Talk:Murder of George Floyd

Meaning of "hooping"

I edited here to explain the meaning of "hooping" as "inserting drugs anally". This explanation is consistent with the context of the conversation between Floyd, Lane, and Kueng and supported by the cited article CBC which explains the meaning but in an entirely unrelated incident. I think it's pretty clear from context that Floyd isn't using the more common meaning of the term "the manipulation of and artistic movement or dancing with a hoop." Is any definition of hooping WP:PRIMARY until a WP:RSP defines it in context? The existing source Star Tribune says "Floyd said he [...] had been playing basketball earlier" but that isn't even a definition of the term. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 13:36, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

This [1] seems to disagree. So you need a source that says that its use by Floyd meant taking drugs.Slatersteven (talk) 13:40, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

It's almost uncanny the way people manage to find perverse interpretations of everything. EEng 13:55, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Kinky.Slatersteven (talk) 14:00, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven The Free Dictionary definition is for "hoop" the subsection on "hooping" contains two definitions "To hold together or support with a hoop" and "To encircle" neither have anything to do with basketball nor any reasonable interpretation in context but I'll look for a WP:RSP that is directly on point. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 14:01, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Neither does it say "to insert drugs up ya bum", either.Slatersteven (talk) 14:09, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

[[2]], [[3]], [[4]]. So yes it is a term sued in basketball.Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Talk about litigious! EEng 17:20, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

That should of course be used.Slatersteven (talk) 17:25, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't understand. What should be used? [5] EEng 20:36, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

It should have been used not sued.Slatersteven (talk) 20:38, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I see: the use-mention distinction on steroids. EEng 07:30, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven I agree, the Harvard Sports Analysis article is a good example of usage NovaCrest5878 (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

• I removed the word "hooping" from the article because it doesn't appear in the secondary sources cited. The source says "playing basketball", which is what we should say, too. If there are other secondary sources about George Floyd that use the word (or ascribe a different meaning to it), they should be posted and discussed here, maybe the content needs to be updated. Until then, it seems to me this is a good example of the reason we have an WP:OR policy and write using secondary and not primary sources: to prevent editors from interpreting primary sources, e.g., "what does 'hooping' mean in this transcript?" Let secondary sources answer that. The Star Tribune says it means playing basketball. Lev!vich 15:00, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Levivich There are lots of secondary sources discussing "hooping" and it's meaning in context but I haven't seen any that would likely be considered WP:RSP NovaCrest5878 (talk) 15:09, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I think changing "hooping" to basketball is a good solution.Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

The main one I've seen is The American Conservative [6] but that's yellow at WP:RSP which won't cut it for content this controversial in a BLP.

However, does anyone have access to the London Times? I think this Times article (based on search hits, I don't have access and it's paywalled) says hooping appears to be an allusion to drug use. Lev!vich 15:20, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

The Times articles says, in pertinent part: In the video Floyd also refers to "hooping", which appears to be an allusion to drug use: fentanyl and methamphetamine were found in his system, according to a toxicology report. The structure of the sentence suggests that the inference on the sense of the word was made, by the reporter, based on the findings of the toxicology report – uncharacteristically sloppy reporting by The Times. EEng 18:11, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

EEng#s How is The Times' inference any less valid than the Star Tribune's if anything it would seem more valid from the context of the conversation and the findings of the toxicology report NovaCrest5878 (talk) 18:41, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I didn't compare it to the Star Tribune. I compared it to The Times's usually careful reporting, from which I would have expected to read something like In the video Floyd also refers to "hooping", which may refer to playing basketball or may be an allusion to drug use: fentanyl and methamphetamine were found in his system, according to a toxicology report. EEng 19:28, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

EEng#s My apologies, you are correct. It would have been more fair for me to direct my statement toward the use of the phrase "playing basketball" than to your comment in which you clearly didn't compare the inferences. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 20:25, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

"hooping" to me has always been related to basketball. i would never use it personally, but i dont play basketball anyways. this is along the lines of the [obligatory] mention of that NYT synthesis. though the sources are reliable the content they are pushing in that specific case seems unreliable. if they tried hard enough the Illuminati can be confirmed based on the unfortunate incident... Stayfree76 (talk) 16:26, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Albeit playing devil's advocate, Chris Cuomo asserted the contextual meaning was not basketball but drug-related 'CUOMO: "Drugs! Drugs, Joey. Drugs! He was on drugs." You heard him. He asked him.' Cached CNN Cuomo Prime Time Transcript NovaCrest5878 (talk) 18:00, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Kueng: You got foam around your mouth, too?

Floyd: Yes, I was just hooping earlier.

The video of them pulling him over, and the transcript, show he was definitely talking about drugs he was clearly on at the time. Dream Focus 18:49, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

How does it show he was definitely talking about drugs, and how is that not just your own OR? EEng 19:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Police officer: You got foam around your mouth, too?

Person: Yes, I was just putting drugs in my butt earlier.

I have a really hard time believing anyone would say that, especially to a police officer, even if it were true. Basketball seems like a much more reasonable interpretation. Admittedly, I have limited experience in these areas. Lev!vich 20:06, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Sure, we believe you. But seriously, I was going to make the same point. EEng 20:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

You were going to give your original research? LegendLength (talk) 05:24, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• I added "hooping" back, with The Times, and a footnote. Lev!vich 19:56, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

whatever it says, i think it should be heavily leaned toward the meaning being basketball with a small note about drugs. Americans are pretty good at knowing the Miranda rights even if they haven't been said as well as the fifth amendment. from one of my favorite rappers, Ice Cube:

It's already over supernova// I'm Kobe you a nigga I'm hooping over//[7] Stayfree76 (talk) 21:30, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

• Does anyone foam at the mouth after playing basketball? Is foaming around the mouth something that happens by people using the drugs found in his body? Dream Focus 21:56, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
• personally, i don't care if medical documents say a drug overdose causes it or not, but basically it comes down to a fairly small list of, but is not fully inclusive: drug overdose, rabies, seizure, *neurological other serious health conditions (which he did have). he had also said he was shot before, yet there is no documentation anywhere backing up that claim. this is not saying that it was a lie, but its well known that people say anything they can to get out of charges or from getting arrested. IMO, it would be doing him a disservice for anyone's interpretation of the matter, especially when done in hindsight, to be used. i personally, would rather just leave that part out based on it being so iffy, but if it must stay it should not lean toward him admitting to being on drugs... as mentioned before, [pretty much] every american knows to tell the police nothing that can incriminate themselves, which the Miranda rights covers: Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.. with that said, it would be easy for any defendant to say it meant basketball which would cast enough doubt on the statement for it to unusable towards incrimination. Stayfree76 (talk) 22:24, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

  He claims to have been shot before, he claims his mother just died, he claims he just had covid, he said he was claustrophobic. Anyway, how its written now is fine, use his word of "hooping" don't change it to be "playing basketball". Dream Focus 22:31, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

yea, i agree with you. im just against putting any weight into what "hooping" might or could or possibly maybe means since the general discussion is about including the [fact] Floyd said something self-incriminating. i just think that any news reports on the word are in hindsight after the autopsy report was available making it way too easy to draw some [potentially] strong conclusions that would have been weak prior to. Basically, did anyone mention hooping meaning drug use before the autopsy was released? if not, then it is likely no one considered/thought that until after the fact. hindsight reporting is dangerous, imo. (im picturing the "its always sunny" episode with the crazy investigative strings connecting the pictures, maps, and news clippings in my head.) Stayfree76 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:48, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Rmv drug reference Sources related to Floyd commonly refer to hooping as basketball:

1. July 8. Fox News. "Lane said Floyd had foam at his mouth and determined he was "on something." Floyd reportedly said he was scared and had been playing basketbal."[8]
2. July 8. Associated Press. "According to the body camera video transcripts, when asked about the foam and whether he was on something, Floyd said he was scared and had been playing basketball."[9]
3. July 9. Star Tribune. "Lane then asked Floyd if he was on something, while Kueng asked about the foam around his mouth. Floyd said he was scared, and that he had been playing basketball earlier."[10]
4. July 16. The Washington Post. "But Floyd insisted he was on “nothing” and had been playing basketball earlier." [11]

Per the policy WP:EXCEPTIONAL: Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources. In this particular case, The Sunday Times, a newspaper in the UK, where basketball is not as popular as in the US, likely didn't know what it meant and took the first match that seemed to make sense from Urban Dictionary. Per WP:UNDUE: Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as Flat Earth).—Bagumba (talk) 05:40, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Lev!vich 06:04, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I disagree, to suggest "I was playing basketball earlier" is a response to the question to "Why are you foaming at the mouth?" considered reasonable by the overwhelming majority of people seems unlikely. I'm a native US English speaker and the first thing I did when I saw the transcript was search Google for the meaning of "hooping" because I'd never heard it used as a verb before. Earlier in this discussion when Slatersteven provided examples of the term referring to basketball and three of the four examples were not from US English sources. Granted the usage could be regional or urban in origin. Put it into context however and it makes even less sense. I've never heard of anyone foaming at the mouth during or after exercise absent some sort of severe health issue. Healthline lists three causes for foaming at the mouth drug overdose, seizure, and rabies and says it is a serious medical condition and advises calling 911. A reasonable person encountering someone foaming at the mouth would seek urgent medical care not presume they had been playing basketball earlier in the day. Healthline - Foaming at the Mouth NovaCrest5878 (talk) 17:13, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, but literally every part of your argument here is WP:original research. Your argument boils down to "I don't believe it." Several of us have expressed what we do and don't believe is likely or reasonable in this conversation, but in the end, when it comes to making a decision, it doesn't matter what we believe. The outcome here is driven entirely by the sources, and only by the sources, with no part of it involving what we believe, or have heard of before, or what makes sense to us. By "sources", I don't mean any source. I don't mean dictionaries. I mean reliable sources (RS) about this topic. In this case, reliable sources about this topic are mainstream press writing about this exchange between the officer and GF.

Here's how the analysis flows:

1. WP:NPOV requires us to faithfully present the mainstream view and significant minority views. Per the sources, the mainstream view is "basketball". Of five RSes analyzed here, four say "basketball". Based on this overwhelming (80%) consensus of sources, we must say "basketball", in wikivoice, per WP:NPOV and WP:V.
2. We would include "drug use" if it were a significant minority view, but we wouldn't mention it at all if it were a view held by a tiny minority, per WP:UNDUE (part of NPOV) and WP:EXCEPTIONAL (part of V).
3. WP:EXCEPTIONAL is directly applicable, and requires multiple, high quality RSes before we can say, even with attribution, that someone admitted to an officer to recent drug use (which is an exceptional claim).
4. The one source that says "drug use", The Sunday Times, is a high-quality source, but it's only one, so we can't say "drug use" and comply with WP:V (specifically WP:EXCEPTIONAL) if we only cite "drug use" to one source.
5. As such, barring additional sources to analyze, my recent edits should be reverted and "basketball" should be reinstated, cited to those four sources.
6. If there are other high-quality RSes beside The Sunday Times that say "drug use", I'd say we could represent that minority viewpoint in a footnote with attribution. Lev!vich 17:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I understand that my response was WP:OR but I thought that was acceptable in a talk reply especially when arguing against the alternate interpretation being WP:EXCEPTIONAL. I presume the flat earth example was used to set the bar high. I think there are a number of other sources though not WP:RSP Green on the alternate interpretation. Are all five of the sources you are using for your 80/20 comparison WP:RSP Green? NovaCrest5878 (talk) 18:12, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

OR is acceptable on a talk page in the sense that what you posted isn't a violation of WP:TPG or any of our policies (although too much OR on talk pages can lead to people making WP:NOTAFORUM complaints, but this isn't one of those cases). But it's not acceptable for arguing about what should go in the article in the sense that such arguments carry no weight. This is where the oft-misunderstood saying that Wikipedia is about "verifiability not truth": it doesn't matter what GF actually meant in reality, because no one will every know the truth of that with 100% certainty, since GF can't tell us. So what matters isn't "what we think is most likely", it's what the RS say, and when it comes to "drug use", what high quality RSes say.

WaPo, AP, and Fox News (for news) are listed as green at RSP. Star Tribune isn't but that's not surprising for a regional newspaper (few are listed), and it is the paper of record for Minnesota, so it would almost certainly be green if it were listed at RSP. The Sunday Times is green. However, the important thing isn't so much that a source be green (because RSP is not an exhaustive list of good sources), but that it not be yellow or red. So all five sources are reliable sources, and The Sunday Times is "high quality" (whereas I'd say Fox News and the Star Tribune are reliable but not "high quality"), so to include "drug use", even in a footnote with attribution, we'd need at least one more "high quality" source akin to The Sunday Times that says "drug use". Something like the BBC or the New York Times or an academic journal. Lev!vich 18:30, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Here are a couple of other sources "“Hooping” in the Urban Dictionary refers to the practice of transporting contraband in the rectum." The American Conservative (Yellow) "Asked whether he was “on something,” Floyd said he’d been “hooping,” or taking drugs." LA Times (Green) NovaCrest5878 (talk) 18:27, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

TAC is no good for being yellow as you point out, but I agree LATimes is green and I think it's high quality enough... LATimes is a national newspaper, the story is written by a bureau chief, it's published in the national news section... seems on par with WaPo. And as such I now think we should say "basketball" in wikivoice and "drug use" in a footnote with attribution to the Timeses. Lev!vich 18:34, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

You think the majority is basketball and the minority is drugs, I think it is vice versa. I propose wikivoice should either (1) give equal weight to both acknowledging the differing interpretations or (2) just use the verbatim term from the transcript and leave the interpretation to the reader NovaCrest5878 (talk) 18:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah but four RSes (Fox, Star, AP, WaPo) say basketball and two (London and LA Times) say drugs, no? I'd be on board with #1 if it were an even split. I'd never be on board with #2 because we're not giving the reader complete information if we're not telling them how the reliable sources define "hooping". Lev!vich 18:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

(2) was the state of the article before I naively started this and clearly there is an honest dispute even among the informed participants in this discussion NovaCrest5878 (talk) 19:04, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

True but that doesn't make it a good thing :-) In theory, every prior state of every article is worse than the current state. Lev!vich 19:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I could also make the argument that the more recent articles The Times 8/9 and the LA Times 8/20 all use the drug interpretation. The basketball interpretation articles are all from July so perhaps the consensus among WP:RSP has evolved to the drug interpretation. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 19:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

That's an argument. 6 is also a small sample size. The real question is whether there is an accepted mainstream position and a significant minority position, or whether there are two evenly-held positions, and 4-2 v. 3-3 is a real fine line and thus rather unsatisfactory. I'm curious what everyone else thinks. Lev!vich 19:13, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

The American Conservative (Yellow) article is 8/4 and uses the drug interpretation NovaCrest5878 (talk) 19:18, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

there is another big problem with this: “Hooping” in the Urban Dictionary refers to the practice of transporting contraband in the rectum. this is clearly stating the use is for transportation, not to consume. per this quote, the only way it would be in the blood is if the storage media holding said drugs was damage and were absorbed by the body. so you think GF said: i was transporting drugs in my ass, but the container broke, and i just ingested so much drugs i could die? (with the assumption that when you transport drugs its well above a single dose) StayFree76 ^talk 19:44, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it makes sense that Floyd would voluntarily admit to police that he transported illegal drugs in his rectum, i.e. one definition of hooping, when asked about foam around his mouth. It makes more sense that he would say it was from basketball like it was sweat, whether or not he actually played basketball earlier. Bob K31416 (talk) 19:46, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Urban Dictionary has multiple definitions of hooping one "Placing an foreign item or object in your rectum in an attempt to smuggle it into a location." would fit if there was a failure of the container the other "Administering psychoactive drugs via enema...aka stuffin' E up yer ass." would fit directly NovaCrest5878 (talk) 19:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

It still doesn't make sense for the same reason. Bob K31416 (talk) 20:51, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

that's fine, so we have 2 sources suggesting drugs, but lets look at that closer. one states which appears to be an allusion to drug use (not statement of fact) and the other states ...“hooping,” or taking drugs., but doesn't qualify how they drew the connection. that makes the weight of these, imo, much lower. StayFree76 ^talk 20:35, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

To be blunt, no source will ever be a statement of fact on this subject. Even if Floyd were alive the best anyone could do is hope to get an honest answer from him but since he is gone all anyone can do is make an informed guess. That's undeniably true regardless of how reliable any source may be. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 20:42, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's the relevant excerpt from the body cam transcript, pp 6–7.[12] Floyd says he's not on drugs and explains that the foam around his mouth is from hooping, which wouldn't make sense if hooping meant taking drugs.

Lane: What are you on something right now ?

George Floyd: No, nothing.

Kueng: Because you acting a little erratic.

Lane: Let's go. Let's go

George Floyd: I'm scared, man

Lane: Let's go

Kueng: You got foam around your mouth, too ?

George Floyd: Yes, I was just hooping earlier .

Bob K31416 (talk) 21:54, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't want to beat a dead horse but as I and others have explained above we've read the same content and arrived at a different conclusion. The question now is how to proceed with opposing interpretations and no possibility of an indisputable source ever being available. I proposed two possible approaches but I'm open to better ideas. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 23:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the point I made wasn't discussed before. It's based on Floyd saying he didn't take any drugs, "No, nothing." Bob K31416 (talk) 00:07, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@NovaCrest5878: well, i didnt mean the statement was fast or not. making a statement of fact is more in respect to how the idea is presented. they are basically questioning the idea in their own statement, but still thought it necessary to bring up. i can lie to your face, but make it a statement of fact, if i word it as fact. StayFree76 ^talk 22:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

It's a little difficult to follow, but If I understand, you are basically pointing out that by using the phrase "which appears to be an allusion" they are telling the reader that this is their best interpretation of the contextual meaning, not an indisputable fact. My point is that whether the source is or isn't explicit in telling the reader this is their interpretation of meaning logic dictates it is. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 22:55, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Allusion is a figure of speech, in which an object or circumstance from unrelated context is referred to covertly or indirectly. It is left to the audience to make the direct connection.. sounds like they are saying: "you decide for yourself". doesnt sound like something that Wikipedia can use, but then again im just an inexperienced editor so ill stop chiming in. that was the last bit i had left in me so ill drop out from here. hopefully my stance is accounted for in any future changes. :). StayFree76 ^talk 23:44, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Is hooping important? If we can't state in Wikipedia voice what hooping is thought to mean in this context, perhaps we don't mention it at all. The article already states that Floyd played basketball growing up. It's in the article that the officers suspected he was on something, and that he denied it. We already mention the drugs found in the autopsy. Mentioning the informal/slang terms that are unfamiliar to most readers doesn't buy us anything if Wikipedia is non-committal on its meaning in this context. For example, CBC describes the sequence without mentioning hooping: The other officer asks if he's on something. The first officer says, "Because you're acting real erratic … You've got foam around your mouth." Floyd says, "I'm scared, man."[13] If sources make hooping more prominent later, we can revisit.—Bagumba (talk) 13:15, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

FFS, stop overthinking this. Floyd was into basketball, and would never tell the cops that he had shoved drugs up his arse. Just leave the quote as it is, almost all readers will get the gist that he had claimed he had just been throwing baskets. This thread reeks of OR. Just back off and let Floyd's quote be interpreted by readers. WWGB (talk) 13:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Source analysis table

Reliable sources on "hooping"

Source	WP:RSP listing	Date	Includes "hooping"?	Interpretation	Quote
Fox News [14]	green (for news excluding politics and science)	7/08	No	basketball	Lane said Floyd had foam at his mouth and determined he was "on something." Floyd reportedly said he was scared and had been playing basketball.
Associated Press [15]	green	7/09	No	basketball	According to the body camera video transcripts, when asked about the foam and whether he was on something, Floyd said he was scared and had been playing basketball.
Star Tribune [16]	not listed but it's the largest paper in Minnesota	7/09	No	basketball	Lane then asked Floyd if he was on something, while Kueng asked about the foam around his mouth. Floyd said he was scared, and that he had been playing basketball earlier.
The Washington Post [17]	green	7/15	No	basketball	Lane asked Floyd whether he was on drugs while Kueng pointed out the “foam” around his mouth. But Floyd insisted he was on “nothing” and had been playing basketball earlier. The county’s autopsy of Floyd showed evidence of fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use, but did not list them as causes of death.
The Sunday Times [18]	green	8/09	Yes	drug use	In the video Floyd also refers to "hooping", which appears to be an allusion to drug use: fentanyl and methamphetamine were found in his system, according to a toxicology report
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation [19]	not listed but it's Canada's national public broadcaster	8/11	No	none	Pulled by his elbow, Floyd says, "Ow." The other officer asks if he's on something. The first officer says, "Because you're acting real erratic … You've got foam around your mouth." Floyd says, "I'm scared, man."
Los Angeles Times [20]	green	8/20	Yes	drug use	Asked whether he was “on something,” Floyd said he’d been “hooping,” or taking drugs.

Posted. Lev!vich 18:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Continued discussion

• I posted a source analysis table above, adding the sources in the discussion above, but excluding any sources that were listed yellow at RSP. Please feel free to add any additional sources. Based on the table above, I think we should say "played basketball" in wikivoice in the body of the article. I'm ambivalent about a footnote explaining that he used the word "hooping" and that according to LA and Sunday Times, that's an allusion to drug use. Note that what's in our article currently is a bold edit of mine that I don't think has consensus and that doesn't include all the sources listed above.. currently it presents just two contradicting sources, so I don't think the status quo should remain, regardless of what we decide to change it to. Lev!vich 18:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
  • I'm equally OK with either 1) saying "basketball" in WP voice (based on weight in sources) with a footnote to drug interpretation or 2) removing any mention to "hooping" and its interpretations because there is enough doubt on what it meant in Floyd's context, and the article already states that he was a basketball player and drugs were in his system.—Bagumba (talk) 06:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• There is no evidence he was talking about basketball or that he was ever playing it. Some sources say hooping, others just guess that he meant basketball, some say it meant the drug meaning of hooping since he was foaming at the mouth and that doesn't happen from playing basketball. No reason not to just list exactly what he said. Dream Focus 04:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Fair point. Both meanings are informal. If we cannot agree on what Wikipedia will say in its own voice about the meaning of the slang, which is unfamiliar to most readers, then "hooping" doesn't seem significant enough to mention at all.—Bagumba (talk) 04:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Lane asked Floyd if he is "on something right now" to which Floyd replied "No, nothing". That is absolute. Are we really to consider that Floyd continued "unless you mean the drugs I shoved up my butt"? He clearly ruled out drug-taking, which removes that definition of hooping. Re the foaming, exercise often leads to dried spittle at the corners of the mouth, which could be confused with foam. (It is visible in the photo in the infobox). WWGB (talk) 08:24, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
      • That's your interpretation. Not sure why this matters at all, how its related to the shooting. He was on drugs, they did confirm that with the autopsy, and the defense is arguing that the drugs killed him not the guy shoving his knee on his throat, it just happened at the same time by coincidence. Doesn't add anything to the article, so might as well eliminate it. Dream Focus 13:01, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Place of residence for the four officers

It seems rather significant and important that none of the main people involved in the incident were actually residents of the City of Minneapolis, including Floyd and all four officers. A reader would assume that the incident involved people from Minneapolis unless told otherwise. Floyd lived in St. Louis Park and drove 20 minutes specifically to go to Cup Foods, a fact the article notes. The four responding officers lived all over the metro area as noted by several sources, including a Star Tribune article on June 5, 2020. I suggest adding a sentence that lists the place of residence of the officers in alphabetical order: "At the time of Floyd's arrest and death, the officers were residents of Coon Rapids, Oakdale, Plymouth, and Saint Paul, respectively."VikingB (talk) 15:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

(oops, edit conflict; we both started sections. Combining.) User:VikingB has made several attempts to add the specific towns where the four officers live, calling it “an important detail”.[21][22] Those additions were removed by User:WWGB, User:Bagumba, and me. Let’s discuss whether this is information that we should be reporting, or whether it violates their privacy or possibly poses a threat to them. Personally I believe we should not specify their residences, as they are Living People who took part in a highly controversial action, which could make them targets. The fact that some sources have chosen to report the information does not necessarily imply that we should. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:12, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

At one point you added a more general statement that none of the officers lived in Minneapolis itself[23], which seems possibly more acceptable. That one was reverted, I believe as Original Research because the source itself does not summarize in that way. Still, that might be a more acceptable way of making the point than actually naming their towns. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:17, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Why would it matter where they live at? Dream Focus 15:22, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I was wondering that, this seems trivial.Slatersteven (talk) 15:23, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I would agree that the place someone lived is irrelevant unless an RS draws some conclusion that it was material to the events. Living 20 minutes away from somewhere isn't significant unless someone remarks on it (i.e. if it was suggested Floyd travelled those 20 minutes for a reason that is particularly relevant). Going to a particular grocery store isn't important unless someone remarks on it (i.e. if, as I believe some sources have remarked, Floyd often attended the same shop meaning the owner may have had prior). It is particularly unimportant when they seem to live in the "wider metro area" as someone I believe said. Koncorde (talk) 15:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's a source that makes that conclusion and explains why it is a relevant detail in Minneapolis.VikingB (talk) 16:17, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Mother Jones is clearly biased according to WP:RSPSOURCES. We shouldn't be going off that on whether or not to include place of residence for living persons, which requires significantly more tact. Anon0098 (talk) 21:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

If multiple sources don't bring it up, it's not significant. Otherwise, the factoids we can mention are limitless.—Bagumba (talk) 15:59, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Definitely not worth doing OR for. —valereee (talk) 16:00, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion. Here is a source explaining why that trivial detail may matter: "[name of officer], like the majority of Minneapolis’ police officers, lives outside of the city he patrolled. Nationwide, the configuration is not that unusual. But this type of geographic gap has been a source of tension in efforts to reduce police violence against Black residents." Another local news article discussed the context of Floyd's death with Minneapolis police officers not living in the city. Other articles have discussed the broader issue of MPD officers not residing in the city, but without specific context to Floyd. The proposed edit using the Star Tribune article on June 5, 2020 just notes the facts of the officers residence.VikingB (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Then that is the context we should mention it is.Slatersteven (talk) 16:17, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. The context here is the significance of the tension, not where each person lives. Removing it from that context loses its significance. Koncorde (talk) 16:35, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Agreed; making the "non-resident officers" point cited to that MJ article (and here's CBS local making the same point, and a USA Today article mentioning GF but not the specific officers involved) is good and can be done without giving the officers' particular residences. The non-resident officer issue has been written about before GF [24] [25], seems like good analysis to include in our article. Lev!vich 17:42, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

VikingB writes "Floyd lived in St. Louis Park and drove 20 minutes specifically to go to Cup Foods, a fact the article notes." Where does it say in the article that Floyd drove 20 minutes to go to Cup Foods? Bus stop (talk) 20:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

You're right, the article doesn't say that. I misspoke. Sources don't explain what particular drive Floyd made that day or why. But we do know he didn't live or work in Minneapolis by May 25, yet he still went to the store per the store that was 20 minutes from where he lived. See the New York Times: "Mr. Floyd’s apartment in the suburb of St. Louis Park was about a 20-minute drive from Cup Foods, but he often visited the store to buy cellphone credits at the market’s MetroPCS counter." Sorry if I made the discussion more confusing.VikingB (talk) 21:13, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, VikingB. Thanks for the link to the article mentioning this. Bus stop (talk) 21:44, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to talk VikingB. I read the Mother Jones article but am unable to access the NYT. I agree that this certainly is related to Floyd's death, but since it is not particular to only this death I believe that this would not be the place to bring it up--but if the group decides to include it here we would need a paragraph about it and not merely one sentence. BTW, a long time ago I used to live a couple of blocks from where Floyd was killed. St. Louis Park is usually considered to be part of Minneapolis and not a suburb. Have you considered working this into the Police brutality article? Gandydancer (talk) 22:47, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm going to default to WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE on this one. Seems a bit much to list where each of them live. Anon0098 (talk) 21:42, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Anon0098, we should not list where they live. Dream Focus 22:44, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

"almost eight minutes"

FYI

The lead currently reads that Chauvin kneeled on Floyd for "almost eight minutes".

You are invited to join a related discussion about the kneeling duration at Talk:George_Floyd#"Nearly"_eight_minutes.—Bagumba (talk) 09:46, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Article name (again)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should this not say Death of George Floyd? From what I see he died of an overdose.[26] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phyrelin (talk • contribs) 14:02, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

See Q4 at top of page. WWGB (talk) 14:04, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

So far it's considered a homicide. Your reference's title, "Medical examiner: George Floyd may have had 'fatal level' of fentanyl in his system", only suggests fentanyl overdose as a possible cause of death.

At one of the links in your article was the interesting comment by the County Medical Examiner, "[Dr. Andrew Baker] said that if Mr. Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no other contributing factors he would conclude that it was an overdose death.”[27] Bob K31416 (talk) 17:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion is a waste of time, this topic has been thoroughly exhausted. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 23:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't see why we don't just call it death of George floyd. He could have died from an od. He even had Heart Disease and covid. His actual death happened when his heart stopped. He could have been killed. Death would cover literally every term. If it actually turns out to be ruled an overdose, I think the person in control of the article name will genuinely keep it labeled "killing" because you could be "killed by drugs." We have an article called Death of Sushant Dingh Rajput for instance. It's surrounded by conspiracy and because the official cause is difficult to discern, they chose death as the most objective word. Here I think the title of the article favors accusation over accuracy, so the name is loaded as killing. EpicMemeGamer (talk) 06:21, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Fentanyl Changes This Whole "Story"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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As is now known from evidence heretofore suppresed, Gorge Floyd had a fatal level of fentanyl in his bloodstream at the time of his death.

Therefore this article needs to change.

First it should be the "Death of George Floyd" and not the "Killing of George Floyd."

Second the fact that Floyd was suffering from a fatal dose of fentanyl at the time of his death needs to be prominently reported.

Third, the full report of the medical examiner should be linked, which documents that there was no evidence of physical strangulation.

There is a good case that this article simply should be taken down because it is hopelessly biased in favor of the assertion that the presumed innocent police officers are guilty, in spite of the key facts that have come to light. The article is clearly an editorial which seeks to try these officers in the court of public opinion. It has no place on Wikipedia.

Please bear in mind that likely innocent men are being tried for murder and the substance of this article is such that the chance of a fair trial is reduced. It would be more appropriate for the article to be taken down. Once the trial is over, if the case is not dismissed before it goes to trial, then at least all of that evidence will presumably have come to light.

JAQUINO (talk) 23:42, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@JzG: KARE (TV) is a local Minneapolis, Minnesota station affiliated with NBC. i dont think its right to call it unreliable. StayFree76 ^talk 00:42, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

An assertion this dramatic would need to receive coverage by multiple high quality sources. El_C 00:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Also, the OP needs to read the FAQ and tone down on the polemics. That is not helping anything. Stay grounded on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, please. El_C 00:52, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

El_C i agree with you, i just wanted to bring it up since it was also a reason on the close. the other issues can stand on their own. StayFree76 ^talk 00:59, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Direct Links To Court Records Regarding Fentanyl, Absence of Physical Evidence of Strangulation

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The medical examiner "said that if Mr Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no other contributing factors he would conclude that it was an overdose death."

The medical examiner said "no bruising in neck on any muscles or injuries to structures" and "No bruises on back, or evidence of blunt trauma to back." JAQUINO (talk) 02:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

So if he had been found somewhere else, and hadnt been on the ground with people kneeling on him the coroner would conclude an overdose.

And lack of bruising or trauma =/= the same as having your death caused by being knelt on in a manner that even the MPD recognise was unsafe.

Despite which, this is still your personal interpretation and original research. Koncorde (talk) 03:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The KARE story linked to above says:

"If he were found dead at home alone and no other apparent causes, this could be acceptable to call an OD. Deaths have been certified with levels of 3," Baker told investigators.

In another new document, Baker said, "That is a fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances."

But then Baker added, "I am not saying this killed him."

Kinda forgot to mention that last part. Lev!vich 03:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

We generally rely on WP:SECONDARY sources, not primary. The concern stated at your previous post was whether there was enough sources to satisfy WP:EXCEPTIONAL.—Bagumba (talk) 03:57, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Here are multiple secondary sources:

The article needs to reflect these important developments. JAQUINO (talk) 11:05, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Fentanyl is already in the article and has been for a long time. Lev!vich 15:04, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

1 and 2 are primary sources. We don’t use them. Nor do they say fentanyl was the cause of death.

3, 6, 8, 9, and 10 are claims by the defendants lawyers. These cannot be trusted.

4 says the death was caused by the police and the examiner could not say fentanyl killed him.

5 is a source we do not use.

7 says this was a homicide.

And as Lev!vich says above, fentanyl is already in the article. O3000 (talk) 16:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

considering the above, shouldnt it at least be mentioned [with multiple RS] the defense is claiming it was an overdose? if that is their defense strategy or a component thereof, i think it is highly relevant, and should at least be included somewhere around the criminal charges section.StayFree76 ^talk 19:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I think we could use the WSJ to say something along the lines of 'Lawyers for Chauvin argued the death was due to a Fentanyl overdose. Lawyers for Floyd's family called the statement "a desperate attempt with charlatan tactics."' —valereee (talk) 21:21, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

attributed statement from both sides of the trial and multiple rs. seems good to me. StayFree76 ^talk 22:05, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@JzG: how is this forum? sources were provided, proper discussion has been had. why do you keep closing discussions for WP:RS? is it because i am part of the discussion? StayFree76 ^talk 22:59, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Cause of death

The issue of cause of death is obviously central to the case, and Causation (law) is a difficult area, to say the least. I think we should follow WP:WikiVoice on this question; specifically, describe disputes, but not engage in them. There are at least three points of view that should be described: that of the medical examiner (who should come first), that of the family, and that of the defence. I've made a start on that with some recent edits. Adoring nanny (talk) 18:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

We use medical views. The text you added is just a motion from a lawyer. If the defense obtains a statement from an outside medical examination, that would be DUE. Also, the current text is not in WikiVoice and does not engage in any dispute. O3000 (talk) 18:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

The ME did say that the amount of fentanyl in Floyd's system was potentially fatal, but that in his opinion, it was not the cause of death.[28]. Do you agree that would be WP:DUE? Adoring nanny (talk) 19:20, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with removing the lawyer's opinion. We should not report what a bunch of POV laymen (the defense, the family) claim is the cause of death. What we need is medical conclusions based on actual evidence. We have two such conclusions, they differ somewhat (although both called it homicide), that's what we report. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:40, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I think there's useful information here. It's just a matter of putting it in the article in a proper way. The useful info is that a motion was filed with the court. Here's a possible addition to the article which starts a new subsection.

Criminal Court proceedings

On August 29, 2020, attorneys for Derek Chauvin filed a motion for dismissal on the grounds that Floyd died as a result of drug use and preexisting medical conditions. On the same day, prosecutors filed court documents saying that Floyd was vulnerable because he was handcuffed and held down on the ground.

References

I tried adding it [29] but it was reverted with the suggestion that I discuss it here. Bob K31416 (talk) 21:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Bob, that certainly works for me. Adoring nanny (talk) 21:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I would also agree. In that context, that amount of detail is fine. However second sentence also feels incomplete. I get what it is trying to say, but it feels like a correlation whereas the paragraph reads like causation (i.e. they filed their document in response to the other) and lacks an explanation of what "vulnerable" means in this context. Is the argument because he was vulnerable something should have been done differently, that this creates culpability? Koncorde (talk) 21:46, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

i don't think we can be so lucky as to get a complete definition of every word that is stated that may be interpreted differently depending. also, when it comes to legal matters, people like to keep things vague so they don't pigeon hole themselves and can change it up as needed later down the road. the same reason why preliminary reports exist. StayFree76 ^talk 00:11, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Look, if you mean well then can you at least read the words and stop going off on unrelated tangents.

1. . This is a legal submission to court by the Prosecution for a reason, not a vague 5th amendment claim made by you about the police department misleading statement - both unsubstantiated speculation and unrelated forum content, please stop shopping around your personal theories.
2. . I am not asking for a definition of every word. I am asking for the context that explains what vulnerable means in this proposed statement "prosecutors filed court documents saying that Floyd was vulnerable because he was handcuffed and held down on the ground" to be included. The context is that they are seeking an "upward sentencing departure"[30] as a result of the following: At the same time, prosecutors in the case against Chauvin and three other former Minneapolis police officers said they plan to seek stiff sentences if the men are convicted. They said in court documents that Floyd was vulnerable because he was handcuffed with his chest pressed against the ground and he was treated "with particular cruelty.""Despite Mr. Floyd's pleas that he could not breathe and was going to die, as well as the pleas of eyewitnesses to get off Mr. Floyd and help him, Defendant and his co-defendants continued to restrain Mr. Floyd," the prosecutors wrote. Koncorde (talk) 01:31, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

The problem is that the article doesn't give more context about that word. I think it's saying that because he was handcuffed and held to the ground, there was a greater chance of dying if something else went wrong. But that's me, not the source. Adoring nanny (talk) 01:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

So we find one that does like I did above? If a statement lacks any context, and we present it in a paragraph we are verging on synth by placing two disparate elements together. It also creates the potential for false balance, where adding information afterwards is challenged because the other viewpoint only has one sentence. Koncorde (talk) 05:16, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's a version with a revised second sentence.

Criminal Court proceedings

On August 29, 2020, attorneys for Derek Chauvin filed a motion for dismissal on the grounds that Floyd died as a result of drug use and preexisting medical conditions. On the same day, prosecutors filed court documents asking to increase the possible sentence length above the guidelines, arguing that Floyd was vulnerable while being held down on the ground in handcuffs and treated cruelly.

Bob K31416 (talk) 01:23, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Motions are commonly filed by defense attorneys to dismiss cases on some argument. This is not an article about a trial. Let us see if the motion succeeds and add it in (the incredibly unlikely) case that the judge thinks a lawyer has more medical knowledge than the medical examiners. WP:NODEADLINE O3000 (talk) 01:33, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, there is actually more that could be included if we were to include everything. The actual motion to dimiss appears to be per following: "Defense attorney Eric J. Nelson filed the motion in Hennepin County, Minnesota, District Court on Friday, claiming prosecutors have failed to show probable cause for charging Derek Chauvin with second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter." by only referencing the drug use we appear to be missing out a good chunk of the arguments made about why it should be dimissed. Koncorde (talk) 01:35, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Surely we won't include every such motion. Pretrial motions to dismiss are as common as (fill in your favorite quote). O3000 (talk) 01:51, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

No, but it can help to accurately characterise the positions that are being taken pre-trial. Particularly when those motions are themselves highly controversial, or particularly notable in the case of the prosecution seeking to raise the maximum potential sentence. Koncorde (talk) 05:16, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Paragraph on the autopsies should be amended to reflect the new information

The article covers Floyd's condition as follows:

"An autopsy report by Hennepin County medical examiner on George Floyd stated that he was positive for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, at the time of his arrest. The report also indicates that Floyd had fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system at the time of his death, although this is not listed as the cause of death.[27] An independent medical autopsy commissioned by Floyd's family stated "evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause of Floyd's death", the death was a homicide, and Floyd had no underlying medical problem that caused or contributed to his death.[28][29]"

Given the fact covered by multiple credible sources and backed by direct evidence cited by those sources, it is clear that the potentially fatal level of fentanyl in the Floyd's bloodstream is a more important fact from the autopsy report than COVID. It is true that fentanyl is not listed as the cause of death, but the medical examiner is now documented to have identified a fatal level of fentanyl in the bloodstream. Further, in the discussion above, (User:Adoring nanny) has summarized the reference to the Fox news reference in a misleading way. In reference to the fatal level of fentanyl in Floyd's bloodstream, the medical examiner said "I'm not saying it killed him." This is not the same as saying the fentanyl did not kill him. Further, the autopsy report as cited by Fox above states that there is no physical evidence of asphyxiation, which is contrary to the plaintiff's expert witness position, and the countervailing information in the Hennepin County medical examiner's report is omitted. Finally the autopsy "commissioned by Floyd's family" is not "independent." That is an assertion of which elevates the opinion of the examiner who did not have access to the physical evidence or the toxicology report at the time the statement was made above the opinion of the Hennepin medical examiner.

In light of this, I offer the following to replace the paragraph above:

An autopsy report by Hennepin County medical examiner on George Floyd stated that, at the time of his arrest, he was suffering from a potentially lethal level of fentanyl in his bloodstream, was positive for SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, and that Floyd had methamphetamine in his system, although none of these are listed as the cause of death. In addition, “The autopsy revealed no physical evidence suggesting that Mr. Floyd died of asphyxiation.” A medical autopsy commissioned by Floyd's family stated "evidence is consistent with mechanical asphyxia as the cause of Floyd's death", the death was a homicide, and Floyd had no underlying medical problem that caused or contributed to his death.

JAQUINO (talk) 00:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Sources

The positivity rate for Covid in Minnesota is currently over 70%. (It passed 90% a month ago.) [31] It’s meaningless to say he was one of these. And, there is no indication that he had any life threatening symptoms, if any at all. It is also known that such tests can show positivity with exposure too light to cause disease. I don’t see the use of including in the article that he was exposed to SARS-CoV-2. As for the drugs in his system, the medical reports agree that it is a homicide. Unless you are suggesting that someone forced fentanyl into his system, it’s not relevant. And keep in mind that this is still a WP:BLP. O3000 (talk) 01:17, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

FYI regarding the positivity rate in your reference [32], the chart "Number of Tests and Percent Positive by Week" indicates about 5%, not 70% or 90%. Note that the bar chart part is for the number of tests (axis on right) and the line chart part is for positivity rate (axis on left). Bob K31416 (talk) 15:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Oops, thought that was awfully bad.:) Still don't think inclusion serves any purpose in the article. O3000 (talk) 15:48, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

User:O3000: Please compare the paragraph that is proposed for correction with the text I offered. The COVID reference is in the article already and for that reason I left it there. Perhaps it is inlcuded because the NPR source felt it important enough to highlight. Otherwise I agree with you on the COVID.The homicide conclusion is featured prominently in the first paragraph of the article. If that were not the case then it would be logical to include that information in the fourth paragraph.

Your other comments conflict with the sources cited. WP:BLP: "We must get the article right." You state: "fentanyl...it's not relevant." However the Hennepin examiner found it to be relevant and discussed the topic extensively and sources NPR and Fox both found it to be relevant. The Hennepin examiner found it relevant that there was no physical evidence of asphyxiation, or at least the sourced inclusion of the fact in examiner's report appears to be the Wikipedia standard of its relevance. The fourth paragraph as it stands suppresses the sourced facts regarding Floyd's condition or the findings of the Hennepin examiner's autopsy, while highlighting the contrary assertions of the second examiner. The article is not right.

JAQUINO (talk) 02:51, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I have no objections to updating the info, but we need to clear that the cause of death is homicide. I'll request we say a "potentially lethal" dose though. It was not a fatal dose as he didn't die from it. We don't know if it was a lethal dose for Floyd either, just that it could have been based on LD50s and medical evidence.

Pardon the gory parallel, but if someone swallows cyanide and someone else atrangles that person, its still a homicide. And we dont know if the cyanide was a lethal dose either, just that it likely would have been. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:13, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Better analogy is a drunk driver. When they autopsy his body and say he had a lethal amount of alcohol in his system that if they found him dead in a ditch they would declare it misadventure, it doesnt stop the cause of death being the impact with a tree. Koncorde (talk) 05:20, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

There is no new information here. Our article accurately reflects the opinions of the two pathologists, without inserting our own interpretation as is being attempted here. -- MelanieN (talk) 05:17, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the lead should be straightforward, and not unduly pick which theories to give weight to in the lead. I've removed autoposy details from the lead before it comes bloated with POV to satisfy NPOV.—Bagumba (talk) 05:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Potentially lethal level of fentanyl seems to be a significant fact here. Whether or not it was the reason of death, it was a significant factor at least, which was highlighted by dr. Andrew Baker, so the fact of the dose being potentially lethal should be mentioned at least in "autopsies" section, as well as "This level of fentanyl can cause pulmonary edema. Mr. Floyd’s lungs were 2-3x their normal weight at autopsy" from the report. adamant.pwn — contrib/talk 15:00, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Do the autopsies say that?Slatersteven (talk) 15:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

It is not something stated in autopsies, but it's related to autopsies and stated by someone related to them. We already cite some "preliminary opinion" in that section, so I suppose that we as well may include the opinion of Chief Hennepin County Medical Examiner. Feel free to suggest some other section of the article if you find it more appropriate there. adamant.pwn — contrib/talk 15:19, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Baker explicitly said that the fentanyl did not kill him. Lev!vich 16:27, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Can you provide a source for it? As far as I can find, Baker only claimed that he is "not saying this killed him". Surely it's not same as "it did not kill him". But as far as I'm concerned, the "not saying this killed him" claim may be mentioned alongside the fact that Floyd's fetanyl dose "is fatal level under normal circumstances". I'm also fine with including it with any counter-arguments, such as dr. Michael Baden rationale that fatal dose may be different for different people. adamant.pwn — contrib/talk 17:51, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Airflow requirements

This is not a forum to discuss your own analysis or viewpoint of motives of the event. EvergreenFir (talk) 12:28, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Many sources correctly say that regarding postural asphyxia due to prone restraint the issue is restriction of the diaphram. For that condition it is NOT true that if someone can speak they can breathe adequately. However, regarding neck compression, an airflow for normal breathing requires about 8 liters per minute. That is what the safety ISO sheet for BIC pens says, that is why they have a hole of area 3.4 square millimeters at the end of the cap. A hole of 3.4 square millimeters is large enough for adequate breath to enter the airway at the neck. For speaking, some phonemes require 1.0 liters of air *per second* which is a peak rate of more than *seven times* greater than adequate for respiration. If the neck compression is constant so that the peak rate equals the average rate, it means that someone who can speak normally can get seven times the necessary amount of air needed to breathe. I stress, that for diaphram compression the peak rate is sustainable only while the diaphram can move. But for the restraints of neck compression, it really is true that if someone can speak someone can breathe. Now, we get to the real issue, the combination of postural asphyxia and neck compression. I still think if it is analyzed carefully, if a person can speak then the asphyxia due to diaphram limitation is not significantly aggravated by the airway restriction at the neck. This all relates to Chauvin's remarks "You are using a lot of oxygen when you speak" and "relax." It is very possible that Chauvin ignored passersby not because he was cruel but because he was convinced he was doing the right thing. Floyd had injured himself by banging his head in the car. Very likely Chauvin saw his role as preventing injury, only. Createangelos (talk) 12:04, 31 August 2020 (UTC) Please read wp:or.Slatersteven (talk) 12:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)