that mentioning the province, the lake and the place-name is probably enough. But tell me if you feel strongly.
I make them within sight of each other, and just over 3 miles apart by boat, which I'm sure is the best way to travel it. But I wouldn't withhold support for that. Wörthersee is not much use, and has no map. Johnbod (talk) 21:52, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I've worked the town name in - see what you think, whether it overloads the text? Brianboulton (talk) 16:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've set up Maiernigg as a redirect, with some text added, so is fine as it is now. Johnbod (talk) 16:58, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Symphony of a Thousand redirects & should be bolded.
  • the unlinked "ninth-century Christian Pentecostal hymn" Veni creator spiritus is rather misleadingly described as Pentecostal; it should be "for Pentecost".
  • a translation of the singer's "role" titles would be more useful than the now forgotten soloists at the premiere, if there is not room for both.
    • I think that the premiere soloists' names, if known, should be given, whether they are forgotten or not. This is significant information. As to translations of the role titles, many of them are proper names. Of the others, "Magna peccatrix" might be "Woman of great sins", "Mulier Samaritana" would be "Samarian woman" and "Maria Aegyptica" is "Maria of Egypt". I'll add these.

Johnbod (talk) 19:24, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. As usual, excellent work from this Brian. A few niggles:
  1. Why "The" before the title, first word?
  2. "considerable critical"—a mouthful ... could the first word be dropped?
  3. Remove "more mature", since that is indicated by "middle"?
  4. Characteristic and characterised in the lead; no big deal, though.
  5. "a defining document"—I'd rather think of it in its aural realisation rather than pieces of paper if we're to talk about defining a century.
  6. I do find the use of commas idiosyncratic. I can cope, I guess. Sometimes they appear where you wouldn't think they're necessary ("Throughout this time his practice was to leave Vienna at the close of the Hofoper season for a summer retreat, where he could devote himself to composition.") Most writers would insert a comma after "death" to avoid "death performances". As now, it's "In the period following the composer's death performances were comparatively rare, but from the mid-20th century onwards the symphony has been heard regularly in concert halls all over the world, and has been recorded many times." I'd be inclined to do this: "In the period following the composer's death, performances were comparatively rare; but from the mid-20th century onwards, the symphony has been heard regularly in concert halls all over the world and has been recorded many times."
  7. Deryck Cooke did something wonderful with the 10th, but I find "of utterance" highly pretentious or plain ambiguous in this quotation, to the point of wanting an ellipsis: "more stern and forthright ..., more tautly symphonic, with a". Better rhythm, anyway. I don't find the repetition of the "of" grammar in "of orchestration" convincing, either. Who is uttering? Not the prettiest word in Engish, either. And was he referrring to the lyrics? It's hard to say, which is unsatisfactory from the reader's point of view.
  8. "The first note shows:"—can it be "note is", to avoid the repetition with the previous "show"? Tony (talk) 07:42, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Tony. I've done most of the tweaks you suggest. I queried "The" before the title when I began the article's expansion, but another editor was pretty insistent it should be there (see talkpage discussion), and I didn't feel strongly enough to the contrary to make an issue of this. Cooke use the term "document" in relation To Beethoven's Ninth, but I've altered it to "statement". I will run a comma check to see if I can iron out some idiosyncracies. Pleased to have your support. Brianboulton (talk) 10:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support I have nothing to add to this discussion apart from my full support. In a way, such well-prepared candidates can be a little frustrating because there is little positive criticism left to offer. Having said this, I didn't like "redraftings" but I can live with it :-) Graham Colm (talk) 14:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, Graham, and I've made it "rewriting". Thanks for the support. Brianboulton (talk) 15:18, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:05, 4 June 2010 [5].

Horses in World War I

Nominator(s): Dana boomer (talk) 13:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article describes the equine participants of World War I and the hardships they endured during the war. It has been through a thorough GA review, a peer review and a MILHIST A-class review, as well as having the eyes of several other editors upon it in the past few weeks. Malleus and Yomangan have been especially helpful in the pre-FAC polishing. All external links were working as of a few minutes ago, and there were no dab links. The article has had a pre-FAC image review by Jappalang. Thanks in advance for all comments and suggestions. Dana boomer (talk) 13:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments WOW!!! I've read this a few times in its development. It was always "good" and then "pretty good", but now it is excellent. I made a few tweaks—one verb construction and a missing comma—and I'll read it through again in the next few days, but it is in fine shape. It has a clear and obviously logical structure, the prose is enormously improved, pictures reflect the prose (although I'd love to see one by the Canadian artist), statistics are all there, etc. So, although I may have additional comments and tweaks to suggest over the next few days, I'll be the first to

SUPPORT. Nice job, Dana and friends. Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your support, Ruth! Dana boomer (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would seem better to link to the DOC document (and use the appropriate marking for that, such as |format=DOC or so in cite templates). Ucucha 15:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—Looks good.
    • Comment—Overall it looks pretty good, and I think it's close to FA quality. However, I have a few concerns that I would like to see addressed first:
    • "Ultimately, because the Allied blockade prevented the Central Powers from importing horses to replace those lost, a lack of horses contributed to Germany's defeat." This sentence doesn't seem completely logical. Perhaps, "Ultimately, the Allied blockade prevented the Central Powers from importing horses to replace those lost, which contributed to Germany's defeat"?
    • The sentence that begins "Beginning in 1917, cavalry was deployed..." discusses the battle of Cambrai. The following sentence does not. Thus the successive sentence that begins "During the battle, a..." appears disconnected. Does "the battle" refer to Cambrai here?
    • "The Western Front in World War I made it clear that cavalry was almost useless against modern artillery..." I am unclear how this is relevant. The prior sentences had noted the ineffectiveness against "trench warfare, barbed wire and machine guns", but artillery was never mentioned. Could this be clarified?
    • The sentence that reads "In a charge by French lancers in June 1918,..." seems disconnected from the rest of the paragraph. Could you clarify what is it trying to communicate? Perhaps a trend in French tactics? Or that this was an unusual act?
    • "The Germans stopped using cavalry on the Western Front not long after the beginning of the war, changing in response to the Allied Forces' new, more mechanized, battle tactics." The tank was not introduced until 1917, so this looks incorrect. In fact I'd almost say it looks badly in error. The Allies were notable for their reliance on obsolete tactics, and their main change (prior to 1917) was improvements in artillery fire. But perhaps I'm mistaken.
    • Some of the text doesn't correctly fit the main topic of their affiliated sections. The paragraph that begins "Feeding horses was a major issue..." has more to do with logistics than casualties. (There is only one sentence in the paragraph that has to do with the death of horses.) The paragraph that begins, "Animals bolstered morale at the front..." has little to do with Logistical support.
      • Perhaps the current "casualties" section could be re-entitled "casualties and logistics", or maybe "logistics and casualties"? This way the information on feeding could remain there, and the paragraph on morale and cleanliness could be moved from the logistical support section. One of my major problems with this article was some of the information not fitting neatly into one topic or another. Or would a section just on "logistics" be long enough? And would that be too confusing with the section on "logistical support" that is detailing how horses were used to support the rest of the forces, rather than on how the forces supported the horses? Dana boomer (talk) 18:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC) Further reply - after sleeping on this for a night, what about "Care and casualties" or "Casualties and care"? This would get us away from the logistics/logistical support issue, while still showing that the section was about a little more than just the horses that died/were injured. Dana boomer (talk) 13:07, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources and referencing issues

  • Citations
    • 12: "Centre for First World War Studies" should not be italicised
    • 15: I can't relate the linked page to the citation details. Is this the right page?
      • Yes, this is the right page. The cite information was given to me by David Underdown (who commented above), and he has an actual copy of the article, so I think that the National Archives website just gives a garbled transcription of the article title. Dana boomer (talk) 16:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • In view of the disparities in the title of the cited article, I wonder about the value of citing to a page which merely advertises the mis-named article for sale. Wouldn't a straight cite to the article itself be a better approach? Brianboulton (talk) 16:24, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well I was working on the principle of "Say where you got it", I've only viewed via the pdf available from there (you can view it free if you're on-site at The National Archvies at Kew, and potentially via the ATHENS portal, if your institution subscribes to that resource). David Underdown (talk) 16:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • 30: The magazine is Undersea Warfare not Underseas Warfare
    • 77: UNESCO is not the publisher of this website - it is the patron of the exhibition which this website describes. The publisher is art-ww1.com. The title should, I believe, be rendered as "Art of the First World War: 15 - Umberto Boccioni"
    • 80: perhaps should have a more informative title than "Stories".
  • References list

Otherwise all sources look good, no further issues. Brianboulton (talk) 15:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, Brian. I think I have addressed all of them. Dana boomer (talk) 16:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The article as published in Ancestors magazine was entitled "The unluckiest man", for some reason, on the DoucmetnsOnline page which allows you to download a pdf which includes the article, this has been switched to "The last British soldier to be killed in WW1" (which of course explaions why he might be considered the unluckiest man...). The ability to download the article is essentially a matter of convenience - back copies could probably be obtained from Wharncliffe (though to add a layer of complication, Ancestors magazine has now ceased, and The National Archives will be launching a new magazine later this year). Perhaps the title should be amended to "The unluckiest man (The last British soldier to be killed in WW1)" which covers all bases? David Underdown (talk) 16:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Support. An excellent contribution. Doug (talk) 01:04, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • There were no "mechanized armored formations" in WWI.
  • Then what would you suggest I call something like the Royal Tank Regiment? Would it work better if I changed the sentence in the lead from "and many of the traditional functions of horse cavalry were replaced by mechanized armored formations." to something like "...horse cavalry began to be replaced by mechanized armored formations"? Dana boomer (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • RTR was a prototype tank regiment, but did not have the mechanised resources or tactical approach to justify suggesting that there were "mechanized armored formations" in WWI. Prototypes were deployed, intimitely comingled with and in support of a much heavier weight of foot soldiers. Guderian only came up with the concept of using "mechanized armored formations" after the war, so clearly they did not replace cavalry in WWI. I like that they were intended to replace the 'shock attack' function of cavalry, but that is where the similarity ends. The significance of the tank in WWI was largely constructed in the German propoganda and popular consciousness to justify the war's outcome. Doug (talk) 14:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's the particular term "mechanized armored formations" that has a distinct military meaning and that causes a problem, since they only became a reality two decades after the end of the war and had not been conceived at the time of the phasing out of cavalry. How about something along the lines of "Cavalry units were initially considered essential offensive elements of a military force, but over the course of the war, the manifest vulnerability of the horse to modern machine gun and artillery fire fostered interest in mechanized forces. This led to the development of tanks that would ultimately replace cavalry in the shock attack (ref from Blitzkrieg?)."? Doug (talk) 18:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • For referencing of the role of tanks in WWI: Willmott, H.P. (2003), First World War, Dorling Kindersley, ISBN 1405300299; ISBN 9781405300292 (pulled from tank).
  • Allright, I've replaced it with your proposed wording. As this is the lead, we don't need references for it. From my reading (anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), this new summary wording is still supported by the information and references given in the introductory paragraphs of the Cavalry section. Dana boomer (talk) 20:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Many British tacticians realized before the war that advances in technology meant that the era of mounted warfare was coming to an end." Is have to disagree, even post-WWI Liddell-Hart was quite isolated while the cavalry officer class was dominant and obstinate. Let's not sugar-coat their gross misunderstanding of the impact of technology on war pre-WWI, despite the lessons of the Crimean War and the Charge of the Light Brigade.
  • My sources made it quite clear that cavalry officers were "dominant and obstinate". I tried to convey this in the article without straight-out calling them thick-headed, behind-the-times idiots, but I apparently didn't do that well :) The way my sources described it, the tacticians tried to get the military to realize that cavalry was outmoded, but the cavalry commanders (perhaps older, higher ranking?) completely over-rode them. Would you have a suggestion to make this more clear without my going into the realm of OR? Dana boomer (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well said :) I was caught by a perceived mismatch between the initial sentence and your subsequent explanation. This appears to be a common theme. Doug (talk) 14:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • " In the years following the war most armies became mechanized, which required many cavalry regiments to be converted to armored units." Firstly, 'most armies' did not become mechanised. Secondly, mechanised units were created (for example in Germany) from scratch, not 'converted' from cavalry units.
  • Changed to "In the years following the war many major armies became mechanized, and most cavalry regiments were either converted to mechanized units or disbanded." I'm using "major" in the sense that they were major world players, although I'm not sure if this is completely clear. It is any better now, though? Dana boomer (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about "Following the war, the armies of the world powers initiated a process of mechanization in earnest, and most cavalry regiments were either converted to mechanized units or disbanded."? Doug (talk) 14:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am having a support-oppose relationship with this article. It tends to glorify horses where, although their contribution, nobility and suffering were immense, they were primarily draft animals and, in limited numbers, mounts for scouts in both world wars. There are also a number of questionable assertions regarding tanks and mechanised warfare, some of which I have highlighted above. Other than the accuracy issues, I really love the article: neat, concise, great prose, evocative and interesting. I'd support on FA criterion 1a, but the rest is too open for debate right now. Doug (talk) 04:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your comments, Doug, and for the 1a support. I have replied to your specific comments above (although with more questions than answers). If you have further specifics you would like to see changed, I am more than willing to work on them. I don't think, however, that the article has serious accuracy issues. I have tried to follow my sources closely and use only reliable scholarship, without delving into the realm of OR or speculation, and the article has already been reviewed by several military editors who didn't find serious errors in accuracy. That being said, I am interested in seeing further comments from you, and thanks again for your efforts on this article so far. Dana boomer (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your open attitude. I will rereview and try to avoid knee-jerk responses to common misconceptions regarding the military significance (negligible) and use (sparse, as infantry support) of tanks in WWI. Doug (talk) 14:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • LOL Doug, the article IS about horses so of course there is an emphasis! Focus is not "glorifiation," IMHO. (Full disclosure: I have been watching this article's evolution for months, am merely an involved copyeditor here, too COI to be part of the FAC, but not the primary researcher or contributor. AND I am diving in uninvited! (grin)) But on review of your comments, I have to express my 100% SUPPORT for this article's FAC and assure you that most of your concerns were already raised by others and addressed during the WP MilHist A-class review, where we had a lot of people wanting to bog the article down with extensive diversions and nuances about other areas of military equipment, tactics, etc., when the article is, as its title suggests, about the horse. The research Dana has done is extensive! Clearly, the verifiable contribution of six million animals with 25% of their losses occurring in battle clearly exceeds the common misperception that they were simply "draft animals and mounts for scouts." While your comments about tank warfare are helpful and Dana has expressed a clear desire to clarify any misperceptions or misinformation, the point of THIS article is the use of the horse and how WWI marked the transitional period between the use of horses and the use of assorted mechanized equipment as instruments of war. (Compare Horses in World War II, for both info on the changes in their use -- i.e. more true then that they were draft animals and mounts for scouts-- and an example of an article that Dana has NOT worked on! LOL!)
  • Also Doug, I want to encourage you in your own re-review of the article in light of the clarification Dana has provided and encourage you to address Dana's comments and questions with helpful specifics in line with your expertise. BUT - if you want Dana to keep the article as verified and accurate as it is already, can you provide us with appropriate source material to back up your assertions? You must have noticed that virtually every statement in the article has a citation, and Dana worked diligently to make sure that the contents of this article reflected the actual content of the source. (And note, the sources themselves may not have been experts on tank warfare, but still pass WP:V.) She is right that we cannot venture off into the realm of OR at this point in the game! Montanabw(talk) 18:51, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Like I said, I am glad for your expertise and I am doubly glad to see the offer of citations. But don't put words in my mouth -- I at no time claimed that MilHist reviewers were experts, nor did I "insist that improvements are unnecessary". I was merely trying to avoid another round of what I considered to be nitpicking over tangentally related topics that drug out the A-class review for months. I also did not intend to imply that citations trump accuracy, though what I wrote could be construed that way and do apologize to that extent. My intent was simply to explain that experts on horse cavalry may not have been experts on tanks, thus the terms in the article reflect the source material used, which can modified by other source material. Montanabw(talk) 20:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm going to AGF, despite that fact that you just deleted a good number of my comments. I understand your frustration with the length of the process. Doug (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per my comments that Montana just deleted, Dana, please take check double linking of shock tactics and shock attack. Other edits look good.
  • Are you meaning the linking of shock tactics both in the lead and in the body? I think this is an acceptable use of linking twice to the same term, but if it's a big deal I can remove the second link. Dana boomer (talk) 14:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • With respect to Battle of Cambrai "...although this plan never came to fruition." is unclear. I gather from Battle of Cambrai that three British cavalry divisions were deployed but the attempted breakthrough by the cavalry was late, and failed. Perhaps a rephrase for clarity? Doug (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Combination of Canada and the US seems rather arbitrary, is there a reason for this? In the context of both World Wars Canada is more closely associated with the UK than the US. Canada's army was functionally and politically an extension of the British Army. Personally, I'd split them into two sections at the line of the paragraph break. Australia, New Zealand and Canada (as Empire) is also a more logical grouping. Doug (talk) 22:03, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was trying to go for a geographical theme in the grouping. I also don't want to split it up into too many subsections, because a bunch of one-paragraph section looks really choppy. If you really think that these two need to be split up, what about this: Have a United Kingdom level three header (the same that Great Britain is now), with level four headers for Great Britain, ANZAC and Canada. Then have the US be its own level three header. Would this work? It's still more headers, but they're a lower level, so it would look less chopped up. Just some thoughts. Dana boomer (talk) 14:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per your comment, and a couple of other editors bringing up the same issue, I have now rearranged the Cavalry section to follow the outline above. Please check and see if this is acceptable to you. Dana boomer (talk) 13:24, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mea culpa on the comment deletion!!! That was unintentional, I thought the edit conflict was just my own double edit! Yesterday was sort of a suck-egg day for me, I was in a knee-jerk frame of mind myself. Montanabw(talk) 22:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. Doug (talk) 01:04, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Provisional Support – Haven't read all of the article yet, but I have looked at a good piece of it and everything seems fine prose-wise. I did make a couple of little copy-edits, which should be checked, but didn't spot any significant problems. If I get to read the rest of the article, I'll bump this to a full support. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 14:53, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Query, should the caption on File:TanksandhorsesatArras.jpg indicate that it's a work of art (author, title, etc)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:18, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the painting name and painter. Let me know what you think. Dana boomer (talk) 16:31, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:05, 4 June 2010 [6].

Loggerhead sea turtle

Nominator(s): TimHAllstr (talk) 01:45, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it is ready to be taken through the FA review process and is almost at FA status. TimHAllstr (talk) 01:45, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

media Images with faces should not point away from the text, the File:Loggerhead_turtle.png should not be political, and if it is political it should not be a UScentric political map Fasach Nua (talk) 05:32, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done all images now face into the article. Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 21:31, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, the flipped version shouldn't have been uploaded over the original; and "original image reversed" ought to be added to the caption. Or a better image could be used—it's not very good. —innotata 15:01, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't have a problem with political maps as such, since for land-based species country boundaries make distribution clearer. Country boundaries are unhelpful but harmless here, but having US state boundaries is US-centric Jimfbleak - talk to me?
my only concern was the US states, so for me, yes. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:59, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 20:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Interestingly the map appears to contain both Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia Fasach Nua (talk) 13:32, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have removed all country boundaries from the map now. You may have to refresh to get the latest version. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 19:33, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You left the Australian border in, but I can forgive that! FAC3 met Fasach Nua (talk) 19:41, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I removed three dead links. Were there any particular ones you noticed that linked to the wrong article? Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 20:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was given its scientific name by Carolus Linnaeus in 1758. — worrying that there's an error in line one, Linnaeus named it Testudo caretta — I see you give the correct name later, but the first sentence is still factually incorrect
*In lead The loggerhead is considered an endangered species and is protected under the United States' Endangered Species Act. — US-centric, isn't it protected anywhere else?
I changed that statement to: "The loggerhead is considered an endangered species and is protected by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature." This is also stated in the conservation efforts section. Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 20:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In many places during the nesting season, workers and volunteers from organizations such as the Fripp Island, South Carolina, Turtle Patrol search the coastline for nests — is this the only place in the world this occurs? no no no
  • What would you suggest would be the best way to go about fixing this? I can't imagine it being practical to list every organization that deals with the conservation of sea turtles. Maybe I could list areas that have major organizations for the conservation of loggerheads and sea turtles in general?--TimHAllstr (talk) 22:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed: Rather than draw attention to one specific organization or counter with numerous specific organizations - best to generalize here and remove Fripp Island and replace with "volunteers" - perhaps add "around the world" if that is the case.--JimmyButler (talk) 04:21, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You rely almost exclusively on US sources, so Raccoons are the primary predators of loggerhead nests lacks credibility since these mammals do not occur in most of the turtle's range
  • Almost 45% of the Mediterranean juvenile population has migrated from the Atlantic — doesn't make sense
What part of that statement is confusing? I'll try to fix it, but it makes sense to me. 45% of the juveniles residing in the Mediterranean came from the Atlantic meaning they weren't born in the Mediterranean but reside there for a portion of their lives. Does that make it clearer? Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 02:01, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there any differences between the subspecies other than average size?
  • The Spotila book resource that is currently in my possession mentioned something about genetic differences, but the book was very vague and confusing in its description. I will work on finding more info regarding this.--TimHAllstr (talk) 23:51, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Up to 40% of nesting females have been recorded to show wounds believed to come from shark attacks — evidence? The source appears to be just for US and Canada.
The source is named Turtles of the US and Canada. It does not just give information on the sea turtles based only in this area. It gives information on the species as a whole because it is often found around the United States and Canada.--TimHAllstr (talk) 00:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Artificial lighting threatens loggerhead hatchlings, contributing to thousands of deaths per year. — evidence for this outside Florida, the only source given?
Fixed added a new reference that generalizes the information instead of referring only to Florida.--TimHAllstr (talk) 23:37, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only the US and Australia are quoted as having national conservation laws. Don't South Africa, India or any of the other countries have legislation? A quick search found this for example
  • What's the Cartegena Convention? Red-linked and unexplained.

Another read through later perhaps, but there seems to be a tendency to generalise from local studies to apparently global claims. This is more like Loggerhead turtles - a US perspective. There's no indication you've even looked at sources like this or this Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:42, 25 May

copyedits by Jimmy Butler for style and me for links, I'm sure some of the other scientists have articles too Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:35, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We apologize for the US based article. Naturally, US-based sources have been the most readily available for us since we are a class from the US. I will work to make the article more worldly.--TimHAllstr (talk) 22:21, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Having said that, in the days of the internet, non-US sources are readily available, even if you restricted yourself to just English language publications. You have to make a conscious effort to write from a global perspective, it's too easy to produce an unbalanced article which looks fine to your compatriots but has glaring omissions to non-Americans. When I wrote Red-billed Chough, I was having to dump masses of UK-based research whilst scouring the remoter corners of the internet to find foreign and non-English sources. Despite the tone of my comments, I'm not unsympathetic to this article, but I'll wait now to see how it develops during FAC before deciding whether or not to support. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing issues: While the sources themselves seem on the whole to be OK, there are numerous problems relating to formatting and access.

  • What is the basis for listing some sources under the "Reference" headings, but not others?
References are now divided into Footnotes and bibliography similar to the bog turtle article. Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 21:37, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some of the citations in the "Notes" section omit publisher details. See, specifically, 19, 59, 60, 61
  • Fixed these occurrences. Will screen for more. --TimHAllstr (talk) 22:45, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It seems that some numbers have changed. For above, read 19, 60, 61 and 62. For 60, the magazine (EcoHealth) and other details (issue, date, ISSN etc) should be added. For 61, the year 2005 should be added to September 18, and Chicago Tribune should be italicised. For 62, add Marine Turtle Newsletter and the year, 2007. Brianboulton (talk) 22:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some online citations are missing retrieval dates
    • Ref 64. needs a retrieval date
Fixed, retrieval date added. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 02:02, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The format of citation 41 is non-standard (publisher's name given first).
  • Italics: where the source is a print journal or newspaper the name should be italicised, otherwise not. Check throughout for consistency in this.
  • 39: Is "Marine Ecology" a journal? If so you should give details such as volume and issue number, and a page reference, to enable the article to be traced. Similar point with 47 ("The Journal of Experimental Biology")
  • The links to 6, 12, 25 and 31 all seem to be problematic. In each case I got the "could not find" message.
Strange, the links work fine for me. They all happen to be NOAA sites. Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 20:45, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am still getting a "broken" message on each of these. Brianboulton (talk) 22:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
6, 12 and 31 work for me but 25(http://www.coastal.edu/cmws/projects/turtles/anatomy.html) says Not Found: The requested URL /cmws/projects/turtles/anatomy.html was not found on this server. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 22:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed - 6, 12 and 31 have now been webcited for reliability. Link 25 has been removed. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 01:06, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Access to 33, 53 and 55 appears to be restricted. Do these require subscriptions? If so this should be stated, using the (subscription required) template.
DoneVancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 20:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note 63: the link goes to an unheaded page in handwriting. The internal link marked "Home" does not work, so how can the validity of this source be established?
  • The Spotila book is listed twice in the References section
  • The Peaker book details include "pp. 231", presumably referring to its pages total. No other books have this information; suggest delete.
  • The Wynne book details include a page range 104–05, yet in the notes there are citations to pages outside this range. You don't need to include this page range here, and I suggest it is deleted.

Brianboulton (talk) 14:16, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Read through about half of the article, and most of it looks quite good to me, though I'm not that knowledgeable in comprehensiveness or sourcing standards for species articles. I did find the following items, which are all minor:

  • "with the combination Caretta caretta being first introduced in 1902 by Leonhard Stejneger." The word "being" is making the sentence a bit awkward to read, and can safely be removed without harming the meaning.
Done Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 22:22, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • A further source comment: references 27 and 73 should have the all caps in their titles removed.
Done Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 22:22, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Distribution: no need for multiple Arabian Peninsula links in a paragraph. One is enough.
Done Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 22:22, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 22:22, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • I've asked this elsewhere, but is "alt=Map of the range of the loggerhead sea turtle" satisfactory for alt text?
  • In the sentence "The English common name loggerhead refers to the animal's large head," should "loggerhead" be put in quotes rather than italics?
Yeah, it was more of a question on my part...not sure.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 14:32, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it should be italics; it doesn't seem to fit under any criteria listed at Wikipedia:ITALIC#Italic_face. Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 14:54, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Two subspecies are recognized: C. caretta gigas in the Indian and Pacific Oceans, and C. caretta caretta in the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.[5]"--I'd be interested to see what else the source says about this. What are the differences, do they account for the large range in size and weight, why were two subspecies recognized?
  • "Temperatures from 27–28 °C (81–82 °F) are best suited for nesting females.[12]"--this wording makes it sound like the water changes temperature for the female (I think it should be reworded to most suitable.)
More minor things to follow, nice work.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 03:50, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More comments

  • "The return journey to the natal beaches in Japan was long suspected, although the trip would cross unproductive clear water with few feeding opportunities.[19]"--awkward wording, I think "was" and "would" may have to be changed.
  • I think the Evolutionary history section should explain why two subspecies are recognized (or maybe that can be done in the Taxonomy section and here it could be discussed how the subspecies came about).
No, it is more of a taxonomic issue, I was just wondering if you could turn up anything about how the differences in the two populations came about.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 12:49, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We have that already in the evolutionary history section. Last paragraph. Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 15:14, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This isn't a comment, just a compliment: I really like the info on sexing juveniles...good stuff.
  • "Escalation typically follows four steps"--Do the first two steps have specific names? The third and fourth are sparring and separation...right?
  • "Along the southeastern coast of the United States, the raccoon (Procyon lotor) is the most [...]"--Can't raccoon be linked in the first paragraph of this section?
More to follow later, kinda busy. Sorry this is so broken up (maybe its easier that way...I don't know).--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 20:34, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • On my browser there is a huge (20+ cm) white space before the map. Can this be fixed?
  • What browser are you using, this problem has not appeared to me. Are the synonyms in the taxonomy box expanded? I included a clear template before the picture in distribution because the list of synonyms was covered up by it and you couldn't read them. Also, do you have javascript enabled? Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 14:31, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done -I think that I fixed this. I have tested it with Safari, Firefox, Internet Explorer and Chrome and it was okay before. I assume the issue was not having javascript enabled which expands the synonymy's on the right column, an issue in all browsers. Anyhow the clears have now been removed from the top of the article so excess spacing cannot appear. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 15:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The images seem to be scattered at random. I would suggest either right-aligning all, or alternating left/right
  • Taking the red link off Cartagena Convention doesn't actually explain it. Can we have a few words to clarify?

Comment

Much better.

more comments

  • "Female-female aggression is uncommon, especially in marine vertebrates. However, it is common among loggerheads."--can these two sentence be merged?
  • "In Australia, the introduction of the red fox (Vulpes vulpes) by English settlers in the 19th century lead to significant reductions in turtle populations. In one coastal section in eastern Australia during the 1970s, predation of turtle eggs destroyed up to 95% of all clutches laid."--are these sentences talking about all turtles, or just the loggerhead?
  • "Up to 40% of nesting females have wounds believed to come from shark attacks.[38]"--the sentence before this was talking about loggerheads in the southeast U.S. ... is this sentence referring to those turtles as well?
  • "Trematodes of the family Spirorchiidae inhabit"--can Spirorchiidae be linked (or red-linked if the page doesn't exist)?
  • "Other food items include sponges, corals, sea pens, polychaete worms, sea anemones, cephalopods, gastropods, barnacles,"--you've already said "gastropods" in the previous sentence.
  • " [...]with their large and powerful jaws.[6][37] Large, projecting scale points[...] "--"large" repetitive.
Alright, I'm through "feeding."--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 00:48, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Separation into subspecies is based on color, body size, number of neural and peripheral bones and number of marginal scutes.[8]"--any info on which subspecies has the different characteristics (i.e. which is larger, what are the differences in color)?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:40, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This information is from the Marquez reference.

    The subspecific status should be re-assessed because the two described subspecies, one for the Pacific, Caretta caretta gigas and the other for the Atlantic, Caretta caretta caretta, are not valid in the light of available information, since they were based on characters showing considerable variation, principally colour, body size, number of neural and peripheral bones and number of marginal scutes (caretta 12-12, gigas 13-13). Most authors now recognize caretta as a single polymorphic species.

    Based on this information I don't think it is notable to mention the separate subspecies. Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 13:13, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Than, I would put in that the current taxonomic organization is debatable.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 13:55, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done mentioned that it is debatable but most recognize it as a single species.--TimHAllstr (talk) 14:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

more comments

  • "During this seasonal migration, juvenile loggerheads have the ability to use both magnetic cues and visual cues.[51]"--this sentence is separated by quite a bit of text from the migration its talking about. Any way to rearrange this to make it clearer.
  • "if one aid is not available, the other suffices.[51] Female loggerheads first reproduce"--these ideas don't seem to flow...perhaps a paragraph reorganization would help.
  • Same thing with the next few sentences about average and maximum length.
Sure. I was confused by these sentence in several ways: "Nesting loggerheads have a straight carapace length of 70–109 centimeters (28–43 in). Seventy centimeters is the minimum size for breeding, although not all loggerheads begin breeding at this size. Therefore, carapace length is not a reliable indicator of sexual maturity.[52]" First, you say previously that the loggerhead reaches "a length range of 70 to 95 centimeters (28 to 37 in)," which leads me to believe that nesting loggerheads are somehow bigger than non-nesting loggerheads. Second, the wording of the second sentence may throw some readers off. It seems like your saying that 70 cm is the smallest size at which a loggerhead is ready to breed but that they may be bigger than this when they start breeding. Well...we already knew that because you gave us a range of lengths. Third, its placement (or at least its wording) is somewhat awkward. Are the readers to assume that loggerheads reach this length at "ages 28–33" or at "ages 17–30" or at "unknown" ages?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's a little better, but why is this phrase even necessary: "however not all loggerheads begin breeding at the minimum size?" Also, I am still unsure if the length correlates to the age in any significant way.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 21:57, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mating-induced ovulation is a bit much to grasp. Is there an article (or perhaps a heading on an article) that can be found that explains this?
Okay, I think it should be clarified a little in the article.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 13:02, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Clarified Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 15:19, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Two hypotheses account for this correlation"--the word "account" isn't correct here..."explain" might be better.
  • "Multiple paternity is possible due to sperm storage. The female can store sperm from multiple males in her oviducts until ovulation.[60]"--This needs to be moved next to the other text concerning this.
  • I think the age of sexual maturity should either be moved to the reproduction section or repeated in the reproduction section.
  • "The prolong time required for loggerheads"--prolonged?
  • "On developed beaches, nest are often clustered around tall buildings"--nests?
  • "They uncover them, count the eggs, and, if necessary, relocate them for protection from threats such as high spring tides and predators. The nests are checked daily for disturbances."--suggest merging
  • The last section "Conservation efforts" needs a link to the Threatened species and/or Endangered species article. If there already is a link the this/these in another part of this article, ignore this comment.
Great work guys. Fix these last few things and I'm a supporter.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 14:45, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for all support and comments.--TimHAllstr (talk) 20:48, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: this article needs a MOS review (perhaps Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) will do it?). I also wonder about WP:OVERLINKing-- do we really need links to commonly known places like South Africa or Central America? Pls ping me when MOS has been checked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Thank you! Vancemiller (talk · contribs · count · email) 20:34, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:05, 4 June 2010 [7].

SMS Helgoland

Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk) 11:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Helgoland was a German battleship built before World War I, the ship saw extensive service throughout the war and played a central role in the Wilhelmshaven mutiny. This article is comprehensive; it includes information from a widely known (at least in the field) diary of a sailor from the ship as well as the recently published book (Feb. 2010) by Gary Staff. The article was thoroughly copyedited by Dank during the A-class review in March of this year. I look forward to any and all comments aimed at improving the article and helping me to ensure it meets the criteria for a featured article. Thanks in advance to all reviewers. Parsecboy (talk) 11:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is the country of origin of the File:SMS_Helgoland_bridge.PNG ? Fasach Nua (talk) 14:40, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can we get a better source than "Behind the German Veil, Dodd, Mead & Co., New York, 1917"? Fasach Nua (talk) 15:31, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see what the problem with this source is; it establishes that it's PD in the United States, which is all we need. I have not come across the image anywhere else. Parsecboy (talk) 15:32, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
wp has a clear m:mission, the FAC requires appropriate licensing of media, the description implies it was first published in the US, yet the licensing does not, and I would like this contradiction removed. 21:53, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand the 1923 cut-off. The 1923 cut-off doesn't require a document to be published first in the United States before anywhere else in the world, just that it be published at some point before 1923 in the US. This image demonstrably meets that requirement. Parsecboy (talk) 22:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the image was deemed fine by Jappalang when the class article went to FAC back in July 2009. Parsecboy (talk) 22:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The licensing and sourcing are correct. Pre-1.1.1923 publication applies to both works first published in the US and abroad (see here). I don't see anything contradictory in the description or license. Эlcobbola talk 19:57, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—no dab links, no external links. Ucucha 16:52, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. From other A-class reviews, we know that not everyone is on board (aboard?) with "(SMS is the German equivalent of the British HMS.)" That was my addition; I didn't think we should expect the general reader to know what SMS means, but there were no objections to the way it was done in SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand: "SMS Erzherzog Franz Ferdinand (German: "His Majesty's ship Archduke Franz Ferdinand") was ...". We don't have to translate the ship name here, but most readers won't know the reference (and may stumble on the alternative spelling of the archipelago), so we could take the opportunity to link it, if this is agreeable to everyone: "SMS Helgoland (German: "His Majesty's ship Helgoland"), the lead ship ...". - Dank (push to talk) 17:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On 17 January, Ingenohl ordered Helgoland to go back to the docks for more maintenance. It wasn't until 20 January that the ship successfully entered the drydock, owing to difficulties ...": I'm not making the edit because it's just a personal preference, but I recommend something tighter, maybe "... for more maintenance, but she didn't enter the drydock until three days later ...". - Dank (push to talk) 04:45, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did they arrive in Kiel on 1 Mar? - Dank (push to talk) 04:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The paragraph that begins "At 20:15" needs some attention to the units. In particular, I just don't see "in" as a unit very often because it looks like, well, "in"; please use "inch" unless it's the second unit in a conversion. - Dank (push to talk) 04:59, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, I'm too involved to support here, but I gave it another run-through and I'm happy. - Dank (push to talk) 14:09, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per usual disclaimer; I prefer not to wear so many hats (it gives me a big head!), but the reviews aren't exactly piling in. Authoritatively referenced, doesn't seem to me to omit anything, an interesting narrative, and adequately copyedited (grin). - Dank (push to talk) 04:00, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment regarding File:War Ensign of Germany 1903-1918.svg: I very much doubt R-41 was alive in 1903 and designing flags for Wilhelm II. As the creator of a mere derivative, R-41 is not the rights holder and cannot, therefore, release it into the public domain. That's not to say this isn't public domain, only that the license information needs to be corrected accordingly (e.g. {{PD-Flag-Germany}} - not a redlink on the Commons). Эlcobbola talk 19:57, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wow, I've been through about a dozen German warship FACs that all used that image over the past year and a half or so, and that has never been caught. That deserves a barnstar or something. I've replaced the license tag on the image per your suggestion. Parsecboy (talk) 21:24, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • Some of the books lack publisher locations
  • I notice that a couple of quite old books (Herwig, 1980 and Schwarz, 1986) have 13-digit ISBNs. The 13-digit format was introduced in 2007 which suggests you are using more recent editions of these books. The dates should be adjusted accordingly.
  • Scheer book: "Ltd" requires a capital
  • What is the function of the (1) after the title of the Staff (2010) book?

Otherwise, all sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 23:17, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But... Non-sources issue. The parenthetical note (German: "His Majesty's Ship Helgoland") is extremely confusing because, I believe, the wording is English. It is the English rendering of the ship's German title and therefore should read "(English: His Majesty's Ship Helgoland)" Brianboulton (talk) 23:17, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Why is the main armament listed as 12-inch in the infobox when everything else is metric?
  • The diagram of the Raid is illegible, please blow it up to 300px to make it readable.
  • Define or link AP
  • Was she coal or oil-fired? A sentence about their fuel storage would answer this.
  • Why did the ships not sail from Wilhelmshaven on 24 October if the mutiny didn't start until 29 October.
  • Directly behind Thüringen? How? At sea, docked, what?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 05:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • How many boilers did she have?

Support. Karanacs (talk) 16:32, 3 June 2010 (UTC) Comments, leaning toward support. [reply]

  • Why did the crews mutiny? I know very little about WWI, and I'd never heard of the mutiny. From reading this blurb, it sounds like the Armistice was planned, and the sailors mutineed - did they not want the war to end?
    • They wanted to survive to the end of the war; their commanders wanted to use them as cannon fodder in the hope that it would weaken England after the war. I'll add something to make this a little clearer. - Dank (push to talk) 15:59, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The following day, a sailors' council took control of the base. That same day," - Just a bit confused, was "that same day" the 5th or 6th?

Karanacs (talk) 15:55, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 21:31, 1 June 2010 [8].

Halkett boat

Nominator(s):  – iridescent 21:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Viewed one way, Peter Halkett was a visionary genius a hundred years ahead of his time who was one of the first to see the implications of the newly-invented invention of rubberised fabric, and had his designs gained wider acceptance Titanic would have had a happy ending as Jack ferried Rose to safety on one of the cheap and tightly-stacked collapsible lifeboats stored on every ship. Viewed the other way, Peter Halkett was an English eccentric of the type the 19th century produced so many of, with a crackpot vision of top-hatted Victorian gentlemen and their trusty flat-capped servants navigating their way up the Northwest Passage on a flotilla of umbrella-propelled cloaks.

This one's short, but as far as I'm aware it covers everything that has been written on the topic. The Arctic expeditions of the early 19th century are an unfashionable and almost forgotten piece of history today; while a lot of books on the period mention Halkett boats in passing, to the best of my knowledge Stephanie Pain's 2009 paper and the 1955 Beaver article are the only pieces published in reliable sources that cover Halkett's designs in detail. Credit to Malleus for a lot of thankless chopping and cleaning of the original article. – iridescent 21:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pre-emptive responses: (1) I'm aware that Canadian Arctic is slightly inaccurate as some of these territories hadn't yet been formally incorporated into Canada, but I assume people will understand what's meant. I really don't want to go down the "Northern Lower Canada, Rupert's Land, the British Arctic Islands and the undefined territory between present-day Nunavut and Alaska" route. (2) No, there's no way to write a "legacy" section. Modern inflatable boats were introduced in the Second World War, but there's nothing to suggest that their designers on either side were aware of Halkett. (3) No, I can't find a source for how much they cost and how many were made; I can find catalogue entries for them but nothing giving a price, and I suspect they were built to order and priced according to specifications. – iridescent 21:30, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Spurred on by the successful testing of the boat-cloak" - before this the article states that testing had to be abandoned?
It was successfully tested in the Thames. The seaworthiness tests in the Bay of Biscay were abandoned due to the calm weather, but those were just Halkett testing its limits—it was never intended to be used in open seas (see the footnote). – iridescent 22:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"John Franklin bought one to take on the ill-fated 1845 expedition in which the entire expedition party of 129 men and two ships vanished.[11] Franklin saw the boats as so essential to travel in Canada that he gave this boat to Sir George Simpson, Governor-in-Chief of Rupert's Land, for use in his travels in the region.[12][note 2]" - did Franklin not go on the first expedition, or did he change his mind and give the boat away before he went?
Franklin was planning his forthcoming expedition, and had the boat in readiness. Simpson had been appointed Governor of Rupert's Land (modern central Canada), and Franklin gave him the boat to make it easier to get around between the isolated outposts of his territory. Franklin ordered a replacement from Halkett, which was delivered in time for the Franklin expedition. – iridescent 22:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to clarify that then. I had to read the sentence a few times to work out what I thought was happening, and I still wasn't clear until I read the above. Parrot of Doom 22:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Does this work? – iridescent 22:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Keen to find out what had become of the ships and men of Franklin's expedition, in 1848 the Royal Navy sent an expedition led by John Richardson and John Rae to search for the party, equipped with a Halkett boat provided by the government" - this makes it appear as though "the party" was equipped with a Halkett boat.
Not sure how to word it. (Both parties were in fact equipped with Halkett boats.) "An expedition led by John Richardson and John Rae, equipped with a Halkett boat, to search for the party" to me reads like the boat was going to do the searching, not Richardson and Rae. – iridescent 22:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How about this? Parrot of Doom 22:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, fine – iridescent 22:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the Stromness Museum? Parrot of Doom 22:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Stromness, astonishingly enough. I don't want to say "The Stromness Museum in Stromness" if I can help it, it looks daft. – iridescent 22:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd put Orkney on it then. Parrot of Doom 22:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done – iridescent 22:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images The article seems overloaded with images, perhaps File:Franklin's_canoes_in_gale.jpg could be dropped, I don't think it conveys any information, and the text would not be drowned in a sea of images if it was dropped. (licensing of images is fine) Fasach Nua (talk) 22:19, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That one's disposable if anyone else objects to its being there—if removed, it will leave a long stretch with no images (which is part of the reason I added it). I'd vehemently object to removing any of Halkett's drawings, all of which show things I'd consider essential to understanding the concept of Halkett boats and how they differ from both the standard rubber dinghy and the traditional kayak. – iridescent 22:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I really don't want this to look like a pile-on fan support, but when I reviewed this recently at GAN my first thought was "Why is this here? Why isn't it at FAC?" Malleus Fatuorum 22:37, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comment. Generally looks good. It certainly is extremely concise. You mention that several sources refer to them "in passing". I looked at one - Arctic hell-ship (2007), and it indicates their use in the 1850-52 voyage of the HMS Enterprise, and some comments about them leaking (i agree - in passing). This would seem a higher quality source than the New Scientist article and perhaps slightly more detailed in some respects. It also gives a different name to the leader (richard Collinson) to the 1848 expedition (John Richardson and John Rae), suggesting these are two separate expeditions that used the boats, and could then be covered separately in the article. In terms of its reception by coleagues and the Inuit, the remarks by Sherard Osborn in The Polar regions: or a search after Sir John Franklin's expedition might be worth considering. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:50, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arctic Hell-ship does mention them, but it seems all to be fairly trivial mentions, other than the brief anecdote about one capsizing in a storm—I can't see anything that adds any technical detail as to the design. I was aiming for a concise narrative arc (Peter Halkett grows up listening to tales of Franklin's 1819–22 disaster from his father → he resolves to think of a way to stop it happening again → he invents the inflatable boat → Franklin uses it and dies anyway → Rae uses them successfully and proves the concept is viable). I don't really want it to go down the List of expeditions that were equipped with Halkett boats route if it can be avoided; there were quite a lot of expeditions in this period, many of which would have taken one, and thus I've tried to limit it to those (Franklin, Rae, Bellot) who fit into that broader narrative. There's also an issue in that in the 1850s Thomas Hancock and Charles Goodyear invented the rubber dinghy (they seem to have come up with the idea independently), which although it differs from the fabric-based and sharp-prowed Halkett boat is the same basic concept; thus, unless it specifically mentions Halkett's name it's impossible to say whether "Foo was equipped with an inflatable boat" refers to a Halkett boat or not.
  • I think the Sherard Osborn quote has a period charm, and if there were space I'd definitely include it in a quote-box to provide background colour (I don't think it adds enough to make it worth sacrificing one of Halkett's drawings to free up space, though), but I'm not sure there's really anything usable in it as a source, other than as another source for the fact that yes, people really did use the things.
  • I've no concerns about Stephanie Pain as a reliable source; she's a respected writer on the history of science and engineering (and Associate Editor of New Scientist). NS isn't always reliable at the time of printing—because they're a weekly when all the other major science periodicals are monthly, they sometimes cut corners to be first with the news—but they're scrupulous about corrections, and their broad cross-disciplinary readership means that errors generally get spotted and fixed very quickly. – iridescent 09:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Taking pts in reverse: 1. sorry, i didn't want to suggest i had any issues with NS as a source, only that a scholarly book if available is perhaps superior. 2. Agree about the period charm, but that the pictures are more important. 3. While a long "List of expeditions that were equipped with Halkett boats" would be undesirable, i think you are in no danger of succumbing to that problem :-) But I do think mentioning their repeated use in hte post-Franklin voyages is worth half a sentence or so. In this particular csae there's no danger of dinghy / Halkett confusion as they are identified by that particular name in the text. I'll have a shot perhaps. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:34, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing and referencing: An irritating feature of the "cite journal" template is that, unlike "cite book", it reveals page numbers unadorned, without explanation as to what they are - as for example, in refs 2, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. To overcome this, and to achieve consistency with other formats, it is necessary to enter the page field in the cite journal as "page= p. xxx". That way, page numbers are properly identified. I have done this with the Dickens ref, perhaps you could do the rest?

Otherwise, sources look good, no further issues. Brianboulton (talk) 10:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done – iridescent 17:12, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images okay: all verifiably in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 10:53, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Another short and interesting read that covers most of the bases on this little innovation, and what an innovation! The sight of the umbrella held tightly in the boater's hand to catch the wind is hilarious! Yet it worked. I have to wonder now why special forces have to lug around inflatable boats when they could be wearing these (heh). Jappalang (talk) 10:53, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is something I've wondered as well. Halkett was working with canvas and rubber; with modern synthetic fabrics, I'm not sure why one couldn't make boats small enough to fit into a pocket. The principles are still sound; Halkett would certainly recognise the Sevylor boats still in use today. – iridescent 11:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support on 1(a,d,e), all of 2, and 4 by an odd name. Some comments:

  • "Halkett boat refers to two types of lightweight inflatable boat designed by Lt Peter Halkett (1820–1885) during the 1840s."—possible use-mention problem. The replacements I can think of, however, seem worse, and I think it's less of a biggie here because the article is about two boat types so named.
  • "Peter Halkett was in the 1840s a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy."—feels like it lacks commas ("Halkett, in the 1840s, a ...") or like in the 1840s belongs at the end of the sentence.
  • Dates are consistent Day Month Year in text. There's Day Month Year accessdates and ISO style publish dates in the refs. It's good and consistent, but I think just using one format for all the refs would be even better (and I think just using Day Month Year all around the article would be ideal).
  • I'm not a big fan of "whilst" (as opposed to "while"). I'm motivated there by Tony1's 1a userpages, though, and don't think it's wrong in any way.

Otherwise, article looks good. I'm simply not familiar enough with the boats to speak for the article's completeness or accuracy. However, the body and lead look crisp and good, the subject is explained deeply and quite well (especially for the length), and new people are briefly and nicely introduced, so I'll partial-support as above. If I ever made a product, I'd take "although in constant use for upwards of six weeks on a rocky coast it never required the slightest repair" and "ought to form part of the equipment of every expedition" as one hell of a compliment; given that, it's a shame the boats were ultimately just abandoned. --an odd name 03:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Answering in order:
  • Regarding the lead, I think "Halkett boat refers to" is correct (as opposed to "Halkett boats refer to"). They refer to two different designs, both called "Halkett boat". As there are other boats of a similar design (most obviously the Sevylor boats I mention above) it needs to be clear that it refers to the specific designs of Halkett, not the general type.
  • I can see no obvious way to reword "Peter Halkett was in the 1840s a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy". "Peter Halkett, a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy in the 1840s, was…" would merge two already-long sentences. It needs to get across the specific point that he designed them during his service in the Navy.
  • I always use ISO-style dates in refs, and one of the user-friendly ones in the text itself. My think is (and always has been) that the references are one of the few things in an non-list article which someone could conceivably want to sort, and the ISO format dates make it much easier. It also makes it easier for bots to cope with; Wikipedia's bots can generally cope with varying date formats, but not necessarily our mirrors—and everything I do is done with at least half an eye on whether it will survive a migration to a possible Wikipedia II. (Both the MediaWiki interface and the WMF itself are clumsy botch-jobs handling a task they were never designed to cope with, and sooner or later one or the other will be replaced.)
  • I disagree with Tony over "whilst" (and with a lot of his misplaced formality section—utilize, for instance, is most certainly not a synonym of use). This is an article in British English on a British topic, and "whilst" is perfectly ordinary British English usage, not any kind of archaism or pretentiousness. – iridescent 19:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"In the 1840s Peter Halkett was a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy..." ? Johnbod (talk) 19:39, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I want to start that particular section with his name if at all possible; its purpose is to show why an English sailor who'd never lived in Canada should have (a) have an interest in the Arctic, and (b) be so interested in the design of portable boats. – iridescent 19:51, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 21:31, 1 June 2010 [9].

1910 London to Manchester air race

Nominator(s): Parrot of Doom 14:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A spiffing-eh-what-chap! footnote in the history of aviation, all reviewers are required to listen to "Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines" while reading this article. Parrot of Doom 14:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources: All sources look OK. It would be best to standardise the format of the ("Registration required") tag which is located differently in ref. 3 than elsewhere. Brianboulton (talk) 15:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure there's much I can do about that, all citations use templates. Parrot of Doom 16:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed, I think. Malleus Fatuorum 21:43, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  • One of the most enjoyable reads I've had lately. Structure, referencing and detail look fine. I get the subtlety about the format of the 'race' so fair enough about going back to the original wording in the lead.
  • As for "take-off", I'm still a bit dubious about the action being the same format as the noun, e.g. "take-off and landing" looks right but "He planned to take-off" doesn't. Can you just double-check the OED on that?
  • Quite correct, in my haste using WikEd I forgot to check each instance. The OED uses gives several variations as examples, but take-off seems the most appropriate. A search for "takeoff" just redirects to "take off" or "take-off". Parrot of Doom 13:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given you seem to be using words for figures under 10 elsewhere, "5 miles" should probably be "five miles"...
  • My one suggestion re. the excellent supporting materials is that the images could stand to be rendered larger, plus you could alternate left and right with the quote boxes, i.e. since you have Paulhan's quote on the left following his image on the right, why not do the same for Grahame-White? Anyway, jolly good show all round -- rather! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair point, I've rearranged the quote boxes. For images however, I prefer to use the standard thumb size, for small screens large images can create havoc. Thanks for the support. Parrot of Doom 13:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair enough, the portraits of the aviators are okay at the default size from where I sit. However I notice the lead image size is forced now to something much greater than default; the new one at night on the other hand looks really tiny as a standard thumb... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:01, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah that happened as the result of a discussion about the image licences, I uploaded a full size one and it rescaled accordingly. I think a slightly larger image is probably ok at the top as the contents box breaks things up, but lower down the text and quote boxes will end up squashing together. I'm not fussed about the nighttime image though, if anyone wants to make it bigger I don't mind. Parrot of Doom 08:11, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Images okay: the two portraits of the aviators are from the Bain Collection, which Commons have accepted to be in the public domain so far. The photo of the flight (and all Flight-copyrighted images in that issue) is in the public domain by virtue of publishing before 1923 (US) and corporate authorship (UK). A Commons gallery or category about this event could be generated from the drawings/photos in this issue of the magazine if anyone is willing to do so. Jappalang (talk) 09:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Pip, pip, tallyho, and all that. A fine read of these chaps' flights, as they flit into the wide blue yonder and outrace cars. Short but comprehensive and enjoyable article, nothing substantial to gripe about or to oppose on. Cheerio! Jappalang (talk) 09:27, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Very well written and nice to see 'aeroplane' being used ('aircraft' is the neutral international term that the aviation project has mainly settled on to avoid arguments, 'aeroplane' is entirely acceptable and that is indeed what they were called back then, it's the word 'plane' that causes the problems). Only one thing that I noticed, the site of Hendon is mentioned as 'what is now Hendon Aerodrome' if I read the context correctly. Hendon aerodrome is now the site of the Royal Air Force Museum London which has a hangar display dedicated to Grahame-White. You could probably squeeze that in somewhere ('See also' section?). Nice job. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 22:17, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for spotting the Hendon thing, I'll change it to "what is now Royal Air Force Museum London" or similar. I think the factory is probably best slotted into Grahame-White's article. Parrot of Doom 22:32, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I did make a concious decision to use aeroplane instead of aircraft, it suits the article more I think. Interestingly enough, lots of the sources used the term "airship", but I thought that would be a bit confusing :) Parrot of Doom 22:35, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hendon was my father's first RAF posting, probably not far off closing the station at that time. Airship?! These things were so new that they didn't know what to call them! I agree that the museum stuff should go in CGW's article if it is not there already (have not looked), the museum article does need expanding, too much to do! There is a standard template Template:Infobox aviation that could be used for the top of the article, it would make the image smaller but repeats the title, I was going to add it but saw the alt text which the template doesn't support, would like some clarification on the policy of alt text from the FA team, quite confusing at the moment (it's still in the check toolbox for instance). Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 22:59, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It shouldn't be too much trouble to add an alt text parameter to the aviation infobox template if you guys want to make use of it. I managed to add it myself to the aviator infobox template when I put Lester Brain up for FAC recently, and I gave up coding for a living years ago.... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:40, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We are lacking a template coder and updater in the av project at the moment, I am fairly clueless with them sadly. My understanding is that alt text is no longer an FA requirement, it appears from recent discussions that it never was, one editor slipped a line unnoticed into the guidelines somewhere and there you go. I'm all for accessibility and even thought of trying to produce some spoken articles, just need clarification on the matter. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's a grey area in practice; whether its adoption as a guideline was really legit or not, it seems enough of us have accepted or agreed with it to make it a de facto requirement. My suggestion is that if Parrot adds the aviation infobox here, that's impetus to add the requisite parameter to it so all images in the article consistently have alt text as they do now. When/if I have time I may just update the template anyway; having the parameter doesn't mean one is forced to use it... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:07, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That infobox doesn't seem to be a particularly well fleshed-out example, and wouldn't really add much at present. Perhaps there ought to be a new infobox, for pioneering achievements across the board? I may return to the subject of aviation, I'm sure I can find more things that these two got up to, however, I started this because it contained Manchester in the title :) Parrot of Doom 08:04, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 21:31, 1 June 2010 [10].

No Line on the Horizon

Nominator(s): MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:21, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone. I am here today in the sincere hope that the old adage "third time is the charm" proves true. This is the third trip to FAC for No Line on the Horizon, an album released by God Bono and the rest of the U2 gang just over a year ago. Both previous FAC nominations seemed to fail primarily as a result of the lack of reviews; what was brought up at those times (as well as the GAN and three peer reviews) has been addressed as well as my editing schedule on Wikipedia permits. In recent days it has undergone some copyediting (many thanks to Steve for his continual assistance to me on this), which I believe now means that the article meets all of the FAC criteria. Do you agree? Disagree? Just felt like dropping by to laugh at a badly written nomination? Whatever your reason for stopping by and reading this, I hope that the article proves an interesting and thorough read on the topic at hand. Cheers, MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:21, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is the point of File:NoLineU2Promo.jpg? Fasach Nua (talk) 08:30, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is the cover art; kind of necessary for it to be included in the article. It qualifies as fair use since it is being used to illustrate the album. The rationale for its use is covered on the file page. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 13:26, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fails Featured article criteria - Inappropriate use of non free content Fasach Nua (talk) 14:25, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Explain to me how it is an inappropriate usage of the image, and how it fails the FAC criteria. It meets the guideline regarding Non-free images at WP:NFCI: "Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item". Critical commentary on the cover art is present. So tell me: how is the use inappropriate, and how does it fail the FAC criteria? MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 15:30, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Guidelines are nothing more than advice on how to do things, the policy is much more important, the guideline refers to criteria one of the policy only. The image can be easily be described with text, and the reference you have given is more than an adequate description Fasach Nua (talk) 16:50, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know of any pop album that doesn't contain a FU low res image of the album cover, whether they are featured articles or not. However, I've never done a survey so I'd be happy to have them pointed out. Have you had this discussion before on album covers, either about a specific album, or more generally? I'd say it's fair to assume there's broad acceptance on their use. --Merbabu (talk) 22:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Really? In a FAC nomination for a music album, someone is objecting to an image of the album cover? If someone is going to review an album FAC nomination, the least they can do is review previous music FA articles to familiarize themselves with standards/things that are acceptable. The album cover is used to identify the subject of the article, just like in every other FA album article. The argument that the cover could be removed and simply be described with prose in its place can be made for any image ever made. These types of objections are not constructive to passing/failing this article. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 02:28, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I don't like Fair Use, but I do not see this as a reason to fail an FAC as fair use in this context has broad acceptance. Agree with Y2kcrazyjoker that this FAC is not the place to discuss the merits, or otherwise, of fair use images on album pages as it has wikipedia wide implications. There might be a relevant project page to do so. --Merbabu (talk) 02:33, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
After conversing with a few other users I can see the reasoning behind Fasach Nua's stance a bit more clearly, but I do (and will continue) to disagree with it. Yes, non-free content should be kept to a minimum, but there is a fine balance between reaching that minimum and going beyond it. I do not know of any FA article on a song or album which does not contain cover artwork. The common sense consensus appears to be that album artwork is an instance where fair-use images are acceptable, and I would say that their removal is definitely reaching well past that fine balance. I do not plan on removing the image on the article, but will leave it up to all of the other reviewers to determine for themselves if the inclusion of the album artwork in the article is acceptable or not. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:04, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Another voice in support of fair use of album covers for album articles. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:01, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. Hello from your neighbor FAC to the north. :) I took a quick peek at this article, and although it is well-referenced and the prose is readable, I have some concerns:

"In July 2006, U2.com confirmed that the band were collaborating with producer Rick Rubin, in southern France and Abbey Road Studios"

Sort of strange phrasing here. One place they were recording was a studio, the other was the southern half of a country. If the source gives a more detailed location for where they were recording, you should probably include it here. (If it doesn't, there's not much you can do).
Yes, this was something that I'd looked at before the last peer review. None of the sources that I could find said what the exact recording location in France was, so I think that we're unfortunately stuck on this point. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:04, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not much you can do here, then. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"An interview with Q revealed that will.i.am had worked with the band "

I suggest adding the word "rapper" in front of will.i.am so readers don't have to click on will.i.am to figure out who he is. Possibly most people interested in U2 will not have heard of him.
So added. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:11, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The band reworked it with Steve Lillywhite during a break in the recording with Eno and Lanois."

Is it explained earlier in the article who Steve Lillywhite is? Producer? Musician? The curious reader wonders.
At the end of the Rick Rubin section the article reads "[U2] subsequently employed Brian Eno and Daniel Lanois as principal producers and co-writers. Steve Lillywhite was also brought in to produce a few of the tracks." Do you think producer be slipped in there to clarify? MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:11, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't notice that. Struck. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

""Get on Your Boots" stemmed from a guitar riff The Edge created and recorded at his home."

I know who The Edge is, and you know who The Edge is, but please pity the poor reader who doesn't know, and explain who he is. "U2 guitarist" will do.
The Edge is introduced as the guitarist earlier in the article, during the Eno/Lanois sessions section ("In November 2008, guitarist The Edge noted that the band were scrambling..."); is the next mention far enough down that a second introduction is needed, or is it fine as is? MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:11, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've clarified that he plays for U2. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:23, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The sole FU image, File:NoLineU2Promo.jpg, appears to be correctly licenced, with appropriate FU rationale.

Cheers. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:11, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More later, as I have time. Firsfron of Ronchester 01:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments thus far, and for getting back to them so quickly! MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 04:44, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

  1. Nice opening, but does a band have a career? Perhaps that's just for musicians, but I'll stand corrected if I'm wrong. "since U2's inception in [year]"?
  2. WP:OVERLINK: "producer" (which is a chain-link from his name, anyway).
  3. ", but" twice in two sentences (one without the comma).
  4. "The band had planned"—rhyming jingle. "intended"?
  5. re-scheduled has a hyphen? Unsure.
  6. "many noted"—ah, see our new WP:Words to avoid guideline. Did they note it inside their heads or in public? Not sure. "Observed" is no good, since it's a kind of subjective call.
  7. How about a comma instead of "titled". Same later on.

I haven't looked further than the lead. It's not bad, but probably needs an independent copy-edit.

PS Over at the constabulary, they're a little jittery about 30 s sound-bites (WP:NFCC#2) when the album is still selling well. I've put on a turn there over their utter inflexibility, but beware of this fair-use claim. In any case, could you put it on the right-side under the quote-box? Tony (talk) 12:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments thus far; I've made changes to all of the points you've brought up about the lead. I did ask a few people if they would be able to do a copyedit before I nominated, but they seemed to think that the current prose is acceptable (and my eyes are so saturated from this article that I doubt I'd see anything no matter how hard I looked!). I think I'll leave the "Moment of Surrender" sound sample as is for the moment since it does comply with the length standards; if the length does become an issue then it shouldn't be too difficult to reduce it by a couple of seconds. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 16:20, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I think Tony is probably right in that certain sections will need a polish. All I really did was smooth out some of the bumpier parts, hopefully leaving few enough passages-with-issues that anything specific could be resolved during the FAC. I still stand by that, but if no-one's chipped in with a detailed prose review by the middle of the week—with specific, easily-actionable comments—I'll try to have another run through. One thing: I disagree with Tony's comment about the opening passage; IMO, it's more idiomatic to say "of U2's career" than "since U2's inception". Plus, the latter (very, very faintly) implies there was a longer gap, way back when. So whom do you listen to? Rock, meet hard place. :-D (I'll have a think on it and try to come up with a third way.) Steve T • C 17:54, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • There are an overwhelming number of (sometimes complex) tables and infoboxes in this article:
  • A too-long album infobox. You can make this shorter and simpler just by replacing those recording studios (which should be dealt with in the prose) with "June 2007 – December 2008 at various location".
I've removed this per your suggestion and placed the locations in the text. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 14:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Formats table—I suggest removing this entirely. Albums are normally released in a variety of formats; the way you have them listed here is like a shopping catalogue that would interest only the avid collector. At best it can be summarised in two more sentences of prose
Converted, though my prose may not be brilliant. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 14:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Review infobox—can also go, because the format of the table is such that you have to include to less-prestigious sources (Blender, RTE) at the expense of highly respected publications such as Time and The New York Times, due to the presence/absence of star ratings in the reviews. Ultimately, the infobox fails to summarise the critical opinion sufficiently.
I'm a little leery about removing this. The New York Times may be well known in America, but in the UK people will be much more likely to look at a source such as Blender when looking for reviews. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 19:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Track listing—jeez this is complicated. But I guess there is no other way. However, I can't say I've seen too many rock album tracklistings with a producer column...
  • Charts—Fine, but two things—what year did the singles chart? And certifications does not equate no of copies sold. It indicates no of copies shipped. So unless you have sources that explicitly mention "the album sold [so many] copies", don't include that column.
I've added the year to the singles table; when the fourth single is released, I'll add a year column to the left-side to make it easier. I disagree with your point on the certifications though. Most album articles I've looked at have them, and I think they are an important component relating to their reception. I will remove the Sales thresholds though if you think that it's addition is mistaken. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 14:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Succession boxes—And this improves the article how? (I generally have never seen the point of succession boxes—why the focus on #1 albums only, for one.) Also, unreferenced. Strongly suggest removal.
Removed. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 14:04, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Whoah, wait... succession boxes are part of a chain. If all other #1 albums have them this will be a broken link. So the argument shouldn't be whether there's a succession box on this article but whether either they should ALL go or whether they should ALL stay which is outside the scope of this review. Personally I like those boxes because they put an album in its immediate historical context. But, as I say, you have to argue for them all or for none at all. If the adjacent albums had succession boxes I would strongly argue that this album should have one too, otherwise we're messing with people who want to navigate through a chronological procession of album articles. --bodnotbod (talk) 12:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm not a lover of all succession boxes either, I oppose removing these, because it breaks the chain. It has to be a project-wide decision at WP:WikiProject Music or some such similar project to either do this or not do this everywhere. It can't be done on an article-by-article basis. Also, I don't think referencing should be an issue – it's up to each individual article to cite that it was a number one album on a given chart, and the boxes just link these 'distributed references' together. The maintainers just need to ensure that no album gets skipped, but they are pretty good at that. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If it's a Project-wide decision for them to be included and needs a Project-wide consensus to be removed then it seems that it is bigger than this one article. As a result I've restored it for now. Melicans (talk, contributions) 11:28, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ovelinking—street sign, stadium, set designer, limited editions. Audit throughout.
I've done a check and delinked a lot of stuff, but you may want to give it another quick sweep and see if there's anything else that should go. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 19:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stuff that should be linked, if possible—Jewish music, Hindu music, Sufi singing.
Linked Jewish and Hindu music. No article exists on Sufi singing that I can find. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 18:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Deupree blasted the band"—I doubt blasted is formal language here.
Altered to "Deupree called the cover...". MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 19:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add a descriptor to Midem. I didn't know what it was.
Added. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 14:04, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Replace a few of the "band"s with "group" to add variety.
I've combed the article and changed quite a few of "the band"s into "the group"s or "U2"s. Melicans (talk, contributions) 11:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 19:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • Just looking at the "Reception" section, I have several concerns. The box's review ratings are very U.S.-UK centric – 9 from them and 1 from Ireland. U2 is a band with global appeal, so what about the rest of the world? Continental Europe, Asia, South America? Even if you don't translate a review article, the stars graphics (or their equivalent) are easy to see.
I've added one or two reviews, but it's proving very difficult to find any in continental Europe and Asia with a star system. One that I did add from Spain was removed just a few minutes ago for that reason. Melicans (talk, contributions) 16:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
After a few days of searching I haven't found anything from continental Europe, Asia, or Oceania (foreign or English language) which assigns a star rating that can be included. I'm afraid it looks like we're stuck with what we've got. Melicans (talk, contributions) 15:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, here is a 3 star review by Suhail Kanuga at Blender India (clearly different from the five star review that the American Blender gave it). And here is a 7/10 review by Madeleine Chong of MTV Asia, based in Singapore and presumably different from any MTV U.S. review. Here is a 3 1/2 star review by Cameron Adams of the Herald Sun in Australia. Here's a 4 star review by Kevin Courtney of the Irish Times for another one from the home country. And even ones without star ratings, such as this review from the Jerusalem Post in Israel, can be used in the text discussion of critical reaction. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:27, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added in the MTV Asia and Herald Sun reviews and removed the Entertainment Weekly and The Guardian accordingly. I'm a little leery about adding in any others at the behest of major music publications like Rolling Stone, Q, or Mojo though. It's noted on the talk page (I think in the archives) that the present breakdown of reviews reflects the Metcritic average (72) fairly closely, and I'm hesitant about adding in lower ratings from less known sources at the expense of higher ratings from well known sources for that reason. There's now one review from Canada (Toronto Star), one from Australia (Herald Sun), one from Ireland ( RTE), one from Asia (MTV Asia), three from the United States (AllMusic, Blender, Rolling Stone) and three from the United Kingdom (Mojo, NME, Q). I think that is a fair breakdown given where the majority of reviews and music publications are based. Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Same for the text, very U.S. and UK centric.
  • Another review aggregation effort with a long history is the Pazz & Jop poll, long run by Robert Christgau. You can find the 2009 results for albums here (No Line finishes 32nd with 26 mentions out of some number of reviewers that I didn't quite see) and the results for singles here (a scattering of U2 mentions).
  • The article doesn't say how many copies have been sold in the U.S. so far; if you give first week sales, you should give the rest (artists with devoted followings often get big initial sales but then tail off quickly).
I'll do another search, but despite my best efforts previous this is one thing I've never been able to find. It seems near impossible to find sales data released by the companies. We can assume it's at least 1,000,000 since it was certified Platinum, but those figures are as of late last year. The only source I know of is mediatraffic.de, but that is considered unreliable. Melicans (talk, contributions) 12:34, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The most recent statistics I can find are an Associated Press report from October 2009 (one million copies); the only other I've seen is a Billboard article from September (991,000 copies). Melicans (talk, contributions) 13:54, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • This statement needs a source: "First-week sales in the United States were over 484,000, the band's second highest figures after How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb." (And not that Reuters story, see next item.)
I'll do a search, but as far as I'm aware Reuters is considered to be a reliable source. Melicans (talk, contributions) 13:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second part of this statement is not correct, despite whatever that sloppy Reuters story says: "It was their seventh number one album in the United States, placing them third behind The Beatles and the Rolling Stones for the most number one albums in the country.[81]" See Billboard 200#Most number-one albums which has U2 in a tie for 8th. I don't know where a good source is for the full ranking, but third cannot be correct; there were plenty of news outlets, including Billboard here, that mentioned Jay-Z getting his 11th and passing Elvis Presley's 10 for most by a solo act.
I've removed it from "placing them third" on; hopefully that will solve the problem. One error does not an unreliable source make. Melicans (talk, contributions) 12:53, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd double check the assertion about #1's ranking on the UK Album Chart as well.
  • In terms of the album's commercial appeal, the article seems to be overweighing the positive (stressing initial sales and chart placements) and underweighing the negative (overall sales and lack of a hit single). As a result, the last paragraph about low album sales, is jarring to read after all this touting of debut figures. It looks like this part of the article was written as the album was released and not revised. With albums, the race goes to the tortoise not the hare!
I've expanded the paragraph and moved it a bit further up so it flows right after the sales figures and such (also making it a bit more chronological); hopefully this makes it less jaring. Melicans (talk, contributions) 13:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Surely more people than just Bono were disappointed by the sales. What about the record company? What did Paul McGuinness say? What did other industry observers say?
Added in viewpoints of Clayton and expanded that of Edge. In the process of looking for quotes by McGuinness and industry observers. Melicans (talk, contributions) 13:30, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there any metrics for how much radio airplay the songs from the album got?
None that I've seen. Melicans (talk, contributions) 12:24, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the tour section, I strongly disagree with the use of 'supporting', in both the section title (just call it "360° Tour") and in the text. As the article alludes to briefly, the notion of a tour supporting an album is a vestige of an industry era gone by. Nowadays for established acts it's almost always the reverse: the artist will make a lot more money off the tour than they will off the album. If anything, making an album gives an artist an excuse to stage a big tour. Unless there's a source saying that when the tour visited certain countries there was a significant spike in album sales, this term should go.
Altered. Melicans (talk, contributions) 12:38, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the tour section, you should briefly mention what role the album's songs play in the show. A block of new songs opened the show in Europe, but that was broken up somewhat in the U.S., was it due to audience restlessness? Was the total number of 'new album' songs comparable to previous tours or were they de-emphasized a bit? And maybe mention "Moment of Surrender"'s role as the show finale.
As far as I've seen from building the Tour article the reason for this was never discussed by the band, but I will do another search (can't promise I'll find anything though).Melicans (talk, contributions) 12:24, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Looking more at the Tour section (I'd omit the "U2" in the section title, it's kind of redundant given the context), it should be focused on the tour's relationship to the album, not be a summary of the tour. Thus this sentence is irrelevant here: "The idea for the stage, with some initial design suggestions, had been proposed to the group by the set designer, Willie Williams, at the end of the Vertigo Tour in 2006.[95]" Instead, see if you can incorporate tour show reviews that assessed the role of the No Line songs, good bad or indifferent. Also, bring the section up-to-date: the tour grosses for 2009 are available, and how it ranked for the year. How many HD cameras were used for the Rose Bowl shoot is irrelevant here; instead focus on how many No Line songs are included on the DVD, and what role they played in this show (a somewhat diminished one, as I read the song listing and sequencing). Wasted Time R (talk) 13:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But U2 is part of the tour's full name; if we omit it from the section heading, then isn't that using an abbreviated name instead of the proper? Melicans (talk, contributions) 13:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Re-reading this idea, I think it is bordering a bit too far on the optimistic scale for the simple reason that so much of it seems to require a great deal of original research. I've been searching since this was posted close to a week ago, but I have found absolutely nothing on why the setlist order was changed, what role the songs play, or comparisons with previous tours. Any major adjustments that I could make along the lines suggested would be so far up the OR lane that it would be unreasonable to make them; the only exceptions are the current tour gross and the number of songs on the DVD. Melicans (talk, contributions) 03:26, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've done my best to integrate the position of the songs during the concerts in both legs (though it required the use of a primary source; see Steve's comments below). I can't see how I can do any more on this front without delving into OR. 2009 gross has also been added. Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:05, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't looked much at the other sections, but this is something. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on referencing: I'm a bit nonplussed by the citations style, which consist in most cases of a deadlink on the title, followed by an archive link to the item in question. I have not encountered this method before. What is the purpose of retaining the deadlink? I notice, incidentally, that the live link in Ref. 1 goes to a subscription service, which should be noted. Brianboulton (talk) 08:56, 10 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Previously the link on the title was removed, leaving only the archive link. However, we were told to reinstate them (can't find where now) because there are times when the archive website has problems/goes down (such as is occuring today as a result of maintenance on the website), and so the links were reinstated. The subscription link is now noted. Melicans (talk, contributions) 16:29, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've never seen this method of linking employed anywhere else; I wonder who told you it had to be done this way? I'm not making an issue of this, but I am curious. Brianboulton (talk) 20:16, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I honestly can't remember where it was, just that it hppened; it was a half-year ago at least, but I can't find it on my talk or in the previous FACs/PRs/GAN. It may have been on another user's talk page, but I can't recall where. Melicans (talk, contributions) 20:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Steve T • C Leaning support, pending resolution of source questions/issues (below). This is another nicely done album article from the nominator. Any comments, suggestions, prose and content issues I've covered in edit summaries and hidden comments while performing a light copyedit over the last week or so. All that remain from me are sourcing questions. EDIT: All subsequent strikes here were from me at 08:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC), Steve T • C

  • Image review:
    • File:NoLineU2Promo.jpg—album cover in infoxbox. Although I'm sympathetic to Fasach Nua's view above—indeed, I respect his/her position a lot—current consensus is that non-free album artwork is suitable for identification of the subject where a free version is unavailable. Wider community consultation is needed to overturn that seeming consensus; as such, individual FACs are not the place to have this discussion.
    • File:Riad Fez 1.JPG—claimed free CC licence by uploader/photographer; tagged appropriately.
    • File:U2 Way.jpg—uploaded with free CC licence from Flickr source; checked by Commons review bot and confirmed as tagged appropriately.
    • File:U2 360 tour stage Zagreb 2.JPG—claimed free CC licence by uploader/photographer; tagged appropriately.
  • Source review:
    • The way the {{cite news}} and {{cite journal}} templates render the references means that where the author= field is missing, they display the information in a different order (especially dates) to how they do when the field is filled. Where news and journal articles don't have an author, and where possible, I tend to fill the field with "Staff" to produce a consistent output. This isn't a deal-breaker, by the way, just a suggestion to make it more uniform.
      • Comment: This is a characteristic of the templates. The whole idea of using them is to just put in the relevant information about a cite and let the template writers worry about formatting them consistently. Even if the writers aren't doing the job well at the moment (to which I agree), inserting filler values like this distorts that process. And some news outlets will run an uncredited wire service report, which means inserting "Staff" is not always correct. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:41, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Indeed, which is why I only suggested it might be useful for some of them. Like I say, not a deal breaker. Steve T • C
          • Struck this as a preference thing. Steve T • C
    • Generic {{citation}} template should not be used in the same article as the {{cite news}}, {{cite web}}, etc. family of templates.
    • Duplicate cite, named ref "StarReview".
    • Named ref "rs032309" (current no. 100) shows archiveurl error, and the original link redirects to Rolling Stone's homepage.
      • Very strange; for some reason the archiveurl is missing from the template, but it is there in a previous revision from 9 May. I am having no difficulty in opening the page and displaying the content, so I have restored the archive. I believe that the reason it went down (and is continuing to do so on a second check) is because the Web Citation Archive is currently undergoing maintenance. Melicans (talk, contributions) 17:13, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Newspaper and magazine names, e.g. The New York Times and Billboard should be italicised. Some are, some aren't.
    • Current ref no. 8, "Calder, Simon (2007-11-10)": has no publication details.
    • To aid verification, it's worth going through the references to link to publications' first instances, instead of their second or third. Some examples: Hot Press, National Post, Mojo. Q. There are others.
      • Comment: This approach is very hard to maintain on an ongoing basis, since even a slight movement of text will often change what the first instance is. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:41, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • True, but after it's done, and once an article's structure is more stable (usually closer to the end of the FAC), it's very easy to keep on top of it. Post-FAC, the content won't be changing anywhere near enough to make it an annoyance to update. Steve T • C
    • Current ref no. 24, "The Superleague of Extraordinary Gentlemen, NME, 2009-02-23": what is it? A special edition of the magazine? A separate book?
    • Current ref no. 27, the film Brothers, isn't very useful for verifying that the song "Winter" appeared on the soundtrack. Is there anything better? If not, at least use the time= parameter to indicate "end credits" or something.
    • Current ref no. 29, "Exclusive interview with U2. NRJ. Canal+. 2009-02-23": what is it? A radio interview? Magazine pull out?
      • A radio interview. How should I specify it? Melicans (talk, contributions) 18:36, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Perhaps try:

          Bono; Edge, The; Clayton, Adam; Mullen Jr, Larry (2009-02-23). Exclusive interview with U2 (Radio broadcast) (in French). NRJ. Canal+.

          That was achieved by use of the {{cite video}} template, formatted thus:

          {{cite video|title=Exclusive interview with U2|people=Bono; Edge, The; Clayton, Adam; Mullen Jr, Larry|publisher=[[NRJ Radio|NRJ]]. [[Canal+]]|medium=Radio broadcast|language=French |date=2009-02-23}}

          Feel free to tweak to whatever your preferences are, obviously, but for me that rough format gives the reader enough information to work with. We can just live with the italics. Steve T • C
    • Current ref no. 30, "Long, Drawn Out Confession": the note about the subscription implies this is a video interview; it should probably say outright, and also include the names of the interviewer and interviewees.
      • It is a video, but I'm unsure of what you mean by "say outright". Do you mean a switch from {{cite web}} to {{cite video}}? If so, the title will then be in italics (which you noted concerns about above). Melicans (talk, contributions) 23:05, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • As above, I think in the interests of giving the reader enough information, we can live with the italics (indeed, I'm not even sure that would be incorrect in this case). So, you could format it as:

          Bono; The Edge; Clayton, Adam; Mullen Jr, Larry (2009-11-27). Long, Drawn Out Confession (Video). U2.com. Archived from the original on 2009-12-05. Retrieved 2009-12-05. Note: Subscription required for access.

          Obviously, I can't access it, so I don't know who's in it, so tweak the people= parameter accordingly (and that "Video" in the medium= parameter is just a suggestion too). Steve T • C
    • Current ref no. 42, "Absolute Radio interview with U2": not sure that should be italicised.
    • Current ref no. 51, "Download 'No Line'": why is there a [sic] template in there?
    • Current ref no. 54, "Le Grand Journal": what is it? A video?
    • Current ref no. 85, "Certificados U2": link to Associação Brasileira dos Produtores de Discos?
    • Current ref no. 94, "The Best Albums of 2009": probably no need to include the ISSN for Rolling Stone, especially as you haven't elsewhere.
    • You've got a lot of cites to primary sources to verify information such as when the album was released on particular formats; although these are (generally) accepted, it would preferable to find secondary sources where possible for as many as you can, especially the YouTube link that's used to confirm the band streamed one of their concerts over the service.
      • I went through in a previous FAC and substituted all of the primary sources I was able to then. I'll do another search now to replace ones that have been added in since that time, such as the YouTube cite. In some cases though, such as the "Long, Drawn out Confession" page, the "U2ube" videos by Clayton, and the development of Linear, this is impossible to avoid since other reliable sources simply don't cover the information mentioned. Melicans (talk, contributions) 03:09, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Fair enough. Subsequent reviewers might want to look at it, but it's not a deal-breaker for me. Steve T • C
    • Are we happy with radioandmusic.com as a reliable source?
      • Since it may prove to be contentious and I can't find any demonstration of reliability, I have removed it. This also unfortunately means that I have had to remove the certifications for Ireland and Italy, since neither IRMA or FIMI provide searchable databases that I can find. As a result I've switched out the Italy field in the charts for Mexico. Melicans (talk, contributions) 16:59, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • What makes everyhit.com a reliable source?
    • No comment on the webcite issue already raised by Brian; will await a response.
      • On second thoughts, it doesn't bother me one jot. Steve T • C
  • I won’t pretend this is a comprehensive list of source questions/issues; however, successful resolution (or rebuttal!) of these will make further examination easier, and hopefully all that'll I'll spot is the odd typo. Best, Steve T • C 10:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Struck some and left some replies. Steve T • C 08:25, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I switched to support above; all that remains are some minor points still in those hidden comments I left (renewed here). Otherwise, nice work. Steve T • C 22:33, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Many thanks for all your contributions and for your support; I'll try to address the hidden comments on the morrow if I can find anything for them (as it's close to midnight right now and I need to be up fairly early). Cheers, Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • I think that I've addressed all of the hidden questions now. They were definitely limited editions according to the source, so I've removed the word 'considered'. I've done several searches but haven't found any updated sales numbers as of yet that can be included. All that I've seen are forum posts, lists with it as one of the top-selling albums (albeit minus sales figures, even in the original press release by the IFPI), and stats by mediatraffic.de (which as part of the United World Chart is considered unreliable according to KWW, who has done a ton of work on WP:GOODCHARTS in the past). I was a bit confused by your last question regarding the size of the tour's stage; I've tried to clarify the sentence as best I can by explicitly referring to it as a concert stage and providing a reason for the design. Anything else that I could put in (such as the sound systems in each of the four legs, each individual system alone powerful enough for an arena concert, etc.) would probably be overly technical for an article on the album and is easily found on the Tour page. I hope this clarifies all three of your questions. Melicans (talk, contributions) 00:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - It may be worth noting some of the common musical motifs (however few) that appear throughout the record. For example, the electronic flourishes that Eno contributed to the record and were much ballyhooed prior to release. Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk) 13:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Have to admit I've read over it a few times because of past mentions on certain talk pages, and I think it's finally at a level where it's ready for FA. I applaud the efforts of MelicansMatkin for sticking with it and writing an excellent article. ceranthor 19:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments – Read the article from beginning to end, and I'm satisfied with most of what I saw, prose-wise. Did find a few minor issues, which I detail below:

  • Recording and production: "In January 2007, lead singer Bono said U2 intended to take their next album in a different musical direction to their previous few releases." Not saying that the grammar here is wrong, but a more common way of putting it would be "in a different direction from their previous few releases." Which should it be?
  • ""Winter" appears in the accompanying Anton Corbijn film, Linear and the 2009 war film Brothers." Hate to be pedantic on the punctuation, but there should either be another comma after "Linear" or none at all in the sentence. Personally, I don't know if one is needed.
  • In the Songs of Ascent section, I doubt if the Achtung Baby link is necessary, considering there's already one just a little bit up in the text. Interested readers will have likely already clicked on that one.
  • Formats: Some hyphens would be useful here in areas with "## page", such as "24 page".
  • Reception: Not a big deal at all, but I found it a bit odd that How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb has a link at the start of the fourth paragraph of this section when it's unlinked toward the end of the third. I would consider moving that one.
  • "had become well-known to the public from to its use in iPod commercials." Drop "to". Giants2008 (27 and counting) 00:34, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for your support! Melicans (talk, contributions) 00:35, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning to Support - I have not yet read the whole article, but what I've read is very good. Nice, tight prose and a wealth of information combined to produce an engaging and comprehensive read. Thanks for addressing all my concerns. Some specific comments so far:

  • In the lead: "Prior to the album's release, U2 said that Eno's and Lanois's involvement, as well as the band's time in Fez, Morocco, resulted in a more experimental record than their previous two albums. Upon its release, No Line on the Horizon received generally favourable reviews, although many critics noted that the album was not as experimental as previously suggested." Can U2's original statement be brought out more clearly? It seems like an incidental remark, so the connection is not immediate when we arrive at what the critics note at the end. The specific term that applied in this case (pre-release publicity, announcement or whatever) rather than "said" would help.
    • I've reworded it to the following: "Prior to the album's release, U2 announced that Eno's and Lanois's involvement, as well as the band's time in Fez, Morocco, had resulted in a more experimental record than their previous two albums in an attempt to revisit the transition between The Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby. Upon its release..." Is this a bit clearer? It's supported by ref 17, which references this statement in the "Sessions with Eno and Lanois" section. Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps some overlinking (noticed "birdsong")
  • 'At the end of the sessions, the band chose to include "White as Snow" to balance out the earlier, rockier tunes.[25] With the exception of this track, U2 had tried to keep the theme of war out of the album.' - we aren't told that "White as Snow" has a war theme until the later Composition section, so some context is needed here for the second sentence to be meaningful.
    • I think that's a byproduct from when that sentence in Composition was in Sessions. I've reworded it to "At the end of the sessions, the band chose to include "White as Snow", a song about a dying soldier in Afghanistan, to balance out the earlier, rockier tunes", though I know this now means there is some repetition. Since it is sourced below, I haven't bothered to use the ref again. Do you think the change helps to provide the needed context? Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The film originated from a U2 video shoot in June 2007, during which Corbijn asked the band to remain still while he filmed them to create a "photograph on film"; the band did not move but the objects around them did.[37] Impressed, the band believed that the online album listening experience could be enhanced with moving imagery. In May 2008, they commissioned Corbijn to create the film." - I found this confusing; the film originated in June 2007, yet it was not commissioned until May 2008. Would it be accurate to begin instead, "The idea for the film originated ..."?
  • "In February 2009, Bono stated that by the end of the year U2 would release an album consisting of discarded material from the No Line on the Horizon sessions. Bono labelled it "a more meditative album on the theme of pilgrimage".[9] Provisionally titled Songs of Ascent, it will be a sister release ..." - confusing, because we start the sentence with the impression that this is something that happened over a year ago, yet we segue into "it will be" and so forth.

PL290 (talk) 21:45, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I'll be fairly busy with work over the next week or so, so it may take me a bit longer than usual to respond to any further comments or concerns (though I'll do my best to get to them as quickly as possible). Melicans (talk, contributions) 04:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addressing my initial points. I've now read the whole article, and my remaining comments follow.
  • "'"No Line on the Horizon" stemmed from Mullen's experiments with different drum beats; Eno sampled and manipulated the patterns, and the rest of the band began to play over it.' - "it"?
  • In Reception, we're initially given the impression of terrific sales: "No Line on the Horizon debuted at number one in 30 countries, including Australia, Belgium, Canada, France, Ireland, Japan, the Netherlands, Portugal, the United Kingdom, and the United States.[82][83] As of June 2009 over five million copies had been sold worldwide.[84] Within one week of release, the album was certified platinum in Brazil, a record for the country.[85] In the United Kingdom, the album became U2's tenth number-one album, making them the fifth-most-successful act on the UK Albums Chart.[86] In the United States, it was U2's seventh number-one album; first-week sales exceeded 484,000, the band's second-highest figures after How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb." But suddenly the next sentence, which ends the paragraph, surprisingly and blandly states, "By October 2009, sales had increased to just over one million copies, the group's lowest in more than a decade." We then have a large paragraph about disappointing sales, ending with, "McGuinness believed that the conditions of the music market were more responsible for the low sales than any decline in U2's popularity." Can these two paragraphs be balanced out (or perhaps simply introduced by a summary sentence) to give the right overall impression from the start.
  • "Conflicting tenses: switches from past to present part way through "U2 staged a worldwide stadium tour ... the tour included ... concerts feature ... audience surrounds ... the concert stage is". It's akin to the forthcoming album problem (which has now been addressed above): planned in the past, but ongoing now. The switch surprises the reader with the realization that it's not something in the past being discussed after all. Probably needs recasting one way or the other.
    • I've switched it all to past tense (I think), since a good chunk of it can be spoken of in that way. The only exceptions are the mentions of which No Line songs are on the Tour DVD; I'm not sure whether to switch to the past tense here too, or if the current present tense is better. Melicans (talk, contributions) 23:40, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Within the Promotion section, you have a lone subsection, Singles. I share the author of that manual's dislike of these, but believe MoS is silent on the matter, so I will leave it with you to decide whether to do anything about it; if so, the choices appear to be (a) make Singles a bolded heading (which would exclude it from the TOC), (b) add an initial subsection heading to Promotion (if there is a meaningful one), or (c) just drop the Singles heading. I suspect you want it to appear in the TOC. As I say, I'll leave it with you to take any or no action on this point.

PL290 (talk) 17:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • There isn't a great deal of information under the singles heading anyways so what I have done is removed the heading and renamed the subsection to "Promotion and singles". I considered "Singles and promotion", but given that there is a great deal more info on the promotional aspect than the singles one, I figured Promotion probably has priority. I hope that this addresses all of your concerns! Melicans (talk, contributions) 23:48, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Note: I've left a note on PL290's talk page informing them that I have addressed their comments as it's been a few days since then, but the user has not edited Wikipedia since 25 May, a few minutes after leaving the above feedback. Melicans (talk, contributions) 02:13, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support My only niggle is whether the lead is an adequate summary of the article - feel free to make it a little longer, perhaps with a sentence or two more on critical reception / charting / commercial outcome. The article looks comprehensive, though, and well-sourced. Haven't heard this album - thought Moment of Surrender was lame - but can't fault the WP article! hamiltonstone (talk) 03:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the support and for the suggestion. I've added the sentence "The record was not a commercial success for U2, and the group expressed disappointment at the low sales" after the critical reception part in the lead. If you disliked "Moment of Surrender", why not give "Breathe" or "Fez - Being Born" a shot? =P Melicans (talk, contributions) 13:45, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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