Talk:Barack Obama

Obama in Internet meme culture

Should be mentioned in the article : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4Oby_omvZs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.168.148 (talk) 11:27, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

No. It is not notable to the subject of Barack Obama himself or his biography. It is both WP:TRIVIA and likely not to matter in two weeks, let alone two decades. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 14:25, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

OBAMA IS A BEAST

Seal

I disagree with the decision to incorporate the POTUS seal on this article and every former President; the seal is large and distracts from the office tab in the infobox. If this were to be incorporated, where would it stop, why not have the Senate seal with every Senator, House seal with every U.S. Rep, and Presidential seal with every President of every other nation. I feel the manual of style of simply having a number of order and office title is enough; I am interested in how others feel about this. Grammarxxx ^{(What'd I do this time?)} 03:36, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Definitely not. It's cute, but it's a complete waste of space. There's nothing informative about it. —Designate (talk) 03:52, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't say "cute" so much as graphically attractive. If its purpose is merely decorative, then it runs counter to The Established Way of Things, it's true. Rivertorch (talk) 06:51, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Drone war is conspicuously missing from article

President Obama has overseen a massive expansion of the use of UAVs (primarily Predator Drones) in the "War on Terror." Drone strikes are frequent in the Pakistani border regions and are also used in Yemen, and to a lesser extent Somalia, against suspected militants. The drone war is a significant part of the administration's foreign/military policy and should be described in the foreign policy section of the article; in my opinion, they merit a brief mention in the opening summary, as this administration has been singular in expanding and promoting their use. If the assassination of bin Laden is worth mentioning in the summary, the assassinations of over 3000 people by drones certainly is.

As far as the foreign policy section goes, should there be a subsection on the drone war itself? It doesn't fit into the already existing subsections. The other option could be a section on the Global War on Terror, summarizing the administration's actions in that regard and including the drone war. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaputa12 (talk • contribs) 18:56, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

While I agree that the expansion of drone use by the Obama administration is notable, I am not sure it is biographically notable. It certainly warrants coverage in Presidency of Barack Obama, but in this article is should be a small mention at best. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:15, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't the same logic apply to the assassination of bin Laden or the increase in troop levels in Afghanistan? It's a policy that Obama has a good deal of personal involvement with. And the article has a section on foreign policy, of which the Drone War is a noteworthy part. Explain the distinction between notable and "biographically" notable; I don't see any definition which would include much of the foreign policy related stuff on this article without mentioning the drone war. It's like having a page on Kennedy without mentioning the Bay of Pigs Invasion. --Kaputa12 —Preceding undated comment added 19:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

(Edit conflicts) I agree that it's worth mentioning. The distinction between "biographically notable" and, what, professionally notable? presidentially notable? seems like a bit of a stretch, since the subject's notability rests primarily on his presidency. Rivertorch (talk) 19:39, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The Libya War is also mentioned in the opening paragraph. If we weren't going to discuss foreign policy and just talk about Obama's personal life, I could see leaving the drones out, but given what's already included in the article it seems inconsistent at best. Kaputa12 (talk) 19:52, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The use of drones should be mentioned in the article. Other presidential acts by Obama have been included in this article. The only issue should be how the use of drones should be added to this article. SMP0328. (talk) 22:25, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

This article is written in summary style. That means it makes more sense to write and source the piece about drones for Presidency of Barack Obama first, and then summarize it here. Incidentally, there is no way you can compare the drone thing with the killing of Osama bin Laden. The latter is more notable by several orders of magnitude. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

By what metric? I think it's ridiculous to label one death as more significant than >3000 deaths. In human terms, the latter is *far* more significant, and in military/strategic terms, I'd bet the drone war has had a far more significant impact on the "War on Terror" than any one assassination, including bin Laden's. "The drone thing" is sustained warfare in multiple sovereign states- that is significant! I hate going for the ad hominem, but it really seems like you don't want drones to be in the article because you like Obama and don't want him to be associated with everyone's favorite flying death robots. SMP0328. is right- the question is not in whether or not the drone war should be included, but how we should include it. I suggest a brief, one clause mention in the opening summary where it briefly lists his foreign policy initiatives. In the "Foreign Policy" section of the article, there should either be a small subsection on the drone strikes or on Obama's approach to the "War on Terror" in general (I'm leaning toward the former). Kaputa12 (talk) 04:22, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

All three of you are right. (And I'm right too!) Yes, the lede should summarize the body of the article. Yes, the "drone thing" is highly notable. (How its notability compares with the "bin Laden thing" right now is hard to say—apples and oranges—but it's highly notable now and its notability is likely to increase markedly over time.) Yes, the issue is how it should be added. I'd say it rates a short, descriptive paragraph giving some reliably-sourced stats and noting the controversy it has engendered, plus a sentence in the lede based on that paragraph. Rivertorch (talk) 07:25, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

The notability of something is defined by reliable sources. You'll find more coverage of Osama bin Laden in reliable sources than you will over the use of drones. Also of importance is relevance to the subject. The use of drones began long before Obama was around. There's no doubt that there has been a marked increase in the use of drones; however, there's also no doubt that increase would've happened regardless of who was POTUS. I think it is fair to say a modest paragraph in the proper context will eventually be needed here, but it should summarize what's in Presidency of Barack Obama. I disagree with the notion that it needs to be in the lede of this article, however, because it isn't (at the moment) a defining aspect of Obama's biography. And let's not be guessing about how it might be more notable "over time", because that violates WP:CRYSTAL. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:37, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I disagree, Scjessey. First, it is NOT a given that the use of drones would have increased regardless of who was president. Another president could very well have decided on a different course of action for any number of reasons. It is no more a given than it is a given that any president would have authorized the operation that killed bin Laden. It is not a given that any president would have increased the use of drones by the some 700% that Obama has. I also disagree on the "defining" nature of the drones. They are getting a tremendous amount of coverage, they are defining things such as his nominations for cabinet and other executive branch posts. His use of drones, both in its massive increase and its use against US citizens without trial are getting a lot of trouble. This has become as defining a facet of his presidency as almost any other we have in this article, including the operation that took out bin Laden, his changed stance on gay marriage, the BP oil spill, gun control, etc. This coverage has not been only recent or ephemeral. We have recent things such as mention in the State of the Union, the revelation of bases in Saudi Arabia [4], UN inquiry [5], to stuff reaching farther back, such as analysis after killing US citizens [6], US university reports on their impacts on Pakistani civilians [7], references to the drone war as "Obama's drone doctrine" [8], large coverage in the NYT [9], and this is all just a smattering. One big thing they all have in common is that this drone war is defined as "Obama's," something he is doing, something about him. This is notable now. We do not have to predict anything. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 15:08, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Agree 100%. Just for the record, while I did engage in a tiny bit of prognostication above, I think I also made the point that the inclusion of the content does not depend on a violation of WP:CRYSTAL—the notability is there now. And notability involves not only quantity of coverage but quality of sources. The use of drones has led to discussion in a variety of fields, ranging from political science to constitutional law to ethics, and there should be academic sources as well as news sources to draw on. Rivertorch (talk) 18:49, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I maintain you are all making a bigger thing out of this than it is. This is something very significant to his presidency, but less significant to his biography. Sure, it should receive some coverage here, but only in the proper weight and only after it has been properly fleshed out in the presidency article. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:03, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Scjessey, our lede includes things such as the signing of the New START arms control treaty with Russia. Now, as far as I can tell, Obama has not made nuclear disarmament a life goal or career. How, then, is the single event signing of that treaty more biographically significant than a doctrine that he has followed over years of his presidency? The content of the drone is a defining characteristic of his presidency (we can certainly say that of his first term without CRYSTAL) and is, therefore, biographically significant as well. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 19:21, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to see some sources say how biographically significant it is, rather some editors who think they know best. There's been lots of arms waving around in the air and hair on fire over the last few weeks over the drone thing, but it has only recently been a major news item. Get it into Presidency of Barack Obama and then bring a proposed text here so we can debate it properly. There's no rush. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:30, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I think you may be asking the impossible. With the exception of stuff from his childhood or something, unless someone is currently writing an biography, I doubt anyone is going to use the sentence "the drone war is biographically significant to the life of Barack Obama." I doubt anyone has for New START. That standard for notability essentially means nothing even mildly contemporary, even if it is something that has gone on for an entire presidential term, can be added to this article. I believe that we have passed that notability test of significance to Obama (yes, things highly significant a job are notable to the person in cases when they are can defined by that job) by the sources that have been presented. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 19:37, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I am not asking for the impossible at all. What I am saying is this: this is a matter that specifically concerns the presidency, so it belongs in the presidency article. Only after that has happened should we consider how it is summarized here by cherry-picking notable aspects and anything that seems biographically significant. For example, George W. Bush did much to help reduce the spread of AIDS in Africa. It was biographically significant because it helped define his image during his second term. And what "drone war" are you talking about? That's just a sensationalist headline for the expansion of the drone program. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:44, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary Break

Clearly, we've reached something of an impasse, and I'm not confident that further discussion of this sort is going to resolve matters. I'd suggest that a carefully written, impeccably sourced passage relating to President Obama's role in drone use be crafted. At that point, we'll have something concrete to consider, and if necessary we can do a RfC to determine where consensus lies. I'm overextended in RL at present or I'd begin the process myself. Rivertorch (talk) 20:06, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

agreed well sourced, notable, executive ordered, and relevant. Darkstar1st (talk) 20:36, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Presidency of Barack Obama first. Then we can talk about what works here. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:04, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be in the minority on this one; everyone else seems to agree that it should be included in this article. I agree that it needs to be in the other one as well, but it's pretty irrelevant what order we do it in. If you think it belongs in the Presidency article, feel free to add it, but don't immediately delete it from this page if someone includes it in an acceptable manner. Kaputa12 (talk) 02:53, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

If it is acceptable to me, I won't delete it. Otherwise, I shall do as I please. And if you think this issue is so important, you should be adding it to the other article. I'm not doing your work for you. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:21, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Why do you exercise veto power over edits to this page? If your opinion is clearly not shared by the majority of people involved in the discussion, why do you think you have the right to override the views of others in favor of your own? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaputa12 (talk • contribs) 19:44, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

He doesn't have "veto power". At least no more than any other editor on Wikipedia that are familiar with guidelines. I think Scjessey has the process correct, even if presented in a somewhat gruff manner. It should be proposed in the Presidency of Barack Obama article, consensus formed on that Talk page to add it to that article, and summarized here. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 20:31, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

That's BS and you know it. What is or is not on another article has no bearing whatsoever on the content we include here. That said, A short mention should be added to the body of this article before it is included in the intro.TMCk (talk) 23:47, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Uhh...No. If I thought it was bullshit, I wouldn't have made the comment. The fact that you seem to disagree doesn't alter the fact that if a Presidential action or policy is significant enough to be proposed in that particular person's biography, it should have already been in the Presidency article. Also, I haven't even seen it proposed to be included in the lede. I think that is way too much WP:WEIGHT for the lede. So I too would have a problem with that. If you have a proposed edit to include a section in the Presidency article, it would be a benefit for any inclusion here is you put it together over there. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 01:50, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Utter nonsense!TMCk (talk) 02:29, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I remember when we decided the original Barack Obama article was getting too big and we broke it up to take advantage of WP:SS. You write the fuller version at Presidency of Barack Obama first and then summarize it here. It makes no sense to do it the other way around. Bear in mind that the drone stuff concerns administration policy. Any coverage here would be more about the political consequences to Obama himself, rather than the bigger picture stuff that people seem to be demanding we mention. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:41, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

• Obviously this should be included on this article. Let's start drafting the section right here. It is extremely easy to find reliable sources on the subject and it is clearly an extremely notable facet of his biography. While we are at it, there's an "update" tag on the War in Afghanistan section; now that he has won his election, I think we could safely update this section. It's been seven months since I placed that tag, and this is supposed to be a featured article. --John (talk) 21:08, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

more Information?

Weren't there somethings about him in internet memes? The user above me was talking about it and also about the "mah boi" meme, shouldn't we add those too?75.171.9.130 (talk) 03:01, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

The reason is that this article is a biography of Obama, and so far this is too trivial to add to the biography.--70.49.74.215 (talk) 05:00, 27 February 2013 (UTC)