Talk:January 6 United States Capitol attack

Sicknick Death & Disinformation

Just saw the news that Sicknick's death has finally been revealed - death by natural causes due to a stroke. Yes he was pepper sprayed, but this doesn't appear to have been a factor - no allergic reaction to chemical irritants was discovered during the autopsy. Thus I'd suggest the section on his death be tweaked to make clear it was death due to natural causes - the section currently appears to imply it was death due to pepper spray triggering a stroke, which is not true. Further down I believe the disinformation section should be updated to reflect the fact that the media long claimed Sicknick was bashed to death with a fire extinguisher. While it has long been known this was untrue - no signs of physical trauma, it is only now that we know the actual cause. 人族 (talk) 23:15, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

With this new information, the info box should be corrected. Or with a notation "originally attributed to the incident, later attributed to natural causes" in the info box. Such info should not be hidden in a footnote because that would be misleading.

Or delete his name or police officer in the infobox but still keep it in the article.Inkfo (talk) 01:01, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The fact that he died of a stroke doesn't make his death unrelated to the storming of the capitol. From here, though almost all sources quote it: "All that transpired played a role in his condition," Diaz told the newspaper. Similarly, the Washington Post cites that quote and says: Diaz’s ruling does not mean Sicknick was not assaulted or that the violent events at the Capitol did not contribute to his death. The medical examiner noted Sicknick was among the officers who engaged the mob and said “all that transpired played a role in his condition.” Likewise, The Hill quotes the medical examiner's report as saying that The medical examiner's office said in its report that "an unprecedented incident of civil insurrection at the United States Capitol resulted in the deaths of five individuals." So on its own this isn't enough to remove him from the infobox, though of course the details should be noted in the article. --Aquillion (talk) 02:01, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Come on. This double negative from the cited source—"does not mean Sicknick was not assaulted or that the violent events at the Capitol did not contribute to his death"—obviously doesn't mean that the events did contribute. The fact that he died after the riot, of apparently unrelated and entirely "natural" causes, means his death ought to be either excluded from any "count" of deaths at or caused by the riots, since neither applies to him. Are we including anyone as a "death" in this article who died after the riot—and for how long? A week? A month? The fact that the media blew the story for months doesn't mean he now ought to remain in a death total—if the information known today was known the day after the riot, he never would have been included in the infobox in the first place, and of course it's enough to take him out. The medical examiner's report is a primary source—The Hill quotes it, but neither endorses it nor concludes it's correct. At this point, the most obvious relevance of Sicknick's death to our article subject is that, after months of media insisting he was killed by the riot, he wasn't—and died of natural causes. We of course should include that there was an enormous amount of media speculation that turned out to be spectacularly wrong—and leave any further speculation and innuendo out, please. Elle Kpyros (talk) 02:26, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Aquillion: The AP reports that the determination of a natural cause of death means the medical examiner found that a medical condition alone caused his death — it was not brought on by an injury. CBS reports that Diaz said the autopsy found no evidence of internal or external injuries, or of an allergic reaction to the chemical substance, that The "natural" classification is used "when a disease alone causes death," the medical examiner's office said in the summary. "If death is hastened by an injury, the manner of death is not considered natural", and that the medical examiner acknowledged that all that transpired [during the riot] played a role in his condition. NBC's Washington D.C. affiliate reports that D.C.'s Office of the Chief Medical Examiner said Monday that Sicknick's cause of death was "acute brainstem and cerebellar infarcts due to acute basilar artery thrombosis," and the manner of death was "natural," not a homicide. He probably shouldn't be listed as someone who was a casualty based off of this—medical examiner reports are likely more reliable than general speculation by mainstream press on the cause of death—though I think that referring to the reporting on his death being possibly homicide as "disinformation" also isn't reflective of the situation—agencies were generally reporting based off of the information that they had at the time. Reporting has changed as the facts on the ground have developed, though, and I think that we should update the article to reflect more recent reporting. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:41, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

What about Benjamin Philips? He apparently died in the morning four hours before the riot began, why is he included as a fatality in the storming event? Yodabyte (talk) 06:38, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Mikehawk10:, it doesn't matter where the media sourced the info from if it was so categorically wrong. Note too that Democrats also referred to the Sicknick bashing as part of their impeachment efforts. Except Sicknick wasn't bashed. Thus the media and Democrat efforts to claim otherwise - whether through malicious intent or naked incompetence really doesn't matter. It was disinformation peddled for weeks on end! And why has it taken 3.5 months for the truth to come out when the autopsy was done something like 2.5 months ago? 人族 (talk) 06:41, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

• medical examiner reports are likely more reliable than general speculation by mainstream press on the cause of death. This would be true if they contradict, but they do not. The medical examiner's report specifically and unambiguously goes out of its way to decline to state that his death was unrelated to the events the prior day. Therefore, the other sources remain the best available sources on whether it was connected, and it must continue to be listed in the infobox. Furthermore, the medical examiner's report specifically and unambiguously says that five people died as a result of the storming of the capitol, so using it as an argument to change the number to four is a direct misuse of the source. These are not points of speculation - they are what the medical examiner's report itself says. Of course we should update it elsewhere to say everything sources highlighted as important in the medical examiner's report (including the "everything that transpired" line, which multiple sources obviously highlighted as relevant), but using it as an argument to change the number in the infobox or to remove Sicknick from it is a direct, unambiguous misuse of the source that would be using it to make a chance that directly contradicts what it says. It establishes that Sicknick's death was (probably) not homicide, although the final determination about that is of course ultimately made in court; it specifically does not establish that it was unrelated to the storming of the capitol, and there is absolutely no grounds to read it any other way, so we must continue to treat it as related, per the overwhelming sources that continue to do so, until / unless we have actual sources saying otherwise. --Aquillion (talk) 13:51, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

This double-negative—"specifically and unambiguously goes out of its way to decline to state that his death was unrelated"—in no way asserts it was related. And things can be "related" in any number of ways—time, place, inclusion in news reports which later turn out to be false—which is totally different from saying that one is contributory to or causal of the other (or that all related things deserve inclusion in a Wikipedia article). WSJ says: "Report cites natural causes in officer’s death, drawing no links to Jan. 6 attack." NY asserts: "Medical Examiner: Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick Killed by Clot, Not Rioters." I'm unclear as to why there's such a strong push to claim, or even insinuate, a contributory and/or causal relationship here where none has been established—and indeed, has not even been claimed by the ME. Is this just a case of fundamental conservatism requiring more effort required to undo incorrect editing than to include it? Obviously the fact that "overwhelming sources" say something false does not mean it ought to be included in an article—that's obvious common sense. And what does "not homicide, [but] the final determination about that is of course ultimately made in court"—mean? And if there's no conclusion that Sicknick's death was caused by a person, no court case that alleges so, and indeed no evidence that it was—then we cannot speculate that his death was caused by a riot or rioters (for WP:BLP reasons, among others). I personally think that only people whose death was directly attributable to the protests should be included in the article (some of the people included here clearly didn't "storm the Capitol" and including them seems a WP:BLP violation)—do articles about other protests include deaths of people who died of completely unrelated causes during them—let alone those who died before or after? What's next—people who died shortly before watching them on TV? Enough with this, please: we really need to stick to the facts and, by all means report that the media got this wrong—but not that Sicknick died as a result of, during, or in any way that was significantly related to the "storming". That is simply perpetuating obvious misinformation. Elle Kpyros (talk) 15:21, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Ekpyros, Still, Diaz told the newspaper that "all that transpired" on January 6 "played a role in his condition." [1] There's your "contributory and/or causal relationship". .He was involved in a highly stressful situation, and then died of a cardiac event. It's not a fire extinguisher to the head, but it's clearly related. All that this means is that those guys with the bear mace likely won't be facing charges of murder. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:07, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Muboshgu It seems like you should be more concerned about Wikipedia carrying false information for months at a time. That means the system did not work. This is not the place for rumors. To continue to propagate the information on the thinnest of justifications seems negligent. Nweil (talk) 23:06, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Nweil, we reflect what reliable sources say, and that includes their mistakes. When they correct the record, so do we. It's not rumor mongering to say that stress can provoke a cardiac event. That's been proven through medical research. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:53, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Reflecting their mistakes has always been an inherently bad idea, encyclopedically. A stroke is a cerebrovascular event, not cardiac, and while stress and hypertension can be contributory factors, this report says nothing like that. Even his cherrypicked quote to a reporter only means what you think it does because it's vague as hell; "all that transpired" means literally every interaction that day is equally to blame. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:44, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this - we have the editorial discretion to reflect parts of reliable sources that are "more reliable", and I've had a problem with the "over quoting" that some people use to justify putting obviously wrong material into our articles just because it's in a reliable source. At this point, Sicknick's death cannot be considered connected to the events - the medical examiner obviously can't say "yes, for sure, the strokes weren't related" but unless someone brings forth a reliable source that says bear spray causes strokes then I think we need to use editorial judgement here and not connect his death to the events any more than "he was there that day then died the next". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 00:49, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Agree with both InedibleHulk and Berchanhimez—why this insistence on connecting a death to events that no one is claiming caused it? "All that transpired… played a role in his condition" is, as noted above, now the single thread holding this together and it's hopelessly vague, a truism, and it doesn't mean what's deliberately being insinuated here—the statement is true of everyone's condition at every moment of their life. As Mikehawk10 pointed out above, Reuters quotes the city, which has made abundantly clear: "The city said it describes the manner of death as 'natural' in cases in which a disease alone causes death. If death is 'hastened by an injury,' then the manner of death is not deemed natural." His death was of natural causes—it wasn't caused, hastened, or otherwise connected with the events of the day before. Every fact-checker has confirmed this, as here So why is this simple fact, attested to by the official scientist making the legal determination and confirmed by dozens of RS, so difficult to accept? Elle Kpyros (talk) 21:33, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, people here are attempting to connect one person's opinion to the "official report" and give it the same status - there's a reason that the official report does not say it played a role - because the medical examiner can't include that in a professional, official report. His opinion, no matter what it is, should not be taken above the official report, and attempting to use his opinion as a part of the official report is a violation of SYNTH that I'm unwilling to continue fighting. The fact that people are attempting to justify inclusion because "stress can provoke a cardiac event" when that was not included in the official report is the most blatant violation of SYNTH possible. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:41, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Police Officer

Should the police officer be removed because he died of a stroke, unrelated to the attacks on the Capitol?

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/19/988876722/capitol-police-officer-brian-sicknick-died-of-natural-causes-medical-examiner-ru

The above is an NPR source saying he died of a stroke. I believe we should remove the officer from the casualties for this reason. I am unaware of the circumstances of the other deaths listed (the rioters/attackers), but if their cause of death is similar (meaning they died of natural causes unrelated to the attack), they too should be removed. I am a dynamic IP and cannot edit, so any comments, thoughts, etc.? 2601:85:C101:C9D0:35A8:A436:4D28:FAFB (talk) 03:54, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Why would you think the stroke was unrelated? Dicklyon (talk) 04:36, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Because the coroner ruled it unrelated, hence the "natural causes" on the death certificate and NOT "homicide" (as marked on Ashli Babbets coroners report). Any claim of homicide therefore of Sicknick is therefore feelings based and not facts based. As stated in the other talk page however we can't simply remove Brian Sicknick from the article because the false claim he was murdered/killed/bludgeoned to death with a fire extinguisher or other conspiracy theories were used by Democrats and other activists as the primary reason for impeachment. Just because a hoax has been exposed, doesn't mean everything that happened before the hoax was exposed should be ignored.118.208.30.208 (talk) 04:47, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@118.208.30.208: Any claim of homicide therefore of Sicknick is therefore feelings based and not facts based isn't really a civil way to communicate here.

@Dicklyon: I think the IP might have a general point. The medical examiner's report has been widely reported on, and it doesn't appear to be included. The phrase the case has not been established as a homicide seems a bit odd given the medical examiner's affirmation that the cause of death was a medical condition alone; it's true but it also feels awfully roundabout given the public reporting on this (and even seems to give what might be WP:UNDUE credence to us affirming that is a homicide). He's generally been included as a casualty in reporting regarding the riots prior to the release of the medical examiner's report, though the section could use a bit of a look over to update how the article describes the officer's death in line with newer information. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The suggestion to "remove the officer from the casualties" said nothing about homicide or not. Our reporting that "Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick sustained injuries during the riot and died of a stroke the next day" seems reasonably NPOV. Dicklyon (talk) 05:36, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, what you are saying is a truthful sentence, though it also leaves out the context of the medical examiner's ruling. If we present those facts together, we probably should have some explicit reference to the medical examiner's report, seeing as we don't want to give off the impression that the two are causal in light of the report. Something along the line of One day after the Capitol Riot, Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick suffered a fatal stroke. Sicknick had sustained injuries during the riot and had been sprayed with bear spray not labeled for use on humans, though the D.C. medical examiner ruled that these injuries did not contribute to his death. Initially, it was widely reported that his death had been caused by injuries sustained in the riot. might be more neutral (and there's a bit of a WP:BLP issues if we are framing this in a way that gives undue weight to the claims that the two people arrested caused his death, though I don't think that we have that issue per se). This is obviously way too long for a photo caption, but feel free to take it if you would like to use it in the text of the article. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:55, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

That's good wording. And IP is correct that his death should be removed from the tally as it was not caused by the storming/insurrection EvergreenFir (talk) 06:01, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that he should be mentioned as one of the casualties. He is of course notable in relation to the event due to the media coverage, but it should be relegated to a section regarding his death, and not included in the infobox. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 00:07, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the replies. As the original poster (I was not the second IP 118 that responded and babbled about hoaxes and whatnot), I think the death of Mr. Sicknick should not be in the infobox itself, but it should definitely be covered in the rest of the article. As far as I am aware, the infobox should have only people who were directly killed or injured in the riot. As his death was not related to the attacks, he should be listed as killed in said box, though listing him as injured, which was widely reported on, would be acceptable. The same criteria should also be applied to the rioters; I am unaware of the circumstances of the other deaths, however. I see that no one has yet removed Mr. Sicknick from the infobox. Is there still disagreement? There seems to be consensus here that he was not killed in the attack. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:5066:37DA:6B8B:ABF9 (talk) 02:38, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

In fact, and as the section below mentions, Greeson and Philips also do not belong in the infobox. They also died of causes unrelated to the riots and should be removed. Greeson died of heart attack; Phillips, of a stroke. So only 2 people should be in the infobox. Comments? 2601:85:C101:C9D0:5066:37DA:6B8B:ABF9 (talk) 03:09, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Boyland died of an accidental amphetamine overdose, nothing violent, so maybe only one. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Good point, I agree. Only Babbit then should be in the infobox as killed. Mr. Sicknick and the other three rioters died of issues unrelated to the violent attack. I cannot make this edit, so a relevant user must make this edit, if they concur. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:B583:A1F0:B26:94D9 (talk) 19:51, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

My relevance to this community is fading fast, brother, but  Done. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

There's still some citation overkill; editing the whole massive page at once hogs my meager CPU resources to a disturbingly stifling degree, save us, someone! InedibleHulk (talk) 01:18, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Haha, same. Can you just change the 5 to a 1, though? It's kind of jarring. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:599B:F10B:80DF:6CF9 (talk) 01:06, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

I did change it. Then today, it changed back. Only Mt.FijiBoiz can say why the hell that happened. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:23, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Benjamin Philips and Kevin Greeson

Philips died in the morning four hours before the riot began, why is he included as a fatality in the Capitol storming event? Also Kevin Greeson apparently died around 2 pm which was ten minutes before the actual breach of the Capitol (according to the timeline). I feel less confused by Greeson being inlcuded since it was so close to the actual event (although still prior to and from natural causes) but why is Philips being included as part of this event, what am I missing because doesn't make sense to me? Yodabyte (talk) 06:44, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Nobody has any thoughts on this issue? Yodabyte (talk) 04:56, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I did, added a clarifying "before" earlier, just mentioning it here now. As to why things are missing and what's left doesn't make much sense, I blame a lot of downfalls, no simple solutions. But before, during and after, that's still a pretty easy concept to grasp (for now). InedibleHulk (talk) 05:29, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea what you mean, are you drunk? Not trying to be rude, only asking because your response is unintelligible. Yodabyte (talk) 05:40, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

It's the COVID, probably; see my edit at 01:04 today, UTC. Thought it was what you asked for. If not, it's still good. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Just curious why do you write on Wikipedia in a strange cryptic way (not just here but in your edit summaries and throughout talk pages)?? Yodabyte (talk) 07:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

As far as as my actual question what I'm getting at is why should Greeson and Philips be included AT ALL in the article since they both died of natural causes prior to and separate from the riot/storming. In other words, the article should state that three people died directly/indirectly related to the insurrection - Boyland, Babbitt, and Sicknick.Yodabyte (talk) 07:06, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Because I'm a strange and cryptic person, obviously. If I wrote this article, I'd cut them (and Boyland, too). But they've been part of it for so long that I think others would miss them, especially whoever added them. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:28, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Babbitt?

According to the current article Babbitt was fatally shot once in the shoulder. Is it even possible to be shot fatally in the shoulder? None of the references appear to give details, other than that she was shot so where is this claim coming from? As far as I'm aware she was shot in the chest. I'm also under the impression she was shot without warning whilst attempting to climb through a window but this isn't mentioned. I'm also seeing it claimed Capitol Police officers were warned by Metropolitan Police that participants were carrying concealed weapons, but the references do not make this claim and a couple of quick searches are not returning any results. I can see articles saying Capitol Police were generally ordered not to use less-lethal options on the day, but nothing about concealed weapon warnings. Anyone able to clarify this? 人族 (talk) 07:02, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@人族: To respond in part, the current DC Medical Examiner has stated (news reports) that Babbit had been fatally shot in the shoulder; I think the quote from the medical examiner himself provides a good source here for that fact. If you'd like to provide context into the shooting, and you find reliable sources that describe the circumstances in which Babbit was shot and killed in the way that you are recalling, then I don't object to adding it per se, provided that it doesn't begin to take up an unduly large amount of space and that it reflects reporting from reliable sources. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 07:11, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Mikehawk10:, keywords can make all the difference. Looks like the bullet entered via the front left shoulder. Doesn't state the course so perhaps it travelled through the torso rather than out the back of her shoulder? ME ruled it a homicide. 人族 (talk) 07:39, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

A gunshot to the shoulder can be fatal without reaching any other part of the body if it severs the subclavian artery (that branches out from the Aorta to supply the arm with blood). If this artery is severed in the arm itself the bleeding can be stopped by e.g. a tourniquet applied around the arm. However, such a bleeding inside the shoulder (where the artery carries more blood) cannot easily be stopped - especially not be a first responder. Lklundin (talk) 13:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

shot without warning - she illegally broke into the Capitol Building and was attempting to breach a locked and physically-barricaded set of doors leading to the House Chamber. What more warning should she have been given? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:25, 20 April 2021 (UTC

The punishment for that isn't execution. There were heavily armed responders standing very close to her who did not appear to try to stop or warn her. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Not from the images I have seen, it was one side on one side of the doors.Slatersteven (talk) 14:18, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

It's in the video of her being shot. When she falls to the ground after being shot there is a group of officers holding long guns who appear to attempt to render aid. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:23, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

After she was shot, and even if they were on her side of the doors, they were trying to prevent the attackers from breaching. So even if (and I have seen nothing to say at the time of the shot they were anywhere but on the other side of the door) they were on her side, they were already engaged and busy.Slatersteven (talk) 14:39, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

And besides, they were wanted when they breached the outside barriers, the outside doors, the inside doors. They had been wanted (both verbal;y and by police forcing them back) at every stage of illegal entry. There comes a point when the warnings have to stop and action needs to be taken when that is an attempt to breach an inner (high security) chamber by an armed mob that is it. She must have ignored multiple warnings to have got to where she was.Slatersteven (talk) 14:49, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

So that’s when it’s ok to kill people? Mr Ernie (talk) 02:27, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

My views on whether or not it is OK to kill people is not a matter for discussion, as I was not in DC at the time of the killing, nor had any influence over it (please read [[wp;soap). As such my views on killing are not relevant here.Slatersteven (talk) 12:10, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

It's not "punishment," it's lawful defense of the literal House Chamber, Members of Congress and the Vice President of the United States from an armed mob of violent insurrectionists who attempted to stop the Constitutional processes of government. I'm sorry that you think white Trump supporters are entitled to kid-glove treatment, and I feel sorry for her because she was egged on by a torrent of seditious propaganda from the president and his sycophants... but yeah, that was a clean shoot. She had several choices, and she made all of the wrong ones. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:33, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

No I get it. It’s just weird seeing you say it’s ok for cops to kill people for trespassing. I feel sorry for her too. Mr Ernie (talk) 02:30, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

trespassing - entering a closed building with the intent to commit a crime is not trespassing, it's burglary. And people get shot and killed for burglary of an occupied building fairly frequently, because that tends to be defined as home invasion and it is lawful to use deadly force against an unauthorized intruder. Please show the case law where an armed person lawfully inside a building has to "warn" an unauthorized intruder before using deadly force against said intruder. Note the "middle-ground" stand-your-ground law in D.C. - there is no duty to retreat, rather the question is whether [defendant] reasonably at the time of the incident believed that s/he was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and that deadly force was necessary to repel that danger. If I'm a Capitol Police officer whose sworn duty is to defend the lives of our country's democratically-elected lawmakers, and I'm confronted by a violent mob smashing windows and attempting to breach locked and barricaded doors leading into the House Chamber while members of Congress were present and being evacuated... yup, I'd have pulled the trigger too. The fact that there are unjustified police shootings does not mean all police shootings are unjustified. I would be happy to point to dozens upon dozens of police shootings which were clearly justified uses of deadly force. Like, say, this one. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:53, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, I'm curious. If you illegally entered a Federal building as part of an armed mob, and broke down a door guarded by armed police who were protecting elected officials from the mob, what would you expect?

The USA certainly has a problem with excessive use of deadly force by police, but this is not an example of that. The tired old phrase cops are trained to use when they shoot unarmed Black people - being in fear for their life or safety - absolutely legitimately applied here. Guy (help! - typo?) 07:51, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Just watched the video, how is that a justified police shooting? Looks like the guy is running away when the cop shoots at him Yodabyte (talk) 05:11, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Uh, did you watch as the suspect fired multiple shots at the police officer? The suspect attempted to murder the police officer, and then attempted to steal the officer's motorcycle. That is about as clear-cut a legitimate and justified use of deadly force as it gets. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:15, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you on police being able to defend themselves if they are shot at. But from the video it appears the suspect is running away at the time he is actually shot and killed. Yodabyte (talk) 05:25, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Not to get too far off on the tangent, but once someone assaults a person with a deadly weapon, the officer is entitled to use deadly force to stop that person, period. The armed suspect was not surrendering, he was attempting to continue to flee, and it is objectively reasonable to assume that the suspect would have continued to attempt to murder the officer and others, had he successfully escaped. The armed suspect forfeited any right to an "assumption of good faith" when he drew his weapon and tried to kill the officer. It would be different if the suspect had clearly thrown the weapon away and surrendered himself - but an armed suspect who attempts to commit murder does not have the right to attempt to flee justice. That use of deadly force was righteous.

Nota bene: This is a great example of where body cameras protect officers - the video provides clear and unambiguous evidence that the officer's life was in imminent danger and that his use of deadly force to stop the threat was justified. This shooting happened in the East Bay, which right-wingers love to trash as the "liberal antifa hotbed of everyone hating cops" - yet there was zero outcry about this police killing, because as tragic as it was, there can be no serious doubt that the officer acted appropriately. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:41, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@NorthBySouthBaranof: whether or not you personally believe the shooting was justified has nothing to do with whether it should be included in the article that it was without warning. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 23:43, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Which reliable source says there was no warning? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:01, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

To add, as part of a forced entry during a riot in which cops had already been attacked.Slatersteven (talk) 12:36, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Attacked by completely different people, who were successfully defeated without gunfire, if that matters. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:36, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk, no it doesn't. An armed mob was storming the Capitol, isolated and greatly outnumbered groups of cops were trying to defend the building and those in it, and in the chaos it seems unreasonable to expect them to compare notes on the progress of the insurrection elsewhere in the building. Guy (help! - typo?) 08:05, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I get your opinions, they're already prevalent in the lead, just consider mine for a while. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:11, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk, the officer who shot Babbitt was defending the access to the speaker's lobby. As the footage of the Senate chamber clearly shows, once the targets of the mob had been taken to safety, the insurrectionists were basically left to take over. There's no comparison between retreating from an empty Senate chamber and defending a door that people are trying to break down in order to - according to their own rhetoric - murder the Speaker. I know the narrative on Fox is that the officer shot, without warning, an unarmed woman exercising her First Amendment rights, but that narrative is rejected by the Capitol police, and it appears that the use of force was justified.

This is not a George Floyd, a Breonna Taylor, an Eric Garner, a Michael Brown, a Philando Castile. Babbitt was not pulled over for Driving While Black. She was a believer in insane conspiracy theories who was engaged in a violent attempt to overthrow the government. We are not, and should not be, in the business of drawing false equivalency between this and the killing of people engaged in peaceful protest or no protest at all. Guy (help! - typo?) 10:07, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Over a hundred officers, with guns and getting actually hit with physical objects, hard sometimes, fired zero times, however you explain the actions of one bad apple. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:12, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk, yes, that's a remarkable testament tot heir restraint and (of course) to white privilege. But it's irrelevant because the shot that was fired, was justified under the circumstances. I know Tucker Carlson is outraged by the fact that Derek Chauvin is in jail and this officer is not, but there is no equivalence in real life. Guy (help! - typo?) 13:18, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

That "irrelevant" violent threatening mob was your justifying circumstances for the shooting of an unarmed woman a moment ago, so I give up. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:47, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I see that the story of Ashli Babbitt — the only *actual* fatality of this riot — has been all but entirely airbrushed out of this article. Her shooting can't be a source of controversy if she's an Unperson. Good going, Wikipedia! LewisChessman (talk) 00:09, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Her death is in fact covered in the article. Feoffer (talk) 00:15, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

"All but entirely", said the Chessman. And I agree. Compared to Shooting of Justine Damond, Babbitt is basically a cameo here, barely audible above the weight of fantabulous media circus elephants. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:36, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Justine Diamond, who was lawfully on the street in front of her home. Ashli Babbitt, on the other hand, voluntarily took part in a violent mob which feloniously broke into the United States Capitol, and was further attempting to breach locked and barricaded doors into the House Chamber. I'm sorry that your false equivalency is false, and I'm sorry that Babbitt was so thoroughly duped by Trump's seditious lies that she threw her life away for nothing. That's the tragedy here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:25, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk the difference between Damond and Babbitt is Damond was just on the street and was shot for no reason by an overaggressive cop. Babbitt was breaking into a secure area of Capitol building when she was shot. I still think she shouldn't have been shot though. Why wasn't she tased, she would have fallen back thru the window from the shock of the taser. The officer would achieve the same goal of protecting members of Congress without killing someone. Yodabyte (talk) 05:26, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not flat-out equating the circumstances. Just comparing and saying, there's a remarkably large difference between having your name in the title and not even featuring into the lead. Some additional prominence is due here, I think, especially given the government's broader campaign against forceful police forces. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:37, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk, I disagree. See below. This article is about the insurrection. Babbitt wasn't an organiser or leader, there's no particular reason to believe that she would have been one of those charged had she not been shot. There won't be protests because of her death, as there were for Justine Damond. There's no evidence that the police officer acted unreasonably. This is not a George Floyd scenario. A mob was smashing down a door defended by armed police, and one of them got shot. The only remarkable thing about this is that she was the only one. Guy (help! - typo?) 07:43, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, so remark upon it like it is the only one, don't bury her true story with people wrongly assumed to have been killed by insurrection. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk, the story is not "buried". It's given the prominence it deserves in the context of an article that is about the insurrection. Guy (help! - typo?) 09:54, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Insurrections kill many people and last for more than an afternoon, in my mind. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:04, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk, the main damage the insurrection has done is becoming apparent: the Republican Party has effectively normalised it, and punishes those who criticise it, and rewards those who led and inspired it. It was the beer-hall putsch of the Trump movement. We now have to sit back and find out whether they will proceed to the Reichstag fire next time. Guy (help! - typo?) 10:11, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Both political camps have been normalizing punishing criticism since 2008, that's Twitter's problem, not imaginary insurgents who watch Fox. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:21, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk, the "problem" with Twitter is that when you shut down white supremacists, and all the white supremacists turn out to be members of the same political party, that party sees it as "oppressing" them rather than indicating a problem with white supremacism among their supporters. Guy (help! - typo?) 13:15, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

The problem I mean is just the encouragement of anger and kneejerk responses from the safety of home. Includes white supremacy topics, but nowhere near exclusively. Anything can catch fire online. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:47, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

On the opinion that Babbitt wasn't an organiser or leader, she did in fact take the initiative to enter and lead the charge. Terjen (talk) 18:01, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

LewisChessman, what are we supposed to say about her? There's a paragraph on her death, but there's no indication that she was particularly influential in the insurrection, and her death didn't change anything about its course. I know that some of the more ardent seditionists consider her a martyr, but we're not going down that rabbit hole, right? It's also tendentious to claim that she was the only "actual fatality". It's extremely unlikely that Brian Sicknick would have died had he not been assaulted by the insurrectionists. Guy (help! - typo?) 07:35, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

OK others have asked now I will, do any RS make a claim she was shot unlawfully or without warning?Slatersteven (talk) 12:13, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven, Google indicates Tucker Carlson and a large number of far-right webshites, but I can't find a RS yet. Guy (help! - typo?) 13:25, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

So, no, then.Slatersteven (talk) 13:30, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven, just so. Guy (help! - typo?) 20:43, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

She is generally described as an insurrectionist, already criminally trespassing just by being inside the Capitol, who attempted to force her way into a barricaded, secured area of the building. A member of the Capitol Police, rightly & justifiably, used lethal force to prevent potential harm to members of Congress he and others were protecting. The man's actions have been cleared, so, this is open and shut. ValarianB (talk) 13:36, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think much space should devoted to her. We don't know what her intentions were and the Capitol police has concluded that her shooting was lawful. WP:BLP among other things prevents us from speculation. TFD (talk) 14:53, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

It would've been a conflict of interest if determining whether the shooting was lawful was left to the Capitol police. Rather, it was determined by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Columbia's Public Corruption and Civil Rights Section and the Civil Rights Division, joined with the Metropolitan Police Department's Internal Affairs Division; Their investigation failed to provide evidence that the officer violated 18 U.S.C. § 242, depriving Babbitt of her rights under color of law. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Terjen (talk • contribs) 21:11, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Name change timeline?

Did we ever set a timeline for when a title change for this article can be considered? I was a proponent of the current title during the various attempts at name changes a couple of months ago. That was then, and this is now. I have no objective research to share to back up this point, but it seems as though the media (in the US at least) is at least somewhat coalescing around a common name of "January 6 [United States] Capitol insurrection." At any rate, the words "January 6" are included. (As spoken, it's an ordinal number -- 6th -- but that isn't great for Wikipedia namespace precedent.)

Not going to go on and on now. Just wondering if there's an idea when this can be reconsidered without driving everyone crazy. Moncrief (talk) 18:00, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Good idea, research into sources is needed. Why not just "January 2021 United States Capitol insurrection"? Think that was the only one that month. . dave souza, talk 09:20, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Because I don't think I've ever once heard anyone call it that. See also September 11 attacks. Moncrief (talk) 13:07, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Have we considered instead of changing the name of the article from "2021 Storming of the United States Capitol to "January 6th Terrorist Attacks"? According to the FBI, domestic terrorism is defined as "violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences, such as those of a political, religious, social, racial, or environmental nature" (https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism). I believe many would agree that those individuals who violently stormed the Capitol on January 6th would meet the FBI's definition for classification as a domestic terrorist. Given the ideologic influences that fueled the actions of January 6th, I believe that we, the Wikipedia community, should recognize the severity of these violent actions by correctly classifying them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JSEMWiki21 (talk • contribs) 21:26, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

The "insurrection" name not only failed to get consensus in at least 2 move requests (one of which was requesting another name but many people still wanted "insurrection") as it does not meet COMMONNAME by far and was considered to be potentially not NPOV. There's a consensus against calling it a "terrorist attack" in the article - and that to me should be reconsidered before any name change request. No, the media is not "coalescing around" the "insurrection" name - in fact, the insurrection name was only common for about the two weeks following the attacks in some sources, but most non-opinion articles variously call it "attack" or "storming" or "riot" - with "riot" being the most common (a plurality, but not a majority by far). If you really want to convince others that "insurrection" is the common name, you should start to accumulate and post here reliable sources (i.e. not opinion/blog articles from otherwise reliable sources, but actual news), and you should do so for all common names, including "riot", "attack", "storming", and identify how many times each one refers to it outside of quotations. Quotations in RS are another problem - a reliable source that refers to it as "riot" but has 8 quotations of people who said "insurrection" does not mean that they are referring to it as insurrection. Personally, I don't have a problem with it being reconsidered at any point - I don't think (someone will correct me if I'm wrong) that a moratorium did not reach consensus (or if it did I can't find it listed anywhere easy to see, so that probably should happen if it exists), and as such there's no real reason it can't be "considered" now. Like I said, however, that "consideration", to not be disruptive and be another frivolous and POINTy move request, should be accompanied by a thorough evaluation of reliable sources for COMMONNAME purposes - and I think it may be a better idea to just start to flesh that out here in a subsection before anyone even thinks about starting a move request. Most past move requests suffered because people !voted based on opinions without backing them up with evidence - and once the evidence actually started being evaluated (i.e. tables/lists of sources) then it was very clear that "insurrection" wasn't the common name - thus leading to the non-moves before. Regards, -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:35, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Just as a post script, the reason that it would be a good idea to spend at least a week or so with multiple editors accumulating sources for COMMONNAME consideration is that we all suffer from "selection bias" where we are more likely to select reliable sources that appear to align with our personal viewpoints. I'm not trying to say that User:Moncrief or anyone else is wrong to have a personal viewpoint, but if Moncrief and others personally think it was an insurrection, they are more likely to unintentionally ignore, pass over, or miss evidence or instances in reliable sources that do not call it an insurrection - which is why beginning with a "prequel" where people are all discussing sources would be a better idea and result in a higher likelihood of a consensus one way or another rather than another "no consensus either way so it stays". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:38, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

All of that sounds good. I find it ironic that I'm the one bringing up a name change now, as I was very much in favor of keeping the title as Storming back in... February or so. At that point, there didn't seem to be any COMMONNAME we could refer to. You're absolutely right that we need hard data to move forward. I do hear "insurrection" continually in what I consider mainstream media, but I'm not consuming a wide enough sample to make this anything more than anecdotal, which isn't good for the purposes of this article. There was a vocal group of editors who were into accumulating data about media word usage about the event a few months ago, but I don't think they're active anymore. I'm not invested enough to become one of them, so I'm going to leave this be for now. I just hope that as a group we're still on the lookout for any broad-based emergence of a COMMONNAME. I'm not sure the current title is the right one to stand the test of time. Over and out on this from me. Moncrief (talk) 15:14, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I tried to do so back in the past move requests, but I got extremely frustrated that people were basically ignoring the evidence and that in at least one case the closer just basically did a headcount and ignored all the data and arguments we tried to bring forth. If another move request is made I will probably try to compile sources again, but I’m certainly too burned out to try and do so myself - storming isn’t that bad and while I think riot is likely to be the “correct” name per common name it’s just a word change that wouldn’t fix anything right now. I think the people working on it before may have kept the data on a subpage or something, I’ll try and look into this and reply here if I find it. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 16:53, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Revert explanation

Hey Moncrief, could you please explain your reversion of my copyedits [2], since you didn't include the information in your edit summary? I was just trying to cut down the overlong lead. Thanks, —Wingedserif (talk) 21:37, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

The intro has been worked on and worked on for months. Deleting "violent attack," when that's been painstakingly decided on through long-running consensus, was not acceptable. Moncrief (talk) 21:44, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

"Riot and violent attack" is redundant, which is a problem given how excessively long the lead is (which has no prompted an issue template on the page). I also found very little about the specific combination of those terms in the talk page archive. There were also worthwhile, non-controversial copyedits in the edit; you didn't have to wholesale revert. —Wingedserif (talk) 21:56, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Deaths

There was only one fatality directly related to the riots, the Babbitt person. Mr. Sicknick died of a stroke that was unrelated to the attacks, no external or internal injuries were found to be the cause. So no police officer died. The other Trump rioters also were not victims of their riot. One died of a drug overdose (Boyland); that doesn't really have much to do with the violent breaching of the Capitol. The other two deaths had little, if anything, to do with the riot; one died of a stroke (Philipps) and did not "participate in the raids." The other died of a heart attack (Greeson); once again, how does this relate to the riots? I suggest a rewrite of the deaths and injuries section, of course, if other users agree. Any ideas? 2601:85:C101:C9D0:599B:F10B:80DF:6CF9 (talk) 01:18, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with complete erasure of these past mistakes. If people prefer the old developing story, they can find prior versions galore in the Edit History. But the current revision should reflect the present overview. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Oppose - this article shouldn't be whitewashed at the whims of the right-wing revisionists who swarmed back to it in the past week. 2601:1C0:4500:BFD0:94A4:1483:1CEE:DDA1 (talk) 05:49, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not right-wing, and I'm not swarming back, I planned my part in these revisions quietly for months before speaking up. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:26, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

• The caption to Sicknick's picture was misleading in stating he died of a stroke without any context. I've changed it to "[Sicknick] was assaulted by rioters. He died of a stroke the next day." . . dave souza, talk 09:13, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Sicknick should not be scrubbed. Not with the medical examiner’s statement that "all that transpired played a role in his condition". starship.paint (exalt) 10:46, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Good call, thanks for that. . . dave souza, talk 10:59, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Anyway I’m not in favour of scrubbing any of the five deaths from the article. I’m open to not counting them as ‘casualties’ if RS agree, however they should be mentioned to at least explain the situation. starship.paint (exalt) 13:24, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

If "all that transpired" meant "sprayed by protestors" or "assaulted by rioters", and "condition" meant "death" or "injury", maybe such desperate grasping could be a reasonable argument for casualtyhood. As is, he belongs in the Reaction section. His body played a sizable post-mortem political role. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:26, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk, why would we substitute our personal views for those of reliable sources, which count him as one of the five deaths? Guy (help! - typo?) 12:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Because the same sources acknowledge he died of natural causes, officially, medically and legally. You're getting hung up on rhetoric. And possibly a desire to punish perceived political enemies. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:02, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Good job cleaning out the clump of citations from the infobox! But now that there's only one reference on April 24, isn't it weird that it's one from January 8? Maybe there's a more recent one that counts up three known natural deaths and one accident as four of those casualties? InedibleHulk (talk) 04:19, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, the one about what we now know about Sicknick's death (currently footnote 439) is "invoked but never defined", little help? InedibleHulk (talk) 04:37, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Done.Terjen (talk) 06:49, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:58, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Again, regarding "all that transpired played a role in [Sicknick's] condition", this is a direct reference to the storming, and widely reported, from USA to UK to France to Qatar. starship.paint (exalt) 09:29, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

References

I saw the same reliable sources say it was a fire extinguisher and pepper spray, too. It wasn't. Neither is this vague glimmer of bullshit. If you want to get suckered again, be my guest. But don't spread it around, confusing innocent people. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:40, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk, do you genuinely believe that Brian Sicknick would have died when he did, had he not been hit with bear spray by the insurrectionists? Guy (help! - typo?) 22:11, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes. The problem was in his basilar artery. Bear spray temporarily irritates one's eyes, nose and throat. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:19, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Let's not shoot the messenger(s). Spinning by making much ado out of the "all that transpired" quote should simply be recognized as editorializing by the media, and we should avoid using it to create a questionable synthesis. Terjen (talk) 22:11, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

The quote isn't editorializing by the media. It's a quote from the chief medical examiner. We do not make much ado about the "all that transpired" quote, we simply state it and move on. There is no synthesis here. starship.paint (exalt) 01:33, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

@Terjen: - even the blog you provided highlighted the "all that transpired" quote. It goes as far as to say having a stressful encounter as a police officer likely played a role in why someone would have two strokes the following day. (note: I'm not saying this additional content or source should be added, the quote itself is sufficient) starship.paint (exalt) 01:45, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Note the synthesis created by our but that "all that transpired played a role in his condition" which modifies the earlier statement saying the autopsy provided no evidence of injury nor allergic reaction. Stop the presses: Having a stressful encounter may have played a role in his strokes. What are we trying to say by including the quote? How could it be paraphrased to avoid the synthesis? Terjen (talk) 02:15, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

@Terjen: - I'm thinking you may have misunderstood something here. The 'no evidence of injury nor allergic reaction' was said by Diaz to WaPo. The 'all that transpired' was also said by Diaz to WaPo. I see no contradiction, and very likely that Diaz saw no contradiction as well. It's possible that the riot affected mental stress on Sicknick. It's also possible that the riot exhausted Sicknick. I don't think either of these would leave injury or allergic reaction, though it would have affected his condition. Therefore there is no modifies the earlier statement. starship.paint (exalt) 12:06, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: The conjugation "but" in the sentence falls under MOS:EDITORIAL, indicating that the second part contradicts the first, or "calling the validity of the first statement into question while giving undue weight to the credibility of the second." Terjen (talk) 03:32, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

@Terjen: - easy, "but" changed to "and also". How about that? starship.paint (exalt) 10:15, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

As the original IP who created this new section, I propose a change to my initial request: remove all fatalities except Sicknick and Babbit. The other three should not be included, their deaths are unfortunate but ultimately unrelated to the attacks; RS confirm their deaths had little to do with the riots. They can be mentioned in the reactions section or somewhere else, but not in the infobox. Their deaths were important for understanding the events, but it should be in the context that the initial assumption about their cause of death was erroneous. I was not aware earlier of the evaluation by the forensic pathologist that prior factors—"all that transpired"—had played a role in Sicknick's death. Thus, it is along reasonable grounds to include Sicknick among the fatalities in the infobox. So Sicknick and Babbit (2 dead) in infobox.

And to make it clear, I am assuredly not a right-winger trying to "whitewash" anything. The deluded IP is under the influence of partisanship and attempting to derail our discussion. I despise both liberalism and conservatism equally, though I am cognizant enough to know both have bad and good parts, albeit incomplete. I simply am trying to help this page reflect the truth better, and would like to work alongside other users to achieve this goal.

Any thoughts on my (new) proposal? 2601:85:C101:C9D0:19FB:2B26:FEB3:C4F8 (talk) 20:36, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

I propose resolving the ambiguity in the infobox by relabeling the "Death(s)" field to "Violent Death(s)", allowing us to not count those that died of natural or self-inflicted causes. Terjen (talk) 22:17, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

No. We can't change the number from five until we have a source that unambiguously gives another number, and even then we would probably have to say "x-5; sources vary" or the like. The reason is because of the language in Medical Examiner's report, which states "an unprecedented incident of civil insurrection at the United States Capitol resulted in the deaths of five individuals." If you want the article to state that it resulted in anything other than the deaths of five individuals, you need a source saying so specifically - people's personal opinions about how we should count or define it simply cannot overcome the medical examiner's report unambiguously stating the incident resulted in five deaths. If you believe they counted it wrong or used incorrect criteria, you could send them a letter suggesting a correction; but until / unless they issue one we're stuck with their criteria and their count. --Aquillion (talk) 22:25, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Agree on reliable sourcing for violent deaths. The truth usually prevails. Until then, WP:NOTRIGHT. Terjen (talk) 22:56, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

I envy how you can disregard the much more detailed part of that same report that says no signs of injury or allergic reaction were found in this natural death. Or how the same applies to Greeson, Philips and Boyland. But they were somehow still killed by a violent mob of alleged racist terrorists, because news. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:58, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

To the good 2601, regarding "all that transpired", that wasn't an earlier pathological evaluation, it was cherrypicked from a longer interview with a reporter from and for The Washington Post, by a WaPo editor, over three months after Diaz certified Sicknick's death (which is not a synonym for "condition") as what it was. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:08, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

(Original IP) I would argue otherwise, and frankly I would prefer Terjen's proposal. It makes sense that Sicknick died from the stress of the riot, that would stress me out as well. I suggest everyone to look at the 2020–21 United States election protests page infobox, with the short explanation regarding the deaths (perhaps we can do it via a footnote?). 2601:85:C101:C9D0:89CF:B997:98E8:49DD (talk) 19:46, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

(Original IP) Upon reading the article by Greenwald, I understand your argument, and I even agree. But I've been on Wiki long enough to know that this site isn't always factual. I think we can all agree that footnotes in the infobox, explaining the causes of death, would be beneficial for this article. Anyone else support footnotes in the infobox? I think it's a good compromise. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:89CF:B997:98E8:49DD (talk) 20:04, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

The sheer number of edits User:Terjen has made to this article is alarming, given their clear agenda as relates to the topic of USA politics, such as when they attempted to argue that the Boogaloo boys should not be classified as far-right. Where is oversight on this? 2601:1C0:4500:BFD0:D20:DD2E:EE0B:A291 (talk) 19:55, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Stop trying to poison the well. Your opinions on other people's opinions are irrelevant. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:89CF:B997:98E8:49DD (talk) 20:04, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Hold on! Opening a civilized discussion to challenge a mislabeling is how we do it on Wikipedia. You are welcome to participate in the ongoing debate and voice your position, including responding to my arguments why we shouldn't label the anti-government, anti-authoritarian Boogaloo movement as far right, which we here on Wikipedia define to be "further on the right than the standard political right ... in terms of being anti-communist, authoritarian, ultranationalist, nativist, chauvinist, xenophobic, theocratic, racist, homophobic, transphobic, or reactionary". The shoe doesn't fit: They're reasonably neither left-wing nor right-wing, particularly as defined on wikipedia. Terjen (talk) 20:35, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

The article you linked is filed under the subject "The far-right". It says "extremism experts agree that “boogaloo” ideology overall is, in fact, rightwing." Either you don't read the sources you cite or you're intentionally being intellectually dishonest. 2601:1C0:4500:BFD0:1457:D16B:CB79:4CBB (talk) 06:13, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

The article showcases various experts clarifying what they mean with "right-wing" in ways substantially inconsistent our definition of far-right here on Wikipedia, such as: "Another clear sign that “boogaloo” boys are rightwing is their decision to show up with guns to guard private businesses"; "“They hold up things like the McVeigh bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building and the armed response to Ruby Ridge as heroic moments in American history,” where citizens stood up to government oppression"; "While some anarchists have embraced “boogaloo” rhetoric, these are primarily are “rightwing anarchists”" - protecting private businesses, celebrating citizens standing up to what they perceive as government oppression, and anti-government anarchism are all a stark contract to the "anti-communist, authoritarian, ultranationalist, nativist, chauvinist, xenophobic, theocratic, racist, homophobic, transphobic, or reactionary" far-right. Terjen (talk) 06:35, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

The boogaloo stance seems in line with the general messsage of Rick Derringer and Hulk Hogan's "Real American", which pretty closely aligns with this liberal Canadian stoner's worldview. "Courage is the thing that keeps us free" doesn't resemble authoritarian ultranationalist fearmongering at all, and "fight for the rights of every man" doesn't exclude those of coloured men, gay men, women or trans men. Theocracy is fine, if it's a universally recognized god, like fire. Long story short, getting mistaken for a far-righter hurts my pride, but if mistaken for a boogaloo, I could let it slide. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:45, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support and Oppose Support removal of Police Office Sicknick. His death is now not a homicide. He simply died a day and a half after the riots. That doesn't mean it's not tragic. As for the others, it's widely cited and so far no news reports about that they didn't die. Inkfo (talk) 06:28, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

We all agree they died during the event, just not whether they were casualties of it. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:52, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. We say what the sources say. If the sources are wrong, so are we. We are not here to correct the fact that the real world does not consider Ashli Babbitt to be the real victim of 1/6, or to whitewash out the toll that it took on others. Guy (help! - typo?) 07:27, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

(Original IP) I don't care what you think about whitewashing or no whitewashing, your opinions of the riots are irrelevant. I do not oppose keeping the 5 deaths (what you wish), all I ask is that a footnote explaining the circumstances of their death be placed in the infobox. The footnote, of course, being sourced with RS. I am a dynamic IP, so I cannot edit this page; the implication is you pick the sources used for the footnotes. It's a compromise; the 5 deaths stay, a footnote explanation is added. I think we both can agree fully on that. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:6CF4:481D:906D:62D7 (talk) 14:31, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

2601:85:C101:C9D0:6CF4:481D:906D:62D7, nope. If the sources are "wrong", then so are we. That's how it works. If listing Brian Sicknick as a victim hurts the feels of "blue lives matter" insurrectionist "patriots" then that's really not our problem to fix. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:18, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Frankly, your reply is rather daft, specifically because you bring up blue lives matter, which I don't care in the very least about. I struggle to understand why you brought that up. I don't know if you are intentionally trying to frame the discussion about footnotes around supporting the rioters. The fact that you had to bring up the stupidity of the side you vilify your comment, even when I didn't mention the idiots, makes me question whether you actually read my post. I will try one more time, because, surprisingly, we are actually in agreement.

I never said the sources are wrong. I never said the sources are right. You say that Wikipedia reflects what RS say, full stop. I agree. It is immaterial to me (and to you) if Sicknick is a victim or not. If the RS say so, Wiki puts that down. So... my proposal to add a footnote explaining the cause of death does not affect this. All the victims remain in the infobox, Sicknick included. All that is added is a footnote for each victim, explaining (using RS) the cause of death (using RS). That is it. A minor addition, helping visitors to this page understand the context of their death. See, this is not a "partisan" attempt to make Trumptards into "patriots." See? We are in agreement. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:6CF4:481D:906D:62D7 (talk) 00:00, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I also agree with you two on those things. In a section above, JzG brought up a laundry list of things this event has nothing to do with, from Chauvin to Castille to the Reichstag, and he's still absolutely right. As for your proposed reliably sourced and currently up-to-date footnotes, original 2601, I support them as a compromise. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:18, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk, I think the right place to discuss the nuance is in the section on deaths and injuries. Putting an asterisk by things looks like a nod to the fringe narrative of only one victim. I have read some of the coverage on conservative websites, and I think we are being pushed towards a narrative that is not seen in mainstream sources. Maybe you see it differently. Guy (help! - typo?) 08:34, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

The idea that pepper spray can kill is fringe. Absolutely baseless speculation. So is the idea that insurgents cause amphetamine overdoses. Stop talking to me. You've gone kooky! InedibleHulk (talk) 08:45, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@InedibleHulk: I think both you and JzG make some good points, but both of you sometimes express them in a way that makes it hard for others to reach an NPOV consensus. Let's all try to cool down and remember WP:AGF. That last sentence ("gone kooky") is a personal attack. I think you should strike or delete it. Thanks! — Chrisahn (talk) 10:53, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

If I did, it would come across like I want him to stop talking to me for no reason. I wouldn't be so rude. I went kooky myself once, it's not terminal, I wish him well. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:23, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• More to the point, for people claiming that our source texts are wrong, how do we know that the source texts are wrong? We need a different source. You can't just say "they are wrong" without providing the contradictory sources. The Medical Examiners report cites 5 deaths. Secondary sources discuss the medical examiners report and also report the five deaths. Where is your contradictory source? Another, equally reliable source, would be acceptable. But we can't just alter what the existing sources say just because we personally disagree with them. That's not how Wikipedia works. We can't even say the sources are wrong without sources to say so; that's just you asserting they are wrong. Anyone can assert anything; what you need to do to change the article is provide reliable sources to back up your assertions. --Jayron32 17:02, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Sicknick should be removed as well as the chap who died before the riot. The list of deaths for any event should only include people who died as a result of the event, at the event, or in some way that significantly affected the event. There is a bizarre insistence on including what every RS now says was a natural death. It is now abundantly clear that, per RS, the ME's report "cites natural causes in officer’s death, drawing no links to Jan. 6 attack." Hanging on to a single vague, tautological quote from a single source—which in no way draws a link between the riot and Sicknick's death—is absurd and contrafactual. We all now understand that the media blew this one—as well as the OD death misreported as a woman "trampled to death"—but that's not in any way an excuse for continuing to include thoroughly discredited misinformation. The brouhaha over Sicknick's death should be included—as it was a big part of the fallout from the event—but obviously not by including him as a death or casualty of the riot. There is a real credibility issue for Wikipedia here, and it's disturbing that this is even in question. Elle Kpyros (talk) 17:46, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose modification of the death count at this time. The alt-right havens are ablaze with efforts to disassociate Sicknick from the Capitol Hill death tally, but a premediated pepper spray attack and an otherwise-healthy man dies 31 hours later is not coincidental. This is still considered by the Capitol Police as an "in the line of duty" death. ValarianB (talk) 18:32, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support removal of the unrelated deaths of people who happened to be at the protest at some point before they died. There was only one death at the protest, it was of the unarmed protestor. Any attempt to shoehorn other people in the body count is clearly done for POV purposes and is in direct opposition to the goals of Wikipedia. Innican Soufou (talk) 20:05, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

  Innican Soufou, s/unarmed protester/mad QAnon conspiracist who was part of an armed mob trying to breach the doors into the Speaker's Lobby and murder Nancy Pelosi/ Guy (help! - typo?) 20:17, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Innican Soufou (talk) 20:33, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Innican Soufou, no, I don't think it is. casting Babbitt as "unarmed" is to isolate her from the context of an armed mob that caused life-changing injuries to numerous law enforcement personnel in their attempt to prevent the certification of the results of Trump's defeat.

Insurreections have consequences. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:16, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

This is exact the kind of toxic, uninformed, misleading rhetoric I'm talking about. You're free to have those opinions, even if they aren't based in reality. Just be careful about injecting them in a supposed neutral, fact-based platform like this one. Innican Soufou (talk) 21:50, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

JzG, this comment provides no help to this discussion - it's merely you voicing your opinions on the one person everyone agrees should be listed. I respect that we have different views on a lot of things and I have seen you make very useful comments on this talk page, but this isn't one of them and in fact it's hurtful to this discussion. Please don't use talk page discussions to attempt to force your view onto others or explain your personal viewpoint - especially when it's completely unrelated to the discussion. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 22:12, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Berchanhimez, alternative hypothesis: trying to portray Ashli Babbitt as the sole, and innocent, victim of the insurrection, is a gross violation of NPOV. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:17, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

That's not what was said, that's not what you responded with. You responded to two words with what amounts to a rant as to whether she was at fault for her death or not - which is not what's being discussed. You're not helping here with that sort of comment. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 22:23, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Berchanhimez, that's not what I said. What we have here is a small group of people apparently trying to portray four of the five deaths attributed by reliable sources to the insurrection, as somehow unrelated, and, at the same time, portray someone who was in the midst of a terrifying mob storming the Speaker's Corridor, as an innocent victim.

That's WP:SYN and a violation of WP:NPOV. Fixing the errors of reliable sources is not how Wikipedia works. Like the Hitch-Hiker's Guide, we are "definitively inaccurate". The infobox should say five died, as the RS do, and the nuance can be handled in the section on deaths and injuries (some of which were life-changing).

Any proposed "compromise" is between the way the mainstream media represent things (five deaths directly attributed), and the way the right-wing media portray it (one innocent woman shot by police inna George Floyd stylee, and some dudes who died purely coincidentally). The opposite of mainstream is not conservative. The opposite of mainstream is fringe. The narrative on NewsMax, OANN, Breitbart and the rest is a fringe narrative. Wikipedia is a mainstream encyclopaedia. We're not here to split the difference between reality-based coverage and the fantasy world of patriots peacefully protesting the theft of the election that their guy won in a landslide. Context matters here. We can understand the fact that people come here with heads full of Tucker Carlson, but we should not treat that as a reasonable or fact-based worldview. It's like WP:RANDY. Guy (help! - typo?) 08:30, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

If context matters so much, why do you keep ignoring the context the RS provide around the 5 number, where virtually universally they clarify the number somewhere in the same article as being comprised of 1 shooting, 3 natural causes the day of, and 1 natural causes the next day? You cannot pick and choose which parts of reliable sources you want to use - you either use the entire context of the source or you don't. And no, they don't attribute the deaths to the "insurrection" - they carefully say that the deaths occurred at/around the events - not that they were caused by the events. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 19:45, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Berchanhimez, I'm not ignoring it. The context belongs ins the section on deaths and injuries, not in the infobox or lede, because the high level summaries in RS do exactly the same. Guy (help! - typo?) 19:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

That's saying "it's okay for us to have incomplete and misleading information in the infobox just because we correct the context later on". No, it's not okay to have incomplete information in an infobox - either it should contain complete information (through the use of footnotes if necessary) or it should not contain the information at all. The high level summaries in RS clarify the natural deaths versus the shooting death - usually in the same sentence but at least in the same paragraph as the first time they say 5 deaths happened. It is not appropriate to advocate for incomplete and misleading information in the infobox just because "it's correct elsewhere on the page". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 19:54, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

As the original poster, how about we focus on the compromise of adding footnotes regarding each death in the infobox. Everyone is kept, but an explanation (using RS) of the context of their death is given. Judging from the rhetoric being used in this section, I feel like this is becoming a debate forum on American politics. I think the compromise solution of footnotes will seal the deal. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:49FC:8AF0:F026:E26D (talk) 22:06, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

How about we compromise and only include the death of the person that was directly a result of the protest, which is the subject of the article? Listing deaths of people that weren't a direct result of the protests is misleading. Innican Soufou (talk) 22:14, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Innican Soufou, how about we compromise and include all the people whose deaths and life-changing injuries are attributed by reliable sources to the insurrection. Guy (help! - typo?) 22:16, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely. That would mean that we only mention the injuries and single death of the unarmed protestor at the hands of capital police. Thank you for agreeing with me. Innican Soufou (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Innican Soufou, reliable independent sources attribute five deaths and numerous life-changing injuries to the insurrection. To state otherwise is to call into question your understanding of what Wikipedia considers to be a reliable source. To constantly and obsessively describe insurrectionist Babbitt as "unarmed" indicates a likely bias and motive for failing to follow reliable sources. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:04, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose modification of the death count at this time, as ValarianB said. The current text adequately acknowledges the ambiguities. We can afford to wait until greater clarity emerges before we run off to change it. XOR'easter (talk) 22:42, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

(Original IP) Damn it, let me try again, hopefully my proposal doesn't get hijacked by political commentary this time. I'll do it slowly. How about we add footnotes in the infobox explaining (using RS) the context (using RS) of death (using RS) for each of the 5 people (yes all five). I don't give a freaking damn what you think about anything, I don't give a damn what you think about Babbit or Sicknick or the rest. All I am asking, and listen closely guys, is that footnotes for all five are added in the infobox, explaining the reason and cause of death for each one. Strokes, gunshot, overdose, put whatever you like. Do you guys understand this time? A compromise. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:49FC:8AF0:F026:E26D (talk) 23:58, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Do you think there's a civil way to say this? Innican Soufou (talk) 01:16, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

He tried five or six gentler wordings already, see above for what good that did. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:29, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

It seems to me like this might overload the infobox, so to speak (in terms of keeping it readable, not in terms of what the software can handle); generally, boxes are good for data that can be expressed concisely. XOR'easter (talk) 06:09, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

The same field had eight unbundled citations for weeks or months until five days ago, it can handle up to five nuggets of truth (some sources say how all five died in one). InedibleHulk (talk) 06:19, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

If people are worried about having 5 footnotes linked from the infobox, how about we just have one foot note with a list of whatever explaining all five. That said I'm not sure if it's necessary since it seems that this sort of information can and should be dealt with in the article so there's no need for a footnote or five. Nil Einne (talk) 11:39, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

That'd be best, a neat bundle. But since the field is specifically for casualties of a human act, and four are known to have not been homicide victims, at least some disclaimer/clarifier/whatever is needed. Even if we went with the one actual casualty, we'd probably need to explain why to some people, for some reason. InedibleHulk (talk) 11:48, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Exactly, I would be on board with that. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:1458:E118:537B:E37A (talk) 16:09, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

2601:85:C101:C9D0:49FC:8AF0:F026:E26D, mainstream sources say that five people died and others suffered life-changing injuries. Sure, there's nuance. Nuance goes in the section on deaths and injuries, not in the infobox. The fact that sedition supporters find the death toll offensive is really not our problem to fix. Guy (help! - typo?) 08:17, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

(Original IP) I totally understand your point. We really are on the same page here. But I don't think footnotes or further explanation will harm the infobox much. I'll give a few examples. The Invasion of Åland page lists one Swede dead in the infobox, but describes it as suicide. Or the infobox date for the Somali Civil War page, it has a rather large footnote explaining the variation in dating. Or the The Holocaust infobox, the deaths part has a large footnote explaining why 6 million is the displayed number. Or the Strategic bombing during World War II infobox, the deaths for Germany and Japan have a long list of sources and quotes to explain variations in the toll. So the addition of a footnote would have precedence on Wikipedia. Of course, the deaths and injuries section would go into much deeper explanation of the victims' deaths, but a footnote in the infobox, with a summary from RS about the cause of death, would be quite helpful. Personally, I think it would make a small improvement to the page. I, like you, oppose catering to fringe lunatics. And to assuage your fears, I can assure you, from a politically neutral fellow, I do not think footnotes (or just a singular footnote of context with RS) would be catering to the far-right. It would just make the infobox, which is a summary of the events, more complete. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:1458:E118:537B:E37A (talk) 16:09, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose as per Guy, Aquillion, XOR'easter and ValarianB Wikipedia is solely based on reliable sources, the death count we record in this article is based only on those reliable sources. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 12:41, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

  There's a box with ten reliable sources in this very section, explaining how three of the presumed casualties died naturally, and one by a non-violent accident. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:56, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

  • • All those citations only really cover Sicknick. Yes they all quote DC Chief Medical Examiner Dr Francisco Diaz that the manner of Sicknick's death was "natural" after the riot (with no direct evidence of it being brought on by physical or chemical injury) BUT they also clearly go on to say that

      "Diaz’s ruling does not mean Sicknick was not assaulted or that the violent events at the Capitol did not contribute to his death. The medical examiner noted Sicknick was among the officers who engaged the mob and said “all that transpired played a role in his condition.”"

      We know what had transpired was that a few hours before his collapse Sicknick in the line of duty had to grapple with an aggressive mob of pro-Trump rioters who violently attacked and overran police to force their way into the seat of US government. How much the riot played in his death is not known BUT as Diaz clearly states in all ten reliable sources that all that transpired played a role in his condition.” Officer Sicknick and two other police officers were injured and temporarily blinded “as a result of being sprayed in the face” with an unidentified substance by Khater and Tanios, according to the F.B.I. Capitol Police force said “This does not change the fact Officer Sicknick died in the line of duty, courageously defending Congress and the Capitol.” Ashli Babbitt, was shot to death during the riot. Two others died of complications from heart disease (stress of a mass riot not helping) and one death yes was an amphetamine overdose. But I am no seeing a ruling or statement saying the riot played no part in their deaths. ~ BOD ~ ^TALK 16:59, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
    • The deaths are clearly part of the story of this violent riot, and need to be covered in this article. It also needs to give weight to the assaults on officers, including Sicknick, sustained in the line of duty. One has found it "very difficult seeing elected officials and other individuals whitewash the events of that day or downplay what happened. Some of the terminology that has been used, like ‘hugs and kisses’ and ‘very fine people’ – very different from what I experienced and what my co-workers experienced on the 6th." ` More on this – Pilkington, Ed (28 April 2021). "US officer beaten by rioters condemns effort to 'whitewash' Capitol attack". the Guardian. Retrieved 28 April 2021.. – looks to be a developing story. . dave souza, talk 17:28, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose any removals or changing the number at this time, support one footnote after the number of deaths which explains that 3 died due to medical issues that were not caused by the riot, one died the next day of a medical issue. As an example footnote: Three people died during the riot due to medical emergencies suffered at the riot, and one police officer died the next day due to strokes. There are other articles with footnotes that explain why people are/are not included in a count - alternatively, some list similarly to "5 total" and then leave it to the prose to describe the manner of death for each - that would potentially also be acceptable. I also support replacing the source currently in the infobox with a more recent source that says there were 5 deaths - because most are correct that sources are still widely using "five". However, what a lot of people don't seem to look at in the sources is that they say 5 people died at the riot, not because of the riot - and I think that labelling deaths as "5" without a footnote implies that they were all caused by the riot. We are supposed to look at reliable sources in their entirety and not just cherry-pick the number 5 out of them without also including the same qualifications the sources do - i.e. intentionally describing 3 of them as natural causes during the riot, and one of them as natural causes after the riot. I think everyone here needs to take a step back and realize that neither extreme (5 without a footnote, or changing that number) is wholly in compliance with NPOV - because both of them ignore one part of the sources. You cannot say that "we take RS that say 5 to cite this" without also saying "we need to provide the same qualifications as the sources do when they say 5". As such, a footnote is the best way to rectify this issue. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 19:43, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

(Original IP) I wholly concur. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:C5ED:2AAF:FEC6:B88 (talk) 23:02, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support "I suggest a rewrite of the deaths and injuries section" was the original inquiry. It seems very clear to me that with a new piece of developing news coming to light, that a rewrite of the deaths and injuries section is order. That is not to say that the passing of Sicknick or the other three deaths are not tragic, irrelevant ,or should be scrubbed from the article entirely. Sicknick is certainly relevant and he should be mentioned in the article given his relevance among reliable sources in addition to the fact there is an entire article dedicated to Sicknick in particular. That being said, it's dishonest to say that Sicknick or those three deaths were causalities of the riot. Reliable sources very clearly say that Sicknick died of a stroke the day after the riot at the Capitol. Their causes of death, as the original posts elaborates, were unfortunately natural and unrelated to what occurred on Jan. 6th. Are they irrelevant to the Jan. 6th riot? Absolutely not, and I do not support expunging them from the article entirely due to the plethora of sources mentioning and discussing them. However, the infobox should make it clear who died on that day because of what happened. Stroke, heart attack, or drug overdose should not be counted as deaths caused by the incident. AdvancedScholar (talk) 02:01, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Lead Figures

Shouldn't Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani and others who helped to incite the storming at the "Save America" Rally be included under lead Figures? Rudy Giuliani "Let's have trial by combat" Mo Brooks "Today is the day, American Patriots start taking down names and kicking some ass" . There is a lot to quotes from key figures in the Save America Rally that seem to encourage the storming and violence. Many who stormed the capitol confirm they did so because of the words of their president and other speakers at the rally. DentalHygienist (talk) 05:36, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

It should be completely removed. Its misleading and original research and is unsourced. Nettless (talk) 13:51, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Is it in the article?Slatersteven (talk) 13:55, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Ahh I see it was, and has been removed, no they were not leaders.Slatersteven (talk) 13:58, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

You believe that without Donald Trump's speech at the Save America Rally the storming still would have occurred? In your opinion there were no leaders or key figures in the January 6th Storming? Seems like a tough sell. DentalHygienist (talk) 03:06, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

This is the beauty of Wikipedia - we don't have to care about whose "opinion" is right or not, because we just follow what reliable sources say - and I haven't seen a single source which calls Trump the "leader" of the storming. Kinda hard to lead something that you aren't telling people to do, aren't giving orders to people about, and aren't present at anyway, if you want my "opinion". And yeah, I think that there were enough wackos in DC on that day that there was bound to be some kind of violent riotous activity happen to something - there were some people who literally went there just to "stir shit", no matter how much they claim they were there to "peacefully protest" for Trump. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:34, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I understand your point and Trump did not directly tell his people to storm the capitol. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/capitol-rioters.html It is tricky to decide who counts as a lead figure and who doesn't. Trump organized that rally and that meeting of his supporters though. "Be there, be wild" His speech was filled with violent imagery. Without Trump organizing that Rally and without his claims of fraud and encouragement to "take back our country" I scarcely doubt January 6th's storming would have happened. The FBI has interviewed hundreds of suspects who admitted Trump was the reason for their behavior. United States Attorney for the District of Columbia discusses Trump's role here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoAqWnD7NTI&ab_channel=60Minutes https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riot-investigation-sedition-charges-60-minutes-2021-03-21/ DentalHygienist (talk) 01:57, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Addition of groups and lead figures

The pro trump groups and opposing groups were added to the infobox on 12 April with no discussion or explanation despite previous discussions deciding against it. It might make sense to have groups in the infobox however some additions are undue or poorly sourced. The mention of neo Confederate groups is sourced to a snopes fact check about one guy with a confederate flag. The mention of neo nazi groups is sourced to an article talking about individual neo nazis being present as opposed to groups. There needs to be a discussion as it was previously decided against to have groups and it ought to a have a more coherent sources because it seems like OR now. In addition, editors keep adding lead figures which is unsourced including Gavin Mcinnes who wasn't even present in the city. Nettless (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

I've removed it, as the consensus at the previous discussion was very clear and all the arguments I and others made there still apply. Consensus can change, but there's been no further discussion that I can see. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 15:20, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Nettless, meh. Just put "Fa". That encompasses all of the above. Guy (help! - typo?) 21:16, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

January 5 Meeting

The current "January 5 meeting" category lists "Attendees included Donald Jr and Eric Trump, Michael Flynn, and Corey Lewandowski. Alabama Senator Tommy Tuberville has since stated that he did not attend the meeting[123] but evidence appears to show otherwise.[124][125]" I believe that the names Rudy Giuliani and Kimberly Guilfoyle should be included in this list, and that Tommy Tuberville should be confirmed. This is based on information listed in a Facebook post and video about the meeting made by claimed attendee Daniel Beck; I find his video and post to be credible because of the corresponding locations and predictions that "something big" was planned for the next day. I cannot access the original Facebook post from Beck's page but a picture of it is linked here: https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/january-5-meeting-at-trump-international (I'm sorry if this addition is posted improperly! This is my first time editing.) Nmarcinkus (talk) 21:01, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

That's not a reliable, secondary source that can be used on Wikipedia. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:06, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Berchanhimez, true, but it's worth watching - Abramson has a tendency to be annoying but right, and he shows his working, extensively. Guy (help! - typo?) 20:14, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

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