Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style

See also
Wikipedia talk:Writing better articles
Wikipedia talk:Article titles
Wikipedia talk:Quotations
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/quotation and punctuation

RfC on Consensus

Given WP:CONLIMITED, to what extent and under what circumstances can individual WikiProjects and users customize article appearance with individual styles that deviate from site-wide style guidelines? Interested contributors are invited to participate there. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk)

WP:COMMONALITY

The section on commonality has been cited as a reason for changing one variant of spelling to another. Can we get some views here please? I personally think it's clear enough, but two editors are insisting on changing words like 'organisation' into 'organization' ostensibly because the -z- form is "more accessible" per the wording of the section. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 03:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

In BrEng? No, if "s" was there, it should not be changed to "z", nor the converse. Tony (talk) 03:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I was not aware that there are two editors going around changing words like "organisation" into "organization". Tut tut. Who are these strawmen people? On the other hand, I am well aware of one editor who has been going around changing words like "organization" into "organisation" under the misapprehension that the former is not proper British English. At any rate, here is my position:

For many verbs and verb derivatives that take -ize in American English, authoritative sources clearly establish that either -ize or -ise is proper style in British English. The spirit of WP:COMMONALITY thus encourages the use of -ize in British English articles on Wikipedia. However, our general principle of article stability is paramount, so if an article's style is well-established with either -ize or -ise, it should not be changed. But for new articles or for ones where a predominant style has yet to be established, yes, the commonality principle guides us to use -ize. DocKino (talk) 03:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe anyone is arguing that -iza-, -ize-, or -izi- words are not 'British English'. I would just like to make the distinction that what WP articles on the subject consider these forms to be Oxford English. The argument which was put at the Lennon page was NOT whether Oxford English should be used, but that, apparently, WP:COMMONALITY could be used as grounds for eradicating -isa-, -ise-, -isi- words because these are not sufficiently "accessible". THAT it is that argument I want a discussion on. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 04:31, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

To answer Tony's question, nobody has done any digging about which word form existed in the earliest versions of the article. But the spelling in most WP articles is often an inconsistent mish-mash of American and British spelling, and these need to be rendered consistent, per WP:MOS. The present argument is over whether WP:COMMONALITY trumps WP:ENGVAR, as DocKino is asserting, or whether the two parts of the guideline merely deal with different aspects of style. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 04:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

"WP:COMMONALITY trumps WP:ENGVAR"? That's yet another strawman you've created, Ohconfucius. I gather you find it easier to debate those than you do your fellow editors. I understand...

I do not contend that WP:COMMONALITY trumps WP:ENGVAR. As the very structure of our Manual of Style should make apparent to all, WP:COMMONALITY is fully compatible with WP:ENGVAR. I have stated very, very clearly that in those articles where the -ise style of British English spelling is well established, it should not be changed (unless, of course, a new consensus is arrived at through discussion). Once again, my position is this: The fact is that both -ize and -ise systems are proper British English and acceptable under WP:ENGVAR for articles on topics for which British English is appropriate. For such articles where neither the -ize nor the -ise style has been established, the spirit of WP:COMMONALITY encourages the use of -ize.

By the way, Ohconfucius, your comment here, suggests that you do not appreciate the distinction between the spirit of a principle and its letter. The articulation of a given principle rarely specifies every case to which it might be relevant, but where the general intent of a principle is clear, it is our right—even our responsibility—to interpret it for its applicability to potentially relevant cases. You insist, "If it was intended that Oxford English were to have primacy, then such preference MUST be explicit." That is very simply wrong. Our lives at this moment would be easier, yes, if that preference were made explicit, but we can interpret the principle to cover this matter based on its general intent just as we can interpret its applicability to the many, many other relevant matters that are not made explicit in its brief description: WP:COMMONALITY certainly encourages, say, finding a substitute for the verb to table because that can mean very different and confusing things in British English vs. American English. (Your comment at Talk:John Lennon also suggests, oddly, that you believe that "Oxford English spelling" is somehow not "British English spelling". You've gotten over that, right?) DocKino (talk) 05:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I would kindly remind you stick to the issues, and avoid personalising the matter with your attacks and your patronising tone. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 05:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

You personalized the matter by falsely and needlessly claiming that "two editors are insisting on changing words like 'organisation' into 'organization'" and by willfully misrepresenting my position. For the sake of focusing on the substance of the debate, I forgive you. Now please respond to the substantive argument I have laid out:

• Both -ize and -ise spelling systems are proper British English.
• Where one or the other system is well-established in an article, it should not be changed, given the general principle of stability.
• Where one or the other is not yet well-established in an article, -ize is favored according to the spirit of the principle of commonality.—DocKino (talk) 05:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• It's preposterous - how could I have 'personalised' it when I didn't even make a reference to your identity? We only disagree on the third point. You may not have seen my script, but it does cater for use of Oxford English. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 05:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• "Preposterous"? Oh, so you didn't very clearly mean me? Then tell us, who are these two miscreants?
• A-n-d...back to the substance. The description of your script looks unobjectionable, but the description is inaccurate. It claims that "it leaves -iza-, -ize-, and -izi- words untouched", but that is not so. Let's look at what the script did on the Featured Article Sex Pistols: It correctly changed breakup to break-up throughout. It also changed 14 -iza-, -ize-, and -izi- words. (And, as a side note, the unavoidable flaw in the script that the description does accurately identify came into play: colored was changed to coloured inside a quotation from a published source.) DocKino (talk) 05:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• It appears that you haven't personally experienced the tool, and I invite you to try it. Please don't complain at me unless it was a script bug. From the diff, it appears the script was converting 'z-words' as intended - as indicated by the {{EngvarB}} template at the top. If the conversion to Oxford variant had been chosen, there would be a {{EngvarOx}} template at the top. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 06:07, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
• I would also invite you to Read The Manual with care, because it seems that you are eager to jump on me for what my script does without fully understanding what it is supposed to do, and the responsibility of the user making the edit with it. FYI: the doc specifically states that words in single or double quotes will be converted. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 06:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC) [FYI, please take a breath and take a moment to read what I actually write: "the unavoidable flaw in the script that the description does accurately identify". DocKino (talk) 06:29, 28 July 2010 (UTC)]

(after edit conflict)

OK. I see what happened with this application of the script on Sex Pistols. Radiopathy set it to "British English" function when the predominant style of the article was "Oxford English". This is not entirely his fault—some of that goes to you and some of that goes to the article's engaged editors...i.e., me.

On your side: Differentiating in the script between "Oxford English" and "British English" functions is a mistake. The names of the functions confuses the fact that Oxford English is British English. Script-runners working on many B.E.-related articles will naturally tend to choose the "British English" function for all, given those two choices. You need to come up with different function names that compel script-runners to take a closer look at the B.E.-themed articles they want to run the script on.

On my side: The article was predominantly, but not entirely in Oxford English style. Of 19 words that could go either way, 14 were in -ize style and 5 in -ise style. That's a clear predominance, but the fact is that the one word in the lead section that could go either way was in -ise style. If Radiopathy had actually eye-balled the article (given the nature of his sweep and its effect on other mature articles, I am sure he did not), it would have been reasonable for him to assume it was not in Oxford style. That's on me.

But that's just one article. Your script can affect many articles, and many British English articles are clearly and properly (though not always perfectly) in Oxford style. If it is not possible to design a script that recognizes which is the predominant style in an article, you must at least change the function names so one style does not sound "less British" than the other. DocKino (talk) 06:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• I'm glad some semblance of calmness seems to have been restored. If my doc doesn't make it sufficiently clear, then of course it should be clarified. I'm open to suggestions about renaming the buttons, but I tend to feel that, if clarification is indeed needed, there needs to be clarification at British English, Oxford English (which incidentally is only a redirect) and/or American and British English spelling differences, all of which my doc already links to. However, I believe that it is already the majority view that 'British English' spelling generally does not use the 'z-words' in favour of 's-words', but that under the Oxford variant, 'z-words' are acceptable. I'm open to suggestions as to how to further reduce any ambiguity in the script buttons. I'd also like to reiterate my view that preponderance of one form over another is not and should not be an invitation to change all occurrences to the dominant form, nor would it be acceptable for an article to be deliberately diluted with 'z-words' and then stealthily aligned to OED spelling. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 06:46, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

There are three substantive points here I can address.

(1) "I believe that it is already the majority view that 'British English' spelling generally does not use the 'z-words' in favour of 's-words', but that under the Oxford variant, 'z-words' are acceptable."

I'm not sure how your claim about the "majority view" might be objectively verified in this case. What I do know is that both Oxford and Chambers clearly establish that either -ize or -ise is proper style in British English, and both give -ize first.

(2) "preponderance of one form over another is not and should not be an invitation to change all occurrences to the dominant form"

I fervently disagree. Consistency is a bottom line of good style. I know it, you should know it, and our Manual of Style says it.

(3) "nor would it be acceptable for an article to be deliberately diluted with 'z-words' and then stealthily aligned to OED spelling"

I agree. While I firmly believe that the intent of WP:COMMONALITY clearly does favor -ize, stealthy dilution and realignment is not what we are about here. If there is no compelling reason to change an appropriate and established style, it should not be changed. If there is no well-established style, then the process of applying a consistent one should be open and transparent. DocKino (talk) 07:08, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

It is a well-known absurdity that at least one BrEng dictionary (the OED), still insists on putting the z as first spelling; yet British usage (and that of five of the seven ancestral anglophone countries) has firmly swung to the s since the 1970s. It is now generally accepted, except among the elderly and The Times newspaper. In Australia, the z is rare, only just tolerated, and is increasingly regarded as "American". Tony (talk) 07:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I concur. Many Brits also consider 'z-words' to be American, not just Aussies. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 07:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Tony, Chambers also puts -ize as first spelling. Two highly respected British dictionaries (my Penguin makes a third, but I don't believe it's online), the most famous British newspaper, and the cohort of wise elder Anglophones do not an absurdity make.

Regardless, we are addressing not the concerns of the Commonwealth, but as the passionate DocKino says, those of the pan-English Wikipedia. Do you not think the commonality principle is relevant here...and favors -ize? Frankly, I can see no other reasonable interpretation of the commonality principle embedded in our guideline. Do you disapprove of the commonality principle and believe it should be excised from the guideline?—DCGeist (talk) 08:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

PS: Tony, I'm almost ready to support your dotless "US" cause if you'll join me in getting rid of all these Commonwealth hyphens. "Break-up"? Must we?—DCGeist (talk) 08:48, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• Well I think not. It would strike me as mandating use of Oxford spelling by the back door: Under the guidelines, in an article about a british subject, if an editor puts 'honor' or 'skeptic', one would be allowed to change it, but if someone then puts or changes 'organize', is that article destined to use Oxford English because someone asserts 'commonality' about the 'z-word'?

Help me here, because I don't know. Does Oxford spelling favo(u)r "honor" over "honour" and "skeptic" over "sceptic"?—DCGeist (talk) 09:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• Not that I am aware of. I believe the forms are '-our'. According to details in Oxford spelling, the forms are 'analyse' (and not 'analyze'); 'realize' (and not 'realise') Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 09:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

So this is really just about -ize vs. -ise. Frankly, I see two rational and irresolvable positions here. Sure, everyone gives lip service to the fact that both -ize and -ise are proper Limey English. But no one really LIKES that fact. On the one hand, there's the view that commonality calls for -ize, because that style is shared with American English. And that's exactly what the other hand doesn't like. The other hand, in its heart (!), views -ise as the only TRULY proper Limey English (calm down, kids, just havin' a li'l Yankee fun). Seems to me, you can keep on wrangling over this interminably, or you can set up a proper RFC.—DCGeist (talk) 09:22, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about that. I really am fine with maintaining -ise where it's well-established. To do that, we'll need to have Ohconfucius identify those mysterious "two editors [who] are insisting on changing words like 'organisation' into 'organization'". Usernames, please. DocKino (talk) 09:32, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Ohconfucius, from a check of the contribution histories, it does look like you were making a vastly exaggerated claim about DocKino and PL290. Even if most people on this page might not have known who you were making insinuations about, Doc and PL and anyone here aware of the debates at John Lennon, The Beatles, and Sex Pistols would have. And your characterization was unfair in the extreme—Doc and PL were obviously concerned with maintaining the prevailing style at the Featured Articles they tend, not "insisting" on "changing" anything. Whether you want to express some regret over how you opened this thread, that's entirely up to you.—DCGeist (talk) 09:54, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I was drawn there by a query, and I noticed some apparent edit-warring, and started a discussion. Then, DocKino started pushing this 'WP:COMMONALITY' argument. He could have simply dealt with the matter by pointing out to me the place where all assembled editors had agreed the articles would be in Oxford English, but did not. Instead, he started dumping on me like a ton of bricks when I brought the matter here. I did not even edit the article, except to put an {{EngvarOx}} tag on the article. It was only later that I discovered there had been some edit warring at some Beatles' pages over British English too. The personal attacks and incivilities I was subjected to were about the worst I have ever experienced, and required the intervention of Roger Davies. You say I have been guikty of mischaracterisation, for which I would apologise. Yet I still do not feel the extreme abuse was in any way justified, notwithstanding. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 10:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• WP:COMMONALITY says "Use a commonly understood word or phrase in preference to one that has a different meaning because of national differences." Both s and z variants are universally "understood". There are no differences of meaning. End of issue, it seems to me. Tony (talk) 10:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• The lead line of WP:COMMONALITY reads "Wikipedia tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English." Would not a generous, Wikipedian heart read that to embrace spellings of words that are common to all varieties of English?—DCGeist (talk) 10:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree.

On a side note, purely as a point of information prompted by incidental remarks by various editors about WP:COMMONALITY and WP:ENGVAR (including whether one could "trump" the other): WP:ENGVAR presents four guidelines "to help editors avoid cultural clashes over spelling and grammar" (thus making clear the spirit of what the guideline goes on to detail prescriptively). One of those four guidelines is WP:COMMONALITY (the section Opportunities for commonality). So it doesn't really make sense to talk about WP:COMMONALITY and WP:ENGVAR as alternatives, or one trumping the other. The former is part of the latter. PL290 (talk) 10:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Dan, the z is not common to all varieties of English. Do an experiment for me: go the Australia talk page and say you're gonna change over all of the the instances of ise, isi and isa to the zed form. Watch the reaction. Tony (talk) 12:24, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

- Population of Australia (2010 estimate): 22,402,480 (53rd)

- Population of USA (2010 estimate) 309,842,000 (3rd)

Once again, remembering the spirit of the guideline, rather than merely the letter, would not the same generous, Wikipedian heart read "Wikipedia tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English" to embrace, "the widest possible English-speaking audience"? As a Brit, I'm used to reading both -ise and -ize the whole time, and I don't mind at all which I see. (Unlike, say, "favor"—sorry guys, ain't never gonna see me using that!) I'm happy to use -ize on WP if it brings a small enhancement to the majority of my fellow global-villagers. PL290 (talk) 13:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• I can't help being slightly bemused by the logic in using those numbers. It seems to suggest that en.WP should now adopt American English because that is by far and away the most populous variant of English<gasp, shock, horror!>. I for one would welcome the project-wide consistency that would bring, and a certain death knell to ownership tendencies in all these little empires being built around and across Wikipedia. However, as similar harmonisation proposals before them have fallen for the existence of same ownership cliques, such a proposal will unfortunately also be destined to failure. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 16:38, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Here's my accessibility question: what Firefox compatible spell checker will see if words comply with Oxford English? If the answer is none, then the proposal to favor the -ize variant of British English over the -ise variant is not accessible to editors. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The built-in Firefox spell checker doesn't flag either "realize" or "realise" (as it shouldn't) when set to "English (UK)". (It does flag "favor", as it should: "favour" is 75.6 times as common as "favor" in the BNC, so its unBritishness is clear.) A. di M. (formerly Army1987) (talk) 17:05, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

As a native speaker of South African English my natural tendency is to use the "ise" form when writing. SA English dictionaries use "ise" as standard and mark "ize" as a variant form. When reading, however, I hardly ever notice whether a text uses "ise" or "ize", unless I am deliberately looking for it. As I understand WP:ENGVAR we should use the "ize" form in articles written in American English (maybe Canadian too, I'm not sure). In (most) other varieties both forms are accepted but we must not mix "ise" and "ize" together within an article. Roger (talk) 15:42, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

tl;dr; but I want to point out that both -ize and -ise are used in BrE and the prevalence of -ise in BrE is much smaller than believed: for example, the British National Corpus contains 5511 occurrences of realize and inflected forms thereof, and 9451 of realise and inflected forms. The ratio is 1.71; by comparison, the ratio of the numbers of occurrences of someone to somebody is 3.94, so replacing -ize with -ise on the grounds that an article is written in BrE makes even less sense than replacing somebody with someone on the same grounds. Likewise, avoiding using both -ise and -ize in the same article (provided it's in BrE) makes no more sense than avoiding using both someone and somebody. A. di M. (formerly Army1987) (talk) 15:55, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• Army, your comment was, as usual, very insightful. However, WP agreed long ago not to go by any external policies nor anecdote, but what its editors can agree on. This is just why we always end up in interminable debates about many such aspects, not just style matters. Ho hum... Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 03:11, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

  Huh? What "external policies" or "anecdote" did I mention? A. di M. (formerly Army1987) (talk) 11:21, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

PL290, by your logic, WP would ban any variety other than AmEng. (BTW, does your figure of 309 M account for the ?18% who are Spanish speakers?) Tony (talk) 16:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Ohconfucius and Tony, you know what I meant! Please rearrange my words to form a recognizable/recognisable phrase or sentence. (The figures are from the linked article; I don't actually know the answer about the 18%, but with or without it, the point is made.) PL290 (talk) 16:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, I know perfectly well what you meant. However, I do not feel it makes the logic of your citing the numbers, or the numbers cited themselves, any less escapable. ;-) Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 16:57, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Every time there is an WP:ENGVAR dispute the same tired, trite and utterly irrelevant demographic argument gets dragged out ad nauseum. Please just let it go. Roger (talk) 17:10, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

True, Ohconfucius, but presenting inescapable logic was not my intent (if only these matters were that simple!)—I merely suggest a wider context in which we may wish to consider Tony's Australia comment. PL290 (talk) 17:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Dan, I wanna see you mauled by kangaroos and battered by boomerangs. The denizens at Talk:Australia are waiting! They object to those spiky little angular blops, and hold to their suave, curvaceous s.Tony (talk) 17:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

If I survive, do I get a Coopers ale or two? Might be worth it...—DCGeist (talk) 02:48, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

While I sympathise with Ohconfucius's desire to have spelling neat, tidy, consistent - and American - it just ain't gonna happen. It might be illogical and fiddly, but the rest of the English-speaking world likes to manoeuvre round the glories of English English spelling, even if does give us diarrhoea. Michael Glass (talk) 02:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

LOL. It was a shot in the dark. As someone who has been forcefully arguing that there should be no whimsical change of 's-words' into 'z-words', based on something as subjective as 'commonality' rather than definitive and objective a criterion as 'first major contributor', I see many obstacles. If we can only agree to disagree on such simple a matter, there really is no hope for globalisation at en.wp. ;-) Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 02:55, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

This appears to be a solution in search of a problem. Where have you seen evidence that "whimsical change of 's-words' into 'z-words'" has been taking place? DocKino (talk) 03:10, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Simple, you shortened the quote excessively – If it's subjective, it's whimsical; if it's objective, it ain't. The fallback is WP:RETAIN, according to which When an article has not yet evolved to that point, the variety chosen by the first major contributor should be adopted." Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 05:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

• "If it's subjective, it's whimsical." Wrong. You either need to make more of an effort to become fluent in English or you need to stop prevaricating. "Subjective" means "characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind." "Whimsical" means "resulting from or characterized by whim or caprice". In other words, a "whimsical" act has no rational basis; a "subjective" act very well may. Very different words.
• Both of your recent statements suggest that I and/or someone else whimsically changed -ise to -ize style in an article or articles that had not evolved to the point where -ize was the established style. Please name these articles and provide us with a diff or two so we can judge whether your claims are accurate, sincere but misguided, or simply dishonest. DocKino (talk) 05:21, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Sincere but misguided. The original Talk:John Lennon will do for examples. Ohconfucius' stated rationale is whimsical because it's subjective because it's based on WP:COMMONALITY. No, taking a stand based on pages of debate can't be whimsical, whether that stand is judged to be right, wrong, or even tendentious. And no, Ohconfucius isn't dishonest; he explained why he thinks it's whimsical, and based on his previous history, perhaps he really thinks there can be no other serious opinions; I don't know. I hope we can all be nice enough to keep this detail out of arbitration this time! Can we keep the discussion on spelling, COMMONALITY and RETAIN? Art LaPella (talk) 06:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I hope so, and that will be made easier if Ohconfucius will indeed enlighten us about the insinuation—already objected to when first made above, and now repeated—that "whimsical change of 's-words' into 'z-words'" triggered this discussion. As far as I'm aware, the reverse change was the trigger. Ohconfucius, do you believe otherwise? PL290 (talk) 07:27, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

←Coopers Ale is one of the few good things about Australia, apart from "ise". Pity I hardly ever drink. Tony (talk) 04:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

• You knew I had good taste, Tones. Some Vegemite, a toast, and my snack's complete. -ize, -shmize...let's party.—DCGeist (talk) 04:59, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

In general, I'm a fan of ENGVAR. However, the question in this particular case doesn't seem to be whether WP:COMMONALITY trumps WP:ENGVAR but whether consistency trumps commonality. We've seen that the case can be made for -ize as acceptable in British English.

We could add something to the section on commonality, but is this problem widespread enough to justify that? Darkfrog24 (talk) 10:34, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:COMMONALITY is just fine as it is; it is being intentionally misinterpreted by one editor to justify his campaign to force Oxford spelling into certain articles for no reason other than that is his preference. There's no need to change or amend WP:COMMONALITY; it's well understood by the majority. Radiopathy •talk• 21:25, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh, dear God. That's sound terrible, Radiopathy. Please identify this editor who is waging a "campaign to force Oxford spelling into certain articles". Please identify the articles where he or she is waging this campaign. And please provide us with the evidence, by way of diffs, that establishes that this nefarious editor is in fact trying to "force" Oxford spelling "into" certain articles rather than, say, trying to maintain and/or make consistent Oxford spelling—per WP:MOS/"Internal consistency", WP:MOS/"Stability of articles", and WP:RETAIN—where it is already the universal or predominant style.

While you're gathering that all-important evidence to present to us, Radiopathy, you should be pondering a certain question. Given your highly principled opposition to editors attempting to force certain varieties of British English spelling into articles, how would you judge an editor who was waging a campaign to force out Oxford spelling from certain articles for no reason other than that is his preference? And what if that very same editor who was trying to force out Oxford spelling from certain articles for no reason other than that is his preference was also going around making false insinuations about his fellow editors? Would you consider that person a hypocritical shmuck? Or what? We breathlessly await your answer. DocKino (talk) 05:44, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I can see the Oxforders' point, but I think it just makes things too complicated. Really ENGVAR has always been mostly about UK vs US spelling, with UK spelling meaning what's usually understood by that phrase. Even having to call out the Canadians and Aussies separately is already a headache. If we have to get into subtle variants within the UK I think we're going past the point of diminishing returns. --Trovatore (talk) 20:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that what's usually understood by UK spelling is the spelling used in the UK, and it turns out that in the UK the -ize spelling is nearly as frequently used as the -ise spelling, so arbitrarily banning one because allowing both "just makes things too complicated" seems pointless to me: IMO it's banning one that is more complicated. (What next, ban somebody in favour of someone?) A. di M. (talk) 00:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, the thing is, there is no problem with using both somebody and someone in the same article. (Except that both words are a little informal-sounding, and unlikely to appear in encyclopedic writing — that's orthogonal to the current problem.)

The complication is not in allowing -ize in British English articles; it's in singling out another variant, the so-called "Oxford" one. If you don't do that singling out, then I agree there's no extra complication. But that means that it would be acceptable to have organize and jeopardise appear in the same article. Is that something you would want to allow? It's plausible in principle, I guess. --Trovatore (tally k) 20:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

It looks like I had misunderstood you, then. I am in favour of allowing both -ize and -ise in articles written in BrE, and (mistakenly?) believed you would want to only allow the latter. (As for whether it should be allowed to use both in the same article, I have no strong opinion either way.) A. di M. (talk) 15:04, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

My opinion is that a separate "Oxford English" should not be enumerated as an English variety for the purposes of ENGVAR. I have no strong objections to allowing -ize in British English (that's not my fight; I'm not a British English speaker). But if there's no separate Oxford variant, then I don't see any formal way to ban having organize and jeopardise appear in the same article. --Trovatore (talk) 05:35, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it could be treated like the serial comma. Darkfrog24 (talk) 09:50, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes. What you (Trovatore) said matches my thoughts about the matter better than I myself had been able to express. A. di M. (talk) 22:58, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

You must realise, or in your case realize, that the "-ze" looks rather jarring to many UKish speakers, and is flagged up as a spelling error by the Mac OSX system spellchecker. Some cases may be technically acceptable, depending on which dictionary one uses, but not common use. So, best sorted out on individual articles, but for goodness sake don't ban "-se", poor old Isa would be most upset. . . dave souza, talk 06:41, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Soccer is also a common word and originates in Oxford, but like "ize" it is now seen in Britain by most people as an Americanism, so even if one could convince the editors here that ize is just as acceptable as ise, for most British readers would color their view of the article and would be a distraction. Using soccer instead of football is a red rag to a bull for many fans of the beautiful game in the UK (as many an edit war has shown)-- PBS (talk) 06:19, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with A. di M. If both -ise and -ize are correct British English, then we should allow editors their freedom within Engvar so long as each article is consistent within itself. With regard to Americanisms, seeing British-style punctuation in articles that are supposed to be in American English is a huge turnoff for me, so I can identify with Brits who don't want to be impinged upon. As for commonality, let's look at it from the other side. Is not banning -ise causing us any problems? Will non-British readers seeing -ise in a British English article be confused or insulted? So far it doesn't look like they would be. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:10, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

The funny thing is, no one here is actually trying to ban -ise. Rather, the opposite: one editor is waging a campaign to expunge -ize, and is going round systematically removing it where it's already established in British articles. He now has a new toy to do the ethnic cleansing faster: Ohconfucious's script. That's what triggered this whole thread. You can see it if you look carefully. But watch out for the straw men. FWIW, as a Brit I'm used to seeing both -ise and -ize all the time, and I'm quite happy with both. PL290 (talk) 12:45, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) You have to look damn carefully to find examples of my "ethnic cleansing". Read this discussion and tell me where you see me trying to abolish -ize or favoring one nationality over another. This is about the narrow point of view of two editors, and lies and personal attacks are not going to change the majority opinion. Radiopathy •talk• 17:46, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's an example of the sort of behavior of yours that PL290 is describing:

• This edit to Sex Pistols employed a script to unilaterally change the style of that Featured Article from its clearly prevailing -ize style to -ise tyle.
• The edit to the article's well-established style--the style it had, for instance, when it was Wikipedia's Featured Article of the day this past May 5--was preceded by not even the briefest attempt at discussion on the article's Talk page.
• When I reverted your unilateral, undiscussed change--which obviously runs contrary to WP:MOS/"Stability" and WP:RETAIN, and which I suggest also contravenes the spirit of WP:COMMONALITY--you left this template warning on my Talk page, which (a) falsely claims that I had perpetrated a contentious style change (which is, obviously, what you did) and (b) clearly suggests that you believe the article's existing style--that is, -ize style--is "not" British English. DocKino (talk) 20:50, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

All of those articles stood for years with the -ise suffix unchallenged, except for the occasional "spelling error" edit by someone not familiar with the UK variant. Your decision to change to all Oxford spelling runs counter to the spirit of WP:RETAIN. You should just accept responsibility for that and move on. WP:COMMONALITY does not have a thing to do with what you are trying to argue here. Your persistent invoking of an inappropriate guideline continues to weaken your position.

And BTW, where in those links is demonstrated my "ethnic cleansing"? Radiopathy •talk• 22:01, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Fact check

Method: I searched the history of the most recently disputed article, Sex Pistols, for the letters "ize" and "ise". I excluded words like "rise" that can only be spelled one way, and I excluded quotes, references etc. because the original spelling was likely to be used. I used every 500th version that the editor shows, so the results should be considered a random sample.

Results:

June 22, 2010 13 -ize, 7 -ise.

July 16, 2009 14 -ize, 6 -ise.

March 19, 2009 5 -ize, 6 -ise.

September 15, 2008 3 -ize, 8 -ise.

February 3, 2008 2 -ize, 6 -ise.

June 7, 2007 1 -ize, 7 -ise.

October 17, 2006 1 -ize, 7 -ise.

June 22, 2006 2 -ize, 4 -ise.

August 30, 2005 1 -ize, 1 -ise.

July 16, 2001 0 -ize, 0 -ise. Art LaPella (talk) 22:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for following up with this objective analysis.

I believe the actual count on June 22, the final state of the article before Radiopathy applied the script, demonstrates even more conclusively that -ize was the prevailing style. Outside of quotations and source names, among words that could be spelled either way, I count 15 instances of -ize, -iza, -izi: recognized, organized, organized, politicized, recognized, hospitalized, criticized, recognized, mythologized, characterizes, emphasizes, vocalization, characterization, characterization, organizing. I count just 5 instances of -ise, -isa, -isi: organisers, fictionalised, fictionalised, organised, organisers.

Clearly, to use the language of WP:RETAIN, at this point the "article has evolved sufficiently for it to be clear which variety it employs" and thus "the whole article should continue to conform to that variety." (If Radiopathy had changed the 5 -ise words to -ize style to promote internal consistency, there of course would have been no basis for objection.) Clearly, Radiopathy violated WP:MOS/"Stability" and WP:RETAIN with his application of the script. In addition, Radiopathy in his comment immediately above has made explicit his persistent mistaken belief that -ize is not proper UK spelling, despite all the evidence that has been presented to the contrary. DocKino (talk) 23:22, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No, the evidence says that the clear style is apparent in the 22 June 2006 version, where instances of -ise outnumber instances of -ize by two to one compared to the version of 30 August 2005 - thus, according to WP:RETAIN, it is "clear which variety it employs" and "the whole article should continue to conform to that variety".

You also continue to intentionally misrepresent the idea that I believe that ' ...-ize is not proper UK spelling'; I used the term "UK variant" in my comment above, I have never said "spelled incorrectly". You are violating the spirit of WP:RETAIN by insisting that the versions of articles since you started editing them represents the "existing variety". Further, each time you invoke WP:COMMONALITY to argue your case, you alienate more editors. Radiopathy •talk• 23:58, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

This is obviously nothing to do with MOS but is a content dispute - which should be dealt with via appropriate channels.Nigel Ish (talk) 23:27, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

In fact, there are two substantive debates concerning the Manual of Style here:

(1) I have asserted, with apparent support from PL290, that the spirit and intent of WP:COMMONALITY favors the -ize form of British English in those UK-themed articles that have yet to evolve to the point where one or the other style clearly prevails. Radiopathy and OhConfucius strongly disagree. (Tony has strongly disagreed in so far as this debate might concern Australian-themed articles and Australian English, but I have only ever meant to address UK-themed topics and British English.)

(2) Radiopathy appears to suggest that -ise is so very much favored in British English that at any time, an article where -ize prevails--now matter how well evolved it is, no matter its current state--may be summarily altered to -ise style if it can be shown that the first ever contributor to use a word that could be spelled either -ize or -ise choose the latter. I strongly disagree, believing this to be a deep misreading of WP:RETAIN. In comments later redacted by Roger Davies, OhConfucius made an argument similar to Radiopathy's, but went even further, arguing that if the first ever contributor to use a word that could be spelled either -ize or -ise choose the former, that contributor's nationality should be determined to make sure they were not American. OhConfucius has never apologized for or retracted this suggestion, which I find nauseating. Regardless of how anyone else might feel about instituting nationality tests for certain article contributions, OhConfucius's argument again reflects a deep misreading of WP:RETAIN, favoring a sub-clause over its primary directive.

Sorry, Nigel, but this is not a content dispute. It is a style dispute that raises significant questions about the meaning and intent of our style guideline. DocKino (talk) 23:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) I'm glad you brought this up - "nationality test" indeed! Just like WP:COMMONALITY? Or Radiopathy is the only one on Wikipedia who can't see how right you are? -ise? Not proper UK English? Existing variety means the variety that existed after you started editing? Nationality test! Let's hear some more! Radiopathy •talk• 00:06, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Before the recent screaming, Radiopathy offered a slight variation on what I believe to be his deep misreading of WP:RETAIN. In this one, he suggests that if you arrive at an article to discover a style you don't favor, WP:RETAIN encourages you to go hunting in the past to see if the article ever exhibited a tendency toward a style you do like. If you have to go back to 2006 to find one--to a version of the article where there were 6 relevant words rather than the current 20; where there were, for instance, 3 inline citations rather than the 234-plus when you ran the script --you go right ahead. You call that four-year-old mess an "evolved" version of the article. Then you unilaterally change the current style of the article to the one you prefer.

I don't believe this is the primary directive of WP:RETAIN. I think it tells us clearly, that if we arrive at an evolved article to discover a style we don't favor, we don't make a wholesale alteration in that style if it is a proper one. But apparently it doesn't say that clearly enough. I think we should consider editing WP:RETAIN to cut down on the opportunity for confusion such as that demonstrated by Radiopathy.

Oh, and you poor dear, Radiopathy. WP:COMMONALITY in no way, shape, or form suggests that an individual contributor's nationality is relevant to anything at all. It simply says, "Wikipedia tries to find words that are common to all varieties of English", and I have suggested that the spirit and intent of this is applicable as well to the spelling of words. DocKino (talk) 00:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

We don't need to change a guideline to accommodate one editor. And you are the one who suggested above that Ohconfucius was suggesting a "nationality test". Everyone knows, of course, that "first major contributor" is code for "nationality test" - and that 9/11 was an inside job, too. Sorry Kal, you're the one who said it; you can't weasel out of it now, and your credibility at this point is in the negative numbers. Radiopathy •talk• 00:34, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

OhC proposed a nationality test on the first significant contributor to a UK-themed article if that contributor happened to use Oxford spelling. I don't "suggest" that he proposed such a nationality test; I state it as a matter of fact, and I provided the diff that evidences it. Here it is again. Do you know how to use a hyperlink, Radiopathy, or do you need instruction on that procedure? DocKino (talk) 00:45, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree that discussing WP:ENGVAR belongs on this page (sniping like "9/11 was an inside job" and "do you need instruction" obviously doesn't). Art LaPella (talk) 00:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you both. Art LaPella (talk) 01:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Pursuant to this comment, I would just like to stress that my tool is neutral as it provides users with the option of 'Oxfordization' as well as alignment to 's-words', and that use of the term "ethnic cleansing" would appear to me to be grossly pointy rhetoric. Thank you for your attention. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 02:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

"Radiopathy appears to suggest that -ise is so very much favored in British English that at any time, an article where -ize prevails--now matter how well evolved it is, no matter its current state--may be summarily altered to -ise style if it can be shown that the first ever contributor to use a word that could be spelled either -ize or -ise choose the latter."

This has nothing to do with which form is favored in "British English" - stop attributing a non-existent arguement to me. Once again, WP:RETAIN is about determining and respecting the existing variety and carrying it through to subsequent revisions - it has nothing to do with the prevalence or lack thereof of the -ize suffix in the current revision. Once a clear style evolves, we don't change it. And yes, if one is going to abide by WP:RETAIN, one needs to check the article history to determine "first major contributor" as well as when the article "evolved sufficiently for it to be clear which variety it employs". Radiopathy •talk• 02:32, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

For Sex Pistols, the article history favors -ize, -ise, or neither, depending on whether we go back 0–1 years, 2–4 years, or 5–9 years. Is that typical of the articles in question? If not, then perhaps a case like Sex Pistols could be compromised away because it doesn't happen very often. Art LaPella (talk) 05:05, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to the analysis performed by Art LaPella, we see that the swing in the number of 'z-words' over 's-words' occurred between 19 March and 16 July 2009. Since this article has been chosen to illustrate the issue, I will continue with a few diffs:

In fact, in examining the z-words extant as at 16 July, I have established that most were inserted between 20 March and 1 April 2009 by Doc Kino. I am not saying or implying in any way he did this to deliberately alter the ratio, but the facts are that he is a major contributor to the article who has, through his own efforts, conscious or otherwise, shifted the balance in favour of z-words. His present claim to adopt the "prevailing style" per WP:RETAIN would appear to be based purely on the current state of the article, whereas he clearly did not take into account the state of the article as he was making his additions in that period in question.

• vocalisation 14:21, 20 March 2009
• pressurized 13:18, 22 March 2009 *note this is within a quote
• politicized 04:19, 22 March 2009
• hospitalized (extant as at 19 March)
• stylized [] *note this is within a quote
• criticized (extant as at 19 March)
• characterization 14:43, 31 March 2009
• characterizes 14:43, 1 April 2009
• catalyzed 14:43, 31 March 2009 *note this is within a quote taken, as the ref suggests, from an audio recording, and this word is not an Oxford recognised variant!
• recognized (extant as at 19 March)
• organizing 09:03, 22 March 2009
• organized 08:21, 20 March 2009

It is equally clear that the first instance of any z/s-word –'fictionalised' – was inserted on 16 February 2003, and that there has never been any effort to apply proper WP:ENGVAR spelling to the article until Radiopathy ran my script on the article, thus stirring up the objections from PL and DocKino, on the grounds of WP:COMMONALITY. Having now nudged the article clearly into 'z-word' dominance, it seems that they are now arguing WP:RETAIN although it was clearly ignored by DocKino when making the above additions shown with the diffs. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 05:23, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Ohconfucius and Radiopathy, it does appear that you are both misreading the guideline, which is meant to forestall contentious changes of proper style, not encourage them. It is evident from the record that by the time you, Radiopathy, first took notice of the style of Sex Pistols, the article was well-developed and stable, and the -ize style, whatever its more or less distant history, was established. You had three choices at that point, one good—do nothing; one questionable—start a discussion to argue for a change in the style (there seems no good reason to do so, as the -ize style is a proper one for a British topic); and one bad—change the style as you did.

Ohconfucius, your analysis of Dockino's contributions to the article do suggest that the balance of style shifted from -ise to -ize as a result of his extensive writing. It's not clear to me if -ise was the clear and established style of the article when Doc started contributing extensively to it or not. If it was, he should have abided by it at the time. If the article had too few words and sufficient inconsistency among them to determine a clear style, then he did not err in favoring -ize as he wrote. In either event, I see no evidence that Doc's writing with -ize was contentious in the least. (If you came across any, Ohconfucius, let us know.) Regardless, what Doc did over a year ago or what, er, Quercusrobur did in 2003 is not particularly relevant to what Radiopathy did last week. RETAIN asks us to respect an "evolved" style: perhaps Doc failed to do so a year ago, as a side effect of his writing; certainly Radiopathy failed to do so a week ago, as a direct effect of his application of your script.

ALP, my guess would be that it is not rare at all for articles to go through stylistic fluctuations over time. What RETAIN asks us to do is to leave well-developed, stable articles with clear styles alone. If you encounter such an article, there's no need to check the article history. Only for underdeveloped articles without a clear style does the history become relevant. The history was not relevant last week in this case, nor is it today, nor would it be in any similar case—and again, I think many articles that are fine today have tortuous style histories. Our guideline wisely advises us to focus not on that past, but on the "evolved" present. That's the best way to avoid this sort of unnecessary conflict.—DCGeist (talk) 06:45, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Dan, I also believe that this conflict is not a common one. Let me remind all that the initial argument was over the applicability if WP:COMMONALITY, and we seem to have drifted significantly from it. I can accept your interpretation as one such possible option of solving the conflict – although I believe it is not what WP:RETAIN sets out to say – if only not to prolong this nastiness which has been exploding here as well as in the John Lennon talk page over the course of the last week.

I would just observe that American-related articles tend to be stable in spelling style, and their spellings tend to be rapidly 'corrected' into Americanizationz if a Brit has added British English spellings. Also in my experience, there are British articles with fairly strict application of British English spelling, although Americanisations occasionally creep in unnoticed; spelling in less highly-watched British subjects' articles are often laxer. Other non-Brit/non-American articles tend to be a broader mix, with few people in general caring about whether its in American or British spelling, even lesser so Oxford, and these 'evolve' as a hotch-potch until someone decides to do something about it –enter the script. All that is except for articles where one editor or a small tight group of editors has been dominant or has exercised permanent vigil over a given article, and change the spellings manually when they are spotted. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 07:33, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

PS. I have just re-read the relevant parts of the guideline, and feel that there was no misunderstanding on my part. Instead, there has clearly been an attempt to bend the rule for the sake of some notional "stability", because it's clearly at odds with what WP:RETAIN states; what Dan said about there having been no objection to DocKino's progressive introduction of 'z-words' seems to be akin to using the debunked silence implying consent. The rule sought to be applied here seems to me more like WP:IAR + WP:CONSENSUS. Let me be on record saying I have no issue with that, if that is genuinely what the consensus is. However, any attempt to modify the guideline in line with Dan's interpretation can only mean the considerable weakening of the 'first major contributor' rule. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 18:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Dan points out that it's probably not rare for articles to undergo stylistic fluctuations over time; I would add that whether or not such a shift—from one acceptable style to another—is in fact rare, we surely have no reason to discourage it. Like any other aspect of an article, its style has evolved over time to its present state because of what editors have contributed, and the article is now stable in that state To suddenly impose a different style on such an already-stable article, based on something dug up from the past, is to misunderstand WP:ENGVAR (and its subsections WP:RETAIN and WP:COMMONALITY). The underlying principle of that guideline is to prevent clashes over spelling and grammar, and to provide a reference point when, early in an article's development, editors cannot agree which style to use. To invoke it for the purpose of imposing a style change on a stable article is a serious misapplication of the guideline. Clarification of the wording is needed to prevent this sort of misunderstanding from happening in the future. I will be happy to attempt such presently, unless someone gets there first or makes suggestions about it here meanwhile. PL290 (talk) 09:29, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

If the article had stayed stable - had editors been more vigilant - then there would be no need to spend valuable time researching and reverting. You are still obviously misunderstanding WP:RETAIN, and any "clarification" you submit will only muddy the waters more. Besides, this discussion is about your and DocKino's misapplication of WP:COMMONALITY; do you also intend to address that? Radiopathy •talk• 14:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

It should be brought to everyone's attention that PL290 has taken it upon himself to change the wording of WP:RETAIN, without any discussion and without any agreement. Radiopathy •talk• 14:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

• Well, he did say he would try. Not terribly well written, and sounds unfortunately like point-scoring, imho. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 17:51, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Revising WP:RETAIN

It seems evident that it is necessary to revise and clarify the guideline. The latest contributions to this thread are bewildering.

Radiopathy, it is you who recently destabilized the article, and that action which prompted this debate. All articles go through periods of instability as they are developed—as information is added and corrected, reference formats are changed and changed again, different structures tested, rejected, and finally agreed upon. Changes in various style matters are a normal part of that process. But as ALP and, yes, Ohconfucius have demonstrated, the article had been stylistically stable for over a year when you ran your script on it. There was, in fact, "no need to spend valuable time researching and reverting." (And, I'm sure you will admit that indeed you spent no time researching before you ran the script.) When you saw a stable article with an evolved style, according to RETAIN, you should have moved on. What you did, very simply, was to violate RETAIN, and as Doc has pointed out, the general Stability of articles clause. All the historical digging in the world won't change that fact.

Ohconfucius, your latest revision of your argument is baffling. You seem to be arguing that the "first major contributor" clause somehow trumps the lead sentence of RETAIN: "When an article has evolved sufficiently for it to be clear which variety it employs, the whole article should continue to conform to that variety". You seem to be imagining a "bending of the rule" that does not exist and calling stability "notional" when it has persisted for a year. I'm very surprised that RETAIN can be interpreted to encourage historical digging and "first major contributor" identification in a case where "an article has evolved sufficiently for it to be clear which variety it employs", but you seem wedded to that interpretation.

PL, I saw your first attempt at a revision of RETAIN. If there was any flaw I could see in it, it did not go far enough: the revision should not be limited to matters of spelling, but should cover any ENGVAR-related stylistic concern. It seems evident that the obvious sense of RETAIN must be made even stronger:

When you, the editor, come to an article, here's what you should do:

(1) If the article has evolved sufficiently for it to be clear what style it employs, abide by that style. Whatever happened in the past is irrelevant.

(2) If the article has not yet evolved to that point, you may employ any appropriate style.

(3) If the article has not yet evolved to that point and there is disagreement between two appropriate styles that be cannot be resolved through discussion, identify in the article's history the first edit to choose between the styles and follow the choice made in that edit.—DCGeist (talk) 19:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

To further strengthen clause (1), we might want to think about crafting a benchmark to forestall arguments (though, as is evident, we can never entirely eliminate them) over whether an article has or has not "evolved sufficiently for it to be clear what style it employs".—DCGeist (talk) 20:06, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Dan, Let's look at exactly what WP:RETAIN says:

When an article has evolved sufficiently for it to be clear which variety it employs, the whole article should continue to conform to that variety, unless there are reasons for changing it based on strong national ties to the topic. When an article has not yet evolved to that point, the variety chosen by the first major contributor should be adopted. Where an article that is not a stub shows no signs of which variety it is written in, the first person to make an edit that disambiguates the variety is equivalent to the first major contributor.

Emphasis mine. I hope you are not attempting to argue that an edit such as this does not clearly disambiguate the variety of British English the article, which certainly was not a stub at the time the edit was made, thus putting into question the need to revise the guideline. We may need to scour the archives for the reason for installing the 'first major contributor rule', but I just feel that, in circumstances such as this, it is the only objective criterion. If not, how exactly is one to define 'evolution' and 'stability'? Yes, I have revised my position because the now proposed revision seems to me to be quite the opposite to what good practice of precedence should encourage. Dan already agreed that WP articles are organic and dynamic, so the need for objectivity is all the greater. I just feel that using the 'first major contributor rule' to be infinitely more reasonable than saying an article's style is stable if this or that has not changed in 100, 500, or 1000 edits. I seem to recall that this point (the use of dmy or mdy dates) was debated at some length during the dates case, and the consensus was that 'first major contributor rule' should be the basis, whatever the 'current' date format was. To say that the revision proposed by PL 'doesn't go far enough' is rather amusing. If the FMC rule had been observed -unreasonable, I know, considering the nature of WP articles - and my script didn't exist, we wouldn't need to be discussing a revision here today. It seems that the real threat to "stability" is attempts at uniformisation. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 02:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Another strawman post: this discussion was started because DocKino and PL290 clearly demonstrated their intention to use WP:COMMONALITY in a manner for which it was not intended - that is the only reason this discussion was started. And the more the discussion unfolds, the more apparent it is that they are determined to bend or twist the intent of any policy or guideline that stands in the way of their getting the outcome they desire. It is clear that no amount of reasoning will get them to admit that their interpretation of both WP:RETAIN and WP:COMMONALITY is mistaken and self-serving. There is no reason to "forestall" arguements like mine and Ohconfucious's, because we're using WP:RETAIN in the way it was intended to be used. There is no reason to consider any changes to either of these guidelines, since it's not the guidelines that are flawed. Radiopathy •talk• 01:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Since you both feel at liberty to ignore the plain sense of the lead sentence of RETAIN, there is obviously a pressing need to revise the guideline.

Radiopathy, whether we locate the fundamental flaw in the present text of the guideline (possible) or your tortured interpretation of it (certain), the guideline needs to be recast so you can not continue to imagine that your violation of it is a demonstration of respect for it. I also think you don't quite understand what a "strawman" is. What in my post made you think it was a "strawman" post? My concern with RETAIN rather than COMMONALITY hardly constitutes a "strawman": indeed, I included a new header to make the shift in focus (which had been building for a while) transparent.

Ohconfucius, you have declared that the way to address the organic and dynamic history of any given WP article, no matter what level of quality and stability it may have reached, is to alter it to conform to the style of a years-old edit by a contributor who...may have never made a single other edit to the article; who may have contributed little other than dreck to it; who may have subsequently changed his mind. That's a mad notion. Imagine a now excellent article on a topic that could be in either American English or British English style, and happens to be in the latter. According to your rule, if the "first major contributor" seven years ago submitted an unsourced, biased, OR-riddled, unpunctuated, syntactically awkward first edit that happened to be in American English style, we're obliged to change the article now, in 2010, to American English. Crazy. (And if you think that hypothetical is unlikely, let me take you on an "organic, dynamic" trip into the dark recesses of some of our best work.)

You know, over at the Featured Article process, where Wikipedia's best work is identified, stability is one of the basic criteria. There's really no problem figuring out when an article has an unstable element and when it doesn't. The idea that we can't determine if and when an article has an evolved, stable ENGVAR style is fairly ludicrous. The "first major contributor" hunt is presently a method of last resort, as it should be. A proposal has just been made to turn the guideline on its head, and put it first. I will resist that tirelessly.—DCGeist (talk) 03:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

• Dan, WP:RETAIN also clearly states that "When an article has evolved sufficiently for it to be clear which variety it employs, the whole article should continue to conform to that variety, unless there are reasons for changing it based on strong national ties to the topic.", so I think we already have that safeguard. What you state is hypothetical, and I am pretty sure you know it. I guess your not afraid that Tony will set the 'roos on you! ;-) Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 09:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Beware, Dan. Radiopathy takes "fanatical" as a compliment, and in the midst of this discussion, OhC just insidiously disrupted Wikipedia to make a point. Hey, PoisonConfucius, I noticed that you still have not retracted your demand for nationality tests on contributors. I see that fits in well with your new demand to determine "first major contributors" for all Wikipedia articles where national English style might in any way be at issue. When do you intend to launch your pogrom? Or does your nasty edit on The Clash indicate that it's already underway? DocKino (talk) 05:47, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

It's time for DocKino to come clean WTF his agenda is, and for him to stop taking cheap shots at me ("Confucius ask, 'Who yo mama?'"). I think that, truth be told, he just wants it his way with z-words. Bearing in mind the number of edits he has made to Sex Pistols, John Lennon, and The Clash, one might be forgiven for assuming that he may think he owns those articles. If DK had just cared to check the version immediately preceding my edit before making that accusatory comment above, he would have found one instance each of 'realising', 'crystallisation', 'realise', 'popularise', 'surprised', 'organising', 'compromising' - a tally of seven occurrences. I only corrected two instances of 'Oxfordized' words ('politicized'), and removed one blatant Americanizm ('routinized'). By his preferred rule, the preponderance of s-words would have been ample justification for the alignment to non-Oxford British spelling. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 08:59, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Americanism? No, my British dictionary (Chambers) gives "routinized" as the primary spelling, also allowing "routinised". You must by now have been aware that both are acceptable British spellings, so asserting that this is an Americanism, both in an edit summary and again here, is hardly conducive to the discussion. Regarding DocKino's agenda, I think we can safely say that that it is by now crystal clear to all involved in this discussion: (a) to resist unnecessary and sweeping changes to stable articles (pointing out the while, as an incidental observation, that those unnecessary changes are anyway divisive in our global encyclopedia because they go against the spirit of commonality), (b) to defend the false accusation that by undoing the edit that made the unnecessary and sweeping changes to a stable article, he was somehow the one who instigated a change, and lastly, and most relevantly to this discussion page, (c) to encourage revision of the guideline whose misapplication gave rise to the unnecessary and sweeping changes to a stable article in the first place. PL290 (talk) 11:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

• You call this edit at The Clash, and this edit at The Kinks] defense of stability? Don't make me laugh! These were both blind reverts which left things in the mess they were in before – inconsistent dates as well as use of both Oxford and English variants, in total defiance of everything within this guideline. Arguing anything but is tantamount to calling night day, and proves just who is trying to make a point. Look who's calling me "disruptive! pffff! Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 11:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)14:53, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Your disgreement with DocKino over that one edit is not relevant to this discussion page (although those following this discussion may indeed agree that you were provocative to make that edit right now). Neither is your contrasting of "Oxford" with "English" just above (a false contrast still, I believe, enshrined in your script and its template names) helpful to the discussion. I hope you will swiftly take steps to rectify that glaring terminology issue wherever it occurs. This discussion started with the false assertion that WP:COMMONALITY was being cited as a reason for change. Whether or not you retract that accusation, the facts of the matter are clearly laid out on this page for others to see, and the focus of the discussion is now the revision of WP:RETAIN to address the real issue. PL290 (talk) 12:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I present for your approval, PL290, this edit summary. It clearly shows that WP:COMMONALITY was being cited as a reason for change. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. Radiopathy •talk• 13:41, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I will prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that there were no false assertions, only real ones: firstly at Sex Pistols, and then at John Lennon; that DocKino did indeed cite WP:COMMONALITY, repeatedly, and it was Radiopathy who cited WP:RETAIN. I rest my case, M'lud. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 14:45, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Radiopathy and Ohconfucius, for at last producing diffs as requested long ago. Unfortunately, as we now know from the results of investigations by DCGeist and others—who were forced to spend time researching the matter when you would not originally produce diffs to back up your accusations—those edits do not bring change. They resist it. The diffs you show are, in each case, reverts of your sweeping change to a stable article. This knowledge (which is not new) adds nothing at this point in the discussion; may we please now concentrate on the important matter of agreeing a wording revision for WP:RETAIN to prevent future occurrences of the unfortunate misunderstanding that led to your changes. PL290 (talk) 15:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

No, the difs prove that your statement above, "This discussion started with the false assertion that WP:COMMONALITY was being cited as a reason for change", is patently false. And once gain, WP:RETAIN does not need to be reworded; it's clear from this discussion that, in spite of being misinterpreted by a few editors, it's meaning and intent are clear and acceptable to the majority. Radiopathy •talk• 15:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

• PL290, I dig up some diffs to prove your short term memory lapses, and it suddenly becomes irrelevant. And here is an early diff of you sticking up for that line of argument. You made your bed, now you lie in it. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 03:11, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

To respond to Dan's floated idea that we might possibly consider identifying a benchmark to reinforce the revised wording, in my opinion his final paragraph above illustrates precisely why no benchmark is necessary. Spelling out the principle as he has done in his proposed wording above will suffice to prevent future misapplication of the guideline. PL290 (talk) 07:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

If an article started with ise, and falls victim to someone who is running around on a campaign to change everything in BrEng to ize, the article should be changed back to the original. I am keen to hear of editors who are on such a campaign. Tony (talk) 15:44, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I would refer to this post I made earlier. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 15:47, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

At this point I suggest we need to take a reality check and ask ourselves the reason for the guideline, to see if we are applying it correctly. The basis of Radiopathy's campaign to change articles from -ize to -ise appears to be that, against the estabished consensus among current editors—who may, gradually, and over a considerable period, have introduced a style change—it is acceptable to impose a unilateral reversion to the style used long ago, perhaps by an editor no longer even involved with the article—implying some kind of ownership by that editor who once touched the article years ago. I would suggest that rather, the reason for the guideline is to provide a reference point when editors cannot agree a style, and that we have absolutely no reason to discourage a shift in style should one occur naturally as a result of the editing process. PL290 (talk) 16:36, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

At the risk of appearing blunt or even rude, I do not agree with that reading of the general principles of the MoS. Please convince me that it is not serving a private agenda to impose a personal preference. Tony (talk) 16:39, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Any wedded to the alternative are invited to convince us of the same—and that Wikipedia's principles are better served by that interpretation. (BTW, by "guideline" above, I refer to WP:RETAIN, not the entire MoS.) PL290 (talk) 19:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

If an article has had consistent spelling for quite a while (depending on level of activity, that could be one to six months) AND if the spelling is appropriate for the topic of the article, I'd say leave it alone. However, if the spelling of the article is seriously inconsistent, it is really asking too much of an editor who has decided to make the spelling consistent to search for the first edit where the spelling style is apparent (but that IS what we ask). It is even more burdensome to expect the editor who is cleaning up the article to read the entire edit history to figure out if there was ever a consensus to change the spelling of the article (even though that consensus has since been ignored). The latter degree of burden is, in my opinion, too much to ask and editors should feel free to refuse to do that much work. Jc3s5h (talk) 19:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

But suppose an article contains a mish-mash of spellings that a random editor, who is not familiar with the variant of English used in articles relating to a particular nation, decides to make the spellings in that article uniform, and said editor chooses the "wrong" variant? Are DocKino and PL290 then justified in edit-warring over it and making unfounded claims about this or that guideline, or should the article simply be edited again to restore the "proper" variant by an editor who is willing to do the extra work? Radiopathy •talk• 00:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Although I am reluctant to stick my toe into the toxic waters of this "discussion", I will volunteer this answer:

• If "the 'wrong' variant" you mention in your first line is wrong because of strong national ties of the subject, then it is appropriate to change it to the "right" variant, per WP:TIES and WP:RETAIN.
• If it is "wrong" because the well-intentioned editor unknowingly chose a variant different from the established form – where "established" here means just before the last edits – then it's appropriate to revert per WP:RETAIN, and advise the user of the reason, with a pointer to the MoS.
• If there isn't an established form at the time of the user's edit, as the "mish-mash of spellings" in your first line suggests, and there aren't strong national ties per WP:TIES, then we leave the user's edits as useful, because they can't be "wrong" (contrary to your question's phrasing). Whatever happened weeks or months ago, or when the very first dates or -ise/-ize words were added are immaterial, because WP:TIES doesn't apply, WP:RETAIN expired when the "mish-mash" crept in, and the user's edits should be kept per WP:AGF and WP:COMMONALITY.

All based on a reading of the current MoS and basic common sense. No revisions necessary. Move on, now folks; nothing more to see here. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 00:42, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Jc3s5h, surprising though it may seem to some of you assembled here, I happen to wholeheartedly agree with you that common sense should apply, and that most people have better things to do than to dig out the very first version where a certain string (such as an 's-word' or 'z-word' was inserted. However, the wording in the guideline couldn't be more clear, and Tony seems to have confirmed it. I argued long and hard over just such points back when the date formats were being discussed, and I was unfortunateln not able to rally consensus behind me. I don't think the guideline will be changed because of such a minor dispute, just because there in one editor wants to see z-words adopted throughout WP because it's more accessible, and is prepared to edit-war. Such is life. Now it's time to drop the dead donkey, and move on. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 00:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Who exactly are you talking about? Has someone actually demonstrated that they are prepared to edit war throughout Wikipedia to impose -ize? Who is this person?

On the other hand, I see you are undertaking a campaign to slap an "EngVarB" template on any article that strikes your fancy. Including on this article, which happens to be in American English. The next time you drop a dead donkey, try not to drop it on your head.

Tony hasn't been good enough to actually share his interpretation of the general guidance of RETAIN. But I'll say this. When an editor claims "the wording in the guideline couldn't be more clear" and simultaneously supports violation of the guideline, the wording could be more clear.—DCGeist (talk) 08:25, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

• Not so incredible. I was working through some of the articles whose talk pages had been tagged {{British English Oxford spelling}}, and United Nations was one of them. I didn't put it there, but I assumed that someone had thought about it and put it there in good faith. Where's yours? Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 09:47, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

You make it very difficult to assume good faith when you claim that your placement of a "British" (non-Oxford) English template on the United Nations article page was justified by a prior placement of an Oxford English template on the Talk page.

You make it very difficult to assume good faith when I see your editing behavior coupled with new claims that some anonymous someone is willing to edit war to see -ize adopted throughout Wikipedia. That sounds as credible as the average tabloid gossip columnist's blind item. This is not a tabloid. What is the name of this editor and can we see some evidence of his or her ongoing ize-ization campaign?—DCGeist (talk) 10:05, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

WP-RETAIN: Scrap, revise, or keep as is?

The English Wikipedia does not consider one variety of English more correct than another. The guideline WP:RETAIN provides editors with a point of reference if they cannot agree which variety an article should use: in that event, the variety used by the first major contributor may be used. Should we change articles back to that style if we later discover they have evolved to use a different style? What Wikipedia principles should guide us here? Should RETAIN be scrapped, revised or kept as is? PL290 (talk) 09:28, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• Scrap or revise - RETAIN is increasingly being invoked to support attempts to impose sudden change on stable articles, against consensus that has evolved concerning those articles. This is preposterous, and disruptive. If there are strong national ties to the topic, WP:TIES applies. In all other cases, we should be guided by the Wikipedia principles of article stability, avoiding conflict and disruption, and consensus as a result of the editing process. Hence when building up and improving an article, editors—who are perhaps newcomers to the article—should, out of respect for its current editors, attempt to adhere to its existing style. The editors tending the article will naturally, and on an ongoing basis, modify any edits they disagree with (whether because of style, relevance, prose quality or anything else). Thus—except when there are national ties to the topic—consensus as a result of the editing process is seen at work, just as with any other aspect of the article's content, and Wikipedia's principles give us absolutely no reason to discourage it. In the interests of article stability and avoiding conflict and disruption, therefore, our guideline should explicitly discourage such attempts to make a sudden, sweeping style change to any article without first gaining consensus. Trying to justify such attempts simply on the basis that one editor—perhaps no longer even involved with the article—once touched the article years ago, and as a result has some kind of ownership of it, is, frankly, ludicrous in a consensus-based editing community. RETAIN should be revised to remove the possibility of that interpretation, or, alternatively, simply scrapped unless it can be shown to serve a Wikipedia principle not adequately served by good ol' consensus. PL290 (talk) 09:28, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• Scrap or revise - I completely agree. I have observed two experienced editors, User:Ohconfucius and User:Radiopathy, reject what I thought was the obvious sense of RETAIN: that if a mature article evidences a clear preference for one or another ENGVAR style (assuming that style is appropriate given the national orientation[s] of the article topic), you don't bloody well change that to another style without achieving a new consensus on the matter. Ohconfucius and Radiopathy take a very different view: that if a mature article evidences a clear preference for one or another ENGVAR style that you happen not to like, you should feel free to dig into the dark recesses of the article's history to see if some early contributor happened to employ a style that you do happen to like. And then you can change the article to that style...without discussion...and claim RETAIN as support. This is outrageous. RETAIN must be scrapped or revised to prevent this perversion of our principles and processes.—DCGeist (talk) 09:55, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• comment re your copyedit - you got it right the first time: articles do not prefer, people do. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 10:08, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, and articles evidence people's preferences. Don't pretend to be smarter than you are. It's icky. And your editing behavior is already icky enough.—DCGeist (talk) 10:15, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• A recursive RETAIN, of course. Whilst I am in general agreement with the arguments for stability advanced by the proposer, I feel that the proposal is a recipe for instability and is only advantageous for those seeking to apply their own preferences to game the system. The general stability of most articles has been overseen by the application, and general respect for, the style laid down by the earliest editors of an article. In the same way that we generally try to build on our forefathers' efforts, notwithstanding the occasional revolutions (through a widely discussed consensus), the principle should remain firmly, otherwise all hell will break loose. There is a consensus that the 'first major contributor' rule should be applied to date formats in the absence of strong national ties, and the use of s-words or z-words is no different. The sentence I most vehemently disagree with is that "The editors tending the article will naturally, and on an ongoing basis, modify any edits they disagree with (whether because of style, relevance, prose quality or anything else)." This is code for 'if I am currently maintaining the article, and make improvements, I should not feel constrained to abide by the established style so long as I don't breach WP:TIES. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 09:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• Ohconfucius, you have zero credibility in this matter. Indeed, it is your misbehavior that has prompted this RFC. You have rejected stable, established style as a basis for enforcing stylistic consistency, yet here you tag an article with a non-Oxford-style British English template without even establishing that your basis for style determination, the style chosen by the "first major contributor", supports the style you have elected to tag the article with. You did the exact same thing here—imposing a style template without even abiding by your own fanciful rules. And, big surprise, you did it again here. Talk about gaming the system, you did all that in the span of 13 minutes. You're quite a menace, Ohconfucius.—DCGeist (talk) 10:15, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• In addition, by your refusal to address the pressing questions raised in the preceding subsection in this thread, you have already tacitly admitted that you are not acting in good faith in this matter.

• I noted above that you make it very difficult to assume good faith when you claim that your placement of a "British" (non-Oxford) English template on the United Nations article page is justified by a prior placement of an Oxford English template on the Talk page. You found time for well over 100 Wikipedia edits in the last two days, but you have still offered no excuse for this evidently bad faith behavior.

• I noted above that you make it very difficult to assume good faith when your editing behavior is coupled with your submission of a provocative new claim that some anonymous someone is ready to edit war to see -ize adopted throughout Wikipedia. You found time for well over 100 Wikipedia edits in the last two days, but you have still not provided us with the name of this editor and evidence of his or her ongoing ize-ization campaign.—DCGeist (talk) 11:11, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• Retain RETAIN. It's the editors' behavio(u)r that should be scrapped or revised. Seriously. I haven't seen such childishness last so long since I was in school with other 11-year-olds. If editors can't use common sense to understand when an article has evolved or instructions (as in RETAIN) regarding that established state, then they shouldn't be obstructing a collaborative project like WP. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 13:23, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• Retain or revise. The existence of a policy called "Retain" shows our distaste for recurring brawls like this one. It didn't stop this problem, but it presumably stops other problems. Could it be worded better? Oh maybe, but for one thing, there is no way to automate this problem away, so there will always be a gray area concerning which version to retain. (If you think a "first major contributor" rule can't be Wikilawyered, see Talk:Sharon Johnston.) And for another thing, the main problem isn't a disagreement on precisely how we can best obey RETAIN. The civility policy has been openly flouted by both sides, so it's unlikely that a careful rewording of that policy, or any other rule including RETAIN, would have helped. I don't share the politically correct assumption of our civility policy, but if you're dishing back the insults as enthusiastically as you're getting them, I think it's safe to say you're interfering with a discussion of the substantive issue. Art LaPella (talk) 20:30, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

• Retain. My experience has been that RETAIN works well enough.  HWV258.  21:35, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

• Retain, thanks very much. Tony (talk) 00:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

• Retain the spirit, revise or retain the letter. I would believe the part until the first comma of the second sentence to make clear that if an article has 20 occurrences of -ize and none of -ise, I can (and should) keep on using -ize without bothering to dig through the article history to see whether it has always been that way; but since it appears that some editors haven't got the point, I would support a rewording making it clearer. A. di M. (talk) 15:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

• Retain and reword to reflect the following scenario, based on A. di M.'s comment above: If you come upon an article with 20 instances of -ize and none of -ise, you have the option to continue using -ize in spite of WP:RETAIN; however, if an ambitious editor does look through the history and determines that -ise was the established style, said editor may revert without controversy. Likewise, WP:RETAIN should not be used to enforce a shift from the historic style to a more recent one. Radiopathy •talk• 18:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

  What would be the point of doing that? Editing an article which has consistently been written in a given style for a while to a style it used to use sounds like a waste of time and effort to me. A. di M. (talk) 20:44, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Believe it or not, Radiopathy, this actually goes beyond your bête noire of -ize. The guideline applies to all ENGVAR matters.

Here's an example I know Tony will like. Let's say I come across an article that could be written in either American English or Australian English (aka "Roo"). An example: Australia – United States relations. This article happens to be written in Roo. According to your logic, Radiopathy, no matter how high quality this article, no matter how stable, no matter how long Roo has been its established style, I can be "ambitious", "look through the history", and change the entire article to American English if I find the "first major contributor" happened to use color instead of colour ten years ago (though I see you're now gliding from "first major contributor" to "was the established style"). That is a bad joke. And you imagine I could perform this action, which you call a "revert", "without controversy". That is an abysmally bad joke.—DCGeist (talk) 23:59, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Stay on topic. Radiopathy •talk• 00:06, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

This is the topic—tightening the language of the guideline so your ludicrous interpretation of it is even more clearly deprecated than it currently is. As long as you promulgate the interpretation you've just reiterated, it remains at the heart of the topic.—DCGeist (talk) 00:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Address the topic and keep the personal attacks out. Radiopathy •talk• 00:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

No personal attack there at all. Love the sinner, hate the sin. I love you, Radiopathy.

Now why don't you address the topic. I have offered a scenario that would be the logical and entirely plausible outcome of your interpretation of WP:RETAIN. Do you support that outcome? Do you really support everyone going around Wikipedia "ambitiously" "looking through the history" of articles with styles they'd like to change, to see if they can find an excuse to do so? Your answers to these questions are central to evaluating the need to revise the language of RETAIN.—DCGeist (talk) 00:52, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

(outdent) How many more absurd scenarios do we have to endure before you admit what "first major contributor" and "the whole article should continue to conform to that variety" mean? The majority of editors posting here understand WP:RETAIN, even though they may not want to delve into the article's history. What needs to be clarified is that folks like your buddy Kal can't just come along and edit-war in favor of the variety with which they feel most comfortable. Radiopathy •talk• 01:22, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

As many absurd scenarios as you intend to create, I suppose. Please specify what article you have in mind where DocKino "came along" and started an "edit war" in favor of a certain ENGVAR variety. I see where you "came along" and did that on Sex Pistols, providing clear and convincing evidence that you do not understand RETAIN.—DCGeist (talk) 02:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

• The occasions on which the current RETAIN practice is trumped are when the wrong variety is used in an article that has a clear relationship with one ancestral English-speaking country. Tony (talk) 01:28, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I think we're going to have to ditch the "first major contributor" rule on this one. Articles can change over time and FMC can be a good tiebreaker, but in this case we're not trying to stop people who make contributions that just happen to have the wrong S or Z in them; we're trying to stop people who categorically change Ss and Zs specifically. We might have to come out and say "don't do that, not even if the FMC did." Darkfrog24 (talk) 10:03, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think Roo editors will insist on changing zeds to esses in Roo-related articles. So will New Zealanders. We pushed the es first (Australian Government Publishing Manual, 1974); it's so much easier not to have to pore over and memorise long lists of ise and ize words, a burden suffered by North American children, not to mention non-natives in those parts of the Empire. We like our esses.

Much of the (ultimately racist) reason we privilege topics related to ancestral anglophone countries is that it keeps the peace. Under the circumstances, it's hard to imagine a better system. And let's be frank about one of the key roles of the MoS: to minimise edit-warring. Engvar was the child of appalling, silly edit-warring many years ago. But above all of this, I can't work out why the existing, long-established engvar rules, combined with the "principle" of stability, are failing. Tony (talk) 10:14, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

• Retain It is a simple rule. Otherwise we have to decide how long is long for a spelling to be stable. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:37, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
• Retain First major contributor is only a tiebreaker in a very special case (when we can't figure out what the established style is, and there was a first major contribution distinguished by nationality). We could try taking that sentence out and see if edit wars decrease. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:33, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. You don't amputate an arm to see if an itch goes away. Radiopathy •talk• 02:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

What PMAnderson observes, correctly, is that the "first major contributor" clause is not an arm, but just a little pinkie finger. However, when that pinkie is being used to pull the trigger on a bazooka, something needs to be done. Perhaps not amputation, but swaddling so it can't be used for such mischief.—DCGeist (talk) 02:22, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

...or used correctly, much to the consternation of some Wikipedia editors. Radiopathy •talk• 02:34, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

If you ever learn when and how to use it correctly—and when to understand where it doesn't apply—I'll send you a big ol' candy bar. So far, you haven't earned an Altoid.—DCGeist (talk) 03:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

If you do remove the "first major contributor" clause, it should remain consistent with the rest of [[MOS:]] and MOS:NUM, each of which use that phrase several times, in addition to threats like "Users who focus in a disruptive way on an issue or subject may be banned from editing with respect to that issue or subject." Art LaPella (talk) 02:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

RETAIN: Perfecting the wording

The previous subsection shows a general desire to retain RETAIN rather than scrap it, coupled with a mounting awareness that we really ought to tighten its wording to prevent abuse. It will facilitate our further cogitations if someone will now propose the new text. Who would like to start the ball rolling? PL290 (talk) 08:47, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I was going to make a suggestion when I read Wikipedia:Engvar#National_varieties_of_English. This seems to be exactly what I was going to suggest, that in the absence of a strong national connection the first identified style should be used. I suggest that all we need do here is add a link to the 'Engvar' section. If any further clarification is required, it should be done there. Martin Hogbin (talk) 09:22, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

• WTF?? I don't see much of a consensus to change WP:RETAIN in an way whatsoever. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 12:16, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I was not proposing any change. What is on this page is a summary of Wikipedia:Engvar#National_varieties_of_English. That page just gives more detail on how FMC should be determined when this is not clear. I do not propose any change to the 'Engvar' page either.

My point was that we already have a well-defined rule that is summarised on this page. I was just suggesting a link and pointing out that one thing we absolutely do not want is two different rules, one here and one elsewhere. In other words if there was a consensus to change, it should not be done here. However, there is no such consensus. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

My comment was directed at the person who initiated this sub-section. I regret you misconstrued it was in response to you. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 13:36, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

My post was a response to PL290. It was essentially saying that we do not need to tighten the the existing wording because we already have more detail in 'Engvar'. So it looks like we agree. Maybe also PL290. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:56, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Ohconfucius, the purpose of the discussion is to work together and arrive at a consensus, and that consensus may indeed produce a change in the wording. Three possibilities were suggested by the RfC: scrap, revise, or keep as is. Virtually all responses state a preference to retain rather than scrap, but stop short of "keep as is"; moreover, a growing number of editors are expressing—in strong and unequivocal terms and in several different subsections here—their disapproval of your interpretation of the existing wording, and the consequent disruption to the encyclopedia. This makes it likely that a consensus will be possible concerning a wording change. It is only to be expected that both you and Radiopathy may currently be opposed to such a possibility, and may perhaps wish to continue the editing practice that sparked this discussion; but that is not a foregone conclusion. I hope you will continue to give consideration to the underlying principles and try to find common ground with what others are saying here.

I propose the following additional paragraph after the existing text in WP:RETAIN:

The purpose of this guideline is to resolve disputes when settling on a variety, not to forbid evolution. Use common sense when applying it. For instance, if an article has predominantly exhibited one variety for 30 days with no dispute, do not seek to change it to another variety without first seeking consensus: whatever happened in the more distant past is irrelevant.

PL290 (talk) 18:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

• Opposed - totally. This is not what this discussion has said at all. Are you actually hoping that no one is paying attention and will blindly !vote for what ever you propose? Radiopathy •talk• 18:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Other than yourself, DocKino and DC, who objects to my "interpretation"?It's interesting how, all through this discussion, you've been able to read things into peoples' statements that aren't there. Radiopathy •talk• 19:00, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

It's cute how you put "interpretation" in quotes, as if you're channeling the will of God. It seems to me that JohnFromPinckney, DarkFrog24, A. di M., and PMAnderson also object to your willful misinterpretation and violation of RETAIN.—DCGeist (talk) 19:10, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support: Unfortunately, this appears to be necessary to curtail the rampant misbehavior we've seen of late.—DCGeist (talk) 19:10, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

By 'misbehaviour' do you mean application of the current policy?

• No, Martin. By "misbehavior" I mean the well-documented violations of our current policy, such as those committed by Radiopathy on Sex Pistols and The Beatles and OhConfucius on United Nations.—DCGeist (talk) 20:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I see no violations by those editors. The MOS currently states [my bold], When an article has evolved sufficiently for it to be clear which variety it employs, the whole article should continue to conform to that variety, unless there are reasons for changing it based on strong national ties to the topic. There are obviously strong British ties to the first two topics. Whatever you may think 'ise' is far more common in the UK. What possible rational reason can anyone have for wanting 'ize'? Trying to change the MOS to just to get 'ize' in those articles is absurd, the clear consensus above is 'retain'. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:30, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Well no, it's more complicated than that. Even OhConfucius agrees that "-ize" is British English. Art LaPella (talk) 22:35, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

We all know that ize is a possible alternative spelling but it is generally regarded as an Americanism. This is just what OhConfucius says. It seems logical to me for the native US English speakers to tell us what US English is and for the native UK English speakers to decide what Brit English is. We do not need reliable sources to speak or spell our language any more that you do to speak and spell yours. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:19, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec) In addition, copious evidence has been provided that while presently more common, -ise is not "far more" common in the UK. If you wish to see British -ize spelling eliminated from Wikipedia, then attempt to make that happen straightforwardly. For now, we regard both -ize and -ise as equally legitimate forms of British English, just as they are in the real world. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (spelling)#British English with Oxford Spelling (-ize) for just some of the many organizations and publications that use British English with -ize.—DCGeist (talk) 22:39, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Please, let the Brits tell you what Brit English is and you can tell us what American English is. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:19, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I do. Many Brits prefer -ise. Many other Brits prefer -ize. Many are perfectly comfortable with both. Are you suggesting that PL290 is not British? Are you suggesting that the Oxford English Dictionary is not British? Are you suggesting that the Times Literary Supplement is not British? If you do not respect the many British citizens, organizations and publications that favor or are comfortable with -ize, then you should be honest about that and seek to eliminate its use on Wikipedia.—DCGeist (talk) 23:38, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

A few do but not many. The majority of Brits use ise. I know that the OED and a few other publications use or recommend ize. It may even be more logical in some cases but the fact is that it is not what most Brits use and it is widely regarded as an Americanism. We have enough problems with national varieties of English. Insisting that we use Oxford Spelling in a Brit article would be like me insisting that an article should be written in a Southern US dialect. Leaving the article in a state that will appear to many people to me a mixture of US and UK spelling is a recipe for endless argument. The two articles in question obviously have strong Brit ties; let us have them in standard British English so that they can be truly stable. What possible reason can there be for pushing OS? Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:18, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure it's "a few but not many"? On the British National Corpus, excluding the "spoken" category, there are 5881 occurrences of organization and 8056 of organisation, 2954 of recognized and 5041 of recognised, 2770 of organizations and 4808 of organisations, 2617 of realized and 4629 of realised, 2193 of organized and 3805 of organised, etc. In all cases the frequencies are within a factor of 2 of each other. Implying that a word is not "standard British English" because another word is 1.7 times as common would exclude lots of words with more common perfect synonyms. (By comparison, someone is 5.7 times more common than somebody in the same sections of the same corpus and I haven't heard anyone implying that somebody is not standard British English.) A. di M. (talk) 09:28, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Let me put it in a more pragmatic way. Most Brits (but not all) will see -ize as an Americanism and will correct it to -ise in an article that uses British English, very few Brits would change -ise. The odd American may change -ise to -ize in good faith believing that it is a misspelling but will be likely to accept -ise once it is pointed out that this is BrE. Promoting OxE is simply confusing to everyone. The one thing we do not need in WP is yet another, essentially manufactured, version of English. It use is virtually certain to result in endless edit wars. The only thing that puzzles me is the motive behind it proponents. Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:58, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• I have examined quite a body of British articles minutely and manually, and can attest to the existence of a very real problem on a practical level when aligning text to 'British English'. When looking at early, non-stub versions to apply the FMC rule, it can be quite difficult to determine whether an z-word has been inserted by an editor as an Americanizm or as a deliberate exercise in Oxford English. Whilst there may be other clues within the same edit such as other British or non-British spellings employed, these clues can often be few and far between. In general, most Brits accept that the s-form words are preferred. Nevertheless, I have only found a very small number of pockets, such as for 'Sex Pistols', where alignment to s-words seems to create a problem. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 07:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose For two reasons. Firstly this is not the place to propose such a change, as I have already pointed out we have WP:Engvar where the subject is explained in more detail, secondly there is a clear consensus above to Retain the existing policy. Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:02, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

• You seem to be confused about more than just the word "misbehavior". For the second time you have suggested that WP:Engvar provides "more detail". But the fact is we are discussing ENGVAR. RETAIN is a subsection of ENGVAR. It is precisely ENGVAR that has been disrupted by bizarre and apparently self-serving misinterpretations of RETAIN. There is no other place to have this discussion. RETAIN is part of ENGVAR, and ENGVAR is part of the main MOS page, for which this is the discussion page. All clear?—DCGeist (talk) 20:48, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Appologies, you are quite right about Engvar. I am an idiot. I navigated to that section by some means that made me think it was a different article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:17, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose --JimWae (talk) 21:48, 15 August 2010 (UTC) Articles that have had a spelling or date style of a certain style for 5 or 6 years since inception should not get a new presumed format established just because they were quietly changed without edit summary more than 30 days ago. People should not be encouraged to think all they need do to change the style is hide the change among other changes & wait 30 days.

• I see no evidence that anything like what you're describing has taken place. You're suggesting that people have willfully and surreptitiously changed articles' well-established styles, "quietly" "hiding" their nefarious alterations? Show us some examples, please.

• What we do have evidence of is Radiopathy and OhConfucius dropping into well-established, even Featured articles where they have been only minimally involved, if at all, and summarily changing the style without discussion, then ex post facto conjuring up a perverse "first significant contributor" rationale for their actions.

And quite rightly too. That is how we spell over here. Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:19, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

• As a counterexample, I offer my recent, very enjoyable collaboration with Sarastro1 who successfully nominated the article on English cricketer Wally Hammond for Featured Article status. When I joined work on the article during the FAC process, it was clear that the predominant style of the article was -ise. As a result of the FAC process, I am now the number 2 contributor to the article by edit count (that is, far more involved than Radiopathy and OhConfucius were with the articles whose styles they summarily changed). Did I summarily change the style to -ize because I might prefer it or find it easier to work with? No. Of course not. Did I entertain for even an instant investigating the possibility that Sarastro1 might in the course of his superb work on Wally Hammond have changed a couple early -izes to agree with his preferred -ise? No. Of course not. Did I "ambitiously" go through the article history to see if I could make a claim that the "first significant contributor" used -ize, so I could "revert" the article to that style? No. Of course not. What an outrageous idea. But that is exactly the sort of attitude Radiopathy and OhConfucius have adopted, and the sort of perverse interpretation of RETAIN they continue to advocate.—DCGeist (talk) 22:39, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

• I can show several examples, but there is no need. The policy should not allow - nor encourage - people to target articles with this purpose. If someone changes a style "quietly" with no discussion and no edit-summary that notifies anyone of the change, even if it has stood unnoticed for months, the previous history of the article, including the first disambiguating contribution, should still be relevant to determining the future style of the article. If the change has stood for 4 years, that is another matter, but the onus should not be on the editors to check every article for style changes every 30 days. --JimWae (talk) 22:58, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

• You say you "can show several examples", but you won't. So we remain where we were: there is no evidence that anyone is "targeting" articles to surreptitiously change their style. The primary purpose of RETAIN is to minimize edit warring over equally appropriate varieties of English: e.g., -ize or -ise in an article on a British topic, Roo or Yank in an article on an Australian-American topic. The perverse interpretations of RETAIN we have seen argued for recently turn that purpose on its head. The phrasing of RETAIN should be adjusted to make absolutely clear that the "first major contributor" clause is a tiebreaker used for an article without a well-established style to resolve a discussion process that has not resulted in a consensus, rather than an excuse to summarily alter styles to suit one's personal preferences.—DCGeist (talk) 23:14, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

• We do not need evidence of abuse - which I can indeed easily show - to see that abuse is possible. The policy needs to be worded so that abuse is discouraged - not encouraged. Anyway, doesn't strong national ties apply to that article? Oh, I see strong national ties might not settle -ize or -ise in the UK, but a 30 day time-frame encourages abuse. Check the history of Canada Day, Victoria Day, and Vancouver if you wish to find examples of hidden, uncommented-upon style changes. People should not think that because they have made significant changes to an article, that they then have any ownership or privilege of changing an article's style --JimWae (talk) 23:18, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) We see examples all the time of people "correcting" UK spelling aside from the -ise suffix: [1], [2], [3] (I love the hidden note on that one!) and more of the same, [4]. They do not always leave edit summaries, particularly the IPs. As you can see, articles do drift from their established varieties, mostly through ignorance. WP:RETAIN specifically applies to cases like these; it's not reasonable to expect that an article with strong national ties to a subject should be forced to stay in its "evolved" state, but this is exactly what a few editors in this discussion would like to mandate. If the change has stood for four years, like JimWae suggests above, no, of course an editor would not be considered disruptive for not changing the style, but any editor who is so motivated can check the article history and revert at will without controversy or ridiculous weeks-long discussions. Radiopathy •talk• 23:31, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

• Strong national ties fail to resolve not only -ize/-ise but also articles with strong national ties to more than one country, e.g., Australia – United States relations. By the way, if you can "easily" show evidence of abuse, why don't you? I believe it would be relevant. Presumably, so do you or you wouldn't keep mentioning it.

• As for the appropriate timeframe, I wouldn't mind if it was somewhat longer. Three months? Six? That's more than enough time for a predominant style to qualify as "established", without inviting this mystery "abuse".—DCGeist (talk) 23:38, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

(outdent)"Established" has one definition in this context, and the one you're applying isn't it. Radiopathy •talk• 23:44, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

It appears you believe "established" to mean the style that you prefer, Radiopathy. Is that not correct? Pray tell us, how do you define "established"? More to the point, how do you recognize that an article has a predominant style that you should not summarily change without discussion and consensus? In the case of Wally Hammond, I recognized that it had an established style by reading the article. What's your magic trick?—DCGeist (talk) 00:20, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

It's been an hour since DC posted this, and none of our three "established" editors have changed it to -ize yet! Congratulations! Radiopathy •talk• 00:46, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Can't answer the crucial question, can you? I determined that the style of Wally Hammond was not to be messed with because I (a) read the article and (b) saw it was clearly well tended to by a conscientious writer/editor. Please telll us exactly how you determined on July 24 to mess with the predominant style of the Featured Article Sex Pistols, an article where you had previously made a grand total of three edits, without warning or discussion.—DCGeist (talk) 01:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

You're saying that the variety was established the moment you clicked the link to go to the article - that it was debatable until you arrived and issued your official proclamation. You're also saying that if there had been even one instance of -ize that you would immediately changed every instance of -ise to -ize, per WP:COMMONALITY, for article stability, per MoS. Radiopathy •talk• 01:23, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I have obviously made no such statements. You're simply conjuring fantasies about my position now. I have repeatedly made clear that I respect -ise where it is the predominant style. I simply observe the fact that in the Featured Article Sex Pistols—which recently appeared on our Main Page—among words outside of quotes and source names, there were 15 instances of -ize and 5 of -ise, immediately before your "ambitious" July 24 intervention. I think everyone of good faith can recognize that this is an evolved article with a definite predominant style.

You simply can't answer a straightforward question, can you? When you summarily changed the style of the Featured Article Sex Pistols on July 24 to -ise without warning or discussion—your fourth-ever edit on an article with well over 1,000 edits—how did you determine that was an appropriate course of action?—DCGeist (talk) 02:13, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Hmm. I think that question needs to anticipate Radiopathy's oft-repeated (though surely debatable) answer: the first major contributor. Art LaPella (talk) 02:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, but there's no evidence at all that Radiopathy ever even bothered to do that perverse "research". He makes no mention of "first major contributor" in his edit summary for the first July 24 intervention; makes no mention of "first major contributor" in his follow-up, where he chooses to edit war; makes no mention of it in his first series of posts to this l-o-n-g master thread. Even if he had established the "first major contributor"'s style, which he obviously did not, that would not excuse his failure to go to Talk and discuss the style of an evolved, Featured Article.—DCGeist (talk) 03:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• I had previously offered proof. I'm sorry that it does not suit DCGeist. Just because he does not like or agree with it does not make it invalid. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 03:10, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that's what DCGeist said. Yes, there was an edit in 2003, but was that Radiopathy's reason at the time, or was that justification discovered 9 days after the fact? Art LaPella (talk) 05:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, ALP. That is obviously what I said. And since OhConfucius has graced us with his presence, let's ask him: Would he have approved if I went hunting seven years back in Wally Hammond's history for an -ize? Would he approve of me going on such an -ize hunt on any article where -ise currently predominates?—DCGeist (talk) 06:14, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• If there is no notification of the change of style, then the edit should not establish a new default/presumed style - no matter how long it has been in place. We should not in any way reward "secretive" changes to the style. If the editor announced it in discussion, that is another matter --JimWae (talk) 23:47, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

• OPPOSE One of the things I do when gnoming is to align dates to a single format; I often revisit an article I have previously treated as part of routine maintenance. When I do, I often find date formats have 'evolved', as new contributors do not always pay due attention to such matters of style, probably believing the content itself to be more important. Adopting a unified date format can nowadays be done with minimal controversy, although this has not always been the case. It was over just such a dispute that I became a supporter of the First major contributor rule, which I previously opposed.

  We expect articles to evolve, and for subsequent arrivals to continually add content. In the absence of routine maintenance, preferably by bots because of the gargantuan task at hand, it would be incorrect and unreasonable to consider that an 'evolved' article has assumed "an established style" regardless of the duration, let alone one as short as 30 days as is proposed. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 02:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• The position you state in your final sentence effectively nullifies the lede clause of RETAIN: "When an article has evolved sufficiently for it to be clear which variety it employs, the whole article should continue to conform to that variety..." Care to back that up with an RFC to determine if there's consensus to eliminate that clause?

• By the way, we're still waiting for you to explain how your placement of a "British" (non-Oxford) English template on the United Nations article page was justified by another party's prior placement of an Oxford English template on the article's Talk page. Or are you ready to admit that was a blunder you'll be careful not to repeat?—DCGeist (talk) 03:02, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I already explained why I did what I did, so please stop hounding me. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 03:13, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

OhConfucius, stop pretending you've offered an explanation that you have not. The link you supply "explains" that there was already an Oxford English template on the United Nations Talk page. But you inserted a "British" (non-Oxford) English template on the article page. Despite repeated requests, you have never explained your justification for such an action. It's a pity you feel hounded. Maybe you feel hounded because of the fact that you know there's no excuse for your action. Maybe you feel hounded because of the fact that you got busted for misbehavior you thought you could get away with. You have been given multiple opportunities to offer an honest explanation and/or apologize. Instead you want to pretend that you didn't do to United Nations what you obviously did do. We must therefore conclude that you are acting in bad faith in this matter.

And...still wondering how you decided you can blithely ignore the lede clause of RETAIN. Not that the view of someone acting in bad faith carries much weight.—DCGeist (talk) 06:14, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oh, now I see why you have been upset! Yes, I admit it was a cock-up... Note that the first version, which strangely doesn't look like a first version, was ambiguous as it had both s-words and z-words; there were no z-words were changed by me - just a minor tagging error, so I think the argument is pretty moot. I was in two minds about not responding, as there has been enough accusations of bad faith on my part from your keyboard. If it would genuinely serve to clear the air, I would indeed apologise. However, I have the sneaking suspicion that any apology I would have to offer would just seal my "guilt", as far as some of the presently assembled are concerned. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 08:58, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support the idea but 30 days can be too short for articles which aren't edited very often. It could say "30 days or 100 edits, whichever is longer". A. di M. (talk) 09:00, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

This is just plain crazy. No system is perfect and there will always be disagreements but you want to change a simple system of first identifiable style to one that requires n day or edit count and that is open to gaming by people making changing slowly or by groups of editors on some kind of mission. It really does not matter that much, all I object to is silly argument about the subject like this one. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:05, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Section break: brief summaries please?

• The sections above are now HUGE. I wonder whether editors who propose to change the guidance could briefly summarise their argument and propose new wording. I cannot see one good reason for changing the existing text; but I'm open to reasonable arguments. My savage kangaroos (fed on beef, trained to maul, and presently drunk on Coopers Ale) are ready and waiting. Tony (talk) 09:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Please see the RfC that has now been initiated on this page, asking the wider community to consider what Wikipedia principle RETAIN actually serves, and whether it should be kept as it is, revised, or simply scrapped. PL290 (talk) 10:44, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Proclamation by the Queen

In breaking news, Buckingham Palace has issued a diplomatic note to the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House in Washington DC instructing that the American colonies, and whatever territories they have overrun, shall henceforth use only the "s" form of -ise and its variants. In Ottawa, the Canadian Governor-General has passed on a similar instruction to the Prime Minister, Mr Harper.

According to the BBC and CNN, however, the move is not entirely one-way. Apparently an olive branch has been offered to the North Americans: the UK and the rest of the Commonwealth may be forced to adopt the American single "l" in such words as traveling and modeling ("much more logical", Her Majesty was heard to utter under her breath). Tony (talk) 14:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

The prins ov Waelz sujests wee konsidder the use ov Anglik speling jest az soon az hee lernz how to spel it. [5] Michael Glass (talk) 15:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Ðæt's too bæd... Kæn aye still kantinnyoo to yooz -ize in British Inglish? A. di M. (formerly Army1987) (talk) 16:01, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry no: the "ise" have it. Public burning of all foul Oxford material begins at dawn. PL290 (talk) 16:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

You guys are gonna have to burn quite a lot of stuff.[6] A. di M. (formerly Army1987) (talk) 19:19, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

"Your session has expired." They seem to have accepted their fate. Waltham, The Duke of 19:58, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Editors may be interested in User:Angr/Unified English Spelling. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:04, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Missing the point

Anyone who thinks that this is an argument about which is the 'correct' version of English has completely missed the point. There is no correct version, just various national and regional styles. This has be recognised by WP long ago.

What is needed is a simple, definitive and non-partisan way of determining in which style subject-neutral articles should be written. The first contributor method does just this. Other methods, such as consensus, stability, most prolific editor, greatest contributor are all prone to endless argument. It does not really matter that much. Let us just have a simple rule and stick to it. Martin Hogbin (talk) 11:31, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

You are dead wrong, Martin. There absolutely is such a thing as correct English, for all that what is and isn't correct can change with time and region, and Wikipedia has an obligation to provide articles written in correct English. With regard to this particular issue, however, both -ize and -ise are correct British English. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:23, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree: the "first major contributor" guideline has saved much edit-warring. That is one of the major goals of a MoS. Tony (talk) 11:55, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Right, but once the article has drifted away from the FMC's dialect/style (as they sometimes do, with nobody noticing), and then stabilized at some other clearly established style, going back to look at the FMC's work is counter-productive and leads to more edit-warring. If the article's drifted but a new style has not become dominant, then, yes, research and adjustment to the FMC's style is appropriate.

I do not see how this can be at all difficult for reasonable adults to understand. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 12:29, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Who decides what is stabilized? Does this mean one week, month, year without change? What is clearly established? All one style, 90%, 51%? What if one style is stable for a year, then another for 6 months, then the first for one month? This allows too much gaming and argument.

We want a simple system that gives one clear answer. Just put it back to the FMC's dialect/style and be done. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:08, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Once again, see Talk:Sharon Johnston. No proposed system gives one clear answer. I don't have a better idea; I'm just deflating unrealistic expectations. Any system requires that editors do a better job of working together. Art LaPella (talk) 21:41, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

No system is infallible but one based on the FMC has less chance of disagreement and edit warring that one based on other less well defined features. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:31, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

"Stabilized" is what we as reasonable, adult editors recognize it as. "Clearly established" is obviously not 51%, if you are reasonable, while 90% and 100% obviously are. No, I don't have some numeric bright-line limit where we can count the, what? and then calculate a percentage, yielding a OK-to-modify/don't-touch-it answer; all I have is my sense of reason. And trust in my fellow editors.

If, as your last question stipulates, an article "has been stable for one month", then it doesn't bloody matter what happened before. We're building an encyclopedia, not operating a Museum of Historical Edits. We're collaborative editors on an ambitious, never-finished, publicly visibly project, not tag-team wrestlers on a to-the-death cage match telecast where drama brings in advertising revenue. The Manual of Style can only provide guidlines for reasonable people to follow. It is beyond its scope to dictate behavior, or to cover again what WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:ETIQ, etc., have already covered.

Maybe I have to go take a closer look at the definition of "reasonable adults", instead. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 22:30, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm late to this discussion and haven't had the time to absorb all of the above (!). I'm an American. When I've seen "organise" corrected to "organize," I have been checking the article. If it seemed like a preponderance of words were British spelling, I have been labeling it "British" on the discussion page to avoid further changes. And then changed it back. Occasionally the reverse (to American), but not often. On one occasion, I had to go back to the originator of the article, who is no longer active. He was from Australia, so I labeled it accordingly.

One of my problems is that I cannot easily spell just anything in these articles cause my editor indicates "wrong" for the British variant. But not many words. No big deal.

A lot of articles ownership makes sense. Where it doesn't, is when "Istanbul" is British and "Greater Istanbul" is American or New Zealand or some such! But I can live with that. Even though -ize is allowable in British, it is not their first choice. We want to encourage (and not discourage) British editors. Let's live with it. Student7 (talk) 11:36, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Use of quotation marks in block quotes

The manual makes it clear that one should not include quotations marks in a block quotation. MOS:QUOTE "Do not enclose block quotations in quotation marks".

I've noticed quite a number of articles not following this rule, and have made some changes. However, before doing any more, I wanted to make sure I was on solid ground. The rules seem clear enough, but I noticed the discussion of Italics has an example of a block quote with quotation marks. (See the subsection Italics within quotations) One possibility is that the example sentence should be viewed as an inline quotation, but was displayed as a block quote for visual ease. However, that construction isn't used in earlier examples, and is quite confusing. I would like to remove the quotation marks from the example (or make it an inline example), but I'd like some feedback first in case I am missing something.--SPhilbrickT 17:35, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

No, I think you've got it right. As to the discussion of Italics you cite, by my reading that's not intended to be a block quote per se (less than a line in length!). I think it's just an example that's indented to make it clear (cf the tabular examples that follow it). PL290 (talk) 17:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

And it definitely needs its quotation marks, or it loses its sense as an example.—DCGeist (talk) 17:53, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

As the green makes clear, they're part of the material being quoted. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:36, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

For those who can detect the green, or recognize that a different typeface is being used to indicate the example. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 06:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I was going a different direction: as long as some of us can see it, authorial intent to quote the marks is clear. When Wikipedia means to quote punctuation, it should do so. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:08, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

2000s vs 21st century

Where is it dicussed that 2000s, for example, is ambiguous and refers more to the 10 years years 2000 thru 2009 and not to the entire 100 years of the 21st century? I know that the disambig page on 2000s says this but nothing in MOS can I find a recommendation on how we should be writing articles to assure correct meaning. Hmains (talk) 21:55, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:CENTURY doesn't say it can mean 2000 to 2009, but it does say "21st century" is preferred. Art LaPella (talk) 22:16, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

There is some related information in the discussion Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 December 24#Six days left and I'm still uncomfortable calling them the "ohs", "aughts" or "noughties". How about you?. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:44, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Dashes and hyphens

Do we really need to distinguish between minus signs(−), em dashes(—), en dashes (–), and hyphens (-)?

I appreciate that we want to achieve a good standard of presentation but these distinctions seem somewhat archaic to me. What proportion of editors know how to use them correctly and how to create them? There is little chance of confusion if one character is replaced by another. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:20, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Our distinctions are not entirely archaic, and there are some good reasons to distinguish between them. But our list of distinctions is based on the preferences of a few editors, not on English practice nor on reliable sources. It would be preferable to leave such matters to Sprachgefuehl, and link to the articles on the subject. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:12, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Before Wikipedia, my Sprachgefuehl (assuming that means nothing more than the literal translation "language feeling") was that any line will do. Now my software dutifully changes one kind of line to another, mainly just because wars like the Oxford spelling war above can be minimized if we can agree on a system. Art LaPella (talk) 17:14, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

On the chance that you didn't see the FAQ on this topic, here is is.

The use of the full range of these glyphs is normal in typeset English. Also, using different glyphs for different purposes improves readability. Finally, the sole use of hyphens in articles would make certain constructions ambiguous (for example, an em dash meant to set off a short bit of text from the surrounding text could be confused with a compound adjective) or illegible (for example, a minus sign in a superscript is legible, but some fonts render hyphens so small that they become hard to read). The use of hyphens to approximate other glyphs was due to the mechanical limitations of the typewriter (en and em dashes were not present on typewriter keyboards).

I'm also not sure what makes you think that these glyphs are "archaic". Pick up any professionally published book or magazine in English and you will see these used. Styles differ, but you will not find a professionally published work that uses hyphens in place of dashes and minus signs. You could probably find DTP works that do so—but only because the author didn't know the difference, or thought typewriter conventions were still relevant today. You can also find plenty of experts that will support this, such as typographer Ilene Strizver (see "Type Crime #5"). Hope that helps. --Airborne84 (talk) 20:39, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

"[A]ny professionally published book or magazine"? Not exactly. Handy counterexamples include White Pass & Yukon Route (ISBN 1-886462-14-3), and Journal of the American Historical Society of Germans from Russia. You'll have to take my word for it that the dashes and hyphens look alike (well, at least once in the former publication). But if you look at the main British Broadcasting Corporation webpage, it now says "Pakistan's PM Yusuf Raza Gilani says 20 million people have been affected by flooding - a much higher figure than UN estimates." You didn't say "webpage", but I would think the BBC is professional enough. Art LaPella (talk) 00:15, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and if Ilene Strizver's "Type Crimes" are authoritative, see "Type Crime #1", and then reverse WP:PUNC's condemnation of curly quotes to say that curly quotes are required! Art LaPella (talk) 00:25, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

So what is the reason for using these different glyphs? I really do not believe that there is any improvement in readability. Are you really telling me that −2 is easier to read than -2, or that sub–zero is easier (or harder) to read than sub-zero? Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:57, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

One answer to that can be found at the FAQ. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:44, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

The use of the full range of these glyphs is normal in typeset English. Also, using different glyphs for different purposes improves readability. Finally, the sole use of hyphens in articles would make certain constructions ambiguous (for example, an em dash meant to set off a short bit of text from the surrounding text could be confused with a compound adjective) or illegible (for example, a minus sign in a superscript is legible, but some fonts render hyphens so small that they become hard to read). The use of hyphens to approximate other glyphs was due to the mechanical limitations of the typewriter (en and em dashes were not present on typewriter keyboards).

Well, I can see not putting all that in the guidelines, especially since parts of it are bad advice, and parts of it only apply to very special circumstances.

This could be better put something like:

• If you use a dash as punctuation to separate text, either surround it by spaces or use an actual em-dash [instructions]
• If you use a minus-sign in a superscript, use an actual minus-sign [instructions] or use <math>.. Some browsers do not render hyphens large enough in such circumstances.

and so on. That would make sense - and be usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:59, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

We are, of course, answering and perhaps confusing 2 different questions: 1. Should we have WP:DASH at all? The FAQ does address that question, and Martin Hogbin's answer only addresses the first sentence of that FAQ. And 2. Should we combine that FAQ into WP:DASH? Art LaPella (talk) 01:41, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

An interesting discussion, but I'm not sure what the utility is.

• Art, you have illustrated that "the only rule for which there are no exception is that there are some rules for which there are." Agreed. However, it seems that you are suggesting that because there are extreme cases, that they should be made the rule. Is that what you are suggesting? I suspect it's not, and you were just playing devil's advocate.
• I probably missed a long discussion thread on WP:DASH. In my opinion, it would be foolish to remove that section. Look in any major style guide in English—and in many other languages with latin-based alphabets—and you will see sections on dashes. They are part of the English language and editors here need to know how to use them correctly. Why would we remove a section that provides that information to editors?
• If someone has suggested that it should be removed because it is easier to just use hyphens, or that it is more readable, I'm afraid that I might have to resort to uncivil language that I almost never stoop to. That is borderline ludicrous. The reasons that I can imagine that might provoke that thought are (1) "I don't know how to properly use dashes and it's easier for me to not learn," or (2) "I'd rather not take the time to use dashes properly since it's easier for me to just hit the "hyphen" key for everything." I might be outvoted, but I would personally not underwrite this type of rationale.

Of course, perhaps I'm missing something. If someone can show me some reliable sources (reference grammars, typographers, grammarians, etc.) that say it would be fine to use hyphens in place of dashes, I might well change my mind. Or maybe a reliable source that says text is easier to read with hyphens in place of dashes. Or that dashes and minus signs are archaic. Or that there would be little chance of confusion if hyphens took over for all similar glyphs. Without some sources, we should consider what major style guides say on matters of style at Wikipedia—even if we choose to modify it somewhat. --Airborne84 (talk) 02:23, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I stand at your side, good Sir Knight, with my hand on the hilts of my sword, ready to draw my weapon to defend your flank in the battle that threatens the sanctity of correct punctuation. It is simply the case that dashes and hyphens are separate symbols; they have different names, generally have different appearances, and have quite different uses. That people don't know this, or don't know what the different uses are, doesn't mean we have to keep using hyphens for everything that goes kind of horizontal-like. The hyphen is okay to use in place of a dash when you are typing a message on a deserted island with no more modern equipment that a 1967 Smith-Corona. Okay, maybe the island has electricity, but no modern computers, which—surprise!—we all have here on WP. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 03:39, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

"Extreme cases"? I meant 3 counterexamples out of the first 10 or so publications I looked at. Support for dashes comes from style books, but not from universal practice. If we recognize that, then moving on ... Art LaPella (talk) 19:39, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Uh, hey, Airborne, hold still for a minute. I want to get a closer look at that sig line of yours. Hmm... well I think— Hey! — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 03:43, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Touché! —Airborne84 (talk) 03:58, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I have read the FAQ now; it is not very illuminating. I can understand people who get passionate about spelling or even punctuation in general, but fighting to the death over short horizontal lines is a step to far for me, even with the gallant JohnFromPinckney by my side.

There simply is no fundamental reason why different length lines are used in different circumstances. It seems to me that this is a reasonable time to stop fussing about things that really do not matter. So yes, (1) "I don't know how to properly use dashes and it's easier for me to not learn," and (2) "I'd rather not take the time to use dashes properly since it's easier for me to just hit the "hyphen" key for everything." [puts fingers in ears]. Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:34, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I suggest that you study typography for a while. Ozob (talk) 12:46, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Why would I want to do that? I am only interested in dashes. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:11, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Martin, if you would rather not use the correct dashes, that's your prerogative, though I would encourage you to at least make an attempt to learn since you're here (these exercises are very helpful). If it's taking the time to find the dashes in the Wiki interface that's the issue, I can sympathize with that (they're not exactly prominent). You might find User:GregU/dashes.js useful; it takes just a few seconds to run and I've found that false positive are few and far between. The matter remains however, that many do consider the dashes to be correct typography, and since the MediaWiki software distinguishes between them and a good number of editors do realize and appreciate their differences, we might as well encourage their use. It's preferable that you follow Wiki style, but if you don't, Jimbo is not going to descend down from his throne and ban you. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:56, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Typography is relevant in this discussion, but since dashes are also punctuation, that might make it more relevant to Martin Hogbin. I was just going to drop it, but there is a "fundamental reason" why different dashes are used. If you look at the evolution of punctuation over the centuries (and millennia), you can see that various punctuation marks were introduced to make the digestion of written material easier. Whatever their origin or reason, dashes are part of English punctuation now. The mechanical limitations of the typewriter didn't remove them. It just prevented some people from learning about them. Why not learn now? --Airborne84 (talk) 14:11, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Airborne, I have nothing against punctuation in general and I understand its purpose but you have still given no logical reason why we need four types of short horizontal line. It may have some historical significance but how does it help to make Wikipedia better. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:35, 15 August 2010 (UTC).

It makes us compliant with every style guide I have ever perused. It seems that you are not going to be swayed by any of the given arguments. I suggest you use whatever sort of dash you desire, but accept that your contribution may be corrected. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 17:49, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Swayed by what arguments? 'Everyone else does it' seems to be the only reason given. Regarding your suggestion I do just use a hyphen, because it is easy. Occasionally I have been 'corrected', which does not worry me in the least. The question is, why to we ask all editors of Wikipedia to distinguish between four types of short horizontal line? So far all I have heard is because that is the rule, it has always been done that way. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:05, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

An analogy might help bridge this gap: If we let entomologists rule the English language, we would be unable to say "Clean the bugs off my windshield" without first determining if the life forms belong to the order Hemiptera. According to them, any other use of the word "bug" is incorrect. Why? Well, it says so right here in my book of rules, and if that isn't good enough, here's another book of rules ... Having said that, the FAQ really does make some points Martin hasn't responded to beyond the first sentence. Art LaPella (talk) 19:57, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

That is not a good analogy, we are not talking about the classification of short horizontal lines into types, which seems somewhat pointless but at least harmless, we are talking about a policy which tells all editors to use these lines in a specified way. All I am asking is why? Why should the rules exist? What purpose do they serve? Have they any value in WP? Martin Hogbin (talk) 20:08, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Actually my analogy was supporting your position, so perhaps the others will understand how your "why" resembles "why won't you just clean the bugs off?" Art LaPella (talk) 21:02, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, that was not clear to me. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:04, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, the analogy compares Hempitera to hyphens, other bugs to dashes, book of rules to a manual of style, "incorrect" to "incorrect", and entomologists to style experts. Art LaPella (talk) 21:09, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Martin, you are aware that the MOS is just a guideline, right (but read WP:JUSTAGUIDELINE)? If you truly feel that MOSDASH inhibits your ability to improve the encyclopedia (however sensational a claim that may be), ignore it; nobody will block you, persecute you, or think less of you because of it. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're driving at. I don't see the harm to Wikipedia if we encourage correct typography and punctuation while the software allows us to differentiate between dashes. They obviously have some noticeable quality, or they wouldn't have been brought up so many times at WT:MOS, and indeed we wouldn't have guidelines about them. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:48, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. To continue Mr LaPella's analogy, the entomologists would be entitled to correct me every time I referred to the life form on the windshield as "bug", but I'd always have the choice to continue referring to it as such (at the risk of being corrected again). Waltham, The Duke of 23:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. Recommend close. The purpose of this talk page is to improve the article, not discuss why the mechanics of the English language might be strange, useless, or cumbersome. I think Martin is clear that she/he can use hyphens at will without repercussion. Martin, if you're truly interested in the whys of dashes as punctuation, feel free to start a post on my talk page. I'll be happy to discuss. I'm sure there are other editors that are "experts" here that can dig further into the history and mechanics of English if you'd like. I just don't think there's much more productive to be said—in reference to making changes to or improving the Wikipedia Manual of Style (since a consensus doesn't seem to be building for any changes). --Airborne84 (talk) 00:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

One of the valid subjects of discussion, however, is whether what this page recommends or requires has anything to do with the actual mechanics of the English language. WP:DASH has no sources; no links to anything with sources; and no evidence has been presented in its favor. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

That is quite right. This page makes quite onerous demands on editors, for which no one has yet given a good reason. However, it is not that important to me so I will leave you people to it. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:05, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

We have articles on dash and hyphen that explain the typographical differences, outline the use, discuss use in various style guides and give sources. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 17:01, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

And if WP:DASH referred inquiring editors to the articles, and left matters there, it would be an improvement. It doesn't; it links to subsections on how to input the marks, and not to the sections on usage; it then proceeds to add its own rules on usage, unfounded on sources or anything else. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:09, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

The article gives complicated instructions on how to use the various short horizontal lines without giving any reasons for the proposed usage. It is like some weird old custom or religion. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:20, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Right or wrong, the MoS doesn't cite references. I don't know why that is. I've made some edits on the WP:MoS (e.g. WP:MoS#Terminal Punctuation). For that one, I initially cited references that discussed terminal punctuation. After I realized that was not the norm on the MoS page, I deleted the inline citations. However the reason for that is a separate topic (perhaps worthy of discussion in another thread). If you'd like references that discuss the proper uses of dashes in the English language, let me know how many you want. One? Five? Three dozen? You want Web-based or print? "American" or 'British English' punctuation? Historical or current? I've done some research in similar areas. However, you can also do some research. There are plenty of reliable sources online if you don't have a lot of print style guides and reference grammars sitting around. For instance, Grammar Girl says this about dashes and hyphens:

And here's a very important rule about dashes: never, never, never use a hyphen in place of a dash. A hyphen is not a junior dash; it has its own completely separate use.[7]

But I can provide as many reliable sources as you'd like. If some references will help settle the matter for you, just tell me how many you want. I'm happy to help.

Of course, you can make the argument that all of these reliable sources are wrong, or that—regardless of the existence of dashes as punctuation in the English language—dashes should be replaced with hyphens. That's a topic worthy of discussion, just not on this talk page—IMO. --Airborne84 (talk) 18:35, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Grammar Girl is not likely to do justice to the complications here - or to the variance of actual English usage. But you can add more useful references to dash, which badly needs them. Nonetheless, even in its present state, it makes clear what MOS should have addressed: that authorities disagree.

What is the value of a MOS which does not acknowledge that? We are not here to refashion the English language. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree—on a couple of points. (1) The dash article needs references. I hadn't given the article much attention, but I will add that article to my "to check" list and add references as needed – and that I have available. (2) There is some disagreement and variance in style between American and British (or International) English. However, the disagreements are not over whether dashes should exist. Most disagreements are about what types of word pairs merit en dashes as opposed to hyphens and similar topics. And the fact that dashes are used differently in English around the world doesn't mean that "dashes" as a whole should just be converted to hyphens.

We could add more context in the manual of style about the differences between dashes. We'd just have to be careful about it expanding to the point where it makes the MoS cumbersome. At some point, the material is better in the main article. It could be difficult to determine by consensus where that point is. That's probably why the current, simple, information is in the MoS.

...sorry to be so very off-topic everyone, but I spend much of the time thinking about how the public is too busy playing RTS to care about the finer points of the language any more, and well, this gave me a bit of hope for the universe. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:20, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The BBC endorses the hyphen and says that a grammarian at Edinburgh University has "bigger grammatical fish to fry".

And most parts for the MOS were written very quickly, usually under a week, with no wider consultation. If this were an article, it would violate WP:NPOV --Philcha (talk) 17:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

"Finlo Rohrer" wrote the article, not "The BBC." I'm not sure how that relates to the discussion on dashes though. If you'd like, I'll be happy to agree that there are uses for hyphens—which seems to be what the article is suggesting. Cheers! --Airborne84 (talk) 18:09, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

True on both counts. However, the BBC home page presently says "Live - Europa League play-offs". Art LaPella (talk) 19:33, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Sure. There are also examples of hyphenated "ranges" on the webpage (instead of en-dashes). I'm not sure what that proves other than laziness on the part of the typist. I think a more relevant reference to illustrate the position of the BBC would be the BBC Style Guide , which makes use of dashes and hyphens throughout. --Airborne84 (talk) 22:56, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Why a FAQ?

Why does this page have - or need - a FAQ? Our guidelines, except for this one, are FAQs - that's what they exist for. If they need explanation or justifications, it's right there on the page, not tucked away invisibly in the look-alike boxes on top of the talk page. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:42, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

They represent topics that generate repeated threads on discussions that have been brought up many times before. The hope is that someone might get their answer there before opening another discussion thread on a topic that has been beaten like a dead horse. People could use the archives, but don't always take the time to do so. I don't know of any major drawback to having an FAQ section, so it shouldn't be an issue to keep it. --Airborne84 (talk) 02:29, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't feel that we need a FAQ (We could always just put edit-screen messages in contentious parts of the MoS), but some users feel strongly about it, and it doesn't seem to be causing any trouble. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:10, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree. FAQs in general seem to be a way for some editors to exert a degree of page ownership. Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:35, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

I think calling it a weapon to enforce ownership is going a bit far, but there are potential problems with it: a) it's just another MOS page for people to edit war on, and b) it's can be a narrower version of WP:PEREN, which is sometimes used as a bludgeon to stifle discussion. I've seen the edit wars, but nobody's used it to scare away editors questioning the MOS (which is a far worse offense in my opinion). There doesn't seem to be any harm in keeping it up here, though. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

FAQs are useful for articles, when they discuss editing issues. Since the FAQ at the top of this page discusses style issues, the content should be on the project page, either in the body or as an explanatory notes. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 16:01, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

This page's FAQ discusses editing this page. It doesn't discuss styling this page, except in the self-referential sense that the Manual of Style ought to obey the Manual of Style. Ozob (talk) 21:23, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps this will clarify Gadget's comment, and get him an answer: Unlike article FAQs, this FAQ contains the same sort of material as the guideline itself. Why is it not included in the guideline? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:14, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Septentrionalis, you bring up a valid point. Major style guides do sometimes elaborate on points that are confusing, or have undergone recent changes, for example. I personally don't have any issue with including the FAQ material in the MoS itself. However, I suspect that will have the effect of people complaining that too much is being added to the MoS, and that it's "too long already"—a recurring statement. If you could garner support through a consensus to add the FAQ material to the MoS main page, I'd be fine with removing the FAQ. The intent of the material is to prevent further unnecessary discussions over topics that have been beaten to death here. Where the explanatory material itself resides is not important. --Airborne84 (talk) 23:49, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is likely to raise the question whether further discussion is necessary. But the test for that is "does a consensus agree with the guidance?" and that can only be checked by puttint the guidance and its justification out there and seeing who agrees with it. If a consensus does, then the questions are genuinely settled; if not, then we should discuss - not, as has too often been done, revert-war. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:54, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, it is "out there". I guess at this point (since there are some that support the FAQ section's existence), the question is, is there a consensus to remove? I don't see the point of fighting to remove an FAQ section that arguably doesn't hinder anything; but, if you feel that strongly that it should be eradicated, feel free to pursue this. By the way, I removed the only sentence that seemed contentious to me—needing sourcing. "Also, using different glyphs for different purposes improves readability" (IRT dashes). This probably needs a reliable source to state here. The shouldn't be overly contentious or is sourced. --Airborne84 (talk) 00:42, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

No, the question is: is there opposition to a merge? Why should the reasoning for MOS's decrees be stuck in a page nobody will see unless their attention is drawn to it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:56, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I oppose a merge unless a consensus can first be built to integrate the material into the main article. If a consensus can be built, I'll happily support it. --Airborne84 (talk) 01:46, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Register#FAQ to understand why the FAQ exists.—Wavelength (talk) 01:58, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

It does not actually discuss the FAQ; but they are similar. Both conceal on a subpage the absence of actual consensus on the present language of MOS and the perhaps inadequate arguments on which the present text is based.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:09, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

It provides links to past discussions in which it was decided to start the FAQ.—Wavelength (talk) 15:16, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Which of that multitude of links? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:28, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Of the eight links listed, you could begin with the first one (Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 111#Designing a system for establishing and recording consensus decisions), in which Ozob said "The simplest solution I can think of is an FAQ."

—Wavelength (talk) 17:47, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Which is followed by an immediate objection; that's not consensus, merely another demonstration why this page is so widely ignored.

The first step towards making MOS actually useful and respected is to state its reasons, where they are supposed to be consensus, and to acknowledge where it is not consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:17, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

How do you define "consensus" in the context of decisions made by Wikipedia editors?

—Wavelength (talk) 18:44, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

In accordance with policy, a decision that takes account of all the legitimate concerns raised and which attempts as far as possible to achieve general agreement. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:55, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

How do you decide whether a particular concern is legitimate?

—Wavelength (talk) 19:26, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

By assuming good faith until proven otherwise, and by listening to the argument made for the concern. How else? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:09, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I oppose the merge for one reason: The FAQ makes assertions that ought to be sourced but aren't. For example, it claims, without references or evidence, that LQ is less prone to ambiguity and introduction of errors than other forms of punctuation. These statements do not belong in any part of the MoS unless reliable sources can be found for them. Even then, such information would be more appropriate to the Wikipedia article on quotation marks than it would be to the MoS itself. But all this is less about whether or not the information is presented in a FAQ and more about whether or not it's there at all. Darkfrog24 (talk) 22:41, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I could also support a campaign to remove unsourced assertions of fact and linguistic usage from MOS, but there wouldn't be much of it left. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:39, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Come on now. There's a difference between telling editors not to capitalize the names of the seasons and claiming that a given punctuation system causes specific problems X and Y. Sources at least exist for the first one. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Talk page templates

This has been marked as of the MOS again. Please have a look

ps what ever happened to the MOS bot? Gnevin (talk) 11:09, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

It announces at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 09:28, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

It use to do it here also. Can that be done again for MOS related stuff ? Gnevin (talk) 10:16, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

OK it doesn't necessarily have to be a part of the official "MoS" series, but it's certainly not obsolete and should not be marked "historical". -- œ^™ 17:08, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Mark as a guideline so Gnevin (talk) 09:05, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (superscripts and subscripts)

This has been as of the MOS again. Please have a look Gnevin (talk) 11:13, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Does content have to be interested/unique?

Here's an odd one. I told another editor that the information he was trying to insert was potentially the "same as every other similar article" and it should therefore be omitted because it was boring. He seemed to agree but challenged me to "prove" where the policy/guidelines say that anything has to be "unique or interesting." I haven't been able to find any reference! Any ideas? Student7 (talk) 22:02, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

This isn't really an MoS issue, but it is an interesting question. Usually, the idea of subject matter being uninteresting would fall under WP: Notability but if other articles that are almost exactly the same have passed muster, then this is almost certainly notable too. Would it be possible for you to propose a merge? Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:16, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

My AWB edits

There is a discussion at User talk:Art LaPella#Your AWB edits concerning whether WP:NBSP should be applied within date parameters of a citation template as in date={{Nowrap|6 November}} 2010. It also concerns whether hyphens within titles should be changed to dashes according to the WP:DASH rules that apply elsewhere, as in this previous discussion. Art LaPella (talk) 23:09, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Athletics race distances

I notice that athletics articles are not always consistent in the way race distances are designated. Using 5,000 metres as an example, all of the following styles are seen:

5,000m
5000m
5,000 m
5000 m

Which one should we be using? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.47.204 (talk) 13:47, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Either of the last two examples, assuming that a non-breaking space,  , is entered in between the number and the unit. Imzadi 1979 → 13:51, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

We ought to make a decision between the with-comma and without-comma styles too. It looks messy to have some articles using a comma and others not. Not even the main articles, such as 5000 metres and 10,000 metres, are consistent. 86.174.47.204 (talk) 14:02, 20 August 2010 (UTC).

I'd suggest you contact Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Athletics for guidance there. Otherwise per MOS:NUM#Typography, the numbers should be delimited for five or more digits, but that's optional for four digits. So that means 10,000 and higher get the comma, but 1000 or 1,000 are both correct. Imzadi 1979 → 14:13, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

There's also the complication that not all varieties of English use a comma as the separator, many use a non-breaking space: 10 000 m. Roger (talk) 14:46, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know, the non-breaking space is only used in some technical settings, and in some tables. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:17, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Commas are not used in British or South African English. I'm not sure of other varieties but I suspect that commas are used only in North American varieties. Roger (talk) 16:32, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

If that is so, then why does the Telegraph give financial results with commas?

iaaf.org uses the comma only on distances of 10,000 m or greater, so the current article titles are consistent with the relevant authority. Kevin McE (talk) 19:42, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Updating the style guidelines

Tony suggested we update the style guidelines roughly every 4 months. Does Sept 1/Jan 1/May 1 work for everyone? If so ... who'd like to help over at WP:Update/2? I used to do 27 of them, but only about 10 of those changed frequently so it wasn't that hard ... now there are 57 style guidelines. - Dank (push to talk) 20:22, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Fifty-seven? That's 50 too many, I think. Dank, are you going to publish the update in The Signpost? Tony (talk) 00:30, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

I really don't have a preference. I've just been doing them so long it seems a shame to quit. Tony, anyone, what do you want? - Dank (push to talk) 00:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

1800s=admisibl?

ifinditcleare

• psBCE=morPC-----Please note, I have [[Repetitive Strain Injury]] and find typing very hard. I use a form of shorthand, which may be difficult to understand. I can be contacted through MSN (sven70) or Skype (sven0921) if my meaning is unclear. (talk) 03:26, 21 August 2010 (UTC)