Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion

Single-use templates

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I am closing this RfC per the request at WP:ANRFC. There is clear consensus that {{db-t4}} and {{db-oneuse}} should not be included in the criteria for speedy deletion. The CSD criteria should be specific. However, there is a small consensus into expanding the proposed deletion criteria to include this, therefore I suggest that a discussion be opened at WT:PROD, or continue to use WP:TFD. Some templates (for example, {{DR case status}}) are used only for a single purpose. Single-purpose templates are often kept. Therefore, these proposed templates should not be included in the CSD criteria. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 16:18, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

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Proposal to add T4 (Single-use template) as a criterion for speedy deletion. ❤ Yutsi ^Talk/ Contributions ( 偉特 ) 17:54, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

T4. Single-use template

Templates that are intended to be used on only a single page, or are otherwise too specific to be used on more than one page.

• {{db-t4}}, {{db-oneuse}}

• Example 1
• Example 2

"Single-use template" is one of the most common reasons for deletion on WP:TFD, and I really can't think of a reason why it would be necessary to make and template and then transclude it, never to be transcluded again, rather than just insert the wikicode directly. I'd entertain any suggestions to reword it, as I don't really like how I wrote it. I was initially considering integrating this into T3, but thought that doing so would make T3 much too lengthy. The exact criterion above is simply my proposed wording. This RfC should concern whether or not to add a "Single-use template" criterion at all.❤ Yutsi ^Talk/ Contributions ( 偉特 ) 17:51, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

• Comment If a template like that is speedy-deleted, it's quite likely that the editor who created it won't have a copy, and will either have to get it temporarily undeleted or userified or else have to rewrite the whole thing from scratch. Looie496 (talk) 18:07, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I think I see a way to make this work though. Some do the CSD for images have a built-in seven day waiting period. The image is nominated and after seven days it can be deleted. If we did this here it would alleviate the need to have needless discussions backlogging TFD and would also give any interested parties a fair chance to insert the code before it was deleted. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:35, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

• If it were up to me, I'd generally replace deletion with userfication by default project-wide. This should be for speedy substing followed by userfication per WP:BITE, WP:AGF, and just being nice to editors who set out to learn templates. —Cupco 18:36, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

I fail to see where AGF comes into it, nobody is suggesting that such templates are created maliciously. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:05, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - CSD criteria need to be very specific and bullet-proof. It is important that this criterion cannot be reasonably interpreted as applying to any template that has 1 transclusion. Language must be included along the lines of "This criterion only applies to templates that have no significant probability of ever being transcluded to more than one page." If that were the case, I'd probably support it. -Scottywong| gossip _ 18:58, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• Some of our processes use highly specialized templates that may only be transcluded on the process page and have virtually no use outside of that particular page. This proposal as written would subject these templates to speedy deletion, and I can't support that. T. Canens (talk) 19:14, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

• Would you mind giving examples? I don't understand why you couldn't just hard code something into a page rather than make a single-use template. ❤ Yutsi ^Talk/ Contributions ( 偉特 ) 17:21, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
  • See my comment of 20:07, 14 September 2012 below. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:55, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per T. Canens. There are engineering reasons why you may not want a bunch of fragile wikicode dumped in a highly edited page for instance. It may be better in such cases to use transclusion in order to prevent both edit-window clutter and human errors stemming from that. A WP:PROD-like process for templates as suggested by Beeblebrox might work in the uncontroversial cases, but this seems to be wrong place to adopt/enlarge that. Update: I see that template prods were discussed an rejected recently. See also VPT discussion; it looks like a good number of single-use templates survive TfD. This set was given as a recent example and it's exactly along the lines I suspected it would be. Tijfo098 (talk) 20:03, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose See Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2012 April 3#Periodic table infobox templates for a list of over 100 templates, each of which is used on exactly one page with no potential for use elsewhere. There were several good reasons given in the ensuing discussion as to why these are a good thing. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:07, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. I've seen many massive templates that were created to avoid overwhelming a specific page with large amounts of code; {{List of Registered Historic Places in Ohio topnav}} is a good example. It's a very bad idea for anyone to edit this code without meaning to (you could easily make a typo, not realise it in the mass of code, and thus mangle the clickable map without even knowing that you'd changed anything), and the template relieves this problem without causing any problems in return. Moreover, the proposed wording is so much more complicated than most of our criteria; this means that it's sufficiently complex to make speedy deletion an ambiguous situation and thus really not appropriate. Nyttend (talk) 22:49, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose CSD isn't the right way to deal with these, since it isn't always obvious what other uses the template may or may not have. There are also reasons why a single use template could makes sense, per Nyttend. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 23:27, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose as AFD has frequently kept those templates. Agathoclea (talk) 05:37, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

More specific wording

Here is some more specific wording I came up with. This wording would permit templates like {{Infobox actinium}} (which have transclusions of other templates specifically designed for the purpose) while subjecting the two examples the proposer named to speedy deletion under certain conditions. PleaseStand (talk) 20:34, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

T4. Single-use template.

Templates too specific for more than a single use in a single article, when all relevant content (and proper attribution for that content) already exists on that article page, on its talk page, or on a subpage of its talk page. Attribution may be provided in an edit summary or on the talk page. This excludes templates that accept arguments (e.g. {{{1}}}) or consist of other than just hardcoded instances of text, images, and transclusions of other templates primarily intended for direct use in the main namespace (e.g. {{Commons category}}). This excludes templates for use in namespaces other than the main namespace.

• {{db-t4}}, {{db-oneuse}}

• How many templates fitting all of these criteria are actually taken to TfD? Also, "templates primarily intended for direct use in the main namespace" is a recipe for disaster until Special:ReadMind is functional. T. Canens (talk) 20:43, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• Isn't there room for something like PROD to address this issue? —Cupco 20:50, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

• Actually, no: the PROD process itself only applies to mainspace, and there are no comparable processes for other namespaces. Nyttend (talk) 00:10, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

• We are here to discuss a possible improvement to our processes; the rules of PROD are not perpetual & immutable, any more than our list of CSD criteria is. bobrayner (talk) 09:23, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, there was a time when PROD could be used for userspace pages of users with no other edits, and I think there was a time when it could be used for fair-use images. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

• The problem of the first proposal is still here, so oppose. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 21:45, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• The new wording is.... well a bit much for the rough and tumble world of speedy deletion. upon further thought I am also unconvinced this is a common enough problem to warrant a CSD. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:32, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
• Still oppose. Wordy, confusing, dubious usefulness and doesn't address many of the issues. I'm not sure how a big of a problem this is solving. I'm wondering if have a CSD category is a ten dollar solution to a one dollar problem. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 02:10, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. I imagine such templates could be made as a learning excercise in action, and their speedy deletion being extremely unhelpful to the encouragement of new generations of users. I also don't see the new criterion criteria having been addressed. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:01, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose speedy deletion for such templates, but support expanding PROD to include them (and yes, at times PROD did include some other namespaces). עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 20:29, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Single use templates are too circumstantial to ever be a CSD criteria and rare enough that they don't unduly burden TfD. Monty₈₄₅ 15:02, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. Whether a template is used once is objective; whether a template is "too specific for more than a single use in a single article" is very much a judgment call. Often a template that appears at first to have narrow application later proves to enable creative reuse. For example, a navbox that appears to suit only one article may suddenly become useful in multiple articles after that article grows and is split into sub-articles. The fact that the criterion as written encompasses templates which were kept at TfD suggests it is inadequate, and this kind of template is also not common enough to warrant a CSD. Dcoetzee 23:55, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose I'm not convinced you're ever going to have a clear-cut segment of "unquestionably bad" single-use templates, TfD or an extended PROD would be a better fit, given the relative infrequency of the problem and the lack of any need for immediate action. --j⚛e decker^talk 15:33, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
• I think that PROD, or something PROD-like, would be a better channel than CSD if the concerns revolve around usage of templates. If you think a template is redundant because it's just for one article, and nobody else comes along in the next week to disagree, I think that neatly sidesteps the problem of how to word a relatively complex CSD criterion and how to judge usage and intent &c. Also, the template problem isn't an urgent one, so we don't need the very rapid response which CSD often permits. However, part of me wonders whether these templates are such a serious problem that we even need process change to deal with them. bobrayner (talk) 13:04, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose: first, there are templates that are supposed to be used on process pages, and would become eligible for speedy deletion once this proposal is successful (eg. WP:DRN alone uses {{DR case status}}, {{DRN archive bottom}}, {{DRN archive top}}, {{DRN case status}} and {{Drn filing editor}}, all of which are specifically crafted for use on DRN and are not supposed to use elsewhere. Still, even if the proposal was reworded, CSD means that one may tag a template and it gets deleted, so that the code is not placed on a page, but simply removed, which is definitely unwanted. Last, as several TfD discussion about the templates in question were closed as "keep", this criterion is not as uncontroversial as it should be to be included. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 20:41, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
  • Your first 2 objections could be fixed by rewording - we could require that there only be a single use, not a page, and that the template be subst-ed before deletion. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 20:15, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can an Article for creation submission be speedied under an A criteria?

I speedied am article for creation submission under A7. The speedy nomination was removed under the grounds that articles for creation submissions are not yet articles and so cannot be speedied under any A criterium. This particular case Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Catherine Senor is not important, but the interpretation of the rules is interesting to me. There is nothing in the Speedy criteria (or even in Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion/Explanations) that says that a draft that has been submitted for review cannot be speedied under an Article category. It seems an obvious enough possibility that it should have come up before, but I can't find it in a cursory search. If there is a consensus that A category speedy criteria can or cannot be applied to articles for creation then we should probably say so in Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Articles to avoid this problem. I suspect that I have previously speedied other articles for submission under A criteria and that admins have indeed deleted them. Meters (talk) 18:29, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

If you were to read the third paragraph of WP:CSD, it states: "Contributors sometimes create pages over several edits, so administrators should avoid deleting a page that appears incomplete too soon after its creation." What this means is new editors should be given a chance to experience the process of editing, including the AfC reviews. However, if the article in question continues to be re-submitted without any regard to the reviewers' comments, then, by all means, add the Speedy Delete. They must learn why they must add more than two lines before their work disappears. The editor in question had only two edits, both on that article within minutes. — WylieCoyote (talk) 20:36, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you can Ax anything in AfC. There are several "decline" reasons that duplicate CSD criteria such as A1 (No context) and A10 (Recently created article that duplicates an existing topic). Technically, it's in the Wikipedia Talk space, so it's not an "article" in that sense, and plus one of the advantages of AfC (at least as far as I can tell) is that it allows people to learn policy before getting bitten by an unpleasant CSD. Hells bells, I could even, if I was feeling charitable, say that "Editor of T Magazine", provided I can get a good understanding on what T Magazine is with a few seconds of googling, just about pushes it over the "asserting importance" boundary to not be a valid A7. I would have declined the article on Catherine Senor on being of insufficient context. It then stays there, out of the way of article space, until it gets remedied. There is a valid question of what happens to AfC submissions that get declined and sat on - Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Lauren Victoria Skippen being such an example that springs to mind (and only because I thought the submitter was mucking about and threw in a silly joke in the process), but I would only recommend CSDing those if the page creator has clearly abandoned it and lost interest (which I'd measure in months of inactivity, not days). Now, the Gx CSDs are fair game - if you set up blatant spam or attack pages, even in AfC, I'll be happy to CSD those, and indeed I did three myself today. --Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:48, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

As I said, the particular article was unimportant. I have no problem with how the admin handled it. The uncertainty over the interpretation of the rules is my point. WylieCoyote seems to be saying that an Ax speedy could be applied, at least in some situations, but not User:Ritchie333. I'm OK with either interpretation, I just want to know what the concensus is, if there really is one. And I think it should be clarified on Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Articles so everyone is using the same interpretation. Meters (talk) 21:37, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)A prime example is Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/KIRKCOLM PARISH, currently the oldest article in the review queue. It has actually been reviewed but, for reasons unknown remains on the list. The author has already created and developed a duplicate article on the same subject. I tried to find some way of speedy deleting it, but because it is not an article, no criteria fitted. Sionk (talk) 21:40, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I've changed my mind and {{db-a10}}ed that article, as it's fairly obvious nobody will be working on it and the creator has abandoned it. I'm not sure what happens to declined articles if they stay declined (which something marked as "already exists" would unless the submitter can prove it's something different with the same name) - I'd be interested to find out. --Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:06, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Declined submissions join the thousands of others in Category:Declined AfC submissions and Category:AfC submissions by date (which will be for the most part declined submissions or those not submitted review). I can't see that any kind of CSD action is needed for these. France3470 (talk) 22:23, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

AfC:Catherine Senor, AfC:Lauren Victoria Skippen & AfC:KIRKCOLM PARISH are three of the finest examples for this discussion. One is only a few edits old, the second is just silly, and the last is circumventing. The latter two deserved Axing and the first just didn't understand the AfC rules. Ax Speedy should be used at all times for those that don't get AfC submissions. Those that do, get a process before it happens in hopes of newbie training. Perhaps some leniency could be mentioned, but no change in policies, once neglect/abuse and, of course, WP:CREEP is discovered. — WylieCoyote (talk) 23:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Since I was the one who initially spurred this discussion I should probably throw in my thoughts. I have to say I completely disagree with the above suggestion that Ax criteria should be used in these cases, and in fact at all. AFCs are not articles. They are not live and not indexed, which makes them less likely to cause harm than their CSD-candidate counterparts. For the vast majority of cases, tagging an AFC for speedy deletion is unnecessary. It's important to remember that the AFC system is geared towards supporting new contributors, who in most cases haven't much clue about what's acceptable and what isn't. When it comes to the submissions being an attack page, a copyvio or just plain vandalism we should speedy tag without hesitation, but apart from that a decline reason gets across the same message, without being so WP:BITEY. Yes, there are sometimes stubborn cases where a user may persist in resubmitting an unacceptable item without changes, and those might perhaps warrant an exception (see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/2012 3#Repeat submissions, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/2012 3#G11ing submissions where this was discussed previously), however, I tend to find that after a number of declines the message gets across. So looking specifically at the individual criteria I would say G3, G10 and G12 absolutely apply. G11 may apply but perhaps its usage needs clarification (from my experience a huge portion of AFCs start off being very promotional). G1 and G2 shouldn't apply as these are easy declines and tagging is a waste of a reviewing admin's time. G4-G7 I doubt would apply. And since AFCs aren't articles I can't see why Ax criteria should apply when a decline rationale serves the same purpose.France3470 (talk) 00:01, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I had forgotten, but as I just came across it now, it might be worth pointing out that {{Afc cleared}} currently reads "Administrators: Please note that mainspace CSD criteria do not apply to Articles for creation submissions." France3470 (talk) 00:47, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

It also clearly has guidelines for reviewers for "Quick-fail criteria", which consist of: Vandalism or attack page, blank submission, nonsense or test, submission not in English, copyright violation, and already-existing articles. That covers it for me. Anything not AfC is fair game for the Ax, in my opinion as they also fall in that criteria. — WylieCoyote (talk) 02:29, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

• I think that declined AfC pages that would be deleteable in mainspace under the CSD#A criteria should be deleteable after they get old. I think old = 6 months would be agreeable.

  Reasons to delete:

  If CSD#A-failing AfC-declined pages were made in mainspace to start with, they would be be deleted;

  If they were made in userspace, then I am very confident that they would be SNOW deleted at MfD citing WP:STALEDRAFT;

  If it is very old, and fails a CSD#A, it is extremely unlikely to be useful;

  Keeping old useless stuff seems to make some very productive Wikipedians unhappy

  Why wait?

  It's not mainspace, and the user did the right thing in using AfC, and the user is very likely new, and quick deletion is very bitey;

  An early attempt at article writing may have unseen potential;

  There is little actual harm in having recent failed examples in project-talk space. There may be a current-affairs reason for multiple newcomers to want to write the same bad article, and there is no good in quickly hiding this fact. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Whilst we need to delete the badfaith stuff is there any reason to delete these? And yes I know that some people like to keep things tidy, but there are also some people who don't want to delete other people's work. We need to get beyond such arguments to work out whether it makes sense to delete these. No-one has yet quoted figures as to how many AFC declines get revived and reworked on after one two or three years, we need to know that before we can make a meaningful assessment as to whether keeping them is worth the few pence of electicity and server space required. ϢereSpielChequers 08:20, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Deleting articles does not save serverspace. In fact the additional log entry just needs more space. There is absolutely zero benefit to deleting an AFC submission that does not fall under the general speedy deletion criteria. If some editors feel the obsessive need to "clean up" wikipedia, perhaps they should apply themselves to areas where such efforts are actually useful, such as template space and non-free images. Yoenit (talk) 09:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

A9

The wording of A9 states, "An article about a musical recording that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant and where the artist's article does not exist (both conditions must be true). " By "the artist's article does not exist," do obviously speedy-delateable (A7) articles about a band count as "semi-non-existant"? I find that waiting for an article about a band to be deleted before tagging a different page about their music for A9 is incredibly time consuming -- could the criteria not be modified slightly to say "and where the artist's article does not exist or is a tagged obvious case for speedy deletion"? I admit that isn't the best wording - and I'm sure someone else can come up something prettier - but I see no reason to have to sit around waiting for an article to be deleted before being able to tag non-notable musical albums by that band. (I may be missing a clause somewhere for this, and if so - I apologize) Theopolisme 11:18, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

The wording is fine as it refers not to the tagging but to the actual deletion. The album should not be deleted if the artist article is merely tagged and we need to avoid instruction creep. With respect to tagging it's common practice to simply tag both the recording and the artist article. If there is a blue link on the album, the reviewing administrator will need to check in any case that page as well, also to see whether it has been meanwhile crated or recreated or a so far wrong link has been fixed. If the artist's article is indeed an obvious case for speedy deletion usually both will be deleted.--Tikiwont (talk) 20:10, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I very much doubt that if the article about the artist is tagged for speedy deletion, that any admin would decline the A9 on the grounds that an article about the artist exists, unless they decline the deletion of the artisrt's article. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 06:14, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

• • • Allowing an A9 while an A7 is pending is likely to promote gaming the system by having people simply A7 a band's article they might not have tagged otherwise. You could always wait until the band's A7 is taken care of, or on the talk page of the band's page, simply point to the potential A9 album, as the patrolling admin should be reading the talk page anyway. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 13:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, the A9 was indeed intended to mostly take care of albums and the like that stay around after a deletion of some main article, and this logical order needs to be reflected in the wording. Waiting with the tagging for the A7 to be handled is therefore always fine. Whilst 'current practice' is actually too strong a word, it happens that people tag both, and this possibility was already ventilated when A9 was set-up, without the current wording really inviting it, so I'd leave it as is. What incites hasty tagging is still a good question, though. But I've had to ask that myself rarely with the situation described here or rather in the more general sense that people find one speedy candidate and then go on to tag related ones which are less clear. --Tikiwont (talk) 21:19, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I've never seen this as a problem; I did it all the time for about 2 years without a hitch. If a band was formed 3 days ago and has released an "album", there's no possible way either article is going to stay, so there's no point in holding fire. I'm all for caution, but let's not get overly dogmatic about this. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:40, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Dennis Brown, I doubt that gaming the system is likely to be a serious problem. If the band's article isn't A7-able, then it will be reviewed by an admin and be declined. Subsequently, an admin (possibly the same one) will, fairly quickly, decline the A9. Not allowing paralell tagging of both makes deleting A9s likely to take more time - and with the number of clear speedy pages where I have seen "Please leave this for an other hour/day/week", this time makes gaming the system more problematic, IMO. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:49, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Category:CSD reference templates

I created all (or most?) of these six years ago under an old account, and they never seem to have gotten any significant use. A search uncovers very few substitutions or transclusions, although an admin did try to use {{csdref-g6}} in a couple deletion log entries. Is anyone still using or planning to use these templates, or can they be safely substituted and deleted? I would have listed these at WP:TFD, but that page said discussions about policy-related templates do not belong there. PleaseStand (talk) 03:42, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

I've looked at your links and don't really understand their point. Could you explain a little about what you intended them to do? Nyttend (talk) 06:41, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Sometimes in an AfD, RfD, or other deletion discussion, an editor believes one or more of the CSD apply and the nominator could have just added a speedy deletion tag. Let's say an editor were to notice an RfD for "Temporary move". Here are a few possible ways to write the same comment regarding the matter:

1. Speedy delete G6 Example (talk) 20:08, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
2. Speedy delete as housekeeping (CSD G6). Example (talk) 20:08, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
3. Speedy delete per WP:CSD#G6. This is just a leftover redirect from a (perhaps unnecessary) page move, and deleting it would qualify as "uncontroversial maintenance". Example (talk) 20:08, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

No. 2 uses {{subst:csdref-g6}} to create "housekeeping (CSD G6)", which is clearer than No. 1 to new Wikipedians unfamiliar with our deletion processes (as is No. 3). However:

• The templates oversimplify the CSD. (What if the "housekeeping" is controversial in nature?)
• Simple links to relevant criteria may be sufficient (e.g. "WP:CSD#G6").
• Some of the templates, such as "unremarkable subject (CSD A7)" and "suspected copyright infringement (CSD I9)", are just plainly misleading.

Since use of the templates is extremely rare, there's no point in improving the wording, updating it to match the actual CSD. I also question my original premise that each criterion can be accurately summarized in a single short sentence. PleaseStand (talk) 20:08, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I agree we do not need them. TfD is pretty obscure, but there has to be some place--I've been saying for some time we should merge it with MfD, and perhaps Cfd, to get adequate discussion. MfD routinely discusses whether something affects policy DGG ( talk ) 05:32, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

As obscure as TfD is, this talk page may be even more obscure, so I have gone ahead and nominated the templates there. I noticed the wording in the TfD header changed a while ago, seemingly without discussion, so cases such as these may be well within the scope of TfD. For those who believe these sorts of discussions must appear on this talk page, you can consider this section to be your notice. PleaseStand (talk) 22:27, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

G4

Just a clarifying question, really, to test opinions about where the intended boundaries of G4 are; I'll give a set of hypothetical cases and ask whether each should be G4-able.

1. A page deleted after a deletion discussion, re-created with similar but not identical text and one extra source not considered during the AfD.
2. A page deleted after a deletion discussion, re-created with similar but not identical text and two or three extra sources not considered during the AfD.
3. A page deleted after a deletion discussion, re-created with similar but not identical text and quite different sources, BUT in the reviewing administrator's opinion those sources don't overcome the reasons for deletion established in the AfD.
4. A page deleted after a deletion discussion, re-created with some similar text but other new text, with different sources, BUT in the reviewing administrator's opinion those sources don't overcome the reasons for deletion established in the AfD.

Thanks in advance for your views.—S Marshall T/C 08:41, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Presumably in all these cases you're referring to an article deleted for failing WP:N (or one of her bastard stepchildren). I'm not sure how to answer it, because it assumes a lot of things I don't buy into, I think (the questions are phrased very strangly to me, anyhow).

The very short of it is: The relevant question is whether the changes address the rationale for deletion. In case 1. if the article was deleted as it was only sourced to the person's blog, and the new extra source is their facebook page, yes, I apply the G4. If the new extra source is a New York Times profile, no, I don't apply the G4. And so on (i.e., in the second case, + 45 wordpress blogs doesn't address "fails WP:N", while one article in Nature does). So I guess for 1 and 2 it's "These questions don't specify relevant details, and are unanswerable", and in 3 and 4 it's "delete, but pre-emptively offer DRV", though I'd change the woridng "don't overcome" to "no one would reasonably think overcome" - i.e., only if it's not close. WilyD 09:00, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

• Sorry for the un-clarity there, but I think you've provided the exact answer I needed. I think you're saying that with a G4 deletion where new sources are presented, the deleting administrator can and should evaluate those sources, on his own authority and without input from the community. Is that right?—S Marshall T/C 09:23, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

• Well, or her own authority, but only apply G4 where the deletion discussion still unambiguously applies. Don't ask yourself "Do I think these new sources are sufficient?" but "Could a reasonable editor find these new sources to be sufficient?". WilyD 09:45, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I think WilyD has it just right. The question is whether it's worth a new discussion. This said, 80 or 90% of re-creations do not show any measurable improvement. and can be deleted by G4 without any ambiguity. DGG ( talk ) 05:22, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

What I don't really like about this is that it makes sysops arbiters of sources (which is a content decision). I'd always taken the view that only the community is authorised to make content decisions, so new sources would have to mean a new discussion.—S Marshall T/C 08:18, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

That would lead to absurdity. If someone recreated an article exactly the same as a previous version except with the addition of a link to the subject's Facebook profile then the article would have to be sent through a new AfD. The deleting admin should be generous when evaluating a G4 request: if there's something in the article that they think a new AfD might decide demonstrates notability then the article shouldn't be deleted under G4. The standard isn't whether the reviewing admin happens to agree that the addition demonstrates notability. Hut 8.5 09:40, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I should have said "substantially new sources would have to mean a new discussion". The addition of one or two trivial sources wouldn't... in the case that prompted this question, there were substantially new sources. But I appear to be off-base and it seems to be normal for administrators to evaluate sources on their own authority, alarming though that is.—S Marshall T/C 09:46, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

If the issue was notability, the addition of a single reliable source invalidates the previous AfD. Well, that's shorthand, but not exactly right--it renders the new article sufficiently different from the old one that G4 won't apply to it, and a new deletion discussion, if desired, is in order. Of course, anything can be abused if done in excess, and an editor who kept re-creating an article in rapid succession with only one additional reliable source each time would be both counterproductive (he should put all the best evidence forward) and possibly disrputive editing. Articles deleted under other criteria would be far less clear-cut, of course, but should still be subject to a new discussion when an editor has made a good-faith effort to address the issue and believes it has been remedied. Jclemens (talk) 05:05, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Pretty much apart from U1 (and maybe one or two I'm forgetting), all the CSD require some level of admin discretion in applying them. A7 requires an assessment of what's a plausible assertion of significance, and G11 requires an assessment of whether something's blatant advertising and whether it requires a fundamental rewrite to be encyclopaedic. Both are probably far more problematic in this regard than the occasional G4 where someone says "No, adding a facebook page as a source doesn't address a fails WP:N close." If a particular case was fucked up (which happens - we all fuck up from time to time - at least, I hope it's not just me), maybe it's better to discuss a particular case? WilyD 07:24, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Even U1 requires admin discretion, first to ensure that it's not a talk page, second to ensure that the {{db-u1}} really was placed by the user (for example, this was not a U1 but might well have been). --Redrose64 (talk) 14:01, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't call that "discretion" though. Yes, the admin needs to check certain things, but those are all objective and requires no judgment. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 16:06, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

• I agree with the language of WilyD, use the standard of "Could a reasonable editor find these new sources to be sufficient?" and leave it to admin discretion to apply that standard. A hard and fast rule about X new sources is likely to be gamed unproductively. And there is always WP:DRV to review the admins discretion. Monty₈₄₅ 15:03, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry to WilyD for messing up copying his username and pasting what was in my clipboard over it. Monty₈₄₅ 15:43, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

permissions-enwikimedia.org

This page appears to be the talk page for {{di-no permission-notice}}. Could the {{nospam}} template be dropped? It breaks copying & pasting of the e-mail address using some web browsers. I sometimes get complaints that a file I've tagged with {{subst:npd}} has been deleted, although an e-mail has been sent to "permissions-enwikimedia.org" (with no sign). The {{nospam}} template was dropped from similar pages on Commons following the discussion at Commons:Commons:Village pump/Archive/2012/08#OTRS email address: spam the "@" sign, and the need for a reliable email address, but remains in the Wikipedia talkpage notification template. --Stefan2 (talk) 17:35, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

 Done MBisanz ^talk 17:59, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

I made a proposal a while back to completwly get rid of the no spam email gimmick as it seems to cause more problems than it solves, but unfortunately very few users bothered to comment and it never went anywhere. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:56, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Multiple URLs for G12

How do I put more than one url into the G12 template for say an article which is copied from two pages. --Anbu121 (talk me) 16:26, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

In the rare cases where I've needed more than one URL in an F9 or G12 request, I've just separated the URLs by space, or included them as wiki markup: "http://www.example.com/ http://www.example.org/ http://www.example.net/" or "[http://www.example.com/][http://www.example.org/][http://www.example.net/]". --Stefan2 (talk) 16:32, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I just write it out as prose: "http://www.google.com/ and http://www.yahoo.com/", or "http://www.example.com/bio and various other subpages". VernoWhitney (talk) 17:01, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I have also done the same, but the Duplicate detector report doesn't work in such cases. --Anbu121 (talk me) 17:13, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, you can always try fixing up the template to handle multiple URLs, or you could just accept that in such cases any review must be done by either going to http://toolserver.org/~dcoetzee/duplicationdetector/ directly and then entering in the multiple URLs one by one or just clicking on the links themselves and looking at them in person. <shrug>

Reviews should really be done by going to the site(s) directly anyways to confirm that it's not a mirror or apparent reverse copyvio or freely licensed or any of a number of other reasons that it shouldn't be deleted under G12. VernoWhitney (talk) 18:18, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Foreign language redirects

Of late there have been a slew of foreign language redirects at RfD; currently we have a bunch at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2012 September 24, and there were a bunch of discussions that can be found using this search (most of them cited a discussion about a bunch of redirects to Selena Gomez). I know of discussions back to January 2011, and I'm sure if I searched harder I could find more. My proposal is to explicitly include foreign language redirects (either in R3 or a new criterion) here. To be clear, I am specifically not talking about redirects that have sort of connection to the subject; 日本酒 and nihonshu (the romaji) are redirected to sake, and Les Trois Mousquetaires is redirected to The Three Musketeers because they're plausible search terms (sake being a Japanese drink, and The Three Musketeers being a story originally written in French). However, to use a not-so-hypothetical example, it's completely unnecessary to redirect 셀레나 고메즈 to Selena Gomez, as Gomez is an American actress who doesn't have any connection whatsoever to Korean. It's very easy to determine such a connection from looking at an article, and if properly worded to only include the latter the chances of this being abused are very minimal.
These sorts of redirects have never, to my knowledge, been kept at RfD in recent years, and the consensus on that has been very strong. In addition, they increase the chances of harm being done. Very few people on en.wiki can read or speak any given foreign language, so add to an example I've used, anyone quickly scanning a list of redirects will immediately see Will Smith is a fag → Will Smith or Fuzbaka Ulana → United States, but it's much less likely they'll see クソボケ　→　Will Smith or　新幹線の食べ物　→ English (I hate making an example out of John Doe all the time, so I like to mix it up with names; as for what the Japanese means, if you don't know use jisho.org), nor will someone be likely to notice if one of these is retargeted to a completely irrelevant subject. I'm not up for trying to pound out exact wording at the moment, because I first want to see if people even think this is a good idea, but if people think it's worth trying I'll work on it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:52, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

This is not a good idea, as it is nontrivial for admins not understanding the language (or unable to read the script) to determine whether a foreign language redirect is appropriate as a possible search term or not. CSD criteria should be obvious for admins with zero knowledge of the subject and language. —Kusma (t·c) 10:18, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I understand that to a point, but I really don't think one needs to be a linguist to recognize that ニューヨーク → New York or ojciec → father aren't in any way plausible search terms in English. I honestly can't think of an example where reading the article the redirect points to would make it obvious whether the redirect is useful (similar to the way G4 works; if you see the discussion/deleted article it's immediately evident whether or not sufficient changes have been made to prevent it from being deleted per G4). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:37, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I am not convinced that people would figure out that 国父 is a decent possible redirect to Sun Yat-sen (it is the Simplified Chinese form of a much-used honorific). Or that 高德纳 is really Donald Knuth's Chinese name (okay, that one is easy from his webpage). Having people who speak the language in question look over it should really be a requirement before deletion IMHO. —Kusma (t·c) 12:04, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Kusma; even the most language savvy users here could not possibly be able to judge every case. Lectonar (talk) 12:13, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

I think that 国父 would be covered under "the language having some connection to the subject"; a Chinese-language redirect to Sun Yat-sen would indeed require an RfD. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:47, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

The consensus not to keep such redirects is quite weak, really only possible because RFD is poorly populated. Including it here doesn't serve any purpose other than an end run around discussions which're likely to overturn a bad and pointless precedent in the forseeable future. WilyD 14:56, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

From what I've seen, you're basically a group of one in these RfDs; that's not a problem, but also not enough to state that the consensus is quite weak. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:59, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, there's maybe four editors who support deletion, which is unsupported by policy and antithetical to the goal of creating an encyclopaedia - it's more or less the result of RfD being poorly trafficed, which is why the whims of new page patrollers are being prioritised over the needs of the readership - because so few people paying attention. So yes, I'd call it weak - certainly not appropriate for CSD. WilyD 20:50, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

• The consensus to remove such redirects when they have no connection with the subject is not weak, the discussions are only weakly populated because almost everyone assumes this as a matter of course. Blade, we've settled this some time ago. Still, they need to be listed, because of the impossibility of admins being able to judge individually--they need to be displayed so people can see them. Nobody who does not actually understand the language issues for a particular case should be listing them for discussion, or deleting them. It is much too easy to make an error. DGG ( talk ) 03:46, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

  Perhaps my archive search-fu wasn't working too well, because I couldn't locate any other serious discussion on this; I apologize if I'm attempting to resurrect long-settled matters. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:00, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

F4

1. Is it appropriate to tag files as F4, if they explain in plain text, what the source is, but doesn't use the template? I've seen several old files tagged with F4, but if someone were to read the file page, they would understand what the source was.
2. Should files be tagged with F4, when the image in question is clearly over 200 years old? (such as photos of people who died over 200 years ago, or buildings destroyed over 200 years ago) Shouldn't this go to FFD instead of going through F4?
3. Should files be tagged with F4 if they have the fairuse template? Whether a source is indicated or not, we are using the file under fairuse restrictions, so I would think the file should go to FFD instead of F4.

-- 70.50.149.56 (talk) 00:04, 10 October 2012 (UTC)