Talk:Barack Obama: Difference between revisions
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:*He's been "openly criticized as a totalitarian, a socialist, a fascist, and other labels for authoritarian philosophies" only by low information voters (morons, basically) and right-wing ideologues. You can seemingly conflicting labels like "weak" and "dictatorial" to this ludicrous list of yours, if you wish. |
:*He's been "openly criticized as a totalitarian, a socialist, a fascist, and other labels for authoritarian philosophies" only by low information voters (morons, basically) and right-wing ideologues. You can seemingly conflicting labels like "weak" and "dictatorial" to this ludicrous list of yours, if you wish. |
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:All of these are simply nonsense, and including such limp-wristed garbage in this article would make Wikipedia into a laughing stock. There's already a [http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page wiki to satisfy your needs], and I respectfully suggest you take this stuff to there instead. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 19:49, 7 April 2014 (UTC) |
:All of these are simply nonsense, and including such limp-wristed garbage in this article would make Wikipedia into a laughing stock. There's already a [http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page wiki to satisfy your needs], and I respectfully suggest you take this stuff to there instead. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 19:49, 7 April 2014 (UTC) |
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::There's nothing fictitious about the events I'm describing. They were all widely reported in plenty of reliable sources. |
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::*The IRS targeting scandal was factual enough to get its own [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_IRS_scandal Wikipedia article]. If it's good enough for Wikipedia, it's good enough for Wikipedia. So why do you refuse to allow these crucial facts about Obama's presidency to be placed on Obama's Wiki page? |
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::*The Obama administration "knowingly misled the country" about Benghazi, according to the reliable sources cited on the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benghazi_scandal#Investigation Benghazi scandal Wiki article]. Why shouldn't such a significant event in his presidency be included on his page? |
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::*Executive overreach, like taking us to war in Libya without Congressional approval, like changing by decree the legislatively-established dates of implementation for Obamacare, like the [https://www.google.com/search?q=obama+unconstitutional+number+of+rulings&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=np&source=hp plethora] of unconstitutional actions he has taken while in office. Why shouldn't such significant, abuses of power, recognized by the Supreme Court, be mentioned on this page? |
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::*The Patriot Act did not apply to US citizens. Obama's version of the PRISM program spies on everyone. Even if you dispute this version of events, why shouldn't the fact that Obama has operated the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%29 largest domestic surveillance program in history] be included on this page? |
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::*Racially motivated comments, like those on [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-trayvon-martin-could-have-been-me-35-years-ago/ Trayvon Martin], or his new [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/us/politics/obama-will-announce-initiative-to-empower-young-black-men.html race-based preferences program]. |
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::*Really? I think in light of all of the above, the fact that Obama has been widely, and quite accurately criticized as a [totalitarian] is quite relevant to his historical identity. |
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::So why are you against including these facts in an article that's supposed to represent a neutral view of the history of Obama, and not just the cleansed version that his campaign staff want the world to see? |
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::[[User:TBSchemer|TBSchemer]] ([[User talk:TBSchemer|talk]]) 03:36, 8 April 2014 (UTC) |
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== Legacy of first term == |
== Legacy of first term == |
Revision as of 03:36, 8 April 2014
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Frequently asked questions
Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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FY 2015 budget request
Hi! On March 4, 2014, Obama submitted his fiscal year 2015 budget request to Congress. I've started an article about it - President Obama's fiscal year 2015 budget proposal. I was hoping other editors would be interested in improving the page and wanted to invite you to do so. I was also hoping to get other editors' input on how to insert a link or two to the article on this page, possibly in the section about economic policy? It could be something simple like:
- President Barack Obama submitted his fiscal year 2015 budget request for $3.9 trillion to Congress on March 4, 2014.[1]
Or longer with more information about what is in the proposal (there is a ton of relevant material that could be used), like:
- President Barack Obama submitted his fiscal year 2015 budget request for $3.9 trillion to Congress on March 4, 2014.[1] The president's budget proposal was described as a "populist wish list."[2] Some of the proposed programs include more spending on pre-school education, tax credits for childless low-income workers, and most than $1 trillion in new and higher taxes.[1] The President's proposal was also considered a "playbook" for Democrats' "election-year themes of creating jobs and narrowing the income gap between rich and poor."[1]
As I said, there is a lot of material - defense spending, taxes, education, etc - that could be included. Does anyone have any comments on what they think this should say or where in the article it should appear? Thanks! HistoricMN44 (talk) 17:56, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Image description
Before someone ends up blocked for WP:3RR... Shouldn't the alt text at least identify Obama by name? --NeilN talk to me 19:16, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- I went to WP:ALT to see exactly what the purpose of it is, but it doesn't seem to be clear on whether it should be written for an audience text-readers or for the blind, or both. So I'm not really sure atm which way this should go. Tarc (talk) 19:35, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- Ditto. Read it and it is unclear, and different from wheat was explained earlier. Dave Dial (talk) 19:47, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- Look at Wikipedia:ALT#Importance_of_context and the Blair/Bush example? --NeilN talk to me 19:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- WP:ALT is not clear, so can we try a little common sense here? Seems right that alt text should physically describe the individual to benefit vision-impaired people, but there's no reason to leave off the person's name, nor does it have to be dumbed down. Why not say something like "Barack Obama, a middle-aged African American male, smiling and standing with his hands folded in front of a desk and two flags. He is a wearing a navy blue suit and a light blue tie with white dots." Tvoz/talk 01:24, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
- Look at Wikipedia:ALT#Importance_of_context and the Blair/Bush example? --NeilN talk to me 19:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
- Ditto. Read it and it is unclear, and different from wheat was explained earlier. Dave Dial (talk) 19:47, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Cultural and political image
Regarding the sentence that says: "According to November 2013 polls, Obama's average approval rating fell to 41%, thus setting a new low for the president." This seems a bit out of place the way it is in this section. Wouldn't it make more sense to put this right after the sentence talking about his poll numbers after his second inauguration? The rest of the section details his image in foreign countries, so the sentence seems kind of wonky the way it is now. Twyfan714 (talk) 03:05, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Interesting Facts
Barack Obama was born the year of the first freedom ride and was two years old when Martin Luther King gave his I have a dream speech. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.165.48.129 (talk) 09:19, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
- So was my mother as they are the same age >3 months apart. Doubt my mother or Obama will remember MLK's speech from that time. Somchai Sun (talk) 10:53, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
- Also, even if he was old enough to remember the speech it would not be very relevant for an article about Obama as a person.--70.49.72.34 (talk) 19:20, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
No Critical Views Allowed
I just spent an hour skimming the Wiki articles of each president the US has had. These articles typically refer to actions, responses, and policies of the president, along with a description of how these events were received by the public, and how the president's popularity was affected. Notably, the article on Barack Obama is missing any information about the critical response many of his actions have received. This article reads like a campaign website, listing all of his "achievements" along with far too many legislative details, with little information about the history of how these things happened, or what resulted from them.
Of note, the section on the 2010 midterms is a single sentence, and omits any mention of WHY Obama was so unpopular in 2010, and about how his 2010 legislative policies were received. The section on the 2012 elections omits any mention of HOW he won the election, or what sort of campaign message he was leveling against his opponent. The section on "health care reform" mentions far too many legislative details (that could easily be gleaned by reading the page on PPACA), while omitting any mention of what sort of criticisms were leveled against the policy, how it has affected Obama's popularity, or how the implementation of the new health care system was handled.
Furthermore, there is no mention of the IRS targeting scandal, the Benghazi scandal, the many court cases against Obama's executive overreach, the fact that Obama was held in contempt by a federal court, the fact that Obama created the largest and most intrusive domestic surveillance operation in human history, his racially-motivated comments and policies, or the fact that he has been so widely and openly criticized as a totalitarian, a socialist, a fascist, and other labels for authoritarian philosophies. These types of facts are a major focus of the articles for previous presidents, and were certainly a dominant component of the page on George W. Bush during his presidency.
The level of president-saluting sterilization in this article is positively Orwellian. TBSchemer (talk) 00:00, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
As an example of this Orwellian cleansing, I included a series of polls showing that Obama is "the most divisive and polarizing president in history" in the first-term legacy section, and the change was rapidly reverted by Tarc. This leaves the section as a paragraph of praise from academics, with little general-public polling data. The reversion can be viewed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&diff=603081323&oldid=603080058 TBSchemer (talk) 01:01, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Far too much of your own politics is on display in those posts for your comments to be considered in any way as objective and constructive suggestions for improving the article. HiLo48 (talk) 01:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oh I've tried to point out the many flaws in this article over the years and to no avail. I hope you have better luck than I did, or better than the countless accounts that have been blocked or banned over the years for pointing this out as well. JOJ Hutton 02:10, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- If someone came here with a clearly neutral point of view and made explicit, non-POV suggestions for improving the article, they might get somewhere. That is not the case with this thread. HiLo48 (talk) 02:21, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- HiLo48, your dislike of people's politics is not an argument. If you can't respond to his points you don't need to respond. —Designate (talk) 02:27, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- If someone came here with a clearly neutral point of view and made explicit, non-POV suggestions for improving the article, they might get somewhere. That is not the case with this thread. HiLo48 (talk) 02:21, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oh I've tried to point out the many flaws in this article over the years and to no avail. I hope you have better luck than I did, or better than the countless accounts that have been blocked or banned over the years for pointing this out as well. JOJ Hutton 02:10, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- You have no idea what my political views are, and that's precisely how it should be. During the most recent presidential election campaign I was attacked by supports of both major candidates as being a supporter of the other side. I was proud of that. TBSchemer's political views are far too obvious. HiLo48 (talk) 02:37, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Do you have any reasonable objection to the inclusion of this poll or not? TBSchemer (talk) 02:50, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- HiLo48, this page is for discussing the article. He's discussing the article. You're discussing him. There's no policy that requires people to pretend not to have opinions and there never has been, so your complaints belong in another forum. —Designate (talk) 02:52, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- I object to most opinion polling most of the time. People generally only want them added if they think they support their political position. The only way in which they could ever be included, IMHO, is when the precise question(s) that were asked are listed, and no editorial interpretation is made of the results. That's clearly not the case here. I suspect that the word "polarizing" was never part of the poll. As an example of misinterpretation, it could be argued that Republicans hated Obama because he was doing such a good job it made it harder for them to get rid of him. I actually don't know. Do you? So, if you must include polls.... Present the question(s). Present the results. And stop there. Better still, ignore mid-term polls. They prove nothing. HiLo48 (talk) 03:14, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- But if you object to most opinion polling, then doesn't that mean you also object to the polls of academics that already comprise the entire section we're discussing? Would you rather have that whole section removed? What about the need to describe the public response to the president's most influential policies, as is done in all the articles for every previous president? TBSchemer (talk) 03:44, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I'd be happy to see most of that polling stuff gone. It looks like cherry-picking anyway. If you can find a very well run poll that truly describes the public (Which public?) response to the president's most influential policies (How will you decide which they are?), maybe we can discuss its inclusion, but only in the way I described above. Precise question(s) listed. No editorial interpretation. HiLo48 (talk) 03:53, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Give me a break. The edit was clearly a partisan WP:POV edit. Designate, you should take your own advice. We are not, with Wikipedia's voice, making the claims that TBSchemer wants in the article. Orwellian sterilization.....Come on now. Dave Dial (talk) 03:56, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- So you refuse to have any critical views included in the article on Barack Obama? You want the page to remain a discussion of how many accomplishments Obama has achieved, and how many people he has insured, and how good were the intentions of his bailout, and how many university professors he has impressed, with no mention of the results of his policies, the public response, his impact on partisan polarization, or any of his many scandals? The article, as it stands right now, is horribly WP:POV, representing the views of those who voted for the guy, while selectively omitting the facts understood by those who didn't. TBSchemer (talk) 04:10, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
So does anyone here have an interest in seeing this article become more of a historical account and less of a campaign page, or am I the only one? TBSchemer (talk) 15:59, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- I reject your assertion that the article reads like a "campaign page". I think part of the problem here is that you seem to want to shoehorn ficticious, non-existent "scandals" and right-wing garbage into the article:
- The IRS "targeted" all political groups equally, as is part of their remit.
- Benghazi was a tragedy, not a scandal. Everything was done that could be done, and there was no coverup.
- "Executive overreach" is a right-wing canard. Obama has exercised his right to issue executive orders on far fewer occasions than recent presidents (including Bush).
- "The largest and most intrusive domestic surveillance operation in human history" was created by George W. Bush.
- What racially motivated comments/policies?
- He's been "openly criticized as a totalitarian, a socialist, a fascist, and other labels for authoritarian philosophies" only by low information voters (morons, basically) and right-wing ideologues. You can seemingly conflicting labels like "weak" and "dictatorial" to this ludicrous list of yours, if you wish.
- All of these are simply nonsense, and including such limp-wristed garbage in this article would make Wikipedia into a laughing stock. There's already a wiki to satisfy your needs, and I respectfully suggest you take this stuff to there instead. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:49, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- There's nothing fictitious about the events I'm describing. They were all widely reported in plenty of reliable sources.
- The IRS targeting scandal was factual enough to get its own Wikipedia article. If it's good enough for Wikipedia, it's good enough for Wikipedia. So why do you refuse to allow these crucial facts about Obama's presidency to be placed on Obama's Wiki page?
- The Obama administration "knowingly misled the country" about Benghazi, according to the reliable sources cited on the Benghazi scandal Wiki article. Why shouldn't such a significant event in his presidency be included on his page?
- Executive overreach, like taking us to war in Libya without Congressional approval, like changing by decree the legislatively-established dates of implementation for Obamacare, like the plethora of unconstitutional actions he has taken while in office. Why shouldn't such significant, abuses of power, recognized by the Supreme Court, be mentioned on this page?
- The Patriot Act did not apply to US citizens. Obama's version of the PRISM program spies on everyone. Even if you dispute this version of events, why shouldn't the fact that Obama has operated the largest domestic surveillance program in history be included on this page?
- Racially motivated comments, like those on Trayvon Martin, or his new race-based preferences program.
- Really? I think in light of all of the above, the fact that Obama has been widely, and quite accurately criticized as a [totalitarian] is quite relevant to his historical identity.
- So why are you against including these facts in an article that's supposed to represent a neutral view of the history of Obama, and not just the cleansed version that his campaign staff want the world to see?
- TBSchemer (talk) 03:36, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
- There's nothing fictitious about the events I'm describing. They were all widely reported in plenty of reliable sources.
Legacy of first term
In the previous thread, there was a proposal agreed upon by at least two people to remove this section entirely, on the grounds that it consists entirely of cherry-picked polls, and polls are difficult to represent fairly in a WP:NPOV way. Do we have consensus on this proposal? TBSchemer (talk) 04:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- No. HiLo48 (talk) 04:59, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Why not? I thought you were the one who initially argued that polls probably shouldn't be in the article? TBSchemer (talk) 05:41, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Why not? Because I'm sick of your shallow, POV ridden misrepresentation of sources, and now me. I said "I'd be happy to see most of that polling stuff gone." You now say that I've agreed with you to remove this section entirely. There is a significant difference. HiLo48 (talk) 06:29, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Which polls would you keep, and which would you throw out? TBSchemer (talk) 06:31, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Why not? Because I'm sick of your shallow, POV ridden misrepresentation of sources, and now me. I said "I'd be happy to see most of that polling stuff gone." You now say that I've agreed with you to remove this section entirely. There is a significant difference. HiLo48 (talk) 06:29, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- Why not? I thought you were the one who initially argued that polls probably shouldn't be in the article? TBSchemer (talk) 05:41, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
- ^ a b c d Fram, Alan (4 March 2014). "Obama 2015 budget focuses on boosting economy". Yahoo! News. Retrieved 19 March 2014.
- ^ Calmes, Jackie (4 March 2014). "Obama's Budget Is a Populist Wish List and an Election Blueprint". The New York Times. Retrieved 19 March 2014.
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