Talk:Barack Obama: Difference between revisions
MiszaBot I (talk | contribs) m Archiving 2 thread(s) (older than 25d) to Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 73. |
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:"Mulatto" is largely viewed as a pejorative slur in the United States. The common term is "African-American" used by reliable sources, so that is what we use here. See FAQ #2 above. [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] ([[User talk:Tarc|talk]]) 00:14, 13 March 2012 (UTC) |
:"Mulatto" is largely viewed as a pejorative slur in the United States. The common term is "African-American" used by reliable sources, so that is what we use here. See FAQ #2 above. [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] ([[User talk:Tarc|talk]]) 00:14, 13 March 2012 (UTC) |
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::Use obama is black president. [[User:Ksanthosh89|Santhosh k]] ([[User talk:ksanthosh89|talk]]) 04:27, 20 March 2012 (UTC) |
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== Obama's descent == |
== Obama's descent == |
Revision as of 04:27, 20 March 2012
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Frequently asked questions
Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Template:Community article probation
Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83 |
Historical diffs, Weight, Race |
This page has archives. Sections older than 25 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 1 section is present. |
Race & categories
This article has been removed from the category "American Christians" and been placed in the "African-American Christians" category. I understand that the former category is the parent of the latter, but the appearance is that Wikipedia believes that Blacks need to be segregated from the other American Christians. I suggest leaving Black Americans, including President Obama, in the American Christians category even though they are also in their own Christian category. Alternatively, merge the African-American Christians category into the American Christians category. SMP0328. (talk) 03:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
- I would support merging the categories, but that's an issue for WP:CFD. They could just as easily decide that Category:American Christians should not be diffused, or make some other recommendation. Fat&Happy (talk) 20:56, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
- And as long as they remain separate, there is no need to put someone who is in Category:African-American Christians in American Christians. African-American Christians is a subcat of American Christians (and logically it should always be) so by definition anyone in African-American Christians is in American Christians. Nil Einne (talk) 17:34, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- I have proposed the merger of the subcategory into its parent. I have also made a broader merger proposal. SMP0328. (talk) 23:05, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- And as long as they remain separate, there is no need to put someone who is in Category:African-American Christians in American Christians. African-American Christians is a subcat of American Christians (and logically it should always be) so by definition anyone in African-American Christians is in American Christians. Nil Einne (talk) 17:34, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
"Probable cause" on Obama birth certificate
Arpaio on Thursday unveiled preliminary results of an investigation, conducted by members of his volunteer cold-case posse, into the authenticity of President Barack Obama’s birth certificate, a controversy that has been widely debunked but which remains alive in the eyes of some conservatives.
At a news conference, Arpaio said the probe revealed that there was probable cause to believe Obama’s long-form birth certificate released by the White House in April is a computer-generated forgery. He also said the selective service card completed by Obama in 1980 in Hawaii also was most likely a forgery. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.135.204 (talk) 18:55, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- What of it? Editors of this page have repeatedly decided that this WP:FRINGE stuff isn't biographically significant to Obama, but there's an entire article devoted to the subject, Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, and a section there about Arpaio's participation. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:04, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, to think Joe Arpaio and his team would know a forgery but the CIA or FBI can't is silly. Common scene.SG2090 19:22, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
If there is ever proof or widespread coverage, then it should be in the article. Until then, it is a joke. Everyone can see the computer generated form is recent. Nobody says it is 50 years old. But in the 1960's, air travel was rare so Obama couldn't have jetted to Kenya and back. It's just silly. He was born in Hawaii. McCain was born in Panama. Afghandeaths (talk) 23:22, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Notre Dame: Honorary Degree
Alright, was the honorary degree given or taken back? http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/16/us-usa-catholics-contraception-idUSTRE81F12620120216
Twillisjr (talk) 21:17, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see anything it that article that even implies that.--70.24.208.34 (talk) 01:49, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
As far as his personal image, there are some terms that he brought into widespread use.
This is a good addition. Think hard. I can think of some of them. They include shellacking and teachable moment. Neither term was used until Obama used them. There are a few more.
There are also some events during his Presidency that are really not part of his biography. These should be trimmed. Anything that he was not a major proponent and waged a major public campaign for is potentially good material. The other stuff is not and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Midemer (talk • contribs) 06:29, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
The Section mentioning the Death of Osama Bin Laden should be edited to just say that he announced the death and not orchestrated or anything to that effect. Our Fine Military killed Osama and not by the order of barrak. If any president deserves this in their Bio its George W. Bush. Since he originally ordered his acquisition. (Sirbiff10 (talk) 03:47, 25 February 2012 (UTC))
This is a good comment. Yet someone censored this and shoved it to the archives. If I was not curious, it would remain there. I am copying it here.
I fully agree that this article has a lot about his presidency unrelated to his biography. Part of it may be political opinion pushers trying to manipulate Wikipedia.
The terms shellacking and teachable moment should be included. Let's think of some other Obama-ism. These are important details of the biography of Obama. Afghandeaths (talk) 23:06, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Fixing the intro
I found this buried in the archives. It is recent so it is really bad that someone is hiding it there. I accuse nobody though, just fixing it, copying it here for discussion and change. Afghandeaths (talk) 23:09, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
- Cut-and paste of unhelpful collapsed archive discussion Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 73#real problems with this article just because of inbreeding removed. Please note that there is a sockpuppetry case concerning the above account - Wikidemon (talk) 02:00, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree with the ideas of 1. close Gitmo 2. limiting salary to $500k to bailout banks 3. stimulus package 4. Obama health care 5. Speech to Egyptians 6. Afghanistan troop surge followed by a pull out starting 2 years later.
I also add that Obama is against making a decision on the Keystone XL pipeline because it pits his union supporters (for) against his Greenpeace supporters (against). Afghandeaths (talk) 23:09, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
I've added a few details and removed a few unnecessary details from the intro. If you disagree, please discuss it. Don't just remove it. Thank you. Afghandeaths (talk) 23:16, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
- These edits[4] are almost all degradations to the article, and introduce material that has been rejected before as having WP:POV and WP:WEIGHT problems. In some cases they are poorly written or ungrammatical as well. Both these edits[5] are bad - the first removes relevant useful information, the second is unsourced and not immediately relevant to its context (i.e. out of place). This one[6] removes an important biographical and presidential fact. These[7] are not "minor facts" that are being edited out. I'm okay with the removing of the discovery of an early video as biographically important here, [8] so I'll preserve that, but there is no need to repeat the circumstances of his meeting his wife, something that is already mentioned. So one change is reasonable, the rest are rejected as degrading a featured article. I'll also remove the extended cut and paste of an earlier disruptive conversation - linking works better. - Wikidemon (talk) 01:50, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Osama Bin Laden was attacked and killed in May, however the attack was planned in April. The section of the intro should be clarified, because it gives an incorrect statement on his actual death. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick.metcalfe (talk • contribs) 17:15, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Audio link size
The link to President Obama's speech announcing Osama Bin Laden's death seems a bit large. Someone should decrease its size. It's located in the Foreign policy section I would do it, but I don't know how. SMP0328. (talk) 17:27, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Related article that needs improvement
I came across this article The Road We've Traveled and found blantant vandalism that needed to be reverted. Regardless of how you feel about the film, the article could use some improvement and some monitoring from experienced editors. Remember (talk) 18:12, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Edit request on 12 March 2012
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Barack Obama is our first Mulatto president. 69.124.93.51 (talk) 00:12, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
- "Mulatto" is largely viewed as a pejorative slur in the United States. The common term is "African-American" used by reliable sources, so that is what we use here. See FAQ #2 above. Tarc (talk) 00:14, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
- Use obama is black president. Santhosh k (talk) 04:27, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
Obama's descent
Obama is currently categorized as being Irish, Kenyan, Scottish, Swiss, and Welsh. How many of those are correct? SMP0328. (talk) 16:00, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
- Category creep again. I think ALL of those categories should be removed. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:34, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, please do. Everyone had 16 great-great-grandparents (ignoring some very infrequent collusion), and 32 ancestors in the previous generation. There is no encyclopedic value in listing these as there is no reason to believe the nationality of even one's grandparents has much significance for an article like this. Johnuniq (talk) 00:50, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- Done. SMP0328. (talk) 01:00, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, please do. Everyone had 16 great-great-grandparents (ignoring some very infrequent collusion), and 32 ancestors in the previous generation. There is no encyclopedic value in listing these as there is no reason to believe the nationality of even one's grandparents has much significance for an article like this. Johnuniq (talk) 00:50, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
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