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:::::Why? Without trying to sound elitist, I think it'd be appropriate to add the region of origin's boxart to help the reader identify the developer's origins, instead of simply making it a race to put the boxart when it's first released, that's just promoting [[WP:BADFAITH]] when regional elitist editors DO get involved. Sincerely [[User:Subzerosmokerain|Subzerosmokerain]] ([[User talk:Subzerosmokerain|talk]]) 22:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
:::::Why? Without trying to sound elitist, I think it'd be appropriate to add the region of origin's boxart to help the reader identify the developer's origins, instead of simply making it a race to put the boxart when it's first released, that's just promoting [[WP:BADFAITH]] when regional elitist editors DO get involved. Sincerely [[User:Subzerosmokerain|Subzerosmokerain]] ([[User talk:Subzerosmokerain|talk]]) 22:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
::::::It's not bad faith, we've just all seen this a dozen times. About once a month a discussion identical to this pops up here. It's almost always the same- one person(s) says that the NA/PAL box art is more widely known/the dev is from there, then the other side says that the other region is more widely known/the dev is from there. Both sides start out sounding reasonable, but the discussion within 3 comments turns into some sort of trench warfare, with neither side willing to give in. What's worse, in every case the article itself has massive problems/work that needs to be done, but the editors who would be doing the work are bickering over the image instead. The dispute (on this page anyways) then generally ends when three or more uninvolved editors start citing [[WP:STOPCHANGINGIT]], which is why that sentence got tacked onto the end of the boxart guidelines. I mean, really. There's no development section, the reception section is too short, gameplay and story are in the wrong order, and half the references aren't properly formatted. Any one of these issues is about 50 times more important than which boxart image is used. It really doesn't matter. --'''[[User:PresN|<span style="color:green">Pres</span>]][[User talk:PresN|<span style="color:blue">N</span>]]''' 23:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
::::::It's not bad faith, we've just all seen this a dozen times. About once a month a discussion identical to this pops up here. It's almost always the same- one person(s) says that the NA/PAL box art is more widely known/the dev is from there, then the other side says that the other region is more widely known/the dev is from there. Both sides start out sounding reasonable, but the discussion within 3 comments turns into some sort of trench warfare, with neither side willing to give in. What's worse, in every case the article itself has massive problems/work that needs to be done, but the editors who would be doing the work are bickering over the image instead. The dispute (on this page anyways) then generally ends when three or more uninvolved editors start citing [[WP:STOPCHANGINGIT]], which is why that sentence got tacked onto the end of the boxart guidelines. I mean, really. There's no development section, the reception section is too short, gameplay and story are in the wrong order, and half the references aren't properly formatted. Any one of these issues is about 50 times more important than which boxart image is used. It really doesn't matter. --'''[[User:PresN|<span style="color:green">Pres</span>]][[User talk:PresN|<span style="color:blue">N</span>]]''' 23:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
:::::::If this is a recurring issue, then it would be sensible to find a guideline that doesn't conflict with anything else in the article. I don't think anyone meant for there to be a conflict like this, and it does seem useless to do so, but if a consensus is reached them I'm sure it would at least help prevent this 'monthly issue'. As for the actual Shadow Master article, there are many important parts to an article, and the box art and images just happens to be one of them. What we are focusing on here, in this discussion, is the image issue, so I wouldn't discount this as completely unimportant. When it's been resolved we won't need to worry about it anymore anyways. As I have said on the talk page, I do still believe that as far as where finding information on the game is concerned (what is listed now and what will be found in the future), the North American box art does seem to come up a lot more often. In the end, as long as some cover art is used is fine, but before anything is changed it would be good to remember this. ([[User:NuHalo|NuHalo]] ([[User talk:NuHalo|talk]]) 01:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC))


== Conflict of interest on [[Zeno Clash]] ==
== Conflict of interest on [[Zeno Clash]] ==

Revision as of 01:50, 15 December 2010

Category:Vii CFD

Since our deletion subpage doesn't accept CFDs I list it here: Deletion discussion for Category:Vii. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mika1h (talk • contribs) 22:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

View changes of all pages in Wikiproject?

I thought I had stumbled on a way to view all of the recent changes to articles across the entire Wikiproject, but I can't find it anymore. Can any one help? --Teancum (talk) 14:33, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean this? Or even this? --Dorsal Axe 14:55, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The latter was the one I was looking for, thanks. Is there a Wikilink version? --Teancum (talk) 15:35, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind - its Special:RecentChangesLinked/Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games. Thanks! --Teancum (talk) 15:37, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The link is on the To-Do list at the top of the page. Just letting you know. Blake (Talk·Edits) 15:39, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, nevermind. That is just project pages. Blake (Talk·Edits) 15:40, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a link to the watchlist in the navigation box, for ease of access. --Dorsal Axe 15:43, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This? Special:RecentChangesLinked/Template:WPVG_Sidebar JACOPLANE • 2010-12-13 15:44
Yes, Dorsal Axe just posted it up there recently - however I recommend hanging onto the other link too, as for some reason they show different articles. --Teancum (talk) 16:32, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri Images

Guyinblack25, Nolelover, Dream Focus and I have been having a discussion at Talk:Sid_Meier's_Alpha_Centauri#Images regarding the use of a second cover art image. The game Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri had a sequel that is something between an expansion pack and a new game, Sid Meier's Alien Crossfire. 6 months ago, there was a separate WP article for the sequel, Sid Meier's Alien Crossfire, and possibly in the future a different set of editors might decide to split Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri into two articles, since the length of the article is now at or slightly beyond the recommended maximum length. The question is whether the second cover art should be in the article. I refer you to the article talk page for Guyinblack25's concerns about a second cover art. Thank you for looking at this issue. Vyeh (talk) 11:46, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And while we're at it, could someone who's good with fair-use templates take a look at the images listed on the talk page (Vyeh's first link). I fixed/added templates to two pics, but I've never done that before and I'd appreciate someone make sure I did it right. Nolelover It's football season! 14:15, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well TBH, I'd ask what that second image really adds. It's very similar to the main game in art and its basically the same media (FE: I'd have less problem if there was a novel about it and that was used as another image). The second one just doesn't seem to add much.
As for the fair-use reasonings, there okay, but clearly could be strengthened. If you want some ideas, just look at the ones I have done.陣内Jinnai 16:17, 4 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reminder: last 15 hours of voting in the ArbCom elections

Dear editors,

Now is your final chance to vote in the December 2010 elections for new members of ArbCom. Voting will close just before midnight UTC tonight, Sunday 5 December (earlier for North America: just before 4 pm west coast, 7 pm east coast). Eligible voters (check your eligibility) are encouraged to vote well before the closing time due to the risk of server lag.

Arbitrators occupy high-profile positions and perform essential and demanding roles in handling some of the most difficult and sensitive issues on the project. The following pages may be of assistance to voters: candidate statements, questions for the candidates, discussion of the candidates and personal voter guides.

For the election coordinators, Tony (talk) 09:45, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looking Glass Studios manuals

In my continuing quest to improve LGS coverage, I have stumbled upon yet another problem: the manuals for Flight Unlimited and British Open Championship Golf do not exist on the Internet, as far as I can see. I do not happen to have them in physical form, either. Does anyone know of a way to obtain these, or does anyone have them in PDF? Any help would be greatly appreciated; it would be nearly impossible to work on either article without them. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:52, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to remind everyone that we still need a "feature" section and to interview a "featured editor" for this quarter's WPVG newsletter, which I plan to get out in early January. A "feature" is just simply a description and overview of one of the aspects within the project, and "featured editor" is self-explanatory. Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Newsletter/draft is right there to get started if anyone wants to contribute one. –MuZemike 18:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I might write a feature if no one else steps to the plate tonight or tomorrow. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:32, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't mind subjecting myself to an interview, if no one else is interested. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:20, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If anyone is looking for feature ideas, might I suggest how to create new articles for DYK or write a FL? (Guyinblack25 talk 20:59, 7 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
An FL feature would be useful. Despite my time here, I'm still not sure how to achieve one. I didn't even know how to write or format a list until PresN kindly explained it to me in one of the topics above. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 05:25, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've started one at the draftspace. It's somewhat inhibited by the fact that I don't spend nearly as much time at FLs compared to FAs, so pile-ons might be nice :) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 23:59, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can add next week. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:57, 9 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Anachronox music

I've been working on Anachronox over the last four days, as I realized the game's name is ridiculously easy to search for finding great sources. The reception/development sections are still a mess, as I need to integrate a couple gaming site reviews to finish them at this point. I noticed that none of the ~55 sources I have so far mentions the music of the game, and I don't have much to go off for finding some good sources. If you're an Anachronox fan and know some good leads or sources for the music, it'd be much appreciated. (Feel free to help out at the article, too, though it will look much, much better once I finish adding stuff to the reception section and copyedit/restructure it.) ZeaLitY [ Talk - Activity ] 20:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Holy smokes, thats a lot of sourced text. If you could fix that up, and integrate some of the sources into the rest of the article, you have a Great Article on your hands. About your question, does the music really need to be covered? Is there something special about it? Blake (Talk·Edits) 21:00, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to see this article is being worked on. I hope the sources I provided on the talk page come in handy—there are a ton of developer quotes in them. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:53, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yeah, haven't even started chewing on those yet; I can't wait to crack those developer quotes. Yeah Blake, I think once I get all those interviews on board, I'll start restructuring and kind of condense like-items until it's a tightly-packed explosion of critical review. Anachronox seems to have been really fortunate to get so many newspaper reviews and attention. The music, well, it was kind of a unique situation (as far as I know) because all the music was outsourced to another company that had no game to write the score to, yet was allegedly well-received and won an award. Not sure how much of a section can be mustered in present form, but I did plan on throwing in a 30-second clip of a song as one of four planned fair use files for the article. I just realized I was erroneously italicizing newspaper names in the cite template, so back to work for me, haha. ZeaLitY [ Talk - Activity ] 03:40, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just chiming in to say I've finished the reception section, and am inviting any copyedits or anything (of course I'll send it through peer review and everything later on). Just, damn, though. That is a beast of a reception section. I guess that's what happens when good sources are plentiful. ZeaLitY [ Talk - Activity ] 03:21, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Help at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Sources

Just to ensure that any current discussions are decided on before they're archived, can ya'll stop by and chime in on some discussions? Some particular topics that need comments:

  • Approval of the Hungarian 576 Konzol magazine
  • Onrpg
  • ZTGameDomain
  • XBLAfans
  • The Video Game Critic
  • XBLAfans
  • GamerBytes
  • GamerTell

Please stop in and give opinions and such so these can be decided one way or the other. Thanks! --Teancum (talk) 22:10, 8 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Template:VGtitle

Hey everyone, long time no see. I'm here because of notes that have been raised at one of my recent FLCs, Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of X-Men video games/archive1. Objections have been risen to the accessibility of Template:VGtitle and though they haven't brought any "Oppose" votes, I feel that they will in the future. A comprehensive redesign of the template is needed as soon as possible.

I understand that this has been brought up here on the talk page, but I want to emphasize the importance of this re-design. We may need to scrap VGtitle altogether if we can't meet WP:ACCESS with it. Is there any way that we could edit the template so we don't have to restart all of our FLs? Nomader (Talk) 04:30, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it can be done. The main problem is that each instance is a separate template. It should be possible to merge it all together, and have it function more like a table that can be extended as and when required. --Dorsal Axe 11:39, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was wondering if something like that would be possible-- the templates are stuck together usually in lists like List of X-Men video games so if we could modify the template to work like that, it would be fantastic. Unfortunately I'm pretty terrible with that kind of wiki-mark-up so someone has to step up to the plate. Nomader (Talk) 16:05, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
PresN provided a suggestion above in the Need help with a list section.
  1. Create a new template that acts as the top or bottom of a table.
  2. Then create another that mimics VGtitle, but is only the code for table rows instead of a whole table.
  3. This way we can go through each list at our leisure adding the table tops and bottoms and swapping out the old template name for the new one.
  4. VGtitle can then be redirected to the new template.
I can handle the template code, but we need a naming scheme for the new templates.
Another issue raised at the FLC is that unreleased games should use "Proposed system release:" instead of "Release years by system:". I think this can be fixed with a new parameter "unreleased". This could also change the "Original release date(s)" text as well. Any thoughts? (Guyinblack25 talk 16:31, 9 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
There should already be a "Proposed system release:" bit in the VGtitle template. I've used it before in List of Kirby media-- you should add the parameter "|canceled=" to add a cancellation date instead of the release dates on the left, and then it changes to "Proposed system release:" instead of release years by system. Nomader (Talk) 07:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but cancelled also changes the release date to "Cancellation date". He wants a switch that instead makes it "Proposed release date". I say go for it, sounds useful. --PresN 18:56, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As for the name, well... how about Video game title/Video game title item, just an expansion of VGtitle? --PresN 21:14, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd have no objection to that, as long as we keep the redirect from VGtitle for the template. So, just to clarify-- it's possible to meet WP:ACCESS with improvements to the template? Nomader (Talk) 03:51, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding was that the fact that repeated uses of the template made it look like a table, but was in fact a series of separate tables, played havoc with screen readers. Changing it so each VGtitle (or Video game title item) was itself a row in a regular table fixes this problem. As per above, once all uses of VGtitle are replaced with Video game title item, VGtitle will be redirected- redirecting it straight off without have the wrapper Video game title template would result in a broken page. Until all uses are replaced, existing uses of VGtitle would continue to work just fine. --PresN 04:13, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Video game title" sounds good to me. I have two ideas for the new format:
  • Video game title has a single undefined parameter that can hold multiple instances of "Video game title item". For example:
    {{Video game title|
    {{Video game title item}}
    {{Video game title item}}
    {{Video game title item}}
    }}
  • Video game title accepts two parameters: {{Video game title|start}} and {{Video game title|end}}. They would still wrap around multiple items, but as two separate templates. For example:
    {{Video game title|start}}
    {{Video game title item}}
    {{Video game title item}}
    {{Video game title item}}
    {{Video game title|end}}
Also, two other items:
  • How about "futuregame" for the new parameter name instead of "unreleased"?
  • Should the item template be a sub-page of Video game title, like "Video game title\item"?
Any thoughts? (Guyinblack25 talk 16:43, 13 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
I like the first way better; futuregame sounds fine and more obvious; and why not, that way they're obviously linked together since there's multiple templates with similar names. --PresN 23:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Masocore gaming"

I was wondering if anyone wanted to help make a genre article on "Masocore gaming." This type of gaming includes games based on an incredibly high "hardcore challenge," such as Super Meat Boy, Mighty Jill Off, and others. Of course, it would require extensive research to determine what qualifies as this kind of game (as well as what to call it). If there is already such a genre article, disregard. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 22:09, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're going to need to start with reliable sources. Do you have any which actually state that this is a genre? I think it would be difficult to justify why it shouldn't just form a footnote in Difficulty level or Platform game. - hahnchen 23:13, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In the Mighty Jill Off article, the interviewer credits its developer with creating the "masocore" genre. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 23:57, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The interviewer is just trying to coin a phrase—I've never seen the term, despite my constant reading about game genre and theory. In fact, I've never seen the concept, with or without that name, analyzed in any significant way. Unless it becomes widespread, there's no way an article can or should be written about it. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 00:02, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This forum post from January 2008 is the earliest use of the term I could find, and Anna Anthropy seems to have helped popularize it. I've seen the term used quite a few times on forums, but I can't find significant coverage in reliable sources. Is there another term commonly used to refer to this type of game? Reach Out to the Truth 04:44, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm just using it as the only term I know of that is used to refer to these kind of games. I guess we could look around, see if anyone uses any other phrases. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 05:47, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just use the common English description, like masochistic gameplay for example. There's no need to promote neologisms, and it's more or less prohibited to do so. Ham Pastrami (talk) 06:19, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds good. Is anyone else in favour of that? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 06:31, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It also seems to be something primarily aimed at indie games, like I Wanna Be the Guy and Super Meat Boy. I think that, if we can decide on a name for the genre, it would be fairly simple to limit the games included - we'd just need to be hyper-strict on what games are listed as such, as well as what content to use to discuss these games in the genre article. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 05:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you're deciding on the name of a genre, and then deciding what goes in it, that's pretty much original research. Like Blackwing above, I'd never heard of this term, and would not consider it for Wikipedia other than sections in Difficulty level or Platform game. - hahnchen 17:03, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia without editors making decisions on what content is included would probably not be half as big as it is. We make decisions based on our own perception every single day. What you have heard of is irrelevant in light of the people who have heard of it. It's clearly not an issue of whether or not this kind of gaming exists, but rather, what to call it and what to include. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:15, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A genre article cannot be written without numerous, highly detailed sources that cover its every facet. The alleged genre in this case does not have them, and therefore should not have an article. If the time comes that such sources exist, an article can and should be written. That time is not now; as hahnchen said, it would constitute original research. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 21:26, 10 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think the point that needs hammering in is, first of all, "duh." Every single thing you just explained to me is something I've already said in this very discussion. "Of course, it would require extensive research to determine what qualifies as this kind of game (as well as what to call it)." I have no idea why you are attempting to waste time explaining to someone something that they have already demonstrated knowledge of. If you want to discuss the actual topic at hand, be my guest. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 08:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, cool down a bit, no need to be defensive. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your intent. What the other editors said about genres is true, but I don't think that "masocore" would really be a distinct genre in itself, but rather a general gameplay topic. A genre exists independently of its difficulty level, e.g. there is nothing about Super Meat Boy's gameplay that makes difficulty intrinsic to its design. It was just a choice by the developers to make it a hard game. The genre is still a platformer. With sources, I think it's fine to have an article about games that are designed to be extremely difficult (if there is sufficient content to warrant a distinction from difficulty level). But I would avoid calling that a genre, as it's likely to be misunderstood. Ham Pastrami (talk) 10:16, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you could use "extensive research to determine what qualifies as this kind of game" without violating WP:SYNTH, but would instead need a reliable source to call each game that on a case-by-case basis. bridies (talk) 10:38, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you could write a decent paragraph on platform games at Difficulty_level#Difficulty_level_by_genre. - hahnchen 11:59, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hippie, it's nothing personal. I'm against the idea, not anyone involved in the debate. As bridies said, your proposal, in those words, is synthesis. And as I stated above, the genre as a whole cannot be covered on Wikipedia without proper third-party coverage of the genre—consistently named, consistently described coverage. That the term "masocore" has been used on forums, or by reliable sources in passing, is not enough to warrant naming an article that. And that several sites talk about masochistically-difficult gameplay, or even call it a genre, is not enough to warrant its inclusion as an article on Wikipedia. On these same grounds, I and many others believe that Dota (genre) shouldn't exist, either. (There was a big argument here recently, regarding that article.) However, in my opinion, even Dota has more arguable notability than this proposal. I just don't see how, at this time, it can be done within policy. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 11:17, 11 December 2010 (UTC) [reply]

^What he said. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 23:59, 11 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I want to ask you a favor, Wiki friends!

Please take some moments of your precious time to read, fix, consider and re-rate these articles:

Dream Chronicles (series)

Dream Chronicles

Dream Chronicles 2: The Eternal Maze

Dream Chronicles: The Chosen Child

Dream Chronicles: The Book of Air

As the main contributing writer of these articles, I will very very appreciate YOUR knowledge and ratings!

Big thanks for your helps! – †hinhin_of_you / buzzworthy / βoy Ünder Ғlowers – 05:13, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please look at this. GamerPro64 (talk) 02:31, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They all have tons of information, but are largely unsourced. I would say C on all of them. Blake (Talk·Edits) 03:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's why I'm "asking you a favor" to correct me! :) – †hinhin_of_you / buzzworthy / βoy Ünder Ғlowers – 05:13, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recent splits of Nintendo remakes and ports

I have noticed that some time ago, quite a few remakes and ports of Nintendo games were split from the main articles. While some of these splits are certainly reasonable, others are simply lacking enough information to warrant its own article. I have marked those with a merge tag. There are also three which I personally find should be kept, though if someone thinks they should be merged, feel free to add one and create a subsection here. Prime Blue (talk) 16:52, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Merge to The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past – little was done to improve this article since the last redirect; if you take away the general A Link to the Past stuff already explained in the other article, this one is left at three paragraphs at most which is pretty weak for its own article; the old solution was okay, though I'd move up the enhanced port section and split off its reception into the main reception section, along with preserving a separate infobox Prime Blue (talk) 16:52, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As the person who split the article, I request that it not be merged. I just haven't had the time to establish notability. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:21, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your sentiment, but it's been 4 years since the article was created. If it were notable, certain sources would have come up by now.陣内Jinnai 21:08, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was split mere months ago (I was, in fact, the one who merged it). The sources exist - however, due to the shared name with the Super NES version as stated below, it is a significant task to sift through the articles that deal with the Game Boy Advance version, and the articles that deal with the other versions. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:44, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also feel that by virtue of having an entirely original multi-player component attached to the Super NES port, there is huge potential for reception, and the knowledge that the gameplay and plot will not be entirely based on the port. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:47, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the third response, but according to Metacritic, there are 30 critic reviews for the game; according to Game Rankings, there are 38. Clearly, the reception is nowhere near complete. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:49, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well TBH, I wonder how many of those reviews comment on anything new that would make it notably different from the original. I remember reading a few back in the day that didn't have much addititional to comment beycond comparison to the original - which would seem to indicate it should be with it. The few that did mention 4 swords also mentioned the console version which allows for single-player and compared those 2 games together.
Thus I'm not sure it would violate our guidelines on remakes as it seems to be a mere port, ie I don't think it meets the Super Mario 64 DS threshold. The 4 swords game is treated seperatly and that could have its own page I'll grant.陣内Jinnai 01:01, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If we were to make an original article for the Four Swords multi-player mode, it would make much more sense to simply keep it as it is, so that it can cover the varying aspects - the release, development, reception, etc. Super Mario Advance 4, for example, is in a similar boat to this article, where it features a slightly enhanced port combined with a deep secondary mode. Additionally, FS and ALttP have some linking, completion-wise; for example, when Four Swords is completed, a dungeon is unlocked. The ALttP port, when beaten, adds onto FS. Completing FS 10 times will lead to unlocking a new technique, as well. For convenience sake, it'd be best to keep them combined. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 02:53, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree with Hippie, especially considering that he was the one who originally pushed for the merger. There is no deadline and the sources exist. I see no reason or hurry to re-merge. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:02, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think another question here is if the other sections can be expanded appropriately to warrant its own article, mostly:
  • Gameplay: Does Four Swords have substantially different gameplay from A Link to the Past as long as one does not go into WP:GAMEGUIDE-like specifics?
  • Plot: Same here: Is one paragraph the most the game needs without going into trivial details?
  • Development: For me, this one would actually the most important factor in keeping the separate article. Do you have sources on the porting process of A Link to the Past and the creation of Four Swords? Who was involved? How did it come about? Technology, difficulties, and so on.
These are basically what I would have in mind. Personally, I don't think one or two paragraphs on the plot and gameplay need an article, no matter how substantial the reception section can become. Prime Blue (talk) 18:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, if the reception is substantial enough, it will be a huge eyesore and take up way too much space in the Super NES article. Four Swords is built as a multi-player game; the only similarities would be those that would warrant merging Majora's Mask to Ocarina. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 18:50, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That is why I am asking. Majora's Mask, while using the same basic system, differs quite heavily from Ocarina of Time because of the introduction of masks and the three-day-system. I never played Four Swords, so I can't judge whether its changes from A Link to the Past are just as substantial (I just know that it's a multiplayer game and has randomly created dungeons). Prime Blue (talk) 19:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Four Swords is a completely new game added onto A Link to the Past. I support keeping the article split. There is no reason to merge this, especially when he is saying that the article is not complete and he just needs more time. Blake (Talk·Edits) 19:14, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. 4 swords, when it is reviewed, has been treated as its own game similar to other compliation game releases. That's why I'm okay with a 4 swords article, but not the one currently here. There is no way I could see it passing WP:VG/GL for a remake. Reception is not enough; that is what we came up with when we came to that concensus. You need also good development section because release dates and such. The GBA remake can't do that for the main game and the reception is not distinct enough for LttP either.

Also no time limit is not a free pass to violate policy.陣内Jinnai 19:36, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As Jinnai said, Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines#Dealing with remakes seems to be required for a split (largely the criteria which I listed in the edit above). I would support a separate article if it gets a comprehensive development section in addition to the reception (same goes for Super Mario Bros. Deluxe). Also, keep in mind that this is not an AfD: The work already done is not lost and can always be restored and expanded to a full article. Prime Blue (talk) 20:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've read several reviews, and a decent number of them cover them together. It's obviously not a compilation - Four Swords is offered as a multi-player mode with some links to the single player game. Development content does not establish notability - it establishes how open a developer is to speaking on their game. But I am curious, why would the ALttP port have no development information? It was developed, correct? They didn't have the exact same development team to port it, nor did they design the new dungeon, the new boss, the new mechanics, side quests, the links to Four Swords, the different screen ratio (which does make a noticeable difference), etc. The "policy" is an ignorant one that leads to lower-quality articles because we slap content onto the end of these articles. Regardless of it all, there is no point in keeping Four Swords split from ALttP, but without significant mention of the port. The fact of the matter is that being that there is a new game included with the port, it is not strictly a port - applying the "policy" on remakes on this game so blindly is silly. If we split it to just Four Swords, we would inevitably have to discuss A Link to the Past significantly, seeing as how the gameplay is linked with ALttP's, and how any discussion of it outside of the game would have to discuss the package rather than the multi-player mode. Fact of the matter is that we would be going to insane ends to get around a "policy." As it stands, giving the Four Swords article more content by discussing the whole package is actually making it less worthy of an article, somehow. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 23:38, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have never seen Four Swords reviewed as a separate game. From what I've seen, the whole package is reviewed. Can you point me toward some of the reviews you're referring to? Keep in mind that this is not the same game as Four Swords Adventures. Reach Out to the Truth 00:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

i am talking about the GC one - which is also the same game as the GBA one save the single-player mode.

@New Age Retro Hippie - that guideline was developed by consensus of here - on this page - by the community to keep articles from being infinitatly spun out simply because a port, remake (with no substantial changes) and compilations (which are often one of those two) comes out and someone reviews that remake or port. The question isn't "why shouldn't it get another article" it is "why should it". Reception alone isn't enough. Minor development info like who the team was also isn't enough. You need substantial info on both.


Reguardless of how it came into being and how the reception is done, the GBA title is a compilation of 2 different games. Compilations are always reviewed as a whole because they have to be. You have to at some point tell the reader whether the purchase of the item is worth it overall. However, in those reviews they do make clear distinctions between the two games.陣内Jinnai 04:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How many reviews of BioShock 2 review its multiplayer component alongside its single player component? If being reviewed in a different part of the ALttP/FS review is enough to warrant FS having its own article, then that is enough for BioShock 2 multiplayer to have its own article. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 06:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Super Mario Bros. Deluxe merger

Merge to Super Mario Bros. – description of game modes borders on WP:GAMEGUIDE; very short reception section; rest is trivia-esque information; Prime Blue (talk) 16:52, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect. There is not enough information for the article to stand on its own, and virtually no information that is worth merging to Super Mario Bros.. In fact, the section of Super Mario Bros. looks to be more appropriate for an encyclopaedia article. The Gameplay and Differences sections are both completely inappropriate, and the Reception section is more or less copied from Super Mario Bros.. I suggest that the Super Mario Bros. Deluxe redirect be protected, as it is clear by now that there cannot be an article written about this game that satisfies all relevant guidelines. Xenon54 (talk) 17:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Super Mario Advance merger

Merge to Super Mario Bros. 2 – release info and reception section only Prime Blue (talk) 16:52, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2 merger

Merge to Super Mario World – only release info and very short reception section; rest is trivia Prime Blue (talk) 16:52, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Super Mario 64 2 merger

Merge to Super Mario 64 – not enough information for individual sections Prime Blue (talk) 16:52, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mother 1 + 2 merger

Merge to EarthBound (series) – mostly trivia-esque information with a very short reception section Prime Blue (talk) 16:52, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Source hunting

In preparation for my upcoming project, Flight Unlimited, I've been amassing reference material on the game. I've managed to find a fair amount, but reviews have been scarce. I know for a fact that some appeared in the following magazine issues:

  • PC Zone April 1995 - one quote I found was, "Arguably the best flight simulation ever produced"
  • Computer Gaming World issue 131, June 1995, with this cover - found the quote, "you should at least take a look at this product, because you'll be looking at the future of simulations"

If anyone has access to these, I'd be really grateful. Getting them would bring the review tally up to 8, which should be plenty for a comprehensive section. Once I have these and the manual (which I'll be acquiring soon), I should be well on my way to a solid GA. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 09:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to move Alternative character back to Alternate character

Alternate character was recently moved to Alternative character; proposal to move it back is at Talk:Alternative character#Move back to Alternate character. —chaos5023 (talk) 14:57, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Distribution field in Template:Infobox video game

Currently, in our VG infobox, we have a "distribution" field in which we specify whether a game is available retail, download, or via cloud. More input is needed in discussion - Template_talk:Infobox_video_game#Distribution_field. - hahnchen 20:25, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Shadow Master cover art

Can we get comments at Talk:Shadow Master? I replaced North American cover with European one because it's an European developed game and WP:VGIMAGES states that "Where different cover designs are available for different regions, the one from the region in which the game has been developed should be used." but it also states that "Cover art should appear in the infobox (see below for more info on the infobox), and ideally, the most recognizable English-language cover should be used to illustrate the subject.". And apparently NA cover is the most recognizable. So which cover should be used? --Mika1h (talk) 13:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bit puzzled why the "Most Recognizable" bit is still there - I thought the whole reason behind the preceding part was to avoid all the " There are more X so that makes version Y the correct one" arguments. As regards this cover, I'd say leave the NA one there for the time being and try to build a concensus for using the one from the developers country. - X201 (talk) 13:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're skipping the last sentence there- "unless another English language version has been uploaded first in which case don't change it". X201 is right- if you can get consensus to change it, you can, but in general the first English-language cover that gets stuck on the article wins, as its a silly thing to argue about. --PresN 17:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But that bit is for if the game is not released first in English (and this game is). --Mika1h (talk) 17:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's true, at Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe, there is a European box art on the article. It was the first there so it hasn't been touched. I would like to replace it with an American one because it was developed by an American company, but as said above the first one stays. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 17:37, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
VGIMAGES says if there is already an English language box art there, don't change it. Don't change it, because it's generally petty, nationalistic, and does nothing to improve the article. Half the world are going to be more familiar with the American artwork, half the world more familiar with the PAL artwork - it doesn't matter. The whole "region of release" thing really has no bearing on how appropriate a cover art is for in terms of identification. We should just remove that preference from VGIMAGES. - hahnchen 21:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Why? Without trying to sound elitist, I think it'd be appropriate to add the region of origin's boxart to help the reader identify the developer's origins, instead of simply making it a race to put the boxart when it's first released, that's just promoting WP:BADFAITH when regional elitist editors DO get involved. Sincerely Subzerosmokerain (talk) 22:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not bad faith, we've just all seen this a dozen times. About once a month a discussion identical to this pops up here. It's almost always the same- one person(s) says that the NA/PAL box art is more widely known/the dev is from there, then the other side says that the other region is more widely known/the dev is from there. Both sides start out sounding reasonable, but the discussion within 3 comments turns into some sort of trench warfare, with neither side willing to give in. What's worse, in every case the article itself has massive problems/work that needs to be done, but the editors who would be doing the work are bickering over the image instead. The dispute (on this page anyways) then generally ends when three or more uninvolved editors start citing WP:STOPCHANGINGIT, which is why that sentence got tacked onto the end of the boxart guidelines. I mean, really. There's no development section, the reception section is too short, gameplay and story are in the wrong order, and half the references aren't properly formatted. Any one of these issues is about 50 times more important than which boxart image is used. It really doesn't matter. --PresN 23:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If this is a recurring issue, then it would be sensible to find a guideline that doesn't conflict with anything else in the article. I don't think anyone meant for there to be a conflict like this, and it does seem useless to do so, but if a consensus is reached them I'm sure it would at least help prevent this 'monthly issue'. As for the actual Shadow Master article, there are many important parts to an article, and the box art and images just happens to be one of them. What we are focusing on here, in this discussion, is the image issue, so I wouldn't discount this as completely unimportant. When it's been resolved we won't need to worry about it anymore anyways. As I have said on the talk page, I do still believe that as far as where finding information on the game is concerned (what is listed now and what will be found in the future), the North American box art does seem to come up a lot more often. In the end, as long as some cover art is used is fine, but before anything is changed it would be good to remember this. (NuHalo (talk) 01:50, 15 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Conflict of interest on Zeno Clash

The developer of the game has e-mailed User:Teancum to request that the cover art in the article be changed to another because the one currently used is "horrid looking". This is at odds with Wikipedia's conflict-of-interest policy as well as the video game project's image guidelines, so I would like to know what should be done. Thanks! Megata Sanshiro (talk) 18:33, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I wouldn't consider this a COI, just a request by the dev to improve the article. What could be done is to encourage the developer to allow the image they want of the cover to be used in a free license and/or to possibly submit the image through WP:OTRS as to be a "better" image than the non-free cover we have now. --MASEM (t) 18:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is the other image? Or didn't he/she specify? - X201 (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how this is a conflict of interest. WP:COI clearly states "Editors with COIs are strongly encouraged—but not actually required—to declare their interests, both on their user pages and on the talk page of the related article they are editing, particularly if those edits may be contested." Acting at the request of the developer (who communicated via email instead of the talk page) I changed the image - he suggested, I agreed with that suggestion, it was changed. File:Zeno Clash.jpg (the original image) is not a bad image, but it was also a JPG and did not use {{Vgboxart fur}} in its rationale. That combined with the request prompted me to upload File:ZenoClash cover.png, which is a preferred PNG image (I would have replaced the original with a PNG anyway), uses {{Vgboxart fur}} and (though I'll admit doesn't have as much weight) uses the American boxart, which I presume is what is used in Chile, the developer's home country, since that's what they submitted for replacement. --Teancum (talk) 18:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Use the new image. Both images are suitable, and we'd quite like developers on our side if we want them to donate more free images like at commons:Zeno Clash. - hahnchen 21:29, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Use the new image. They're right, the old one is horrid looking, and it's not COI unless they change it themselves without letting people know that they were the devs. --PresN 23:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination for deletion of Template:Video game engines

Template:Video game engines has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. 134.253.26.11 (talk) 19:09, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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