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Duct tape for warts?

Duct tape occlusion therapy discusses a "home remedy" for warts. It is an ambiguous discussion about duct tapes, which come in hundreds of varieties. There has been some material in medical publications but it seems to me to be to be very incomplete. Problems abound:

• The article talks about "regular" duct tape: there is no such thing. There are "standard" duct tapes that conform with technical specifications such as ASTM D5486/D5486M-06(2012) Standard Specification for Pressure-Sensitive Tape for Packaging, Box Closure, and Sealing, Type IV; these are usually for government use. Reasonable medical research would also go far beyond this and ask about the specific type of rubber in the adhesive: butadiene-styrene, butyl, polyisobutylene, nitrile compounds, isoprene, etc. What was the chemical composition of the tackifier? Does residual organic solvent play a part in the possible medical effects?
• What is the mechanism of the observed effects? Is it chemical or just the covering of an Occlusive dressing?
• Many of the listed sources seem questionable in light of Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine). Solid secondary sources (reviews) are required. Please check these.
• Typical hardware-store duct tapes are not hypoallergenic nor latex-free. These tapes are not manufactured under the Good Manufacturing Practices required for all other medical products. The formulation and processing of these tapes are not controlled to have any uniform medical properties. It is not kept sanitary. It is not a medical product. By contrast, surgical tapes have closely controlled manufacturing as required by regulations.

Assistance would be appreciated here. Grantmidnight (talk) 23:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Reading that article, strongly suspect there has been a lot of OR and POV editing going on. The story basically reads like this: "The first study said it worked better than cryotherapy, but then all the later studies failed to replicate these results, but the later studies are all lies". Lesion 07:21, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I have reworked the article a bit, basing the lead on the highest quality source (latest cochrane review). There may be a case for merging into the main article wart now, which would prevent the article going wandering into POV/OR land as more editors would be able to easily keep an eye on it there. I am always in favor of discussing one possible treatment in the context of all the other options anyway.

I note the category "alternative medical treatments" is placed on this article, while at no point in the article does the suggestion that it is alt med occur. If it is Alt med we should mention this prominently in the lead. If there are no sources which state it is alt med, then that category should be removed. One source does call it alt med. Lesion 08:43, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• • Thank you. Grantmidnight (talk) 13:54, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Outstanding work on that, Lesion. TJRC (talk) 23:50, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Pharmatutor

User:Pharmaraj is adding refs to this journal [1]. Not sure if it is reliable but does not appear to be pubmed indexed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:02, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Looks less like a journal than a blog. Oh yeah, and the ISSN given on the website doesn't exist. Not a good sign. Jinkinson talk to me 14:19, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

ISSN 2347 - 7881 is exist — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pharmaraj (talk • contribs) 19:17, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

@Pharmaraj: If so, then I must have formatted the URL wrong. Do you know how I would access the WorldCat listing? Jinkinson talk to me 19:22, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

@Jinkinson: that i dont know but you may check issn listing on Indian Issn website on: http://nsl.niscair.res.in/issn.jsp

There one link is available, where you may see ISSN listing: http://nsl.niscair.res.in/RecentlyAssignedISSN.xls — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pharmaraj (talk • contribs) 19:48, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

It however is not pubmed indexed which raises concerns. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:06, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

@Jmh649:Dear Doc James, you are right that it is not indexed in pubmed. But Pubmed indexing is possible only after 12 months of accessibility (minimum after total 12 issues release). And PharmaTutor has completed total 6 issues at this stage. But PharmaTutor is indexed in Google Scholar & CAS.

It's a content managed site using Drupal, a bit messy with its metatags, which is often a sign of an amateur publication. I'm not encouraged by the popup adverts that it tries to serve either. The February 2014 issue claims to be "Volume 2, Issue 2", which begs the question of why there are only 6 issues completed - I assume then that there just 4 issues to a volume? In that case, it will be another 18 months before 12 issues are complete. Perhaps by that time, it will have earned "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" that we require from our reliable sources - and we can revisit the question of whether it's usable as a source then. In the meantime, I wouldn't be happy seeing it used a source for medical articles. --RexxS (talk) 15:07, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Dear RexxS - Meta-tags are served as per google scholar need. And 1st issue was published in Nov 13 which was (Vol1, Issue1)..likewise 2nd in Dec 13 which was (Vol1, Issue 2).. And afterwards for 2014.. Jan 14 (Vol.2 Issue.1), for feb 14 (Vol.2 Issue.2), for Mar 14 (Vol.2 Issue.3), for Apr 14 (Vol.2 Issue.4), and very soon on 1st may it will release (Vol.2 Issue.5).. So each Volume will have 12 issues. Reputed & Higher level professionals from India are in PharmaTutor's advisory panel. You may check it on: http://magazine.pharmatutor.org (talk)

No. Google scholar doesn't need you to duplicate the Content-Type metatag. It's only a small point, but indicative of a lack of attention to detail that warns us about the quality control on the site. We're not looking for an advisory board, but a policy of editorial oversight and peer-review. We need confidence in the quality of the articles published, not the quality of the advice that you're getting. --RexxS (talk) 14:58, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Sharing health media

an English language poster for patients about antibiotics

the same poster translated to Spanish

Many health organizations which do educational outreach produce various types of media to reach different audiences. I feel that one thing health organizations should do to reach their audience is to appoint staff to manage health outreach through Wikipedia in accord with Wikipedia community policy and as peers to any other Wikipedia contributors.

Beyond Wikipedia, the Internet gives potential for distributing all kinds of health educational materials through many channels. A perennially popular channel is in paper printings of information through posters, brochures, or one-page summaries. One might expect that if some health organization or group wished to do health educational outreach then it would be easy for them to borrow a health publication from another group and then develop it for their local audience and redistribute it. However, you may also know that health organizations are very hesitant about allowing the media they produce and distribute to be shared in channels like Wikipedia where it could be adapted, remixed, and redistributed outside of their oversight. There is also perpetual concern about the possibility of commercial exploitation of any organization's messages which would be allowed with something like a Creative Commons license that does not forbid noncommercial use. For this reason, it is actually difficult to find health media online which has free licenses of the sort used in Wikimedia projects.

To see Wikimedia's existing collection of health posters see Commons:Category:Educational and health posters. There are currently 80 files here and low participation by any contemporary health organization. In the sexually transmitted subsection even there the messages are outdated. Outside of Wikimedia Commons the available resources are again restricted in that it is never easy to get them for remixing and redistribution purposes. I think this collection is meager and would like to see it grow on Wikimedia projects, beyond on the Internet, and to everywhere off the Internet where they are desired.

As a test to see what happens when an organization's health messages get free licenses, my employer Consumer Reports permitted me to upload one of their health posters in English and Spanish. I inserted this poster in these articles

• Antibiotic misuse
• Antibiotics, es:Antibiótico
• Doctor–patient relationship, es:Relación médico-paciente

I feel that these articles are improved by including relevant contemporary health media from Wikimedia Commons in them. So far as I know, no organization has done this before.

I would appreciate any thoughts from anyone else about the extent to which it is useful to put health media on Wikimedia Commons and use it to illustrate Wikipedia articles. If this seems useful then I would like to encourage all organizations to consider doing this while also having their staff continually ask the Wikipedia community what is useful for developing Wikipedia. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:03, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I hope that all my patients don't start asking me those questions. Clinics and ward rounds would become interminably long. _{Perhaps I should design a poster with generic replies to go alongside?} Axl ¤ [Talk] 19:57, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Why would it take longer? Is your Spanish not very good? Yes design as you like. I and I think every organization is curious if anyone would actually remix posters if they are shared. Practically every organization with which I have talked does not want this and cites it as a reason for not sharing on Wikipedia, but I doubt that it will happen. Wikipedia hardly has regular contributors much less media remixers. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:02, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah, an obtuse and sarcastic response to my cynical one. Very good. :-) Axl ¤ [Talk] 21:00, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I was a bit skeptical of adding these and was going to suggest adding a link under ==External links==, but the ones I looked at actually improved the article as illustrations of relevant concepts, rather than merely providing the documents.

(Axl, I don't know how many patients you see in a day, or whether they have special needs, but for a basically normal middle-aged adult, I'm guessing that this list of questions would add two minutes to each antibiotic prescription: "Do I really need antibiotics?" "Yes." If you're dealing with, say, someone who has early dementia and hearing loss, any question could be difficult. But in that case, it might be even more important.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:27, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing There are hardly any guidelines about integrating non-plaintext text, like this PDF, into Wikipedia. The general rule is Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Avoid_entering_textual_information_as_images, and the most standard practice is to just put a link to a Commons category in the external links. In the past I have argued that primary documents giving results of court cases could be displayed in this way in Wikipedia articles about the case, and the feedback I go was that those should be in the external links. Thanks for the feedback in this case. I rarely see supplemental documents used as illustration anywhere else on Wikipedia, and I wonder if that is because this kind of media is not desired in the article space or only if it is because these are rarely available. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:27, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

It's worth looking at the reasons why we recommend certain practices. We don't use an image to display text because it's not searchable, is invisible to screen readers without alt text and takes far more bandwidth to download. Some PDFs are simply an image of a page of text, wrapped inside a pdf - which suffers from the same problems as a bare image. The PDF you uploaded is mainly text and is readable by a screen reader, but isn't searchable by the native browser methods when part of a page. It is also 375 KB in size - about ten times the size of the text in a large article, so we would have to be sure that the value it brings to a page outweighs the burden of downloading for folks who have low bandwidth. Obviously if its content is all we are referring to, then it simply needs to be a url in a citation. If we are making a point about the presentation of the poster, then being able to see it is important, and there's a case for embedding it in the page with the File: method. A compromise would be to include a link either to the original as an external link (saving hassle over licensing) or to Commons if we have it uploaded. This allows anyone interested to see the poster without forcing a big download on those that have problems with bandwidth. It's always going to be a judgement call on a case-by-case basis. --RexxS (talk) 21:28, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

RexxS I thought about this too. If there is an audience which wants documents like this - printable posters and brochures - then there are ways to better integrate this. I did not do this because I wanted initial feedback about whether this sort of media was even desirable.

If I took next steps and made an example of best practices, I would convert the PDF to a DJVU, which is the native format for Wikisource and machine readable there whereas PDF is not. This format automatically generates a plain-text version on Wikisource so people could remix it and there would be connected English and Spanish versions to start. Just being a DJVU file would make it smaller. Licensing for Wikipedia is a mega hassle as you say, but a bigger hassle is not having free information available online at all and having to make these things from nothing. I am not sure this belongs here but wanted to start the conversation as I had never seen text documents shared in this way. Blue Rasberry (talk) 02:29, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Male rape article

The Male rape (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) article was recently created by Okkisafire; it was previously a redirect to the Rape by gender article, and is in need of attention from WP:MED editors because, like I noted here at the Rape by gender talk page, I'm certain that some of the medical sources (including the mental health sources) used for it are not WP:MEDRS-compliant or what WP:MEDRS considers satisfactory. Flyer22 (talk) 19:08, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Ow, sorry for that. I think i must pending this article after we get the resolution. Okkisafire (talk) 08:56, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Plus, sorry, english is not my mother language. i think i just lost the neutrality of the article. I though i would fix it today, but it seem that i have to pending it, at least after the next issue. Okkisafire (talk) 09:00, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Asserting "facts"

I've been in some edit skirmishes recently and just want to double check what the consensus is on how WP:ASF applies to biomedical claims. Put simply should we, in general, write:

1. A systematic review of 2009 found no evidence that eating strawberries prevented the onset of ingrown toenail^[ref] or
2. As of 2009 no good evidence had been found that eating strawberries prevented the onset of ingrown toenail^[ref] or
3. There is no good evidence that eating strawberries prevents the onset of ingrown toenail^[ref] ?

And would the wording be affecting by the knowledge that there was ongoing research into the topic? Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 10:08, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Good question. The examples at Wikipedia:MEDMOS#Citing_medical_sources and WP:MEDPRI suggest #3, in the context more of what sources to use, than how to describe them or their conclusions. A longer list of worked examples of recommended style would be very useful, but I'm not aware of one. Johnbod (talk) 13:36, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Agree, given a good-quality, up-to-date, strong WP:MEDRS-compliant secondary source, just state the result. Where strong sources are available, don't clutter up the article with distracting references to the kinds of sources, our readers generally don't care/can't tell the difference between a systematic review or a meta-analysis, etc., and shouldn't have to. The interested reader can click through to the sources themselves to find out more about them. Zad68 14:05, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Zad68, at least most of the time. For instance, our article on autism doesn't say that a literature review found that there is no evidence to support a link between it and vaccines. Instead, it says, "these theories lack convincing scientific evidence and are biologically implausible." (sourced to [2]). However if you want to "soften it up" with regard to the way you convey the conclusions of a MEDRS compliant source you could just say "A systematic review found/concluded/whatever..." Jinkinson talk to me 14:20, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

@Jinkinson Indeed, in the WP:FRINGE space I can remember on past occasions editors pressing for "softened" formulations such as:

• A study of 2009 found that because of the heterogeneous nature of the underlying research, there was not yet enough evidence to recommend for or against the use of strawberry eating as a ingrown toenail prevention modality, and that "more research is needed".^[ref]

This is one that comes down to editorial judgement, and depends heavily on context. (No matter how convenient it would be, there is not – and will never be – a magical mechanical algorithm for deciding 'reliability' and the appropriate 'strength' with which we represent results.) Speaking generally, we should avoid watering down or equivocating on the conclusions of high-quality sources. Format #3 is likely to be the best option when dealing with high-quality secondary sources, where no commparably reliable, robust, or recent countervailing sources exist. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:53, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Unless there is an equally reliable source that supports the notion that eating strawberries prevents ingrown toenails, there is only one formulation that meets our guidelines:

• Eating strawberries does not prevent the onset of ingrown toenail.^[ref]

The relevant guidelines/policies are at Wikipedia:Citing sources #In-text attribution, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view #Attributing and specifying biased statements and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ #Assert facts, not opinions. All POV-pushers love to dilute unequivocal findings that they dislike by attributing them as if they were mere opinions: "A 2013 Cochrane review found no evidence that X does Y" should be recast as "X does not do Y". It's easy enough to qualify or attribute later if equally good contradictory evidence ever turns up. In the meantime, let's not give the wrong impression to our readers. --RexxS (talk) 15:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

The opposite is true to, we had a discussion (finally settled by Hidabast from NIH) where a Cochrane study found "insufficient evidence to support or refute.." something. When you read the study, the inclusion criteria excluded all but one small study. In this case, the Cochrane review could make no analysis but it was often misquoted as being evidence that there is no evidence of benefit to the therapy. I agree the summary should be based on the study. If you have a Cochrane or meta-analysis with adequate data and conclusions, I believe #3 would apply, otherwise #1. Ian Furst (talk) 17:25, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Most of the time we should just state the facts. Only if there is significant disagreement or the text does not support stating it as fact should we not. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:12, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks everybody for your responses, which have been very helpful. Some material here for that MEDRS FAQ, maybe ... ? Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 11:17, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

ETS

If someone has a while today, would you please look over Endoscopic thoracic sympathectomy? You'll need to start with the May 2013 edit, which introduces a small grammar error. This article isn't very high volume, but it has a history of extreme POV pushing, and I've unfortunately not noticed any of the changes since last summer. (I've got to do something about my watchlist...) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:57, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Why are surgical procedure articles usually a POV mess... Either surgeons promoting something, like we had with that Otto Placik, or advocates against the procedure try to take it over for their own purposes, like we had on LASIK. Lesion 18:14, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Sugar

• I have noticed this in the Sugar article (permanent link); "In 2013, Murandu et al. found clinically that sugar is an antibiotic, and pouring granulated sugar on necrotic wounds can help ulcers heal faster.[95]". The in-line source is the MailOnline. Any Comments? Snowman (talk) 20:21, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Of course delete it. Health claims should not be supported by the popular press. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:38, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I wanted to make sure, partly because it is a GA and also because I am thinking about starting a GAR. Snowman (talk) 21:03, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

There is this pilot study, and apparently an bigger trial under way, but it's too early to include anything. Johnbod (talk) 00:34, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

It shouldn't be "too early" to find secondary sources on it, since that treatment has been used for centuries. PMID 21479349 is a free 2011 review that discusses the use of sugar as an antibiotic (mostly to compare it to honey). The short version, for those that don't want to download the pdf, is that bacteria generally don't thrive in massively hyperosmolar environments, which is why marmalade and raisins don't rot. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:05, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

• Western diet and Alzheimer's disease (I have only seen the abstract), a paper from 2002, sounds rather speculative about the role of a western diet in AD to me, but the Wiki "sugar" article uses it as in inline reference to support text outlining a suggested role for a western diet in the aetiology of AD. Any comments? Snowman (talk) 21:03, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Not really, per WP:MEDA. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:15, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Looks like there is a bunch of primary sources and a GAR is reasonable. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:24, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I have to rush now, but I plan to look at it again and I would probably start a Community GAR sometime in the next week. If anyone is minded to start a GAR themselves, then I would welcome that. Snowman (talk) 15:03, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

• Is the "Sugar" article within the scope of WP Medicine? The talk page does not have a WP banner. This may influence a possible GAR. Snowman (talk) 15:08, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I would say no it is not in the scope of WP Med. All health content however needs to be supported by secondary sources. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:55, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

When I raised the Redback Spider article here some time ago (see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine/Archive_39#Venomous_spiders), I was told that "... they [non-WP medicine articles] are not covered under Wikimed, we still promote the use of evidence as described by WP:MEDRS." by User:LT910001. This sounds optional and so differs from the reply above. Snowman (talk) 12:20, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:MEDRS applies to biomedical material, regardless of whether the page has been tagged by this project. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:52, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Yep, Anthony's statement was also the intent of my statement quoted above. --LT910001 (talk) 03:47, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Impact factor for textbooks?

Some are held in much higher regard than others. Is there a shortcut for readers outside the specialty to tell which are the most widely used and relied upon textbooks? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:26, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

One can go to there local medical school bookstore. Each specialty usually has one or two standard textbooks that nearly all students use. My field has Tintinalli and Rosen. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:27, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Some other clues, perhaps. Has it seen multiple editions? Is it widely held in the libraries of medical schools? Is it held in the NLM? Checking worldcat can usually help with answering these. LeadSongDog come howl! 15:06, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Difficult to tell. Number of editions is a possible indicator, agree. Textbooks which are essentially compilations of chapters each written by a small group of different authors always feel more reliable than textbooks written by one or two authors. Dare I suggest that the nature of the advertising on the cover and the qualifications of the authors are useful indicators too? How many pages does it have? =) Lesion 17:37, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

• http://www.worldcat.org/ will give you how many libraries hold a work (very biased towards western, english speaking, libraries). I consider being held by more than a 1000 libraries 'widely held' Stuartyeates (talk) 06:38, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Maybe there would be some point in creating a list of widely used medical books here, for reference purposes? Or a list of books that we find are exceptionally good? CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 14:26, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Primary source published as a ppt in the e-cigs article

Discussion is here [3]. Wondering what others opinions are. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 16:08, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Those 2 just don't give up. Why no topic ban? Lesion 17:39, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Possibly because we're not the ones pushing a POV. There is not ONE study that even suggests e-cigs can lead to nicotine addiction or smoking, or may be harmful, but the article is still riddled with these "concerns" on the basis of a handful of press releases and one "secondary source" that turns out to he a blatantly slanted WHO FAQ with no primary sources behind it.--FergusM1970^{Let's play Freckles} 18:06, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, WHO is wrong, you are correct. This is why you need topic ban. Lesion 19:38, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Notification of topic ban discussion on AN/I

• See Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Request_topic_ban_for_chronic_POV_pushing_editor_on_Electronic_cigarette. Regards, Lesion 19:55, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Excellent idea. Has my support. A user who continually tries to argue for the removal of WHO as a reference source needs to not be editing. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:16, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Please see User:Luckysunshinegurl505/sandbox

It's a draft about "effects of substance abuse" that clearly needs a lot more help than the generalist regular reviewers at AFC can give it. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:56, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

We have Substance use disorder, Drug addiction, Combined drug intoxication and Substance abuse, some of which are tagged for merger. I doubt that the effects of substance abuse deserves a stand alone article in view of that, but will have a look. Ochiwar (talk) 06:10, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I actually hate it here and I'm leaving

After this incident I have truly had enough of this place: [4]

My current GAs olfactory reference syndrome and leukoplakia need closure, unless another editor can be found to complete them. Apologies to LT and Ian Furst who have put effort into the review on Leukoplakia.

For your info, DangerousPanda, I was an experienced editor with over 12,000 edits, mainly to topics around oral medicine and oral pathology, and I was apparently one of the top 10 most active editors on medical pages in '13 ... but hey none of that matters. All that is important is that people like you their daily fix of belittling and bullying people who are trying to do the right thing. And, ofc you get to keep the obnoxious POV-pushing editors so good luck with that. Lesion 09:01, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to hear that Lesion, it will be WP's loss. I just noticed the discussion at WP:ANI about Electronic cigarette and in my view it wasn't well-handled. From past involvement in that article, I think there has definitely been a behaviour problem there (which it seems, is continuing). I guess it's part of the Wikipedia editing experience to discover there are some things here which really suck and can't be fixed ... at least not in a timely fashion. Alexbrn ^{talk|contribs|COI} 09:11, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Am sorry to see you leave, Lesion. You have always been a reasonable and conscientious editor with a very down-to-earth attitude about editing, and I wish you all the best in your future, LT910001 (talk) 09:22, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Lesion, I'm really sorry you had this upsetting experience. I hope you take a very well earned wiki-break and come back when you feel ready and refreshed. Always feel free to join me in the mire of obscure agricultural villages of the subcontinent requiring copyediting. ;-) Take it easy, Myrtle G. Myrtlegroggins (talk) 09:41, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Two things: 1) my thoughts on Lesion's departure, and 2) would you want to be added to WP:MISS, User:Lesion? Jinkinson talk to me 13:53, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Lesion Your work has not gone unnoticed, and it would be a massive shame to see you go. I was near wiki-burnout in late 2005 and came close in 2008 after unpleasant interactions with even more unpleasant people. But in the end it's worth it. Don't bolt the door. Please. JFW | T@lk 14:50, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes much of Wikipedia sucks and we all unfortunately have to deal with those part from time to time. Yes one needs a very thick skin to edit in certain areas. Remember "Illegitimi non carborundum" and we are here for our readers. Hope you change your mind. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:13, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I saw the ANI discussion after it was closed. I don't think the request was clear enough for most of the people who usually hang out there, who seem to spend no more than ten seconds reviewing a situation on average. That forum isn't effective for open-ended requests for help. If you try to be fair and non-prejudicial by saying, "Here's this problem, what do you think?", it will likely fail while they engage in a game of hot potato. If you say, "I request a topic ban", you still might get no help, but at least they won't tell you that RSN is a good forum for dealing with WP:CPUSHing.

Would someone else like to take over this? An RFC/U would not be an unreasonable way to collect information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:37, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• I too am displeased that Lesion says they're retiring. Of course, I cannot and will not shoulder all of the blame. As I have already said elsewhere, yes, I stooped to sarcasm ... unfortunately, I did that after the conversation had already gone south. I should not have been tempted to do that. Lesion's edits have been able to move the project forward. The sole error I find was the way they approached the ANI filing, and then the post-closing - it's probably a good thing that Lesion does NOT have extensive experience at ANI, and that's a credit to them - those who spend a lot of time a ANI are jaded :-) . It's unfortunate that the way the ANI was filed/introduced left no other option but to close it with no action - and by the way, it wasn't me who closed it. Lesion, I apologize rarely, but I do apologize that my attempted humour led to sarcasm that was unfortunately taken the wrong way. It is also my sincere hope that you return to the work you've been doing. If you have questions on how to appropriately file the concerns, please contact me - although I see some of your wise colleagues are already taking up the mantle. Best,  the panda  ₯’ 19:05, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
• Lesion Thanks for everything you have done and contributed. I listed WikiProject Medicine at the Wikipedia:List of cabals so that people in the future can know that they can come to this forum and ask for more opinions about the reliability of sources. This board is almost always of one mind about acceptable medical sources and anyone coming here asking for comments about a source ought to get predictable comments. I would like to think that people like Lesion can depend on this board providing people to give comments request, and I hope that there was not a problem in help being requested and this board failing to provide it. Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:01, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

As an update, @Lesion:, NuclearWarfare has blocked the editor FergusM1970. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:26, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Lesion, it's sad to see you leaving, since I regard you as a very supportive coeditor. I've once taken what was meant to be a permanent leave, but I gradually returned to editing, and I hope you will too. Mikael Häggström (talk) 14:58, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Class of 60 students

Hey all. We have a class of 60 medical students editing a bunch of Wikipedia's medication articles. They need some guidance. Please email me and I will send you the list of articles if you want to help. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:26, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Are the Sexual dysfunction (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Anorgasmia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) articles two of them? I've recently seen what are no doubt WP:Student editors editing those articles -- brand new editors with a red-linked username, a personal sandbox, and big or otherwise significant expansions that follow (or sometimes precede) the sandbox work. And I already know of the student work going into the Vaginismus, Cervical cancer and a few other vaginal-related articles, as noted here not too long ago. Flyer22 (talk) 05:22, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Following Terp1a (talk · contribs) from the Sexual dysfunction article, I also see that the Penile prosthesis article has also been a focus. Flyer22 (talk) 05:31, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

No this is a different class. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:13, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Please share with me. I would be happy to message the professor also and give them an online video tour of health content on Wikipedia if they like. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:08, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I have gone over all 60 articles. Have connected with the prof to offer support. This class was significantly better than many. Would love to see some of them turn into long term editors. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:47, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

OBGYN class page Education_Program:Harvard_University/Obgyn_bootcamp_(April_2014) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 17:17, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Saint's Triad

Hello. I am a "sort-of" Wikipedia editor. I limit my contributions to minor corrections of spelling and grammar in articles I read. I have found the word " pathophysiosology" in the article on Saint's Triad. I believe that there is no such word and that it is a misspelling of "pathophysiology", but not being any kind of medical expert I do not want to change it myself. Could some medical professional please check it out and correct it if necessary? Veronicafitzrandolph (talk) 05:01, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that was a misspelling of pathophysiology. Pathophysiosology is not a word and this error has been corrected on the Saint's Triad page now. Thanks for letting us know. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 05:05, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Non-Klinefelter XXY article is up for deletion

Opinions are needed from this WikiProject on the state of the Non-Klinefelter XXY article and with regard to weighing in on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Non-Klinefelter XXY. Flyer22 (talk) 06:12, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

New user Qnq

User Qnq started editing yesterday. I've undone his/her edits to Ramelteon and Melatonin and made note of that on his/her talk page. I don't know what to do with the rest:

• George W. Bush substance abuse controversy Diff
• Viagra and Sildefanil, where s/he's apparently made some redirect/new article? See Qnq's first three contributions.

(It would appear that Qnq knows more about working at Wikipedia than your usual newbie...) --Hordaland (talk) 16:36, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Hordaland I looked at all these things and they seem friendly enough. I will watch their userpage. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:45, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Improving the leads of all WHO essential medications

To get them ready for translation I am planning on improving the leads of all these articles.

Have encounter an interesting issue. On cephalexin we stated that it was introduced in 1967.[5] Some sources have already copied and pasted from us so we see this repeated on google books. This ref [6] shows that it was introduced under 4 brand names by 4 different companies. Was it not patentable? Or was the law different back than? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:00, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

An old friend is an IP lawyer. I've sent him the question hoping he might be able to offer some insight. Ian Furst (talk) 13:22, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The 1970 launches are by Glaxo in UK & France, plus 2 Japanese companies in Japan. These would presumably be under licence from the patent-holder, which was & I think still is quite common, though Big Pharma is much more international now. Lilly seem to have actually developed it, which is one thing the article doesn't say. Johnbod (talk) 14:34, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The story of the patent for cephalexin can be found here, last sentence of page 40 and all of 41. Lilly had the original patent, but Glaxo seems to have marketed it concurrently in the UK. My friend says that, it may not be easy to sort out what happened. Here are his words on the topic,

"It could have been a battle vis a vis patenting different things and whether one infringes the other, or it could have been "we don't have this type of market in your country, so you put it out and pay us a few cents on the dollar etc.". Remember, just because you have infrastructure in one country to pump out a drug, doesn't necessarily mean you can do the same thing in another country for a variety of reasons, including import / export, and other crippling regulations.Also, especially back then, patentability in one jurisdiction did not necessarily equate to patentability in another jurisdiction. The best source of information on what happened would be an industry insider because details or existences of licences etc. won't necessarily be in documentation you can easily find. Granted it may be out there, but you might burn lots of hours of research to find it."

Hope that helps. Ian Furst (talk) 14:42, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Your source says Lilly had "a commercial monopoly for 18 years", which doesn't suggest any legal disputes, just licences. Johnbod (talk) 14:57, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

It may well be. It didn't explain Glaxo's role specifically so I wasn't sure. Also, it seems to be a US publication, so I was not sure if they are referring to the US patent only. Ian Furst (talk) 15:06, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Maybe. Anyway, since it is now well-referenced to the sources linked here that Eli Lilly were the developers, shouldn't that go in the article? Johnbod (talk) 10:38, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure this book is right. Here is the paper from Chauverre from 1971 [7]. I do not believe he figured it out in 1962 and than sat on it for 10 years. I am unable to find other sources that back up [8] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

We do have this paper [9] from 1962 though Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:53, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

This book says after 1964 [10] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay found another ref that says 1967 [11]. There appears to have been a number of steps in its developed which were done by different companies. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:59, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok, seems complicated, so perhaps best left for now. Johnbod (talk) 14:33, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I keep hoping that we'll get more pharma employees around here, so that people who actually know the answers to these questions (or who know someone who knows) can help us figure out the history for some of these older drugs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:02, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

For Interest: Tracking flu levels with Wikipedia

McIver, David J.; Brownstein, John S. (2014). "Wikipedia Usage Estimates Prevalence of Influenza-Like Illness in the United States in Near Real-Time". PLoS Computational Biology. 10 (4): e1003581. doi:10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003581. PMID 24743682. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |laysource= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |laysummary= ignored (help)CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)

RDBrown (talk) 13:55, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks RDBrown. I integrated this into Health information on Wikipedia and listed it at Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Research publications. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:52, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Cardiometabolic Risk

Dear medical experts: This old draft was never submitted to be in the encyclopedia. Is this a notable topic that should be kept and improved? —Anne Delong (talk) 18:14, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• Of course it is a notable topic. The Wiki already has a page on it at metabolic syndrome. There is some overlap in the two articles, but merging my be reasonable and so does splitting the topic with the new page focusing on global trends with a new heading to reflect that. I have not read both articles yet. Snowman (talk) 18:28, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Global variation in metabolic syndrome rates maybe. The lead on the old article is very short, & some of the new might benefit that. Johnbod (talk) 20:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for checking this out. I have postponed deletion of the old draft. It can either become an article on its own, or, if content is moved to one of the ones you've mentioned, it can be turned into a redirect. —Anne Delong (talk) 20:34, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Need help with citations

The live chat room referred me here: they couldn't help me and thought maybe someone at this site could. The citations I added to the Platelet page yesterday are not "completing". It says "Citation will be completed automatically in a few minutes. Jump the queue or expand by hand". Is there anyone who could go to that page and fix those 8 uncompleted citations? Thanks.

IiKkEe (talk) 00:59, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

This explains WP:MEDHOW Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:35, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The bot which completes these sometimes takes more than a day. There is also an option in the citation next to that text you quoted to force it to complete if you click through. Blue Rasberry (talk) 01:41, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The cite PMID template is not preferred by most of the editors at WPMED. Thus better to use the other ones in the link above. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:01, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Re: Anatomy article

I deleted some un-referenced text from the article partly because it seemed out of context to me. My point of view is that the unsourced text blurred the study of anatomy and the study of pathology into just the study of anatomy. The editor who is also the GA reviewer for this article has started a discussion at Talk:Anatomy#Preservation_of_content, and I would welcome more opinions over there. Snowman (talk) 12:09, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The GA reviewer has put the un-sourced text back. I have copied this to the WP Anatomy talk page, where it might be more relevant. Snowman (talk) 09:43, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/dcGO

Dear medical experts: Once again, here is an old Afc submission that will soon be deleted as a stale draft. Should this page be kept and improved instead? —Anne Delong (talk) 14:15, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Anne Delong The problem was that the article creator was making promotional claims not backed by citations. After I removed those claims there remained other information about the article's subject backed to scholarly publications. I moved the article to mainspace upon verifying them. Thanks for bring this article here - I do think it should be kept. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:57, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I have not heard of this before. The article needs improvements. dcGo itself appears to be well organized and useful, so I would think that it is notable. Snowman (talk) 16:23, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Opinion about abscesses and MRSA

Hello. Could I have an opinion at Talk:Abscess#When_to_use_antibiotics_with_an_abscess_and_MRSA? Lesion used to hang out there and is missed. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:42, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Resolved

Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:46, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Medical articles and jargon

Moved from Wikipedia:OTRS noticeboard

I'm getting to the point where I hesitate to look up medical information on Wikipedia because nearly all the articles are too technical and seem geared to medical professionals and students rather than the average Wikipedia user. Is this the kind of thing that can be reviewed and changed by some kind of Wikipedia board or science group? Thank you very much. Rissa, copy editor 01:26, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Wrond desk for this query - try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine. Nthep (talk) 08:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Risssa, I agree with you, and so do a lot of us here. It's difficult, because the people who understand the material best are kind of used to all these technical terms and don't realize how difficult it can get for other people. We also have people who want to use medical jargon because it's more accurate (sometimes it is, other times, it's just showing off). The goal is to WP:Make technical articles accessible, although sometimes it's extremely difficult to write entire articles in plain English.

I'd consider it a favor if you posted here whenever you found an impenetrable section or paragraph in an article. Just give us a link to the article, paste the most important parts to fix here, and tell us that you can't understand it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:14, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I would rather say that lack of additional explanations is the real issue. There are many things that are wrongly presumed to be quite obvious. Well, they are actually, but not for regular readers. --Winter^eu (user talk) 00:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I would like to see more articles with both the precise technical language, where this is not easily simplified, and more generally accessible language, especially in the lead, where I think the problems are often most prominent. This can be achieved in normal prose, but it might be good to have a convention where we have a box in the lead with an accessible summary, rather like the "in a nutshell" boxes for guidelines, but rather longer and perhaps not at the top. For example, many articles on drugs, which start out very technical, could benefit from this approach. Johnbod (talk) 01:03, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Category:Glossaries of medical terms might be helpful in this matter.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with WhatamIdoing and Johnbod. Please feel free to post links to the awkward sections here, and one of us will attempt to simplify it. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:28, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Respiratory Rate Ranges

The "normal" range of respiratory rates on the respiratory rate article are seriously incorrect. An adult with a respiratory rate of 18-22 is not normal, they are in respiratory distress. The normal rate of respiration is 14/minute. I am studying for my neurology exam right now so I don't have the time to dig up all the sources or learn how to write a wikipedia article so if someone else could take point on this I would appreciate it. I thought I would at least do my part and bring it to everyone's attention.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healthlibrary/conditions/cardiovascular_diseases/vital_signs_body_temperature_pulse_rate_respiration_rate_blood_pressure_85,P00866/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.40.155.159 (talk) 00:30, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

You are right. The article "Respiratory rate" is incorrect. Once I am back with my books, I shall find a suitable reference and fix the article. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:35, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I have corrected the article and added a reference to Ganong. Axl ¤ [Talk] 22:15, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Salbutamol inhalers

After the discussions on patents yesterday, I found this article on Albuterol as well as this one in the New York Times. According to the article, the makers heavily lobbied the US government to have CFC based inhalers banned which resulted in a second patent and delays in generics. It's an interesting saga, but I'm not sure if a politcal fight is appropriate for the article. Thoughts? Ian Furst (talk) 10:04, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Of course it is. Just tread gently, so that you are being very careful to represent what the sources say, focusing on the bare facts. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:16, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The transition away from CFCs in inhalers is covered at Inhaler#Propellants and Metered-dose inhaler#Propellants; those may be better target articles. I second the good advice from WhatamIdoing. --Mark viking (talk) 20:36, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Nebulizer and Montreal protocol may also be of (limited) relevance. Please use care to ensure that if primary and viewpoint sources are used, statements are attributed accordingly and to avoid wp:COATRACKing. LeadSongDog come howl! 21:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Mark viking, I didn't see it's coverage. I'll add in the new references, to Inhaler#Propellants as well as the lobby efforts quoted in the NYT. Ian Furst (talk) 00:01, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

This is an issue specific to the USA (and possibly some other countries?). In the UK, generic salbutamol MDIs are typically prescribed and used. Please try to avoid a US-centric rant. If this information is to be included in the article (and I think that a brief mention is appropriate), it should be kept brief—perhaps no more than two sentences. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:47, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

One of the article mentions "generic Augmentin" and "generic Concerta" whatever that means. As far as I am aware, a ban on CFCs in inhalers started a few years ago (? world wide ban). The changeover to non CFC's has also happened in the UK. I would try to correlate what the newspapers say with other articles, before adding anything to the Wiki. I would not use the newspapers as sources for the Wiki. Apparently the use of generics is increasing in USA; see 2011 Health Care Costs. A generic salbutamol 200 dose inhaler costs £1.50 to the NHS in the UK (there is also a dispensing charge). Snowman (talk) 22:15, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Augmentin is a proprietary preparation of co-amoxiclav, made by GlaxoSmithKline. I am not familiar with Concerta but it is a proprietary preparation of methylphenidate made by Jannsen Pharmaceuticals (owned by Johnson & Johnson). "Generic Augmentin" is somewhat loose terminology—it really means "generic co-amoxiclav" as opposed to "proprietary Augmentin". Axl ¤ [Talk] 22:45, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not write my previous comment very clearly. The sloppy language in the newspaper articles does not inspire me with confidence and that is why I would suggest that the newspaper articles should not used as sources on the Wiki. I would not have been irritated by something like "the generic equivalent of Augmentin". Snowman (talk) 22:57, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment for WikiProject Medicine

Hello, I have some concerns about the accuracy and neutrality of two articles perhaps of interest to this WikiProject: Non-Hodgkin lymphoma and Polychlorinated biphenyl. I am in a conflict of interest, I am involved with a prominent lawsuit; but my concerns about the article relate to the Wikipedia contributions of another editor in a COI. Could more experienced Wikipedians please look at the recent discussions on the two talk pages, and the edit histories, and see if it is possible to establish a more neutral, and factually informative, version of the relevant sections? Thank you, -Kdelay13 (talk) 22:43, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

There are likely to be authoritative and erudite books or articles on these topics. Please note that the disclaimer at the bottom of every Wiki article. Not referring to your case nor your work, but as a general rule of thumb, I would guess that a lawyer could get laughed at if he or she used the Wiki as an accurate source of scientific information in a legal document. Snowman (talk) 10:01, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Re-think - remark withdrawn by strike out. Snowman (talk) 17:45, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are up to. Please make it clearer what you are requesting. This does not like a simple request for an article or articles to be improved. Snowman (talk) 17:45, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/APS ACTION

Dear medical experts: Is this old Afc submission about a notable topic? It'll be deleted soon unless someone takes an interest in it. —Anne Delong (talk) 15:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Anne Delong Thanks for bringing this here. I reviewed it and tagged it for deletion. This organization is in the scope of this WikiProject, so thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:13, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Great. One more off the list. —Anne Delong (talk) 16:19, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Would it be better if there had been more time for other people to have look at the article before it is deleted? Snowman (talk) 21:35, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

AfC submission - 25/04

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Temporary Manic Displacement Disorder. FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 19:35, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Sounds a bit too new. I would say delete it. Best to get more opinions. Snowman (talk) 21:39, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Society and Medicine Categorization

HasteurBot has finished a trial run through tagging WikiProject Medicine talk pages with the "Society and Medicine task force" sub parameter. The bot does not make judgments on importance. Please review Category:Unknown-importance society and medicine articles to assign an appropriate society task force importance parameter. Thank you. Hasteur (talk) 00:16, 26 April 2014 (UTC)