Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Images

Fixing images below the default size

This used to be deprecated in the MOS, and it certainly should be (sorry, can't provide a link - I'd be grateful if anyone can). I don't want to re-open the vexed issue of fixing at higher than the default 220px, which we currently deprecate, but like many people I routinely do this, at least for main images in the lead. The case against smaller-than-default images seems much simpler - is there ever a good reason for doing this, for images with a typical aspect ratio? I can't think of one, and have for years removed all examples of "120px" etc that I see, & I don't remember anyone ever complaining. There is an exception needed for images eg 10 times taller than they are wide, but I think the existing text covers that fine. However it gives the clear impression that too small images are fine with the MOS.

Proposals

• A) At the moment we say: "As a general rule, images should not be set to a larger fixed size than the 220px default (users can adjust this in their preferences). If an exception to the general rule is warranted, forcing an image size to be either larger or smaller than the 220px default is done by placing a parameter in the image coding."

I propose changing this to "As a general rule, images should not be set to a larger or smaller fixed size..." (new text in bold). Any objections?

• B) I'd also like to add something specifying that this applies to multiple images, which seem (unfortunately in my view) to be fashionable at the moment. So at the end of the list of bullet points, I'd like to add:

"* Multiple image templates should not be be over-used, and each image should appear at at least the default image size."

Please comment on these below, specifying A & B. Thanks Johnbod (talk) 21:57, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

• Fixed image sizes should be avoided in general, but there are cases where they're appropriate, such as in tables. Exceptions should be exceptional, though, and I think they are covered by the "as a general rule" wording—so, basically, I agree with what you've presented. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:24, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
• I've seen fixed images done on infobox images all the time. I agree that outside tables (which infoboxes technically are) fixing the size should be avoided. --MASEM (t) 22:43, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

  Images in infoboxes count as lead section images, which have always been permitted to be larger - up to 300px wide. As regards images in actual tables, see Rolling stock of the Bluebell Railway#Steam locomotives, where the images are 200px wide, including the upright ones - which makes some table rows excessively tall; compare List of Great Central Railway locomotives and rolling stock#Mainline steam locomotives (175px) or Rolling stock of the Kent & East Sussex Railway (heritage) (150px). --Redrose64 (talk) 22:53, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Can we get away from the usual issue of whether fixed sizes are good, bad, or downright evil, to address the question of whether this page should continue to use language that implies that images fixed small are better than images fixed large? I agree table images are another exception. Johnbod (talk) 03:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. I would oppose both as instruction creep, especially the multiple-image template suggestion, not because I like small images (the opposite is true), but because these decisions should be left to the people writing the page, not imposed centrally. Editors forget that the MoS is just a guideline, and go around trying to force it on articles in which they otherwise have no involvement. Every additional rule creates another weapon. This makes the MoS strongly disliked (e.g. see the recent discussions about creating a central style board), which is unfortunate because it's a very helpful document for style advice. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 00:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

As my comment above. Johnbod (talk) 03:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. This discussion has caused me to discover relative sizing (|upright=) which I didn't know about before but seems preferable to absolute sizing in almost all cases. I had thought that gif animations and bitmap images smaller than the default size needed absolute sizes to allow the animation to work and prevent being resized to larger than the resolution of the image, respectively, but if that was ever true it doesn't seem to be any more. However, there doesn't seem to be a way to use |upright= within {{multiple image}}, and there are probably other cases where absolute sizing is still important, so I wouldn't want to see a blanket prohibition. On the other hand, the same reasons that larger-than-default absolute sizes are bad make smaller-than-default sizes bad as well, so expanding the recommendation about fixed sizes to include smaller-than-default ones seems harmless. If we're going to make this change, it would be simpler to say simply that "as a general rule images should not be used with fixed sizes". The part about whether the size is larger or smaller than the default is a red herring and should be left out; why is using a fixed size equal to the default any better of an idea than the other two cases?—David Eppstein (talk) 00:38, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with Mr Epstein—the wording should be more like "As a general rule, images should not be set to a larger or smaller fixed size..." (I think that addresses SV's concerns about instruction creep as well) Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 03:45, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I have used smaller-than-default-size images on occasions, when the infobox equates or exceeds in length the text on the left. I figure that a smaller image facing that long infobox will be less offensive to the anti-sandwitching purists who believe that no images should ever face a sacrosanct infobox. The only other solution is to place the image below the infobox, and out of view --Lubiesque (talk) 12:07, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - "a larger or smaller fixed size" reduces to "a fixed size", and conciseness is always good. Larger or smaller than what? I'd support "a fixed size" first, the longer version second. In any case, all guidance should discourage fixed sizes except where there is very good reason to use them, as they defeat the user preference (which is more than an aesthetic preference). I just recently learned that even infobox images can specify a proportional size by coding File: syntax for |image= and omitting |image_size=, as here. I think that's generally a Good Thing, not that it warrants an implementation crusade. No opinion as to the multiple images question. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:33, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - Nobody anywhere in this discussion above seems to think that, except for certain exceptions, flouting reader's preferences and setting image sizes to a fixed, specified size in pixels (rather than using relative sizing) is a good idea (despite this reversion). I also agree that the minimum change necessary would be to substitute

As a general rule, images should not be set to a fixed size. If an exception to this general rule is warranted, forcing an image size to be either larger or smaller than the 220px default is done by placing a parameter in the image coding.

for the current advice. BushelCandle (talk) 20:59, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

{{Images}}

template:Images has been proposed for deletion, see Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2015_October_12#Template:Images -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 03:45, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Left placement - inaccurate guidance

In most cases, images should be right justified on pages, which is the default placement.

To my ears, "most cases" means well upwards of 50%, probably at least 75%. If this statement reflects community consensus, why do so many good articles (GA) use both left and right placement? Many of those that don't only have one or two images. The above statement is closely followed by:

Multiple images in the same article can be staggered right-and-left.

In other words, the guidance here is: If you think x is better, do it. If not, don't do it. This is not guidance, and the effect would be the same if you removed both statements. Clearly, the community likes the second statement more than the first, and the guidance should be modified to reflect community consensus, regardless of how we feel about the issue individually (this is not a request for opinions about left-right placement). ―Mandruss ☎ 04:49, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Mandruss, did you become aware of this matter because it is addressed on my talk page? On my talk page, I directed Hike The Monicas here to this talk page to discuss this topic. If he is reading this now, he should not continue that discussion at my talk page, especially since it got off track.

As for your "[W]hy do so many good articles (GA) use both left and right placement?" question, many WP:Good and WP:Featured articles do not comply with each and every guideline, especially when editors go in and change the articles to be a certain way well after the article reached its WP:Good or WP:Featured status. For this case, what proof is there that "the community likes the second statement more than the first"? And why would you start this section and then state "this is not a request for opinions about the issue"? People are obviously going to weigh in on this matter here at this talk page if they want to. Flyer22 (talk) 05:02, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

It used to be the case that articles with all images on the right would be criticised at FA, & pressured to change. I'm not sure this still applies. Now screen sizes are so varied, the ideal image placement is in rather a mess. Johnbod (talk) 12:31, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

• I knew of nothing about this on your talk page. Sometimes people think about the same issues independently from each other.
• Your point about changes after GA approval is valid, although there must be a ton of that going on. I guess there's no way to really know, short of polling a large number of GA reviewers.
• Maybe an RfC is needed.
• Being clear about my intent here is not an attempt to dictate what is discussed.
• Your tone, frankly, seems a bit confrontational, accusatory, and un-Wikipedian. I came in good faith with an issue that I feel is important, not to get involved in a fight. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:23, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Apparently, my tone these days naturally comes off as "a bit confrontational, accusatory, and un-Wikipedian" to certain editors; that was not my intention in this case. In my experience, though, from what I see on this site day in and out, confrontational and accusatory are very Wikipedian. Flyer22 (talk) 08:01, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

The guidance is to place images on the right, unless there is a reason to place them on the left, such as to stagger images, to avoid stacked images, or to have people face the text, and so on. DrKay (talk) 10:59, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

If that's the intended guidance, it's far from clear. Also, many editors believe that judicious use of left-right placement is more visually attractive, and they would consider that a reason. If the guidance excludes that reason, it should say so. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:13, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

It could be sharpened up. The guidance probably has articles with few images mainly in mind. In particular it might say that the lead image should normally be on the right, which is a very strong convention. Johnbod (talk) 12:31, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I believe that "most" is meant to mean "more than 50%", but not necessarily much more than 50%. For an article with a few images and a lot of text, then having three on the right and one on the left (Mandruss's example of 75%) would be reasonable. However, it's necessary to take all the facts and circumstances into mind, e.g., the presence of an abnormally long infobox.

Is there a difficult dispute going on here? This seems like something that is usually resolved by editors talking it through. And, since someone mention GAs above, then I note that compliance with this guideline is not on the Good article criteria. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:41, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Good point as to GA criteria, and I retract that argument. I was under the mistaken impression that GA represents a de facto community consensus on this issue. Sure, we can go with local consensus on this, which will be unknown to or ignored by many, and will endlessly ping-pong back and forth as the local mix of editors changes. I was hoping to avoid all that as unnecessary. Regardless, the current guidance here does not facilitate a local consensus as it can be used to support either position with pretty much equal strength. Like I said, guidance that nets out as, "Do what you think is best" is not useful guidance and only complicates matters and contributes to instruction creep. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:09, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Band timeline images

A discussion is happening at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musicians#Create Member Section/Timeline Standards related to standards around generated timelines. The suggestions seem to violate the suggested size guidelines. It would probably be best if interested parties could comment to either support the 800 pixel width suggestions or give reasons against them. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:43, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Parenthesis

Are image captions supposed to be in parenthesis? Is this the proper caption "(c.1908)" or is this the proper caption "Tiffany circa 1908".

I'd put "Tiffany c. 1908" myself. Having it all in parentheses is odd. Johnbod (talk) 12:35, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

"Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations should not be illustrated by a gallery of images of group members"

I've gone ahead and expanded this discussion to WP:RfC input, since the discussion below, this, this and the related discussion at Talk:Woman indicate that wider input is needed. My commentary below is the older commentary. The RfC concerns whether or not to expand the guideline that was formed via this discussion to cover all topics about large human populations. Some editors also wonder whether the guideline should only focus on lead images. I will alert the WP:Image use policy talk page and WP:Village pump (policy) to this discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:45, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

__________

Sandstein added the following to the page: "Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations should not be illustrated by a gallery of images of group members, because selecting them is normally original research, and often contentious." It was added per the WP:Consensus formed in this discussion. But that close only concerns ethnic/"race" matters, not all topics about large human populations. This is why I stated at Talk:African Americans, "I'm not sure how the WP:Consensus from that discussion will hold up, given that we still have such galleries at the Man and Woman articles, etc., which are just as subjective, but it's the WP:Consensus for now." Sandstein's wording here at the guideline is broader than the aforementioned close. Furthermore, I don't see how the ethnic/"racial" images are normally original research; in some cases they are, but they are most often based on what WP:Reliable sources state. For example, the inclusion of Mariah Carey as African American, which resulted in a big dispute at Talk:African Americans, is based on sources; this is also made clear by this RfC at Talk:Mariah Carey.

I'll alert Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style to this matter for wider input. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:56, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

My impression from the RfC was that while the question posed was about ethnic groups, the arguments advanced were such that they applied to all large human populations (OR, contentiousness, and the question of whether a select few individuals can visually represent a large group). But if others don't see it that way, I'd have no problem with striking " or similarly large human populations" here.  Sandstein  22:02, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

A possibly useful (local) consensus was reached in this discussion at Hungarians around this issue. Basically, when individuals are specifically discussed and their relevance described, portraits complement the text. But an arbitrary gallery of individuals used simply to represent the group as a whole adds little value and invariably breeds conflict over which individuals should be included. Probably won't defuse all disputes around this issue, but this approach puts the onus on those who insist on including an image of a given person to actually develop the article to include that person's relevance. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 22:08, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support a broad application of this principle (i.e., Oppose removal of the guideline addition, though I'm open to some adjustments, Support removal of the infobox galleries). These "galleries of faces" are not useful and do nothing but generate strife of multiple sorts: Whether a given person qualifies, whether they're exemplary, whether a mixed-background person is having one aspect of their background overemphasized (the central issue in the Carey debate, and one that is not resolved despite suggestions above that it is), who gets to be included, whether the mix is balanced (modern and historical, arts and sciences, political and non-political, male and female, etc., etc.), how many to include, and so on. It's also lead to really excessive treatments (some of the historical versions of the article White people were pretty crazy). These infobox galleries really don't do anything useful for the reader. More often than not they simply distract, by injecting "why is that person included here?" skepticism into their reading experience. I agree with the above that inclusion of people in the text is more helpful, where the context requires a sourced justification for their inclusion. The purpose of infoboxes is to summarize the gist of articles, not to serve a back door for the insertion of OR and trivia. In the end, this is very much like flag icons, and it shares many of the same rationales against inclusion, especially PoV-pushing overemphasis and a propensity to generate frequent conflict that has little to do with making the encyclopedia better.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  12:28, 5 January 2016 (UTC) [Clarified: 15:13, 7 January 2016 (UTC)]
• Support the general principle. The wording could be adjusted to more clearly reflect the idea that it is the "galleries of notables" that are inappropriate; individual images of representative (non-notable) samples from a population are ok. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:46, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Sandstein, Laszlo Panaflex, SMcCandlish and David Eppstein, my thing is: The current wording is overly broad when the consensus discussion was not that broad, no matter that Sandstein states that he interpreted it that way. The word similarly can be interpreted in different ways. I noted that "I don't see how the ethnic/'racial' images are normally original research; in some cases they are, but they are most often based on what WP:Reliable sources state." This means that I don't like the implication in the current wording that it's usually WP:OR that's the issue; that's not the usual issue. If a source exists calling the person a certain ethnicity/"race," then that's not WP:OR. The usual issue is people preferring certain celebrities/notables to other celebrities/notables and thinking that one person is more deserving of inclusion than the other, which includes feeling that one person looks more white or black, etc. than the other person. It has more to do with POV than WP:OR. And this does not only happen with notables. Stating that this gallery matter should only apply to notables will not stop the same POV-pushing from happening to no-names being included in such a gallery. Furthermore, I don't see how one can regulate this. For example, at the White people article, images of notables are still currently there, even after I left this note. If people see that one article (like White people) gets to have such images, they will feel that the other article (for example, Black people) should as well. If it's a gallery of no-names, someone will eventually add a notable person, and then someone will add another and another notable person. And I reiterate that this same type of POV-pushing has happened at the Man and Woman articles. In the case of the Woman article, see this discussion and keep scrolling down; the idea of including a trans woman is constantly at debate at that article's talk page. I don't see that these image matters will be regulated too successfully, if successfully at all, especially if it is applied to more than just ethnicity and "race." And another important aspect is that if an editor feels they are only allowed to add one lead image in cases such as these, that one lead image will become a source of contention as not being representative enough. The desire people have for lead images, for those images to be representative, and to include notables instead of no-names, will likely overrule this guideline. It will be another guideline that barely anyone follows. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:13, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

True, the original discussion was not that broad; that's why we're having another discussion now about applying the same principles more broadly. As for OR, I'm not so much worried about that (as we can generally find sources attributing membership of people in these groups) and more worried about two other issues: (1) the fact that the notable people of a group are not representative of that group, almost by definition, since they're the ones that stand out, and (2) the often-contentious issue of who to include in a space that is generally too small to list all notable members and where many editors are likely to have political reasons for pushing to include some specific people and exclude others. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The fact that the RfC wasn't as broad as what's contemplated now is why we're having the discussion – to see if there's consensus to extend it. The fact that the consensus might not extent that far isn't an argument against the proposition, it's a precondition of it. I can attest to quite a number of NOR issues being raised in debates about this stuff, though I agree NPOV is more commonly implicated. Both being implicated is significant, and even if only one of them was, it would still be reason enough to act against this misuse of infoboxes. If people think that some kind of "gallery of qualifying faces" is needed, they can use the <gallery> feature, in the main body of the article, and provide source citations at each entry in it, to forestall disputes and confusion. I entirely agree with you that limiting these infobox galleries to "notables" would not fix the issue. How would we be including non-notables anyway, if there aren't any articles about them to link to; just pasting in random faces from Commons pictures? I'm skeptical that inclusion of non-notables is a big issue, though I have not trawled every single discussion about these things, so I may have missed something. I agree that there will always be debates about images included in such articles. If they're kept out of a tight-grid infobox, and required to be sourced in the article, this greatly reduces the potential for POV, OR, and related disputes about these pictures. For example, the obvious way to deal with including a transwoman at the Woman article is to have a section for that (a short one linking to the main article on that, per WP:SUMMARY) with one or more photos that pertain, in that section. No issue of "should there be a TG woman in the infobox" ever arises in such a case. It's all a WP:COMMONSENSE matter to me: If people are fighting about some style matter that is not actually important to the encyclopedia, look for a way around it by removing what they're fighting about since it's not essential – like taking a toy away from two children who can't stop squabbling over who gets to play with it. A potential solution for an article like African Americans is to rotate who appears there. We could probably set up a script that auto-rotated them from a pool of images, though that might require a Lua module. Or just nominate a new image of the month, or whatever. For such articles, having one male and one female for representativeness purposes should work, but we don't need a PoV-pushing and OR-infested large collection of images there being included for dubious reasons.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:34, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

(ec) There's always the possibility that guidelines are not followed. But at least in the cases covered by the RfC there was the active desire of many editors to get rid of these galleries because of the problems associated with them, so I think it's worthwile to note the principle here. That doesn't change that case-by-case dicussions may need to be had for many pages. Regarding OR, I too read the discussion as highlighting the OR problem of how to decide who to include, rather than whether certain individuals belong to the group, which is more often verifiable.  Sandstein  22:35, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Per what I stated above, I just don't see this guideline working. There are guidelines that are commonly followed, and then there are the ones commonly ignored. If this guideline were to work, I agree that it would obviously result in a lot less arguments. As for the case-by-case basis matter, that will turn into a "Since that article has a gallery for the lead, this one can too." argument. Again, see my White people article vs. Black people article example above; that aspect will become a reality if the White people article is allowed to have images. As for original research, the WP:OR policy is based on the WP:Verifiability policy; I don't interpret it as being any broader than that. Regardless, per what I stated above, I think that the wording you added needs improvement. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:25, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

What will almost always be OR is the selection of which images are included and the resulting implication that these are the most notable. Very unlikely to find a RS that says "these are the 16 most notable Xs." So the resulting selection is necessarily OR and generally POV as well. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 00:31, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Laszlo Panaflex, I see what you mean, but I don't interpret the WP:OR policy as policing infobox images in that way, except if an editor were to state, "These images should be in the infobox because they are the most notable people according to reliable sources.", or something similar to that. Otherwise, we freely select infobox images, and, per WP:Pertinence, have more leeway with them. Of course, no source is going to state that we need to have a certain number of people in a Wikipedia infobox. In the case of people, a person generally should not be included as white, black, etc. unless a reliable source validates that inclusion. I state "generally" because there is the case of no-names, who are not likely to have sources verifying their ethnicity or "race," and some people will argue that a person is obviously white or black, etc.; I also state "generally" because stock photos have been discussed at WP:Med before, and some editors still are not sure if we should have an image of a person looking like they are suffering from a certain medical condition if they aren't; see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine/Archive 67#Wikipedia to promote stock health photography. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:54, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I would add that it's actually quite common to find "top 10 most-influential [whatever]" articles, and on smaller groups (Trobriand Islanders, whatever) it's pretty easy to use N grams to see who gets mentioned the most in published books. This tells us who is probably a good bet to mention in the article, including in a <gallery>, with sources that they are a member of that group and a considered a notable one. It doesn't do anything about the other problems associated with trying to stuff a grid of tiny, unsourced faces into an infobox. I didn't mention it earlier, but these things, aside from all the other issues, are just pointless noise on smaller monitors. Not everyone has a 27 inch monitor.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:22, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

And these "10 Most Influential" articles, that might be based on X-hits on google, often include negative figures (after all Hitler probably has more Google hits than Goethe) that editors usually delete from "notable galleries" because they reflect negatively on the people in the article. That's where POV comes in to override the supposed neutrality of hit counts and "10 Most Influential" articles. Rare is the gallery that includes a Stalin (as at Georgians). --Taivo (talk) 16:21, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• KeepOppose removal If you have issue with one of the images, get consensus to change that one image. Ethnic looks are diverse, one image does not do the trick. Unless you are going to devise some ethnic test for Wikipedia, like South Africa's "one drop of blood" law or Germany's "1/8 Jewish or less" law, people have the right to self identify for their ethnicity and their sexual orientation. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), your comment seems to be arguing against Sandstein's addition. If so, I think that that using "Oppose" for your comment is better than using "Keep." Also take note that I did not have a problem with the result of the aforementioned discussion (other than it seeming to assert that WP:OR is the main issue). My issues with the matter are noted above. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:25, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Note that Richard Arthur Norton responded with this edit. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:31, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• I would think that the advice to avoid including any photo of a person of race/ethnicity/gender/whatever that is identifiable in these galleries should be avoided for reasons stated above (editors pushing to include a specific person of note), but I'm not sure if outright removal is needed. If you eliminate the use of notable persons, you are left with images to select from that are 1) free and 2) verified to be people that are part of that group, and then the choice should then become a matter of presentation of what are the best images of this combined set. Which while still a potential for editorial dispute will far less be a problem as when notable persons are involved. Obviously, in considering race and ethnicity, editors should strive to cover both genders and all ages with the available pictures, though there's no need to force a specific balance (50/50 male/female, 25/50/25 young/adult/senior etc) just as long as it looks good. --MASEM (t) 00:54, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support. In my experience these galleries end up being nothing more than "Look how wonderful our ethnicity is to have produced such marvellous people !!" They are breeding grounds for original research, improper synthesis, and POV pushing. --Taivo (talk) 01:09, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Taivo, what about the broadness of the current wording and other issues I addressed above? This discussion is more so about the current wording than whether or not we should have a gallery of ethnicity images as the lead image; that matter was already resolved. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:36, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

If you notice my comment is not at all restricted to galleries in the lead or the infobox. I said, "galleries [of people]" without restriction to where they occur in the article. Just because someone moved them from the top of the article to the middle or bottom doesn't negate any of my comments about them. As to whether this principle should extend beyond ethnicity articles, that matter was also addressed in the RfC when it was pointed out that "ethnicity" could not be narrowly construed since it was often impossible to distinguish between ethnicity and nationality. The very same problems with OR, SYNTH, and NPOV apply to other articles about groups of people. --Taivo (talk) 03:12, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

My point is that the current wording is not just for ethnicity, "race" or nationality; it's for any group of people presented as the lead image for the infobox. This means the Man and Woman articles, and other similar articles, as well. I focused on the lead image aspect because the text in the guideline is currently about that, as a result of the consensus discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:08, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Comment, I believe images should only be used in the infoboxes for national groups (such as Americans, French people, Australlians etc.). This way anyone, no matter what original ethnic background(s), can be included. While it may be subjective as to who may be most notable to include in infoboxes, generally a consensus as to who may be included is often times more accurate than not. It is helpful to immediately see some prominent and historic figures (founding fathers, wealthest individual, most sold record labels etc.) as their inclusions should remain aribitrary. It is at a disservice to the reader, to reach a page of a certain national group and not to be able to immediately associate someone with that group to the name of the article. Savvyjack23 (talk) 14:01, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

The problem with distinguishing ethnicity articles from nationality articles is that there is often no line between them, for example, is Ukrainians an ethnicity article or a nationality article? It's impossible to really distinguish between the two and endless discussions on the Talk Page revealed this utter confusion. The RfC clearly conflated ethnicity and nationality in the discussion. And the same issues of OR, SYNTH, and NPOV are relevant to nationality articles as they are to ethnicity articles. --Taivo (talk) 16:44, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support Per Taivo and others. I´ve not participated much in these discussions myself, but read several, Americans (which dropped the gallery on it´s own before this), African Americans, Yemenite Jews, etc. There are always amazing, worthy (infamous, too) people left out and sooner or later this will be commented on again. And again. And again. And then there are the "That person would be insulted to be called that ethnicity" and "That ethnicity is insulted by being represented by that person." arguments. Gaaahhh. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:23, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment I opened a thread here and suggested the elimination of the infobox gallery from Woman article. 64.62.219.165 (talk) 17:07, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support - The consensus to remove the ethnic/race/nationality based galleries should be widened to include other specific human groups e.g., Christian. Those galleries are just meant for presentation rather than educational purposes. We need to deal with it once and for all. STSC (talk) 17:55, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose This sounds like people poushing their own politically correct ideas here instead of sticking with WP:NOTCENSORED. If you have a problem then go with Wikipedia policy such as verifiability rather than because it causes trouble on Wikipedia. Dmcq (talk) 19:28, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Savvyjack23, Gråbergs Gråa Sång, STSC and Dmcq, liked I asked, Taivo, "what about the broadness of the current wording and other issues I addressed above? This discussion is more so about the current wording than whether or not we should have a gallery of ethnicity images as the lead image; that matter was already resolved." I added, "My point is that the current wording is not just for ethnicity, 'race' or nationality; it's for any group of people presented as the lead image for the infobox. This means the Man and Woman articles, and other similar articles, as well." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:08, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

If it is not obvious to you from what I said above I disagree with the blanket removal of such composite images from any any type article on the basis of " because selecting them is normally original research, and often contentious". Wikipedia has policies for dealing with OR and contentious is not a reason to remove anything as per WP:NOTCENSORED. Dmcq (talk) 20:14, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Okay, Dmcq. And, STSC, sorry about pinging you above to answer more so on topic; I see that you did by noting that you support the guideline being widened. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:17, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I hope that my answer was clear. I support extending the consensus to cover any group of humans, where galleries of famous people (or fictitious people) have been created in infoboxes. They are nothing but magnets for OR, SYNTH, and POV pushing. --Taivo (talk) 21:16, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Flyer, I support broadening (from the rfc version) per the current text in the guideline: "Articles about ethnic groups or similarly large human populations". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:27, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support per rationales already supplied by Taivo, Laszlo Panaflex, SMcCandlish, et al. I'm not going to reiterate the copious arguments I've presented on multiple articles and the RfC as to gratuitous galleries of notables. The White people, Man and Woman articles are testimonials as to the absurdism of such galleries. Head shots of 'notables', plus partial shots of statues and other artist's interpretations with allusions to boobs are readily accepted as representative... of what? Oh, but, while WP:NOTCENSORED has been invoked in arguments, it hasn't been invoked for this form of bizarre depiction of what constitutes some of the most obviously defining physical features that differentiate the female of the species from the male of the species (uh-oh, do I hear the rumblings of 'no naughty bits' coming on?). Shall we get our grand-kiddies to draw some pictures of men and women? All I've been able to establish from the "Man" and "Woman" infoboxes is that some women wear paint on their faces, and that men tend to have their hair short. Are we assuming that readers have only been on this planet long enough to figure out that we're not deer or elephants? Broaden the scope, please. [EDIT] While I've considered salient questions posed regarding whether or not it is OR since my !vote, in broader terms POV and distracting from the content of articles still stands (as evidenced in the "Man" and "Woman" articles). The use of galleries to depict examples of self-evident subject matters is antithetical to being encyclopaedic and getting to the point of the content of such articles. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:12, 6 January 2016 (UTC) --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:37, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Sandstein, per what SMcCandlish and I stated above about WP:Original research not being the main problem, do you mind either of us or someone else tweaking the wording in that respect? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:46, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
  • SMcCandlish can speak for himself, of course, but that's not how I read his remarks. My own remarks about OR were limited to the question of whether individuals could be documented to belong to a group (not usually a problem); however, I agree with the proposed wording that *selection* of individuals as being the most representative ones is definitely problematic with respect to original research. Given your filibustering here, I'm skeptical that your "tweaking" is likely to match the general sense of the discussion, so maybe it would be a better idea to be specific about the wording improvement you would like to make rather than asking for license to change the wording ad libitum. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:10, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Since SMcCandlish understands what I mean more often than not and we can have long, drawn out debates together while others will categorize our commentary as WP:Too long; didn't read, I would prefer that he speak for himself. There was no filibustering on my part. And I asked the question once (my "23:46, 6 January 2016 (UTC)" post above), and I indeed meant it as one of us proposing wording here at the talk page first. If people want to remove these galleries, I could not care less. But I do care about following consensus correctly and getting the wording right. I also care about not creating guidelines that people are not likely to follow. I made all of this clear above. And, indeed, people are already objecting to this guideline. SMcCandlish stated above, "I can attest to quite a number of NOR issues being raised in debates about this stuff, though I agree NPOV is more commonly implicated. Both being implicated is significant, and even if only one of them was, it would still be reason enough to act against this misuse of infoboxes." I stated above, "I don't like the implication in the current wording that it's usually WP:OR that's the issue; that's not the usual issue. If a source exists calling the person a certain ethnicity/'race,' then that's not WP:OR. The usual issue is people preferring certain celebrities/notables to other celebrities/notables and thinking that one person is more deserving of inclusion than the other, which includes feeling that one person looks more white or black, etc. than the other person. It has more to do with POV than WP:OR. And this does not only happen with notables." And that is what I mean. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:25, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

It's certainly a WP:POV issue when notables who are perceived to be notorious (i.e., Mussolini for the Italians gallery) are rejected based on the desire to only present those who are deemed to be positive, virtuous representatives of an ethnic group. As an addendum, why is Mother Teresa in the gallery of women in preference to Jiang Qing? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:47, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy, I clearly agree about the POV issues. Per what I stated here and here, I just don't view the WP:OR policy as some others here do. To me, it's like stating that putting together a collage or gallery of anything is WP:OR because of editor selection. And if that's the case, we might as well get rid of collages and galleries altogether. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:54, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

To be clear on this, Flyer22, are we still talking about infoboxes (or collages/galleries placed above infoboxes and usurping the text based information and links in the infoboxes)? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:02, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I thought it was just about the matter of collages or galleries presented in infoboxes, but looking at this discussion and the one below it, I see that it's broader than that. From what I can tell, the current guideline is against any such presentation; so, yes, that's a no to "galleries placed above infoboxes and usurping the text based information and links in the infoboxes." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:08, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I definitely understood the aforementioned close to mean "no collages or galleries of people should be presented as a lead image for ethnicity/racial topics." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:11, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

@Flyer22 Reborn: I've thought on this over lunch - just don't ask me what I ate because I didn't pay attention - and it seems that it's being stretched to an unknown quantity decision. Ultimately, the "White people", "Woman", and the "Man" articles are COMMONSENSE arguments. Per WP:PERTINENCE, the galleries/collages (particularly using wikilinks to articles on notable people, works of art, etc.) detract from the content of the article rather than enhance it. A Google image search would yield a better cross-section of the subject (AKA WP:TITLE) of the article, therefore 'editorial discretion' (as has been invoked on the "Woman" article) is a non-argument for any editor du jour picking out their own selection of images peripheral to the substance of the article.

As to how far this should extend, and whether wires have been crossed regarding the intent in the heat of the interpretation/misinterpretation of where we're actually up to, doesn't really seem to have been established. I'm developing another Wikipedia-induced migraine. Let's see whether it doesn't become a little more focussed once the initial backlash has died down a bit. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:27, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

In reply to Flyer22 Reborn above, I agree with what David Eppstein wrote.  Sandstein  08:05, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Since twice requested to speak for myself on this: I don't agree that OR is less of a problem than POV when it comes to these things. It's a less frequent issue, but often a more severe one, leading to more protracted debate, so it evens out. Analogy: If I have eight broken fingers and one broken leg, I shouldn't seek treatment only for the fingers.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:11, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Well, SMcCandlish (I keep WP:Pinging you because I'm not sure this page is on your watchlist), I am also open to the adjustments you mentioned (seen here and here) in your post above. In other words, I am open you proposing new wording, especially since you commonly work on improving policies and guidelines. Why I don't like the current wording is made explicitly clear above; I cannot agree with the interpretation of the WP:OR policy that I am seeing here, and this is because I don't see it supported anywhere in that policy. What I see when I look at that policy is a policy based on the WP:Verifiability policy. Another thing that I noted above is that the word similarly can be interpreted in different ways; I'm certain that there will be people arguing that similarly in this case does not apply as broadly as Sandstein intended, especially since the consensus discussion he linked to pertains to ethnicity/racial issues. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:18, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't mind if the guideline states that WP:OR can be an issue in the case of these galleries or collages (I've seen ethnicity/racial matters be a WP:OR issue via interpretation); I mind it acting like WP:OR is more commonly the issue or is the prime issue. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:34, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Removal with knobs on WP:IAR is supposedly a pillar of wikipedia and wikipedia is supposed to be not WP:NOTCENSORED. You'll never eliminate controversy over what material to include on wikipedia as its written by human beings and they'll always find something to fight about; however stupid. More and more rules to eliminate areas of controversy will just move the problem around. So a bunch of you with a common pet peeve got together and made a new rule and are now proceeding to run round wikipedia deleting content, chanting "we've got a consensus to do this", well to be frank, you're no better than those who'd argue ad nauseum that Mariah Carey absolutely must be in a gallery. WCM_email 00:51, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support - My earlier comments did not specify a vote, so I’ll clarify here that I support the broad wording of this policy. Where images are used to show characteristics of a group, they should be tightly circumspect and strictly sourced; galleries tend to be neither. It doesn’t seem to me to matter whether the primary problem is OR or POV; as I illustrated above, the two often go together. Bottom line, these galleries add little educational value while breeding endless and unnecessary conflict. Better to provide a tool to remove them entirely, while putting the onus on development of the page to demonstrate the notability of members of the group. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 01:14, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support removal for many of the same reasons given above and because I think it's going to be hard(er) to implement this kind of thing unless it's done across the board for all such infoboxes, such as the ones for religious groups like Christian, British Jews, Maronites, Antiochian Greek Christians, Mormons, etc. Such articles are subject to same problems discussed in the RfC that led to WP:NOETHNICGALLERIES and it should make no difference whether the article uses {{infobox ethnic group}}, {{infobox religious group}} or {{infobox any other type of group}} at all. I also think wording should be added which specifically refers to user-created single-file montages like File:Greatest Chrisitans.jpg being used in "Christian". Images should be incorporated into the article itself in places where they are contextually relevant. There are 72 people pictured in the infobox for "Christians" and I couldn't find a single one that was mentioned elsewhere in the article. That kind of thing seems strange to me, but it also unfortunately seems to be more of the norm when it comes to such galleries. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:54, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support broad interpretation. Other "people group" articles will be prone to identical or similar problems as pure "ethnic group" articles: inclusion criteria (person NN growing up as a citizen of nation A, becoming famous for something as a citizen of nation B and then living most of her life in retirement as a citizen of nation C, or person MM living all his life in state D, but outside what are the current borders of said state), selection criteria (OR and POV) and problems of representativeness (are famous persons of group X really typical for the group?). In addition, the borderline between the types of articles is fuzzy: Some articles are covering both ethnicity and citizenship, others are focussing on one or the other.

Another thing: This edit summary suggests that the text would have to cover "in or in connection with the infobox". --T*U (talk) 14:45, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support. I believe the arguments made at the RfC that Sandstein closed support a broad interpretation; there is no logical reason (IMO) to not apply this concept more broadly. The same discussions about what constitute an ethnicity apply to, for instance, religion as well (I just made the edit to Christian) and, of course, the potential for disagreement and bickering is the same. As for OR--it simply is not always clear what "makes" someone a Christian, but I don't wish to be for this the main point. Note that the image on Christian, for instance, contained 63 images: clearly someone went through a lot of trouble trying to be inclusive (I found a Mormon in there, but not an Old Catholic--I may have missed some, of course), but it's never going to be enough. A broad interpretation is the way to go. Drmies (talk) 19:15, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support removal of inbox galleries per above. I've always thought these were arbitrary, unhelpful, and downright strange. The sooner we get rid of these the better. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Bloodofox, we agree on something! This calls for coffee and cake. Drmies (talk) 15:38, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support per Drmies, RGloucester — ☎ 22:09, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support - In my experience, they're just an endless source of edit warring, and taking collective credit for the achievement of individuals is rather iffy. If someone wants such lists, I guess we have categories for that. Question is, what should replace them? FunkMonk (talk) 23:12, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I suspect that the questions are what they are supposed to represent; whether they enhance the understanding of the subject; whether readers need images to inform them of what "Man", "Woman", "White people" refers to. Do readers not understand such concepts? Do they need diagrams and gratuitous galleries to better inform them of what the TITLE refers to, or are infoboxes not adequate on their own, and are editors so paranoid that the reader may not understand who or what the subject of the article refers to that they need to throw images together so as their own linear reading of a concept might not be mistaken for a post-modernist reinvention? How many of these articles aren't best served by the text in any given infobox? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:04, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

"Nothing" is the easy answer. Other current solutions can be seen at Americans, Christian and Human. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:50, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

We can have some fun talk page conversations on the topic. The image for Humans is just awesome, absolutely stunning in its simplicity. The image for Americans, meh--it's a bit simple and graphic. We'll be looking for iconic images, like Ellis Island or something like that. Or we can have a gallery, haha--with Ellis Island, the Middle Passage, Beringia, Donald Trump... Drmies (talk) 15:45, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

"Nothing" may very well end up being the default for most pages. I tried a nice image of modern Ukrainians here, but another editor rather strongly objected because he never sees anyone who looks like that where he lives. So I removed it. --Taivo (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

That was a good decision and I thank you for it. Drmies (talk) 17:36, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't actually see the compulsion to add an image because there is an image parameter as being 'perfectly' (or even 'well') fulfilled simply because it is perceived to be somehow unexpected or 'different' to what may be construed as the obvious to native English language speakers as being a good solution. Unless we are catering to a different species, readers will already understand what a human is. Using an image for Muskrat is informative in as much as readers looking up a species can immediately understand what that species looks like. As a reader, I have no idea of whether the muskrat depicted is considered to be the stuff of 'pin-up gorgeous' to other muskrats; whether it is male or female; whether the colour of its coat is typical or atypical of preconceived notions of muskrats to any demographic of (human) readers in the know, but I am provided an immediate visual reference in order to establish that it is not an invertebrate, an insect, etc. As we are catering to humans over the age of 3 or 4 yo, human is a concept already familiar to said reader. (I'd also be reticent to give away too much to extraterrestrial beings planning to take over the world!) --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:45, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Looking at the Americans article first, I see that there are currently galleries lower in the article. I know that this current guideline dispute pertains to lead images, but I don't see how having such galleries lower are better than having them as a lead image; I assume that the same disputes will arise from that approach. As for what benefit such galleries can provide... Well, in the case of the African Americans article, it was commonly considered that showing the physical diversity of that community was educational. For example, there are people who look like Mariah Carey (color-wise, and hair-wise in some cases) who identify as African American. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:40, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. I read nothing in the OR and NPOV policies that applies to the selection of images to use in an article. I've never seen any image accompanied by a reliably sourced reference citation to support its inclusion in an article. The policy that applies is the image use policy, which covers the use of montages and galleries. There is nothing on the talk page of that policy that reflects any consensus to change that policy, so the careful wording of this guideline is necessary so that it does not go against the IUP. I weakly support the consensus garnered in regard to ethnic groups; however, the wider application of that consensus is as yet unwarranted and not fully supported. The selection of which images to use in an article, whether it be individual images, a gallery of images or a montage has always been by editorial evaluation for individual articles. I see no reason to tell editors that their deliberations about which images to include/exclude must now be dictated by guideline or policy. Such things should continue to be adjudged on an individual-article basis. Happy New Year! Paine  17:09, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
  • That policy dictates what kinds of images are and are not allowed on Wikipedia on formal grounds. There is no reason to assume that NPOV somehow does not apply to images, even if it says "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view" (my italics); that somehow images can be non-neutral flies in the face of common sense. OR certainly applies to images--for instance, we cannot draw conclusions in text from images, and essentially that's what those galleries do, by implying/signalling that those images somehow represent. TaivoLinguist just pointed to a discussion (Talk:Ukrainians#Photo_gallery_removed_per_Wikipedia-wide_consensus) where this is highly relevant. Drmies (talk) 17:41, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

• Then please show in the OR or NPOV policy where the selection of images requires a reliably sourced reference citation. Then please show where any image on Wikipedia has been selected for use in any article, and the selection has an accompanying reference citation. I'm so sorry, but editors are misapplying those policies, which have absolutely nothing to do with the selection of images for an article. Such selections have always been within the purview of individual article editorial discussion and consensus, and that should not be changed.  Paine  18:29, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

You don't understand, Paine. Inevitably, we cannot post pictures of every woman in existence. Any selection made for this gallery will be coloured by the point-of-view of those doing the selecting, and cannot claim to represent "women" as a category. Wikipedia editors do not get to determine what the "average" woman looks like, or who should represent women as a group. Because the process of selection is so laden with individual opinion, it cannot be said to be in line with our policy on neutral point-of-view, and requires prohibited original research. It is misleading to the reader, does not educate the reader in any way, and only serves to compromise the neutrality of the encylopaedia. RGloucester — ☎ 21:47, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I keep hearing all that about violation of original research and neutral point of view, and yet nobody seems to be able to show me in those policies precisely where the choosing of images requires reliably sourced reference citations, so bottom line is that those policies do not apply to the selection of article images. Said selection must then be up to the custodial editors of individual articles, or failing that, the image selection would be up to whatever dispute resolution process is encouraged. As an aside, we appear to be in violation of WP:MULTI, because an editor decided to open a thread on this very subject at Talk:Woman. One of these discussions should undergo a procedural close and thread merge, isn't that correct?  Paine  22:05, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

"Custodial editors"? I'm sorry, Paine Ellsworth, but I've never heard of any form of policy or guideline even inferring that any editors earn the right to 'custody' of any article in Wikipedia. I'm highly aware of WP:OWN as something that is rightly frowned upon. If I were to start working on the "Woman" article regularly for the next few months, would I become one of that elite group you would consider to be a 'custodian' of the article... or would it take longer? Six months? A year. At precisely what point did you and a couple of other editors become 'custodians' of any articles, and what other privileges does this brand of ownership afford you? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:30, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi, Iryna, that is explained admirably in that link of which you are highly aware under "stewardship", which is perhaps the word I should have used instead of "custodial". Custodian was meant here moreso in partnership with "janitor". One does not have to be an admin to be one of those, correct? (rhet.) Happy New Year! Paine  17:25, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - An editor choosing an image or images they believe best illustrate something is not WP:OR, or we wouldn't have images at all. PeterTheFourth (talk) 04:11, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
• Moderate oppose as too vague - The added wording of "similarly large human populations" is too vague and easily gamed. Specify categories if you wish to expand this further (would gender, sex, age, historical period, sexual orientation, tribes, occupations, etc. be included?). If you wish to ban all photo collages, do that instead. (PS - I am okay with the outcome of the rfc regarding ethnic groups and rather agree with it in that specific case). EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 09:02, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Your proposed wording in the following section certainly goes a long way to eliminating the vagueness. --Taivo (talk) 16:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support broad interpretation, reasons are exactly same as with ethnic groups.--Staberinde (talk) 13:48, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
• Support to end endless and unnecessary EW on this practice which adds virtually nothing to the encyclopedia. I also support this because it cures any possible technical defects arising out of the original RFC. There is a case which can be made under the CONLIMITED policy that decisions at wikiprojects cannot create policy or guidelines unless they specifically say that they're doing that and are adequately publicized (e.g. via the Village Pump and Centralized Discussion). That may have been done in this case, but there's no clear-and-easy way to see that it was. Since there was no clear intent in the original RFC to say that it was for the purpose of making policy, it could have merely been for the purpose of setting the standards for that wikiproject which are not binding on the rest of the encyclopedia. By also adding it here, however, that problem is solved, especially when this RFC confirms it. — TransporterMan (TALK) 19:03, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose after seeing what happened as a result of the previous RFC where articles have been degraded, with illustrations totally stripped, a local consensus for each page should determine what happens, as for many pages there is no controversy. Our aim is not to keep peace between editors, but to assist our readers. This proposal is against the purpose of Wikipedia. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:41, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

@Graeme Bartlett: Could you qualify what you mean when you say that the quality has been 'degraded'. In what way have they been degraded. I'd be interested if you could pick out a couple of the articles you believe to have become less 'informative' and in what manner the reader has been deprived of information. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:06, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Compare https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frisians&oldid=697014025 to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frisians&oldid=698825933. In the version with the gallery you could see at a glance that the article was about a group of people. Now you have to read the text first. You can see from the edit history that removing the gallery has been very controversial, compared to a lack of warring over any content. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:20, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Another example: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bulgarians_in_France&oldid=687933368 versus https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bulgarians_in_France&oldid=698964497 so now the article is illustrated by a slightly misleading coat of arms of Bulgaria, instead of people. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:38, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

"You could see at a glance that the article was about a group of people". No, you could see at a glance that the article was about specific people, not an ethnic group. Most of the images were of people who lived before the 20th century and were all men. So the article was about a bunch of long-dead men and a pretty modern woman. That's not a representative gallery of "Frisians". It's a POV pushing assertion of fame and fortune, which, by the selection of images, must have ceased before the 20th century. --Taivo (talk) 22:53, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, unfortunately you pointed to two examples of what is not representative of an ethnic group, or an ethnic group in the diaspora... but representative of a mixture of 'notables' according to what a handful (sometimes less) of editors agree to be POV preferences for notables. Per WP:TITLE, these articles are about an ethnic group, or an ethnic group in the diaspora. If the TITLE were "Notable Frisians" or "Notable Bulgarians in France" there may be something to consider. That is not the case, therefore how are notables representative of an entire ethnic group, its history, and its culture? The fact that you, personally, consider them to be meaningful and edifying for the reader is WP:PPOV. Their 'notability' alone places them above and beyond the majority of the ethnic group. Decorative ≠ informative. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:54, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose any and all assertions of political correctness as a legitimate Wikipedia principle, regardless of precedent, until I see an unambiguous statement from WMF saying that Wikipedia should be politically correct. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:54, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

The assertion that this has anything to do with "political correctness" is utterly absurd. It has everything to do with violating the solid Wikipedia principles of OR, SYNTH, and NPOV. Your assertion of "political correctness" itself is a violation of WP:AGF. --Taivo (talk) 21:24, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

If what you say were true, you would be making the same argument regarding the images in articles about painters, for just one example. Original research has been committed in the choice of images in Renoir. Who are we to say that that subset of his work is representative of his work? Should we remove all such images because there is widespread disagreement about which ones to include? I think not. The fact that you selectively apply your reasoning to areas involving the hot-button social issues of the day points to a desire for political correctness, whether you would use that term or not. You are misapplying WP:AGF. I am not violating AGF because I don't doubt your sincerity in this matter. One can be simultaneously sincere and wrong, and, in my opinion, you are. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:51, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

The assertion is not absurd at all as the earlier RFC and the mention of discussion at African Americans very much sounds of political correctness. However we don't have to await WMF proclamations, and people here can work out how we behave, and how offended people are allowed to be. This sounds more to me like a power grab with the general overriding the specific. Imposing uniformity where there should be diversity. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:13, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Neither of your complaints (they are not reasoned arguments), address the primary issue--that these galleries are violations of OR, SYNTH, and NPOV in the way that images are selected and rejected in these galleries. Indeed, neither of your posts are anything more than "I don't like it". --Taivo (talk) 22:22, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

The choices of images are not, nor have they ever been since they first began being used as illustrations of examples, original research in any way shape or form to include synthesis of published material, nor can they possibly be construed as in violation of neutral point of view. I don't see how anyone could possibly draw this conclusion if they have actually read those policies with understanding. Both OR and NPOV require the application of reliable, verifiable sources to ensure that any item in question is not original research nor non-neutral point of view. I ask you again, and I will continue to ask until someone can come up with an example, show us one image, just one image that exhibits a reference citation to a reliable source for the express purpose of the selection of that image for use in any article on this encyclopedia. If you cannot find one, then it is preposterous to continue to power push that faulty agenda as "the primary issue". Selection of images is by no means original research nor is it in violation of neutral point of view. Selection of images has always been within the purview of editorial discretion and consensus on an individual-article basis. I resent that the removal of such discretion is being jammed down editors' throats with dubious arguments and statements like Indeed, neither of your posts are anything more than "I don't like it". It's the use of questionable arguments that sounds more like IDLI to me.  Paine  10:17, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

• Support Don't really buy the original research angle, but I do think a broad interpretation is the way to go. Many of the same problems with the ethnic articles exist within these other galleries. AIRcorn (talk) 07:55, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Discussion for RfC

There seems to be a fair amount of support for this so I'd like to start discussion on possible scope or rewording in the event this does get implemented. My primary opposition is that similarly large human populations is too vague and I would love to see this more clearly defined or reworded. MOS is a guideline, but a widely followed one and as such we need to make sure it is as clear as possible. Might I suggest something along the lines of

"Articles about large broad human categorizations (e.g., ethnic groups, sexes, genders, nationalities, etc.) should not be illustrated by a gallery of images of group members, because selecting them is normally original research, based on editors' point of view, and often is contentious."

I'm open to suggestions, but this was my stab at it. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:24, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

That certainly eliminates the vagueness which would allow "New York City" to be classed as a "similarly large human population". In addition to the note about OR, I think that including POV would also be appropriate. --Taivo (talk) 06:31, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I tweaked the wording a bit more. Used broad instead of large. Added POV. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 08:09, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

The argument that selection of images is OR and NPOV is thus far insupportable since nobody has shown even one example where the selection of an image is accompanied by a reference citation to a reliable, verifiable source. Until someone provides such an example, then we have to leave out the part about OR and NPOV, and if those are omitted, then there isn't much of an argument left to support ditching the many-years-old tradition to leave image selection up to editors and consensus on an individual-article basis.  Paine  10:34, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

If you want to argue about whether OR or NPOV applies to this issue, then this isn't the section to make such arguments. This section has been set up in anticipation of a consensus to broaden the definition of galleries so that it can be implemented quickly and efficiently. If you want to argue about whether to expand the definition or not, the section to make that argument is above. Please don't clutter this section with your arguments against expanding the definition. --Taivo (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Why? In a request for comment, that makes zero sense! OR and NPOV clearly doesn't apply, since you can find a reliable citation to demonstrate any individual is a member of a group. The only reason this is being pushed through that actually stands up to scrutiny is that people are concerned about the endless arguments and wikidrama that occurs on some articles. For that reason alone people are prepared to ditch the pillar of WP:IAR and make a rule that will be enforced rigidly on all articles, whether there was conflict before or not, whether removal is to the articles detriment or not. Image selection should be up to editors and consensus on an individual article basis. I realise the futility in arguing against this as so many seem hell bent on imposing it but do yourselves a favour and stop kidding yourselves that OR is involved here, it isn't. WCM_email 16:56, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Please do not hijack this section -- on the possible wording of the policy -- with comments that belong in the section above. The discussion above on whether to institute this policy is currently running about 2-1 in support. Attempting to divert this discussion on the potential wording of that policy truly smacks of "I don't like it." These comments by Paine Ellsworth and Wee Curry Monster should be moved into the section above. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 17:37, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:TPG do not refactor other people's comments. Both comments were about the wording and the reference to WP:OR and WP:NPOV. WCM_email 18:01, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm OK with this wording. I'm not sure about the POV issue, myself, but that's something to be hashed out above.  Sandstein  16:00, 10 January 2016 (UTC)