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February 27

German to English translation

Can you please translate the following:

[a]ngesichts der in vielen zentralen Fragen letztlich dann doch dürftigen Quellenlage

Thanks. scope_creep (talk) 11:38, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Roughly: "... in view of the sourcing, which for many central issues turned out to be slim after all". Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:15, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

It looks like a partial quote from an academic paper. If that is the case, it means that the questions raised in the research paper were not answered in the source material. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 13:30, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. This is the article Hans Globke scope_creep (talk) 13:36, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

In the future, if you need translations and google translate doesn't suffice, questions of this sort probably belong on the languages refdesk rather than here. Eliyohub (talk) 14:45, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

or at wikt:Wiktionary:Translation_requests. —Tamfang (talk) 07:14, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

This is less a question on de>en translation but a (speculative / loaded) interpretation relating to the 3rd Reich / H Globke / denazification / chancellor K Adenauer. As such, the humanities desk seems more appropriate. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:00, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Also I dont get decent translations there. The best translation I receive are on this desk. scope_creep (talk) 16:13, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

MPs - often threatened. But seldom actually attacked

I gather that it is not uncommon for MPs, in many democratic countries, to receive threatening communications (email, phone calls, whatever) from people who have a bone to chew with something they've done, or are simply mentally ill.

Taking that into account, it strikes me how exceptionally rare actual acts of violence on parliamentarians are.

Yes, we had Gabrielle Giffords shot; but I remember it being quoted then that in all the history of the U.S. since its founding in 1776, I think a grand total of seven(?) Senators or Congresswomen had ever been shot, including non-fatal shootings (and two of those were shot in a duel with each other!) - and this, in a country awash with guns.

In Britain likewise, there was the Murder of Jo Cox, and the stabbing of Stephen Timms. Aside from these two, once again, I am hard-pressed to remember reading of any serious attempts on the life of an MP, despite the exhortations of ISIS to follow Roshonara Choudhrys example. (I'm putting aside attacks by organized Irish Republican paramilitary groups, since they're of a totally different nature from the aggrieved or disturbed individuals I'm thinking of).

In my own country, there has been a grand total of ONE political assassination since the arrival of Europeans - that of John Newman (Australian politician). (The other MPs who were killed were for reasons unrelated to their political offices).

So, in a nutshell, my question boils down to this: given how many enemies politicians make (and perhaps given how disturbed some of these enemies are), how come serious actual attempts to harm them are so exceedingly rare? Eliyohub (talk) 14:44, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Questions that begin with the prompt "why" or "how come" are not really answerable in this forum. We can provide you with references to published data or accounts of political assassinations. However, it looks like you've found much of that already. Questions that begin with "how come", as you have done here, are basically a prompt for speculation. We shouldn't engage in that here. You're bound to mostly get answers that involve people giving their personal opinions, which are worthless. But they will still do so. --Jayron32 15:17, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

By the way, your premise is demonstratedly wrong for the U.S. at least. In U.S. history, 14 U.S. Congressmen and Senators have been killed in office; there have been 12,244 people who have served in Congress in either house. 14/12244 is a murder rate of 112 per 100,000. According to Crime in the United States, the murder rate in the U.S. is 5.3 per 100,000 as of 2016. While that number may go up and down over time, that still means as a rough approximation you are 20 times more likely to be murdered as a member of Congress than someone who isn't. So, your perception that legislators are somehow less likely to be victims of violence is demonstratedly wrong. They are far more likely to be victims of violence than the average person; at least in the U.S. --Jayron32 15:28, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Possible apples and oranges? If the 5.3 murders per 100 000 people is per year (which seems more probable than over an entire lifetime), the the correct comparator would be numbers of elected representatives murdered in any given year. Each one serves for more than a year but less than a lifetime. In order to gain a larger data set, one might consider all the state-level politicians as well as the federal ones. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 16:03, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

(ec)I remember both Airey Neave and Ian Gow being murdered by Irish terrorists. I also remember Louis Mountbatten's murder by the IRA (not an MP, but his career included political roles). We have Category:Assassinated politicians. DuncanHill (talk) 15:32, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I don't see why you would exclude Irish terrorists but include far-right terrorists, like the murderer of Jo Cox. DuncanHill (talk) 15:33, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Loads of people get threats, not just politicians. Managers quite often get threats and at the other end it is practically part of life in some poor areas. I think xkcd: Self-Driving Issues explains why there aren't many actual murders. Most people just aren't murderers. Dmcq (talk) 17:42, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

One British Prime Minister was assassinated - Spencer Perceval in 1812. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:52, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

"By the way, your premise is demonstratedly wrong for the U.S. at least. In U.S. history, 14 U.S. Congressmen and Senators have been killed in office; there have been 12,244 people who have served in Congress in either house. 14/12244 is a murder rate of 112 per 100,000. According to Crime in the United States, the murder rate in the U.S. is 5.3 per 100,000 as of 2016. While that number may go up and down over time, that still means as a rough approximation you are 20 times more likely to be murdered as a member of Congress than someone who isn't. "

Some of the 14 killed Congressmen were not actually murdered:

• John Gallagher Montgomery and John A. Quitman were victims of the so-called "National Hotel disease", apparently a mass poisoning event that affected customers of the National Hotel. It was never determined whether the poisoning was accidental or intentional.
• Edward Dickinson Baker was killed in action, while leading troops in the Battle of Ball's Bluff (1861). He is "the only sitting U.S. senator ever to be killed in a military engagement."
• John M. Pinckney was killed in a riot in Hempstead, Texas, when the riot turned into a confused gunfight.
• Larry McDonald was a passenger in Korean Air Lines Flight 007, which violated Soviet airspace and was shot down by Soviet Air Forces. The Soviets reportedly thought that the Korean airliner was an U.S. spy plane.

In Greece, threats of violence or assassination attempts on politicians are far from rare, but successful assassinations are indeed rare. Our Category:Assassinated Greek politicians covers 7 of the most famous assassinations. The most recent case was Pavlos Bakoyannis (d. 1989) who was assassinated by Revolutionary Organization 17 November (an urban guerrilla organization). Dimadick (talk) 15:08, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Interesting Dimadick, that you don't count probable poisonings, actual and possible acts of war, rioting, and so forth as acts of criminal violence. In any case, the conclusion that serving as a politician is risky stands. μηδείς (talk) 04:18, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

See also List of serving British MPs who were assassinated which lists eight MPs, six of whom were dispatched by Irish terrorists (or freedom fighters, depending on your viewpoint). Alansplodge (talk) 12:59, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't see where Dimadick said anything about those not being act of criminal violence. They only said they were not murders. This was relevant because Jayron32 was comparing the 14/12244 killings to the 5.3 per 100,000 murder rate in the US. If any of these killings wouldn't have shown up in the murder rate, then you aren't comparing like for like. If you want to include other acts of criminal violence that resulted in a death, you should also include the rate for these in the US as well for a fair comparison. Of course if Jayron32 only wanted to set an upper bound, the fact that the actual rate appears to be lower wouldn't matter. There are also other complexities (beyond those already raised in other posts) like whether it's fair to compare the current murder rate to the murder rate for members of Congress of all time considering that the various things that have changed (like what counts as a murder). Nil Einne (talk) 01:11, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Another "see also": Category:Assassinated politicians by nationality. It does seem to be a riskier business than minding one's own business, but difficult to quantify in any meaningful way. Alansplodge (talk) 15:39, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Check also Category:Assassinated heads of government and Category:Assassinated heads of state. The old tale of the Sword of Damocles warns of "imminent and ever-present peril faced by those in positions of power." Some things do not seem to change as the millennia pass. Dimadick (talk) 18:28, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

February 28

SAM Serve America Movement

I found a full page ad in the Kansas City Star today and I am curious about SAM but I am unable to find any reference to this organization on Wikipedia. SAM Serve America Movement seem to be an attempt to create a New Political Party. If that is true I would like to learn more about the organization and it's supporters, contributors, and founders. With all the current new about computer hacking, misleading internet content, and inferred subversion by the Russians I am hoping that Wikipedia can do some research about this subject and if viable perhaps create a place for it in the scope, breath, range, and purview of subject matter.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Skipfoto (talk • contribs)

Here is an editorial written by the organization's founder, which isn't really a neutral source. Here is an interview with the Washington Examiner by a high-ranking member of the group. This Associated Press article has a few sentences on the group. Regarding starting a new article about them at Wikipedia, I think this is right on the line of the minimum threshold for creating an article. There's lots of stuff out there on the web; they have a website of their own that they publish with lots of information, and they have lots of paid press releases out there; but actual independent coverage is superficial and scanty. It would be hard to build an enitre article if we didn't use their own self-written material. It's close, but I'm not sure its there yet. Give it some time to see if more gets written about them; or see if you can find more genuinely independent sources, before setting off to create the article. --Jayron32 15:07, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Translation from German to English

Hi can you please translate the following:

Versuch einer Verallgemeinerung der stetigen nirgend differenzierbaren Funktion Bolzanos

Thanks. scope_creep (talk) 15:50, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

It's an incomplete sentence fragment (maybe the title of a paper or thesis?). "Attempt to generalise the continuous (but) nowhere differentiable function of Bolzano". Or more idiomatically: "A generalisation of Bolzano's continuous but non-differentiable function" (assuming the author succeeded, which is the normal case in a paper). People on the Wikipedia:Reference desk/Mathematics might have even smoother suggestions. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:31, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Hi Stephan Schulz, it is a thesis title by Wilhelm Vauck. That is perhaps why it is considered incomplete. I think the idiomatic version is decent. Thanks. scope_creep (talk) 18:40, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Are infants and puppies and kittens always more expensive to adopt than older children and pets?

140.254.70.33 (talk) 17:46, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Older children and animals are always more expensive to maintain. 92.31.136.24 (talk) 17:59, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

But infants and puppies eventually grow older. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 18:02, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

What's the basis of your question? Where did you get that idea from? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:08, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Well, there is a local cat adoption center. Kittens are placed at a higher price than older cats and cats with disabilities. I presume they have higher demand. Also, Google can provide short excerpts from webpages that answer specific questions, and I notice that babies actually cost more to adopt than older children. I’m aware that there is some sort of stigma with adopting older children and older pets. With pets, I suspect that older pets look less cute than younger pets. For older children . . . some other reason, I suppose. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 20:14, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

No comment on children, but regarding animals:

A cat's average lifespan is like 10 or 15 years. If you get a kitten that's not even a year old, you'll probably get at least 10 years with a cat who at least gets that you're not gonna eat him. If you get a cat that's 9 years old, you might get up to 6 years with a cat who might absolutely hate you. (But adult cats who are used to to the shelter are generally awesome and used to people).

TL;DR: Adult cats probably get marked down for the same reason canned goods near their sale-by date do. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:25, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

The issue with adopting older children isn't so much "stigma"; rather, if an older child is put into foster care, or up for adoption, they often have a traumatic past (physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, neglect), and resulting behavioural difficulties, of the whole spectrum of severity. Ergo, adoption agencies are more "desperate", so to speak, to place them, as opposed to healthy babies, where there are large numbers of potential adopters per baby. I don't know how to source this, so can anyone either confirm or refute? Eliyohub (talk) 11:23, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

I heard the same. Plus, only babies and puppies can be expected to have no "baggage" so to speak. Older children will always know that they are adopted and older pets will always remember their previous life. My girlfriend adopted an adult cat (2 year old) last year and it was reacting extremely to harmless attempts to cuddle because she waas likely abused by her former owner. Only now she slowly adapted to her new life. Most people don't want to deal with that, so the demand is higher for pets (and kids) who are young enough not to have experienced any trauma. Regards SoWhy 11:38, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

So the answer for the OP would be supply and demand. Kind of like this: Would the OP rather spend more for a brand new car? Or spend less on a similar-model used car with a questionable history? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:48, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

It’s not a fair comparison. A used car may be old, but it can be fixable or already in working condition. I’ll probably ask the dealer to give me a test run. Also, cars deprecate in value over time, but if it’s still functional, then it’ll serve the purpose. Some used cars can look and behave exactly like new cars, because they have been well managed and polished. It’s like an old cat at the adoption center who has received all the shots and is spayed/neutered. 140.254.70.33 (talk) 15:21, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

A useful comparison is between articles which are designed to fail (planned obsolescence) and those designed to last a lifetime, which cost slightly more. See [1]. 92.19.174.150 (talk) 16:49, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Expenses and abuse aside, babies (and kittens and puppies) are also desirable to many because they are distinctly different than their older counterparts. Adopting a cat can be very rewarding, but only a kitten does that adorable stiff-legged bounce thing where they seem to be composed of flubber. Adopting a child can be very rewarding, but only an infant exercises some of those base parental instincts and needs (their first word, their first step, etc.) Matt Deres (talk) 17:36, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Expenses, abuse, and cuteness aside, kittens and puppies are priced higher to dissuade adopters who intend to abandon the animal the moment it grows up, a serious issue in animal welfare. Nobody who adopts a nine-year-old cat is going to give it up in six months because it’s no longer cute; probably 3/4 of people looking for free kittens do exactly that. 24.76.103.169 (talk) 00:14, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

"With pets, I suspect that older pets look less cute than younger pets. "

I doubt that. Me and my brother co-own two elderly dogs, which we have raised since they were puppies. They are now 12-years-old and 10-years-old respectively, and we have been told that they are approaching the end of their lives. They still look cute, still love to play and cuddle. But they can get exhausted much more easily.

The main issue with owning elderly pets is that medical expenses for the pet may keep increasing as more health problems appear. Every pet will need a couple of vaccinations per year, plus pills for various conditions. Add conditions like inner ear infections, osteoarthritis (both long-term problems for my male dog), various injuries, surgeries for various conditions, and you might be finding yourself paying a small fortune to your veterinarian. Dimadick (talk) 19:00, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

• I'll echo IP24's point. When my unpedigreed blonde shepherd had pups, my dad advertised them for sale for $50 each. I asked why he didn't just give them away, and he said that people who would be willing to buy them for $50 would be responsible owners. My sister ran into the obverse when she was moving between graduate schools, and trying to sell unwanted items. She had a really crappy dresser which she marked "FREE!" No one would take it. At the end of the day, she marked it $50, and someone quickly talked her down to a more reasonable $40! μηδείς (talk) 00:09, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

March 1

Foreign exchange student vs international student

So, international students are essentially college students who study abroad. Meanwhile, foreign exchange students are high school or college students who study abroad through an exchange program. So, what is a student who studies abroad in a private high school, not through an exchange program, because the parents are wealthy enough to send him/her overseas? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 21:56, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Still an International student, though the article fails to allow for secondary level education. Here's a link to my jurisdiction showing that it's still the same name. Mingmingla (talk) 01:39, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes the international secondary/high school students is a growing market nowadays, I think particularly in the developed English native world (i.e. NZ, Australia, UK, Ireland, Canada, US) as it is for the tertiary sector. E.g. [2] has some statistics for NZ suggesting 15k in 2015. [3] has some statistics from various countries. Nil Einne (talk) 10:21, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Often the implication is that an exchange student will only be studying for one year, and will be staying with a host family one of whose children is studying abroad for a year; while an international student is intending to pursue a full course of study leading to a degree (or other credential/qualification). AnonMoos (talk) 09:31, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

What AnonMoos said. BTW, we do have a not that great article Student exchange program. Note that this will often also affect fees and costs. Depending on how the local education system (of where they're studing) is structured, an international student may find themselves paying significant fees because their education receives minimal or no funding from the government, unless they have some sort of scholarship. A foreign exchange student may only pay the fees, if any, of their local system perhaps along with some contribution to living costs (unless there are subsidised by someone, perhaps a scholarship) and travel other miscellaneous expenses. The exchange programme may also include various 'cultural enrichment' or other stuff intended to help the student gain stuff outside the curriculum of whatever they are studying. There will probably be some level of this for international students, but it may not be such an important component and may also be more focused on helping the student fit in since they may be there for quite a few years, sometimes even workign there. (Often the wealthy parents may not be so interested in the cultural exchange stuff anyway but would prefer their child to focus on what they are studying.) Nil Einne (talk) 09:36, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

• Technically, the term is a furriner. μηδείς (talk) 00:14, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

March 2

What is a "browning shot"? Submarine warfare in the First World War

Reading Lloyd George's War Memoirs, he mentions a "browning shot" a couple of times, in the context of submarine attacks on shipping. Chapter XL, The Peril of the Submarines. "A submarine could not count on firing more than a single "browning shot" as it was at once attacked by the escort..." and later in the same chapter, quoting a report from the Shipping Department, "... a tanker, the Wabasha in the fourth convoy from Hampton Roads, was hit by a "browning shot"." DuncanHill (talk) 03:41, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

The usual meaning is a shot fired at a convoy from a long distance in hopes of hitting something, rather than a shot aimed at a specific target. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 03:54, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

This book by Norman Friedman discusses it in some detail, e.g. results (1 of 10) at this link :

• Friedman, Norman (2011). Naval Weapons of World War One. Seaforth Publishing. ISBN 9781848321007.

—2606:A000:4C0C:E200:7CD4:F70E:645:39E2 (talk) 10:08, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Dictionary of Jargon (Routledge Revivals) by Jonathon Green says:

• browning shot n [Navy] a term from the shooting use of into the brown: a shot fired with no specific target into the middle of a group of ships with the hope of hitting one of them.
• brown, into the, adv [Shooting] to fire into the brown implies an indiscriminate blast into the heart of a covey of passing birds.
• brown 2. v [Shooting] to shoot into the centre of a covey of birds, rather than take a specific target; this usually kills nothing but wounds or harms several birds.

I also found The Encyclopaedia of Sport, Volume 1 (1897), Henry Charles Howard Earl of Suffolk and Berkshire, which says (p. 165): 'Occasionally, without any apparent cause, they will, like Golden Plover, fly past within easy reach, and, keeping very close together, offer a good "browning" shot'. Alansplodge (talk) 10:48, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

• Excellent, thank you all. DuncanHill (talk) 17:08, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Technical problem in ultimate solution?

Kindly look at the cartoon and final solution below [4].As we can see two squares are still vacant, though only these letters are "circled" in the above preliminary solved solutions (and hence only they should appear in the final answer), but then why are more rectangular spaces here where final answer ought to fit ? Is leaving them empty a part of some deeper sense of humor.If so, can someone kindly explain it's meaning ? 124.253.0.50 (talk) 13:30, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

It may be not mainstream enough to make its object obvious. Any way any thing in Art that is not easily identifiable can be difficult to discuss. I would begin with some reflexion starting with Visual rhetoric#Visual rhetoric of text perhaps. --Askedonty (talk) 14:34, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

• This comic is the Jumble. From the looks of it, there was some kind of error when writing this one - they originally planned the answer "HIGH-TECH", then changed it to "HI-TECH" (to make the pun more obvious - it's translating greetings, so it's "hi" technology), I assume. Smurrayinchester 16:42, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is going on here, as on my screen I see four boxes, then a dash, then four more boxes. The letters in the left-hand boxes read HITE and in the right-hand boxes CH, with the two end boxes empty. I see no circles or "preliminary solved solutions". This is a standard arrangement, and one would not necessarily expect all the boxes to be filled. For example, postcodes are entered on a form in this manner (although there may only be three boxes on the right). The outgoing code (post town followed by postal district) is on the left and the incoming code (single digit indicating sub-district followed by two letters which pinpoint a block of up to fifty houses) is on the right. One box may well be empty, because the outgoing code may be four characters (e.g. SW1A 1AA) or three, e.g. CR9 2TA (which was the very first postcode, discounting the trial system used in Norwich). 92.19.174.150 (talk) 18:05, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

It appears to be a puzzle with rules not stated in the image. I don't know whether HITE-CH followed by two blanks field is the stated solution by the puzzler author or an attempted solution by a solver but I think either HIGH-TECH or "HI"-TECH (with quotation marks counting as characters) would be a better solution. I don't know whether they break any unstated rules. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:05, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

• It's a Jumble, as stated, or more precisely, it's part of one. Jumbles are a daily feature in some newspapers. Here's a sample of one. Solving the anagrams at left gives the first-stage answers BLEND, AVOID, CHEESY, and CAMERA. The circled letters are BDAIDHYARA, which is the anagram that must be solved for the final answer. Often this involves a pun, but in this example it's more a reinterpretation of the answer phrase: BAD HAIR DAY.
• But in the newspaper where I see them, when the answer is given the next day, they just print the words–as you see at the bottom of the one I linked to. The format shown at the original poster's link does not occur. The answer "HI-TECH" certainly makes sense as Smurray explains, so it appears there was some sort of error. --69.159.62.113 (talk) 08:32, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. Can you be please kind enough to let me know from which newspaper this is from ? If possible please give me web address that leads to this paper's Jumble (daily/weekly) : OP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.253.3.22 (talk) 16:09, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I found that one using Google Images; it was linked from the web site of the Peninsula Daily News. --69.159.62.113 (talk) 23:31, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

If there was any humor intended I guess the target would be the user trying to get the text moving to the side without any possible result whatsoever. --Askedonty (talk) 21:20, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

I never heard of "Jumbles" before yesterday, though I'm familiar with crosswords and anagrams. What we need is for someone to look at the Denver Post for 19 February and tell us which were the jumbled words and which boxes were circled. 92.19.174.150 (talk) 10:21, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I think Smurray is onto it. It's a joke, parodying the Jumble puzzle (which has been around for decades, though maybe not that widely syndicated). There was a question a couple or three months ago about a Jumble puzzle, which as I recall was also from the Denver Post. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:33, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

And as suggested by a couple of other users, "HI"-TECH is indeed the answer.[5] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:51, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The discussion was Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 October 23#Jumble, which in turn leads on to this: [6]. 92.19.174.150 (talk) 11:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

March 3

Anglo-Norman marriage alliances

Were there any instances of Normans marrying surviving Anglo-Saxon nobles after the conquest of 1066? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:7CF0:3070:54D1:9CE3:EDB3:E387 (talk) 03:35, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Judith of Lens, niece of William the Conqueror, was married to Waltheof, Earl of Northumbria, "last of the Anglo-Saxon earls", in 1070. Rmhermen (talk) 04:25, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Henry I's queen, Matilda of Scotland, was a descendant of the Saxon kings on her mother's side. Rojomoke (talk) 08:54, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

It was quite common, especially among lower-level Norman noble families who had risen through their part in the Conquest and who could consolidate their position by marrying Anglo-Saxon heiresses. One example is the D'Oyly family: Robert D'Oyly I married Ealdgyth of Wallingford, and his nephew Robert D'Oyly II married Edith Forne, another Anglo-Saxon (or Anglo-Danish) heiress. --Antiquary (talk) 11:01, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

David the composer

David Composing the Psalms (folio 1v) 36 x 26 cm Paris, Bibliothèque Nationale

This image is supposed to be the biblical David composing the psalms. My question is, what is the pillar with a golden bucket on top and red ribbon on the right? Bigger image at [7]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:51, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

A torah scroll, cf. File:Dan Shapiro hold a Torah scroll (30340442674) (cropped).jpg or [8]. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 14:58, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I am not convinced of that. While I can see some resemblance, the squared bottom of that pillar does look very architectural, and I think it is actually a pillar. The inscription at the bottom (rather faint) appears to read, in Greek, Eros Bathsheba - rather suggesting that David may have had less holy thoughts in his mind than writing psalms. Though I can't work out the significance of the "bucket" Wymspen (talk) 15:24, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

No, the inscription at the bottom is "Ορος Βηθλεεμ", 'Mount Bethlehem'. No opinion on what the pillar signifies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:06, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Maybe Rachel's Tomb, thought to have been a pillar at the wayside situated at Bethlehem? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

The inscriptions read (from left to right): Βηθλεέμ (town of Bethlehem), Μελωδία (Melodia), όρος Βηθλεέμ (Mount Bethlehem). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:44, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Here it says: Personification of Echo (?) behind a loving cup given as a prize for best singer. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:13, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the interesting replies, "Echo" seems plausible. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:54, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

This discussion indicates only too well the deficiencies in the approach of some editors to the crafting of accurate captions to pictures which they add to articles. The OP says

This image is supposed to be the biblical David composing the psalms

Not a source in sight, reliable or otherwise. A link is provided to a website which gives the description "David composing the psalms from the Paris Psalter, an illuminated Byzantine manuscript produced during the 10th century." How reliable is the website? It's curated by Robin Pierson, a Londoner who writes about American TV shows and says he gets his information from Wikipedia. Our article Paris Psalter has the picture, similarly captioned, but there are no references, apart from a reference to the Bibliothèque nationale, and they describe the picture as David gardant son troupeau.

If we look at the sources, we will see why Future Perfect at Sunrise has recently drawn editors' attention to the deficiencies of their approach. See his comments in the RfC relating to the captioning of the Byzantine flag picture at Mount Athos and these observations made this week:

To my mind, the problem with using pictures as sources is not so much a "reliability" issue as an "OR" issue. And it's not about the medium "image" as such; it's about using sources to back up statements that are not intended as such by the medium's original author. Citing a source on Wikipedia, in a responsible, non-OR way, always means rendering a statement that can be attributed as such, as an intented message, to the original author of the source. If we could prove that the photographer of this picture originally published it with the intention of showing: 'here, she got this order', then it would be okay as a source. Since we can't (and it's highly unlikely they intended any such thing), we are left with a claim of fact that we can't attribute to an author but that we have made up ourselves. We are using the picture not as a source of somebody else's claims, but as evidence for our own claims. That's the very definition of "original research".

- Future Perfect at Sunrise 08:12, 25 February 2018

...Sourced claims always have to be somebody's claims: the intended statements of the original author, not your own. Deriving your own claims from a picture you present as evidence is always OR, no matter how obviously true they might be.

- Future Perfect at Sunrise 11:55, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

We've been here before. Islamic calendar also contains a picture from a manuscript of this period held in the Bibliothèque nationale. Neither manuscript contains any claim as to the nature of the scene depicted, and it is necessary to turn to extrinsic evidence. The Islamic miniature has been captioned "Muhammad prohibiting Nasī’. It's a picture of a man preaching to a handful of people from the minbar of a mosque. Extrinsic evidence demonstrates that the prohibition was delivered in the course of the Farewell Sermon, an incident in the Farewell Pilgrimage, and at the time the Prophet was seated on a camel, on a mountaintop, surrounded by thousands of pilgrims! Turning now to the sources for the picture which is being discussed here, this source says:

The most famous miniature depicts David playing the harp at the side of the seated female figure of "Melody" (illustrated, to the right). Around this central group are the figure of Echo, various animals charmed by music, and even a male figure symbolizing the town of Bethlehem. The whole composition was likely modeled on a Greco-Roman wall painting representing Orpheus charming the world with his music.

This source describes the picture as “David tending his flock (Psalm 151:1-2)” (note the statement that the Greek psalter contains 151 psalms). This source says:

Here he is joined on his rocky perch by the personification of Melody, who leans her left arm casually on his shoulder as she listens to him playing in the shade of a tree. His audience also includes the personification of Mount Bethlehem, a bronzed youth, semi-nude and crowned with a wreath of laurel. A comely nymph, representing a fountain, peeps at David coyly from behind a column supporting a vase of water. Around the musician cluster his animals: sheep, goats, and a dog. The whole scene is placed in a detailed natural setting, in which the viewer can find features such as mountain peaks, shaded ravines, and a stream, as well as all kinds of vegetation, including trees, bushes of various kinds, clumps of grass, and even tall reeds beside the fountain. In a word, the painting presents what modern art historians would call a classical landscape, replete with allusions to antiquity, such as the nymph of the fountain, or the mountain rendered as a handsome youth. And somewhere in the melody of this David there is surely an echo of the harmony of the ancient Orpheus, such as can be seen in a Roman mosaic from Tarsus in Cilicia, where Orpheus sits in a mountainous landscape with the animals clustered around him.

References

Interesting. The Glory of Byzantium: Art and Culture of the Middle Byzantine Era, A.D. 843-1261, page 86, reliable or otherwise, agrees with "composing". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:44, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

The lengthy unsigned contribution above refers to a "World Heritage Encyclopedia" listed as a Wikipedia mirror in Wikipedia:Potentially unreliable sources. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 17:34, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

That text produces no hits using the search engine. Those venturing to edit NeilN's talkpage are met with this message:

Welcome to my talk page! Please add new sections to the bottom of the page. Before posting here, have you read these Wikipedia policies and guidelines?

Verifiability: "Wikipedia does not publish original research. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors."

Reliable sources: Self-published blogs and other user generated content are not accepted as sources on Wikipedia.

Neutral point of view: "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic."

This is the height of hypocrisy. Corrections to the caption of the Islamic miniature are removed by NeilN. The closes of the various RfCs on the issue (which support the edits) are misrepresented, to the extent that NeilN's supporter SPACKlick went onto the closer's talk page to harass him into changing his mind. So the article is now permanently locked. Requests on the talk page are of no avail because NeilN removes them and that page is locked too. Complaints to ANI, ArbCom and Jimbo are reverted and the pages locked, despite Jimbo's specific instruction not to delete the discussions. Requests at RfPP for the article to be unprotected disappear. There is endemic bigotry, something which should have long been extirpated in an age where the Imam of the Finsbury Park mosque saved a van driver who had just run down and killed one of his flock from being beaten to death by enraged worshippers. 31.53.53.125 (talk) 08:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom

Hello everyone. I'm not a megaloman people and i haven't any political ambition, is only curiosity. I'm italian, i was born and i live in Italy, my parents and my ancestor are italian: is possible that i became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom? Because in America to be President you have to born in the territory of USA, if i in the future went to live in Britain, take the british citizenship is possible (ok, unprobabilly but possible) for me to became Prime Minister? I read in the italian wikipedian page about british Premier that he Queen can nominee Prime Minister every person of the world that she think is good (and after, need the approvation of the House of Commons).

Another question: a foreign people (not british) that live in United Kingdom can sign up to Conservative Party?

Thank you very much for the patiente, sorry for my bad english, if you want correct the errors. Don't worry i don't want to be premier.--87.9.133.144 (talk) 16:38, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Assuming you mean the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, theoretically anyone can be appointed to that office, provided they're a citizen and an adult. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:50, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

On the second point, there doesn't seem to be any restriction on foreign citizens joining the UK Conservative Party but "Under the Political Party Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (PPERA) you must be on the electoral register in the UK (excluding the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) in order to make a donation of more than £500" should you wish to do such a thing. [9] Alansplodge (talk) 17:06, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

To become an MP you do not need to be a British citizen, as Commonwealth and Irish citizens are also qualified. See Who can stand as an MP. I am not aware of any restriction on the nationality of ministers. DuncanHill (talk) 17:12, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

You would have to become a member of the Privy Council of the United Kingdom before becoming a senior Minister/Prime Minister, It may have a more restricted citizenship requirement (although I cant find any mention of it on a quick search). MilborneOne (talk) 17:19, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Actually, there is no requirement to be a Privy Counsellor first: it is theoretically possible for someone from a new political party, who has never previously been an MP, to become prime minister in the case of a shock election result. They would certainly become a privy counsellor upon being appointed prime minister, but there is no reason why they should already be one before that election. Wymspen (talk) 16:47, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Various Commonwealth citizens are PCs, as can be seen in Category:Members of the Privy Council of the United Kingdom. DuncanHill (talk) 17:22, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

It is convention rather than law that Prime Ministers have to be UK Members of Parliament, but any party leader who wasn't one but whose party held a majority could be found a seat in double-quick time; Sir Alec Douglas-Home is the only recent example I think; in previous centuries it was common for the prime minister to sit in the House of Lords. According to Can you stand for election? "Citizens of other countries (including EU member states other than the UK, Republic of Ireland, Cyprus and Malta) are not eligible to become a Member of the UK Parliament. There is no requirement in law for you to be a registered elector in the UK". Also excluded are civil servants, policemen, members of the Armed Services, judges etc. as are peers or bishops who are entitled to sit in the House of Lords. Alansplodge (talk) 17:32, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

The British Constitution runs on pragmatics and precedence rather than written laws; AFAIK, there is no legal hurdle to any human on earth becoming Prime Minister of the UK, provided they first go through the few hurdles necessary, such as establishing Commonwealth citizenship. --Jayron32 19:32, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I think you meant precedents, not precedence. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:41, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

The word is "presidents" Jack. Do we really need to beat you Hanoverians in yet another war? μηδείς (talk) 00:20, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

You're right, of course. Any day now, your leader Trump will be staking his claim as President of the United Kingdom. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:34, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

What Trumps a full House? Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 07:26, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Agree that all the obstacles to premiership above can be circumvented in one way or another (application for citizenship, resignation from a proscribed post, election to the Commons etc). Alansplodge (talk) 14:28, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Jan Smuts was a member of the British Cabinet from 1917 to 1919 despite being a citizen of the Union of South Africa and, so far as I'm aware, of nothing else, so perhaps he came closer to becoming PM than any other non-UK citizen. Bonar Law was British, of course, though Canadian-born. --Antiquary (talk) 19:54, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Smuts and Law were both British subjects by birth. DuncanHill (talk) 19:59, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

R.B. Bennett, former prime minister of Canada, accepted a peerage and sat in the House of Lords. And he was born in post-Confederation Canada, though no such thing as a Canadian citizenship had evolved yet.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:53, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

• See also, Conrad Moffat Black, Baron Black of Crossharbour. μηδείς (talk) 00:22, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
• See also Australian peers and baronets, Canadian peers and baronets. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:35, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Along these lines, Good News from the Vatican is a Robert Silverberg story about a robot becoming the Pope, based on some reading of the RCC papacy rules that turned out to allow it. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 21:10, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Similarly, The Vicar of Christ, published about the time of the multiple papal deaths in 1978, deals with a deadlocked conclave that eventually turns to a monk who is a former US chief justice. I found the discussion (whether accurate or not) on the requirements to be pope quite interesting.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:11, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

"The Accidental Pope"[10] was another one of those. The conclave deadlocked and then enough cardinals simultaneously cast "protest votes" for a US fisherman that the fisherman became pope. Not a great book but reasonably entertaining. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 08:19, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

The only British PM not born in Britain or Ireland is Andrew Bonar Law, who was born in New Brunswick...which was a British colony at the time, since he was born before the Confederation of Canada. But he still counts! Heh heh...bonar. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:51, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

"For children, use first names on second reference. For adults, use last names on second reference."

Does Wikipedia have any article related to this popular rule in any way?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:51, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Do you have a source for this arbitrary declaration? I tend to alternate to avoid repetition. I know the sycophants of the ARI require her to be referred to as Ayn Rand whenever she is mentioned, even though her name was Mrs. Alice O'Connor, née Alysa Rozenbaum. μηδείς (talk) 00:27, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

That exact quote is used in The Bloomberg Way: A Guide for Reporters and Editors (Chapter 23 - Words and Terms) by Matthew Winkler, Editor-in-Chief, Bloomberg News (2012). He goes on to say that "The exception is when a child is accused of a crime. Use the last name of the child in that adult situation".

Similar advice from the Telegraph Style Book - Names and titles (the official guide to house style for The Daily Telegraph in London): "Children under the age of 18 are referred to by their forenames and surnames at first mention and by their forenames later. Minors convicted of a crime are, in cases where the courts permit them to be named, referred to only by their surname".

Alansplodge (talk) 14:13, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Georgia_guy -- It's an English-language version of something that would be mainly be expressed by pronoun choice in many European languages (see T-V distinction). I'm not sure we have much on it at Wikipedia, but some of the classic 1970s sociolinguistics papers by Susan M. Ervin-Tripp have little flow-chart diagrams, showing the various circumstances when the use of prefixes such "Mr.", "Dr." etc., or address by surname alone, or address by given name alone, are socially appropriate... AnonMoos (talk) 00:35, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Try asking at WT:MOS since that place is full of style obsessives. One obvious exception to that "rule" is disambiguating between people with the same last name. E.g. from the article Wright Flyer (about the first Wright Brothers powered aircraft), describing its first flight:

Because Wilbur had already had the first chance, Orville took his turn at the controls. His first flight lasted 12 seconds for a total distance of 120 ft (36.5 m) – shorter than the wingspan of a Boeing 747, as noted by observers in the 2003 commemoration of the first flight.[1][4]

173.228.123.121 (talk) 05:27, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

What is "the ARI"? The Times published a guide that defendants in criminal cases, formerly referred to by surname only, were henceforth to be referred to as "Mr ----" (or as the case may be) until conviction. Other papers followed suit. This is reflected in Alansplodge's link. In the case of Harvey Weinstein, however, the Telegraph don't seem to be following their own guidance [11]. 92.19.174.150 (talk) 09:11, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

At a guess, it may be the Ayn Rand Institute, (either that or the Aberdeen Royal Infirmary). I have now added it to our ARI disambiguation page it was already there but I didn't see it! Alansplodge (talk) 10:33, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

March 4

National Flags with Writing

Aside from that of Brazil, do any other national flags have writing on them? —Nricardo (talk) 02:25, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

• I managed to find it List_of_national_flags_by_design#Text. I had been expecting a category, though. —Nricardo (talk) 02:38, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

The category you want is Text. Wymspen (talk) 13:36, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia. μηδείς (talk) 08:17, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Lots - mostly either Muslim countries with a religious text in Arabic, or countries with their coat of arms included on the flag. Afghanistan, Andorra, Belize, Bolivia (one variant), Brazil, Brunei, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Egypt, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Guatemala, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Malta, Nicaragua, Paraguay, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Spain (limiting it to sovereign states recognised as such by the United Nations - you could probably find others if you used a wider definition of a nation). Wymspen (talk) 13:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

The majority of them include into the flag design a separately-designed national emblem, seal, or coat of arms which has the writing. Exceptions to this include the flags of Malta (which includes something which is not a national emblem), Iraq, and Saudi Arabia... AnonMoos (talk) 18:00, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I clicked through the images at this non-reliable source and confirmed Wymspen's list with the exception of Costa Rica. Although Wikipedia says it is the unofficial version, the flag variant I've always seen used for the country is the one without the coat of arms and therefore no text. Not that I've seen it that often.

Flag of Costa Rica shows both variants, with and without the coat of arms. The one with the coat of arms is called the state flag (apparently meaning it is the one used by the government) and the one without the arms is the national flag - though I find the distinction between the state and the nation rather confusing. It is obviously easier, and cheaper, to make the version without the arms for common use, though in most such cases the variant with the arms appears to be the original, and official, flag. Wymspen (talk) 13:10, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Anyway, I just thought I'd note that the most common languages on flags are Spanish (7 Latin American countries, counting Costa Rica) and Arabic (6 Islamic countries, using a variety of script styles). Latin occurs on 4 flags (Andorra, Belize, San Marino, and Spain), Portuguese on one (Brazil), French on one (Haiti), and English on one (Malta). And while they have changed it since, I would like to give a shout-out to the old flag of Rwanda, with its single giant letter R. --69.159.62.113 (talk) 01:44, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

The text on the Flag of Saudi Arabia is the Shahada, an Islamic statement of faith. For that reason, Saudi flags are always made of two flags sewn together back-to-back, so that the text is never shown inside out, which would be disrespectful. Alansplodge (talk) 12:57, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

March 5

I come from X and want to know what Y is

Someone wrote a blog post "I come from Java and want to know what monads are in Haskell"[12] (about a computer topic, details don't matter) and I'm pretty sure the title is a reference to some well known phrase or movie quote or something. Not having luck with web search. Any memories? Thanks. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 05:11, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

The rosettacode.org website is very similar. The difference is you start with a solution to a problem, such as the ABC block problem. Then, you look at the solution in a bunch of different languages. It isn't a code translator because each example takes advantage of the code being used. For example, a solution using array iteration in Java could be translated directly to Matlab. The solution would work. But, a proper solution in Matlab would use vector operations instead of iterating. So, you don't want to show the improper solution based on Java. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 18:43, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

No no it wasn't a programming question. The question is who else said "I come from [somewhere] and I want [something]". I.e. it's about the origin of the quote, that the Java-to-Haskell article title riffed on. Thanks anyway though. 173.228.123.121 (talk) 20:42, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

There's "I'm from Missouri. Show me."--Wehwalt (talk) 21:05, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Poland and the Holocaust

According to a recent amendment to the Act on the Institute of National Remembrance Polish law, it is now a crime to "ascribe Nazi crimes to the Polish Nation or to the Polish State". There is much controversy over it, as pointed in the article. Just a few hours after the law came into force, the Argentine newspaper Página 12 was sued by a Polish campaign group, because it used the term "Polish death camp" (well, the Spanish term for that) in an article of December 2017. See here for details.

Without going into the actual law or the controversy about it, there are a pair of things I did not understand. First, even if Página 12 was at fault, how can an Argentine newspaper be sued under a Polish law? Shouldn't it be subject just to the Argentine law, and the Polish law be in force just in Poland? And second, Página 12 wrote that article in December, before the amendment. Shouldn't this law apply for texts written after it came into force? Can a law be retroactive? Cambalachero (talk) 18:28, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

1) Ministry of Justice: "Art. 55b. Irrespective of the law applicable at the place of commission of the prohibited act, this Act shall be applicable to a Polish citizen as well as a foreigner in the event of commission of the offences set out in art. 55 and art. 55a." 2)"Retroactive application of law is prohibited by the Article 3 of the Polish civil code". If the newspaper article was made accessible after the law came in to effect one could possibly argue that this itself violates the law, but that is just my speculation. --GeCaHu (talk) 19:01, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

"Shouldn't this law apply for texts written after it came into force? Can a law be retroactive?"

Is this some attempt at humour or have you not encountered laws with retroactive effects in your personal life? We have a detailed article on ex post facto law: "An ex post facto law (corrupted from Latin: ex postfacto, lit. 'out of the aftermath') is a law that retroactively changes the legal consequences (or status) of actions that were committed, or relationships that existed, before the enactment of the law. In criminal law, it may criminalize actions that were legal when committed; it may aggravate a crime by bringing it into a more severe category than it was in when it was committed; it may change the punishment prescribed for a crime, as by adding new penalties or extending sentences; or it may alter the rules of evidence in order to make conviction for a crime likelier than it would have been when the deed was committed. Conversely, a form of ex post facto law commonly called an amnesty law may decriminalize certain acts. A pardon has a similar effect, in a specific case instead of a class of cases. Other legal changes may alleviate possible punishments (for example by replacing the death sentence with lifelong imprisonment) retroactively. Such legal changes are also known by the Latin term in mitius." Dimadick (talk) 19:10, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

• Welcome to the modern world of the Internet. Laws are largely written (even new laws, even today) for the world that existed before electronics and before the Internet, and laws like this run smack up into them. It used to be that publishing was a singular act with a distinct time and place. The printed word was an object that had a time when it was created. In the modern Internet world, publishing is a continuous act, which exists in every space on earth at all times from the moment it was created in perpetuity. As soon as someone in Poland accesses the article from the Argentine newspaper, it is being published in Poland at that moment and violating Polish law. The Argentine newspaper would have to prevent its servers from sending a copy of that article to clients in Poland; which is certainly technically possible, in order to be incompliance, else it is publishing an illegal text in Poland. At least, that's how I read the situation. You can see parallels of this sort in the Right to be forgotten laws in the European Union, which compel the entire world to prevent information from being published within its jurisdiction. If the EU can prevent some bit of information, written outside of Europe, from being accessed in Europe, Poland can do the same. --Jayron32 20:55, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

It's worth remembering that while the internet has complicated things a great deal, problems could exist before the internet. Consider libels laws for example. The Berezovsky v Michaels case for example didn't just deal with internet publication, but also circulation of the physical magazine in England & Wales. This appears to have been considered in Dow Jones & Co Inc v Gutnick but no copies were actually circulated there however it suggests it could have been an issue. The English case is controversial because at the time, as I understand it neither plantiff had England & Wales as their primary place of residence and a lot of their business interests were likewise not there and the content also related to stuff outside England & Wales. But in the Australian case, the plantiff did AFAIK primarily live in Australia, and a lot of the businesses were there, and the conduct alleged also AFAIK was primarily in Australia. None of this seems likely to apply to the Argentinian newspaper, but it does emphasise the point that just because the content was physically published somewhere else, doesn't mean it didn't make it to the country where it's seen as a problem. You may then get into issues like whether you ascribe responsibility to the publisher. While I'm not aware of any specific examples, similar issues could arise with temporal issues as well. If a law changes so something you've physically published is now illegal, perhaps you won't have problems due to the publication. But if you continue to sell the publication, you may find that this could be a problem. I don't think any of this really arises much in the Argentinian case, but the point is that while the internet may have greatly complicated things, it doesn't mean these issues couldn't arise outside the internet. Nil Einne (talk) 06:02, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I have an inquiry about the news in Indonesia

With the recent news about gay rights in Indonesia becoming difficult with the law lately, how are transgendered people still able to change gender? Because in wikiedpia's article LGBT rights in Indonesia says people can change gender with judicial approval. But has this changed since the news is happening? Should wikipedia update that section? 184.71.183.70 (talk) 22:13, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

March 6

German pastor arrested for anti-nazi activities and later released

A number of years ago while traveling I read a short autobiographical account by a German pastor of his arrest for anti-nazi activities and eventual release during the Second World War. I cannot remember the name of the author or the book and after considerable searching have not been able to find the book again. It was a relatively short book but described how he wrestled to avoid betraying his principles and his people, but not give the Nazis cause to hold him or punish him. The author was not Martin Niemöller nor Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He was held in a jail or prison and not in a concentration camp. He was regularly interrogated but not beaten or tortured. One of his fellow pastors was executed in the same prison. Can anyone help me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31devaux (talk • contribs) 01:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Hans Asmussen? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:02, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Heinrich Grüber was sent to Sachsenhausen and Dachau, but was released in 1943. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:19, 6 March 2018 (UTC)