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Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3

Initiated by Nyttend at 01:19, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected: Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Nyttend (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Ymblanter (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
Galobtter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by Nyttend

This is not some sort of complaint/argument/etc. Just trying to get an authoritative statement on this decision's scope.

Airbnb is a US-based company that acts as a broker for people who have spare rooms in their homes and people who want to rent those rooms. Apparently there was some controversy related to Israel-Palestine and this company, so the article has a section on this issue. Ymblanter recently protected the article under ARBPIA following some disruptive editing to this section. I questioned this action, saying basically "did you accidentally protect the wrong article", and Ymblanter responded basically "I protected it intentionally, because the disruptive editing was related to Israel-Palestine". His response mentions some consultation with Galobtter regarding the duration.

So the question...are this decision's stipulations on page protection meant to apply to all articles that have bits related to Israel-Palestine, or is it only intended for pages to which Israel-Palestine is an integral component? This article is definitely the first — one can understand the company quite well without a tiny Israel-Palestine section sourced only to news reports and an advocacy organization. By the latter, I'm talking about Israeli politicians, places in the West Bank, events in the history of Gaza, etc. The situation here reminds me of the "weather" situation at WP:TBAN — if we had similar sanctions on the topic of weather, I suppose we'd not consider all articles with "climate" sections liable to ARBWEATHER protection.

If we assume either Ymblanter's perspective or mine, there's no room for dispute over whether this is an appropriate protection; if Arbcom meant to include all pages with Israel-Palestine sections, of course this is an appropriate protection, and if you didn't mean to include pages like this, obviously this should be treated like any other victim of disruptive editing rather than an Israel-Palestine issue. So once again, no hard feelings exist yet, and I don't envision them arising in the future; I just want the scope to be clear.

if the result of this clarification request is that only dedicated articles can be extended-confirmed protected (or anything else) this is perfectly fine with me says Ymblanter. I agree — if the committee intends ARBPIA to apply to articles in an Airbnb-type situation, that's fine with me. Nyttend (talk) 23:48, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, at User talk:Ymblanter#Protection of Airbnb, Ymblanter said I am not sure I can now so easily remove or lower the protection. I do not think we have a mechanism of lowering ARBPIA protections. If an admin levies an ARBPIA sanction and then changes his mind, is there something preventing the admin from self-reverting? If this is indeed the case, and it's specific to ARBPIA (I don't know; I don't do WP:AE), it would be helpful if you implemented a mechanism for lowering ARBPIA protections or allowing other self-reverting. Nyttend (talk) 23:54, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ymblanter

The consultation with Galobtter which Nyttend mentions is at my talk page, User talk:Ymblanter#Protection of Airbnb. Concerning the issue itself, I indeed interpret the decision such that if an article contains a significant part (in the case of Airbnb, this is a dedicated section) the discretionary sanctions apply. However, I do not hold strong opinions here, if the result of this clarification request is that only dedicated articles can be extended-confirmed protected (or anything else) this is perfectly fine with me.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:40, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra: Without giving my opinion of the motion you mention, if someone compiles a list of articles where the notice must be placed I volunteer, after a reasonable check, place the notice to all these articles (which obviously is going to take time but it is still better than nothing).--Ymblanter (talk) 21:13, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AGK: Yes, it is time to conduct review of all remedies. We are slowly moving towards professionalizing of AE in general and PI in particular, when one first needs to study for five years and then run an internship in order to be able to act there responsively. This is not really good.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:33, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Galobtter

Statement by Doug Weller

It looks as though this problem is going to continue. It's been discussed for over a week at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests#Some issues relating to the IP area which I urge everyone to read (and User:Huldra has found a slew of articles that need templating and edit notices given the current sanctions). Towards the bottom of the thread I've tried to outline how I understand ARBPIA sanctions are meant to work. Doug Weller talk 05:36, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's also virtually the same issue as I raised a few weeks ago which can be found at Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, isn't it? Doug Weller talk 09:19, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@BU Rob13: I'm pretty sure that my understanding as outlined at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests#Some issues relating to the IP area is in line with yours, if not please tell me where I have it wrong. What's needed now to clarify "reasonably"? I presume a motion, right? Doug Weller talk 14:41, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@BU Rob13: I'd like to see a discussion of your suggestion to remove the "blanket 500/30 of "reasonably construed" pages in favor of discretionary but liberal use of 500/30 to combat abuse across all "broadly construed" pages." In the last two days I've had to disappoint an Admin (User:El C and an experienced editor(User:Nableezy) who thought IPs couldn't edit anything to do with the conflict. I also like rewording somne DS alerts to mention 1RR. Doug Weller talk 11:54, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Huldra

This is not related to the issue about parts/whole of the article being under ARBPIA, but it relates to the imbecile motion added March this year. Yes: imbecile!

After that motion, no-one can be sanctioned for 1RR unless an admin has placed an edit notice on the article in question. Since there are thousands of articles, and only a few hundred of them have edit notice, the result is that clear cut violations of the rules goes unpunished; see this example.

So while "All Arab-Israeli conflict-related pages, broadly interpreted" are placed under "discretionary sanctions", the 1 RR rule has become unenforceable on most article.

This is a totally untenable situation, I hope that arb.com either:

1. Undo their March 2019 motion, or
2. Start templating the thousands of articles which need to be templated. (In addition to the ones I have already mentioned on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests, we can add all the ‎Israel settlements on the West Bank and the Golan Heights, all the kibbutz, etc built on the 48 villages land (they will be found in the "current localities" in the infobox, see eg Suruh.....you would be amazed as to how often that information "disappears"...)

I would prefer that you chose option 1, that's because admins are not the best persons to see what is under ARBPIA, or not. Case in point: Solomon's Pools, where both, say, Icewhiz and I agree that it comes under ARBPIA, but "outside" admins have a difficulty in seeing that. (For those of you who don't know us: Icewhiz and I disagree about just about everything regarding the I/P area...) Huldra (talk) 21:07, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Ymblanter: All articles mentioned in Template:Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus (and the Israeli localities on their land), all Palestinian localities on the West Bank; listed under Template:Governorates of the Palestinian Authority. I would also say all localities listed in [[Category:Arab localities in Israel]], and all localities in the Golan Heights: Syrian towns and villages depopulated in the Arab–Israeli conflict, and the places mentioned in it and Template:Golan Regional Council. Huldra (talk) 21:28, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That old expression: "Don't fix it if it isn't broken" should also be the guiding words for arb.com. This 14 March 2019 change basically changed a structure which was working..sort of..to one with lots of complications. I cannot recall any editor wanting to edit ARBPIA articles, achieving 30/500 status, and not knowing about ARBPIA sanctions. What normally happen, is that they wander into ARBPIA territory before they reach 30/500, they are promptly reverted, most with a note on their talk page. Then, if they are mature enough, they stay away until they have reached 30/500, and then they return.User:SilkTork: yes, the 14 March 2019 added "This remedy may only be enforced on pages with the {{ARBPIA 1RR editnotice}} edit notice." I just became aware of that, as I reported an obvious offence, but the editor walked scot free, thanks to this. See here.

User:AGK yes, it is a patchwork, and I would love to see one standard. Especially what "broadly constructed" and what is not. (I think User:BU Rob13 is the only one who understands it!) 1RR is one of the best things there are in the ARBPIA area, alas, the 14 March 2019 change was horrible: it made 1RR unenforceable on most ARBPIA articles. Why have rules if there is absolutely no punishment for breaking them? Huldra (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, User:SilkTork, I hadn't seen the January 2018 note: [1].(I don't follow the "Discretionary sanctions" page), that makes me more understand the 14 March 2019 changes. We have two set of rules for ARBPIA, and I have given up hope of ever understanding those rules....

Also, according to these idiots, I have a IQ of about half a zillion, I don't know if I would trust them, but I tend to understand things that have a logic to them. And as a corollary to that: when I don't understand a thing, it is usually because there is no logic to it. I would love to see some logic to the rules in the IP area...Huldra (talk) 23:33, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I went to Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/Template editor, and got pagemover rights. So now I see a "Page notice" on my editing screen, where I can put {{ARBPIA 1RR editnotice}}. I will advice everyone (who is not admins) to apply for this, Huldra (talk) 21:13, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

To editor SilkTork: I think you missed the point when you wrote "If someone feels that there is significant enough content which falls under a DS topic on a particular page/article then they can place a DS template." No they can't; only administrators and template editors can add the editnotice that arbcom decided is needed for enforcement. Zero^talk 10:50, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To editor BU Rob13: Before 500/30, IPs and new socks would cause disruption because they don't care about rules while the good editors trying to preserve article integrity were constrained by 1RR from reverting the disruption. The combination of 1RR and 500/30 has proved very beneficial to the area and I don't understand why you think removing 500/30 would be an improvement. Zero^talk 07:54, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sir Joseph

I think that articles that are not broadly about the conflict should not be locked down under ECP, they can be locked down temporarily, they can be IP protected, etc and then when the vandalism passes, it's good to go. We should not have many articles under a patchwork of horrible ARBCOM rulings that are terribly confusing to enforce and understand. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:03, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Davidbena

I think that it is wise and pertinent that no-one can be sanctioned for 1RR unless an admin has placed an edit notice on the article in question. If the 1RR edit-notice were to apply to all articles in the I/P area, and if ordinary editors could add such notices, who would prevent them from adding these notices to every town and city in Israel (Palestine), irregardless of whether or not the town had been involved in the Israeli-Palestinian struggle? Editors would still find a way to include it, since both sides vie for the control of the same country. This would greatly impede progress and make the simple task of editing much more difficult, just as we found in the article Solomon's Pools, which to my dismay came to be associated with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, although it has absolutely nothing to do with that conflict other than the fact that the pools lie within territory controlled by joint Israeli-Palestinian Authority officials. In my humble opinion, we should avoid making the task of editing bogged-down in red-tape and litigation, whenever possible, and only in those articles where by their nature they spark heated debate or POV views should these 1RR edit warnings be added.Davidbena (talk) 23:52, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Gatoclass

I have long argued that discretionary sanctions should be applied not only to articles within the topic area, broadly interpreted, but to edits clearly related to the topic area in question, regardless of whether the article topic itself is related. This is because the topic area to which discretionary sanctions apply can be referenced peripherally in almost any article (falafel, anyone?) If somebody is making edits somewhere, anywhere, that can be reasonably construed as pertaining to the topic area, then surely all the usual discretionary sanctions should be applied to those edits regardless of which article they were made in. It seems to me that if this approach were to be adopted, the regular tiresome debates about whether or not a given article belongs in the topic area could be avoided altogether. Gatoclass (talk) 12:29, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I should add, with regard to extended-confirmed protection, which is a special case because it works to automatically block anyone who doesn't meet the editing criteria on a given page, that an alternative approach might be to manually enforce extended-confirmed on articles which only peripherally relate to the sanctioned topic area (such as Airbnb in this case), in order to avoid penalizing the vast majority of users who are not making edits that pertain to the sanctioned area. Or alternatively, to use the automated protection only for limited periods, until the related dispute cools down. Gatoclass (talk) 13:14, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sandstein

@AGK: In response to your question: yes, ArbCom rules in the I/P area are too complicated, to the point where I'm reluctant to help enforce them because of the likelihood that I'll do something wrong and/or need to spend too much time reading up on the rules. I agree that the relevant decisions should be reviewed. Off the cuff, it might be worth it to consider reverting to basic discretionary sanctions. That's because drive-by disrupters using new accounts can be easily dealt with without the need for complicated rules, and AE regulars who are playing long-term games with the I/P content are quite capable of gaming complicated rules to their advantage. I could be wrong, though, and maybe the rules are actually helpful. Hence the need for a review. Sandstein 09:27, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nableezy

WP:NOTBURO. Yall have made this more complicated on each iteration. You have made it so what was intended to be a way of limiting edit-wars for the topic and limiting the sockpuppetry into one that on too many pages is unenforceable due to a technicality or not applicable because of this reasonably or broadly dispute. To me the answer here is obvious, divorce where extended-confirmed is applied (reasonably construed), but apply the rest of the prohibition to the larger set (broadly construed, with only the sections about the topic area covered). And remove the edit-notice requirement. What is important is that a person know that the edit is covered by the 1RR. Having the {{ARBPIA}} banner on the talk page and having been notified of the sanctions is enough of a notification, and requiring the edit-notice is allowing for some of the sillier games to be played without a hint of shame. Besides, I have yet to see an example where an editor was not asked to self-revert prior to being reported. By the time a report is made they are effectively notified and their refusal to self-revert should be enough to consider sanctions. This was supposed to be simple, and for years it was successful. The last several "clarifications" have undone a decent chunk of that success. nableezy - 09:06, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Or at least make me a template-editor so I can add the edit-notices myself. nableezy - 09:14, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Icewhiz

Rob's suggestion to make 500/30 conditional on ECP being applied to the page makes sense. I would suggest making this a "package deal" with 1RR (so if ECP is applied - 1RR is always applied as well). If these are handed out on an article level on a very liberal basis (e.g. mere relation of a page to the conflict - assuming requests at RfPP will be handled quickly and promptly - even without evidence of disruption for "reasonably construed" (for "broadly construed" - one should have evidence of disruption)) - then the amount of disruption should be fairly low (and if a new editor hops around many unprotected pages doing un-constructive editing - regular DS would still apply). For new articles, all one has to do is ask at RfPP (e.g. diff for a new current event conflict article).

The advantage to moving to a more normal (in relation to other topic areas) DS regime is that the current regime in ARBPIA is a rather severe roadblock for new editors, who can accrue sanctions at an alarming rate due to a mere misunderstanding of 500/30 and 1RR (which are even confusing to regulars (some long term editors diverge from AE norms in the parsing of "what is a revert") - let alone new comers). New Israeli or Palestinian editors invariably edit many pages that are "reasonably construed" (e.g. geographic locations, the country articles, all sorts of organizations) - even if their particular edits are not particularly conflict related (e.g. updating the head of the local council in a West Bank settlement after local elections) - the "survival rate" of such new editors on Wikipedia (without getting TBANNED from the topic area - and potential TBAN violations subsequently leading to blocks) is pretty low under the current sanctions regime - as they are able to edit non-ECP articles (running foul of 500/30 and often violating 1RR).Icewhiz (talk) 12:34, 12 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Serialjoepsycho

The rules should apply where they apply naturally or rather the use of common sense is necessary. Every article need not be given a templet or protected simply because it dips it's toes in areas that are under sanctions. However when editors import the conflict into these articles due consideration should be given on a case by case basis for the appropriate action. An editor topic banned from ARBPIA related topics should be able to edit AIRBNB but they shouldn't be allowed to edit the portions of the article related to ARBPIA. Uninvolved admins also need the ability to take some appropriate form of action when the general disruption associated with articles under sanction is exported to articles that merely get their toes wet on the subject. I'd have to endorse a rewrite of these sanctions or any others that simplify them but they do need to have teeth.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 04:11, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ZScarpia

I would like to check whether my understanding of the situation is correct and to clarify how the remedies would effect interaction with editors on pages which could not be reasonably construed as relating to the AI conflict.

Two sets of sanctions affect the ARBPIA area, the general remedies (1RR and 500/30) and discretionary sanctions.

The general remedies appy on pages which could be 'reasonably construed' as relating to the conflict. For them to apply, the ArbCom Arab-Israeli edit notice must be placed on affected 'pages'.

Discretionary sanctions apply, more broadly, on pages which may be 'broadly construed' as relating to the conflict. The ArbCom Arab-Israeli enforcement notice may be placed on the talkpages of affected articles, but such a placement is not necessary for discretionary sanctions to apply. However, discretionary sanctions may not be applied unless editors are aware that discretionary sanctions are in place.

The Airbnb article as a whole cannot be 'reasonably construed' as relating to the conflict and therefore the general sanctions do not apply to it, though part of it does and editing of that part may be subject to discretionary sanctions.

If an editor who doesn't meet the 500/30 standard edits the part of the article which is conflict related or leaves conflict-related comments on the talkpage, how should (or may) another editor handle it if he or she thinks that those edits or comments are problematic? Similarly, how may it be handled if an editor makes more than one revert to the conflict-related material within a 24-hour period? Is all that can be legitimately done to give a warning that enforcement under discretionary sanctions may be sought (though, if enforcement was sought, there would be no bright lines and it would be up to individual admins to decide whether to apply 500/30 and 1RR)?

← ZScarpia 15:43, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Retro

Since there's a motion to open ARBPIA4, it seems appropriate to mention a discussion I was involved in just today related to another aspect of the previous decision.

There seems be some ambiguity regarding whether 500/30 should be preemptively applied to pages clearly entirely related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Local practice at RfPP has generally been to avoid preemptively protecting, following a 2017 discussion. This local practice seems to contradict the General Prohibition, which states: [Non-EC editors] are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict. This prohibition is preferably enforced by the use of extended confirmed protection, but where that is not feasible, it may also be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters. Some administrators have mentioned they avoid reverting non-EC editors who aren't disruptive on these pages, despite the General Prohibition.

The state of current practice suggests a clarification regarding this prohibition's interaction with WP:PREEMPTIVE is needed at the very least. If the committee is considering a new case, this is probably an opportunity to review how practical these measures are for administrators to implement and how easy they are to understand (echoing concerns expressed above).

Doug Weller also mentioned related concerns in their 12 May 2019 comment above. Retro (talk | contribs) 01:47, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Maile66

Whatever you decide, please put it in a table format, easily accessible to any and all. As is, this policy is explained differently in separate places. It's been open to individual interpretation by whomever applies it, and, therefore, challenged by non-admin users who feel it is applied unnecessarily. We need something concise, easy to read, and very clear about what the policy is. The current policy is rather ambiguous. — Maile (talk) 11:11, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Palestine-Israel articles 3: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Palestine-Israel articles 3: Arbitrator views and discussion

Sometimes we can bogged down with the letter of the law rather than the spirit. The intention of DS is to prevent disruption; if there is material on Wikipedia which is likely to lead to disruption, then it is appropriate for us to monitor that material. If the DS wording inhibits us from appropriately preventing disruption then we may look to change the wording rather than allow the disruption to take place due to unclear wording. The material in this case, Airbnb#Delisting_of_West_Bank_settlements, does fall under the Palestine-Israel tension. It is currently neutral and factual, and we would want to keep it that way, so applying DS to that material is appropriate. (For me the greater debate is should that information be in the article on Airbnb, or in the article on Israeli settlement. But that's an editorial decision, not an ArbCom one.)

I think I'm comfortable with the template wording as is so we don't need to be fiddling with "page/article/section/material". If someone feels that there is significant enough content which falls under a DS topic on a particular page/article then they can place a DS template. If another person doesn't agree, the matter can be taken to AE for discussion and consensus. While the template is in place, any inappropriate edit to any part of the page would be liable for sanction - that would be to prevent, for example in this case, anyone deliberately vandalising Airbnb to reflect badly on the company in retaliation for their actions on the West Bank.

In short, I think we're fine as we are, and nothing needs to be done. Disagreements about siting of templates can be taken to AE. SilkTork (talk) 00:49, 26 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Zero0000. My understanding is that a DS notice goes on the talkpage to let people know that the article comes under DS, and if someone edits that article, and it appears they are not aware that DS applies to the article, they need to be informed on their talkpage before sanctions can be applied against them. I understand that an editnotice can also be added, but does that mean a talkpage notice cannot be placed, and a user cannot be informed? Has there been a rule change which says that we are no longer using talkpage notices, and no longer informing users? I wouldn't have thought an ~~talkpage notice~~ editnotice is sufficient notice alone before sanctioning someone because, lets be honest, most people don't read ~~talkpage notices~~ editnotices. But they do read notices left on their talkpage. SilkTork (talk) 16:06, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Huldra, I see what you are saying. Though the rule regarding editnotices has been in place since January 2018: [2]. I think the intention was to ensure that users get warned by having editnotices placed on appropriate articles. But it has created a limbo loop hasn't it? The rule to place editnotices should be separate from the general rule on warning. That is, an editor who meets the general criteria for being warned, should not be able to escape sanction by wiki-lawyering that there was no editnotice in place. It looks like Rob intended or hoped that a bot would be created that allowed editnotices to be created if there was an appropriate talkpage notice in place. I think AGK is right - it would be helpful to conduct a review of the remedies. SilkTork (talk) 22:34, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Huldra - Hah, yes, I was a member of Mensa in the Seventies, yet my mind glazes over when faced with some ARBPIA stuff. But, truth be told, IQ tests only test how good someone is at solving IQ tests, they don't measure the ability to handle arcane Wikipedia bureaucracy created by an ever changing committee. SilkTork (talk) 01:27, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration remedies applying to the Arab–Israeli conflict seem to have grown confusing and patchworked. Is it time to conduct a review of all remedies? I'd like to hear from editors and enforcing administrators who are active in this topic area. Among other questions for a review, we should look at whether 1RR is effective – both in general and under the current rules of notification. AGK ■ 10:20, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Retired arbitrator

Airbnb is rather obviously not "reasonably construed" to be within the topic area of an international conflict, though it is "broadly construed" to be. That would mean discretionary sanctions are in force, but 1RR and the general prohibition do not apply. As for calls to review the entire topic area's sanction regime, I consider that unhelpful. There are some editors, admins even, who seem like they just simply won't understand anything we throw their way in this topic area. Further tweaking is highly unlikely to change that, because we've tweaked these sanctions about a dozen times already to try to solve such issues, and the repeated changes have never helped. If anything, they've made things more confused because we aren't just settling on one set of sanctions and sticking with it.
What we have now is discretionary sanctions on articles "broadly construed" - meaning any article that's even tangentially related to the topic area. Additionally, we have 500/30 and 1RR on articles "reasonably construed" - meaning any article where one could not talk about the article subject at the top level without delving into the topic area. That really isn't that complicated or confused.
The one positive clarification we could make here is to set forth a formal definition of "reasonably construed". I would suggest what I wrote above. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 05:18, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- My thinking on this has changed rather sharply after the recent Huldra/Sir Joseph kerfuffle, especially the admin response at AE. It has become clear that the current sanction regime, in total, is not working. I think we need another ABRPIA case to review the entire situation. As a potential road map, I'd like to consider a removal of blanket 500/30 in favor of implementing 500/30 where disruption occurs as a discretionary sanction, with a remedy explicitly noting that the Committee would like it to be used liberally but not unreasonably. Blanket 500/30 is a relic of a bygone era when 500/30 could not be applied by technical means in case-by-case scenarios. Existing protections could be automatically converted to discretionary sanctions appealable at AE like any other sanction, so no "mass-unprotecting" during a switch. I also think we need to rethink the awareness requirements of 1RR and its applicability. In particular, we could change the DS notice to include mention of 1RR and then allow a consensus of administrators at AE to enforce 1RR in cases where a reasonable editor who had received the notice would be aware the article was covered in addition to being able to enforce it where edit notices exist. In other words, edit notices would only be truly needed to enforce the requirement on articles that are difficult to tell are reasonably construed to be within the topic area, but not on those articles that are obviously related. Plus I think a look at the long-term contributors in this area would be useful to determine where there are issues that have not been solvable by the community. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 19:15, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- @Zero0000: Read carefully what I have written. I have not proposed removing 500/30. I have proposed removing blanket 500/30 of "reasonably construed" pages in favor of discretionary but liberal use of 500/30 to combat abuse across all "broadly construed" pages. I have proposed zero removals of existing protections, stating all existing protections should remain if we were to make such a switch. In fact, such a proposal may increase some protections by eliminating from our vernacular this "reasonably construed" language that is proving hard for admins to parse. The current rule is clearly causing some issues, given the protection of Airbnb, which I believe is rather plainly not intended by our sanctions, and I no longer think the benefits outweigh the harms of removing administrator discretion from the equation in this remedy. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 08:00, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: We are trying to reach a consensus, so placing comments by a retired arbitrator into {{Hidden}}. AGK ■ 11:21, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PIA ARCAs make me want to hide under the blankets, and it seems I'm not the only one. Frankly I'd love to see this topic area get a rules overhaul, but I don't have the time to do it. A number of these repetitive requests on PIA issues have centered on this point about "what if it's just a small section in a larger and mostly-unrelated article" and I've generally held the view that such things should not be included in all the warning/templating/etc infrastructure. I don't see any reason this should be an exception to that general view. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:48, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what's more to be said here - but I've been lax at ARCA, so I thought I'd pitch in. In my opinion - the discretionary sanctions can be applied where the disruption occurs - hence the broadly construed nature of that. I would hope that the sanction would be as light as possible in areas that are more tangential to the case, be it through time limitation of the sanction or through a tailored sanction which hits as small an area as possible.
I like the idea of re-doing ARBPIA, similar to OR, I'd want to hide under the blanket! Worm^TT(talk) 08:45, 2 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Motion: Arab–Israel conflict

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Proposed:

The committee opens proceedings on pages relating to the Arab–Israeli conflict, naming it Palestine-Israel articles 4. Proceedings will take place in the normal form. Evidence (and related submissions, including at the Workshop) must remain within the proceedings scope. The following matters will initially be within scope:

Trends in disruptive editing of related pages, but not the specific conduct of any editor.
Difficulties in Wikipedia administrative processes, particularly arbitration enforcement (AE), with regard to related pages.
Currently-authorised remedies under any arbitration decision that affect related pages.
Prospective amendments to, or replacements for, existing remedies.
Other general matters relating to the ease with which Wikipedia keeps order on pages relating to the Arab–Israeli conflict.

Support

Proposed. We don't have a lot of bandwidth right now, but we seem to agree that it is time to formally review these decisions and look into why participating editors and uninvolved administrators alike seem to be discontented. This motion proposes a low-fuss path towards conducting such a review, and hopefully matches with what colleagues were thinking. AGK ■ 11:17, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to, because these discussions are sprawling and polarising. I don't know how we are going to fit it in, with our other workload. However, I do agree that this is probably the right time to do this, it needs tidying up. What's more, if the committee itself can let this stall so long, it appears that we don't have a clear way forward and that's what we're here to try to sort out. I do like the proposed scope, making this a bit more meta and might make things a bit more manageable, good job AGK. Worm^TT(talk) 12:18, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have been meaning to do a motion on this for a little while now, but never got round to it, so thanks to AGK for taking the initiative, and for giving thoughtful shape to the proposed proceedings. SilkTork (talk) 15:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I support this in principle, and agree with the above, thanks AGK for tackling this. But I don't know that we have the bandwidth for this right now. One possibility would be to schedule the opening for a specific time in the future after we've moved through some of the current business. Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:36, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's daunting to think about redoing ARBPIA, but it looks like there is fairly widespread agreement among editors in that topic area and administrators trying to enforce remedies in that topic area that the restrictions there are in bad shape. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:54, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Abstain/recuse

Comments

Amendment request: The Rambling Man

Initiated by Ritchie333 at 21:00, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected: The Rambling Man arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=873547734#The_Rambling_Man:_Motion

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

Ritchie333 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
The Rambling Man (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Notification to User talk:The Rambling Man

Information about amendment request

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=873547734#The_Rambling_Man:_Motion

Propose changing the ban text to the following (deleted words struck, new words in bold):

The Rambling Man is topic banned from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to, the Did You Know? process. This topic ban does not apply to User:The Rambling Man/ERRORS and its talk page or to articles linked from DYK hooks or captions (these may be at any stage of the DYK process), or to discussions anywhere on the project where his input into a DYK nomination has been solicited.

Statement by Ritchie333

I have recently made peace with The Rambling Man (TRM) following an earlier dispute. As he has been very helpful in the past with good article reviews, I suggested one he might be interested, and also mentioned an earlier thread where Gerda Arendt had wanted a DYK hook reviewed that TRM would probably also be interested in. TRM simply said that he was unable to help due to the ban listed above.

The bold addition to the ban text above would allow TRM to make more positive contributions to the project in a good spirit of collaboration with willing editors, while continuing to address the concerns raised by the proponents of the original ban. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 21:00, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Rambling Man

I've been asked many many times to contribute to, review or otherwise provide wisdom on DYKs. I'd be delighted to do so, thus enriching our main page for our readers, and reducing the shocking error rate we currently see. As long as it's only when someone asks me nicely, I can't see a problem in me generously offering my time to enhance the experience of our audience. After all, this project is all about our readers. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 21:08, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, hang on, let's correct, it's only when the nominator of a DYK asks me nicely then I'll allow my expertise to be sought. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 22:34, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gatoclass There's no such thing as "DYK privileges", just an aspiration to stop the usual errors getting to the main page. And for what it's worth, I'm not happy with the sudden relaxation in quality going to the main page, the ERRORS page has been full of issues with DYK lately. Let's try to work together to reduce the garbage our readers see, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia. And yes, I'm only going to comment on DYKs whose nominators have asked me nicely to comment on. Nothing else. That's what this amendment is all about. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 23:10, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gatoclass thanks, once again. Indeed, before I was topic banned, I had participated many times at DYK during the review process. I can't think of a single instance where my reviews weren't considered (as a minimum) perfectly suitable for the process. It's clear to me that there's some very unclear thinking on this proposal from a few, where various issues are being incorrectly conflated, not for the betterment of the encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 08:01, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Narutolovehinata5 seriously, the quality of the DYK section is so poor, every day, that it really needs help. I think the ban on me helping is simply cutting off one's nose to spite one's face really. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 06:56, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you get sarcasm really, right? The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 07:31, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Banedon great input, I'm not sure it makes any sense though. This is simply to allow me to review articles for suitability. Nothing more. The hysteria surrounding some mythical "slippery slope" is pure fiction, there are plenty of people, yourself at the head of the queue, who are there to ensure I will remain persona non grata. Problem is that I'm a brilliant reviewer. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 06:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my god, it's just how these cases work, people ping each other to let them know that they've responded to their comments. But I suppose it's yet another chance to make a mountain out of a molehill. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 07:28, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, not hostile at all, just conventional. Deary me. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 07:45, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ERRORS2, as the name suggests, is for ERRORS, not for DYK reviews. That's pretty obvious. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 09:52, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've already said once My input would be purely at the review stage, i.e. checking the article complied with every single DYK rule, that the article in general was up to scratch, and that the hook was verifiable and adequately interesting. If it was twiddled and tweaked thereafter, I'd have nothing to say about that, I'd have done my bit. I don't expect to request anyone's opinion on anything during a review as I'm more than capable of these matter myself. Does any of that need clarification? The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 11:36, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PBP89, that's false, I don't expect anything to adhere to one particular "style", that's a very odd (and fake) accusation. I expect general compliance with MOS, but that's just what you'd hope from a professional encyclopedia, isn't it? The Rambling Man (REJOICE!)

And please stop following me around Wikipedia. This is basic harassment. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 06:05, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's only you who is harassing me PBP89, casting aspersions about my "requirements", telling me to "shut up", calling me a "bully". Disgusting. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 17:38, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should leave it now, many other editors have asked you to dial it down a couple of notches. As this is about the DYK process, something you don't participate in, I'm not even clear how you found your way here to start harassing me again. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 05:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As I suggested above, you've been asked to dial it down a notch or two and avoid personal attacks and other such problematic behaviour. I'm not displaying arrogance, just honesty. My skills are in demand, as noted by many many editors here. That you arrive here to attack me again and again is highly problematic. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 16:29, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And you would be advised to strike your personal attacks and stop harassing me. This isn't a case against me, by the way. Your hyperbolic "increase sanctions" is a very good example of why you really need to dial it down a few notches. Or I suppose you could just tell me to "shut up" and call me a "bully" instead? As for examples, I'll leave that to the hundreds of editors I've reviewed GANs, FLCs, FACs for. Several of them have commented right here. You might like to read what many of them have said. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 16:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And that logic is flawed twice over. Firstly, this is about reviews asked for by specific editors. So they can choose whether to interact with me or not. Secondly, DYK is the only section of Wikipedia where I don't interact with other users. I have given literally thousands of reviews at GAN, FLC, FAC etc with no problem at all. I know there's a desperation to keep "punishing" me, but when attempting to do so, people should use logical arguments and really resist the temptation to just reiterate their grudges. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 05:23, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Opabinia regalis what do you mean "user subpage"? That's just for reporting errors on the main page (or about to go to the main page, around six per day), not for requesting review of items at DYK. I think the point being made here is that people are looking for me to actually review the DYK nomination. Which of course I'd be glad to do, and as described, I'm very good at doing, but the current ban precludes that. Hence one of the reasons for WP:TRM funnily enough. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 07:49, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Opabinia regalis My input would be purely at the review stage, i.e. checking the article complied with every single DYK rule, that the article in general was up to scratch, and that the hook was verifiable and adequately interesting. If it was twiddled and tweaked thereafter, I'd have nothing to say about that, I'd have done my bit. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 09:04, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Valereee One step at a time. There's so much protection around the DYK project from regulars, there's little chance of opening up the topic ban to that extent, we'll still have to wait until the last moment before queues are promoted packed with errors, but the initial proposal might just help those who need a critical pair of eyes before that last moment. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 09:01, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gatoclass boom, there it is. Exactly. Appreciate the level-headedness. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 09:56, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sandstein since you're wikilawyering, please take this as me requesting that this amendment be heard. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 05:34, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Narutolovehinata5, personal attack noted. This really isn't the appropriate venue for such insults. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 07:47, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GorillaWarfare, no that's an errors page. This is about reviewing DYKs. The two are completely different. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 20:10, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, you've missed the point again. To perform a review of a DYK at the request of a nominator, the review must be conducted on the relevant DYK template. It makes literally no sense at all to place the review in a user ERRORS space. I don't think you realise how DYK reviews work. Nor do you appear to be paying attention to the vast majority of the contributors here. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 07:10, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I said you weren’t paying attention to the community consensus here which is clearly in favour of allowing me to perform formal reviews of DYKs when explicitly requested to do so by nominators. Indeed, even those intimately involved in the process are encouraging my input. And as you are familiar with DYk, you will know that explicit formal reviews can’t be performed in user space. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 18:29, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I get it, but you haven't offered a single reason in logic to oppose me from providing high quality DYK reviews, but then I suppose that's how you arbitrate. Who said anything about counting votes? I was considering the array of logical arguments from many who are actively involved in the DYK process, and from those who have received quality reviews from me in the past. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 20:33, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Even more now. Those that are espousing logical argument are in favour of me helping out. Those who are espousing hate and grudge are not in favour of me helping out. I see which side you have selected. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 17:27, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mendaliv that's bang on the money. I challenge those here to actually look at the quality of the reviews I have provided in the past, and even quite recently, at DYK, FAC and more frequently at GAN and FLC (where I suspect I've made in excess of 1000 reviews over the years). I challenge those claiming that allowing me to provide such quality reviews to those who ask for it and those only would be of any issue to the community to provide evidence as to why that would ever be the case. As I think several editors have noted here, this is simply about improving the quality of the main page, yet unfortunately it appears that this is being used by certain users and Arbs as a chance to berate me once again or to simply state the status quo as if that is, in any way, helpful to this process. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 19:51, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mendaliv Of course, calling me "toxic" is a direct personal attack (I know you didn't) and of course I'm more than happy to help the project with my expertise, but we have Arbs here who are just making personal decisions and ignoring the community. It's a lost cause really, as they'll all gather round the Arb for self-protection. C'est la vie. PUNISHMENT is alive and kicking at Wikipedia, and some Arbs are promoting it. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 18:20, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I just took a quick sojourn around my "template" edits (which is where you'll find DYK nominations, preps etc, for those of you unaware of the arcane DYK process), and didn't quite realise how many incredibly helpful edits I'd made in a bid to keep the main page free from so many errors. I went back over a thousand or more, practically none of them saw any kickback. So given none of the reviews I have ever done for DYK were objectionable, nor any of my corrections to prep sets were objectionable, I would venture to suggest that the only real objection was to me time and again berating the project for its general lack of quality at the project talk page (which, for those not in the know, can be found at WT:DYK). So, perhaps to simplify things, we could actually just make the topic ban applicable to the project talkpage itself, as that seems to be where all the problems manifested. There really was never an issue with my reviewing, that's fake news I'm afraid. Opposing allowing me to do the encyclopedia a favour by performing reviews upon request really is punitive. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 16:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

valereee I'm not sure I follow. What I mean is that the DYKs etc I've reviewed have gone through the main page etc without any complaints. In other words they're of a quality sufficient for our main page. Plenty of people complain about other DYKs, etc. It's not just me. Or else why do we have the quaint WP:ERRORS? It's not circular at all, it's just evidence that what I do in my reviews is of benefit to Wikipedia. If you can prove otherwise, I'd like to see it. Because right now, all those in opposition have offered not a single shred of evidence in that regard. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 16:58, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Valereee you know what, I'm not sure I've ever used the word "perfect" in relation to my reviews, so you might like to revisit all your comments and adjust accordingly. All I know is that I see errors (like "I see ghosts") just before the hit the main page. On average, around five to six per day. So all I'm saying is that I could probably help reduce that. You need to choose your paraphrasing more carefully friend! The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 17:25, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Valereee No, I'm not sure I've ever said my reviews couldn't be criticised. You need to work on that again. Please stop putting words in my metaphorical mouth. If you want "the answer" (TM), then it's "all my reviews are designed to minimise errors on the main page as to reduce the embarrassment for the project every day and in every way". Feel free to use that verbatim, or how you see fit. But stop making stuff up about me. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 19:03, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Valereee thanks, but now your comments make no sense. There's nothing circular about an open review system where I do my utmost to fix things and leave it to others to finish the job. Unless, of course, you're acknowledging that I'm the ultimate perfect reviewer. I doubt that too. Once again, please think about what you're saying and how you're saying it. This is a very serious Arbcom case, and we already have several contributors simply not reading evidence, please don't exacerbate the situation with further obfuscation and confusion. It seems like some people contributing here can't quite grasp what's happening, and your misguided assertions really aren't helping. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 19:21, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Valereee Yes, and I appreciate your comments. Just the problem is we already have one Arb who has literally shown no interest at all in the evidence being provided, and hyperbole like making claims I think my reviews are "perfect" just feed that problematic behaviour. There's no "logical fallacy" at all. It's empirical evidence. Please, before you continue to make such bold claims, re-assess what you're doing. I'm here to reduce problems on the main page. Arbs, users etc don't like it. Individuals who have experienced what I do believe it's a good thing. Let's leave it at that. Stop trying to re-position it. You're not quite making it, and every time you try, it's still not quite right. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 20:03, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Valereee Once again I appreciate your support, but I've never made any claims that I am infallible or perfect or close. I'm not clear on why you're making such claims using various different terms. I'm here to improve the main page. Let's at least agree on that. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 20:20, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Gatoclass

I haven't had much time to consider this proposal, and will be going offline shortly so will be unable to comment further for some time. I'm a little concerned about some of the comments TRM has been making with regard to some DYK hooks lately, so I'm somewhat ambivalent about the notion of his DYK restrictions being eased at this point. However, I have said from the outset that he should be permitted to copyedit DYK hooks himself as his work in that regard has always been both useful and uncontroversial, and as he would no longer have to prompt other editors to do it for him and those editors in turn could employ their talents elsewhere. With regard to Ritchie333's proposal above, I have considered making the same proposal myself occasionally, but I worry about the potential for abuse, as his supporters could constantly canvas him for his views at DYK and we'd be back to square one. But at the same time, I don't want to be unreasonable. I'll need some more time to think about this, and see what others have to say. Gatoclass (talk) 22:39, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see TRM has amended his previous statement to propose restricting his commentary to requests from nominators only. On the face of it, I can't see much objection to that. Gatoclass (talk) 22:43, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@TRM: I have refactored my original statement as I think it could have been better expressed. And of course, I'm always happy to work together constructively to improve the encyclopedia. Gatoclass (talk) 05:14, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Having had some more time to think about this, I'm struggling to see a downside. TRM's problematic behaviour has arisen almost entirely around his dissatisfaction with the quality of reviewing at DYK. It's hard to imagine any such problems arising if it's TRM himself doing the reviewing - is he going to be castigating himself for not doing a good enough job? Moreover, DYK is always in need of more reviewers - particularly quality reviewers - and TRM is about as rigorous a reviewer as they come. So I see this as potentially a win both for those who are seeking TRM's assistance in creating better nominations, and for the DYK project at large. In short, providing he intends to confine his reviewing to the nomination pages of those who request his assistance, I'm in favour of it. And it's not as though, after all, we can't return to the scope of the original ban if new problems arise. Gatoclass (talk) 09:53, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Opabinia, I probably should have responded to your question earlier asking why TRM can't just conduct a review on his dedicated "ERRORS2" page. The reason (if you are unfamiliar with the process) is that DYK reviews are conducted on dedicated pages which look like this. They can also at times get quite complex, like this recent example.

TRM's errors page is not designed for extended reviews, it's there to identify hook and article errors. You can't approve a DYK nomination anywhere but on the dedicated nomination page, and if TRM were to conduct reviews on his errors page, you would have to save the resulting discussion to the nomination page anyway for future reference. So why not simply have the discussion at the dedicated page from the outset?

I reiterate my previous statement that I think easing TRM's restrictions in this manner would not only be highly unlikely to have a negative impact at DYK, it should have an outright positive impact as we are always in need of more reviewers at DYK and TRM is the kind of rigorous reviewer that the project needs more of. Moreover, he will only be reviewing the articles of users who have specifically invited him and with whom he therefore has a positive working relationship.

Perhaps I should also remind the Arbs that I can hardly be described as a fanboy of TRM, having strongly advocated for his DYK restrictions in the original request. In that regard, I am still strongly of the opinion that his ban from DYK talk, WP:ERRORS and any other highly visible page, where he has shown a persistent tendency to soapbox about the DYK project, should remain in place. But for dedicated (and intrinsically low-profile) DYK nominations pages - where he has been specifically invited by the nominator - it's very hard to imagine how that could become disruptive - on the contrary as I've suggested it should be of net benefit to the DYK project. Gatoclass (talk) 07:42, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Opabinia - yes it's true that individual nominations pages are transcluded to the global nominations page, but relatively few nominations get input from more than one user as people are generally looking for a new nomination that has yet to be reviewed. And as TRM is a rigorous reviewer, it would probably only be on rare occasions that somebody would want to challenge his conclusions, so the likelihood of exchanges with DYK regulars would probably be slim. As I've said previously, the main issue with TRM's participation at DYK in the past has been his disparagement of users, and of the DYK project in general, for defective reviewing. Since the proposed modification to his sanction would only allow him to do his own reviews, by invitation, there would be little reason or opportunity for him to be commenting on the reviews of others. But again, in the event that this modification did result in significantly more problematic behaviour, which seems unlikely, one could always go back to the previous regime. Gatoclass (talk) 09:59, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Banedon - that was an exceptionally long nomination discussion that is a rarity at DYK - I included it only as an example of how long the occasional review gets, and how impractical it would therefore be for TRM's ERRORS2 page to be doubling as a review page. Most DYK discussions are brief and have only one reviewer. In TRM's case, he doesn't miss much and consequently as I said his reviews are only likely to be challenged infrequently. Also, if people don't want to interact with him, they can simply ignore any nomination he is a participant in. Gatoclass (talk) 11:51, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cas Liber

I think the modification provides clarity. Wikipedia is also desperately short of reviewers. I see this as a net positive Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Narutolovehinata5

Considering the issues with TRM's behavior at DYK before, I still feel that it would be better to stick to the status quo, unless TRM would promise to abide by the rest of his topic ban (i.e. refrain from making judgments about editors' competence) and he would promise to tone down his rhetoric. The main issue why he was banned from DYK in the first place was due to his attitude, which led to conflicts and frustrations with the rest of the DYK community. I'm not comfortable with him coming back unless there is effort that these issues would not happen again.

If consensus determines that this proposal be implemented, may I suggest some kind of probational period where in he could be allowed to contribute to DYK again (in what manner, let consensus determine), but if returns to his old ways or the prior problems return, then the stricter ban would be reinforced. I'm not sure how long would this period be, but probably no more than six months: if after the period there are no problems then he can be allowed back for good. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 00:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Upon seeing TRM's new comments in his section, I am putting it for the record that I am opposed to this proposal at this time. Even here he is showing the same kind of attitude and arrogance that got him into a lot of trouble before, with statements such as "Problem is that I'm a brilliant reviewer" and "I think the ban on me helping is simply cutting off one's nose to spite one's face really" showing that he either is unable to or refuses to stop belittling other editors (whether implicitly or explicitly). Considering it appears that his attitude remains unchanged from before, I fear that letting him back even in a limited capacity will result in the resumption of toxicity that greatly hurt the project in the past. Thus, I strongly advise that the status quo remain for now. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 07:15, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry Gerda if the word "toxic" was harsh, but it was a frank assessment of the situation at DYK in the past. Too much drama, too much fighting, and sagging morale took place because of TRM's comments (whether directly or indirectly). Sometimes you need to be direct to the point to get your feelings across, even if the words sound harsh. I would only be open for TRM to return to DYK if he can promise and prove that his prior attitude problems will no longer arise. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 07:35, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Even here in this very discussion, TRM is still showing that snarky attitude. I suggest to the arbitrators to keep this in mind when discussing the matter and making a final decision. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 07:37, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I do not mean to stalk or anything (in fact, the discussion I'm about to link, I had stumbled upon for reasons not related to this ARCA discussion), but I am very disappointed at the behavior TRM showed at WP:ANI#Block of User:EEng and am starting to feel that he is being given special treatment on-Wiki. I'd imagine if a different editor with the exact same attitude did the same thing, they would have been gone long ago, or been given stricter sanctions. As a response to the other comments below, while I'm very much a believer in second chances and I'm not closing the door on supporting this proposal, I will only do so if and only if TRM promises to be more civil, refrain from making insults or other similar comments, and only follow the rules of the proposed motion. Right now, with absolutely no sign that TRM is even willing to change his ways, it greatly disappoints me that people here are even willing to consider this proposal, and I fear that, in spite of this proposal having limited scope, it would still be enough to make the old issues resume. (I personally have my opinions about WP:ERRORS2 and think it should go away, but that's a story for another time, and right now I think it's a necessary evil if only to prevent more drama). Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 21:07, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Banedon

Not a fan of this change. The current text means one can read DYK without encountering TRM. This change means one can again encounter TRM as long as someone has invited him there (and someone is undoubtedly going to do so). Adding this kind of loophole makes me uncomfortable - it makes it harder for anyone trying not to interact with TRM to also read DYK, plus it's a long slippery slope all the way to just not having any restrictions at all. Banedon (talk) 04:31, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

By the way arbs, you can see above that TRM has pinged me again even though I told him not to do so in the past. In other words, the objectionable behavior is still there, it's just at a lower and less visible level. This is also but one example of TRM trying to attract my attention even though he undoubtedly knows I am manually ignoring him and don't care about anything he has to say. I consider this incident another reason not to make this amendment: it makes it easier for TRM to aggravate people. You don't even need to interact in any explicit way, simply reading the same pages is enough. Banedon (talk) 07:22, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Mendaliv: I don't mind TRM participating, I don't mind him rebutting what I wrote, I just do not want him to ping me. That's easy to do: just don't include the tags that ping the person, so in my case I would simply type Mendaliv or @Mendaliv without using the replyto command. It's something that's easy to do, so since he did not do it I interpret his action as hostile. Banedon (talk) 07:43, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Question: why can't anyone who wants TRM's input ask him on WP:ERRORS2, where the restriction already does not apply? Banedon (talk) 23:17, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@valeree if you don't like the atmosphere at WP:ERRORS2, there's a good chance you'll regret this amendment if it passes. ERRORS2 is hosted by TRM, after all. @Mendaliv, this is a long and complex case. If you're looking for evidence that the restrictions are beneficial, I'd suggest the amendments & enforcements section of the main case page (and discussions within), as well as searching AE for results. I was in favor of simple restrictions as well, but Arbcom in general have given signals that they'd rather impose minimally restrictive remedies (see e.g. [3], such as the ones in this case. Banedon (talk) 22:20, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do DYK nominations involve only the nominator and the reviewer? If not, then I don't see why adding this loophole makes sense: any other reviewer or reader is going to be affected as well. Even if the nominator doesn't care, others might. Banedon (talk) 22:20, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Mendaliv: that sounds good on paper but is risky nonetheless, because if someone is annoyed they might not complain but simply not participate. See statements by e.g. Kevin McE and Sunshineisles2 in original case request. Further, fighting these cases & going through dispute resolution takes a mental toll. As you can see from the case request, the alleged problem behavior went on for years before it wound up at Arbcom. Would you fight a case if half the people are going to say TRM has done nothing wrong and you should grow a thicker skin, when the alternative of simply not participating is painless and instant?
@Gatoclass: Looking at the complex discussion you linked, lots of people participated: Ted52, DannyS712, SkyGazer 512, Peacemaker67, Flibirigit, EdChem ... further, it looks like that nomination was for an article created by someone other than the nominator. How would this amendment not lead to people who don't want to interact with TRM having to interact with him? Banedon (talk) 11:29, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Gerda

Since I have been called in the proposal. I have found The Rambling Man (TRM) most helpful regarding the quality of the Main page, and had frequent positive interactions, before and after WP:ERRORS2 was established. Yes, it's sometimes time-consuming to have to supply more references, and I sometimes think that it would be more urgent to write about a person who recently died and has a poor article than supplying references for stage productions which nobody would question anyway, and sometimes I decide to not take the time to search for the refs missing in translated articles, and feel a bit sorry for the readers who then have to go without those facts.

How would it hurt others if TRM did a DYK review for me, or improved "my" hook, when asked? Fondly remembered: Template:Did you know nominations/Johannes Martin Kränzle. I would like the committtee to find a creative way to make that possible. My way would be to let go of all restrictions with probation.

@Narutolovehinata5: I believe that DYK would profit if all participants would refrain from comments about the shortcomings and the attitude of others, which make "judgments about editors' competence" as you said. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:13, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Narutolovehinata5: "Civil and respectful people should not apply the word "toxic" to fellow editors." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:27, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Still same: you paint a rough picture of the DYK scene without any diff. I invite you to read the review I linked above from start to finish. That is what I call a model of constructive reviewing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:41, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@PBP: I ihave interacted with TRM for many years, and found him always civil (to me), and never insisting on a style, just on facts and references. I don't see you much at DYK, so what do you observe? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:24, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@PBP: I am often at ITN, for the sad reason that people die and have insufficient articles (see above, now on the Main page). TRM helped fixing a link to a dab page. At ITN, he also has never been incivil to me. Do you see any incivility in the model review? Do we perhaps have different ideas about civility?

@Sandstein: ARCA for someone else whom you see in trouble is not frequent but has been done, and even successfully so in a seemingly hopeless case, remember? (admittedly a pointed edit on Bach's birthday) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:08, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I made a corner on my talk, User talk:Gerda Arendt#welcome TRM where people who think as I do can sign that TRM is welcome to review their articles, provided this little step to more article quality will be taken. We can make it a template like this one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:08, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mendaliv

As an outside observer, I find TRM's behavior here to be perfectly normal, if a bit jocular. We aren't monks, and this isn't a court.
As to TRM's pinging of Banedon, I believe this complaint is both frivolous and vexatious. Banedon came here voluntarily to oppose TRM. Banedon's statement invites interaction from TRM. I believe that this is yet another case of unilateral WP:KEEPOFF-style declarations that the Committee should rightly hold as unenforceable in this case. Yes, if someone is bothering you, it is reasonable to ask him to leave you be, and it would be rude for that person to not leave you be for a reasonable period of time... but it's not an interaction ban, nor is it a restraining order.
What else is not reasonable is to keep a reasonable request like that in your back pocket for three years only to throw it down as a "gotcha" in a situation like this. It's dirty pool, and moreover, it's a form of incivility to bring oneself into this discussion and then complain when a participant talks to you. It's frivolous and vexatious and should expose the person making such a complaint to sanction if repeated. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 07:39, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Sandstein’s latter point, that the sanction regime that exists is needlessly complex. Just lift the whole thing and if there’s a problem, hand out IBANs and sitebans. I see no evidence that it’s still necessary to prevent disruption even being presented. Rather concerns about having to see his posts. That doesn’t merit continuing this ban. Sandstein’s former point, on the other hand, is moot: TRM is here and is participating as though he wants this specific outcome. So there is standing to proceed. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 09:08, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think what's being missed here is that as part of a preventive (i.e., nonpunitive) regime, there should always be a default position of determining whether the sanctions are still necessary. I posit that this hasn't been done. Most of the argument against loosening these sanctions seems to come from a position of "why should we?" I would counter by asking, "Why shouldn't we?" I've yet to see anybody credibly answer that question here. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:34, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As an alternative suggestion, let's even take this as a chance to try something different: Give TRM six months of this and then revisit it. If there are no credible complaints about his conduct at DYK, then it becomes permanent. If there are credible complaints, rescind it. And of course, if there are serious misconduct issues, rescind it early. This way there's no knock-down drag-out fight over whether and when to reinstitute the previous regime. The Committee has crafted relief from sanctions in this manner before and, if memory serves, it has been successful. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 11:00, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think Banedon and PBP raise some legitimate concerns that we shouldn’t dismiss (though I won’t call all concerns legitimate), but at the same time, these should be balanced against the guiding principles for sanctions (i.e., “preventive” means they must be preventing something). Taken with a genuine interest expressed here by multiple editors (including those with past dust-ups with TRM) in seeing him able to help DYK noms with their noms outside of TRM’s walled garden. When coupled with reasonable safeguards against this reduction becoming permanent without Committee approval (as I suggested in an earlier post), this is both eminently reasonable and quite compelling. I urge the Committee to give TRM a chance here. We do this sort of thing all the time for people who were previously sockpuppeteers. I understand that some may view TRM as toxic or an unblockable, and thereby see granting any request as making that greater problem worse. But it is not the place of the Committee to legislate or to be a roadblock or to supervise quasi-permanent sanction regimes. The Committee’s job is to arbitrate. If TRM is given this chance and bottles it, reimpose the sanction as-is, and possibly sanction him more. If TRM takes this chance and does nothing with it, then the Committee can have it default to being reimposed. And if TRM takes this chance and succeeds, then the Committee has succeeded. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:17, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we might conclude the discussion between TRM and valereee by recalling that we're all giving our own opinions and arguments here, and that valereee is here more as an amicus than a direct participant or party. Thus it's entirely reasonable and normal for their framings of the situation not to line up perfectly despite generally supporting each other's views. And I think that's what's important. Spirited discussion is a positive thing, and even difficulty can be positive. There is a recent research article on Wikipedia that comes to mind that concluded polarization in a topic area was correlated with more neutrality on average, despite the views of the participants that the discussion was difficult. See Shi, Feng; Teplitskiy, Misha; Duede, Eamon; Evans, James A. (4 March 2019). "The wisdom of polarized crowds". Nature Human Behaviour. 3 (4): 329–336. doi:10.1038/s41562-019-0541-6. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by StudiesWorld

While I have at times found TRM to be unnecessarily rude, I have also found that he seems to be the person who cares the most about the quality of the main page. Therefore, I would be very pleased to be able to have him review my hooks at DYK. I believe that the committee should adopt this, so long as the request must come from the article's nominator, updater, or improver. I would also appreciate if the committee would permit general kind requests on all of a user's DYKs, to avoid the need to ask each time. StudiesWorld (talk) 10:39, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by valereee

I have no objection to TRM commenting when requested to. I often find his comments useful, though I also find his definition of “error” loose in the extreme, as it includes non-crucial stylistic preferences different from his own. And I sure wish he could exercise some self-discipline so we wouldn't need this silly rule. ~~TRM, why only the nom?~~ Oh, I see the comment from WTT. Frankly, I'd probably ask ~~you~~ him every time I moved a prep to queue if ~~you~~ he'd be willing to take a quick look at the set before it hit the main page. --valereee (talk) 17:27, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man, I'm not reading this as only doing DYK reviews of nominations awaiting approval when requested. I'm reading it also as doing rechecks when requested. I agree with WTT that it should be someone involved with the nom who makes the request, not just some random drive-by potstirrer, but there are multiple editors involved with every nom. Creator/nominator, reviewer, promoter, and whoever moves prep to queue, at minimum. I would think any of those people at any point would be able to ask you what you think. --valereee (talk) 08:52, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

TRM, not arguing that your reviews aren't good, but to be fair, it's a little circular to argue that none of your reviewed noms receive pushback, hence they're perfect/there's nothing an editor with your skills and inclinations would complain about you've already done what you can to minimise errors on the main page as to reduce the embarrassment for the project every day and in every way, when you're probably the person most likely to be pushing back. --valereee (talk) 16:50, 22 July 2019 (UTC) [reply]

Again, not arguing that your reviews aren't good, and I'll add that I'm also not arguing that they aren't beneficial. They are both good and beneficial, and I wish I could take advantage of them. But the fact they don't get complaints can't be taken as evidence that another person whose eye was similarly sharp, whose willingness to go over the main page with a fine-toothed comb was similarly obsessive, but whose opinions about various issues were different from your own -- say TRM's doppelganger showed up -- that they wouldn't receive complaints. You aren't going to complain about the quality of your own reviews; you've already perfect/good enough to need no criticism done what you can to minimise errors on the main page as to reduce the embarrassment for the project every day and in every way from your point of view. That's all I'm saying. --valereee (talk) 17:16, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh you’re difficult. You realize I’m supporting you here, right? 1. You complain about DYK more than anyone else. 2. You aren’t likely to complain about your own reviews. 3. Your reviews get few complaints. You’re using that to, and I quote, argue that “none of the reviews I have ever done for DYK were objectionable, nor any of my corrections to prep sets were objectionable.” It’s a logical fallacy. If there were someone scrutinizing your noms as closely as you scrutinize everyone else’s -- but there's not -- then perhaps you’d have a different set of data. --valereee (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to work with you when you said "none of the reviews I have ever done for DYK were objectionable, nor any of my corrections to prep sets were objectionable" was not a claim to perfection. A lot of folks might take exception to that, but I backed off, twice, with still no joy. It absolutely is a logical fallacy to claim that no objections = nothing objectionable when the source of the lion's share of objections has been taken out of the equation. --valereee (talk) 20:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely no question on your motivation; it's clearly to protect the project by ensuring errors don't hit the main page. --valereee (talk) 20:34, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Banedon, I don't mind reading there, but I don't want to post there. I don't like the general atmosphere; it feels the opposite of collegial. I probably wouldn't ask for help there. I'd post to TRM's user talk, I guess, but I'd really rather just have all discussion in one spot. So, yeah, being able to ask TRM at T:DYK to do another recheck on a prep set I'd finished rechecking and was ready to move to queue would be useful to me. I'd rather have potential issues pointed out before the thing's just hours from or already on the main page. But as TRM said, baby steps. If all Ritchie is suggesting is that TRM be allowed to do the original review when asked, that's also fine with me. --valereee (talk) 09:29, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Banedon, yes, I'm aware of that. I read there regularly when it was being updated and often made article fixes or suggested main page fixes at ERRORS when I agreed an issue was an error. --valereee (talk) 12:50, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Purplebackpack89

Oppose proposed amendment, and support additional sanctions. The Rambling Man is perennially uncivil to many, many editors and no evidence that his continually uncivil behavior has abated has been provided. If anything, the present topic ban doesn't go far enough. I'd also like to echo the above point that, both in DYK and in other areas, TRM is too interested in making everything conform to one particular style, when conformity to said style isn't necessary. p b p 23:02, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

TRM's attitude in dealing with this arbcom, casting inaccurate aspersions (such as accusing people who oppose the amendment as "harassing") and making snide remarks, steels my opinion that this topic ban is justified, probably even an under-reaction. Furthermore, if you were to peek onto ITNC at almost any time, you'd find TRM badgering other editors, essentially mimicking the behavior that got him the DYK topic ban. p b p 17:35, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt: He is incivil and badgering at ITNC, among other places. Heck, he's incivil in his post here. @Jehochman:@Davey2010: I feel like you're ignoring the reasons this was originally implemented, and the reasons his other sanctions exist. p b p 23:37, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

+1 to Naruto's comment's above where it's said Even here he is showing the same kind of attitude and arrogance that got him into a lot of trouble before and Even here in this very discussion, TRM is still showing that snarky attitude. That's exactly why I feel he cannot be trusted to be civil at DYK, or, frankly, anywhere else. Instead of quelling concerns about his behavior (which should be the main focus of this discussion), TRM has assailed those who criticize him. He seems to be ignoring the guidelines at the top of editing this page, Be professional. Comments that are uncivil or intended to provoke a negative reaction are unhelpful. p b p 11:55, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, small point of order: a quick perusal of my user page reveals that I do have DYK credits, so TRM's statement above is inaccurate. p b p 12:18, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@The Rambling Man: You'd be helping your case a lot more if you provided examples of how you can interact civilly and positively. Because, right now, you're doing the exact opposite. . p b p 16:32, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Mendaliv: Why shouldn't we allow TRM to review DYKs? To succinctly answer your question: reviewing DYKs inherently involves interacting with other editors. These sanctions were put in place because TRM demonstrated serious problems interacting with editors when reviewing DYKs. Since those sanctions were put in place, TRM continues to demonstrate problems interacting with editors in the spaces he is still permitted to use. Because of past problems interacting with editors on DYK, and current problems interacting with editors elsewhere, we shouldn't allow him to review DYKs in order to prevent him from interacting poorly there. p b p 22:55, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sandstein

I don't have an opinion on this particular situation or editor(s), but I'd like to put it to the Committee that (a) that this is an appeal by somebody other than the sanctioned editor, which is normally not allowed; and (b) based on my AE experience, the Committee should refrain from micro-managing editors' behavior through complicated and individualized sanctions with exceptions and qualifiers. Such sanctions are invariably difficult to apply and enforce. Sanctions should be as simple as possible - ideally, a plain site ban, interaction ban or topic ban. Sandstein 08:54, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Masem

semi-involved only due to frequent interactions at ITN, another main page section. What TRM is good at is accuracy and language precision. TRM isn't great in the "process" part of things (that is where past issues have come up), but if you are just asking TRM to review and comment (and asking without contempt for his past actions), it will going swimmingly well and for the betterment of the encyclopedia. Yes, there will be some disagreements on TRM's suggestions but as long as that does not create the same behavior that TRM's concerns on the process had created, we should be okay to add this additional allowance. --Masem (t) 17:58, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jip Orlando

The committee should endorse this request. Some agree with TRM, and some disagree. TRM is an exceptional reviewer (GA, FAC) and cares deeply about the integrity and accuracy of the main page. I don't see there being any trouble with allowing his solicited opinion on DYK items. If he reviews something, and the nominator disagrees with his assessment, the onus is on the nominator. Simple, really. Jip Orlando (talk) 19:27, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jehochman

I’ve had many disagreements with TRM at WP:ITN. I support this request. He should be allowed to comment whenever invited by the nominator. Jehochman ^Talk 21:03, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dave

I too support the request - If TRM's been invited to DYK then he should be allowed to comment there. –Davey2010^Talk 21:10, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Vanamonde93

If a nominator has solicited TRM's input, I see no reason he shouldn't give it, assuming his other restrictions continue to be adhered to.

Also, since we're here, this is probably a good time for someone besides myself to remind TRM that the exemption to his tban is specifically User:The Rambling Man/ERRORS, and not (for instance) his much more visible talk page. Vanamonde (Talk) 04:43, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SchroCat

Why not? If a DYK editor has specifically requested TRM's input into a singular nomination, it would make sense for the good of the encyclopaedia if he is allowed to assist that editor. To those complaining above about TRM in general, just don't ask him to comment on your nom and ignore him - you don't have to get riled just because he has an opinion and you don't like his personal style.

It seems as if many would like a pound of flesh here, rather than anything aimed at improving the standard of the front page. God knows DYK is quality sink normally and the MP would be better off without it, but while it is there, let's try and ensure standards are adhered to, and if TRM's offer takes the pressure off some of the other reviewers, that can only be a 'Good Thing'. - SchroCat (talk) 08:24, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Question from User:MJL

While the motion below is still on track to be passed, I would like to ask how this would affect the decision of Antisemitism in Poland as it still awaits a proposed decision? I know during the workshop period, TonyBallioni suggested a broader remedy be applied to the topic of Antisemitism. Is this related? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:27, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

The Rambling Man: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

The Rambling Man: Arbitrator views and discussion

Comment I don't like the idea of a loophole where someone can ask for comment on the DYKs that they are not invested in, so the only people who should be eligible for such a request should be the DYK nominator... but other than that, I don't object. I'd like to hear other opinions before I support though. Worm^TT(talk) 22:22, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be comfortable with "or to discussions on his own talkpage when his input into a DYK nomination has been solicited." SilkTork (talk) 22:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why can't people who specifically want TRM's input on an article ask either on his user subpage or on the article talk page? Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:38, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, I see, thanks Gatoclass - I originally took the OP's wording about "input" to be more general than that. It would be hard to track 'official' DYK reviews and approvals anywhere but the usual subpages. The subpages for DYK reviews are transcluded onto the nomination page, though - so on the one hand this would allow TRM to participate only by invitation, but on the other hand it would result in others who had not invited him having to work in the same vicinity. Would there be a problem with downstream processes (whoever is picking the hooks, etc)? I haven't done anything with DYK in a long time, but IIRC it often happened that the person doing the choosing would end up making small edits to the hook text, which would then end up getting re-discussed by the nominator or reviewed. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:56, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I definitely see no reason to loosen TRM's restrictions, especially when he can already provide this input at his ERRORS page. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:01, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- If you don't want to use the page for DYK feedback that's your prerogative, TRM, I'm certainly not going to force you to. But I don't see adding a caveat that you may be summoned to DYK pages by anyone for any reason as productive. GorillaWarfare (talk) 21:34, 20 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  - To be clear, I do not support TRM performing the formal "review" step in DYK; he is banned from that, and as I already stated in my first comment, I see "no reason to loosen TRM's restrictions". As I also explicitly said, if he wants to provide input, which does not have to happen within a DYK template, he can do so within the bounds of the restrictions. TRM: I am familiar with DYK, having participated in the process some myself, and I don't appreciate the accusation that I am not paying attention to the comments here, which I have read in their entirety. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:41, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    - And as you are familiar with DYk, you will know that explicit formal reviews can’t be performed in user space. I am not sure how I can be clearer that I do not support you being allowed to perform the formal review step anywhere, and I have not suggested you try to do so in userspace. As for "community consensus", decisions at ARCA are not made by just tallying up the !votes of the people who show up to comment, and you know this. I'm confident that I have been clear enough for my colleagues to comprehend my stance here; hopefully you do as well now. GorillaWarfare (talk) 20:29, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 302: / Line 302: @@
 ::I'm sorry Gerda if the word "toxic" was harsh, but it was a frank assessment of the situation at DYK in the past. Too much drama, too much fighting, and sagging morale took place because of TRM's comments (whether directly or indirectly). Sometimes you need to be direct to the point to get your feelings across, even if the words sound harsh. I would only be open for TRM to return to DYK if he can promise and prove that his prior attitude problems will no longer arise. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] <sup>[[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|t]][[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|c]][[WP:CSD|csd]][[Special:Newpages|new]]</sup> 07:35, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
 ::Even here in this very discussion, TRM is still showing that snarky attitude. I suggest to the arbitrators to keep this in mind when discussing the matter and making a final decision. [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] <sup>[[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|t]][[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|c]][[WP:CSD|csd]][[Special:Newpages|new]]</sup> 07:37, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
+*I do not mean to stalk or anything (in fact, the discussion I'm about to link, I had stumbled upon for reasons not related to this ARCA discussion), but I am very disappointed at the behavior TRM showed at [[WP:ANI#Block of User:EEng]] and am starting to feel that he is being given special treatment on-Wiki. I'd imagine if a different editor with the exact same attitude did the same thing, they would have been gone long ago, or been given stricter sanctions. As a response to the other comments below, while I'm very much a believer in second chances and I'm not closing the door on supporting this proposal, I will only do so if '''and only if''' TRM promises to be more civil, refrain from making insults or other similar comments, and only follow the rules of the proposed motion. Right now, with absolutely no sign that TRM is even willing to change his ways, it greatly disappoints me that people here are even willing to consider this proposal, and I fear that, in spite of this proposal having limited scope, it would still be enough to make the old issues resume. (I personally have my opinions about [[WP:ERRORS2]] and think it should go away, but that's a story for another time, and right now I think it's a necessary evil if only to prevent more drama). [[User:Narutolovehinata5|Narutolovehinata5]] <sup>[[User talk:Narutolovehinata5|t]][[Special:Contributions/Narutolovehinata5|c]][[WP:CSD|csd]][[Special:Newpages|new]]</sup> 21:07, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
 === Statement by Banedon ===

Abstentions	Support votes needed for majority
0	6
1–2	5
3–4	4