Talk:Sarah Palin

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Confirmed?

It's obviously confirmed. It's sourced everywhere. Get over it. /me

CNBC says it's her, but I can't think how to fit this in with all the other stuff that's going on. And I'm personally not convinced so I'll leave it to another editor to decide. Oroso (talk) 13:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

It's only two hours until the official announcement, I think we can wait that long. Kelly ^hi! 13:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Make it two if you want to count this as a reliable source. Oroso (talk) 13:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Now the Chicago Tribune. Oroso (talk) 14:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Add CNN to that list too —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.81.147.160 (talk) 14:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

McCain advisers confirmed that she's the Veep. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.77.70 (talk) 14:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.mccainpalin.com/ Seems to confirm this as well Cavafox (talk) 14:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Has different registration info to johnmccain.com, and... an insurance advert. Presumably not an official campaign site.--The Bruce (talk) 15:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I will give you the registration, its possible that they actually had people who were smart in trying to hide it. I am not seeing any advertisements when I load the site. Just a front page with an image and some text. It may be my security settings though. Cavafox (talk) 15:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The ad is still there when I look (it's for ICICI Lombard, though I don't think that's significant - it just seems to be a googlead). The whois info indicates it was registered by the proxy on January 29 (the day of the Florida primary). That's more than a month before McCain became the presumptive nominee. So if it is genuine, then unless his team registered a whole slew of sites for everyone they were considering (and did so before even Romney dropped out), the whole veepstake thing was a sham. If that's true, I wonder if he had to cut some kind of deal in return for one of the endorsements he got during the Flordia campaign. But as I say, I still think it's a fan site of some sort, not part of the McCain campaign.--The Bruce (talk) 15:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The ad I see is a "paid for by john mccain" one about who's the biggest celebrity. It's also been in the news lately that mccain has been quite active in internet based advertising, specifically noting higher bidding on key adwords terms related to issues in this election cycle. 171.159.192.10 (talk) 15:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

"On August 29, 2008, presumptive GOP nominee John McCain chose Palin as his nominee for vice president." Actually, he announced her selection today. Presumably, he actually made that selection days or weeks ago. 66.218.190.100 (talk) 15:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

STOP EDITING IT. SHE IS THE NOMINEEE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.161.247.39 (talk) 16:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

No, she is the presumptive nominee until she officially receives the nomination at the convention.--JayJasper (talk) 16:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You happy now? It's all over the major networks that she IS THE NOMINEE! --Krakaet (talk) 18:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

No, she is still the presumptive nominee until she officially receives the nomination at the convention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.22.229.180 (talk) 18:40, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

L:earn some politics. McCain is currently the presumptive nominee officially, also. It's not official until the convention.

Someone please tell me this same conversation was on Biden's talk page! Strawberry Island (talk) 22:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

How can you keep saying this? John McCain has a website that confirms it now![1] --Krakaet (talk) 02:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Public domain video

We have some public domain video of Sarah Palin, shot by the Department of Defense, that can be found here. Do we have anyone with sufficient technical expertise to convert some of it into a Wikipedia-compatible OGG format? Kelly ^hi! 15:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Miss Alaska in lead

I've removed it more than once now. I don't think a detail this minor belongs in the lead. It's already stated in the article. Comments? --Elliskev 15:16, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, it's trivia, really. Kelly ^hi! 15:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree as well. Hobartimus (talk) 15:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. The reality is that beauty is important. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. Miss Alaska is a big deal! It should be included and would be on someone else's page. 72.91.214.42 (talk) 03:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Is it PAY-lin? Michael of Monty Python seems to say it differently. 216.179.123.111 (talk) 15:18, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You're correct - maybe someone with expertise at the IPA symbology can place that here. Kelly ^hi! 15:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Erm I thought Michael was also "PAY-lin". Can someone put the correct pronunciation in English, not IPA gibberish? Timrollpickering (talk) 16:23, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Correct, Michael Palin's Palin is pronounced "PAY-lin". – ukexpat (talk) 17:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean "the correct pronunciation in English, not IPA gibberish"? IPA is universal and using IPA any English speaker (or non-English speaker) can accurately pronounce the name. If we write "PAY-lin" how does that help? The pronunciation of 'PAY' depends on which country you are living in. If you have a problem then learn IPA.--217.202.153.5 (talk) 18:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Please link

{{editprotected}} [ja:サラ・ペイリン] = Sarah Palin Japanese version.Please make a link.from japan219.106.52.108 (talk) 15:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

First, this was the wrong template, in the future use {{Editsemiprotected}}. Second, this has been added. Oren0 (talk) 15:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Election Results

Apologies if this question belongs elsewhere but how is it possible that the Margin of Error on the Election Results for Ms. Palin is 7.6%? That seems inordinately high for actual election results (as opposed to, say, exit polls). In fact, the contender with the next highest number of votes (Tony Knowles) is within that MoE. Furthermore, how can Ms. Palin's number be so unprecise when all of the other contenders have MoE within 1%? I'm not trying to suggest anything untoward, just curious how this sort of thing is possible and hoping somebody can shed some light. Cheers. Daqron (talk) 15:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Pro-death penalty in parantheses after the pro-life statement

I don't see that one has anything to do with the other, however they are placed in such a way as to imply a relationship. Being against abortion is unrelated to being for the death penalty for convicted criminals. Moreover it's pretty common for people who hold the former opinion to also hold the later, which leads me to suspect that whoever edited it that way did so for the sole purpose of suggesting some sort of conflict in logic between what are in reality two distinct issues. I suggest editing it to two seperate sentences. 199.133.19.254 (talk) 15:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this is really poorly written and needs to be clarified. The parenthetical stands out as an absolute, and in some instances a person who truthfully calls herself pro-life may in fact support use of capital punishment. It would be better here to clearly state her stances, in detail, regarding abortion, euthanasia, and capital punishment. 198.242.210.113 (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes whoever wrote it was probably politically motivated but how can anyone not see the conflict of logic there? How can the American religious nutters who are so against abortion for religious reasons also be the same people who support the death penalty? I should also stress that I am against abortion but I don't feel its the place of a government to leglislate on this matter.--217.202.153.5 (talk) 18:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no conflict of logic. There is no fallacy of any sort, there is no error in reasoning for someone to hold bot those positions. Those positions are mutually exclusive and certainly not contradictory. Abortion is killing a human being who is exceedingly early in growth and development. Capitol Punishment is the killing of a human being who is developed and sapient as well as having been convicted of a serious crime against humanity like murder or treason. The former kills an undeveloped human being at the whim of anther's will. The latter kills a human being who has himself assaulted and destroyed another human beings life, or betrayed his country into the hands of the enemy. The moral implications of each position are radically different. Clear enough for you? Furthermore as a Christian (pro-life), an American, and an advocate of the death penalty please demonstrate some restrain and respect by not insulting a significant number of Americans, including myself, with the reprehensible attitude demonstrated in your use of the phrase "religious nutters". Thank you. Have a good day. -- An-Alteran

There absolutely is a conflict of logic here. The Catholic church is pro-life, and does not condone killing whether it is an unborn fetus or a convicted killer. the logical inconsistency is arguing that God's will says the life of the unborn is valuable but not acknowledging the same value in all lives. religious nutter is unfortunate, maybe religious extremist is the better phrase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.249.86 (talk) 22:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Jet sale

Wikipedia lists the sale price at 2.7, NYT citation lists at 2.1. Someone who has access should correct that.

I fixed this. Just so you know, anyone can edit wikipedia. If you're interested, you can find out more at Help:Contents/Getting_started. Thanks. RobHar (talk) 16:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, except not EVERYONE can edit wikipedia especially when the page is locked.

Text moves

I tried to revert the text moves by Wayfarers43 (talk · contribs) but ended up blanking the section due to edit conflicts. Wayfarers43 moved the family/personal background information to the bottom of the article per "journalism standards". I think this should be moved back up, as we're not writing a news paper article. This is meant to be a bio. - auburnpilot talk 15:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Neither a candidate nor a nominee

Let's get the wording right. Palin is neither a candidate nor a nominee for vice president at this point. She is merely John McCain's pick to be the nominee. If nominated next week by the convention, she will be then be the nominee. --Crunch (talk) 16:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Terminology therefore should be corrected to "presumptive nominee" FatherStorm (talk) 16:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

That's correct. --Crunch (talk) 16:19, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, "presumptive" is right - it is the same convention we followed for Joe Biden last week. Kelly ^hi! 16:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Slightly different because Biden was at least a candidate for President at some point, but you've the point. --Crunch (talk) 16:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

To quote from the Presumptive nominee article: "In politics, the presumptive nominee is a political candidate who is all but assured of his party's nomination, but has not yet been formally nominated." Palin (McCain, too, for that matter) will not be formally nominated until the Republican convention is held.--JayJasper (talk) 16:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I just saw McCain announcing her publicly as his VP pick on all the major cable news networks. That good enough? :) -- Atama^chat 16:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

No. John McCain isn't a nominee either. See presumptive nominee. Oren0 (talk) 16:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Correct, she is the presumptive vice-presidential nominee. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Info on Army son

On this site it states her son is set to deploy with an infantry brigade in september, but I'm in the Army and I looked at the public Army records and saw that her son is indeed infantry but he works out of the Wasilla recruiting station which tells me that he is not deploying and is actually working in a (opinion) protected job set fourth by mommy. It is not common for a Private First Class to work in a recruiting station and in fact you have to be at least a Specialist to be in the Corporal rectuiting program. I think this hits on her character because it tells me that it's okay for me or my children to fight in Iraq but not for her son! What do you think?

Source: Army Knowledge Online (People Search: formally army white pages) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wesxpresswmb (talk • contribs) 16:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Site is not publicly accessible without making an account. Lincoln F. Stern 16:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

link [54] "http://stage-v2.wtopnews.com/?nid=104&sid=1247586" no longer works. Can not find information about her son being deployed to Iraq. Lincoln F. Stern 16:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Back to the top of Army son, I can find no source that confirms or denies her son's deployment to Iraq. The source mentioned above does not apear to be open to the public. I see no reason to include the statement without a citation. At the very least the statement should be tagged as needing a citation. --Crunch (talk) 16:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Someone added a citation needed sticker. I added one as well for him being in the military (given link no longer works) Lincoln F. Stern 16:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Check the regulation on this sit about the qualification to be a recruiter http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/recruiter/Index.htm

and as for the info of army record you have to be a soldier or sponsered by a soldier to access it but this is exactly what it says

AKO IDAKO ID AKO ID track.palin ServiceService Service Army Account TypeAccount Type Account Type Active Army RankRank Rank PFC Army Basic BranchArmy Basic Branch Army Basic Branch 11 OrganizationOrganization Organization US ARMY RECRUITING Street AddressStreet Address Street Address 1590 E FINANCIAL DRIVE CityCity City WASILLA StateState State AK Zip CodeZip Code Zip Code 99654 PhonePhone Phone 907-373-5174 FaxFax Fax Emailtrack.palin@us.army.mil IM StatusIM Status IM Status Offline For more information regarding AKO accounts, account policy, and account verification, please consult the AKO Account Policy document. Wesxpresswmb (talk) 16:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Recruiters are not deployable and ther is no need for recruiters in a combat zone! Besides the fact that he is infantry on a special assignment as a recruiting station assistant and basically wasting the governments money spent to train him to do his job as infantry.Wesxpresswmb (talk) 16:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone visited the fact that he may be on TAD orders? That is very common in the military, he can just he on TAD orders for a month before going to Iraq. I know a few people in the Marines that did that. What I think is odd; he joined after Sept 11th, which was 7 years ago, correct? How is he still a PFC? That is an extremely low rank for someone one a second enlistment. I think that information must be in accurate. Chexmix53 (talk) 18:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I just re-read the bit about when he joined. it is appropriate for him to be a PFC with only a year in, and it is appropriate for him to be on TAD recruiters orders until he deploys. Chexmix53 (talk) 18:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, he reportedly joined on 11 September 2007 - last year - not 11 September 2001. Akiracee (talk) 19:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Reference item 74, http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/30/us/politics/29palin.html, redirects to a sign up page. This is for Palin's sons upcoming orders for Iraq. Can someone find a non-registration news site? Lincoln F. Stern 22:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Something else

Sarah Palin was NOT the first Alaska governor to be sworn in at some place other than Juneau. She was the first governor since statehood, I believe. But before putting that you should check the inaugurations in the 1960s. Alaska has had 2 other capitals in the past, plenty of governors were sworn in in Sitka. I know, I lived there, I didn't just look up something on the internet.65.2.29.233 (talk) 16:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Not a forum for general discussion of her. Kaisershatner (talk) 16:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Reread this comment, it's a suggested change to the article. Shii (tock) 16:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

campaign or family edits ???

Just wondering. The User Young Trigg has been a user just since yesterday and has only contributed by editing this article. On top of that, one edit is headlined in a rather familiar tone, quoting: - Sarah returned to office three days after giving birth -.

The edits are rather positive in tone, as well.

Someone who knew the pick was coming, prepping the article??? Or am I just too suspicious?

[[User talk:Name|Talk]] (talk) 16:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Probably nothing. There are plenty of Palin fans who have been advocating this pick for months. Kelly ^hi! 16:23, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Neither is it relevant. Talkpages are for improvements in the article, not for general forum-like discussion. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems relevant to me. Just don't think it's worthy of alteration. MonkeyPillow ^pop 16:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

None has ever run for president

"She will be the first politician from Alaska to be nominated for Vice-President; none has ever run for president." What about Mike Gravel? I'm changing this to "none has ever been nominated for President."

Nevermind, someone already beat me to erasing the line.

Eric Rosenfield (talk) 16:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the whole line about first person from Alaska ever to be nominated for VP. It seems trivial, given the number of election cycles since Alaska became a state. --Crunch (talk) 16:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Not only did Gravel run for president in 2008, he ran for vice-president at the 1972 Democratic convention (and lost to McGovern's pick). But to say Palin's the first Alaskan to be nominated on either major party ticket does seem significant; it has been almost 50 years. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:18, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed Section Regarding Husband

'Palin's husband, Todd, is a Yup'ik Alaskan native.' -this statement is highly suspect. Todd Palin is Caucasian from the continental US, and not an indigenous Alaskan, so he can not be considered an "Yupik Alaskan Native." Intranetusa (talk) 16:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The cite points to a book by someone named Kaylene Johnson. I haven't read the book, but the Amazon.com reviews are scathing. And the full text is not up, so we don't even know if it says that he is an Indian. If he indeed is an Indian, we will doubtless be reminded of this fact during the next 67 days from other sources. Timothy Horrigan (talk) 16:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

He is 1/8 Yup'ik.[2] His mother is 1/4. He's only an "indigenous Alaskan" because he was born there. To quote the Anchorage Daily News, "Palin was born in the western Alaska town of Dillingham to Jim Palin and Blanche Kallstrom, who is a quarter Yu'pik Eskimo." I'm going to fix the article accordingly. -- Atama^chat 16:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

article is being hacked !!! please fix photo !

Wayfarers43 (talk) 16:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC) this article is being hacked and should be blocked for the time being. Please fix the photo.

Agreed: "Before all this, she was a man"? CLearly vandalism. 207.237.198.152 (talk) 16:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Seconded

It's just some silly vandalisim. It's expected for now. It will cool of soon. Tenho Karite (talk) 16:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Been cleaned up and semi-protected now. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 16:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Please lock this page

Somebody has been vandalizing this page. And, as Biden's page is locked, it would make sense to lock this page. Thank you. 192.77.143.150 (talk) 16:40, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it would be a sensible move.--JayJasper (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

It's currently under semi-protection, so that anonymous and newly-registered editors can't make changes. That should help. -- Atama^chat 16:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Done. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 16:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I've unprotected it. Times like these are the most important to have anon editing enabled, as there is a lot to do and many anonymous readers will have valuable content to add. We can reverse vandalism very quickly, and block any persistent vandals.--ragesoss (talk) 18:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

"hot" governor???

" is the hot Governor of Alaska, and the 2008 Republican candidate for Vice President of the United States"

looks like vandalism and is probably going to go rampant. why isn't this article under some sort of protection?

also

isn't she the VP presumptive candidate until elected by the R. convention next week? 68.173.2.68 (talk) 16:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Been cleaned up and semi-protected. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 16:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

First Major Female VP Candidate

Could we have a link to Geraldine Ferraro where it says "second female Vice Presidential candidate", as it took me a long time to find out the identity of the first by myself.

quote with no context

In the article, "In a CNBC interview about her ongoing ethics investigation, Palin stated that she was unsure about what a Vice President does every day."

She actually stated that, "As for that VP talk all the time, I'll tell ya, I still can't answer that question till someone answers for me - what is it exactly that the VP does everyday?". This was in July, so if she accepted, chances are she has this squared away in her mind.

With no context, I don't know if including this at all even is unbias or useful. Emesee (talk) 16:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. That type of writing is weaselly at best. Removing is right, in lieu of expanding to a paragraph or section on the trajectory of her VP considerations. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 17:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Update. I tried to incorporate the material better, by connecting it to the other content concerning her (presumtive) nomination being a surprise, and sending the actual quote to the footnotes. I think it reads much better now. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 19:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

No one knows what a VP does every day. They really have few duties of any kind. Some are allowed to do important things. Others are allowed to go to funerals. --70.225.92.16 (talk) 02:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Palin's ethnic heritage?

Any sources regarding Governor Palin's ethnic heritage, i.e. is she of German, Norwegian, English, Irish, Swedish, or even Native American descent? Or some mix of European ethnicities? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.170.226.46 (talk) 16:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

She's obviously of the CumonIwannalaya tribe of indigenous Alaskan peoples with some heavy doses of MILF bloodlines. ;-) Lawyer2b (talk) 16:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

It appears from this family tree [3] (which doesn't really track her father) that she is of mostly Colonial American (i.e. English) ancestry, with some German ancestors a few generations back too. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 16:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, her last name does sound to be Swedish.

Norum (talk) 01:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Scandal?

Admittedly, I haven't done any outside research on the matter but the information in the "Commissioner Dismissal Scandal" section doesn't seem to reach the point of being a "scandal." I would describe it as a "controversy". I think scandal implies that *clearly* a wrong was committed. If the investigation turns up something that Palin did that was clearly wrong, then I think it should be called a "Scandal". How do newspapers in the area describe the matter? Lawyer2b (talk) 16:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree, and switched it. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that is should be "controversy" as it IS under Federal investigation. However it has been changed to "Public Safety Commissioner dismissal" (Aventari (talk) 20:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC))

They call it "Troopergate" and there are several sources that refer to it that way and even lampooned in cartoon editorials.

citation http://www.rogermaynard.com/images/p2008/brergov.gif

you will have to find the other news and Blog citations. But they are out there.

signed anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.151.81.223 (talk) 03:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

This is a quote from cnn.com about Sarah Palin

Palin made her name in part for backing tough ethical standards for politicians. During the first legislation session after her election, her administration passed a state ethics law overhaul.

Palin's term has not been without controversy. A legislative investigation is looking into allegations that Palin fired Alaska's public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan, because he refused to fire the governor's former brother-in-law, a state trooper.

Palin acknowledged that a call was made by a member of her staff to a trooper in which the staffer suggested he was speaking for the governor.

Palin has acknowledged that the call could be interpreted as pressure to fire state trooper Mike Wooten, who was locked in a child-custody battle with Palin's sister.

"I am truly disappointed and disturbed to learn that a member of this administration contacted the Department of Public Safety regarding Trooper Wooten," Governor Palin said. "At no time did I authorize any member of my staff to do so."

Palin suspended the staffer who made the call and the investigation is continuing.

Palin has been focused on energy and natural resource policy during her short stint in office, and is well-known for her support of drilling in the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge, a position opposed by Sen. McCain but supported by many grass-roots Republicans.

Source- CNN 08/29/08 url: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/29/a-look-at-palins-past/#more-15387

And what is your point with regard to this article? (By the way, please sign your posts). --Crunch (talk) 16:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Grammar Edit Unsuccessful

I was attempting to edit the following line to address the grammar:

Palin is strongly pro-life, a supporter of capital punishment,[28] Also has stated she likes hunting mooses for a past time, and promotes rifles as collector's items.

I was unable to find this text in the edit section or edit page. I am confused unless the page is somehow protected now. The area of the edit window where this text should be now says something about promoting creationism in schools. --Tralfaz (Ralraz, yech) (talk) 16:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Someone had removed it earlier; that's why you didn't see it. It's back now in fixed up form. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that section looks much better now. I was cringing at the use of Mooses. --Tralfaz (Ralraz, yech) (talk) 00:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Palin said creationism should be taught alongside evolution in public classrooms

Palin's answer to a question from the moderator in a televised debate: 'Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.'

See http://scienceblogs.com/afarensis/2006/10/27/intelligent_design_and_the_ala/

This should go into a Political positions of Sarah Palin article, which will no doubt materialize at some point. It's definitely notable to include for a governor, who presumably has influence over state educational guidelines. Wasted Time R (talk) 18:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The statement in the article on this right now is patently unfair and does not represent her position at all. The article currently says: " While running for Governor of Alaska, Palin supported the teaching of creationism alongside evolution in schools"

I followed the link to the article cited for support of this, and I found her saying this:

"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

In light of that, the sentence the article includes is simply false. She doesn't support teaching them alongside each other. She just doesn't think it's bad for a teacher to discuss both views and the reasons people support both if students happen to bring it up. That's not what people reading the article are going to get. It needs to be removed or changed to reflect her position more accurately. Parableman (talk) 20:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I tried to fix this so it more closely resembles what the referenced source actually says. I think the key is the words "taught" versus "debated"; as they have different connotations. The source includes both an original direct quote as well as a followup clarification quote, so by the source it is clear her intent is not to introduce creationism into the curriculum; which just saying she supports teaching it would imply. -- Dmeranda (talk) 21:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's better. I'm still not satisfied. Her clarification says that she thought it was ok to discuss it if it came up, i.e. if it was raised by students. She thinks that's fair game, and a lot of people think it's inappropriate for a science teacher even to get into the issue, because they think it's religion. The Dover case made that even the law in the Third Circuit. So it's not an uncontroversial position, but it seems misleading to say she advocated the teaching of it but then say it doesn't have to be part of the curriculum. That sounds as if she thinks it can be part of the curriculum but isn't going to oppose it. Her position clarification doesn't give me that impression. It sounds more like she thought it was ok to have it discussed if students raised the issue. Parableman (talk) 23:19, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

This 'debate' quote came after she had advocated for teaching creationism side by side with evolution (sorry I don't have the specific citation):

The volatile issue of teaching creation science in public schools popped up in the Alaska governor's race this week when Republican Sarah Palin said she thinks creationism should be taught alongside evolution in the state's public classrooms.

Palin was answering a question from the moderator near the conclusion of Wednesday night's televised debate on KAKM Channel 7 when she said, 'Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.104.128.56 (talk) 23:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

family

Why are we including non notable references to the family? NonvocalScream (talk) 17:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is her family not notable? Tenho Karite (talk) 17:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course this is relevant. It's all well sourced. Don't think families are relevant? See the page of every major public figure ever. This removal is borderline vandalism. Oren0 (talk) 17:16, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You really need to read this for a definition of vandalism. Do you know the contribution I make to this project, calling me a vandal. Heavens. NonvocalScream (talk) 17:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that you are a vandal. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and all that, but show me the page of any public figure in the remote notability range that Palin is now in that goes as far as your edit (no mention of spouse or children). Oren0 (talk) 17:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I mean to say, did they contribute to the notability of the subject? What main contributions have they made? I would posit that the mention is incidental, and privacy interests remain until such contribution can be made. NonvocalScream (talk) 17:16, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course they do. Did you watch her acceptance speech and the coverage thereof? I can't tell you how many times I've heard about her husband, or the terms "mother of five"/"hockey mom"/"son going to Iraq". Both the coverage of her son in Iraq and her son with Down's syndrome have been quite significant. Oren0 (talk) 17:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Oren0. A description of her family is appropriate. Family appearance is a key part of American politics and elections. She began her appearance today by introducing each of them in turn, and talked about her absent Army son at some length. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

But *how* did they contribute to her notability? NonvocalScream (talk) 17:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

"Contributes to the subject's notability" is not the criterion for inclusion of facts in an article. The criterion is attributability in reliable sources with proper weight. The family meets that bar. Serious question: do you believe that spouses should not be in articles such as Joe Biden and pages of other governors or senators? Oren0 (talk) 17:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I do, if the mention in incidental. This goes to the core of notability. Is it worth mentioning also, the aunts and uncles? NonvocalScream (talk) 17:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

From WP:N: "These notability guidelines only pertain to the encyclopedic suitability of topics for articles but do not directly limit the content of articles." When she mentions her five kids and her husband as the first thing she says on the national stage, their mention becomes more than incidental. If she does the same for aunts an uncles, they'll merit mention as well. Oren0 (talk) 17:37, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Almost the first thing Palin did in the Dayton rally announcing her as Vice Preisdential nominee was to introduce/name all of her children and her husband, so I think it's definitely notable. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 17:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Note to American wikipedia editors

When mentioning someone's birthplace and US states, make it clear that the place is in the United States. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 17:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Is that really necessary? Is it not safe to assume in an article about a US figure that their birth place is in the US unless indicted otherwise? – ukexpat (talk) 17:19, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

As a foreigner, you may also be unaware that the US Constitution requires presidential and VP candidates to be born in the United States. Furthermore, the WP pages for Idaho and Alaska are only a click away. Oren0 (talk) 17:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Except for John McCain, who was born in Panama. However, I think it is valid to presume that a candidate for one of those offices was born in the US unless otherwise stated.Alanmjohnson (talk) 18:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Governor Arnold_Schwarzenegger was not born in the US —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.5.54.199 (talk) 17:23, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

As such, his entry states his birth country. --oZ (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec)True, and it says so right on his page. But he's not a presidential candidate. And his constitutional ineligibility for president has been a matter of interest (people are trying to amend the constitution for him). Oren0 (talk) 17:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

And he is not a candidate for president or VP and can never be without Amendment. --RossF18 (talk) 17:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, the issue isnt simply about place of birth but in general. The first line now says that Palin is the governor of Alaska, how many ppl outside the US know what Alaska is ? WP has some rules and conventions, and they must be followed as far as possible. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 21:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I would say that most people outside of the US know what Alaska is, and more to the point where it is. I would not be surprised to learn that more people outside the US can find Alaska on a map than those who live in the US. If I were to put in an article about myself that I was born in Albany, New York I'm confident there's no confusion that it was in the US and not Albany, Australia. The addition of a state name is pretty clear that it's in the US. There are some US states that arent well known in the world, but Alaska (and California and New York) is not one of them, it's a major geographic entity as well. We arent talking Alabama! (no offence!). On a second note- the constitution does not bar people who were born outside the US from being president. It bars people who were not BORN US CITIZENS. That is why Gov. Schwarzwhateveryouspellit can not be president. People who are the children of US citizens but born on foreign soil are still eligible. On another note- wow, is this entire article a giant republican propaganda piece or what! NPOV anybody? 24.182.142.254 (talk) 03:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this entire article is a pawn of the vast conservative conspiracy. :P Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 03:40, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality

My status as a registered Democract completely aside, this article seems to be a of an NPOV concern to me. Are we really to believe that this poliitician has had no controversies in her career? Are we really to believe that she is as "squeaky clean" as the article in its current form might lead us to believe?

I've tagged the article as an NPOV concern and would like to have a discussion here, in hopes of reaching some form of consensus on the subject. Thanks. --Winger84 (talk) 16:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You haven't made any case for NPOV at all. There are numerous controversies mentioned. Please make your case before re-adding the tag. Kelly ^hi! 16:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Kelly here. Suspecting there should be controversies doesn't equal a NPOV dispute. - auburnpilot talk 16:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Unless you know of something "bad" to write about her that is sourced, I cannot see how the article is not neutral. It is factual, is it not? Just because an article is missing any "controversies" (which it's not... see the commissioner's dismissal section), does not mean that it is point-of-view-ed. Mahalo. --Ali'i 16:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The article reads like an advertisement taken straight from either her website or the Republican Party's website. Hence, neutrality can - and has - been raised as an issue. The tag can not be removed without a consensus being reached here. --Winger84 (talk) 16:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Which specific part is not neutral? --Ali'i 16:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe there are just a few more positive things than negative, sometime difficult thing to believe from a politician, but still possible. We shouln't try to exactly match the thigs that someone finds positive to the exact number someone else finds negative. Any issue + or - if properly cited could be added. Wikihonduras (talk)

If you find something then add it. Don't use innuendos to justify your political agenda. --user:jojhutton-- —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

This is in no way a "political agenda." In fact, I'm pleased that the Senator McCain has chosen her as his VP, because she appears to be a very strong candidate. My concern here is the fact that the article reads very much like an advertisement, rather than an encyclopedia article. --Winger84 (talk) 16:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Winger,

1. I don't perceive a non NPOV article at this point.

2. Of course, any notable controversies that can be sourced according to wikipedia guidelines should absolutely be included.

3. I think you should have more than simply your apparent "belief" that an article about any politician without controversies means that it is not NPOV to charge that an article is, in fact, not NPOV. Lawyer2b (talk) 16:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I'll compromise. I'll pull the NPOV tag, but I am going to replace it with the ADVERTISEMENT tag because if this article doesn't fail NPOV, it certainly meets ADVERTISEMENT. As I've said, there's no "political agenda" here. I'm very pleased, and very surprised, that Senator McCain selected Governor Palin as his VP choice. In fact, if it were someone other than McCain as the Presidential choice on the Republican ticket this year, this VP candidate might have been enough to make me vote Republican in November, rather than Democrat. --Winger84 (talk) 16:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the assertion that the article reads like an advertisement. (As of when I read it anyway, as it is changing constantly). Seemed fairly straight forward and factual to me. I certainly didn't see any "peacock terms." (But like I said it is in constant flux so it may or may not be "advertisement-like" in some versions.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The assertion that this is an advertisement is ridiculous. Before throwing around such claims please familiarize yourself with WP:SPAM, then explain how this article even comes close to what that guideline defines as promotion. -- Atama^chat 16:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is the neutrality tag back on the article? There is no consensus for that. Kelly ^hi! 17:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality of this Article

This article, in my opinion is not neutral and objective. This article seems relatively pro-Palin and also some parts of this article are very informally written. Psdubow (talk) 17:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Could someone explain exactly why there is an NPOV tag on the article? (Some specifics would be appreciated). Kelly ^hi! 17:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Apparently cause the media can't seem to find enough dirt to slant it in such a way to support the allegation that she's the devil. :P My god, a relatively clean politician. How refreshing! Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 18:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

While that last one was a little over the top, struck after seeing emoticon Baccyak4H (Yak!) 18:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC) I agree that but for the disjointedness that such an article in flux has at times like this, that neutrality is not really an issue. Even if it were, a tag may have its own issues as the article changes so rapidly. That said, I concur with not needing the tag, but don't strongly object keeping it until the editing slows down and it becomes easier to assess specific deficiencies. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 18:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd give it 24 hours before we worry too much about the NPOV. So little is known about Palin that the media are struggling to get much out about what makes her tick. Her bio is pretty vanilla on the surface based on the fact that... because she's a virtual unknown, few have ever done any digging. Hiberniantears (talk) 18:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

It's so laughable, look I'm the biggest liberal nut going so don't accuse me of an agenda. If there is something she's done worth mentioning we will add it. I hate this idea that everyone must have done something controversial in their lives. Some people are just boring and have no controversy, it happens. — Realist² 18:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

NPR has just run a story less than an hour ago about how often this page is being edited (in a pro-Palin way). I admittedly haven't done much Wikipedia editing, but hearing that bit on NPR makes me feel that this page should be flagged somehow, no? Keykrazy (talk) 00:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the lack of a negative tone within the article has more to do with the relatively short time that she has beein involved in politics. As additional sources of dirt evolve feel free to add to the article (assuming that the references are notable). I am not seeing any overt NPOV issues here, though that may change over the next few weeks.--Tralfaz (Ralraz, yech) (talk) 00:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Palin in photo with fur

The photo of Palin wearing a fur, why doesn't someone just come out and say that she's in support of hunting and trapping in Alaska. Why the allusion (sarcasm here). Either state it or get rid of it. I can't believe the partiality of Wiki's contributors. We don't show Barack Obama barechested in Hawaii while giving a press conference....75.73.4.221 (talk) 17:48, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

How do you know it's real fur? Kelly ^hi! 17:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Mmm. Dead fox heads...

(ec) I think it's the best photo we have of her speaking... In Alaska it is not unusual to wear fur, so I don't think there's any great fuss to be had here. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

She's also apparently an avid hunter, so I don't think the image is trying to say anything that isn't already said in text. - auburnpilot talk 17:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. If God didn't want us to hunt animals, why did he make them so delicious and their fur so wonderfully warm? Kelly ^hi! 17:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

given that the native alaskans have hunting as part of their culture/heritage AND part of their dailies lives for survival/sustenance, we cannot ignore that fact. plus, there is no indication that the article of clothing she is wearing is real fur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.176.93.18 (talk) 19:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Pro-contraception?

Last night, the article stated Palin is stongly pro-contraception. Now that part's been disappeared. Anyone know the facts?

I don't really know for sure, but I assume she has no problem with contraception since she is a Protestant Christian. Contraception is usually only an issue for Catholic Christians. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd remove reference to either stance unless we have a source clearly stating her position. Hiberniantears (talk) 18:23, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I found a source for her being pro-contraception, and added the reference back in. JayareIL (talk) 20:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I just dug through all four sources. At first it seemed as if contraception wasn't mentioned at all, but it does get a sliver of attention in a 2006 article in the Anchorage Daily News. I'd love to see more detail, but I imagine that'll crop up in the media soon enough. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Please eliminate the redundancy on her quote about VP

First, it is shown twice.

Second, both quotes are purporting to be quotes, yet are different. Until this is resolved by someone with a tape of the quotation, please remove it.

If we get the real quote, then it is fair to put it in, although I see comments of that nature not really biographical in nature, and unless it becomes a campaign issue, silly for this to have as a highlight for her bio.

This bio needs a careful hand. Her life is relatively short for being a Vice Presidential candidate, so there will be a lot of holes in her bio needing filling. I would love to point people to her wiki page, so lets try to get it as accurate as possible.

Example: I saw that the basketball team won the state championship. This needs to be confirmed, and added if true.

need a real quote?

[4]

Roughly at 2:50

217.95.47.180 (talk) 18:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Wedding date

In her speech today, August 29, 2008 -- http://www.breitbart.tv/html/163813.html -- she noted that it's her 20th wedding anniversary, so that would set her wedding date as August 29, 1988.Lawyervon (talk) 18:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, this would be a reliable citation. Kelly ^hi! 18:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Down's Syndrome

Down's Syndrome is a disorder not a "disease." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.61.217 (talk) 18:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's a "syndrome"  :-) As such, this should not be hard to fix acceptably to those of all labeling persuasions. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 18:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Mat Maid controversy topic

It seems that whoever wrote the Mat Maid controversy topic wrote it with a bias against Sarah Palin, as it made no mention of the fact that the reason she fired the Mat Maid board was simply because they refused to see her in any way after announcing they were shutting down the dairy. This was the reason they were fired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.10.61 (talk) 03:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the notability of this topic anyway. Governor fires some bureaucrats, film at eleven!0nullbinary0 (talk) 16:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Should there be more mention of her attractiveness and how that may affect the '08 election? Just a thought Aaya35 (talk) 17:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

That's beyond an ignorant and sexist comment. Obama is an attractive man, is there a paragraph about how attractive he is and how that will affect the election on his page?Chexmix53 (talk) 18:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but it is a fact of life that her appearance may play a role. Society is not now, and never will be, free of sexism, and women will always be judged for their looks more than men are. Palin's looks matter more than Obama's...sad fact of life but a fact nonetheless. However, Wikipedia is not a place for speculation or prediction. Such a mention has no place.Alanmjohnson (talk) 18:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Should this article be semi-protected?

There has been some back and forth with protection of this article since the VP announcement. I've just unprotected it, with the same rationale that we use for leaving Today's Featured Article unprotected. More anonymous contributions are constructive than destructive (glance through the history), and vandalism is reverted very, very quickly for articles in the spotlight like this one. Anonymous contributions that are prevented by semi-protection, however, can't be restored so easily. Unless there is a specific systematic attack on this article, as opposed to just a normal proportion of vandalism during a period of intense editing, I think it should remain unprotected.--ragesoss (talk) 19:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Does that logic apply to John McCain, Joe Biden, and Barack Obama—all of which are semi-protected? --Elliskev 19:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily, because those articles have reached states of relative stability. This article is still improving rapidly, and anonymous users are helping with that process.--ragesoss (talk) 19:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Really? Look at the edit history for the last 5–10 minutes. --Elliskev 19:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

There are too many bad edits by anonymous users at the moment to keep up with them all. While I appreciate that some anonymous users are helping improve the article, for the time being the article has to be protected. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I looked at every anonymous edit between 19:22 and Jredmond's protection at 19:28. I count 4 instances of vandalism, 7 contructive contributions (3 of which fixed anonymous vandalism), and 3 good faith but unconstructive edits. One of the fixes was very important; an anon changed an expired html link in a footnote (from a "news ticker") to the permanent address of the story. On balance, I think anon contributions are good. And as I said, we can always remove vandalism, but there's no way to recovered edits that were never made because of protection.--ragesoss (talk) 19:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Jredmond just restored semi-protection, arguing that vandalism outweighs positive contribution at the moment. I disagree; looking through the history, I notice that many of the anonymous contributions are in fact good faith edits (often with sources, even) that are simply out of place or repeat what is already mentioned elsewhere. I think semi-protection ought to be removed.--ragesoss (talk) 19:31, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

This article is the first non-news result for "Sarah Palin" on Google. Since Palin is a relative unknown, lots of people (including the Washington Post) are searching the Web for info and winding up here. While some anons were contributing positively — and we need to be sure to encourage them to register — the pace of revision made it impossible for the rest of us to keep up. The article is still changing very quickly, but we're no longer at ludicrous speed; I attribute that to semi-protection.

This article has also been under the eye of ST47's BLP watch bot since June, when a series of anonymous contributors kept adding poorly sourced defamatory accusations[5]. I haven't seen any of that stuff resurfacing today, but in that tide of contributions it's easy to miss things.

Finally, I don't see a very strong parallel between unprotecting this and unprotecting a daily featured article. For one thing, FAs are already stable, so while anons do improve the daily FA slightly, they don't build it from scratch like they would be doing here. For another, visitors stumble across FAs, but thanks to Google and news coverage they come here specifically for this article.

Now that I've said all that, if you want to lift the semi-protection before it expires (noon tomorrow UTC), then go right ahead. This article isn't worth a wheel war, and we can always semi-protect or fully protect again if we really need to. I just want the rest of us to be able to keep up with new revisions. - Jredmond (talk) 20:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

With hundreds, if not thousands, of editors watching this article, semi-protection seems a bit silly. --MZMcBride (talk) 21:18, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Lock Up the Errors

Wikipedia has again locked up an article except for changes by Wikipedia owners/elites. Do you see the two errors in the following two sentences:

"On August 29, 2008, Palin was announced as presumptive Republican presidential candidate John McCain's vice-presidential candidate, or running mate.[59] Palin's selection surprised many Republican officials who had speculated about other candidates,[60][61] such as Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty, former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney, United States Senator Joseph Lieberman, and former Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge, or did not know Palin personally."

They can't be edited in the normal fashion; they must await some Wikipedia owner/elite to notice how poorly written they are.

This article is not currently locked, and may be edited by anonymous users. In any case, it is changing very rapidly, and is undergoing hundreds of edits in a very short time; short-lived bad sections are inevitable until things settle down a bit.--ragesoss (talk) 19:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

height

How tall is she? There's a long tradition in political science of tracking the Heights of United States Presidents and presidential candidates, so I think it's relevant to the article. --M@rēino 19:19, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

What an article. — Realist² 19:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

One of those things that you never realize you've wanted to see until you see it. I love this encyclopedia. --Kizor 21:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

No controversy sections

No controversy sections. They are not good, disperse the information into the relevant section of article or don't include at all. — Realist² 19:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}}

{{editsemiprotected}} There appears to be some vandalism in this article. The first paragraph refers to Sarah Palin as the "retarded govenor" of Alaska. Can someone please fix this?

Already reverted. - auburnpilot talk 20:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

minor change (literally)

{{editsemiprotected}} \ Early Life \ says "Palin holds a bachelor's degree in journalism from the University of Idaho where she also minored in politics." The University of Idaho does not offer an minor in 'politics'. They do offer minors in 'political science'.

Already fixed. Thanks. - auburnpilot talk 20:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

IPA

That IPA can't be right. Shouldn't it be /peilɪn/, not /peɪlɪn/? The ɪ would be a southern way of pronouncing that dipthong, but not the general American way, I think. Homunq (talk) 19:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Vogue spread

{{editsemiprotected}} This needs to be reviewed. The supposed photo shoot for Vogue was a photoshopped image created and posted on the Internet. http://kodiakkonfidential.blogspot.com/2007/12/sarah-in-vogue.html

• This happened, do a simple Google search and you'll see the Vogue photoshoot is real. What you found is a blog entry and is not cited in the article. Instead, an appropriate cite to the Anchorage Daily News story on the Vogue shoot is included. --Friejose (talk) 20:16, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. My apologies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ffunky (talk • contribs) 20:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

This info was removed by "Calliopejen1" as a "trivial fact" but it hardly seems trivial to me that a sitting governor posed for a major magazine. Apparently I don't have permission to add it back in, or something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Csullo (talk • contribs) 02:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

ITN

After checking out more than 1000 edits, I still can't figure this out so anyone who helped on this article can take it:

On 29 August, 2008, In the news was updated with a news item that involved the article(s) Sarah Palin, which you created or substantially updated. If you know of another interesting news item involving a recently created or updated article, then please suggest it on the In the news candidates page.

--Spencer^T♦C 19:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Photo

Why are we not using her official Governor's portrait? I think we should.

Rick J. Evans 19:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

In general official Governor portraits are not Public Domain.--Appraiser (talk) 20:02, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Whoever is deleting/reducing hiring controversy, please stop.

There is no consensus on deleting the hiring controversy. The hiring controversy has the Alaskan media in an uproar. See "Palin has been under heavy criticism since firing former Department of Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan." http://www.ktva.com/commissionercontroversy/ci_10192665 If she has been under heavy criticism, that should be reflected. The rest of the article reads a bit like it's written by her staff, and this section will be understandably controversial for a while. But it should not be deleted.Jensiverson (talk) 19:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and she promoted a known sexual harassment aggressor, but mention of that was also scrubbed :: Palin replaced Monegan with Chuck Kopp, who had previously been removed from supervision of an employee he had allegedly sexually harassed. [53] Palin knew of Kopp's alleged sexual harassment before she appointed Kopp. [54]

I agree this needs to be discussed - but maybe not in such detail. RE: Kopp - I understand this has been mentioned in the Alaskan press, but don't slander this man needlessly. He was found innocent of the allegation. Thus the above comment isn't helpful. It would have been standard practice to remove Kopp from supervising the complainant during the investigation. But the investigation found him innocent. What's the controversy? 20:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The Kopp part continues to grow. The language of the current three sentences is very unfortunate. It intends for the reader to draw a conclusion about Mr. Kopp (and the Governor) that is not supported by facts. There is nothing illegal or unethical or notable about appointing someone who was cleared of a harassment allegation to the position of Public Safety Commissioner. Akiracee (talk) 20:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Homunq made some changes that I think are an improvement - cheers. Akiracee (talk) 20:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Now I'm confused about this Kopp guy. Has he already been fired (served 11 days)? Akiracee (talk) 21:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Palin know Kopp had allegedly sexually harassed an employee. See http://www.ktuu.com/global/story.asp?s=8712164 "Before appointing him, Palin said she was aware of the prior complaint against Kopp." Kopp was reprimanded. http://community.adn.com/adn/node/127679 I don't think these are controversial points. If editing is necessary, that's fine, I don't want any misimpression, but I don't see the controversy with those two points.Jensiverson (talk) 21:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

No, the sources says she knew he had been cleared of any wrongdoing. Another source says she didn't know at all.   user:j    (aka justen)   21:48, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I assume you're refering to http://community.adn.com/adn/node/127679 which says she didn't know about the reprimand. It shouldn't read that she says she knew, yes, but she definitely knew that there had been an alleged sexual harassment. He has not, according to the published news, been cleared of all wrongdoing as I understand it, (an affirmative step beyond finding the allegation had not been substantiated) because he was reprimanded, and he stepped down. "Kopp came under increasing scrutiny from the governor after he acknowledged this week that a 2005 sexual harassment complaint while he was chief of Kenai Police resulted in a letter of reprimand from the city." http://www.adn.com/news/politics/story/475539.html These are allegations, and should always have "alleged" in front of it. But this should be in there. It's a pretty obvious, public controversy. The person who alleged the harassment hasn't backed down. Jensiverson (talk) 22:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

How about this or something like it: Palin replaced Monegan with Chuck Kopp.Palin knew that Kopp had allegedly sexually harassed an employee, but thought the claims had not been further substantiated and did not know that he had been removed from supervision while he was investigated and received a letter of reprimand.

or more accurately:

Palin replaced Monegan with Chuck Kopp.Palin knew that Kopp had allegedly sexually harassed an employee, but thought the claims had not been further substantiated and did not know that he had been removed from supervision of the employee while he was investigated and received a letter of reprimand.

Please see the similar discussion at the bottom of this talk page. And the source ([6]) does not back up the assertion that Palin herself knew that Kopp had allegedly sexually harassed an employee. Happyme22 (talk) 22:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this fact is in question: Palin know Kopp had allegedly sexually harassed an employee. See http://www.ktuu.com/global/story.asp?s=8712164 "Before appointing him, Palin said she was aware of the prior complaint against Kopp." I'm not sure how much clearer it can get. Perhaps easy to miss amidst massive editing, but it's there.Jensiverson (talk) 22:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

... I just added a separate article for the hiring controversy. That does NOT mean I think the section here should shrink, just that it should not grow by much. Homunq (talk) 23:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Slate reports draft Palin movement lead to her pick

Here is an interesting Slate article [7] about the Palin pick. Maybe some of this can be incorporated into the VP selection area. Remember (talk) 19:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Another important neutrality point

This article states that Palin is "pro-life." Pro-life is NOT a neutral term. This is similar to saying she is Anti-choice (some people would say being against the right to choose is anti-life). The correct designation would be that she is "Anti-abortion."

No, that would be POV. Nobody is actually 'pro-abortion'. One is 'pro-life' or 'pro-choice'. If you prefer, we could contrast 'pro government decision' vs. 'pro individual conscience'. Flatterworld (talk) 19:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a standing consensus to use the terms preferred by each side of the abortion issue. It's pro-life and pro-choice. --Elliskev 19:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Aye, deviating from generally accepted terminology in an environment as volatile as this would cause more trouble than it might solve. --Kizo

r 21:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd think the correct terminology would be "pro-choice" and "anti-choice". 12.40.5.69 (talk) 23:17, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Only if you are Pro-Choice. I believe that the decision on terminology is intended to represent the position as the person would want to be portrayed, not as their opposition wants them to be portrayed. As such, using the terms Pro-Choice and Pro-Live is a courtesy afforded on the individual. Make sense?--Tralfaz (Ralraz, yech) (talk) 00:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The widely accepted and supported terms in published North American political discussion are pro life and pro choice and there are reasons for this.[8] Gwen Gale (talk) 01:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Abortion and capital punishment

Well-sourced statements on her positions with respect to these social issues were once in the article, but have disappeared. Srnec (talk) 19:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't remember there being anything more about her stance on abortion in the article since I first looked at it this morning. The article is currently in a constant state of flux and things have been going missing, readded and restructured like mad. I think a valid suggestion at this time is to not panic and wait until the article calms down a bit and see if they come back. If they were well-sourced, I'd imagine there won't be a problem restoring them. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 19:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Public Safety Commissioner dismissal

Undue Weight. Too much info. Too much is written on something that has only affected a small period of her life. — Realist² 19:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

What are you kidding? she is CURRENTLY under investigation for ABUSE OF POWER, which is an impeachable offense Scottf43 (talk) 19:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Niggling details should go in Alaska Public Safety Commissioner dismissal controversy; the main points should stay here. Homunq (talk) 23:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Animal rights seems off

I think the section of Animal Rights Controversies seems a little biased; not neutral at all. it seems like it was done in hurry as well, having too many formatting errors and layout is not too well

most importantly, here are no citations to back up what it is claiming. Without such, it looks more like someone's opinion.

And it also got removed right away, thankfully, considering it wasn't objective in the slightest. - Cair

"what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?"

This quote is unquestionably relevant. Please stop pushing it into footnotes only. I am 1 away from 3RR so I cannot continue to do so myself. Homunq (talk) 19:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

If this quote is to be included (which I have no problem with), the WHOLE quote should be give to show proper context. This was done in some previous versions, but has since been editing out (I don't know why.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it is because others edited it out, and I put back what I felt was the most relevant portion. I think that the current compromise is OK - basically, a more-complete quote, but edited down so that it is not given the undue prominence of a blockquote. Homunq (talk) 20:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

My vote: I don't think it is "unquestionably relevant." It appears it was a throw away sentence, not an opinion or policy position. Akiracee (talk) 20:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

(Comment from footnote pusher) I put the whole quote in the footnotes for editorial spacing concerns (the length of the quote itself seems out of proportion to the content it's trying to support). The actual wording of her comments regarding the VPship can be tweaked, including well chosen actual snippets. I would want to minimize this, though, as scare quotes, or even the appearance thereof, make for a poor article. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 20:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. It's been reverted back to a blockquote. I won't edit war, but I do feel this needs revisiting at some point. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 20:24, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I would be fine with something like "spoke dismissively about the importance of the office" which gives the flavor of the quote, with the quote in a footnote, but the first footnote-only version ("admitted she had not been groomed") was far from that. Homunq (talk) 20:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC) ps. I think that scare quotes on individual words are silly (just use indirect quotation), but that including quoted phrases in a sentence is meaningful. It isn't just a matter of distancing the editorial voice from the sentiments, it is a way to keep conciseness and flow while giving the most authentic feel for the original tone.

I give up. I was just trying to put in a compromise, and failed as 3 successive edit conflicts showed me 3 different (conflicting) interim versions of the relevant section. I definitely vote for some "spoke dismissively" type paraphrase, but I'll let the rest of Wikipedia hash it. Homunq (talk) 22:16, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the quote is relevant. She's up for the VP job. The fact that she didn't know that the VP presides over the Senate is worth considering, even if she was only joking about it. I say put in the full quote and its context. 24.187.189.117 (talk) 01:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The Truth is... SHE SMOKED WEED!

She smoked weed. it was likely that she was smoking weed while she was holding public office. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/29/politics/politico/thecrypt/main4397109.shtml

in spite of the fact that several "controversial" TRUE FACTS about this woman were present on her Wikipedia page this morning, they have suddenly disappeared and now the page is locked. i guess someone is hiding a lot of skeletons . I can understand scrubbing untrue statements from Wiki sites, but when the truth is posted, with references, it should not be deleted. Whoever is scrubbing her image and hiding her skeletons should be ashamed of themselves. Scottf43 (talk) 19:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

If you're really concerned about articles being scrubbed clean of skeletons try looking at the Obama page sometime. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:03, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

That source does not indicate that "it was likely that she was smoking weed while she was holding public office." You're about one more violation of the biographies of living persons policy away from being blocked. If her prior use of marijuana is widely covered in the mainstream press, then it will likely end up with at least a brief mention here. In the meantime, do you have any other interest in this article or the encyclopedia besides featuring this tidbit as prominently as possible? MastCell ^Talk 20:07, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I love it when people say things like: "True Facts". It is funny because a 'fact' is 'true' by definition. This demonstrates the lack of thought behind the words.--An-Alteran

I'd just like to point out (with no particular agenda or specific changes that I'm promoting) that there's a danger in restricting this articles sources to items "widely covered in the mainstream press." Palin wasn't widely covered in the mainstream press until her name came up as a potential VP pick, and even then she was widely discounted until today. As of today, what the press chooses to report on will begin to erode the thin details that were previously available and if that's Wikipedia's focus, then it will be a potentially different perspective than that which was available a few months ago. That transition itself is notable. I'm not advocating giving equal weight to fringe publications, but if a lesser-known media outlet in Alaska is our only source for some detail, that might not be sufficient reason to exclude its mention. -65.116.132.250 (talk) 21:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I would like to point out another source (from the day before yesterday's version of the article). http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/governor06/story/8049298p-7942233c.html It will be interesting to see if this becomes a major issue considering Obama's admitted drug use --D3matt (talk) 00:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Please keep this article neutral....hawks are trying to descend

Look at all the hatemongers flooding this page to jack this article up full of "controversey"....we all knew this would happen. WIkipedians posing as "NPOV" when in reality they want to spice up the article full of a gigantic "controversey" section...you want this article to have a big "controversey section" don't you? Admit it, you think it "needs" a gigantic section full of macacas. Cmon you wiki libs. I estimate that within 72 hours half this article will be devoted to "controversey"...I can only hope moderators will do the right thing and protect it from the hawks that insert controversey in the name of NPOV

"wiki libs"? c'mon. Oh, and sign your posts (Aventari (talk) 20:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC))

I agree-no big controversy section. I also agree with those saying that the separate sections on controversial issues should not be minimized. She is going to be a major figure. She could be President of the United States shortly. She is four months from being a heartbeat away if Senator McCain is elected. She has a limited public record, what there is worth a full examination. So, to the best we can, neutral, and without shying from what has been publicly reported by reputable sources, good or bad.Jensiverson (talk) 20:23, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was

put this in?

I can't add this to the article...

Todd Mitchell Palin is a 42 year old oil field production manager in Alaska and First Gentleman of Alaska. His wife is Sarah Palin, Governor of Alaska and Vice Presidential candidate for the November 2008 election representing the Republican Party.

I linked it, the whole article can't go in though.Jensiverson (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Early life and career

He was born in Dillingham, Alaska to Blanche and Jim Palin. His grandmother Helena Andree </ref> is Yup'ik (indigenous peoples of Alaska). In 1988, he married Sarah Pallin who were high school sweethearts.

For 18 years he was a blue collar employee in the North Slope oil fields of Alaska working for BP and now is a production supervisor.

Champion snowmobile racer

In 2008, while defending the Iron Dog Championship, he was injured when he was thrown 70 feet from his machine. This race is a snowmobile race which traces the path of the Iditarod race with an extra journey of several hundred miles to Fairbanks added. He first competed in the race in 1993 and has been the champion four times. His racing co-pilot is Scott Davis. He has previously raced with Dusty Van Meter in the race and were co-champions in 2000 and 2002.

Family life

The Palins have five children. Track is in the U.S. Army and scheduled for overseas deployment. They have three daughters, Bristol, Willow, and Piper. Mr. Palin fishes and is a pilot holding a Airplane Single Engine Land license.

References

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Date linking

Date links

I don't want it to appear as if I'm edit-warring over dates, but... Date links are deprecated per WP:MOSNUM. The dates don't have any values as wikilinks, they hide inconsistencies from registered users with date preference settings, and provide no benefit to 99% of our readers. Before I delink them (again), I'd like to hear comments. If the consensus is to ignore MOSNUM, I'll live with it. --Elliskev 18:19, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Additionally The McCain article does not use date links. !--NB—THE DATES IN THIS ARTICLE ARE NON-AUTOFORMATTED -- is included at the top of the edit page. --Elliskev 18:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

People are likely just unaware of the standard change and are acting in good faith. Personally, I'd just let it sit until the editing dies down since it is rather trivial (and if you really want to fix dates, the other 99% of wiki articles are still wrong ;)).--ThaddeusB (talk) 18:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

That's reasonable. --Elliskev 18:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Again

I've delinked the dates twice; will whomever is linking the dates here please read WP:MOS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

For those who aren't aware, this was recently changed. Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers), linking dates has been deprecated. - auburnpilot talk 20:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

new information to add?

her popularity in Alaska has soared as high as 83% as she has gone on to sack political appointees with close ties to industry lobbyists, shelved pork projects by fellow Republicans

from http://www.wsj.com/article/SB121993453813079803.html?mod=psp_mostpop

-- Gov. Palin denies that, saying she removed the commissioner she appointed 18 months ago because she wants "a new direction," and offered him a job as liquor board director which he turned down.

from http://www.wsj.com/article/SB121993453813079803.html?mod=psp_mostpop I don't know if the liquot board director pays well so someone should look into this.

--- She appears, for example, to have forced Alaska's dominant oil producers, ConocoPhillips and BP PLC, to finally get serious about a natural-gas pipeline -- without making any tax or royalty concessions. "People see her as the symbol of purity in an atmosphere of corruption," says Anchorage pollster Marc Hellenthal. "She's more like Saint Sarah."

from http://www.wsj.com/article/SB122002615833483595.html?mod=Politics-and-Policy Radiomango (talk) 21:12, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

i see the category 'American Pentecostals' - nowhere in the article do i see a reference to the denomination to which she adheres or to any religious movement or philosophy with a name that she supports - can someone add 'she belongs to xyz Church' . . . or whatever? does someone know? - i am curious - not finding the answer easily on the 'Net - b betswiki (talk) 21:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Faster than a bullet

I love wikipedia because it not only conveys subject information but can give a glimpse of the historical conjencture. Until yesterday, who had heard of her? On 22th August, a week ago, there were absolutely no edits to this article, not even vandalism!! :))) 82.230.24.185 (talk) 21:33, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Cheers, wikipedia is a good place, please remember that talk pages are really for discussing improvemts to the article only. Welcome to wiki though. — Realist² 21:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a bureaucratic dystopia, where objective truth is subject to revocation upon "consensus". 75.168.211.99 (talk) 01:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia does have sundry kinds of systemic bias, but reliable sources can help. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:04, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

"Systemic bias" and constant shifting of fact renders Wikipedia unusable. 75.168.211.99 (talk) 01:11, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Whilst reading political articles and other high traffic, controversial topics, yes, the reader should be wary but this is true for most published information anywhere. I would also say many Wikipedia readers are smarter than some editors think. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:16, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Protect page - Controversy investigation info is being removed

Earlier today there was info in this piece about the ongoing investigation of Palin's office for abuse of power. It is now dilluted and almost gone.

Here are the facts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPTMcs8wpHc

from a reputable local network news broadcast.

PLEASE LOCK THE PAGE and correct the cleanup / hack. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davequ (talk • contribs) 21:51, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

We have to be careful about giving too much undue weight to that matter, as it is only a small portion of Palin's life and career. A lengthy section detailing an intricate investigation and what she and many others may or may not have done is not appropirate here (please read WP:WEIGHT). A mention of it and some facts are okay, however. Happyme22 (talk) 21:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I do not remember there being a considerable amount of additional space given to this investigation, the current three paragraphs were shortly duplicated by a smaller subheading but that material was redundant. I wonder if there is a grass roots movement to have this repeated, earlier someone else posted similar language. Maybe a copypasta from Above? Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 21:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I, as one of the people who was editing the longer version, think that the summary is pretty good, or at least was when it first arrived. Well done, Happyme. Homunq (talk) 22:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks :) --Happyme22 (talk) 22:18, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

There was a good amount of sourced material that was deleted without any discussion. This has been a major focus of the news during a substantial period of her short term as governor. It deserves a reasonably thorough treatment unless it is broken out as a separate article. How about, as suggested above:

Palin replaced Monegan with Chuck Kopp.Palin knew that Kopp had allegedly sexually harassed an employee, but thought the claims had not been further substantiated and did not know that he had been removed from supervision of the employee while he was investigated and received a letter of reprimand.Jensiverson (talk) 22:34, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I personally support breakout as a separate article: Alaska Public Safety Commissioner dismissal controversy. I like your passage, Jensiversion, but there is no way to give enough details on this issue to satisfy the truly curious without weighing down this article as it stands. Jensiversion, I urge you to be bold and start such an article add your edits there. Homunq (talk) 22:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

To clarify: of course the current summary section would stay here. But if we start digging into Kopp, we have to dig into Bailey and the nephew and all the rest. That should happen, yes, but in a separate article. Homunq (talk) 22:58, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Inside VP Knowledge

I do not understand Elliskev's comment. I can put a link to the actual history page where lobbynoise identified McCain's running mate before McCain announced it. I feel it is important that this information made it out in Wikipedia, because it seems that no media outlet was able to uncover it. --Bertrc (talk) 22:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Original research aside, we have no way of knowing whether lobbynoise had special knowledge or was just trying to prank people. cf. Chris Benoit; cf. also the pranksters who sent false VP reports to the press ahead of Obama's announcement of Joe Biden. - Jredmond (talk) 22:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

It is original research and unverifiable claims. It does not belong. Happyme22 (talk) 22:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Wasted Time R's Tim Pawlenty links convinced me that many wikipedians had been posting guesses of the VP nomination as fact, but (for future reference) how was my addition original research? I was referencing something that is clearly documented in the Wikipedia History pages: posting . . . Or were you complaining that Lobbynoise had posted was original research? --Bertrc (talk) 03:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors had even more inside knowledge about McCain picking Tim Pawlenty for veep: this edit and this edit and this edit and this edit and this edit and this edit and this edit and so on. And also this edit told us that McCain had picked Mitt Romney for veep. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The Mitt Romney link doesn't quite equate, (it states that rumors had been floating around, not that Mitt had been chosen) but the Tim Pawlenty links make your case. --Bertrc (talk) 03:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Just for future reference, a note on my talk might have helped. I just kind of stumbled across this. Anyway, I can't add anything to what's in the answers above. --Elliskev 00:39, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Was Palin really an opponent of the "Bridge to Nowhere"?

From the Anchorage Daily News on October 22, 2006 (Q and A while running for Governor):

5. Would you continue state funding for the proposed Knik Arm and Gravina Island bridges?

Palin: Yes. I would like to see Alaska's infrastructure projects built sooner rather than later. The window is now--while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist.

September 19, 2007, Palin's statement while redirecting funds away from the bridge

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20908207/

"Ketchikan desires a better way to reach the airport, but the $398 million bridge is not the answer. Despite the work of our congressional delegation, we are about $329 million short of full funding for the bridge project, and it's clear that Congress has little interest in spending any more money on a bridge between Ketchikan and Gravina Island. Much of the public's attitude toward Alaska bridges is based on inaccurate portrayals of the projects here. But we need to focus on what we can do, rather than fight over what has happened."

I put the above info into the article (just half a sentence, though who knows how long it will last there). Homunq (talk) 22:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Photo

I think we should upload a better, and more formal photo for Gov. Palin. The photo on the State of Alaska's page seems more appropriate. This picture is available in higher resolution on various sites like here. Thoughts? - WilsonjrWikipedia (talk) 22:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

What's the license on the official photo? - Jredmond (talk) 22:26, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The license is critical - while U.S. federal government photos are in the public domain, that isn't true of most (all?) state governments, which normally use a standard copyright. For example, this page of an agency of the Alaska government says "the unauthorized copying and posting of material contained within a department publication or web page to a non-[departmental] hard publication, web page or other electronic publication constitutes copyright infringement". So I'd guess that Palin's official photo is not note: added the prior word - my error in the initial posting - JB in the public domain at all. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 22:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

What he said. The current photo, on the other hand, is GFDL, which means that it can be reused right alongside the article text. - Jredmond (talk) 22:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

John Broughton, would you please clarify? This sentence of yours does not seem to be gramatically correct: "So I'd guess that Palin's official photo is in the public domain at all." Thanks.Ferrylodge (talk) 22:48, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Typing way too fast (and not carefully reading) - my error. I've fixed it; thanks for checking with me. Not in the public domain. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 23:08, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Foreign policy/relations?

The Kuwait photo suggests that there would be at least a paragraph to write on this topic, and such a section would be welcome. Homunq (talk) 22:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really much to write about. She visited the troops (Alaska National Guards Battallion) in Kuwait. Once. That's about everything i know off in terms of "foreign policy". It might even be better looking for Palin to leave the photo and not clarify the lack of foreign policy content... 217.95.47.180 (talk) 23:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Marathon time and result: post under Family and personal life

Sarah Palin has competed in 10K and marathon running events. On July 30, 2005, she finished sixth among women in the Anchorage "Run/Walk for the Whisper" (benefiting the fight against Ovarian Cancer) with a time of 49:01. On August 21, 2005, she finished "Humpy's Marathon" in Anchorage, Alaska with a time of 3:59:36. --Mayamolly (talk) 22:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Quality of sources

Can someone come up with better sources than LifeNews.com and TPMCafe for Palin's pro-life stance? I don't doubt the position, mind you, but neither of those are acceptable as reliable sources. Tvoz/talk 23:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Supports Parts of Obama's energy Plan??

That claim references a Huffington Post article that makes the claim, and two newspaper articles that make no mention of Obama's plan. The Huffington Post links to a page with other links and no mention of Obama directly. Right now it's overloaded and mostly not responding, so I can't check all the links. I suspect the most you can say is some things she has supported/done (gas pipeline, giving energy rebates) are similar to things Obama supports. As it's written, it sounds like she made a statement about Obama's plan saying, "I support these measures in his plan," or something to that effect. Unless that's true, the claim should be removed or drastically reworded. 209.159.37.194 (talk) 00:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

It currently reads "he has supported aspects of Democratic nominee Barack Obama's energy plan related to encouraging the further use of natural gas but has opposed his plan to raise taxes such as the windfall profit tax." Is that sufficiently NPOV for you. Seems OK to me, but I change if you have an alternative you'd like to see (Note; I didn't write the current or any previous version) --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Other candidates did not feel manipulated, nor did they claim to be used as decoys.

This line is false and the citation provided does not verify any of the claims made.

"Palin's selection surprised many Republican officials, several of whom had speculated about other candidates[66][67] such as Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty, former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney, United States Senator Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut, and former Pennsylvania Governor Tom Ridge.[68] Mitt Romney and Tim Pawlenty, previously considered the frontrunners for the position, reportedly 'feel manipulated' over the surprise announcement for being 'used as decoys.' [69]"

Citations 68 and 69 say nothing about "reportedly 'feel manipulated' over the surprise announcement for being 'used as decoys.'" Someone should correct this. As a new user I do not have permission to make the adjustments.

Taskr36 (talk) 23:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

This has been fixed (as it now is sourced by a relevant article.) Not sure its relevant, but it is at least accurate. --ThaddeusB (talk) 00:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

husband and BP

This page says her husband WORKS for bp, his page says he resigned in 2007. Rescuechick 23:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Which is true? --Elliskev 00:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Should 'Palin' redirect here or to the disambiguation page?

I was surprised when I typed in Palin and wikipedia sent me straight here. I would think Michael Palin is important enough, especially since Sarah Palin was unknown to most people in the US until about 12 hours ago.

Up until 12 hours ago, you would have been correct. But for the foreseeable future this redirect seems appropriate. There's a notice at the top of this article pointing people to the disambiguation page. I, of course, like Michael Palin (especially The Life of Brian and A Fish Called Wanda), but for now the redirect seems okay.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Ferrylodge don't write stuff like that. I might think you actually have a sense of humor!!!!OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Perish the thought, Orange One.  :)Ferrylodge (talk) 00:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Mmmmmmmm. I'm a Republican, but I'm not so sure that Palin should be a full redirect here. It really ought to be a disambig. It's not like an extra click is gonna hurt anyone. --Elliskev 00:35, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Check out McCain, Obama, and Biden. The point is, the vast, vast majority of people typing in "Palin" right now are looking for this article.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:37, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

True. Just presenting an alternate POV. I assume we'll eventually revert to a disambig? Even after she's the VP? --Elliskev 00:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, What would McCain, Obama, and Biden dismabig to? 'Palin' is different in that Michael Palin is a likely candidate for a search. I go back to my assertion that it should be a disambiguation page. Again, it's only one more click. --Elliskev 01:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't follow. They would disambig to McCain_(disambiguation), Obama_(disambiguation), and Biden_(disambiguation).Ferrylodge (talk) 03:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I say redirect to the disambig page. If she loses, Michael Palin will be much more remembered 25 years from now. And think of our non-U.S. readers. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If you type "palin" in the search box (which is what most users will do, not put it on the URL line), you get Michael Palin and Sarah Palin as the first two hits. So everybody will find what they are looking for. To redirect Palin to here is to impose a too U.S.-centric, recentism-centric perspective on things. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If she loses, then I'll fully support redirecting to the disambig page. Not quite yet, though. Our anglophile readers will just have to suffer for the time being, IMHO.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If she loses, it makes sense to direct "Palin" to the disambig page. Until and unless she does, it makes most sense for "Palin" to direct here. Even among non-US users the current US VP nominee is likely to be of significant interest. Rlendog (talk) 00:50, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Support disambig if she loses. Hobartimus (talk) 00:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Please continue discussion at Talk:Palin (disambiguation) Nil Einne (talk) 02:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Busted

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/29/AR2008082902691.html?hpid%3Dtopnews&sub=AR

This is just dumb. Here name was already ~ #2-3 most speculated about by last night. This speculation is likely what led to the edits, not McCain/Palin aides updating in advance of the announcement.--ThaddeusB (talk) 00:57, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

They don't know what they're talking about, at least relative to the McCain page. The spike at 5 pm yesterday was due to me and Ferrylodge going around on the Naval Academy record and Ferrylodge and someone else going around on which way an image should point, neither of which had anything to do with veep. The only veep edit was this one accouncing that Hillary was the pick. I did do a bunch of editing to the Biden article a few days before he was named, on a guess that it would be him, no inside knowledge whatsoever. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:04, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the edit history from the day before she was announced, a massive overhaul was done on the article in the morning and afternoon, by one account, Young Trigg, which was apparently created just to edit this article. I think it's pretty clear that this was done by Palin's or McCain's staff -- if it was a Wikipedian who just wanted to improve the article, why would they create a sock puppet for it? I don't think there's actually anything wrong with this, since the edits appear to be of an acceptable standard of quality, but far from being dumb, it's fairly clear that this is what happened. Politicians do know about Wikipedia. 201.236.144.99 (talk) 01:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Miss Marple. --Elliskev 01:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, what about me? Don't I get any credit for the massive overhaul?Ferrylodge (talk) 01:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, of course you do. 201.236.144.99 (talk) 02:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, just for the record, I had no idea Palin would be the pick. I assumed that the recent controversy over the firing of Walt Monegan would make her radioactive, either fairly or unfairly. That's why I started overhauling and expanding that section of this article a couple days ago, before Young_Trigg ever showed up. I wanted to figure out if this was a real scandal, or just an insignificant tempest, that was shaping the course of history. Then Young-Trigg showed up just as I was getting ready to hit the sack. Bleary-eyed, I worked with Young-Trigg to substantially upgrade several sections of the article. I have no connection to any political campaign. I did donate to McCain, and will very probably vote for him, but I never met him (saw him in person once in Connecticut but didn't shake hands or get autograph). His staff has never contacted me, nor has Palin's nor the RNC, except to the extent that they contact everyone who they think they can squueze for money. I hope that addresses the matter. I'm just a hopeless Wikipedia addict and political junkie, and none too proud of it. Cheers.Ferrylodge (talk) 02:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you get no attention for being a normal editor. :( I'm just piqued because of how much expertise Young Trigg had on a new account. --\/\/slack (talk) 02:38, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

NPR reports on the gush of flattering edits by User:Young_Trigg

Trigg is a variant spelling of the name of her four month old son. National Public Radio report (link to audio). Hurmata (talk) 03:41, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

POV/OR in "Bridge to Nowhere"

Could someone remove the speculation about Governor Palin's reason for cancelling the bridge project? The quote doesn't support the premise that she cancelled the project because the federal government wouldn't pay for all of it. Celestra (talk) 01:05, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Never mind...that was edit number ten. ;-) Celestra (talk) 01:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Houses Added to Ticket

Is the quote "MSNBC added the quote "How many houses will Sarah Palin add to the Republican ticket?" as "breaking news" when Sarah Palin was nominated. The Center for Public Integrity reported that Palin owned three houses (one residential and two recreational) according to her 2007 financial disclosure form.[79]" appropriate for this article? It seems to me to be irrelevant to a biography page and just a snarky political attack point. GatorOne (talk) 01:12, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this is rather pointless and should likely be left off. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --Elliskev 01:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed it for now, if some people really think it should be added back ok. GatorOne (talk) 01:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If it's restored, maybe we should add all the very recent MSNBC bias discussion? For contextual purposes. --Elliskev 01:28, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's not relevant to her biography unless she or others make it a controversy that embroils or it appears to strongly affect her. If anything it should be on MSNBC's page if their editorializing during a hard news article becomes a controversy rather then on her biography page. Veriss (talk) 01:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Relevance aside, how is this an "attack point?" No matter who McCain had picked it would have added some number of houses to the Republican ticket. She brings the average down to 5.5, how does that hurt the ticket? --Vaughan Pratt (talk) 02:52, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Moose hunting

Why does it state that she would wake at 3:00 am to hunt moose? Shouldn't this be cited or removed?

The citation covers multiple sentences in the paragraph. It shows how dedicated she is to outdoor activities so is therefore relevant. Entire Washington Post articles have been written about Bush landscaping his ranch. Veriss (talk) 01:46, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Animal Issues?

082908

Why is there nothing listed about Palin's basic massacre of indigenous wildlife in Alaska? To the point of putting bounties on the heads of wolves?

Please provide your suggested material with a source to back it up. --Elliskev 01:25, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Note: Blogs and activist websites are generally not suitable citations for biographies of living persons. See Wikipedia:Verifiability Veriss (talk) 02:21, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

degree?

Sarah Palin, if elected, would be the first VP in over forty years who does not have an advanced degree.

FORTY years?!! --Elliskev 01:44, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Even on the talk page, assertions like this should have a source. As I recall, Ronald Reagan had but a 4 year college degree.[9] Gwen Gale (talk) 01:48, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Who cares? Let the voters decide. We're not investigative reporters. Veriss (talk) 01:48, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I was talking about verifiability of content in a helpful encyclopedia article. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:50, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Gwen Gale, I tried to alter my indents so it wouldn't appear that I was replying to you. I was trying to reply to the original poster. I probably could have been more diplomatic in my response as well. I'll post the same on your talk page so you are sure to see it. Veriss (talk) 02:14, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be relevant if true, but I believe Al Gore did not finish his Masters of Divinity or his DJP at Vanderbilt University.[10] That fact pretty much makes it a moot point.--Appraiser (talk) 02:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska

It is important to note that Wasilla is a small town of 5000 people <as noted in Wiki>. This provides citizens an idea of the size jurisdiction she served (as mayor and city council member of Wasilla) prior to becoming Governor of Alaska. § —Preceding unsigned comment added by Citizenect (talk • contribs) 01:31, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

People can see that by clicking the "Wasilla" link so it isn't needed here in my opinion. GatorOne (talk) 01:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems like an attempt to minimize the "experience" of Palin. If this edit goes in, then it should merit breaking up the city council experience to emphasis the 16 years she's been in politics. --Theosis4u (talk) 01:39, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, breaking up the article into the positions Palin held would be more consistent with the format on other bio pages, i.e. Obama's. The topic line should also state the years in that position. Example from Obama's page - "State legislator, 1997–2004" --Theosis4u (talk) 02:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia Entry has been tampered with!

Dear Folks,

Earlier today (Aug.29, 2008), I happened to look at Sarah Palin's Wikipedia entry and noticed the paragraphs describing her failed attempt at running a state-owned dairy processor (Matanuska Dairy Maid). I went back to look at the story this evening and it had vanished. Gone! What the heck is going on?

It was a state budget so was moved mostly intact into that the section discussing Budget issues directly above. Veriss (talk) 01:50, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

It looks like an account with the same name as Ms. Palin's son is cleaning and sanitizing the Wikipedia entry. KiTA (talk) 03:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

OMG POV EDITS ON WIKIPEDIA. THIS MUST BE NEWS! :P The article has been heavily edited since then and the apparent SPA has gone silent. Move along, nothing to see here. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 03:50, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Where is the information on this:

Highlights of Palin's tenure as Governor include a successful push for an ethics bill, and also shelving pork-barrel projects supported by fellow Republicans. Though she initially expressed support for the Gravina Island Bridge project, once it had become a nationwide symbol of wasteful earmark spending and federal funding was lost, Palin decided against filling the over $200 million gap with state money.

Palin in support of aerial gunning of wolves?

[11]

From the page linked above:

"If Governor Palin steps in to authorize it, she will be using her powers to benefit just a few Alaskans against the will of the majority of Alaskans," said Dorothy Keeler who is against the helo wolf hunt."

"It's a slaughter. It can't be justified by science. It can't be justified by ethics. In fact, the department's own research said it's not the cause of the moose decline and it will do nothing to help, unless it is continued forever and forever, is a long time," said Keeler."

To read the history of the issue go here: [12]

I would like to see reference made of these issues in the article, especially since it raises the question as to whether Mrs. Palin may in fact be contributing to the problem of undermining scientific integrity:

"On May 11, 2007, in the final days of the legislative session, Governor Palin submitted identical bills, House Bill 256 and Senate Bill 176, to the legislature. These bills, renaming “Intensive Management” as “Active Management,” attempt to avoid successful litigation by Defenders by weakening the scientific standards to be used by the Board of Game’s in approving control programs. The bills would end the requirement that the Board must determine that “predation is an important cause” for a depressed prey population. Instead, the Board would merely need to conclude that same-day airborne or aerial shooting is “conducive” to meeting a population or harvest objective."

I don't disagree with including it if there is a consensus that it's important, I think it needs a link with more substance, to be written more neutrally (i.e. without the word "brutal", that's an opinion) and a more neutral source than "Defenders of Wildlife" though.GatorOne (talk) 01:50, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

IMO blogs and activist web sites are not reliable sources for a biography of a living person. Veriss (talk) 01:53, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - needs reliable, neutral sources for claims like that. Kelly ^hi! 01:57, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Current version looks good to me, except the article being cited says there's a loophole in the ban for Alaska. It's not violating the ban in that case.GatorOne (talk) 02:23, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure this is really relevant here. Maybe on the Political positions of Sarah Palin page. It has not be a major issue during her term as governor, and aerial hunting of predators was just endorsed in the most recent Alaska election on Tuesday. Her role in this debate appears to be exaggerated by these activist pages. How much of this is her doing, and how much is the legislature's or the ADFG's? This policy was in place long before Palin came to office. Calliopejen1 (talk) 02:40, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

If people think it should be moved/removed I'm not opposed, I was just fixing the facts in the posted version GatorOne (talk) 02:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Moved to issues page as per discussion above --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

One wonders how many biologists go hunting wolves with helicopters anyways. Seems like a nonissue to me. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 03:16, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Political positions sub-page

Political positions of Sarah Palin has now been created, and contributions are welcome. This will prevent the main article from cluttering up. Lampman (talk) 02:08, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Should the relevant info, but be duplicated on the main page then? At this point it still is. What is the standard procedure in these cases?--ThaddeusB (talk) 02:32, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, it probably should be summarized as a separate section in this article, then some of the content that's here should be trimmed down. The section on gay marriage, for instance, is not really that important to her term as governor but some people may want to go to the political positions page to see what her views on the matter are. Calliopejen1 (talk) 02:35, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the link/section heading. This should facilitate the trimming down of the current content to summary form.--ThaddeusB (talk) 02:38, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Firing Controversy/Impeachment Quote

The quote about "could face impeachment" seems wrong to include to me. It's a quote from one state senator who said ""This is a governor who was almost impervious to error," says Hollis French, a Democratic state senator. "Now she could face impeachment, in a worst-case scenario." Wall Street Journal I haven't heard it mentioned anywhere as a real possibility and it seems to just be talk by the opposition party. GatorOne (talk) 02:54, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Now the whole section is gone. There's some middle ground here between blowing it out of proportion and deleting it completely. GatorOne (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 02:56, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The impeachment quote is clearly POV & in context doesn't really say what it seems. I removed this part, but restored the section. The section should probably be summarized further since it has its own page now.--ThaddeusB (talk) 03:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Palin prefers her beauty queen past not be emphasized in her coverage

So she said in a taped segment from earlier this year.  $\sim$ Justmeherenow (  ) 03:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Inaccurate statement in Budget section

"In 2008, the state gave each resident $1200"

The qualification for a resident does not exactly coincide with the qualification to receive the $1200, not all residents qualified for the $1200.

Also, the first payments will not be made until at least September 12, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.74.113.13 (talk) 03:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Why was important information removed?

I think it's pretty important to keep all information about this person accurate and full in detail. I'm a bit dismayed that I'm coming to find that Wikipedia is obviously suseptible to the Republican noise machine.

Please re-add this information, it was obviously removed.

Budget

In the first days of her administration, Palin followed through on a campaign promise to sell the Westwind II jet purchased (on a state government credit account) by the Murkowski administration. The state placed the jet for sale on eBay three times. In August 2007, the jet was sold for $2.7 million.[31]

31 = http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/25/us/25jet.html?_r=1&fta=y&oref=slogin —Preceding unsigned comment added by Webshaun (talk • contribs) 03:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)