Talk:2008 Greek riots/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Comments

I believe that some points that are missing in the article might help toward a better understanding. - Concerning domestic response for instance, I saw no mention of the fact that resignation offers by the administration of the Ministry for Interior following the death of Grigoropoulos were immediately declined by the Prime Minister, a matter that caused widespread criticism. - There is mention of the picture of a policeman waving a pistol circulating the media on December 9, but no mention that this was the day of Grigoropoulos's funeral, where police presence and behaviour outside the burial site was criticised by the media as being provocative, with teargas being thrown, arrests being made and riots erupting in the immediate area of the burial site, during which the pistol raising incident was recorded. - I also think that mentioning the fact that the Ministry for Education decided to keep schools and universities shut for 3 working days following the shooting of Grigoropoulos (in an effort to prevent unrest) might help readers understand why the major part of the university students' official involvement in the events started at the end of the first week and not earlier. - There is no mention of the defendants' statements concerning the personality of Grigoropoulos, only reference to the ricochet claim. However, these statements, widely criticized in Greece, may have contributed to the intensity of events. - Finally, I think the international reader would not understand why christmas trees, particularly the replacement Syntagma square christmas tree, have been under attack unless some additional information is provided. Some reference to the demonstrators' perception of the tree symbolizing the authorities' disrespect for the deceased and for human life, in an attempt to project an image of "social calmness" and promote consumerism, might help.

Good luck with your effort to be objective, I personally wouldn't even try!(94.66.20.18 (talk) 06:12, 26 December 2008 (UTC))

The "citizen's" blog advocating the shutting down of Indymedia is something that I haven't heard about despite keeping informed on the topic and watching the news about the riots almost constantly as I have friends who are taking part in them. Besides, one person's blog is not really something I would consider worthy of being placed in an encyclopedia article. Along those lines, there are dozens of blogs that support the rebellion occurring in Greece right now, should we mention each blog individually? Of course not. Mentioning an anti-Indymedia blog by some individual doesn't seem neutral at all to me. Ikariotis (talk) 23:02, 18 December 2008 (EST)

Boston Globe "The Big Picture" blog has covered the issue in an impressive 2008 Greek riots photo reportage. My suggestion would be to add it to the 'external sources'. — Schlossberg (talk) 16:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Riots in Nicosia ????? Two people were arrested for trying to insight a riot, and a few people protested outside the Greek Embassy, I would hardly call that a riot! http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=42991&cat_id=1 (Note Paphos is a city, Paphos Gate is a place in Nicosia) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.184.215.68 (talk) 15:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Lykos667, please add citations for the things you posted. Even though they are probably true, they are just speculations. PervyPirate (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Greek Indymedia follows strictly the views of anarchists and far-leftists and is therefore not a credible source on the matter. 79.103.187.216 (talk) 19:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

All views shall be presented, even indymedia. Btw, BBC is also possitively oriented towards rightists; and this is evident by the content of its articles. It keeps saying "anarchists", although citizens and students of every ideology are furious with the incident that triggered the protests, and have taken part in them. Hectorian (talk) 19:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

People who randomly burn down apartment buildings and stores kind of are anarchists, and their actions have no valid connection to what the police did or are doing. 88.112.161.124 (talk) 12:29, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

No, people who advocate the philosophy of anarchism are anarchists. What you just described are arsonists, and I'll thank you not to bring your prejudices onto a talk space for an encyclopedic article. Wikipedia has a policy against contradicting itself, and currently the article for anarchism does not mention that proponents burn things down. Please provide citation or just keep it to yourself. --Cast (talk) 00:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

What you are witnessing is anarchy in practise. I don't give a shit what anarchy is supposed to be in theory. 88.112.161.124 (talk) 21:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I think what is being said at the top of this thread is that indymedia are a marginalised distributor of credible material. That they will have their own particular bias cannot be denied, but to say that are not credible, simply because they are marginalised by the mainstream would go against the very reason wikipedia is such an important internet resource. One would only have to point out the fact that the mainstream media are telling people the safest place for their money is in banks, at a time when banks are collapsing, to see that the mainstream media have alternative things to worry about, than simply informing us of the truth. It could be said that then, that since bias in all forms of media exist (whether that be marginalised or mainstream), that no source of media is in fact credible. Wikipedia for me is all about discovering the world from every conceivable angle. To say the perspective of certain groups are invalid perspectives, would be disrespectful to those groups and a disservice those who have a thirst for unfiltered knowledge, and a dishonour to the future generations who will no doubt want to see how history really was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.165.140 (talk) 18:19, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

PervyPirate, would you list the points that you feel need citations? As well as the type of citations needed. If you are looking for citations from right-wing oriented sources, for instance, that would be indeed hard to get. If you are looking for citations from official police investigations that incriminate the police in the matter of illegitimate assistance, that would also be quite hard to find... If you would be satisfied with video's that may serve as evidence that support the "speculations", there may be a few on the internet and I will try to seek them out. Again, these would have to be accompanied by a brief, disputable, explanation. For instance, there is a video of the burning of the memorial to the unknown soldier in Athens during a protest, where hooded individuals clearly seperated from the protesters attack the memorial in full view and easy reach of the by-standing police forces, which do absolutely nothing. Would this be satisfactory as evidence? Furthermore, in reference to the objection on citing an article on Indymedia, if one care's to actually read the article, one will discover that it has a name attached to it, and it is that of a University Professor. It is simply hosted on Indymedia. Please forgive my sloppiness in the ways of the wiki, this is actually the first thing I've ever posted. I felt I had to because your original post seemed to imply that the events that led to the shooting were initiated by rampaging in the Exarcheia area, which not only was completely unsupported by local news but lacks credibility since the area in question is considered home to those that your post denotes as the rampagers. Since then your post has been updated and this flaw has been removed. Nevertheless, I believe events are interpreted based on a background. The background always exists. It seems to me that the background is formed through social dissemination of information. The mass media is the main disseminator. All I did was to post information that is not widely advertised through mass media. Therefore, I understand the need for stating that my post needs some sort of supporting evidence, but I do not think it should be cropped, as this leads to a cropped conveyance = no conveyance of this view. It should be removed alltogether, or left as is while the supporting citations are being found. Lykos667 (talk) 11:54, December 7, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Likos667 (talk • contribs) 21:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

See WP:CITE and WP:V. Mostly one would be looking for news coverage, though other sorts of sources might also be possible. In most cases though, posting a video and asking someone to draw a conclusion from it would not be allowed, per WP:NOR. Dragons flight (talk) 22:16, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Shall we add this Video to the sources?--KaragouniS :  Chat  12:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

It could be suitable as an external link (although I have my doubts, you can barely make out anything that's going on in the video), but definitely not a source Nil Einne (talk) 12:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually it's important, as the police stated there were 3 shots (from which the one ostracised and hit the victim), but in the video we can hear only 2 shots. --KaragouniS :  Chat  13:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Possible useful source for the cite request for first paragraph with perhaps better wording "They claimed they had come under attack by a group of around 30 youths, and that three warning shots and a stun grenade were fired when they sought out the group a few minutes later". though I would think "alleged" would be more NPV than "claimed". This also includes a sentence that "There was also trouble in Berlin, where protesters raised an anarchist flag above the Greek embassy." & "Anger over the shooting has fed into resentment over economic hardships and could topple an unpopular conservative government." which should be able to provide cites for other questions raised here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinSpamer (talk • contribs) 11:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The following article includes a photo of the Berlin banner. MartinSpamer (talk) 11:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The video (cite 5) is interviews & does not appear to justify the comment that there was no clash. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinSpamer (talk • contribs) 11:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

"Manslaughter"

The sources claiming that the guy who shot the kid was charged with manslaughter base the claim on information that was lost in translation. I didn't know there was "premeditated manslaughter." Doesn't taking the time to think about putting a bullet in somebody rule out manslaughter? In Greek, the term "ανθρωποκτονία" literaly means "homicide," but it is translated as "manslaughter" for lack of a word to accurately translate the term "manslaughter" in Greek (as far as I know; I haven't studied law, mind you). In this case, the reports that the police officer was arrested for "premeditated manslaughter" are based on reports (see this for example: "...ποινική δίωξη για ανθρωποκτονία εκ προθέσεως και παράνομη οπλοχρησία, εις βάρος εκείνου που πυροβόλησε...") that he was arrested for "ανθρωποκτονία εκ προθέσεως", literally, "homicide by intent." Intent rules out manslaughter. --Chatzaras (talk) 15:02, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you think it should be changed to "murder" then? Or what? --Drabant (talk) 16:39, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I changed it and it was reverted. --Chatzaras (talk) 16:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Wait, wasn't this Grigoropolis fellow throwing a Molotov cocktail at the cops? Is it murder to shoot such a violent person? Nutmegger (talk) 21:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

From what we know up till now, Grigoropoulos (the 15year-old boy) did not throw Molotov bombs at the police. It is still unclear if he was part of a gang of anarchists or other people that attacked the police or if he just happened to be passing through the neighborhood on his way to a friend... Pel thal (talk) 21:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

If proved to be direct aim-and-hit, it may be also useful to call it either "assasination" or "execution" since the prayer belongs to the armed forces and he was on duty, implying executing permanent-orders about preserving the law-and-order in Excharchia. Sperxios (talk) 09:25, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at the "Murder" section of this page. It might help you. The participants in that discussion agreed for the time being to call it "murder". Pel thal (talk) 09:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

What I am very interested in, but could not find a clear answer, is WHEN were the two policemen arrested. The event happened around 8:55 on Saturday night, and of course the news went around straightaway. IF the arrest took place after the protests (all kinds of them) started, then that implies something (not nice, but very important) about the government and the police on the one hand, and the protests on the other. Could someone please research that? AFloros (talk) 17:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Still, we cannot use our own assumptions and implications and our conclusions in the article. You have to find a reliable source that has made that conclusion to add it, and still it must not have POV intentions...--Michael X the White (talk) 17:18, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Asylum Seeker-Caused Violence

According to The Press Association, it was Asylum seekers that started with the riots. Greece Suffers under Wave of Asylum Seeker-Caused Violence —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicoliani (talk • contribs) 19:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The your link is to the British Nationalist Party, hardly a NPOV source concerning Asylum Seekers. However a similar claim is included link here. MartinSpamer (talk) 11:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

There are many more newsbulletins that have covered it. Here is just one example outside BNP. Asylum-seekers riot in Athens --Nicoliani (talk) 12:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

According to the articles this "Asylum-seekers riot" ended and doesn't appear to be connected with the ongoing riots this article is about. Looks like the BNP is trying to connect the two in a misleading way for its own ends -- Phildav76 (talk) 15:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes it was the Asylum Seekers, bloody foreigners should all go back to Greece!Oh wait...--Xenovatis (talk) 17:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

self-proclaimed

I got rid of the 'self-proclaimed' before 'anarchist' because it is just a press cliche that has no meaning. Do we say 'self proclaimed' socialists, conservatives, or fascists? No. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oblivioid (talk • contribs) 20:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

And I changed "anarchist" to "communist", because it seemed that the organizations surrounding the movement are not anarchists but communist groups. "self-proclaimed anarchist" would make sense to me, but "communist" seems to fit in the general context.--68.118.229.215 (talk) 23:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The Communist groups (the Communist Party in this case) are only organizing *some* of the street ralies and marches. The student base is pretty reliably anarchist and the property destruction, when it's been identified to a cause, has been identified as coming from anarchists. It's pretty easy to tell--the ones running around with the red and black anarchist flags are the anarchists. I don't think you can say that it's one political persuasion covering the entire uprising, but I do think you can say that anarchists represent a massive base within what's going on. The organizations you note are mostly communist simply because the Communist Party does things like run for office, which gets press attention, while anarchist groups don't do things like that. 138.88.194.65 (talk) 18:45, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

If not oneself should proclaim oneself to be an anarchist, who should? The same goes for communist, national-socialist and so forth. How does communists fit the general context better than anarchists? Or just people for that sake? As far as I know (without wanting to dig up more sources at the moment) it is both anarchist, communist and revolutionary socialists - even though the organisations may be mostly communists.--Forkz (talk) 12:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Names & more

Is it legal to refer to their names??? Are the riots anti-police? I think it's just rioting.--Michael X the White (talk) 22:03, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The Greek law may prohibite revealing the names, but Wikipedia is not subjected to the Greek law. Btw, watching the Greek media, I noticed that the names, in this state of events, are said publicly. According to international media, the riots are both anti-police and anti-governmental. Hectorian (talk) 22:30, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Anti-everything really!--Michael X the White (talk) 12:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

It IS illegal to mention the names before the trial reaches a decision. In Greece only low level magazines mention the name. What is really wikipedia? A low level brochure or a serious encyclopedia?Alexikoua (talk) 19:19, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

We're not bound by the laws of Greece. Being illegal there means absolutely nothing. All the more reason to mention any known names. 68.210.59.8 (talk) 06:15, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok. We r not bound by the laws of any counrty. Is it some kind of wiki anarchy uncyclopedian way? I suggest to kill them all and post the pictures of his children too (other sites have already done it)Alexikoua (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC).

Deleted shopkeeper's comments in "Reactions"

Somehow it didn't seem to fit together with all the reactions from public figures and political parties. Feel free to add it again if you think I erred -PervyPirate (talk) 23:02, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

OPAP and Stanleybet

I read elsewhere that a Greek company called OPAP had the government shut down a foreign company called Stanleybet in November 2008. Supposedly, there was some tension that the government could efficiently act at the behest of a megacorporation and eliminate their competition a week after they complained, but this same efficiency is not available to common people (i.e., young people who get abused by the police).

I only know what I have read about this, and I feel confident about writing about this issue on the OPAP page, but I am not sure if this event which happened the month before is part of what the people on the streets of Athens are actually protesting about. Does anyone know anything about this? Any opinions as to whether this issue should be mentioned in this article? Bluerasberry (talk) 23:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the riots have anything to do with the OPAP 'affair'. Seen no indication of that anywhere.    SIS  19:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Contemptible Grauniad whinning and misinformation. As if we had nothing better to do than riot because some british plutocrats wouldn't be lining their pockets with our money. Sad.--Xenovatis (talk) 17:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Demonstrations/marches

Thousands of people are trying to peacefully protest in the biggest cities of Greece while rioters are clashing with the police and cause damage to private and public properties. I can not see this information in the article, instead the way it is written it appears that "hundreds" of rioters (and only rioters as it seems) spread in the streets of Athens and other cities and cause damage. I have no time now but I will proceed in updating the parts that need to be updated and add the appropriate citations. Mind you, many of them will be in Greek.--Elmerfadd (talk) 02:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

"Anarchists"

Άντι-εξουσιαστές could be translated as anti-establishment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.71.220.105 (talk) 03:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not establishment the direct translation of εξουσία. It's rule. In reality αντιεξουσιαστής has the same loose meaning with anarcist. When I first heard it - in Greek - in TV, I thought they just found another word to say anarchy cause they used a lot 'anarchy'. I still have the same opinion. It's all ridiculous though, the philosophical political meaning of anarchy is democratic and does not support the indiscriminate destruction of everything. This is just hooliganism. Yep, 'hooliganism. fs 13:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Anarchism, communism, socialism, etc. are ideologies and/or political views. A group of people can not be characterized as such if they are not part of an official organization that has officially accepted these characterizations. Most of the Greek media call "Anarchists" (Αναρχικοί) or "Αντι-εξουσιαστές" (that could be translated wrongly to anarchists, although I am not aware of any other translation) any group of people that attacks the police or causes riots. There is obviously no evidence or official declaration of their ideology and furthermore their actions are opposite to the beliefs of anarchists. For further information just look in wikipedia.--Elmerfadd (talk) 02:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

on the other hand there is a fairly large ideologically anarchist movement in Greece that does get involved in clashes with the police on a regular basis Oblivioid (talk) 08:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

How about translating it as Anti-authoritarian groups? This term has been used in the Exarcheia article. Pel thal (talk) 10:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Anti-authoritarian is not the same as anti-establishment. The protestors & rioters seem to include many ideologies, some of which can be described as authoritarian. MartinSpamer (talk) 11:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Also to mention the fact that not all anarchists believe in rioting as a productive reaction to either most or all situations. You can't shove all anarchists in to one group. Maybe find out which specific anarchist organizations are involved, and mention them by name instead of just "anarchists".JanderVK (talk) 11:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply they did; I've modified above to improve clarity that the protesters & rioters are two seperate groups. MartinSpamer (talk) 11:50, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I am pretty certain that the vast majority of the many many rioters you see in the videos and pictures wearing black and masks would gladly and proudly accept the label of anarchist. Unlike usually, the media is not exaggerating here, they are anarchists and the anarchist movement in Greece is very strong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.159.233 (talk) 07:40, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

It is a great example of an anarchist/communist popular front similar to the blend of ideologies of the people who fought with Durruti during the Spanish Civil War, and they have a history of coming together from either end of the black/red spectrum including supporters of KKE. You can see from the flag they have which is half black and half red. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.240.134.41 (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The atmosphere in many greek cities has forced the majority of the demonstrators to ware hoods. Furthermore the general chaos has encouraged other groups such us fascists or simple thieves to act. They are all characterized by the media as anti-authoritarian, anarchists and so on. Robbing and braking into small private enterprises is not within the ideological spectrum of any type of anarchist. Using this term would be a huge and unfair generalization. Suggest that all the relevant terms of the article are changed to "youth groups", or just "groups" or "people" or anything with no political or ideological meaning. The description of the acts demonstrates the ideological background of the actors.--Elmerfadd (talk) 22:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Correct. Sperxios (talk) 09:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

False, actually, completely false. The fascist groups are NOT damaging property, they're attacking demonstrators. And any reports you've heard about "angry good citizens" attacking demonstrators has actually been fascists (Verified by photo evidence). Also, it's been stated again and again that it's big business that's getting hit, not small business. I'm absolutely sure that SOME small businesses probably got damaged, but why does this matter and why is this not anarchist according to holier-than-thou american anarchists? (Who I assume you're among for making such comments). They're anti-capitalist, not anti-big business and small bosses can be just as oppressive as big bosses. Also, it's not accurate that all the demonstrators are being called anarchists by the mainstream media. I'm certain they've been wrong a couple time on this, but you all seem to be discounting the fact that there is a HUGE anarchist movement in Greece and when the media says that thousands of anarchists are rampaging in the streets...yes, it could actually be an accurate statement. One of the demonstrations earlier in the week called by anarchists attracted 10,000 people. This isn't the U.S., anarchists actually exist and resist in many parts of Europe and there seems to be a cultural disconnect in understanding that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.159.233 (talk) 06:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

It is entierly correct to use the term anarchists. These kinds of riots are typical for european anarchists. "Communist" would be much less accurate, communists tends to organize in parties, have on average older membership, not to use this kind of "direct action" methods and so on. Unfortunatly, Wikipedia has a super-high overrepresentation of anarchists, which makes it virtually impossible to write anything critical of the ideology or its methods. The article should say anarchists; not using that term is much more misleading than doing so. 89.253.122.71 (talk) 23:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree and they are also scum for being anti-capitalist. Is something really bad in the water there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.210.59.8 (talk) 07:13, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Beginning

What was the single event that sparked the riot? The article doesn't clearly state that, does it? Prottos007 (talk) 04:03, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying it wasn't the police murder of a 15 year old kid? Btw I find it strange that Alexandros Grigoropoulos redirects here, as if the only notable event were the riots that followed his killing, not the killing itself.--92.200.114.223 (talk) 04:24, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this article, and indeed the news reports that I have seen (on Norwegian television), seem to be missing a core background analysis to contextualize this apparently completely disproportionate public response to an alleged extrajudicial killing of a youth by a police officer. Such analyses, or even attempts at analysis, of the wider context of these events should definitely go into a separate section of this article following the lead section. __meco (talk) 08:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it's too early to explain what exactly sparked the riots. Because the neighborhood of Exarcheia, where the youngster was shot, has for many years been known for riots from extremists or anarchists without any particular reason. Perhaps the killing was just a opportunity, seized by people tired of Greek politics and corruption, to destroy the major cities of Greece. This is a personal judgement but it has been discussed in the Greek media as well. Time will tell what the exact reason for the riots was. Pel thal (talk) 10:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

No, we do not have to wait for the final conclusion. These speculations can easily be included, and should be, accompanied by the Greek sources which you are referring to (and then international sources when they emerge). __meco (talk) 10:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Before anyone draws conclussions, must have in mind some things:

• Alexandros Grigoropoulos was not a resident of Exarchia. Furthermore, none says he was even remotely connected to anarchist circles.
• The Exarchia district is not an enclave with the strict meaning of the term. Everyone can go to the bars and stores of that neighbourhood, without him/herself being an anarchist.
• The dozens of thousands of students and youths, that got on the streets and will get again today, tomorrow (and maybe the days after) are not anarchists. As a journalist said last night on Greek TV If Greece has so many thousands of anarchists, why the USA bombed Iraq?.
• In previous years clashes between the police and anarchists had been taking place in Athens and Thessaloniki. In the past 3 days, we have seen riots and clashes all over Greece. And hardly anyone would believe that towns like Mytilini, Corfu and Trikala have an anarchist wave. Also, note where the damages where centered: not houses of ordinary people; no churches; no schools. But banks, car dealerships, commercial districts, ministries, large companies (e.g. OTE, Olympic Airways, *note: both these companies were public property and recently sold to non-Greek private enterprises, despite the will of all, but the government). The rioters know what they target.
• The situation in Greece was in the brick of explossion for months now (if not for years). Economic hardship (long before the recent global crisis), high rates of unemployment, numerous scandals (for which noone was ever even tried!) (ecclesiastical scandal, judicial scandal, CIA abductions scandal, Vodafone tapped phones scandal, Vatopedi scandal, etc etc etc), many many incidents of police violence (for which no policeman ever went to jail - I am sure every Greek will quickly think of at least some such cases in recent years), unwillingness on behalf of the opposition leaders to come into serious conflict with the government, cover-ups, sinking educational system and parody-measures for every social problem. Alexis's murder, in such tragic way, was the spark. The Greek youth felt that, after all the problems afflicted on them, now their own lives were in danger; and the beliefe beyond doubt that none was ever gonna pay for that, none of those in power was ever gonna care.

Of course these "speculations" shall be included! They are in all international media, and recently, in Greek too! Someone must be a fool to believe that a handfull of masked anarchists got to the streets... Hectorian (talk) 12:01, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes.Still, it is a part of the youth that have acted in total and even a smaller part smashing breaking and burning for a few days now. We cannot say that it is the youth rioting; nor that it is just anarchists. We can, however, safely say that it is a part of the youth with left-wing ideas, that is responsible for the riots. And it is right to say that the boy's death was not the reason but, as you say, the spark; but they're not rioting for him anymore.--Michael X the White (talk) 12:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Hectorian for clarifying the situation. I didn't mean that everyone going to or living in Exarcheia is an anarchist; it's just that this neighborhood has always been a target for anarchists. I don't know if anarchists from ideology like to destroy/burn property but what makes journalists speak of anarchists is the fact that, for example, those that invaded the Greek embassy in London ripped down the Greek flag and set up the anarchists' flag. Another word used in Greek media is "koukouloforoi", i.e. people having their faces covered with masks. That is why it is hard to tell what they are; extremists, anarchists, revolting students or ordinary people that feel they have had enough with the recent political scandals. Agreeing with Michael the White, the boy's death was just the spark... Pel thal (talk) 12:50, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

As we speak, the funeral takes place in Athens. There are so many thousands of people there. The cemetery is full, as are the nearby streets. It is all over the news. Most of these people will later go on rioting in Athens. You cannot say that the rioting is not for Alexis! Nor can anyone say that the youth rioting has "left-wing" ideas! Perhaps some people still have not got it... BBC is talking about a rebellion; the Italian media are talking about "city guerillas". And in all of this turmoil, we have a government saying that "no politician is to be blamed", always "the others are responsible", and today they ordered the police to act aggressively...

Still they do not want to admit what is going on, and they are still throwing oil in the fire. Perhaps they have not understood that "violence brings violence" and that you cannot "fight fire with fire".

For my part, I just hope no other innocent will lost his/her life... Hectorian (talk) 13:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've been waiting that order for days... There's more that could happen(Article 48)! Yet still this has nothing to do with the boy . BBC also says "boy's shooting sparked riot". They just riot because they want to riot and start burning. It's just that a reason was found to "justify" this. Protesting is not rioting in any way. And how could anyone say that those rioting have, say, even centrist ideas? We also have leftist parties starting to blame one another. Anyway, if that is what you mean, why should any politician be blamed for an action of a police officer, especially a murder? If they have not directly ordered it, then they're not responsible for it. The only thing the political world could be accused of is being too late and too "loose". Some politicians should be blamed (and are blamed) for provoking the clashes, for which they are largely responsible. The only thing the riots are trying to do is make the government collapse and it should be made clearer (although it is becoming) who is behind all this...

Myself, I hope that no other innocent's car or shop or building is damaged... If they want to damage so much they should start with their own houses, the ones of their parents and their shops, as well as their own cars and those of their parents.--Michael X the White (talk) 15:45, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Just heard that the Athens Law School's Library of European Law burned down yesterday... Along with the students' essays, the computers where the students had access to international law reviews etc.etc. This cannot possibly be in line with showing compassion to the dead boy!... Just giving some info because people reading this article abroad may not realize the riots' impact, nor the severity of the situation. Pel thal (talk) 17:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

What happens in my country the last few days is sick, just sick! There is no government. No law and order. No common sense (we want a police which prevents destruction of innocent people's properties, but which cannot touch the hairs of these transgressors). The situation is just pathetic ... --Yannismarou (talk) 17:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I heard in the news that police officers used their guns again against youths... If that's the way they are trying to solve things, they are just making it worst. Yanni, I am very sorry to see that only now people began to understand that this country has no government... There were "rumours" about that during last year's fires... (for which "Lieutenant Wind" was blamed - I am simply quoting a then minister...). It would be better not to isolate events. In the same way that Michael says no polician shall be blamed for what a state employee did, no other rioter shall be blamed for what 1-2 did by burning the Law Library. And just cause I have heard some nazi-like comments about book-burning, I would like to remind that some of the worst dictators were elected (any comparison is not intentional). This goes in Michael's reference to Article 48; this would be unacceptable for Greece, taking into account the country's recent past. And this could spark even more violent riots and bring the state decades back. Justice for Alexis's murder was what united parts of Greek society. People sick of the scandals, unemployed and poor cause of the governments' measures, found a common reason to act together. It is about Alexis, but it is not only about Alexis... And since the government is incapable to offer solutions and protect the citizens, other groups (anarchists, communists, but also nationalists, hooligans) grabbed the opportunity of public disorder. So, who's to be blamed, if not the politicians? Hectorian (talk) 18:43, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh come on! This is what I mean by saying that this country is sick! They did not use "their guns against youths"! They shot in the air, after being attacked with stones and after being in danger! Shooting in the air is the minimum use of legal force allowed to any police force in the world. If we do not want them to fire in the air when they are in danger, then let's give them toy guns! The worse thing I heard is that they should leave! Why? They are there to enforce law and order, not to flee! We accuse them of allowing transgressors to destroy Athens and then we are also accusing them of shooting in the air when some aggressors with stones attacked them without any obvious reason. In any other organized European country all these young people throwing stones and burning would have been immediately arrested and put in prison. See how the German police treated the b... who occupied the Greek Embassy in Berlin and burnt the Greek flag. They were arrested despite the opposition of the Greek ambassador, who said that no occupation took place (?!), in order to "save" them (why?!). After that, the German police sent the "bill" for their mobilzation to the Greek Ambassador, saying: "Ok! Since you say that no occupation took place, the costs for our mobilization are yours!"--Yannismarou (talk) 18:50, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I just watched the video in the news. The policemen (ζητάδες) were not threatened. They fired 15 (!) times in the air. The police leadership admitted it only when a TV station showed them a chalice! What you say is true: in every other European country these people would be arrested. But also, in every other European country the minister of the interior would have resigned (in real, not in parody...). In every other European country, when a policeman murders a civilian goes to jail. This is not the case of Greece, and you know it... Apropos, if the policemen had not gone to the cemetery during the boy's funeral, at least Neo Faliro would had remained intact. This was a clear provocation. And of course, none takes the blame... Nor have I got faith that anyone will. As for the Greek ambassador in Berlin, I suppose he just protected Greek citizens (that's his job, you know); no need to transfer our problems to the Germans authorities, and we should pay for their mobilization, cause simply it's cause of us and our problems. Hectorian (talk) 19:31, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, Yannis covers me entirely. Myself all these days I've been thinking why our state can't just work as well as the German state that works perfectly. And this (my thought) has nothing to do with what happened in Berlin, in the embassy.

I just want to say a very little thing here, a tiny thing, about the country's recent past: Because of its recent past, some in our country have come to fear the law in general, and now they're passing that psychology to the next generation. Because of this fear that is imposed on the Greek society, there is a state of anarchy in the country every time a reason is found, a spark. The government really has no choice. If they start massive arrests, as they should and should have done, they'd be called "fascists", while when tolerating as much as possible they're called absent.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you in the fear the law by the people, caused by the state's recent past. But allow me to get it a bit further... People in our country have thousands of reasons to believe that the enforcement of the law (in general) is selective. What a government should and oughts to do is to make sure that noone is above the law, not even its member's, who are called btw "servants" (not masters) of the people. Once a government does not do that, things like the Greek riots occur. Our constitution clearly states that all Greeks are equal, not that some are more equal than others... Hectorian (talk) 20:12, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

(Starting answering to my friend's Hectorian previous comment after the edit conflict) Mmmm ... They were (at least some of them) German citizens as well I think. The job of the Greek Ambassador is to protect Greek citizens who preserve the law, not criminals according to both the Greek and German law. And if it is our problem, then let's treat it as such. Did the Greek justice prosecute these persons for their wrong-doings in London and Berlin? No! For the burning of the Greek flag? No! For the damages they caused? No! For the humiliation of our country? No! Are they going to send the bills to their parents? No! Nobody gets punished in Greece for what he/she does, and the bill is always paid by the state, namely by you and me, because no Ambassador, no Minister and no Prime Minister is going to pay the damages from his pocket. As far as the policemen's shooting is concerned, if they shot 15 times, then, yes, it is an exaggeration. If the policemen weren't in N. Faliro, and riots erupted, we would ask ourselves, why are they absent? Now that they were there, we say that they shouldn't be there in order to avoid clashes! If they were outside the cemetery just watching and in distance there is no provocation. They did they job. But I do not know further details concerning their presence. I've stopped watching the news. A few moments ago Evangelatos had an "eye-witness" of the "police brutality" in Faliro who was just walking there (what a coincidence?), admitting that there were not only kids but grown-ups as well, and that they were throwing stones, but ok the cops could flee in order to avoid them! And this poor guy who had no connection with the events and was praised by Evangelatos, closed his intervention telling that the policemen have placed a gun against him more than once! And Evangelatos was, of course, convinced that this guy repeatedly targeted by the police (why has no policeman ever placed a gun against me?!) had nothing to do with the persons throwing stones, and was just passing by. Bad police! Poor kids! See what these kids are doing with knives in London, and then let's think about how we should treat our kids who are always innocent for everything they do, in order not to face similar situations.--Yannismarou (talk) 20:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

We have heard many eye-witnesses (in brackets or not) these days, Yanni. None can say for sure if they are telling the truth or not. But there are also videos... pretty bad for the police... The murderer policeman said he fired warning shots and that the boy was killed accidentally. The video exposes his lie. Lets see what the police (!) will say (I suppose we already know, judging from our experience...). What our kids do, is cause of us, ourselves. In short, I do not believe it was fate or God's will what caused all these events. They were man-made. Those responsible must be punished. If not, the issue will never be over... Hectorian (talk) 20:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Need I remind my Greek friends that the media are not politically neutral? That the comments and pictures of "eye-witnesses" being "brutally attacked" by the police may just be an effort of getting people to hate the police or to make them forget the recent political scandals? I totally agree with Yannis that there is no government in this country. I'm not referring to the leading party but to the total lack of co-operation in matters as serious as these. The only thing Greek people see on TV are five politicians from the political parties represented in the Parliament, accusing each other of deficiency in dealing with riots!... In other countries, they would have had discussions in order to solve the problem and protect civilians who have seen their cars and houses burn down. And as for Hectorian's comment: if not the rioters, then who is to blame for the library's destruction? When participating in such actions, one must be prepared to take the consequences, i.e. to be accused of destroying public property. If he or she will be punished is up to justice to decide. How come we blame the police as a whole and not the single policeman who shot the kid? That's just the way it goes.

Oh, and if the riots are a result of the political scandals, have they been solved now that the shops in central Athens are burned down? How many people working in these stores will become unemployed? I myself proposed that this might be an explanation to the violence but it doesn' t justify it under any circumstances. What would a resignation of the Minister of Interior do? Of course I agree that it is a parody. But the resignation would not be a viable solution. The solution is to be found in the dialogue among the political parties. After all, the Greek people have had the chance to elect their representatives. If time is ripe for them to leave, then that should take place with debates in the Parliament, not by burning the libraries (and don't tell me that those who did it did not know that it was a library!... Yes, it reminds me of totalitarian measures even though we don't like to hear it...). Demonstrate, close the roads... but in peace. PS. Great job by the German police!... Pel thal (talk) 21:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, Hectorian, these days the headlines have been talking about 2 Alexis (the boy and the Patriarch. Well, do not really worry about what the police will say, or the policemen themselves. The third Alexis is here to defend them!

Let me remind everyone about the new law that says video cannot be used as evidence...--Michael X the White (talk) 21:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Petty laws won't make the public shut up. Hectorian (talk) 21:19, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The true public will never be really informed of their fate, nor will it follow it. This will just fade until their trial, that I expect a little more rioting.--Michael X the White (talk) 21:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

...Until another murder of a teenager by a policeman will fill Greek downtowns with debris again. If you won't heal the wounds of the past, you have no healthy future. But do not hurry up... rioting isn't over yet... Hectorian (talk) 21:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

But this is not about the kid. There's no need to kill another one to get them smashing and breaking and burning again. They do so every time they get their chance. Rioting will be over soon (one or two days more), be any means necessary. And well, if it gets larger, there's more than the police out there...--Michael X the White (talk) 21:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively: There's no need to smash and break and burn to see them kill another one again. They do so every time they get their chance (and media aren't present, of course). You mean the tanks?! I wonder what it will be like to wake up in 1967... If this ever happens, those responsible will have removed the masks from their faces... Hectorian (talk) 21:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

For a moment there I thought you were talking about our 1967. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 09:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC) (of the USA)

I'm sorry for not being clear enough. In Brussels (and in other major European cities), when there is a riot the fire brigade (η πυροσβεστική) takes over and just makes them break using water with enormous pressure. But still, you don't need tanks. Infantry would be used!! But there's no reason to do that, there's not enough danger, nor will anyone give so much importance to the rioters to call the Armed Forces in.It would be like saying there's no other way. Well, media obviously are present here, giving their own view of facts, as always, non? (Yannis still covered me totally in this). --Michael X the White (talk) 21:57, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

And who is responsible? If the police reacts, they are called fascists. If they don't hit back, we complain about lack of governance. If we were to agree upon the fact that the politicians are to blame, then we should blame all politicians since 1974, who didn't educate their police staff adequately, who taught the children in school that it is OK to destroy other people's property and who cover up every political scandal. I think that the single policeman should be blamed for murder if found guilty in court and that the rioters arrested while destroying Athens should be convicted. And that the politicians covering up scandals should be brought to justice. Pel thal (talk) 22:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

...and that's exactly what all Greeks want. However, I doubt the last will happen. It never happened since 1974... Imagine, I am in my twenties, and no politician was ever convicted during my lifetime! Despite the dozens of scandals that occured... Can't help it been pessimistic, though hope dies last. Hectorian (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• About the shootings in P. Faliro: I saw the video myself, and it is obvious than more than 20 hooligans (this is the term which international media correctly use to describe the transgressors, but which is incomprehensibly a "taboo" for the monolithic and discriminatory Greek media) attack a small group of policemen from a small distance (not more than 15-20 meters) throwing stones. There is a clear danger for their life (taking into account that they are almost surrounded), and it was their right to shot in the air. Now, 15 shots is an exaggeration; 1 or 2 would have been enough. Have in mind that the hooligans fled only when the policemen tool the upper hand and chased them) I do not agree with those saying that the police should flee or should not be in Faliro. But in Greece we have learned to accuse police of everything. If I were a policeman, I would have delivered my gun to my superiors, refusing to do anything until Greek society decides what exactly wants me to do.
• About Grigoropoulos' death and the relevant videos: Yes, the video and the evidence reveal that the guard lied when he said the kids attacked him with molotov cocktails (his argument is indeed refuted by the related videos and testimonies), and he also lied about the place where the shooting actually occurred. But we have yet no evidence supporting the arguments of those eye-witnesses asserting that it was a murder, and that the guard shot directly the kid. As a matter of fact, autopsy findings were closer to the guard's arguments (if the shooting was direct, then shouldn't the bullet go through and pass the body and, in any case, follow a different direction [not down-up as it happened]?), although the forensic doctor did not want to draw any conclusions until the ballistics is available. But, of course, we have already a priori decided that whatever ballistics say, it is going to be "twisted". Because we have already judged the guard before the justice itself (before ever the physical evidence is available!) and we have declared him a "murderer" (a term with a concrete legal meaning: "an intentional killer").

Well, as far as I am concerned, I accuse the guard of stupidity, criminal irresponsibility and incompetence, but I refuse to accuse him of murder until I have the slightest evidence (and until now I have some eye-witnesses only whose "direct shooting argument" is until now verified by no physical evidence) that this is indeed a murder.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

As I hear in radio, ballistics is now taking place probably with the presence of technical experts from the side of both the defendants and the victim. At this moment also, the defendants are before the prosecuting attorney with their lawyer.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

As I heard in the news, more shootings by policemen took place in other areas as well. In all cases, self-defence is sited as the reason. Police brutality against kids has been captured in videos. Amnesty International has already underlined that. Incidents of ordinary Greeks (not taking part in the riots, but just having their coffee in cafeterias) verbaly attacking the police while witnessing their brutality have also been reported. The murderer policeman in his statement just a few minutes ago, accused the dead boy for "misbehavour"! The defendants' lawyer indirectly accused on Greek TV the President of Greece, because Karolos Papoulias used the word "murderer". Hectorian (talk) 13:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I still don't believe (and I'm not that romantic) that the police just attack without being provoked. I'm still speaking about the neutrality of the media. One moment, they claim that the GSEE and ADEDY demonstrations take place in peace and the other minute they show policemen doing their work. Their job is to protect civilians, even by using force (you cannot have a dialogue with a hooligan) and not just sit in apathy, watching Molotov bombs being thrown at Syntagma Square! In my eyes, this is an undeclared civil war and that includes police in cafeterias too... Pel thal (talk) 13:58, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

If the President indeed used the word "murderer", then I agree with Mr. Kougias.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:12, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Not if; he did use that word. Simply, cause this is what it was, although it seems that the government moves towards a by all means possible cover-up... The President is the only politician in this country in no need to please the public. Also he is one of the few who dares to speak out. As for Kougias, he just does his "job" (that's why he is a favourite subject for all Greek comedy shows, and you know that pretty well...). Hectorian (talk) 14:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Well the president is not the Pope, is he? Even if he said (and I do not doubt he did) it does not mean that it is true. "Public justice" is not justice. Otherwise get the two men and throw them in the arena with lions. I cannot judge them as you cannot judge them as anyone cannot judge them. It is not the first time the police shoots in the air, but this time someone's dead and that caused outrage and that caused everyone to say "murderers"!! But, as we all know, in Greece live 10.000.000+ Prime Ministers, 10M Ministers, 10M judges, 10M MPs, 10M coaches, 10M Presidents of the Republic, 10M Professors and so on... The only thing that will really be achieved, is university take overs becoming illegal (as if they're legal) and beiing recognised as acts of terrorism! Well,in that, the hooligans succeeded in what the rest of us cannnot do...--Michael X the White (talk) 14:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a Catholic, so, in any case I do not care about Pope-like comparisons. Everyone sees what is going on. But worst, everyone knew in advance what the police and the government would claim. The President knew as well, I'm sure about that. That's why the international media are talking about lack of democrasy, nepotism and stubborn attempt to hold on power. And that is why my beloved motherland has been humiliated worldwide. But what some have not realised yet is that there has been a precedent in Greece. And for the first time the largely accused as ignorant iPod generation spoke... And has spoken loudly and clearly enough. Hectorian (talk) 14:54, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Can we concentrate on working out the sourcing and NPOV'ing and reader-friendly text structure, rather than exchanging political views here? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

(FP you're actually right) You do not need to be a Catholic to see what I mean, which I am sure you do. The government has been democratically elected for four years. The people of Greece have decided and do not need the biased opinion of Anglo-American media. Our country is being humiliated for allowing a little minority group of hooligans to rule the streets.--Michael X the White (talk) 15:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Just some electoral results... When someone is incapable to rule and a liar, needs to be ousted. Hectorian (talk) 16:17, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

It's the people's duty to decide that every four years. We cannot decide for them--Michael X the White (talk) 16:26, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Okay, enough. Can we all please keep our opinions about Mr Karamanlis' government to ourselves? (I have my own, but I'm not telling you.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Why, Fut?! Seriously now, I do not see any major problems with the article. Minor edit wars, and in general a comprehensive presentation of events. You see, this is why we decided to speak about politics. No heat in the article itself!--Yannismarou (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

http://www.skai.gr/master_avod.php?id=103494&lsc=2 = The policeman's attorney just said "The Greek Justice will decide if the young Alex had to be shot or not". No comments.. I feel ashamed of our country --KaragouniS :  Chat  15:24, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

GMT?

Why are times given in GMT? Surely, it would be more relevant to know what time of day locally these events took place than being able to determine the time in various time zones around the world? __meco (talk) 08:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

"brought forward"

7 rioters were arrested and another 15 were brought forward[16] and by Tuesday morning, 12 police officers were injured, another 87 rioters were arrested and 176 were brought forward.[17]

Anyone know what is meant by "brought forward" in the above passage? Does not seem to make sense. The references are in greek so I'm unable to help. --62.173.76.218 (talk) 12:22, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

It means that they were brought to justice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.156.44.51 (talk) 12:45, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

What does "brought to justice" mean? Arrested? If so, please use the word "arrested"... --85.222.45.210 (talk) 13:07, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

"Brought forward" is a literal translation of the Greek word "προσήχθησαν". They were arrested and then they were sent on order of the prosecutor to the examining magistrate, so that the prosecutor can decide whether to bring a prosecution against them or not/whether to have a trial or not/whether to bring them to justice. Pel thal (talk) 18:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Update

The article needs serious update. Athens and Thessaloniki were burning all night long Monday to Tuesday, and right now, Tuesday afternoon, there is violence in Syntagma Square. - 79.131.5.135 (talk) 13:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Riots start again, in Nea Smirni and Paleo Faliro.. --KaragouniS :  Chat  15:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)sd

Sorry to present some more: Riots outside National Technical University of Athens and Athens University of Economics and Business, shootings in Palaio Faliro and serious problems in Patras right now (Tuesday evening). In the morning clashes between police and high school students. - 79.131.5.135 (talk) 18:12, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Image:Alexandros Grigoriadis'2008.jpg

The image was given to the world media by some friends of the victim, and later was shown on the TV. None of them ever had copyright claims on the picture. --KaragouniS :  Chat  16:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• Copyright claims can not be released by inference. They must be specifically released, under a specific license. Barring any information regarding such a release, we must presume fair use of the image. The image is tagged properly, but missing a fair use rationale, and has been marked as such. Please do NOT remove the tagging noting it's missing a rationale until the rationale has been provided. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

"The special guard shot the 15-year-old directly on the left side of his chest"

"Directly"?! Nobody is sure about that. The report of the forensic surgeon was inconclusive, and everybody now expects the results of the ballistics. Yes, some eye-witnesses said so, but forensic examination has not yet verified these claims. Even BBC presents both sides. Therefore this part of the lead should be reworded as follows:

"According to eye-witnesses, the special guard the 15-year-old was shot directly on the left side of his chest by the special guard. The latter asserts however that the the boy was killed by a ricochet. The forensic autopsy was inconclusive, and the results of the ballistics are still expected."

Are there any objections?--Yannismarou (talk) 16:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Grammatical objection: "the latter" shouldn't be used to refer to the guard. Just say "the guard". Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 17:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:32, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The ballistics analysis was postponed from Tuesday the 9th to Wednesday the 10th at the request of the guard's legal counsel. They want to have an expert of their own present. Therefore there is no definitive information about whether the bullet was directly shot or if it ricocheted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.74.251.98 (talk) 19:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

That is what the article also says now.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:03, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

International reaction

I think this section will be good if it is formatted so that the name of each country comes in a list format with their flags. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

In the same format as International response to the 2005 Kashmir earthquake or International response to the Beslan hostage crisis. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why User:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise keeps erasing the edits adding Olympia's march to the international response. "washington demo is still not notable" why is this? It took place in the state capitol and had an equal number of people to the march in Sweden. Do I need to talk up the physical damage brought on by protesters? There is no embassy here, however it is the state capitol. What's the deal? Please stop erasing it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.239.160 (talk) 22:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to have had any notable echo in the media, has it? A demonstration of 50 people is hardly something that will be remembered in a few months from now. If other marches elsewhere in the world were equally small, then the solution is to remove those too. The article has far far too much non-notable cruft already. All of this article needs cutting back and pruning down at this stage, it's been growing uncontrollably. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

B/W picture

Just curious, your "Canon EOS 400D DIGITAL" doesn't have colour? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.208.60 (talk) 19:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes this is something I am also curious about. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 20:21, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Article lacks analysis

My friend lives in Athens, and I love the country. I come here to understand not only what happened (this I may get in news), but also why it happened. The article does not give the. I propose starting a new section, "Causes of riots", or maybe "Tensions origins" to get the full story here. I beleive there are many sources available with analysis, but I just can not understand Greek.FeelSunny (talk) 20:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

This could require a new article, you know. But your idea is exceptionally correct. Hectorian (talk) 20:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at this page's section "Begginings". Maybe that will give you some idea of what happened. Pel thal (talk) 20:51, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

That started sort of OK but then it turned into a regular style internet debate. This article needs analysis, not opinions and speculation. 145.99.155.53 (talk) 14:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This article needs analysis. Obviously this shooting is not the sole reason for these enormous riots; that would just be ridiculous to suppose. In a country where all is well, a police shooting of a young man would not provoke such immediate anarchy. This is a major blind spot of this article. Esn (talk) 22:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Question

In the amateur video of the shooting you hear two pops (presumbably gunshots) If one bullet hit the kid where did the second go and info on that it might shed some light on the shooting itself--Matterfoot (talk) 22:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• The shots allegedly were 3. Two in the air and the fatal one --Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 12:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

EuroNews reported five minutes ago that the ballistic examination shows that the shot was not direct...But I can't find anything. Is this true? Has the ballistic examination been completed?--Michael X the White (talk) 12:40, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• No, it is expected to be presented on Friday. Source (in Greek) - 79.131.0.100 (talk) 16:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Still going on?

The way this article is written suggests the riots are over, the latest day of rioting mentioned is saturday and there is an aftermath section. However, the frontpage of google news clearly suggests that the riots are continuing. time's headline as of today: Greek Riots Show No Signs of Abating

Totally correct. Look at this blog which is keeping track of ongoing events: http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.159.233 (talk) 07:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

96.237.101.65 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 23:41, 9 December 2008 (UTC).

• • Thursday, December 11: many police departments have been targeted, as students' protests continue. At noon many students gathered outside Korydallos Prison were the accused police officers will remain. More than a hundred schools and universities across the country remain occupied. Source —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.0.100 (talk) 15:16, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Fondling ears

Could a footnote be given for the expression(s) "fondling ears". Presumably this means something in Greek, but I'm at a loss as to say what the English translation might signify. - Francis Tyers · 08:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• It means sth like pamper in English. --Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 12:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• It's a greek expression: "Χαιδεύω αυτιά". It means: "to tell somebody what they actually desire to hear (and probably not the truth)". - 79.131.0.100 (talk) 15:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

In this context it also means to "pat on the back". See section titled #Georgios Karatzaferis below. NikoSilver 17:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Do Greek universities have fraternities and sororities?

And if so, were they involved in the riots? 204.52.215.107 (talk) 09:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• No & No --Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 12:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
  • There are only youth parties which represent the Greek political parties (PASP for PASOK, DAP for Nea Dimokratia, EAAK for the Greek Communist Party etc). And they didn't have any known involve with the riots. --KaragouniS :  Chat  12:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

EAAK isn't the university students' political party of Greek Communist Party; PKS is. --Assassingr (talk) 23:11, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

• • • Although the content of EAAK's leaflets I read yesterday was not helpful taking into consideration the current situation.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Wow, so the Greek system doesn't exist in Greece? Learn something new every day. Dragons flight (talk) 14:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Perhaps because it isn't really a Greek system at all. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 16:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
    • "Greek" is really a word abuse in that phrase, based on the alphabet used.--Michael X the White (talk) 16:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
• In the past three years many greek universities have been occupied by students for months, so as to protest for the latest government reforms and, in addition, for the fact that the recent goverments have provided very little money for the education sector. Those were organised by the student bodies and the youth parties mentioned above. This time the universities have been occupied also by anarchists as a form of protest. I should mention that the greek law forbids police forces to enter universities, so as to protect freedom of ideas. However, this law is often used by protesters - who may not be students - to evade arrest by the police. - 79.131.0.100 (talk) 14:54, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. We Greeks gave the world anarcho-democracy, cold coffee, ear fondling, and a whole new meaning to the Greek system! (All of which in themselves are oxymorons since there's nothing systematic about us, but "oxymoron" is another Greek word so you all know where we're coming from) NikoSilver 20:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

You know, I had no idea about ear fondling. Most interesting.--Xenovatis (talk) 22:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

small altercation?

The lead says the boy was shot after a small altercation and cites a USA today article. The article says he was shot because the police were under attack by "anarchists" in a neighborhood which is considered "the anarchists home base". Someone please fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.127.188.10 (talk) 12:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the lead is accurate. When the shooting took place, the policemen were not under attack by "anarchists" (hooligans in my vocabulary), but they had a useless and needless altercation with a group of young people, which were not for sure "anarchists". The kid was definitely not an "anarchist".--Yannismarou (talk) 13:27, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Lead is much better now thank you.

name of the murderer

The name of the policeman who murdered the kid is Epaminondas Korkoneas and not Panos Avramidis as stated in the beginning of the article. 85.74.15.55 (talk) 13:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Correct, and maybe we should also add the name of the second defendant.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Murderer? Murdered? That's jumping to some wild conclusions, don't you think? Wait until the evidence is conclusive and he is actually tried and charged with the crime, first, okay? Also, rioting against every policman does not solve this problem. Everyone partaking in the violence is nothing more than a thug--actually, a terrorist. Splashallison

"Amateur video"?

Excuse me but where in the Eleftherotipia article cited does it mention an amateur video? I'm not finding it. [1]. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:46, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes...nor can I find it.Could the one who added the info please locate it?--Michael X the White (talk) 16:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Somebody linked to a Youtube video somewhere above here, but that wasn't mentioned in the press. And as far as I could see anything, it didn't not show violent attacks from the youths, it didn't show the scene at all. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

However, can we use Youtube videos here??--Michael X the White (talk) 16:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Only if the video's significance has already been discussed by independent reliable sources, and it is hosted on youtube legally (not e.g. a copyvio from a commercial TV station or something like that.) If that amateur video were to take on some importance as a publicly discussed piece of evidence, then yes, we'd link to it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The video was located in MEGA Channel's website. Perhaps someone placed the link of a newspaper in its place. I found the video, extract from the news, in youtube[2]. There are allegations that the video was modified, concerning its audio. As far as I know, there are no allegations about what it shows. Hectorian (talk) 16:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Well that does not show anything at all. It could be entirely constructed and the audio could have been entirely added later on. Is that the evidence everyone's been talking about??Oh...--Michael X the White (talk) 16:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

...and nothing could had happened... and none could have been killed... and none could have rioted... It was shown Greek TV by a welknown TV station. Are you disputing its notability? Hectorian (talk) 16:54, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

We shouldn't say our personal opinion here, but I'll do it this once. I doubt MEGA said anything true the last 4,5 years. I also doubt anything MEGA said was not controlled and moved by certain people...But that is just my personal opinion and that's certainly not what Wikipedia is about.(Btw, I do not say the video is fake; I say it might not even be at Exarcheia)--Michael X the White (talk) 17:00, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

There are no independent media. But in any case, MEGA is not state run ERT... The video was shown. MEGA is perhaps the largest Greek TV station. The video has not been so far disputed about what it shows. It is important for the article. I see no reason for it not to be here, other than obvious pro-governmental ones. Hectorian (talk) 17:07, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

What are you guys on about again? Please, please, please, set your political differences aside and work on the article, or get the hell out of here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, Eleftherotypia article says nothing about the video. If our source is Ytube itself then it should be accordingly replaced.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:46, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Fut! Take this back or they'll go out on the street again! NikoSilver 18:01, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

"Murder"?

Question to the law people here (Yannis?): According to the E article, the police officer is officially being charged with "ανθρωποκτονία από πρόθεση" (literally 'intentional homicide'). Does that properly translate as "murder" (which I'd have expected to be δολοφονία)? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a law man but I think the official term for murder ("δολοφονία") is legally ανθρωποκτονία .--Michael X the White (talk) 16:29, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that common law and civil law systems do not follow the same rules. So, in England we have "murder" and "manslaughter". In Greek we have "killing by intention ("ανθρωποκτονία εκ προθέσεως")" (with dolus directus and dolus eventualis) and "killing by negligence ("ανθρωποκτονία εξ αμελείας"). Therefore, I would say that yes the best term to describe the charge is "murder" or, maybe more accurately, "willful murder" (of course not "premeditated"). Pel Thal could also help with terminology.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Regardless, we should be careful to clarify that he is charged with murder. It's not (supposed to be) a murder (simply) until its trial in the court. (IMO it is, but I'm not a judge -yet.) NikoSilver 17:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

That is why I have repeatedly said, and have in mind that, pending the ballistics, the charges may change even before we go to the court room.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

So, do I take it that anthropoktonia ek protheseos is a somewhat wider term than murder, but covers murder too? Apparently, in the Anglosaxon definitions, "premeditated" would be a necessary condition of their definition of murder, right? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly. We do not have an absolute correspondence between "anthropoktonia ek prothesews" and "murder". "Murder" is somehow wider (it includes not only "intent" but also "Malice aforethought") but also norrower ("voluntary manslaughter" would also be regarded in Greece as a sub-category of "anthropoktonia ek prothesews"). I think that Greek terminology is mainly based on the German Penal Law, so let me have a look at it.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

According to my dictionary of legal terms, "ανθρωποκτονία εκ προθέσεως" is translated as murder. Homicide or manslaughter is the translation of non-intentional (εξ αμελείας) murder. And in Greece there is no such crime/you cannot be charged of "δολοφονία". Pel thal (talk) 18:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

"Murder" is indeed the closest term to "anthropoktonia ek prothesews" but they are still not the same thing. In England, US (and Germany as I also saw) they focus on the gravity of the offence. In Greece we focus on the "intent" or the "negligence". We cannot thus accurately translate "anthropoktonia ek prothesews". Neither the German law helps us a lot: ""anthropoktonia ek prothesews" could be both "Mord" or "Totschlag" (but not the "lightest" case of Totschlag, which demands "negligence").

I'm afraid I confused you instead of helping you clarifying the whole issue! Bottom line, I would say "charged with murder", because I cannot find anything better.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

It anyway needs to be clear enough for the reader.When we get the exact charges we could examine this again.--Michael X the White (talk) 18:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Bottom line: ανθρωποκτονία εκ προθέσεως (article 299, par.1 of the Greek Penal Code) comprises 3 types of "murder". When one deliberately wants to kill somebody (επιδιώκει το αποτέλεσμα της πράξης του), when one accepts the result of another person's death when committing an act that could kill somebody (αποδέχεται το θάνατο και γνωρίζει τη σχέση αιτιότητας μεταξύ της ενέργειάς του και του θανάτου του άλλου) and when one accepts the possibility of the other person's death (αποδέχεται το αποτέλεσμα, γνωρίζοντας την ενδεχόμενη σχέση αιτιότητας μεταξύ της ενέργειάς του και του θανάτου του άλλου). In English, the closest translation would be "murder" (see Yannis' analysis above about the narrow and wider sense of the crime "murder"). Pel thal (talk) 19:01, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Agence France-Presse and The Times speak of "voluntary homicide". Isn't a literal translation better than an approximate one when it comes to legal technicalities? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 04:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Let's go with the literal translation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

This "literal translation" makes no sense to me. What does "voluntary homicide" mean in international legal terminology? As a jurist I'd have never translated "an8rwpoktonia ek pro8esews" as "voluntary homicide". Check all these news sites preferring "murder" (contrary to "the Times"). EURODICATOM also always translates "an8rwpoktonia ek pro8esews" as murder. IMO what you chose to put in the article is legally the worst possible solution. This term does not exist!--Yannismarou (talk) 13:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

How about intentional homicide then? That seems better English to me, and it does exist as a technical term in English. In fact, the US Department of State uses it here [3] to refer to a similar case in Greece, as does Athens News Agency quite regularly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) After all, "voluntary homicide" is a literally wrong translation. A "voluntary homicide" is "a homicide I wanted", while "an8rwpoktonia ek pro8esews" means "homicide with intent", which is an accurate translation but non-existing, as far as I know, translation in the real law world. Obviously, your "intentional homicide" is close or the same with my "homicide with intent". But I am not still sure: Yes, the State Department uses it, but this does not mean that they are correct in terms of legal terminology; I still believe EURODICATOM translating "murder" is more accurate. But I'll also ask Wikidea to tell us what he believes on the whole issue.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:23, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I should point out there appears to be a misapprehension that manslaughter is never intentional. Actually if you check out Manslaughter & Voluntary manslaughter & Manslaughter in English law you'd find it can be, depending on jurisdiction. In English law, it's apparently disappearing. In US law, it's still there. In NZ law I'm not sure (this [4] may be good if it weren't for the fact I don't have access to it) although I did come across discussing the partial self-defense aspect in various jurisdictions([5]. Anyway this is all a bit OT, suffice to say it's not true that an intentional killing is murder not manslaughter in jurisdictions which have a distinction between the two. (A premeditated one yes but as I understand it that is not part of the charge even if some sources have inaccurately translated the sentence). The problem as I understand it is that Greek law does not make the distinctions common in those based on English law therefore there is no precise translation. IMHO intentional homicide or homicide with intent is our best bet with a sourced discussion of the usage of the terms and translation Nil Einne (talk) 19:17, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

My proposal would be to phrase it as follows: A criminal prosecution against the two policemen involved in the shooting has initially charged Korkoneas with "homicide with intent" ("ανθρωποκτονία εκ προθέσεως") which in Greek Law corresponds to a murder charge with emphasis on the non-accidental nature of the offence.--Avg (talk) 21:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello there: homicide is just from Latin for killing a person, as I understand, and doesn't express culpability. If it's intentional (i.e. you mean to do the act which results in someone dying to that person) then it is murder. "Intentional homicide" is not a term we use in the UK (homicide is a term that Americans use a bit more) and so yes, the best phrase is simply murder.

(It's really sad, all of this). Best, Wikidea 21:56, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Ahem...

... everybody still busy discussing their political opinions? How about the concrete questions here? and by the way, may I remind you all that WP:BLP is valid here too. That includes talk page comments about the police officers and their lawyers, okay? So please pull yourselves together. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:51, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The events are quite more complex. Simply calling them rioting renders the description of events quite confusing.

Therefore i suggest a time oriented narration of events , probably one section,paragraph for each day. To my opinion such a structural change in the article would greatly improve the article —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fouriergr (talk • contribs) 17:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

• Actually, the violence in the streets is not the only thing that's going on. Many many students across the country have stopped going to school and gather every day to protest quite peacefully, accompanied by their parents and teachers. They send out messages protesting for the shooting and low quality of the educational system, which deteriorates every year. Actually, they do so for the past four years or so, but only this time their protest is combined with total chaos in the streets. -- 79.131.0.100 (talk) 15:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Georgios Karatzaferis

I didn't know Georgios Karatzaferis was into oo-mox. JIP | Talk 18:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

What?--Michael X the White (talk) 18:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The ear fondling thing is not translated to English literally. In Greek it means to tap on the back or something. How would you propose we translate it JIP? NikoSilver 18:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

BTW that was said first by Aleka Papariga. Karatzaferis even mentioned "someone else said" before he quoted her when he said it. Does it take one to know one? :-) NikoSilver 18:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

THe ear-fondling translation is hilarious. Use "pat on the back" instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.24.150 (talk) 21:26, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

JIP, that was the best joke I've heard all week! Seriously now, we could simply use the word "encourage" instead. PervyPirate (talk) 23:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The true meaning of the Greek ear fondling entails some kind of secrecy. Encouragement is generally open (unless specified like "secret encouragement", which would sound to hard). Any other thoughts? NikoSilver 23:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The original oo-mox politician who said it immediately added "not that they support them, but they fondle their ears". That means not outright support and encouragement, but some kind of a secret pat on the back. Is there a better expression in English? NikoSilver 23:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, try "surreptitious pat on the back"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.24.150 (talk) 23:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

She didn't say that they do not support them, she said that they are not identified with them--Michael X the White (talk) 10:38, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The pictures and the story

This may be solely my own opinion, but I feel that the pictures used in the article really don't do a satisfactory job in portraying the level of chaos pervading Greece all week long. Neither pictures of exploding Molotov Cocktails or other incendiary bombs nor cars lit ablaze or rampant vandalism and destruction. Not even anything of the larger scale clashes with riot police. Logically, pictures should help illustrate the text of the article and these pictures make the extent of the riots seem, well, tame. Is there any way this can be resolved or is there no use in me asking?

-Alan 24.184.184.130 (talk) 05:52, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

We need free pictures. We can only work with what we have. There's a bit more stuff out on flickr, I guess. If you want to go and stand next to a police battle line and take photos of the molotovs, you're of course very welcome to upload them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Some photos here[[6]].--Lapost (talk) 09:12, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I can give you some of my own pics of the aftermath -- like a warzone. How do I upload them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.24.150 (talk) 13:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for volunteering those. Best thing will be, you go to Commons (the shared image repository for all wikimedia projects), create an account at commons:Special:UserLogin (just takes half a minute), and then follow the steps at commons:Special:Upload. Make sure to provide a good descriptive file name and description for each photo. You can add the code [[Category:2008 Greek riots]] to the image description, to make it easier to find. There are already a number of photographs in that category, at commons:Category:2008 Greek riots. Let me know if you run into any problems, or just upload as far as you can and I'll help afterwards if anything needs fixing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Done! They are quite good quality images, which better convey some of the physical shock you get ( I think). The smells and burning eye sensations are absent, though :-) Xenos2008 (talk) 15:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, good job! Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:22, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Reduce "domestic response" section?

The section listing all the comments from Greek politicians is too long, I think. Please avoid recentism. Only such pieces of news that have some expectation of being of some significance beyond the day should be included. We don't need every minor party leader's comments here. Can we cut it back? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:54, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Ι agree. But I'm sure some will argue otherwise... Pel thal (talk) 10:18, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree as well.--Michael X the White (talk) 10:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Events in Patras

According to occupiedlondon.org, what media reports as "citizens protecting their belongings" was fascists assembled from around Greece and co-ordinating with police. I am going to update "The riots and political crisis" section with this information.--Angdraug (talk) 12:52, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

We don't use blogs like that as sources. Only reputable mainstream news media please. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Still, this report provides a reasonable explanation of the internal contradictions in the relevant part of the section ("some other citizens have started acting against the rioters" ... "members of far-right organisations took part in the violence"). Even if the source itself is not acceptable, these two sentences need to be rephrased in a way that makes it more obvious that both are speaking about the same thing: one source (in.gr) claims that it was ordinary citizens, while other (mayor of Patras) claims that far-right organizations were involved. Angdraug (talk) 13:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

"Eyewitnesses said..."

Re [7]: I don't see why this bit is being removed again and again. Yes, we shouldn't source it to a copyvio video on youtube, but the newspaper refs are quite okay. These witness reports were widely reported in the press. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:53, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmm... I removed it a bunch of times, but feel free to put it back in. I noticed that the IP's that keep adding it are also engaged in vandalism, and thought it must have been tendentious, but you raise a good point. I suppose the IP vandalism could be the same person just getting ticked off that we keep removing that section. Hiberniantears (talk) 16:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

European Law library's total destruction

I'm changing the phrase in the article because the destruction is total; I have pictures that prove it because I was there today. Pel thal (talk) 16:29, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately 'pictures that prove it' is not a good source Nil Einne (talk) 19:22, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I know there are numerous sources for that, but re the "pictures are no good source"... sorry? How is that? NikoSilver 19:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

If we have a picture of the burned library,it is a source of the library having been burned,non?--Michael X the White (talk) 19:59, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

As you saw from my edit, there is a source providing this information. I know that personal investigation is not considered as a source by WPpolicy but the pictures I took today prove the destruction. Here are the links to the pictures:[8], [9], [10]. Pel thal (talk) 21:00, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

No that would amount to OR. We need a source that says the library burnt down. If we have a source which says the library burnt down thats fine but using picture to prove it burnt down may be suitable for wikinews but not wikipedia. (If you don't understand why using pictures amounts to OR think about it carefully. How do you know the law library burnt down? Well firstly it requires you to interpret that these pictures really are of the law library and not some other building. Secondly it requires you to intepret that the building burnt down from the pictures and indeed in this case I'm not seing a burnt down building since the building still seems to be mostly standing. The inside may be gutted but it definitely doesn't look like it's burnt down to me. Perhaps I'm mistaken, that's why wee need a reliable source which does the intepretation for us. Finally and perhaps most importantly, were relying on our contributors to produce accurate unmodified pictures. While to some extent we're doing all this when we include an image in the article, including an image in the article and letting a reader interpreti t as they wish is quite different from us writing something in the article based on our intepretation of the pictures) Nil Einne (talk) 11:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Here's the best I found, from Kathimerini (reputable newspaper) of 10 December: [11]. "Το κτίριο έχει καταστραφεί εντελώς. Πόσα από τα βιβλία της Βιβλιοθήκης διασώθηκαν είναι ακόμα άγνωστο." My translation: "The building has been destroyed completely. How many of the library's books may have been saved is still unknown." (Personally, I'd comment that I find it quite unlikely that any books would have been saved in such circumstances, but anyway...) Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:24, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I see I remembered wrong, no one said it burnt down just that it was totally destroyed. Be that as it may we still need a source, Greek or otherwise. The one you have seems good enougn. And I don't think we need to mention the books bit it's somewhat unnecessary (provided we don't say that all books were destroyed) Nil Einne (talk) 11:27, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Correct. Saying "the library was destroyed" is amply justified at this point. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Just to make things clear: my intention was never to use the pictures in the article; their quality is far too poor to be considered as an image that could be used in an article of any kind. They were taken only to prove the destruction on the present talk page and on the Greek Wikipedia talkpage about the riots. Unfortunately I could not go into the destroyed library because of the danger of having sth fall on my head. The area was later suspended in order to repare the damage on the outside. However, the newspaper Fut refers to is a reliable source so I can't see why we are arguing. And yes,all the computers and the books are unfortunately destroyed (just for the record)... Pel thal (talk) 11:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. BTW, could you confirm if the building you took photos of is the same building as this? I inferred from this report that this is the building we're talking about, but I couldn't recognise it in your photos. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

It's the same building. The picture in your comment is taken from the crossroad Sina and Akadimias 47. Mine are taken from the front side of the library. I'm sure other users can verify this info too. Pel thal (talk) 18:14, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Editors attempting to smear Left Coalition

Not only is "Criticism on the Coalition of Radical Left" bad grammar, it is also misleading as a paragraph in the section quotes Karatzaferis saying "there are some political powers that are serious, and some that pat them on the back...". When asked to identify the rioters, he said, pointing out left-wing extremists, "We all know them, but it is not the time to name them for we will only spill oil on the fire". Where does he mention the Coalition in the statement?

Also, a passage reads: "Georgios Karatzaferis reffered to a press release that, he claimed, had an MP of the Coalition supporting this terrorism." Is "terrorism" Wikipedia's description of the riots or Karatzaferis'? --84.70.143.95 (talk) 17:52, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on sources, you know. Check them out ;) --Michael X the White (talk) 18:00, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

About back-tapping, check above ;)

Haha that's funny. "Terrorism" is a blatantly POV statement, and this is WP:UNDUE given to a petty conflict between the small opposition parties. --84.70.143.95 (talk) 18:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh well blame Karatzaferis for that.You still haven't read what he said.--Michael X the White (talk) 18:19, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Karatzaferis is regarded as an extremist of the right-wing variety and leads the smallest party in parliament. His outbursts should not occupy half a section here. "This terrorism" is not quoted. --84.70.143.95 (talk) 18:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I presume Karatzaferis spoke in Greek so it's unlikely to be a direct quotation and therefore shouldn't be in quotes. Presuming there's no dispute over the accuracy of the translation this isn't in itself a problem Nil Einne (talk) 19:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Good point. How are we supposed to know he said that anyway? He is a minor right-wing extremist who does not deserve so much attention here. He is bound to make such allegations against the Left. --84.70.143.95 (talk) 19:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

None qualified you to judge what should and should not be here according to who said it, nor what he may be bound to do, you know. We follow our sources here.--Michael X the White (talk) 19:55, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

This section gives WP:UNDUE to petty mudslinging on the fringes of parliament. It contributes nothing to the wider issues here. --84.70.143.95 (talk) 20:01, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Economic or political background ?

Hello, how can just a death lead to a such long and huge riots, it should be some background, such economic exclusion (like French riots) or large political miscontent, no ? Yug 19:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The "official reason" of everything except the general strike that had been programmed before the weekend is Alexis' death.--Michael X the White (talk) 19:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

So, let us leave these 'officials reasons' and go further by expanding about the deeper reasons of all this. Ancient historians said that for each war were recent and visible reasons, and deep and real reasons. We may create 2 sections to encourages readers to think more about the true-deep reasons of a so huge riots. Yug 20:47, 11 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.249.95.8 (talk)

However, this is not history yet to be treated in the same way ancient historians treated history. If you find reliable sources supporting something, you are encouraged to bring them here.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:54, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps what causes it is the fact that modern culture actively encourage anti-authoritarianism, hold up officers of the law for public excoriation simply for doing their duty, and do not use an adequate show of force when the problem first starts? Then as the whole thing spirals out of control less and less force is used out of fear of seeming 'overbearing', so the whole thing snowballs. If the first riot had been met with force, this would be over. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.2.209.2 (talk) 23:40, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

You should check the section "Beginning" above for more information, but generally there is much indignation among Greeks, because of multiple major political scandals, poor education funding, poverty, low salaries, very low pensions for the elderly, the economical crisis etc. Let's say that the boy's death was the spark for violence. It has nothing to do with greek culture, I assure you. :-( The previous days cnn news has made an amount of accurate analysis. Example - 79.131.0.100 (talk) 13:04, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Not officers

All "policemen" and "police officers" phrases in the article must be replaced by the term "special guard". The 2 crime suspects are not officers. They have no rank. Ranks of Greek police officers are no.9. From, let’s say, commandant-lieutenant through major-general. Officers are graduates of the Police Officers Academy. The 2 crime suspects are not warrant-officers. Ranks of warrant-officers of Greek police are no.3, lets say warrant-officer, chief-warrant-officer and second-commandant (just below commandant-lieutenant). Warrant-officers are graduates of the Police Sergeants Academy. The term "special-guard-of-greek-police" has very accurate meaning, established on 1999 and thereon. It means armed-no-rank-guard-that-has-no-arrest-and-warrant-duties (or power/authorization). They are no graduates of no academy. Supposedly they are under the command of police-sergeants. A large number of such guards have been hired and assigned duty, possibly because of the Olympic Games ’04. Their only duty is to guard buildings. These guys are dangerous for the public if you put them on the street. Those armed employees lack discipline. They lack proper training. Following the under-investigation-crime that triggered the demonstrations and riots some additional illegal gun-use incidents have been reported. All non-warrant-officers employees of the state (namely those guards – all of them not just the 2 that killed the kid!) must be removed of their arm-carrying immediately.--Μίκυ μαους (talk) 01:23, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

That's right actually. When referring to the two men, we should refer to them as special guards. Other parts however actually do refer to police officers.--Michael X the White (talk) 11:09, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with this change but again, we really need sources not your say so particularly since many sources have called them police officers. (While English would be prefered, Greek is fine) BTW your opinion of the danger these special guards pose is unwelcome on wikipedia. Please keep discussion on topic. Ways to improve the article is on topic. Personal opinions are not as they are not conducive to making a better article and tend to lead to unnecessary ill-feelings and arguments if people disagree with you. Nil Einne (talk) 11:23, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Noted. I'll correct it for the 2 guards. Indeed the connection between low-standards police personnel (Some 80% by numbers of the 1995-to-2003-hired police personnel are no-rank. The rest 20% are the Academy Officers and Academy Police-sergeants. Source is 2003 Ministry of Order.) and this article is questionable, or maybe theoretic.--Μίκυ μαους (talk) 05:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Should we use a map?

Draft, please help to fill in details.

To visualise where the main events happened (in central Athens, that is.) I've filled in what I knew so far: the site of the shooting incident, and a few locations I've heard mentioned in the media as focal areas of demonstrations and/or sites of major damage. Could people tell me what to add or modify? Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Stadiou, Patision and Alexandras copped it pretty hard too, as did Exarcheia itself. And what about the extensive clashes and destruction in Thessaloniki and elsewhere? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:54, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I think a demonstration mark should be placed somewhere near Attica Police Directorate [Γ.Α.Δ.Α.(Γενική Αστυνομική Διεύθυνση Αττικής)- GADA,(app. 37°59'19.27"N 23°45'10.33"E)] and damages along Alexandras Avenue.

• (7/12/2008) demonstration from National Museum, through Alexandras Avenue to the building of Attica Police Directorate stopped near the Supreme Court building (Look here [[12]],[[13]], [[14]]).
• The next day (8/12/2008) demonstration of students outside the building of Attica Police Directorate.[[15]].--Lapost (talk) 14:56, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

According to the map, there was no major damage to property in any part of Exarcheia!!! Did anyone actually look there? I have put some pics of the worst I saw this week on wikimedia -- basically, much of Stournari and the adjoining streets.Xenos2008 (talk) 02:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Collection of sources

• This is a list of possible sources in english, that might be useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.131.0.100 (talk) 17:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

arrested and arrested?

The article says: "... while 7 rioters were arrested, and another 15 were arrested."

It seems that one of those clauses is supposed to say something else. Same thing further down, where it says "... another 87 rioters were arrested, and 176 were also arrested." 80.235.57.239 (talk)

Yeah, weird. The police report quoted as a source [16], which contains the 87/176 pair (though not the 7/15 one, don't know where that's from) uses the verb "συνελήφθησαν" ('were arrested') with the 87, and the verb "προσήχθησαν" ('were led before a public prosecutor ') with the 176. But how you can lead the remaining 89 before a public prosecutor if you haven't previously arrested them, I don't know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:46, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

WHY?

Will someone PLEASE write a section about WHY this is occurring? Most of us don't live in Greece and have no idea what the hell is going on! Surely some respected authority on modern Greek society somewhere has written something about the reasons? This cannot be just because of one police killing, yet that's what the article makes it seem like. Esn (talk) 20:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't it sound senseless? Yet it is true.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:44, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Difficult to do without engaging in "original research", which we can't do. There is of course commentary out there in the media, but it will be hard to condense that into a coherent text, and definitely impossible to condense it into a clear and unified answer. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:46, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

An extensive section about why it is happening can be easily writen. It is not entirely true that a police murder caused this reactions. Although Grigoropoulos's death could cause must of this unrest on its own. In recent days there have been dozens of newspaper articles and TV talk shows, where hundrends of Greeks have stated numbers of reasons. Some of these reasons are stated repeatedly, again and again, and generally are not disputed by the majority. The most significant are the following: 1. Abuse of power by the police and police brutality. There have been far too many incidents in the past 3 decades. And this is the main reason that rioters shout anti-police slogans (mainly "cops, pigs, murderers"-as reproduced by Reyters, BBC, Sky News, etc-although the exact translation would be "cops (you are) pigs (and) murderers). 2. Economic hardship, an issue rather important for the Greeks these years; high prices, rising cost of living, low salaries (what people call the young generation is "the 700 euro generation", because the last two governments have considered a 700 euro salary is a "decent" one). To all these, the recent economic crisis has rised tensions. In addition, cause of this int. crisis, the current government cancelled some measures of relief for the Greeks, while at the same time pledged 28 billion euros of state money to "help" the bank sector. We should not underestimate the importance of economics to such events. 3. Gazillion of scandals. Ecclesiastical (which even caused the removal of the Patriarch of Jerusalem from his post), Judicial (with sub-scandals of prostitution and ancient artifacts smuggling), CIA abductions scandal (cases similar to those of Italy and Germany, following the 9/11 attacks in NYC), Vodafone tapping scandal (connected to the security of the 2004 Olympics, and resulted in an alledged suicide), DVD scandal (involving even TV presenters and MPs), Vatopedi scandal (involving a monastery, ministers of the government, off-shore companies in Cyprus and some billion euros). Far too many scandals in such a short period of time to be shallowed by the Greeks. (I could mention more minor scandals, as well as scandals involving the previous government). 4. What most people term as incapability of the current government. The forest fires of last year are mentioned as the prominent example (for which the state promised then to punish the arsonists "exemplary". None was even tried, while rumours have it that the arsonists were: socialists or real estate developers or the CIA or the Jews or the Turks or the nationalists or the communists or the wind or a mistake or the government itself... No decent answer was ever given, yet the Peloponnese was burned and dozens lost their lives). 5. Unemployment, which especially affects youths. Most of them have university degrees. This is also stated as a reason in all Greek and intern. media. No reason to explain further. 6. I do not know if this could be considered a reason, yet I am mentioning it, cause students repeatedly say it: lack of ideals and of figures to believe in. Every sector of the society seems to be corrupted (see scandals above). There can be more reasons that I cannot think of at the moment. For every single thing I've mentioned above, sources exist. The general background is slowly revealing. And so, a section about it can be created. Hectorian (talk) 23:12, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

It is obvious that the reasons for the riots lie with the views of the person stating them. Usually, those on the right end of the spectrum would not see anything deeper than hooliganism, while those on the left end of the spectrum would see social revolt. Take your pick. My guess is that there is a mix of both.--Avg (talk) 23:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Yet, according to my edit history and my Wikipedian life, I could hardly be considered as being "on the left end of the spectrum". So, as you also do, I urge people to "take their pick" (by analysing every "reasons stating person's" background as well). I urge them to see and think deeper... Hectorian (talk) 23:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

One of the articles I found quite good was from Malcolm Brabant on BBC News [17]. What rings especially true to my ears is this: Rebellion is deeply embedded in the Greek psyche. The students and school children who are now laying siege to police stations and trying to bring down the government are undergoing a rite of passage. They've seen their elders rebel against the state, they do it now. Whether they have a valid reason or not, it is as I mentioned above up for discussion. You can immediately understand a commentators affiliation by the weight he/she puts on the two events, the shooting and the looting. If you're on the left, you'll emphasize on police brutality, if you're on the right, you'll emphasize on destruction of property. In an ironic twist, if the riots continue both extreme leftist and extreme rightists will be satisfied. The former will see the system collapsing, the latter will see the need for a police state. --Avg (talk) 23:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

All things are not black and white. No need to see the system collapse and no need to have a police state. I could never imagine myself as the spokesperson of any group of people, yet I suppose that what most Greeks want, is to see the system "fixed". If someone sees no wrongoings in the current Greek system and that everything is perfect, is simply blind... Hectorian (talk) 00:04, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course, this is why I used "extreme". The truth always lies in the middle. Regarding your last remark, the question could be, are the (undeniable) faults of the system a necessary and sufficient condition for the riots? And then, isn't giving an ideological cover to the riots, a political statement by itself? It means everybody can commit riots when they are angry, but they just have different thresholds (and the youths naturally have a lower one). Is this the case? Does it even have to be? Even in large scale revolutions, not everybody was a revolutionary. So a lot of questions...--Avg (talk) 00:22, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Congrats Esn for the very important question and to Hector for the list. We need to compile the sources. I support the creation of such a section titled "probable other causes" -or something. NikoSilver 01:25, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The items on the list by Hector are the views of my self and (remarkably) 100% of my Greek friends. Of course, there are few over the age of 60 who would agree, and virtually none in political positions. Nevertheless, I would say that it represents a majority viewpoint, with the current government and elderly supporters of the 1967 coup in a clear minority. Xenos2008 (talk) 03:11, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, you and your Greek friends (including me) are not RS! :-) We need to source these, and I don't think it would be so difficult. We've been hearing all these causes across the Greek media. Sometimes as assumptions from the journalists, and other times as specific requests from organized youths. Example, I remember Evaggelatos's show (Apodeixeis kai stin politiki -late on Alpha TV, I think), where there were a couple of dozen youths saying the same stuff over and over. Also, the international media, as reported in the TV news in Greece, seems to locate and assume "deeper causes". There has to be something in print. I suggest we all do a little digging and post the sources here below Hector's 6 points before we create the subsection in the article. NikoSilver 17:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

There are now some detailed opinion polls such as the one commissioned by Kathimerini, and there are also several new ones conducted by opinion pollsters Focus in Kolonaki. I haven't saved the news reports, but I recall that they confirmed more or less these ideas, too. Xenos2008 (talk) 19:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I found one here that lists several reasons:

Ποικίλα τα αίτια της “εξέγερσής” τους: επαγγελματικά αδιέξοδα, κοινωνικός αποκλεισμός, υλιστικές εμμονές, εκπαιδευτική ανία. Καλό είναι, πάντως, να μην ξεχνάμε ότι ασχέτως κοινωνικού στάτους, τα παιδιά αυτά είναι οι γόνοι της γενιάς της αμφισβήτησης της δεκαετίας του ’70. Παιδιά που μεγαλώνουν σχεδόν μόνα τους, με προσλαμβάνουσες την κυνική συμπεριφορά, τον οπορτουνισμό, την αυτοδιάψευση των αξιών των γονιών τους και το δόγμα “εις οιωνός άριστος, αμύνεστε περί πάρτης”! Εννοείται ότι σε τέτοιες συνθήκες αποδόμησης, το μη συγκροτημένο νεανικό ταμπεραμέντο μπορεί εύκολα να γίνει έρμαιο εκμετάλλευσης διαφόρων πολιτικά και κοινωνικά επιτήδειων.

For non-English speakers, briefly, it lists: dead-end in professional future, social marginalization, material obsessions (does it mean thievery or artificial poverty?), and educational dullness. It goes on that we shouldn't forget that those are the kids of the generation of denial of the '70s while receiving cynicism, opportunism, and self-discrediting of the values of their parents and the patriotic dogma. Finally, it points out that the young temperament can be an easy victim of various political and social manipulators (it mentions the media later on). NikoSilver 23:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

"Material obsessions" should probably be translated as consumerism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.229.168 (talk) 00:45, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

We have the exact "katanalotismos" for that. Maybe the author intentionally also wants to allude to the various shop thefts that were captured from CCTVS prior to the fires. Probably we should leave it as it is. NikoSilver 13:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

This makes sense, since a lot of looting occured that doesn't square with the principled claims of most demonstrators. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.229.168 (talk) 15:32, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Video

There is a video featured in Apogevmatini main page with Alexis Kougias talking and mainly crticising the Media, saying that the special guard "said sorry", etc. Could we use it?? The source-youtube user seems like some news video-uploader from Volos. Could someone else also check it out? [18](It's at the bottom).--Michael X the White (talk) 11:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

youtube is not WP:RS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.136.238 (talk) 15:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Riots outside Greece

Do you think that events outside Greece should be covered in detail here (2008 Greek Riots)? I think we sould mention them very briefly, but another article will be needed to refer to them in detail.--Michael X the White (talk) 14:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

According to an article used in the references (http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11424&subid=2&tag=8777&pubid=2012757) It is clearly mentioned that demonstrations have taken place in all the following places (while the wikipedia article only mentions a selected few). Cities where demonstrations have taken place include: Moscow, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Berne, Berlin, Koln, Hamburg, London, Paris, Bordeaux, Grenoble, New York, San Fransisco, Rome, Brussels, Istanbul, The Hague, Madrid, Barcelona, Toledo, Zaragoza, Seville, Grenada, Melbourne, Dublin, Bristol, Bratislava, Sofia, Poznan, Warsaw, Buenos Aires, Santiago Chile. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.211.210.118 (talk) 10:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Precisely! We can't talk about what happened in all of them here!--Michael X the White (talk) 10:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

"Greek embassies in Russia were targeted by firebombers."

That's what the article says in the 'international reactions' section. But how can this be possible? How can any one country have more than one Greek embassy? Russia is one and Moscow is the one capital of Russia, and the embassy is in the capital. One Russia, one capital, one Greek embassy. Or am I missing something? Nutmegger (talk) 01:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. The source said "Greek embassies in Moscow and Rome...". Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Demonstration Champs-Elysees - Media References

Someone speaking French, please read them and use them appropriately.

• http://www.rue89.com/2008/12/13/soutien-agite-aux-jeunes-grecs-sur-les-champs-elysees
• http://www.france24.com/fr/20081213-solidarite-paris-generation-600-euros-grece-manifestations-etudiants
• http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=en&article_id=943523 --Lapost (talk) 13:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Arrested in Denmark - inconsistency between source, article and reality

I've have tried to gather resources about what happened in Copenhagen, when I realised, that even tho source is old. 62+ people were arrested and released without charges, while some newspapers claim that there have been violence, their only source seems to be the police (and activists denies). I list here three articles, which all says 63 arrested, now someone with knowledge of editing sources should probably do this, instead of me :)

• "In Denmark, protesters pelted riot police with bottles and paint in downtown Copenhagen; 63 people were detained and later released."

http://www.bakersfield.com/893/story/635460.html

• "Danish police say they briefly detained 63 people following a rally to support the demonstrations in Greece."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/12/11/europe/EU-Denmark-Greece-Protest.php

• "In Copenhagen, police detained 63 people who threw bottles and paint bombs at riot police late on Wednesday."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/3709695/Greek-protests-spread-to-European-cities.html

--80.162.11.131 (talk) 14:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The newspaper 'Politiken' http://politiken.dk/indland/article611238.ece says 62 were arrested. There are no consistent evidence about how it all went down, however there are a few facts: 62 were arrested, and police arrested them allegedly because of them vandalising (there are no sources other than the police in the articles)(next day, all of the 62 protesters were released: http://politiken.dk/indland/article611275.ece not facing charges, the arrests were to prevent further vandalism and potential violence. (again, according to the police) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johanmw (talk • contribs) 14:49, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

• Yeah, there is some widespread inconsistency. I've been in contact with some of the arrested, and as far as they know, the real number is 62, but I think it is a minor detail :)According to the progressive news site of modkraft.dk, one of their photographers were attacked by police too. Dunno if that should be in there? (Soruce: [19] in danish) --80.162.11.131 (talk) 11:59, 14 December 2008 (UTC) (probably should get a username...)

I don't think the part of the photographer needs to be in here, but as long as all the danish papers says 62 were arrested, i think we should stick to that, and not 63, which are only based upon foreign news agencies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johanmw (talk • contribs) 17:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Socio-economic background : creation and corrections

I created the section, by using the some lines we had, and by expanding it since :

1. the riots are lead by young Greeks ;

2. we have data on the socio-economic situation of young westerners.

Accordingly, I added sentences about study cost, student loans, debt, graduated unemployment, demographic gabs. I added some English and French sources, explaining the situation of English or French student, which should be close to this of Greeks students. Of courses, specific articles on socio economic situation of Greek youngs are welcome ! Yug (talk) 18:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to comment, but I see this all the time: the past tense of lead is "led". The noun "lead", pronounced "led", is a metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.129.195.216 (talk) 22:36, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I corrected a bit the section "Socio-economic background" as it was very badly written in a grammatic and spelling sense. I also added facts more related to why the students and the police are so hostile to each other. Some parts may need citation, I'll add them later - or someone else might be up to the task since most of the websites are in greek :-).

By the way, I think that using articles in greek as citations isn't really a good "strategy". The english version of Wikipedia is meant to be read by people from many countries the vast majority of which will understand english but not greek, thus they cannot clik a link and read and understand what it says. In my opinion, this defeats the purpose of having citations. Geohack (talk) 14:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Other language citations are fine. The editors speaking and reading Greek are here to transfer what the citation says to this article. The reader does not need to click and read because we have already provided him what he anyway would like to read. That's the purpose of this encyclopedia really, otherwise it would just be a catalogue of X sources relevant to Y matters.--Michael X the White (talk) 14:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I believe the truth is somewhere in-between. The article will always be a "resume" of the events, and the details should also be available through the citations to everybody - not just what the editors (a terribly small group in relation to the ones who will read it) think is appropriate. Open source is far more than "everyone can edit it", it also means "everyone can see what's in it". In any case, I'm more than happy to add the citations in any language as needed, though I have to object and propose that we use the citations in a way that more people have access to the "deeper" information.

I also think we must stop confusing (in-article) the peaceful demonstrations and rallies with the riots - demanding change is hardly rioting :-)Geohack (talk) 18:12, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure, demonstrations are not riots. Anyway, anyone who has a reliable source in English is obviously welcome to add info in this article. Excluding Greek siurces however will be deleting more than 5/6 of the article, if not more. As the situation is in Greece, it's the greek media that are more accurate and updated more often. So it actually is a necessity to use Greek sources to have this running and up to date.--Michael X the White (talk) 19:01, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The riots and political crisis

what the registered users need to do is expand the riots and political crisis section of the article, you can, for example use this greek wikipedia section http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ταραχές_του_Δεκεμβρίου_2008_στην_Ελλάδα#.CE.99.CF.83.CF.84.CE.BF.CF.81.CE.B9.CE.BA.CF.8C. it is much more urgent to complete this section so that foreigners can realise that the extent of the demonstrations and protests is not as high, widespread and random as it seems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.158.25 (talk) 19:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Background section

The section on "Socio-economic background" needs to be reworked for NPOV, in such a way that it's all attributed as somebody's opinion. We, as Wikipedia, ought not to be proposing such an analysis, and we should not present statements of facts that are not immediately related to the riots (such as statements about economic problems, police misbehaviour etc) and directly juxtapose them with statements about the causes of the riots in such a way as to insinuate a connection, in our own voice. What we can and should say is something like: "Most commentators agree that [...] Many commentators have said [...] Some commentators drew attention to the fact that [...] On the other side, other commentators stressed that [...]". That's what the section ought to look like. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Fut here. Myself I added some phrases like those mentioned (for example, "British newspapers say that") but I noticed that they were later removed. To everyone: please be careful in respecting NPOV and not doing OR.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

+1 from me. Please respect NPOV. And we don't have a "most" or even "many". Each serious commentator (serious meaning not those who just copy/paste other people's ideas) seems to come to their own conclusion.--Avg (talk) 23:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

There is a statement here: http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=941872 . Afaik it is written by activists from Athens. Could be something to mention? (the English translation is under the Greek one, but it is badly translated. I've used the last day trying to translate it into Danish, but it is almost impossible, without help from people who DO understand Greek.) --80.162.11.131 (talk) 12:04, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Not a suitable source, sorry. We need analysis by independent commentators (reputable international media, or better yet, political scientists), not the propaganda declarations by the involved parties. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:55, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I know, which is why I posted it, instead of just go into edit rampage ;) I hoped that someone, with more knowledge on what is going on, or someone who have read one or more sources something alike that, would maybe post and/or edit :) Well, I better go look for sources then.--80.162.11.131 (talk) 14:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if lengthy pieces of an analysis by political scientists can be found at the moment. The riots are not yet over, and perhaps everyone would prefer to see their ending before editting (do not forget that "the winners write the history"...). However, international media agree that corruption, scandals, unemployment and economic conditions undisputably are among the main reasons. Thus, I cannot quite understand why the OR tab in the section. Hectorian (talk) 14:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Another level, though, on which we need to make sure we attribute properly, is distinguishing between facts and perceptions. It is irrelevant for us whether the Greek government really is ineffective, or whether the Greek state really is corrupt, or whether the Greek police really is brutal. What matters here is that they are perceived as such, by significant sections of society, and that's what we ought to be saying. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I do not understand what you are saying. "Facts and perceptions": can't it be facts=perceptions? Why do we have to make so general distinctions, even when the facts (riots, protests, demonstrations) obviously agree with the perception most Greeks have about the causes of them? By saying and editting in a way such as "significant sections of society perceive the state as corrupt, the police as brutal, the government as ineffective", we obviously underestimate people's IQ... And, in order to be clear enough: the police is brutal (who would disagree that shooting a teenager dead is not a form of brutality?), the state is corrupt (even those who are trying to cover up the scandals, acknowledge their existence, they just say themselves are not involved), the government is ineffective (the continuing disorder can't fool anybody about that). If we are about to talk about perceptions just cause we would like to "foddle some ears" and to put the blame on fate, we do no good. Hectorian (talk) 15:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for inventing the verb "foddle", it will soon constitute a priceless enrichment to our vocabulary. Somehow I have the feeling it renders the meaning of the Greek phrase much better than any real English words could :-)) Seriously though: Do you really not see a difference between "The Greek state is corrupt" and "people perceive of the Greek state as corrupt"? While both sentences are probably true, only the second sentence is pertinent to the topic of this article, and easily verifiable from neutral reliable sources. The first much less so. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

As a non-native english speaker, I suppose I am allowed to make some mistakes from time to time. The verb I intended to use was "fondle", in a sentence-translation from Greek which I read somewhere above. I know you speak Greek, so I guessed you would understand what I meant:). It is hard to see a difference about what you said, cause I live here, I am a Greek and I watch every day what is going on, and so these two sentences seem exactly the same. I believe the Greeks are right about what they perceive in this issue; and I disapprove the usage of the word "perception" in the said section, because I find it deliberately misleading. The reliable sources that can be quoted (international media such as BBC, Reuters, Libération, to name a few), do not mention alledged corruption or perception of corruption; they take corruption for granted. Hectorian (talk) 16:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

They do, we do, Wikipedia can't, unless attributed to somebody. On the other hand I agree with Hector that the word "perceived" carries an (incorrect) sense of "imaginary". I suggest we write something in the lines of "accused of corruption". To accuse somebody does not make you necessarily delusional, and saves the "taking for granted" thing from WP's part. NikoSilver 17:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Yep, "they accuse" is certainly much better than "they pereceive" and "they take for granted". Even if I see "perceiving" as neutral enough, but I think "accusing" is more clear and fits well here.--Michael X the White (talk) 19:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Symbolism

I wonder if we could have a seperate section about the symbolism of the targets. This way the escalation of the riots and the causes of them would be illustrated more clearly. The international as well as the Greek media make references to police stations, commercial districts, banks, ministries, bublic buildings and judicial courts as been targetted by the rioters. Even the burning of the Christmas tree in Syntagma square also had a symbolism. The way the article stands now seems as if the rioters do not discriminate their targets. And certainly tis is not the case. Hectorian (talk) 15:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

What is the symbolism of burning the Christmas tree? (It's not that I agree or disagree that there is a symbolism, but I just ask because I don't know ;) ).--Michael X the White (talk) 15:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, before we talk about the symbolism, we should have a more comprehensive factual list of targets? Like, with numbers, places, sites of the major fires that have actually destroyed buildings and so on? Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with FP; I wanted to give a hint about the symbolism and to express my intention to create (or help in the expansion) of a section like that. As an answer to Michael X the White, I could say what I have heard a lot these days: "They (the politicians) did not give a damn about the thousands of burnt alive trees in Ilia, yet they mourn for the burning of the dead one in Syntagma". Not that I agree with this torching; I am simply trying to see behind the facts. Hectorian (talk) 16:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

since you guys need "a more comprehensive factual list of targets? Like, with numbers, places, sites of the major fires that have actually destroyed buildings and so on?" why did no one pay attention to the comment added by 85.72.158.25 19:32, 13 December 2008 of course maybe you ignore all anon comments so i won't have any luck either... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.203.157.43 (talk)

"Criticism" section

... far, far, far too long. Does anybody think any reader will be interested in a year's time who said what in the parliament? Avoid "recentism", we're an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Reduce this to three or four sentences please. There's also no reason to have two separate sections on "Domestic response" and "criticism", both are essentially the same. Please merge. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Domestic response covers the reactions to the riots and involves commenting on the riots while the criticism section covers the criticism for the stances vis-a-vis the riots. So it's not the same thing. In fact, data in "criticism" were once in "reactions" but where moved to "criticism" for the above reasons. What I can now see in criticism (except "criticism on the media") is the criticism of all parliamentary parties in the two political powers that actually are greatly criticised at the moment: the government and SY.RIZ.A.. One could reduce the paragraphs but in the same time not reduce the info.--Michael X the White (talk) 22:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see, 90% of it is entirely non-notable political talk of the day, with no prospect of lasting significance whatsoever. So people are giving speeches in parliament and blaming each other for stuff? Big news. As if they ever did anything else. Come on guys. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Can somebody rework this sentence please: "Georgios Karatzaferis referred to a press release of the newspaper "Adesmeutos Typos" that, he claimed, had an MP of the Coalition supporting this terrorism and accused SYRIZA of not condemning the riots". I have no idea what it is trying to say, and the phrase "this terrorism" needs to be more clearly ascribed to its author. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I had a look at that. I'll try and rewrite/rephrase the section tommorow morning. Btw, Karatzaferis said axactly terrorism (τρομοκρατία).--Michael X the White (talk) 23:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone with a brain actually care what Karatzaferis did or didn't say? Xenos2008 (talk) 02:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

No, but those with a brain would report what he said in a way that is attributed to him and only him, for all those with or without a brain to be informed and draw their own conclusions. NikoSilver 17:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

LOL Xenos2008 (talk) 19:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Molotov cocktail?

Previously cited news coverage reflected a claim by the police that the deceased was in the process of throwing a Molotov cocktail when he was shot. Have the police retracted this claim, was it a reporting error, or has it simply been removed from the article? Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 00:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I live in Athens and watch the news regularly, but I had never heard of that until I read this article. What was the source? NikoSilver 00:37, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it was in one of the earliest police reports. There's a link to it somewhere in the article, but the server was down earlier today when I last checked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Found it. It was CNN and the quote reads:

A police statement about the boy's death said the incident started when six young protesters pelted a police patrol car with stones. The 16-year-old boy was shot as he tried to throw a fuel-filled bomb at the officers, police said.

Again, first time I heard this, and I'm not aware of such a statement. Is there any other source to back it up? Anyone else? NikoSilver 00:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

CNN would have been working ultimately from the police report I mentioned. I think it must also have been in the English-speaking Athens News. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

It was certainly not in the Athens News! The rival Athens Plus, owned by the International Herald Tribune and Kathimerini did, however, publish a reader's letter containing the petrol bomb claim.--Damac (talk) 10:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

If we verify this, then we should write something along the lines of "Originally the police had said ... but later it was retracted." Anyway, it seems strange to me I never heard it in the news. I was watching all night the first 2-3 days... NikoSilver 00:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the Greek police talks like that only to foreigners. They didn't even dare to say such a thing in the Greek media. Hectorian (talk) 01:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

If this statement is inserted in the article, we should also add a clarification that such a statement was never said on the Greek media and never presented to the Greek public. And so, let the readers draw their own conclusions... Hectorian (talk) 01:15, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The initial international reports were full of nonsense, and such claims never appeared anywhere in the Greek media. Furthermore, no eyewitnesses (I live 3 streets away) made such claims, and the international reports did not cite their source. I think we just ignore bad reporting, since it sheds no light on anything at all. Yesterday, the CNN website claimed that the rioting was in its 15th day... I know where I will not go to for any accurate reporting of anything. Xenos2008 (talk) 02:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

My idea exactly... NikoSilver 17:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Another foreign news report mentioning the fire bomb claim is here. I'm almost certain I had read it in some Greek sources too, in the beginning, but I can't find which it was. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:27, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Fut some of us would have heard it here. Plus all the officials (including MIPO Prokopis Pavlopoulos), possibly in an attempt to seem agreeable and calm the crowd, went as far as to talk about "murder" from their first appearances to the media. I wouldn't make a case for it otherwise. Let's see if we get additional sources. NikoSilver 17:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

THe problem with the internet is that once some useless newspaper publishes a piece of malakia, often others copy without attribution and what is actually replication appears to be confirmation...Xenos2008 (talk) 19:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Infobox?

Nice new photos, thanks for getting those, but the collage is too large for an infobox, it takes up almost the whole screen on some displays. The collage also cuts out important elements from some of the images used. Also, calling that whole thing an infobox is a bit of a misnomer: it contains absolutely no info. Can't we just insert the images the normal way and get rid of the silly box? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually inclined to agree here; the box really is pretty large. The collage is rather nice, but a bit unnecessary. GlassCobra 17:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

External link dispute

If NPOV rules apply to external content, does that mean that I can't put a link to the communist manifesto in the "communist manifesto" article because it is biased in favor of the "communist manifesto"?! I am sorry, but that is just plain silly. If an external link is politically subjective, but it is relevant to the article in question, than we have the "external link" section for the purpose of giving it as a source of further investigation.

Maybe I did not make myself clear when I said that "NPOV rules do not apply to external content". But I've been dealing with outside reviews about every subject in wikipedia' articles for a very long time, and I understand that to be common practice.

Can someone please explain me why the page from the anarchist publication has no relevance in this case? Maziotis (talk) 15:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

You can have a link to the "Communist Manifesto" because the manifesto is a notable object of explicit encyclopedic discussion, discussion supported by yet other reliable sources, so having a link to its text is a useful help for the article. That particular anarchist blog here is not such a notable object. I'm not seeing mainstream media quoting it, describing it, discussing it, nothing. It's just some guy spreading his personal propaganda. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

So this is a question of not being notable or violating the "neutral point of view" policy? Maybe the two are connected? Please be more specific. You did say that NPOV applies to external CONTENT. Maziotis (talk) 16:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The two are interconnected. If you want to include an external link because of its value as a source of factual information, the source has to be reliable and reasonably neutral, just like sources we use in footnotes. If you want to include it because of its value in documenting a certain partisan opinion, then the person and their opinion must be notable; this in turn must be documented by independent third-party sources. This particular blog is neither reliable, nor neutral, nor notable, so it fails either way. For general guidelines, please see WP:EL. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:52, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't seem very clear in what "neutrality" is concerned. An album review, for example, is far from being "reasonably neutral", it's not "documented by independent third-party sources", and I don't believe it is excluded by the wiki policy on external links. I really can't seem to understand any of your pointed criteria, other than "notability".

What about the possibility of a major news network being "notable" but not being neutral? You can find notable authors in the media field that ascertained that some news channels fail to merely "report the facts". Under what authority then would you judge what sources to include.Maziotis (talk) 16:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

PS - I have also failed to see how what you described constitutes the two rules being "interconnected". A good example for me would be the policy on "original research" and "NPOV". To fully respect one of them, you have to respect the other. But this can be outside the topic in discussion. Maziotis (talk) 17:42, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

If my question - Can someone please explain me why the page from the anarchist publication has no relevance in this case? - remains unanswered, I will add the source again, in an "external links" section. I really don't see a problem in having this link - among others, with different views - as "- Occupied London An anarchist publication following the event" Maziotis (talk) 16:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

If this issue is not addressed, I will assume that it is not in dispute, and I will make use of my right to edit the article as I see justified. Reverting an edit with the justification "if you don't understand that's your problem" is not the way to solve problems in wikipedia, I believe. Maziotis (talk) 21:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

No. FutPer is right. A personal blog is not a reliable source, and it would certainly be removed from any and every article under point 11 of Wikipedia:EL#Links_normally_to_be_avoided:

"Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority (this exception is meant to be very limited; as a minimum standard, recognized authorities always meet Wikipedia's notability criteria for biographies)."

So, no. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Can you please explain exactly in what consists a "personal blog"? This page is run by an anarchist publication. It doesn't seem to fall under the category of "personal webpages". Maziotis (talk) 23:55, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

PS: It seems the issue on NPOV applying to external content will remain unanswered, I see. Maziotis (talk) 00:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't fit the bit about "an established expert on the topic of the article, whose work in the relevant field' has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". Just change "established expert" to "established organization". That org has not been cited as an authorative source by reliable third-party publications, unlike, for example, the WWF or the The Gallup Organization. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:40, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Background causes

The section about the background causes is very poorly written. I think it needs a re-write removing some POV statements and include work and opinions of academic level. For example, political scandals and unemployment that the young people face exist in many other countries but we do not see such events. In fact, the youth of Greece are in situation because they have the protection of the family and somehow they have vacations to islands every summer, something almost unheard of in other western European countries. It almost seems that the youth in Greece has too much free time to spent (do not shoot me for this).

This is a good start (it is in Greek): http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_2_14/12/2008_296059

The author of the article is Stathis Kalyvas political scientist in Yale, specialized on violence. According to his opinion the root of the problem is the cultural atmosphere created after the events of Metapolitefsi (i.e. the fall of Greek military junta of 1967–1974). This cultural atmosphere essentially, justifies or even supports violence as an expression of protesting. Hence, this atmosphere acted as a catalyst with the bad economy and other factors leading to the results we are witnessing... My two cents... A.Cython (talk) 18:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

An article from the same author analyzing the problem in english at an international newspaper (International Herald Tribune) [20]A.Cython (talk) 18:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

(I entirely agree with the 1st paragraph) The info you provide is very interesting and useful indeed... I think we should use it right away.--Michael X the White (talk) 19:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

A statement by somebody like IMF MD Kahn, (even if they do have a girlie name) should be included. Particularly as it is straight to the point. This has everything to do with the credit crisis and unfair wealth distribution in Greece--Xenovatis (talk) 19:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't in one sense protesting/rioting because of "inequality" of wealth share mean they riot because the state is not socialist??--Michael X the White (talk) 20:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how. They aren't commies or anything. They don't see anything wrong with making big mullah. They are just frustrated that they won't get the chance to make some big mullah. It's the lack of opportunities the inequality entails not the inequality per se.--Xenovatis (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I have lived in Germany and Britain to know that the youth there face the same or even worse economic challenges than the Greek youth. For example Germany also has a 7.3% unemployment rate (Greece has 6.3%) and smaller growth rate 2.4% in 2007 for Germany while for Greece 4.4% in 2006. But even with these conditions you do not see the German youth to behave like that. And do not forget that some of the participants in the riots are coming from the middle or even upper classes... so the whole argumentation that the bad economy is the root of the problem is completely wrong. Bad economy may be a factor but not the root of the problem.A.Cython (talk) 15:47, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes and the US is even more unequal. But the opportunities for advancement in those countries are there. The Economist had recently a very interesting article on that, the perception, often well founded in reality, that you can make it is enough for many people to excuse the inequality. But Greece is stiffled by cronyism, corruption and patrony. Without connections, and the right connections at that, it doesn't matter as much how good you are or how much you try.Xenovatis (talk) 16:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

THe UNDP figures show only income distribution across the population and are not really helpul. They do not show generational differences. If you want to see those, just look at unemployment rates by age group: there, Greece and Italy are the worst in Europe and much worse than the USA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.229.168 (talk) 16:59, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Somehow I disagree, with the above arguments.

• There are more opportunities in other countries because their economies are bigger in size.
• The flow of immigrant workforce is towards Germany, Britain and USA so the youth of that countries should be angry that people from other countries come and take their jobs.
• corruption and older workforce exist in even larger degree in other counties like Japan and yet we do not see such acts of violence.
• Greece and Italy both have a safety net for their youth and its called family. Again the argument of unemployment becomes secondary.
• I bet that the participants of the riots have been at least one or two times vacations to Greek islands... something that it is a luxurious way of spending time... when the british youth instead try to find summer jobs.
• The protesters are from middle and upper classes which means that have all kinds of connections and support to find a job... i do not want to remind the number of kids sent to british universities... that kind of support from the family does not exist in other countries not Britain, Germany or USA. So why do they complain when in comparison with say the French they are in better position? Also, the riots in France were from immigrants who are heavily discriminated by the French... here we have young people wearing clothes from well-known brands???

As I said the economic situation, the political scandals are certainly a factor. But they are not the root of the problem.A.Cython (talk) 18:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

A.Cython if you honestly believe the statements you made then you are certainly completelly out of touch with the greek society... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.74.217.130 (talk) 18:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

It is pity... because I am part of that society to know how it is from within. Because of its problems now I live, study and work in abroad. I know from first hand what it means unemployment! Even worse I know that I might have to spent most of my life in abroad because of the problems in Greece. Thankfully, from abroad I had the chance to see the Greek society in a more objective perspective. I also want to blame someone but blaming is not the solution... now if you want to call the above statements "out of touch"... well... then I call them "hard reality"! If you disagree present arguments not insult others! A.Cython (talk) 18:59, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

No my friend you used to be part of "that society" as you call it. This is proven by the fact that you were insulted by what 85.74.217.130 said. What you call "hard reality" i simply call "clouded perception". After all you basically admitted that you don't know anything about Greek history after WW2 by saying that nothing like this has ever happened before.--Der Blaue Reiter (talk) 19:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

No no no! What A.Cython says is correct but there are are some other ways to see tha situation as well. Personally I agree with A.Cython.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

why is it correct Mike please i would like an answer with actual proof instead of saying that this political scientist said that or the other...--Der Blaue Reiter (talk) 20:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Dear Der Blaue Reiter, if you bothered to read the beginning of this section, you would find your answer:

The author of the article is Stathis Kalyvas political scientist in Yale, specialized on violence. According to his opinion the root of the problem is the cultural atmosphere created after the events of Metapolitefsi (i.e. the fall of Greek military junta of 1967–1974)....

If think this is enough to answer your question. Feel free the article as well...A.Cython (talk) 23:58, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

i've read the whole section and i saw you mentioning S.Kalyvas i do not accept his theory a lot of people in and outside of greece do not accept his theory and events like this have happened before the "Metapolitefsi".--Der Blaue Reiter (talk) 20:34, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh... I thought you've said what experts on the field are saying... sorry my mistake! what you are actual looking is "proof" to your liking... well i thought that WP is about objectivity not a collection of POVs! A.Cython (talk) 20:56, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

You're also wrong about that wikipedia is meant to be a collection of NPOVs! (and by the way it seems to me that you're trying to make us reach conclusions that are to your own "liking"). you're also making the mistake of thinking that i and others are contributing our own thoughts in the article we are contributing widely accepted positions not theories or our own pov's that's why we have ciatations or else this whole article would be WP:OR ok? also i hope you can forgive me for trying to trace the causes of the events to things that immeciatelly affect greece instead of something that happened 30+ years ago Metapolitefsi, after all reconciliation has been achieved during this and the previous goverments.--Der Blaue Reiter (talk) 21:19, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

international reactions

In the section international reactions the page states that at demonstration i denmark turned violent. That is not quite true, as can be read here http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=da&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpolitiken.dk%2Findland%2Farticle611275.ece&sl=da&tl=en (a google translate of an article for the danish newspape Politiken), since all the arrested was released without charges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.238.113.244 (talk) 22:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Remove links to Molotov instructions now!

The article contains an internal link to the Wikipedia article about Molotov cocktails, which includes information on how Molotov works, as well as an external link which has more details. The 2008 riots article should not include any links to information that could be useful to the breach of peace, at least as long as this is a current event. So, I say, remove the link now, and if you want put it again after the country is safe from further civil unrest. Fotisaros (talk) 22:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Foti do you seriously think that those interested in throwing a Molotov cocktail don't know that it is as simple as lighting the fuel soaked rag that taps a glass bottle filled with liquid fuel? They are anarchists, not idiots. NikoSilver 22:51, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The reason I advise to keep the link off the article, at least until the riots end, is that because this is a current event many people may search for info about it, and maybe some kid may end up here clicking the link, learning for the first time about this stuff, and then attempting to build one to prove themselves or something, putting themselves or others in danger. Fotisaros (talk) 00:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. Especially not for short amounts of time. The internet is filled with instructions on how to make a molotov coctail, and so is the average bookstore. Murderbike (talk) 01:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

yes, this is all pointless. If a kid thinks it's cool to make a "molotov cocktail" by reading this article, don't you think that he would remember to type "molotov cocktail" on wikipedia or google? They all go directly to the page you want to avoid. Maziotis (talk) 14:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Plus it doesn't exactly require you to be a nuclear physicist to create one... NikoSilver 18:47, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

They can find them anyway. The links make no difference. Besides, there are professors that teach things like that in schools if asked....So...! For example, my chemistry teacher had taught us (at the age of 15) to make nitroglycerine. So it's not really a big deal "allowing" the links here. --Michael X the White (talk) 09:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Weasel words

The weasel words are running rampant on this page. IE: It says "Rioters were brought to justice" instead of the more nuetral terms "Tried" "Charged" or "convicted" for the same event. Somebody please fix this, I cannot due to technical problems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.219.8 (talk) 03:38, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

agreed +1 it's going to be a massacre cleaning it up especially cause the users who put in the weasel words and not neutral phrasing are registered users —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.203.175.215 (talk) 14:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

The example you brought up is not a specimen of weasel words. It's an example of literal translation; we are not trying to hide anything or use euphemisms. These problems will be fixed when the editors of this article will have the time to look at it more carefully in order to use correct English. As a matter of fact, I was the one that added the phrase "brought to justice" because the previous one was "brought forward", i.e. a literal translation of the Greek word "προσήχθησαν". There is an explanation in another part of this talk page. Cheers! Pel thal (talk) 09:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Gini coefficient

The Gini number is meaningless without some key to the map at least on the description page. 88.146.1.11 (talk) 17:16, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

It seems pretty understandable as it is explained now. Which map did you have in mind? In any case please amend it as you see fit and add any additional explanation you think is required.--Xenovatis (talk) 17:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Just saw the map. Agreed,while great it is not as helpfull as it could be. Perhaps someone with mapmaking tools can help.--Xenovatis (talk) 17:41, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

as stated above (background causes), the Gini coefficient is not useful as an explanation here, because it looks at income distribution across the whole population. Besides, I would dispute even that, since the data must come from official tax returns, with no account taken of the black economy. When you consider that the rich always benefit more from black economic activity (see OECD studies on that), then the Gini coefficient for Greece is a massive understatement of income inequalities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.229.168 (talk) 18:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

OK. What did you have in mind? If the Kahn statement stays, and I think it should, it must be explained somehow. I am open to suggestions on what would be a better measure of inequality, i.e. something in which Greece is unique among developed countries which as pointed out have not experienced riots. I am thinking corruption where I beilieve we score pretty high, so I added the relevant info.--Xenovatis (talk) 18:29, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, corruption, black economic activity (most estimates 27-35% GDP) and youth unemployment rates (have to check the latest) give additional info that just don't get into the UNDP data, really. Hpwever, these are comparable with Bulgaria and Romania... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.229.168 (talk) 19:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... I respectfully disagree with the logic of my anon friend. And I have a good reason for it. Indeed, the Gini coefficient does not include black economy, and maybe, the rich benefit more from that (which I actually doubt knowing how many laborers are declared at minimum wage and then get an additional "fakellaki" every month). Regardless, even with the black money undeclared, Greece is in the top-30 worldwide in the list of countries by GDP per capita. Which means that even if some rich black-market sharks are much richer than what declared, the rest are still rich enough for Greece to be one of the richest in the world. It all sounds to me like what the late Christodoulos had said about us Greeks: We don't choose to wish to God to present a goat in our yard; we wish Him to kill that goat our darn neighbor has in his... NikoSilver 19:05, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

We need to be carefull with the goat metaphors. There are xenoi reading this:).--Xenovatis (talk) 19:32, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

• Not entirely directly related, but the Economist has some decent articles on some of the underlying causes of the disturbances. Hiberniantears (talk) 19:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing these up. I had read them and should have thought of it myself.

This is the gist of it, and it's true.

To find out what they are, ask any of the Greek-born scholars, entrepreneurs, artists and other talented types who flourish all over the world but recoil at working in their homeland, much as they love it.As any homesick Hellene can tell you, their country can be a maddening place for people with drive and flair./blockquote>

The feel-good factor allowed the conservatives to ignore the pressing case for social reform, particularly in education, health and policing. But as the global slowdown takes effect, young Greeks see their parents struggling to pay the bills. If they cannot afford to study abroad, they get lousy tuition at a Greek university and, unless their family can pull strings, few chances of a good job. The unemployment rate for young graduates is 21%, compared with 8% for the population as a whole.

We have a saying: Greece eats her children, not accidental I think.--Xenovatis (talk) 19:29, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

These are very interesting but may I say that we had this expression for decades (and in those previous decades the economic situation was worse) but no such incidents were around. Enjoy Life! 20:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Lol 20:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC) quote:"no such incidents were around" i can give at least 5 examples from greek history if you'd like.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.201.97 (talk)

You say in the last decades you can name 5 examples of the same degree, that is riots lasting for at least a week or more!? Somehow I doubt it. But even if you give me 5 such examples you still prove my point! That is compared to the past we in better situation therefore no need to act like that. There is more than bad economy and political scandals to act like that. A.Cython (talk) 20:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Like what? A conspiracy by the pseudo-communists of SFYRIZA? A 3,000 year old tradition of rebellion? --Xenovatis (talk) 20:23, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

First of yes it is very easy to give examples of incidents like this occuring in greece in the last 6 decades, i don't know how old you are but i'm not more than 25 and i still know and remember events comperable to this one.. in any case todfay the economic situation is much much worse than it was 10 or 20 years ago. you can find proof of this in the annual reports of the governors of the Bank of Greece. just study the past 6 years to see the declining... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.201.97 (talk) 20:31, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

The reasons are not economic in the pure sense but rather social. It's not GDP drops=>riots. Rather the pent up frustration that is caused by the culture of cronyism and nepotism that prevails in Greece is released. There are about 500,000 Greek citizens, most young and educated living abroad. That is a large number for an developed country? Why? Because they don't feel they will be allowed to progress at home.--Xenovatis (talk) 20:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

i'm not trying to support a certain political party if that' where you're going it's just that at this time the greek state has run out of EU support money which means that the future looks a lot worse than it looked 10 years ago and therefore future economic projections are also bad, it is a major factor to the economical decline i mentioned before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.201.97 (talk) 20:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. This is the worst recession since 1930, of course the two are related. It would be strange if they weren't.--Xenovatis (talk) 20:39, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

@ User:Xenovatis low economic activity = unemployment = social unrest am i making a mistake? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.201.97 (talk) 20:40, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that. Note though that there is a lag, unemployment is a lagging indicator, i.e. it follows the business cycle with about a quarter to two lag with gdp. But unemployment expectations are much more immediate and I can tell you they are rising across the Eurozone. People can see it coming and are allready agitated. BTW you should think about getting an account and editing full time. Sure you will enjoy it! --Xenovatis (talk) 20:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

i know the things about the lag factor etc... so we are in agreement (at least we 2)

P.S.you're not the first person to say that about the account i just don't know how much free time i'll have in the future to contribute to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:79.131.245.60&diff=prev&oldid=258131767 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.201.97 (talk) 20:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

You 're not getting married to it. It takes 5 nanoseconds to complete and you can always ditch it once you get bored and come back later. That's what I do, anyways.--Xenovatis (talk) 20:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Going back to the Gini coefficient, everything that I said before is correct. The measurement of GDP has nothing AT ALL to do with Gini, so you should not put them together. In my professional opinion, the Greek GDP is vastly overstated for 2 reasons: (1), it includes an added 20% for estimated black economy (an Alogoskoufis trick to reduce the debt/GDP ratio); (2) I suspect that an enormous proportion of it is money-laundering, that goes only to mafia. So, now we have two indicators that conceal the inquality of Greek society: that is, Gini and per capita GDP. You have to use proxy measures to understand what is really happening, because the Greek state is determined that you will never be able to prove it. I suggest recorded unemployment by age cohort, unemployment of graduates, and long-term unemployment. These indicate more honestly the inequalities. [Xenos2008 (didnt log in)] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.229.168 (talk) 21:54, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

In response to another comment, that in previous years things were worse, I have the following comments to make. (1) The ratio of real wages to prices has collapsed since Simitis and his brilliant idea of faking the inflation rate, so that simultaneously Greece could enter the Euro and also wage increases could be pegged to an absurdly low inflation rate. The result has been continuous decline in real incomes since 1999. (2) Prior to the Simitis government, Greece had one of the most egalitarian income distriubtions around. Papandreou took care to protect the poor, whereas Simitis and Karamanlis have ignored their needs and increased taxation of the poor and middle class. (3) While taxation of the lower income groups has increased massively, taxation of the very rich is almost non-existent. Alongside massive corruption involving those same rich, people are now very aware of this. (4) Expectations are as important as reality in sociological terms, and every generation expects to do ar least slightly better than their parents. THe evidence is that this is out of the question for the age cohort 16-24, and (surprise, surprise) they are the ones rioting. [Xenos2008] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.229.168 (talk) 22:07, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

This is my last post... so here are two things we all simply avoid to face:

• Other countries are in much worse economic situation and yet we haven't seen say the London School of Economics get burned or Ecole Polytechnique in Paris to that matter. Sure there were riots but either there was an external form i.e. immigrants or the conflict was a much more civilized. So even with a bad economic situation it is still no reason to become barbarians!
• You may hide behind numbers saying that Greeks are becoming poorer due to Simitis or Karamalis policies... but the fact remains the same, just look at the clothes and the gears (i.e. mobile phones, computer, ipod) the teenagers have on them. All of them are brands and pretty expensive. This is unheard of compared in 80's or 90's. Also the Greek family becomes poorer because not only the parents spent so much money to dress and feed their children but also to educate them to the best universities, which means abroad. I repeat myself here but this is not an option for the youth in foreign counties. Hence we become poor because we spend more; we are not moderate capitalists.

So yes... the planet, the world, the economy are in bad shape... in very bad shape, yes we know that. We all around the world know that. Thank you very much. But the question remains: why in Greece and not somewhere else? Why we do not see the Piccadilly Square or the center of Rome in flames? Why we have witness such events in Athens? Is Greece a third world country? If not then it has to be cultural trend or something unique to Greek society. Maybe Greeks do not have any respect to law... but just look the facts: police was ordered to keep a complete defensive attitude, why? Karamalis had the option to order the military to enter Athens and bring order and he didn't to it, why? Also, why we do not dare to change the constitution about banning police from schools and universities to something more pragmatic say for example policemen may enter into the area only with a court order or with the approval of the head of the university? To every person Greek or non-Greek that I have talked to about this they think the unrestrained freedom is completely wrong and yet we do not fix it... why? Feel free to think about it... but at the end of the day blaming everything to economy or as the Greek youth say it is the system's fault, i do not think it is the reality... anyway... I think the following quote suits the situation

"To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." --George Orwell A.Cython (talk) 00:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I have not posted any comment for a day or so about the worst riots (or the Greatest social uprising since Metapolitefsi, as the majority of the Greeks called them in recent polls), but your comment attracted my attention.

• If targetting university buildings is the only form of "barbarism", the Greeks are unique (I suppose) in post-war Europe. As an educated person, and without of course underestimating the importance of universities, I think I can see other serious forms of barbarism as well. And to be a bit clearer, in a cynic way, everything that was burnt down during the riots, could be cause of "ricochets of molotov coctails" (and I am sure everyone understands what I mean). Violence brings violence and barbarism is linked with it.
• Every decade and every era has its standards, in clothing and gadgets and all. Comparatively, the Greeks who want to be "up to date" as of 2008, are poorer than the "up to date" Greeks of the '80s. It is not only the expensive brands and te best education for their children, but also the reduction of their salaries (in real money, or, in other words, their purchasing power) and the rise of taxes; and these are both things the recent governments are to be blamed for.

Just cause it happened in Greece first it does not mean it won't happen elsewhere soon. Sarkozi cancelled his education reforms in France out of fear that Paris would turn to be like Athens. The international media refer constantly to the threat that unrest can spread to others countries, because all Europeans face the same problems. Maybe in Greece the problem was far greater and ruthlessly underestimated. The reason the police was ordered to keep a complete defensive attitude is obvious: the government, the system if you prefer, could not stand another hero... Saying that Karamalis had the option to order the military to enter Athens is not completely true. The President is the head of the armed forces and I doubt Mr Papoulias would ever allow the army to enter Athens. I tend to consider more real the possibility he would disolve the parliament and send Karamanlis home (he has the power to do that), rather than allow an army to take over... The head of each university has the power to allow the police enter the university buildings. But I also doubt any of them would allow this. Maybe unrestrained freedom is not good, but unrestrained power definately is not. And the politicians in recent years have shown they have no (or little) respect to the Greek public. Is there any need to mention again the numerous scandals, the non-existent punishments for those on power (when they obviously break the laws themselves are making!) and the empty promises we all hear before each elections? Once the Greeks realised they have become pions, they went enraged. To end with, I do not think we have to fix our purported "unrestrained freedom", but our system. Either the politicians (who have this power) will fix it, or they will collapse along with it. Hectorian (talk) 01:48, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree with anything at all written above by A. Cython and Hectorian. If we ask the question "Why Greece and nowhere else?" we enter the realm of speculation, prediction and even fantasy. There is little space for science in this, and intelligent informed opinion is at least as good as expert opinion. I will suggest (very tentatively) several possible reasons why the conditions were right for this to happen in Greece. First, the country for several years has been wracked by disillusionment with the state and governments: this involves the weekly exposure of massive corruption and nepotism, declining incomes and employment prospects, the post-Olympics decline in social and state order (remember how we all felt at the time of the Olympics?), rising taxes. etc etc. Secondly, Greece has a continuous history of demonstrations against the state -- usually not so violent, but still... Thirdly, this started in Exarcheia (not Maroussi, or Hamburg, or Middlesex) and involved a teenage middle class kid being shot dead in daytime for no apparent reason, with dozens of witnesses. Fourthly (and here is where it might be transferable to other countries), mobile phones allowed young people to rapidly communicate the facts (yes, evidence from actual witnesses) to their friends and contacts across Greece and ultimately, the world.

Politicians across Europe do need to pay attention, because it could happen elsewhere. However, in this instance, I think it would have been surprising if nothing had happened in reaction to the killing. Only in the UK, where the police seem to be trying to create some sort of police state, is public reaction to such things heavily muted. Thank God that Greeks have not allowed themselves to be socially castrated, as most of the British (a generally more violent society) are in relation to state abuse of power. Xenos2008 (talk) 02:17, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't resist... guys you just proved the points I was arguing about... both of you Xenos2008 and Hectorian. Initially, I had doubts about the theory Stathis Kalyvas (a political scientist and expert on violence from Yale) but now you convince me. Here is how:

• "...Greece has a continuous history of demonstrations against the state..." therefore you do admit that there is a cultural trend in the Greek society that tolerates or even supports such acts. Just remember the celebrations we have every year at the schools for 17th of November, where such acts brought down the dictatorship. In todays' youth minds the dictator is the system and that's what they want to demolish. Also, everyone is against fakelaki (bribery) and yet if we are the person to take it we do take it! Thus there is indeed a cultural trend. Good job for bringing this up.
• "the government, the system if you prefer, could not stand another hero" if the same thing happens in Germany or in Britain I am pretty sure they would have a pretty aggressive attitude, not defensive, especially if a building of historical importance was on fire... so why in Greece the government does not dare to act? And if there was a "continuous history of demonstrations against the state", as Xenos2008 pointed out, why there were no measures taken earlier? Why the politicians do not dare to change the constitution and fixed known loopholes in it that indirectly support such acts?
• "Politicians across Europe do need to pay attention, because it could happen elsewhere." I hate to remind you that we elected them. Their actions is our responsibility! And yet here we are: the economy is bad and we witness the youth further destroying the economy with damages and scaring the investors to bring more money to the country while at the same time we blame the politicians. We listen their promises and we vote and we vote them again even if we see that they do not keep their promises. Don't you think it is a little too cliche to blame the politicians!
• "Thank God that Greeks have not allowed themselves to be socially castrated, as most of the British (a generally more violent society) are in relation to state abuse of power." Thank god we the Greeks are stupid to keep both our eyes and minds shut. Britain has problems of violence but they keep it under control and they try to deal with it in their own democratic fashion. You call Britain police state I call Britain organized while I call Greece a country with a culture that favors hypocrisy and arrogance. What exactly we the Greeks do to deal with our problems? The answer is nothing. Oh wait I know we blame the system and the politicians. That's right, that's what we do...
• "Comparatively, the Greeks who want to be "up to date" as of 2008, are poorer than the "up to date" Greeks of the '80s." Eh...? So... Gross domestic Product per capital has not changed from 80's till now... other relative indexes reflecting the quality of life did not go up compared with the 80's... what are you talking about!? They went up all of them! I will give an example why we in trouble now. Look at the Greek farmers in the 80's and now. What is the difference? The difference is that in 80's they got money from EU for investing into new technologies etc but the farmers instead to invest they bought one or two BMW or Mercedes, built a couple of villas etc etc... and I have seen that with my own eyes at my father's village. I can tell you more tragic stories but anyway. So now they have their cars and villas but they are unable to compete in the international market and what do they do? They block roads with their old trackers and blame the politicians. Compared with the 80's we do get more money but at the same time we spent more money on things, which most of them are luxuries. Having the latest model of mobile phone or have an ipod it is a luxury, not a necessity! Two classic examples of luxuries that Greeks must have no matter what!

(1) Every child (including the children of the Greek farmers) for three or more years will have a personal tutors for different classes or attends frontistio. It is bloody expensive and it comes in addition of the public school which functions with the parent's tax money! Sure tutors exist in other countries but the degree of usage in Greece is beyond madness! Our own constitution states free education and yet we spend more money on education than any other European without any positive effects... madness i tell you! Again remember that we elect the politicians for not fixing the problem!

(2) It does not matter how but the Greeks must have holidays to the islands. This is a fashion which started in the 60's. Before that the concept of going to the islands was vacations was unheard of. In fact if you had a suntan it was considered a bad thing because it meant that you are poor enough to work outside in the countryside for many hours. Now we must have a suntan otherwise you will be considered poor enough not to have the free time and money to be in the islands to get a suntan!

We created a cultural trend/addiction of good life where we spend more money than we get, we are not working efficiently and of course it is not our fault, it is always someone's else... while at the same time we are sympathetic towards protests even when they turn to violence and with our votes, protests and briberies we maintain a weak government unable function and fix problems in education, health or in economy! That's the catalyst, which in combination with all other problems i.e. bad economy, political scandals etc lead to this kinds of violence.

Thank you both for your excellent points and convincing me that Stathis Kalyvas was actually right. Do not forget that the we are the system and unless we change attitude we will see much more worse effects. A.Cython (talk) 13:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree on these points, A. Cython. I am not Greek (British, actually) so my perceptions -- despite living in Greece -- are a little more detached than those of most Greeks. Kalyvas is a good researcher and despite living in the USA knows the Greek situation well. One of the biggest problems in Greece is, as you say, the failure actually to address obvious problems. Some of this is caused by lack-lustre politicians, but it is also derived (in my view) from a very traditionalist or conservative culture: for this, we can (historically) blame the Orthodox Church, along with poor education levels for the older generations. I do not hold out much hope that ND will address a single problem, and I am certain that PASOK (with its current leadership) will make things worse. So, the prognosis is not good.Xenos2008 (talk) 14:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the "traditionalist conservative culture" is what is meant here. The culture A.Cython describes is the "life of the easy way" that does not involve working ourselves and trying ourselves to do something, but instead bribing and using "friends and friends of friends" (μέσον) to help us. What you describe as "traditionalist conservative culture" (and perhaps that is justified by not being Greek) does not have anything to do with that and is the Greek culture; that is not a Western culture (not with the political sense), nor is it a Eastern culture (i.e. Arabic). It is a culture of its own that is in the middle, and that is why there is "φιλότιμο". The Mother Church (Orthodox) has certainly been a blessing for Greeks the past centuries rather than something one should blame. The Church has helped more than anyone else during our Independence struggles and has helped educate and maintain the Greek national sentiment; of course, there are recently some corrupt members of it, but we can safely say that the Church is not corrupt nor it should be blamed for anything. Actually, all Greeks are against "globalisation" in the sense of our culture being assimilated to the western (Anglo-American) culture. Greeks are proud of their culture, but they are not proud of themselves or their country. What Kalyvas says, (and I think is right) is that we've let everything to be done by the state and the politicians while doing nothing ourselves. Greeks like to give instructions to the state while not acting themselves. They even act against what they "instruct".

Now, the education problem of the elder is clearly a result of WWII nad the Civil war.--Michael X the White (talk) 14:45, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

@ Xenos2008 I understand your points as well. I see the problems Britain has with violence, alcohol, and with abuse of power. I am Greek and I live in Britain. But I prefer to be in Britain than in Greece and most likely I will spent many more years in abroad because of the problems in Greece.

But there is no point on blaming others... I do not know if it was the fault of the elders or the church... i think all Greeks with their actions or inactions (as the Michael X the White points out) contributed to this mess... what we can do at least in WP is to write as objectively as we can and for this particular case to raise the awareness of the problems to most people. I guess that's life... A.Cython (talk) 15:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, in reply to Michael X: the traditional culture of Greece for several hundred years has been patronage and corruption (in Ottoman times), scarcely modified after the Revolution but supplemented with international handouts in the 19th century to the non-industrialised country that would otherwise have probably failed. This was then repeated when Greece joined the EEC in 1981. While I am reluctant to "blame" persons or institutions, the historical reality is that the Orthodox Church did not do anything for anyone other than itself. This delusion that it somehow saved Greece from the Ottomans is but one of many fictions that permeate modern Greece. IN that sense, i agree totally with A. Cython that Greeks need to take responsibility for their country and their future, and not look to the state to solve what are longer-term cultural problems.

On the other hand, the Greek state is corrupted and ineffective. In the context of riots, ask yourself why the Special Guard don't have watercannon to disperse violent protests. Why do they have such poor training and low pay, yet carry loaded guns? Why are there not continuous checks and controls on the psychological condition and poltiical leanings of the Special Guard? Nobody seems to bother asking these questions to any extent, yet everyone just complains. It is not sufficient to criticise: it is necessary to crtically evaluate and make proposals for improvement. Yet almost nobody does, and this reflects another failure -- of the intelligentsia of Greece. They are in hock to political parties, and refuse to comment except along crude party political lines. Anyway, enough for now! Xenos2008 (talk) 15:29, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

It is really promising to see so that people today (and mostly te young generations) are able to think so clearly. I have seen this recently on te streets and on the media, concerning the students, and here as well (I am taking for granted that none is of us is that old). Firstly, I am sorry, but I yhave limited knowledge of Kalyvas's theory. As a reply to A.Cython's points (based on mine and Xenos2008's:

• Most countries have continuous histories of demonstrations against the state. If we need examples: France, Italy, all the Eastern European and the Latin American countries. For my part, I tend to believe that if the states were better, people (at least the Greeks) would not demonstrate/rebel/uprise.
• You may be sure about what Germany and Britain would have done. I believe neither Germany nor Britain (in their current form) would have found themselves in that position. I believe that in Germany and Britain, if a policeman kills a kid, he goes to jail. In Greece, this has never happened. And please, someone correct me if I am wrong!
• You are :dragging" me in a very deep discussion... A Greek comedian (Harry Clynn to be precise) said many years ago: "why should you vote? they will be elected anyway!". Need I have to remind that the 58% of the Greeks did not vote for ND in the last elections? Just because the two major parties are allergic to political coalitions, they decided to lower the theshold for a new government. And the other smaller parties are doing everything decent and indecent to just rise their percentage some 0.+. Furthermore, the Greek democratic system suffers from nepotism. Has anyone ever tried to see how many of the current MP are children or cousins or godchildren of former politicians? Someone would say that the Greeks choose them through elections, but in reality, we do not have any other choices. Just cause your dad or uncle was a good PM or President, does not necessarily mean that you are too... Politics should not be a "family bussiness"; in fact, it shouldn't even be a "bussiness"... People, and especially politicians, should look up again the word "democracy" in a dictionary.
• Britain has her own problems. She has been castrated and increasingly a police state cause of her own politicians' mistakes. Thankfully, in Greece we have no terrorism. Thankfully, we are not involved in wars. I hope the British one day will realise that any sacrifice of their rights they made was cause of their politicians, and not cause of any external foe. And, btw, British politicians are not saints... Blair made the war on Iraq based on lies... I have not seen him paying for that. If the British do not react, they are co-responsible. Since the Greeks react against what their politicians do, they are not.
• Shouldn't there be any state control on the EU money? Apropos, we does Greece always return money to the EU? The EU gives us money to modernise our economy and to build infrastructure, but the Greek politicians are incapable to use it! When they use the 70% of it, they call it "success"! We all have heard from them sentences like "η απορροφητικότητα του Γ' πλαισίου στήριξης έφτασε στο 60%", but never at 100%! Since the '80s, people changed, times changed, necessities as well. And since we are talking about "real money" (I suppose), taxes also multiplied in "real money". In fact, everything is much more expensive today, than it was, not in the '80s, but a few years ago. And I am not talking about mobile phones and iPods. I am simply talking about food... Or electricity: a +20% rise since last year, certainly is not to be attributed to the Greek consumers...

(1) A.Cython, did you attend a Greek school in Greece? Have you got any idea what stone age PCs the students use in computer lessons? A few weeks ago I entered such a classroom; in those PCs you could only insert a floppy disk... we are talking about a pre-CDROM era! Another example: C class of Luceum, History book, page 173, "Indira Ghandi, the current PM of India"! The ministry does not even bother to update the books... Of course the students will go frontistiria, because they have no choice. Btw, frontistiria are illegal under Greek law, but the state tolerates them. And people elct the politicians, because they have no other option (unless we consider what is going on these days as an "option")

(2) Shall we lock our doors, shut our windows and stay in our cities forever? The Greeks have every right to go on their islands, drink as hell, (and many other things I opt not to say). If someone does/can not go on his/her own, is one thing for which he/she is responsible; if he cannot go cause of tax rises and unemployment is another, for which the government is responsible.

• (Bonus) Just cause I have read a lot about the current rate of unemployment in Greece. That it is 7.4% and that this is really high. In fact, unemployment rate is far higher than that. University students, conscripts in the army, are not included (although they are adults and they spend money). In addition, the new much-advertised trend is "semi-employment" (under the auspicies of the Greek state and the EU). But really, isn't that also "semi-unemployment"? Pure logic...

As a response to all the other things I have read, I want to say that if the Greek Church is to be blamed for anything, she should be the last to be. For the recent Vatopedi scandal (which I suppose both Xenos2008 and Michael X the White had in mind) the Greek Church is not involved. Simply: Vatopedi is in Mount Athos. Holy Mountain's spiritual leader is the Ecumenical Patriarch, not the Archbishop of Athens. Bartholomew I cannot interfear for a variety of reasons, and if he would, it would be in a spiritual way. Holy Mountain's political head is the Minister of Foreign Affairs. Frankly, I have not seen her do anything... Again, we get back to politicians, since they are involved in all. They have the power to change things, but they are unwilling or incapable to. Hectorian (talk) 00:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Hectorian, I am in agreement with all of this, really (I am fairly old, BTW: the baby boomer generation). My comments on the role of the Church are only partly because of Vatopedi: they are more related to the failed potential of the Church in a long-term perspective to aid the socio-economic development of Greece. I understand the "romantic view" that many Greeks have of the role of the Church in Greek history, and perhaps I should not comment as I am not a member of that Church, but my view is that it has really not done much at all for the Greek people. Anyway, that is not so relevant for this article. They are not to blame for these riots.

The continuous failure of the Greek state to keep its personnel under control, and in accordance with Greek law, is a disaster. It has been noted in official reports to the EU and international organisations in an increasingly critical way over the last 8 years or so. You are quite right to say that in almost any other EU(15) country, police are severely punished for criminal behaviour when on duty. There have been many incidents in recent years where the Greek police and the border guard have killed immigrants, raped Roma, amongst other less serious offences. Their punishments have been minimal or zero. Most Greeks are not even aware of these incidents, and there has certainly not been an uproar. It took the killing of a middle class Greek kid for people to pay attention.

If I were to tell Karamanlis to do anything, and I have no hopes that he will do much of anything in his life, it would be to bring meritocracy and professionalism to the state services. Of course, that requires strong leadership and dealing with all the mafia and losers in his party: not much hope that he can be bothered to try. Anyway, this is a bit off-topic, so I'll desist ! Xenos2008 (talk) 02:48, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll mainly comment on Hectorian's two first points ( I do not really disagree with the rest). Even if the Greek state was very good (which I believe impossible to happen because we just like to "eat of it", or rather eat it off), Greeks would still demonstrate/protest/riot for several reasons. The first would be that the state could be better. The second could be personal conditions of some. The third one I can easily think now is just some protesting/rioting because they are not in power. But I can see your point and it is fair enough.

Germany and Britain would also have made massive arrests and would have stopped this when it begun. In Greece there is too much tolerance. (Anyway, I hate the constant comparison with those countries.)

Also, note that the war in Iraq is largely a responsibility of a Greek man...

I don't know so much on unemployement so I cannot comment on that. I also want to add that the economy mostly deriorated between '80-2000 (A.Papandreou's first act as Prime Minister was I think tripling all teachers' salaries). A very bad thing was also the uncontrolled transition to the Euro (prices doubled and tripled). And another thing (about island holidays). I think that when one does not have money enough to go to an island there is not the need to do so. Each one must measure what they can do acoording to the resources they have. Otherwise everyone ends up in debt.

Now, as a response to Xeno, I find it very natural not being able to understand the Church's contribution. And that is that the Orthodox church has not (with very few exceptions, mostly positive however) tried to be as active in politics as the Western heterodox Churches, who tried to have gains for themselves and acted as a pretty foreign body to the state and the people. The Orthodox church is in great part responsible for the present independence of both the Hellenic and the Cypriot Republic. Makarios is the most recent example I think. Other bishops have spilled blood for Greece (Gregory V, Chrysostomos of Smyrna, etc.)

Concerning your second paragraph, I think the reason for most problems is "μονιμότητα". Those who work for the Greek state cannot be fired.

I won't comment on the last paragraph although I am compelled to. I'll just say that even if we Greeks have already in this talk page heavily criticised all of the politicians of our country, such extreme statements better be avoided.--Michael X the White (talk) 20:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

i would like someone to explain this:

• 1) Greeks work 42.5 to 41 hours a week that puts them in the top spots of the EU (http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=714773&lngDtrID=244)
• 2) Greeks get paid 60 to 70 % of the average pay in the EU (http://www.enet.gr/online/online_text/c=112,dt=25.11.2007,id=88776408)
• 3) Despite that greece has one of the slowest growing labour cost in the EU(http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/PGP_PRD_CAT_PREREL/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2008/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2008_MONTH_12/3-12122008-EN-AP.PDF)
• 4) And the unemployment rate is comperable to that of Esthonia (a country that got it's freedom in 1991) (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/pls/portal/docs/PAGE/PGP_PRD_CAT_PREREL/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2008/PGE_CAT_PREREL_YEAR_2008_MONTH_11/3-28112008-EN-BP.PDF)

because i honestly can't explain it without blaiming the politicians...

I also want to say this: i am not a leftist, nor a social democrat nor a supporter of other left wing parties but i still think that a lot of people in this talk page are leting their political opinions (market liberalism) to cloud their judgement. It is very hard for people with any ammount of knowledge in economics to accept positions like this: "we (Greeks) are not working efficiently" enough. Which is completely contradicted by the evidence above.

In any case i would advise people to search for independent analysis in the internet and add it to the Background and causes section instead of trying to analyse data by ourselves.

P.S.i try to support my edits with sources it would be nice if others did it as well especially in finacial analysis sections --Der Blaue Reiter (talk) 20:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Der Blaue Reiter: forgive me for not citing others, but the standard of analysis of the Greek labour market is very poor. There is no simple explanation for the above data, but I will try to mprovide an explanatory framework. (1) Greek employers emphasise hours present, instead of actual work achieved. I suppose this is partly historical (former multiple job-holding, typical of underdeveloped economies), partly realistic when many workers actually need a second or third job to survive, and partly because it is easier to enforce. The result is that the number of hours cannot be directly compared with most other EU countries. (2) Pay rates: this is more complex. First, the history of Greek pay is that it has been low because of the structure of the economy -- that is, low-productivity agriculture, small businesses, state sector. This is stil lthe case for small businesses, which make low profits; it should not be the case for larger commercial outfits, which are simply underpaying the cheat their workforce. It should not be the case for the state, which underpays and undertrains its normal workforce, and pays large salaries to its political friends in the state sector. So, this is a mix of economic reality, exploitation and corruption. (3) Labour costs have been kept down by immigration, especially the use of illegal foreign labour. The Greek state has been quite happy with this arrangement, as everything in Greece is illegal anyway. (4) THe unemployment rate is much higher than recorded, and has been terrible for decades. In particular, the unemployment rate of university graduates, and especially female graduates, is a scandal -- as in all of southern Europe. The reasons lie in the emphasis of employers on low-skill low-wage employment (although they really need skills to develop their businesses), the role of nepotism and connections in gaining employment which results in mismatch of skilled work with less skilled workers; and to some extent the serious lack of inflows of capital investment in GReece (owing to a poor business environment). IN all of these cases, the state has failed to pass intelligent laws, to enforce existing laws, to manage the economy properly, to create an environment that makes companies want to locate their businesses in Greece. It is an extreme example of government failure, and none of the political parties has any plans to remedy the situation, including the current government. Laziness and incompetence rule supreme.Xenos2008 (talk) 22:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

ok, Firstly we cannot accept in good faith that there are employers who don't want their employees to work efficiently. Secondly Pay rates --> "a mix of economic reality, exploitation and corruption." but this is already in the article's section we talk about so there is no problem with that (according to you at least)... Thirdly Greece is not the only country to have considerable ammount of illegal immigrants (i.e. Spain, Italy) yet the labour cost cannot be compared with these countries (more than double). Fourthly --> "THe unemployment rate is much higher than recorded, and has been terrible for decades. In particular, the unemployment rate of university graduates, and especially female graduates, is a scandal" this is also in the section we're tyalking about and yet another point we agree on.--Der Blaue Reiter (talk) 22:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

YOu mispresent what I wrote. I did not say that employers do not want efficiency, I stated that they are more concerned with the number of hours worked. I know this also from my own and others' experiences, that if an employee suggests a typical workload that he/she can complete before the working day is over, the employer is not interested. This applies equally to time taken and salary paid. In other words, employers do not show any interest in increasing productivity levels, and employees do not provide it (obviously). Concerning labour costs: the table you link to gives only % increases, not absolute levels, and I don't recall the current comparative labour costs across the EU. However, according to this table, Greek labour costs grew very slowly in 2007 (as they did in the late1990s) but the rate of increase quadrupled in 2008. Looking across sectors, we see from another table there that these massive increases are in NACE industry Sectors (C--E) and services (G--K), while in construction Greece is the only EU country with massive wage deflation over the period. These data suggest serious fluctuations and structural changes in the labour market over the last 2 years. Thirdly, the impact of irregular immigrants and employment on the Greek labour market is proportionally much greater than in Italy, and only recently has Spain been comparable. There is no other country in the EU, except Cyprus, where the labour market impact is so great. More important than the total number anyway is the sectoral impact: the construction sector is something like 70-80% immigrants, so the wage deflation implies an oversupply of irregular migrants in that area. In the other more regulated sectors, I cannot offer a proper explanation for the recent wage inflation: probably GSEE can tell you, if you ask the research division. However, we really need to examine real labour costs -- al of these Eurostat tables are highly misleading without the context. Xenos2008 (talk) 23:19, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

you said that "Greek employers emphasise hours present, instead of actual work achieved." work efficiency is connected exactly with that (work, hours, salary). So it wasn't a misinterpretation i guess it was an "oversimplifycation" but you understand what i'm saying... greek workers don't have some kind of disease reducing their efficiency nor do greek employers try do decrease it. Concerning labour costs i put in the table to show exactly that (the pecentages show how labour cost changes compared to previous years). On the rest i can agree completely for example the massive wage deflation in construction does suggest frustation in the labour market, and this is where i'm getting at the politicians have a portion responcibility over this unrest they should have forseen the economic dangers of all they did over the past 8 to 10 years to say the least. Don't kid yourself this situation was created due to financial concerns soon to become certainties. It doesn't have to do so much with the attitude or the psyche of the greek worker the greek rioter or whatever, but rather by the fact that a large part of the popullation has over the past years lost substantial ammounts of many due to inflation (which by the way is not correctly calculated by the Greek Ministry of Finance according to several professors at my uni), and due to the shrinking of the Greek economy presisely because the Greek state has stopped investing in the field of Construction engineering, this of course was not done by choice but rather due to the fact that the we are running out of EU support money.--Der Blaue Reiter (talk) 23:50, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

We agree, my friend. Basically, these are all structural problems that have not been addressed by politicians. Furthermore, one new problem -- the declining wage-price ratio -- has been created by the Simitis government (I mention it above, in the middle of rather long discussions) and worsened by ND. The political priority of Eurozone membership was put before economic success, and price inflation measurements rigged to get there. You have only to look at OECD measurements of wholesale price inflation (which are normally guaranteed to translate, with lag, into consumer price inflation) to see that the retail price indices since about 1998 have been faked. The decade of anuually reduced real wages, in a country where wages were already low, has been a disaster for most Greek people, yet no government has ever admitted to participating in this attack on family incomes. And, to my knowledge, it is never mentioned on tv or in mainstream newspapers... {Xenos2008}87.202.104.29 (talk) 01:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Dear Hectorian thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. You make valid points but still you only convince even more about Kalyvas' theory.

• "Most countries have continuous histories of demonstrations against the state." That is true, but with some key differences. Take example France, the latest riots were from immigrants which is an external source. The French students protests (internal source) never (correct me if i am wrong) turned into mass violence. In other countries the people who protest are either poor demanding more jobs/money or middle class demanding more civil rights. Let's see Greece for a moment... in Greece the violent riots (not protests) were mainly from students from all social classes. By comparing the Greek and French student you have to scratch your head why the Greek students act like the immigrants in France. Are they pressured by the society that much? (see also below) Don't they have rights? In terms of individual rights Greece comes second in the world (http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-559597). In terms of wealth Greece is considered a developed country! And yes I have been in eastern European countries recently to know the situation from first hand. So you have to ask why the Greek youth acts like that when so many others are in worse situation. I am sorry I cannot explain it with social argumentation alone, i need to look to the cultural as well.
• "why should you vote? they will be elected anyway!" That's because we allow them to be the only options! We either vote them or we do not vote at all... change does not come from pessimism or inaction/ignorance but with initiative (and I do not mean violence). Initiative can take the form of many things i.e. organize debates, vote smaller parties, participate in the political scene (local or national), raise awareness etc etc There are sooo many other ways and yet I only see them in abroad not in Greece. It is too early but have a look how the underdog Obama using grass-root strategies managed to change the face of Washington! Unless we participate unless we change attitude we cannot hope.
• Shouldn't there be any state control on the EU money? There should be. I agree with you. But now it is too late... isn't it...
• "And I am not talking about mobile phones and iPods. I am simply talking about food..." & "The Greeks have every right to go on their islands, drink as hell" Then if it is so expensive and the Greek family struggles to fill its table with food and cover its basic needs then why the Greeks spend money on ipod, mobile phones, vacations in islands, expensive cars etc etc. And please do not tell me they need to be up-to-date, because they can keep a mobile for more than three months and still be more than functional, Myconos and Rhodes or Santorini are great but you do not have to go there every summer etc etc Yes, i agree the Greeks have every the right to spend money, but to spend money on things he or she can afford to. I know too many stories where the only "child" of a typical middle class family is e.g. 25, never worked before, still attending university for the basic degree and yet demands from his/her family to get money for mobile phone, ipod, vacations to islands and money every week to go for clubbing and to cafes! The same youth that throws rocks to policemen! Does this sounds normal? Not to me... sorry. We have developed an attitude that to be cool you must not work (or at least do minimum work), play black gammon (next to it place the most fashionable mobile phone and the keys of a fashionable car), drink frape (cold coffee), on one hand have the cigarette and on the other the dices, and with your eyes stare the waitress even though your girlfriend is right next to you (the girls to be cool must have cool boyfriends and be in fashion). This is what the youth aspire to be. It is not the intelligence, honesty or hard work but good life with no work. Those who work we pity them! The Greeks struggle economically, not only of the social-economic problems that does exist but also for the cultural behavior we developed!
• "A.Cython, did you attend a Greek school in Greece?" Yes, I did, a public school in fact. I agree that the situation is bad. But the conditions of the books or the lack of computers could be worse, but that's not what worries me most. All and when i say all from the best to the worst student in the school I attended (not just the class, the whole school) had tutors or attending frodistirio for all of the years in Luceum. I was the only exception, not because of financial problems but me and my family refused to submit to this fashion/trend. And here is the big surprise: I was treated like an alien, a weirdo by both the students and the teachers for refusing follow the trend. Do not forget that most teachers are also tutors thus seeing me refusing to be their client they felt threatened and thus treat me as an outsider (Τι μας μαγκιά μας πουλάει ο μικρός) while my fellow students were suspicious of me (Μας κάνει τον έξυπνο αυτός?). If the teachers had a difficult problem I was a potential target to show to other students why they need a tutor. Thankfully, I managed to solve every problem on the blackboard. However, now I know from my sisters at school that teachers even attempted aggressively to persuade my sisters (btw top grades) that their parents ruin theirs lives by not sending to frontistirio or having tutors! Is this normal behavior by the teachers? In addition I will give you two more incidents that shows a problematic cultural behavior:

(1) There was an Internet competition among Greek schools to design a web-pages about an astrophysics topic. I wanted to participate, but no other student or teacher was interested because they were too busy for the preparations for the entry exams into the university. That was in the first year in Luceum, 2.5 years before the exams! How is it possible to be too busy for exams two and half years before! Anyway... I designed the web-pages and asked two friends of mine to use their name in order to look the work as product of team work. It was supposed to be 6-8 students and 1-2 teachers! I did not win in the competition but I received a telephone call from the organizer to congratulate me for the work done. So I ask where is the desire to learn in school of more than 500 students and 20-30 teachers? Are exams the only thing in the world!?

(2) The mathematician at the last year in Luceum (half a year before the exams) gave us a very hard problem to solve as homework. The best students in class, who had tutors managed to solve the problem according to the methodology of the book which was about 4 pages. I wasn't the best student but because I had more free time (no tutors and no frontistirio) and I enjoyed mathematics I knew some more advanced mathematics and I solved the problem with half a page. I do not say this out of arrogance but because when I showed my solution to the teacher, he had a very quick glance and throw the piece of paper in my face saying "Honesty among liers" (Ειληκρίνια μεταξύ κατεργαρέων) in front of all students of the class! And none of my students or friends were at least curious for my solution since it was not necessary for them to know these things for the university entry exams. It was only after my parents went to school for him to apologize to me.

So since when we view the schools as centers of preparation for exams instead of centers of learning. Is it the fact that we don't have money, or the state does not have the means to do it? Don't we have smart people to solve difficult problems? We have both the money and the means and the brains to solve the problem in education! But instead we feed the problem by paying the tutors and the tutors take the money (no receipt == black money), and the students who are scared by us/media/parents are willing to sacrifice their free time for extra hours of tutoring. In addition the students demand for their highly priced sacrifice from their parents expensive gadgets, vacations etc etc... So the Greek family enters into a loophole of spending more money than it should be in the first place. We all feed the bloody problem. To deal with a problem one has as Xenos2008 said above "it is necessary to critically evaluate and make proposals for improvement". But what's scares me most is how do you identify and evaluate a problem when the problem is the normal behavior? It is not a social problem anymore, it has become a cultural problem! How can you ask from a mother not spend money on education for her child, especially when everybody does that? She will even borrow money for her child see a better future. Her fear and obsession to see her child in a better place feeds the problem that undermines the child's future! What makes things worse is that every mother has the same obsessions, all them have excessive expectation for their child e.g. lawyer or doctor. While on the other hand the young student, highly pressured during the three-four years preparing for the examinations, once entering into the university get a cultural shock because now has complete freedom... no more tutors no more school, no more compulsory attendance etc etc and it takes one or two years for the Greek student to start studying for the university! Yes that's right one or two years of doing nothing! It is considered a great achievement if you finish your degree in "x + 1" years (where x is years needed for graduate). Since when we consider a great achievement to finish in "x + 1" years? I know that we are arrogant enough to shout that our students our the smartest in Europe, but what I see when I compare the Greek students with students of other counties is even though we are highly skilled in problem solving, we lack the concept of team-work, we lack the skills of professionalism, being open minded... etc etc all these money go wasted...

• "... the Greek state is corrupted and ineffective." Xenos2008 said this above, and I wanted to add: yes the Greek state is corrupted and ineffective, but not because the state officials or the politicians are corrupted, we are all corrupted. It is exact the same cultural behavior that feeds the educational problem! We go to the state official to bribe them and they take it. Remember that the state officials or politicians are Greeks as well, they have families and children to feed and educate. They grow up and learn to act and behave in the same society as we do. We all must change attitude, way of thinking or even way of life. This is not a social problem where by changing the law or the constitution or equipping the police you make problem go away. This is a cultural problem that needs to be addressed by all of us. We all need to act in order to see a change. Hectorian said that only a fraction of the population votes, then why rest remain in apathy and do not form a new party and vote for that party? Why the fraction that votes does votes the same people that do not fix the problem? Yes politics is a "family business" but the politicians are not the only members in the family, the voters are in as well! Please tell me how many Greeks said that they aspire a low position in the state sector (because it is permanent with a guaranteed salary)(μια θεσούλα στο δημόσιο) and how many of those Greeks that do obtain such a position had actually a connection (politician or state official) to help them get it. All Greeks from all social classes behave like that, from the poor to the rich ones. We all feed the problem in our own way. It is this behavior maintains a weak and corrupt government unable to act.
• "It is very hard for people with any amount of knowledge in economics to accept positions like this: "we (Greeks) are not working efficiently" enough. Which is completely contradicted by the evidence above." Well then can you explain with your evidence that even though we work so many hours we are not productive enough? Ireland achieved higher growth rates and yet its people did not had to work that hard. And note I did not say that we do not work hard enough I said we do not work efficiently! Our efforts for several and different reasons go wasted. Also, you make wrong comparison with unemployment when you compare Greece with Estonia, because it is meaningless. For example Germany has 7.3% [21] and Greece has lower 6.6% [22]... does that mean Greece has better economy than Germany? Does that mean the German youth should head to streets of Berlin and burn everything? And please do not blame the politicians it such a cliche because we placed them with our actions or inactions! Der Blaue Reiter you may want to be proud that we spend so many hours of work... but at the end of the day you have to ask where all these hours of work go? Have they solved the educational problems or the health problem? Has our national infrastructure greatly improved? Also, where in above my statements I have my "market liberalism" agenda? I am not talking about economics or ideologies, I am talking cultural behavior! I am talking that we pressure our children with our ultra high expectations while at the same we spoil them to reach our expectations. I am talking about the parent wanting his/her child to find a job and he/she will find a politician and asks for a favor. I am talking for the youth that lost 3-4 years for preparing for exams, being spoiled by not knowing what work means and aspiring good life, seeing the corruption around him/her, not knowing how to change things, will end up only blaming others (the system) and throws rocks. I am talking the troubled youth that throws rocks now (or at least sympathizes the such acts) and few years from now will become a state official or even a politician accepting briberies because he/she learned by example. You will be considered stupid not brave to refuse bribery. Ideologies have failed decades ago. What we need to start doing is to change lifestyle, change our ultra high expectations for our children i.e. what's wrong being a plummer (not everyone can be a doctor or lawyer), start to value honesty and hard work instead excessive good life. I am sorry I do not have the numbers to support the cultural observations I only try to understand what Stathis Kalyvas a scholar in the field violance said here [23]... I do not try to interpret the economy numbers as you did (i.e. reaching the conclusion that it is politicians fault) yes the economy is bad but at the moment everywhere is bad that's not an excuse to act by burning the center of a capital! But if you are in Greece and have your eyes open i think it is difficult not to see what i write...

Apologies for this long reply... WP is not a forum but I hope those who read it even though it is mostly a personal opinion they might get deeper insights of the modern Greek society. Enjoy life! A.Cython (talk) 02:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

A. Cython Yes you're right this is not a forum so i will be brief. Fistly modern Greek society is much more divesified than the society you have experienced, by the comments above i understand that you let your personal experiences cloud your judgement (and for the record you're not the only one who felt alienated at school). Secondly the statistics you refferenced are outdated to say the least. thirdly in order to answer your question about not producing enough and all that i would have to get into an extensive analysis on Management/Microeconomics which i'm not really quallified to do and frankly to tired to do. Now i would advise you to read a little bit about Finance and then try to judge how a whole economy works. I' m sorry if you feel this is insulting but i expect you to assume "good faith", but please don't write such an extensive analysis based on concepts that you don't understand. And i promise i'm not going to come try and lecture you on history or chess.

Also i maintain my position that the background section is good enough as it is but we need to find some independent analysis from the major financial newspapers or elsewhere in the net. Enjoy yourlife i'm to busy trying to survive mine!--Der Blaue Reiter (talk) 20:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I will also assume "good faith" when you say "don't write such an extensive analysis based on concepts that you don't understand." Unfortunately, these experiences are not the only ones and that's why I studied in abroad and I continue to be in abroad and I plan to stay in abroad for decades to come because of the cultural (not economic) problems in Greece. And I am not the only one who feels that way; I know several brilliant Greek researchers working in prestigious universities in abroad and they do not want to go back to Greece for the same cultural problems I stated above. Are they blind and ignorant as well? But I will advise you stop reading pure numbers and blaming the numbers on politicians. Statistics and numbers (because that's what economics and finance are) are the art of lying as Bismark said. Do not get me wrong, what i want to say is that numbers can have multiple and sometimes misleading meanings. And it is no strange thing when you see the Nobel price of economics going to economists who read physics or mathematics for inspiration instead of finance e.g. Paul Krugman teaches economics to his students at Princeton but he is essentially teaching physics (look at his lectures notes in the book titled "The self-similar economy"). And note that the economic theories change faster and more drastically than you know. For example, just look how much the proposal of the mathematician Benoit Mandelbrot in 1963 suggesting that the fluctuations of cotton prices (and more generally the financial markets) follow the Lévy instead of the Gaussian distribution, affected the economic theories; they had to rewrite all the economy and finance books. It is a pity because the Black-Scholes formula (Nobel price in 1997) produces nonsensical results since it is based on Gaussian fluctuations. Unfortunately, I doubt this is the place to tell you the significance of statistical mechanics, fractal theory, and random walks in economy... so.. maybe you read "outdated" books or misinterpret your numbers. The riots cannot be explained with social argumentation alone, economy is everywhere bad, that's no excuse to behave like that. Also, I am not the only one saying that:

But economics alone doesn't explain the restlessness in universities and high schools. Students, after all, have no jobs to lose.

Experts speak of another worry, which is the seemingly anachronistic resurgence of vague radical movements, loosely called anarchist, which hark back to the destructive ideology of Mikhail Bakunin, the 19th-century Russian revolutionary, and to the rebellious rhetoric of the 1960s and 1970s.[24]

Even though you avoid to answer my questions as being to tiresome for you, I only beg you to answer the following question: Is Stathis Kalyvas' theory (see here [25] in case you do not know) qualified to be inserted in the background section? A plain yes or no will suffice. PS: and next time do not insult people who ask questions or at least try to understand something. They ask questions only because they know that they do not know and hope to find an answer in others who pretend to know but they do not know. A.Cython (talk) 23:09, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh one last thing I do not feel "insulted" or angry by the Greek society on the contrary I do enjoy life by working hard and constatly be curius about everything around me. I only feel sad for those who cannot escape and endure Greece's problems!A.Cython (talk) 23:34, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

To answer your question directly, on the merits of the Kalyvas theory, there is a central premise that I dispute and a conclusion that I do not understand fully. The premise is that Greece has suffered no more than other EU countries over recent years. One of the main points in my discussion above with Der Blaue Reiter is that real wages in Greece have dropped continuously since 2000; no other EU country has suffered this and (despite the frappe and alcohol drinking of students).the evidence is here that families have suffered over the last 8 years. Furthermore, the real extent of unemployment and underemployment is concealed and set to worsen with the global recession. People living in Greece understand these things inituitively, but it takes economic analysis to explain them more theoretically. In particular, you should note that these claims are NOT verified by published statistics: the manipulation of economic and social data by the political elite is a scandal. So, the task of professional economists in Greece is to a great extent to explain how the Greek state falsifies the data, and try to offer a more accurate picture than the fakeries put forward as official data.

The concluding point that I do not understand is the comment that radical change is needed at the very top. I do not see this as following logically from the arguments put forward, and I am not sure what Stathis is thinking of here. Actually, I do concur that radical change is needed in (a) the top personnel of political parties; (b) the structure and financing of political parties; (c) the political/electoral system which is more or less unaccountable to the public other than in brief election periods; (d) the dismal failure of the current government to properly investigate the massive corruption and embezzlements carried out under PASOK governments, as well as now under the current administration; (e) the very poor management and training of police and other state bodies; (f) et cetera. However, these are (I think) the sort of demands being made by the rioters. I did not interpret the article as supporting the rioters' position, at least in its critical stance about a culture of anarchism. Yet, its conclusion is ambiguous, and I may have misinterpreted it. To my mind, it suggests that the rioting is appropriate, as what other mechanism would force Greek politicians to undertake major changes and accept constraints on their corrupt and incompetent behaviour?

So, as a theory it is rather narrow in its empirical base and internally not very consistent. Besides, I do not expect a simple theory to be able to explain a complex culture such as the Greek one. I am not opposed to its being mentioned in the text, but a highly qualified mention would be the limit. Xenos2008 (talk) 03:27, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Your (Xenos2008) proposals sound great! May I vote for you? Honestly!

However, I have some difficulty to fully accept what you say... If what you say it is true that is mainly the riots are a reaction to the economic problems and political scandals then i fail to explain why similar riots (of smaller degree) were occuring more than 8 years ago when the actual salaries were not going down (a simple google search gave the following riots/violent protests 1985 where another student died, 1995 you can hear again the classic motto Cops, pigs, murders). I fail to explain why the motto "Μπάτσοι, γουρούνια, δολοφόνοι"(Cops, pigs, murders) coming from early 1970s survived after the fall of hunta all through the 80s, 90s and we still see it today. I fail to understand why the today's journalists kids or students of 1974 are almost sympathetic towards to rioters even when vandalism anything they find in front of them the journalist says "for the old to remember and the young to awaken"... the "young awaken" about 1974 and then act by example i guess like in 1985, 1995 and today... yeah right (do see the similarity in the videos of different eras?)! I fail to explain why when I was in school all students mistrusted or even were disgusted the police and politicians irrespectively of what they have done ([26] listen to a typical Greek hip-hop song that my friends in school grew up... part of the lyrics is "The cops and politicians f@£*s you"). I fail to understand why all governments after hunta never tried to create a strong government and approprietly restore police's image to the people. I fail to explain why every single government after hunta had at least one major political scandal and yet somehow only now it is used as an excuse to burn the capital down (or was it always an excuse to burn down anything). I fail to explain why in France even though the French are mad about the unorthodox tactics of their president and the recession they face still they do not burn down Paris or similarly why the British living in the police state and hugely disappointed by the wars on terror do not burn London. I fail to explain why everyone is against bribery and yet we take it... you must see this video 1995 again at some point a mother shouts that his son will be killed by the police! Her son broke the law and her fear and obsession of losing him brought her outside the police station shouting as if the police was about to execute her son... Policemen are no angels but even if you make them the people will still be suspicious or even hate them, see this [27] where it shows police wrong doing but focus on the hatred embodied in the comments of the video (one writes "one should kill a cop for us to build a statue in Syntagma"... there other worse comments... I hope you do not know Greek to read them)... All these are cultural not economic observations... On the contrary I think Kalyvas theory is not narrow instead it acts as a catalyst binding all sort of different problems cultural, economic, political etc etc

I am sure we can continue indefinetely this discussion but let's keep it short. I do not know what "highly qualified mention" means but i guess if we write 3-4 lines about Kalyvas' theory as an alternative perspective in addition of what is already written i.e. bad economy and political scandals, which are valid points, then i think it would be ok.A.Cython (talk) 06:48, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, I don't mean that his ideas are in conflict with mine, or are alternative. I just mean that "cultural context" is an insufficient explanatory variable; it is, however, one of the explanatory factors. In other words, if Greeks behaved like middle class English, there would have been no riots. I am less certain that the French would not riot given similar socio-economic conditions to the Greek case. Anyway, the term "narrow" as I applied it to Kalyvas' analysis simply means that (in my view) he doesn't include all the essential factors needed to explain what has happened. I suppose that you (and maybe Kalyvas) support the inclusion of the article in the category "History of Anarchism". I am not entirely convinced, but am open to persuasion on the extent of anarchist involvement in these events. Xenos2008 (talk) 13:37, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that the "cultural context" alone is an insufficient explanatory variable. That's way I used the word catalyst. A catalyst does not do anything alone, but if inserted in a chemical reaction it will accelerate the reaction or even enhance the efficiency. In other words with that "cultural context" and a great economy we would not see these riots. The overall economic situation and the political scandals (Vatopedi and Siemens are the most recent in my mind) and the corruption create a reaction i.e. create a negative atmosphere, Greeks are pessimistic and frustrated. But then again they are not enough to explain in the riots we see students and not the people that actually affected by the economy? It does not explain why youth of 16-22 (or even younger) cause so much damage and the government is reluctant to act. But if you insert the catalyst in the reaction then boom! The youth use as an excuse the political and economical situation to justify its acts (they feel equally justified as the students of 1974). The government is reluctant to act because all the Greeks are unhappy with their government, and also the government wants with its inaction to minimize the link with 1974 and so the Greeks see these riots in a sympathetic way (even though it is self-destruct).

I do not know if it belongs to "History of Anarchism" but the way the youth is acting (evoking anarchism) they leave me no choice. It would be a very special case though. Because you only have 10 hardcore ideology people throwing rocks and then 500, who are less ideological motivated, join in for the rest of Greece to watch the results. A.Cython (talk) 15:18, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Apologies to A.Cython for the delayed reply (since his extensive comment was in response to a previous one by myself). Economics and finance are not my field, so, I'll pass the exhausting analysises I read here, and I frankly cannot quite understand.

A.Cython commented about things most of the modern Greeks have experienced, or at least are aware of. And generally I do not disagree with him. But I disagree in one thing, which I believe is fundamental in his comments: the degree of Greek people's responsibility, and the idea that the politicians are sort of "blameless".

This is not the first time, nor is Greece the first state that faces public reaction against an elected government. And if the Greeks are to be blamed altogether just because they elect their politicians, the same should apply to all western nations. An example: all Americans and British are responsible for the Iraq war and Iraqi people's misfortunes; not because they elected Bush and Blair, but because they re-elected them! So, comments like "worst predident ever" for Bush and "Bliar" (as a British newspaper had as headline in spring 2003) for Blair, should be changed into "worst american public ever" and "B(ritish)liar(s)". You either attribute to all people of all western nations full responsibility, or you blame only the politicians. This is not limited to the Greeks. This was just a hint for "voters' responsibility" worldwide.

During the more than 2 weeks of riots in Greece, I happen to watch what international media say. French media are rather sharp-minded; they have spotted most of the causes of the riots. British media are like "throwing a party" for what is going on in Greece... Maybe the way British media cover the events has some connection with the way users living in England react. Perhaps the politicians of the UK want to put some limits, in order to cover their own lack of democracy. And I will explain myself, because the UK has been much advertised as a democratic heaven: nepotism is bad for Greek politics (as BBC says), but it is also bad for any country's politics... The UK's head of state is a monarch, elected by none. the second house of the Parliament of the United Kingdom is composed of hereditary and appointed members, whose decisions affect the British public to a great extend. Open any dictionary you want... this is not democracy. It more seems like oligocracy.

Xenos2008's proposals seem fine to me to. However, I think that Greece has suffered more than other EU countries over recent years; and has suffered partly due to the EU itself. The discussion can be rather deep and it is linked with a great variety of fields. An example again: if the EU quaranteed the obvious, that is the common borders, Greece would have cut her enormous military expenses. This could be a relief for Greek people's pocket (but would harm British-American weapon-manufacturers' interests). No other EU country faces external danger nor spends so much money in defense. (As trivia: the turkish media are constantly talking about an imminent coup in Greece, cause of the riots. I do not believe that there is a plan by foes to destabilize Greece, yet I believe there are many who would take advantange of the situation...).

If we wonder why the motto "Μπάτσοι, γουρούνια, δολοφόνοι" (Cops, pigs, murders) has survived the fall of junta, we could ask ourselves "who was punished for the 7 year junta?". The answer is "no one". Apart from the generals who overthrew democracy, no one else was ever even tried, let alone convicted for his crimes. Not to mention that some of those generals have been released (on the grounds of old age, poor health, and "lawyeristic tricks" (based on "laws"!) of the kind). This was the reason that the terrorist group 17N was quite popular among the Greek public in the late '70s: because it targetted former junta torturers and american officials who were involved in the junta; people that the official Greek state had left free and unharmed.

To conclude, the riots (or uprising or rebellion or revolution or whatever) have a wide variety of reasons and a rich background. It is not only cause of the "rebelious culture" of the Greeks. This may have served as a platform to illustrate their rage; similarly, Alexandros's murder served as an "umbrella" for all the problems the Greeks face from their state. If someone wants to see the deeper reasons, I could offer some directions:

1. Impunity of the politicians and all those who have power, no matter what they do.

2. Nepotism, that makes Greece seem like a kingdom, rather than a democracy.

3. Uncountable scandals that provoke the public's reactions.

4. Bad economic situation, only partly linked to the current global one.

5. High unemployment rates among the younger generations, and especially for the university graduates.

6. Low salaries, low pensions vs high prices, high taxes.

7. Total disregard from the politicians for the Greek public. And vice-versa: total disregard from the Greek people towards its politicians, cause of the latters' incapability to deal with the major issues. And I am not talking only about the things I have already mentioned, I am talking about every field, from foreign affairs to domestic disasters.

Talking only about anarchists and placing the article into categories for anarchism is absolutely wrong. The anarchists are just a small fraction of the rioters. And of course, they are not the only ones to be blamed for the destructions that have taken place. We all saw who was breaking the banks and the police stations... These were not anarchists, but high school children. We in Greece, also recently saw who were the "others" destroying people's properties and throwing rocks (just two of the many videos [28], [29]).

Sorry for the long reply. Since last time I read many views on the topic that I wanted to comment about. Gracias for your patience. Hectorian (talk) 18:22, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Another dellayed answer to A. Cython Firstly Economics can be used to explain everything from why Lincoln decided to free the slaves to why Barbarossa did not manage to gain power over the Lombard League, from why Alexander the Great managed to conquer all of persia to why Germany lost World War 2. The basic reason why social, ideological and other movements and organisations have succeded throughout history can be explained through the use of economics (at least partially). This actually is a theory that is widely accepted in economic cycles.

The fact remains though that you continue to pile on the discussion until someone accepts the addition of a part of the theory of some scientist that happens to work at yale university. i will only answer this to you: Così è (se vi pare) a play by the existensialist Luigi Pirandello. And with that i conclude my contribution to this discussion thread since i don't wish to expand it until it reaches biblical proportions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Der Blaue Reiter (talk • contribs) 20:54, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

My answer to A. Cython was indeed delayed (but for reasons A. Cython already knows for sure, irrespectively if Der Blaue Reiter knows about it or not). I do not know what economic circles know and accept or not, but whatever it may be, it will always be partially... Economics may explain a lot, but not all.

I am glad you mentioned Luigi Pirandello, cause his murder has been linked in Italy in a similar way to murders that have taken place in other states (under police orders or cover-ups), and are linked with the then current governments (ask any Italian you wish about that). Myself, I am not keen on accepting shallow solutions and empty answers (with promising explanations). Instead I expect solid responses to my very clear arguments. If such responses are not presented, I have every right to regard any other answer as "deliberately misleading"... Hectorian (talk) 01:42, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Hectorian's points but I want to add the following:

• Yes Britons and Americans are responsible for the Blair and Bush, just in the same way Greeks are responsible for their own problems. In the states lifelong republicants dared for the first time to vote a democrat canditate. They at least tried to change in numbers. What exactly Greeks do to solve their (old) problems? We take the back seat and watch the politicians... or sometimes we change channel and watch football or american idol etc etc
• Nepotism, is a natural consequence in any representative democracy when apathy of the voters is observed. but it is interesting in the Greek case is that those who vote (a significant fraction) have personal gains if the government changes or stays.
• Even when hunta was fallen (even though noone punished, except the generals)... should the Greek people make their new republic actually work? Should not the students of that era stop hating the police and start building the new republic... instead they continued to interact badly with them. Shouldn't at least the Greeks try not to offer briberies to politicians for our son or daughter find a job in the public sector? Why the youth of today feels that faces a new type of hunta (= a corrupt and nepotistic system with a bad economy)? Is it not that the parents of today (the students of 1974) created this new type of hunta that their children "battle"?
• Hectorian's seven points descibe well the current social-economic situation. But fails to explain why we not see students protesting before 1974 in such violent ways? Why the workers, the actual (and not potential as the students are) victims of this bad economy do not throw rocks as well? Why students throw the rocks and we watch as spectators? In Gemany if you cross an empty street as a pedestrian with red lights the Germans will stare you in anger.. if there are young children there i.e. you give a bad example by breaking the law, the German mothers will stare as if they want you to chop you in pieces! The German way is you break the law you must be punished even it is just crossing a small street. The Greek way (also Italian), if you break the law (without getting caught) then you are a smart guy. If the students knew that police would had an aggressive (not violent but aggressive) attitude and that the police would enter even in the universities to catch them... somehow I feel we would not see such violent events.
• Let me give three example for our dear talk how economics matter and pure numbers do not.

1)Mid 80's USA and Japan. Japan had a fast growing economy with small inflation and almost zero unemployment. The USA has small growing rate and trying desperately to reduce its unemployement (double digit in early 80s) and keep inflation under control. The american media proclaimed the end of american economy and the rise of the asian tigers. It was at that time when Japanase automakers earned a significant piece of the auto market in the US. Numbers said that Japan is devouring US but no one looked at the cultural context. Japanese conducted and conduct business like in previous centuries, if you are not friend of the family then it is unlikely to do business. On the other hand americans will choose people that will offer most profitable business irrespectively if you are friend of the family or not. Japanese also work ridiculus large amount of hours compared to Americans, they work so much that do have time to do the basic socialization (a extra reason why they rely on technology so much on meeting new people). What happened? Japan's banking system crushed due to huge pyramid-like cases and highly corrupt (family-business) scandals, the unemplyment rocketed to 5% within a very short period of time. The political cost was huge and even now parties struggle to stay in power 4 full years before a political scandal throws them down, the educational system is becoming obsolete and they have problems with the increasing average age of workforce. Now the highly skilled workers work more than 8 hours a day (only recently it was lowered from 12hours to 8hours a day) and still have problems of productivity. The US on the other hand managed to reduce its unemployment to something like 6-5% and in the 90s achieved high growth rates. How? Because economics teaches us that if you try to reduce unemployment you create jobs and thus the economy grows but at the same time inflations rises and vice versa (reduce inflation unemployment goes up). You cannot escape from that. The US reduced its unemployment without inflation rising up by techically supressing the growth of their economy as low as possible by heavily taxing the middle class and other tricks. This is considered the achievment of the Reagan years (this is explained in more details in the book "The age of diminished expectations" by Paul Krugman 2008 Nobel prise in economics). In a similar way by the Greek standards that's what Simitis did: reduce the inflation (in mid 90 it was double digit.. i think it was 12%) without unemployment go higher than what already was. And yet Reagan is admired by the americans and Simitis is seen as a failure by the Greeks (and maybe he was in other fields like healthcare and education) but what is amazing we consider him a failure in the economy as well where at least he did made something significant. Economy matters, what it does not matters are pure numbers. No economist knows what is the optimum number for inflation (or unemployment) in an economy, some say 0%, others 1%, others say 3% others say 5%. Go figure.

2) Real economies are extremely complex things and noone can predict what will happen in a years. The reason I mentioned the mathematician Mandelbrot in a previous post is that the implications of his suggestion (which has been verified by many economists). The implication is that the economy constantly fluctuates up and down (like in the stock markets) but there are no limits how big these fluctuations can be! A big fluctuation upwards means economy expands but a big fluctuation downwards means recession. Yes that's right it means that a recession is something natural and there is no escape. Also, you cannot predict when it will happen. All what experts can do once economy hits a recession is to minise the damages to the economy done by the recesion. And here is The Question: if indeed more recessions are expected in the future should we sit down and find ways to minimise the damages or make things worse by throwing rocks and cause more than €1 billion of damages and scare the invenstors for to put their money in Greece? Why in Greece we have to make things worse?

3) I have a friend working in Brussels at the economic department of EU. She told me that the foreign economists struggle to understand why in Greece the numbers show that Greeks have low salaries (compared to other EU counties) and yet Greeks spend money like the Germans? The answer she told me is: black economy and that almost no-one pays in full his/her taxes. We all know that black economy exists in Greece and it is big (just think all these tutors getting €40 per hour or even more per child). We also know that not paying taxes is widespread among Greeks and Greeks do it as mentioned above because it is considered the smart thing to do. So the numbers do not necessary reflect accurately the Greek situation.

• I think Hectorian and Xenos2008 agree with me that Kalyva's theory must be inserted in the background causes section. Now we may disagree to what extend we need to focus but only time will reveal how important this is. In the meantime in the next few days I will write a small paragraph of 3-5 sentences to mention this theory avoiding to term "anarchism". Now if more sources appear at academic level supporting further this theory then (and only then) we might need to expand this.
• Finally, one more comment about anarchism... I am still sceptical if it belongs to the section of anarchism. There is a (very) small number of ideological driven people, but what makes it interesting is that they are joined by many more less ideological motivated people and cause of this damages. If the scholars in the future insist on this terminology then we add it otherwise we do nothing. A.Cython (talk) 21:39, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Anarchism removed

Why has any reference to anarchists or the history of anarchy in that part of the city been removed? --65.127.188.10 (talk) 01:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Because anarchism or any kind of anarch like word is not politically correct in Wikipedia -:)--Kalogeropoulos (talk) 02:04, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

It's ridiculous. Even mainstream media channels are making references to the strong anarchist movement in relation to the historical background of the riots. The reality is that the situation exploded from the point where there were already many clashes from anarchist groups with the police. It is not a coincidence that this event - and the police provocation that is being mentioned, for that matter - happened in Exarcheia. Maziotis (talk) 12:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree that there is a link with the anarchism movement, although it is important not to overstate the role in these popular riots. Xenos2008 (talk) 14:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

This strikes me as stemming from the common misconception that 'anarchist' is an epithet, so Kalogeropoulos probably thought it was POV insults directed at the rioters. Zazaban (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Because the riots are not "anarchists" (to say that also could be offensive for a lot of supporters of anarchy ideology, because there are not ideological targets in a riot), there are many groups, and the majority of them we don´t know which ideology they have. A lot of rioters and protesters don't act because of an ideology, but for demands. In the case of some visible organizations almost all are leftists because of their petitions (nobody has propoused the abolition of governemnt or something similar, but a better government). That's why is better to use verificable information and not militant one (the last one could idealize or overestimate the role of some actors). --200.63.232.144 (talk) 21:46, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure? All of us anarchists have jumped on board in support of the rioters, and as far as I know, quite a few of them are anarchists. Anarchism is a leftist ideology, so it follows that the protesters would be leftist. Zazaban (talk) 02:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, even mainstream media see the connection. Now, I wouldn't go so far as to say that this article should be renamed "greek anarchist revolution 2008". But to say that there isn't a connection...?! That comes from someone who obviously doesn't know the situation in Greece. Maziotis (talk) 15:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

All anarchists are not leftists, but almost all leftist are socialist or marxist. All anarchists are not pro-rioters, much of them are non-violence supporters or pacifists. About Greece, violent rioters and pacifical protesters, they dont have an ideological agenda, but demands (perhaps the ideological one could be that education belongs to the State). I think there are some partisan and not reliable sources that are seeing their (favorite) tree and not the wood, idealizing and overestimating their international "friends".--200.63.232.144 (talk) 17:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Stop trying to give me a basic lesson in my own philosophy, It's insulting. Despite what you say, there are a lot of anarchists in the riots. Zazaban (talk) 21:47, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

This article discusses some of the points raised in this section: http://www.crimethinc.com/blog/2008/12/20/greece-and-the-insurrections-to-come/ Maziotis (talk) 19:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

You continue overestimating some actors that haven't any property over these events. Think in all thousands persons that are in protests, they are not fighting for anarchy -probably they don't know what is that- but for public education demands and for governmental economic changes or rectifications, the big majority. --200.63.232.144 (talk) 19:54, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

No one here is calling this an "anarchist revolution". The fact that this is a part of the history of the anarchist movement is not mutually exclusive with other categories. You can't deny that many people, right or wrong, are commenting on the tv channels how this would not have happen if there were not anarchist groups to fuel this. You can't deny that the anarchist movement is now going trough a moment of reflection, with groups all over the world looking at this and creating events. Maziotis (talk) 20:22, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

The anarchists can't claim "May 1968 in France". Are you going to remove this category there too? Just look at some of the other items in this category. Some of them clearly scream for other categories aswell. This is how categories work. You can't deny that this is a part of Anarchist History just because it is not as in the specfic form you are describing it. Maziotis (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

So you mean, that in any big protest where there is an anarchist -that is not the center of representative demands neither bigger civil movilizations of the majority, and when even a visible minority, the rioters, haven't an uniform ideology- should be "History of anarchism" because another anarchist is the friend of the first.--200.63.232.144 (talk) 21:07, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Only if the connection is important to anarchism itself. Maziotis (talk) 01:05, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Stop arguing as if I were trying to include this in the category of "anarchist revolutions" or something. Right now, I am not even arguing for a category as "anarchist riots". But no one in his right mind can say that the anarchist movement in greece didn't play a (major) role in this event, and so, therefore, this belongs to the "history of anarchism" category.

Your points about "ideological" representation are senseless. And don't worry; no one is coming here arguing to include this in the "History of João Teixeira", even though it does. It is just not notable. Maziotis (talk) 01:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

So all protests would by "History of anarchism" because always could be a little group of anarchists that belive they are the "vanguard" of the fights of another persons that don't follows them. I believe some radical media have been trying to use these events to overestimating their little importance. Anyway, is better to erase that category in the article because the big majority of people in Greece protests it's not anarchist at all and they aren't following anarchists ideas or organizations. --200.63.232.144 (talk) 23:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, it has to be notable. I don't know from where you are getting your information, but when I mentioned mainstream news I meant the state news channel reporter from RTP1. He explained how the riots started with anarchist groups that were already operating, and clashing with the police before the death of Alexandros. Hence, the suppose provocation from the police with the group, and all the speculations that followed. Everybody is talking about anarchism and this seems to be getting the attention of anarchist organizations all over the world. Right or wrong, this is still a part of anarchist history, and anarchism is still notable enough as a social/historical category to hold this reference.

I really do see a parallel here with May 1968 in France. In that case, we also can't say that anarchism holds an ideological dominion of the event, but it is still a part of its history and it holds, quite deservingly, I believe, that category. Just because the riots in Greece are not a part of anarchist history in the particular way that you described it, doesn't mean that it doesn't belong there. That is why I am repeating the reference of May 1968, because I see a similarity with the necessary historical detachment of time passed. Maziotis (talk) 14:15, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

1. In may 68 wasn't a so deep difference between protesters sector and riots sector, but in anyway I believe the association with may 68 is not primary source -become from investigations, reliable publications, and a big "etc". 2. I think that media could also said "anarchist" to all "violents" to damage the image of certain ideas in the public opinion. We haven´t any responsible organization that affirm the affiliattion of some rioters and protesters -I belive not all or majority these street groups presents themselves like anarchists but antifascists or anticapitalists -for unity, or something similar. 3. What we only can say is that a minority, but relatively visible, of anarchist media and militants are acting and covering some of the events.--Nihilo 01 (talk) 15:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

When the media speaks about the "anarchist groups" operating before the death of Alexandros, the popular image of "anarchy" doesn’t come to question. This by itself relates to activity associated with the anarchist movement/ideology. Anarchism is not a cult thing that you have to prove yourself to by possessing certain knowledge.

From your response, regarding the sources, I take that perhaps this is a matter of waiting for them to appear in due time. This goes back to the reason this thread was opened. Perhaps we should first include references about anarchism in the article and then include this category. But I am convinced that this sources will reveal more than this being a issue of the event being merely related to "anarchism", but that that there is a prominent role being played here. Maziotis (talk) 16:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

1. We know that is not a cult thing like members of an ideology or philosophy, but is subjective -could be valid for us not for Wikipedia-, because the way to certified that is a reliable person or organization or responsible publication (non subjetive perceptions or opinions or anonymous panflets). 2. Remember that Wikipedia isn't a tribune of ideas, is more a neutral observer. Have a good day, I gotta go! --Nihilo 01 (talk) 16:45, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this certainly would be more easy if we were dealing with the category "history of organization x". But that is still no reason, under the pretext of "neutrality" or other, to censorship anarchism.

I hope you take a look at my response regarding the needed sources. My position is now that indeed we should first find references on anarchism in the article, and then categorize acordingly. Maziotis (talk) 16:58, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

The demand to remove anarchism is so great that people don't know what to do. It's funny. They have conflicting views. They don't know if they should push it aside and alienate it from the rest of the people, or if they should avoid any references altogether. The inclusion of the reference "anarchist graffiti" in the picture box was done with a justification against anarchist bias: "not everyone identifies with this. This is anarchist's work". I wouldn't be surprise if someone comes along with the exact same anti-anarchist bias, to do just the opposite: "this is not an anarchist riot. you cannot appropriate the social motivations for this." Maziotis (talk) 10:47, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Criticism of the KKE

Can anyone have a look at that section and please compare it to the other criticism sections? It should be removed because it does not talk about criticism!! The entire criticism section is about criticism by someone to someone for what they did in the riots (their stance,etc.). Can anyone see that in that Communist Party criticism section?? Now, I'm removing this again, and if anyone has any good argument to keep it please say so.--Michael X the White (talk) 09:14, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Ambiguous wording--clarification needed

"Following some exchange of verbal abuse that, according to several witnesses, was initiated by them,[citation needed] one of the guards, Epaminondas Korkoneas, fired his gun."

Who is "them"? The guards? The kids? The witnesses? [If I knew for sure, I'd fix it.] Samer (talk) 18:38, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Fixed it.--Xenovatis (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

F*** HOW MUCH WE NEED THIS PICTURE!!

You know I don't yell. Well, the picture here certainly deserves it. It should be in the center of that infobox. The least. Anyone with clever copyright ideas? NikoSilver 21:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

An AP image. Sorry, no can do. Ask them to put the banner up a second time and take a photograph yourself... Darn it, was none of our active Athenian friends there to take a pic? – Or, actually, if those demonstrators had any brains at all, they had their own friends stationed below and taking their own photographs, which will soon appear on the web. There'd be a better chance to get one under some anarchically free, non-capitalist license from them than from AP. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:54, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

lol, ergo Wikipedians are not anarcho-revolutionaries and vice versa! Anyway, it's all over the news already. See CNN, see SKAI, see IN.gr... I'm certain someone is going to find a respective one somewhere... NikoSilver 21:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I just read this now (midnight)! If I had known earlier, I would have popped off to the Akropolis to snap a pic...Xenos2008 (talk) 22:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

(Good lord what a desacration...Is there any shame??) What do we need that for? It's not supposed to be rioting...--Michael X the White (talk) 22:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

You're not a new fan of polytheism, Mike, are you? :-) NikoSilver 23:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Hahaha! No, no...!!--Michael X the White (talk) 10:34, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

THere seem to be only two pics, which are Reuters/AP. What idiots these protesters are to give them a monopoly, so that most international reporting is actually without a pic! Are these people opposed to global capitalist interests or not? Absolutely mindless... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.104.29 (talk) 23:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

There is a picture in last Friday's Athens News. Unless they paid AP for it, they will probably allow WP to use it with attribution to Athens News (which needs advertising for its new lease of life). I have the email address for the editor, if anyone wants to try. Xenos2008 (talk) 13:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

"Background"

A group of innocent youths were playing a simple game of backgammon in their humble neighborhood when blood thirsty, anti-youth police opened fire on the unsuspecting youngsters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.127.188.10 (talk) 02:32, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

LOL, not so much background as openly biased reporting without any factual basis! Xenos2008 (talk) 02:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

No no!That was actually meant to be the example of what should be avoided.--Michael X the White (talk) 10:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Second teen shot

[30] anonymous.

Yeap : airgun shoot in the hand -> he is safe. Yug (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The teenager is safe, "his life is not in danger and the bullet caused no permanent damage", as the doctors put it. Apart from that (and the many rumours circulating in Greece), there are the following facts, reproduced by all media and disputed by none so far:

1. The teen was shot from an about 300 m distance. Had the bullet hit him elsewhere, he could be dead now.

2. The bullet came from a gun, the type of which is also used by the police.

3. The police arrived at the scene 14 hours later.

4. The police asked from the teen's father not to make the shooting public. He, an active member of the communist party, revealed everything to the media.

Maybe conclusions can be drawn, yet nothing more than the above is known so far. I just stated the few facts. Hectorian (talk) 22:09, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The bullet was not a ricochet and yet it did not exit the boy's hand. But I think this event is not notable enough (yet), is it?? (All types of guns are used by the police. Each police officer chooses what he will use from all guns available.)--Michael X the White (talk) 22:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not yet sure about the notability of the event. But, I am sure you'll agree, we live in mysterious times in Greece... I had no idea which guns the police uses. About the technical characteristics, we should wait for the ballistics. But if it will take another 2 weeks (as is the case in Alexis's murder), I will begin to have more serious doubts about the police's intentions... Hectorian (talk) 22:24, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll tell you my opinion. I agree with Aleka that there are mysterious centres from outside the country that like all this rioting and love causing miscief every time they get a chance... One or two things: we have Karamanlis signing important treaties with Putin, and after he called for elections, we have the Peloponnese forest fires. Now, the Chinese premier visited Greece and signed some important treaties, and now we have all this. I'm even suspecting some political powers are backed and moved by some to increase the tension...--Michael X the White (talk) 16:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Greeks are quite anarchic and mischievous enough without having to invoke "outside forces" to explain these things. 87.202.104.29 (talk) 17:57, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

What say the student ? (greek language)

"On tuesday, youths briefly seize the state NET TV studio, to expose their claims. Source: bbc.co.uk ; Video."

BBC say that the student said 'Stop to watch, go outside', but the student seems to talk a far more than that.

• What does he say ?
• what are student claims and request ?

Yug (talk) 21:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The link you named "video" shows the occupation of the tv station SuperB, Which, if I am not wrong, is in Patras. During the seizure of state tv NET, the protesters held banners writting: "Immediate release of all those arrested" (referring to the protesters arrested by the police), "Freedom to all" and "Stop looking and everyone go out to the streets". About what the student during the occupation of SuperB says, I cannot understand clearly, because the BBC reporter's voice covers him. But for sure during the end I can hear him saying "cause of the economic crisis". Hectorian (talk) 21:57, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, interesting. If you can find or ask help on the greek wiki to find the original video (with good sound), that may provide a valuable help : a direct speech by students about the student claims. ;) Yug (talk) 22:48, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I saw the "NET seizure". But it was nicer to see Panagopoulos's open statement about it a few minutes later.--Michael X the White (talk) 22:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Poignant photos of the insurrection: latest

These photos are a must! They should visually back the article otherwise the reader might underestimate the sheer amplitude of the riots!

1 - 2 - 3 - 4

Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 22:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

• How many people you need for that, 100?--200.63.232.144 (talk) 22:14, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Don't get you really! I think you mean photos not people. Anyway, I've got the feeling that the Greek contributors try to "belittle" the whole events by deliberately going for "soft" photos so to speak... Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 22:21, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

That are partisan sources, they could idealize the rioters or overestimate the role of some actors. It' would be better to have information from third party sources (non the rioters neither government, or their respective supporters). I think that should be very clear. --200.63.232.144 (talk) 22:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, it should also be crystal clear that photos as such, by the sheer nature of their capacity to capture the reality, are a prime asset that shoud not be ignored as a precious visual back-up, otherwise we risk distorting the meaning of the events and their rendering into the wiki article. So why not have a look yourself at them and let reality speak through themselves? Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 22:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

You may feel delighted by what is happening in Greece, Margariti, but seriously do you expect to insert in the article a Xmas card saluting the world with the Athens Christmas tree in flames? Hectorian (talk) 22:31, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Hectorian! Well, I cannot say I'm entirely displeased (much as I abhor the violence or loss of human life) with the recent meltdown in Greece. But no, I'm not the Schadenfreude type if you know what I mean. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 22:48, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

They tried to burn the replacement too this afternoon but the batsoi protected it this time. But I think it's a good tongue-in-cheek Xmas greeting card, yes! see textThe new violence erupted in the central square, site of the Greek parliament, as protesters threw petrol bombs at the building and attempted to burn down Athens' main Christmas tree. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 23:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Where is the army ?

Simple question : where is she ? Yug (talk) 23:55, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

In their barracks, cleaning toilets, painting fences... this is all that the Greek army does! They will not be brought in, because that would lead to the rapid removal of any government that did so. I suppose they would get involved if Greece deteriorated into actual civil conflict; but, as Hectorian argues below, this does not seem at all likely. {Xenos2008}87.202.104.29 (talk) 01:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Yet the latest photo (taken on the streets of Athens on Thursday) are quite scary in their brutality. This is a brutal, violent, bloody conflict, there is no doubt about it. See [31] Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 01:31, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Yet, this is not enough for the intervention of the army. Shall I tell you that this is the only such a major conflict of both the 20th and 21st centuries with none, but a single, fatal casualty? After this one, people around the world will understand that for the Greeks life is sacred and a divine gift (the murder of an innocent teenager sparked the riots, but the riots claimed no lives), and that no matter how "barbarous" a Greek crowd can get, human life for the Greeks is above all... Hectorian (talk) 01:47, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

One more question : what does the hamster on this page ? O.o Yug (talk) 04:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC) (driving a suicide car ? ^-^)

This is troktiko blog, troktiko means rodent in greek. It is also called proktiko blog.--Xenovatis (talk) 09:42, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Greece is supposed to be a democracy, the army has no place in this.--Xenovatis (talk) 09:42, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

No, violent thugs have no place in a democracy. The army has every right and every reason to intervene. 84.230.75.135 (talk) 18:16, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but that seems strange to me : that's a POWERFUL player who still silently watch the game. Dangerous... Yug (talk) 13:48, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

They used to be pretty powerfull in Greek politics until about 35 years ago. I don't really see they have any chance of intervening as the new generation of officers, those that hold the highest ranks today are the products of a different educational system and society to the one that produced the coups.It is incogrous to even discuss this.--Xenovatis (talk) 19:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Education don't matter. The balance of power, and the possibilities only matter. I'm pretty sure the army already had his own meeting to calmly talk about the possibilities of actions, and non-action. And I think they may eventually make a short and decisive show to force the prime minister to leave the place for an other, and to stop all the disturbances.

Yug (talk) 20:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

By "education", Xenovatis really means political culture. Greece made the permanent transition to democracy in 1974, and it is almost inconceivable that the military would re-enter poltics, any more than they would in France or the UK, or USA. It is also almost impossible to imagine the army being used by the civilian government (which happens in France, UK and USA in times of crisis). THis is because the transition to democracy was too recent for the population to accept such a role, unless it is a clear national emergency. I doubt that this will happen with these riots. 87.202.104.29 (talk) 23:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Well put. How about getting an account btw?--Xenovatis (talk) 11:00, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry: that was me (forgot to sign in). Xenos2008 (talk) 12:35, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Cool! Wellcome to WP!--Xenovatis (talk) 13:05, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Riots, insurrection or Civil War?

The very title of the article, much as is the best compromise out of many variants, is nevertheles ambiguous. It should be noted that a certain segment of the "rioters" themsleves would prefer to call what you call "riots", Civil war. I am not entitled to comment on that but the passsage below, written by those who are on the streets should nevertheles be given attention. It is important we know their version of events too. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 23:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

When and if riots will escalate in a civil war, we'll let all of you know. Thank you for the "interest", but the most it could be called for the moment is "rebellion". Hectorian (talk) 23:32, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, it is useful to know what some of the rioters say, but that does not make it into a civil war. For the moment, given the time-span, I think riots covers the events. Over a slightly longer period of time, I would advise looking for other terminology, such as rebellion. God forbid that it should become something as terrible as civil war... Xenos2008 (talk) 23:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I do not believe it will become a civil war. In order of a civil war to erupt, you need a divided society. What we see today is Greek society vs government/police/authorities in general. All these days I have not heard from anyone that the demands of the rioters are wrong. They disagree on other issues. Everyone seems to understand there are problems, but in no way they are capable of causing a civil war. Btw, Greece has had many rebellions and uprisings (1831,1842,1862,1909,1922,1935,1974) but only one (externally provoked) civil war (1946-1949). In addition, with 1 fatal casualty, you can hardly claim there is a civil war... Hectorian (talk) 23:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I think that behind every of the rebellions you mentioned above lies a different cause, a different raison d'etre. The 1831 had as organiser the Hospodar of Wallachia Ipsilantis and the Russian backed secret society Etaeria (so this was, contrary to what you claim, externally provoked too though the "actors" were Greeks plus the foreign philhellenes). 1831 was a national liberation movement, the 1946-49 was an anti-Commununist backclash (similar to Spain's own Civil war). The 1922 was about Asia Minor etc. Now it's a "war" waged against the internal administration which is perceived as corrupt and harming the fabric of the Greek nation. Anyway, if the riots enter 2009 we have to change the title into 2008-2009 Greek riots. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 23:59, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I was talking about 1831, not 1821. I was talking about the rebellion following Ioannis Kapodistrias's assassination. Ipsilantis that you mentioned was not a hospodar of Wallachia, but one of the Tsar's general, under the title of "Prince", who served as military commander of Moldavia after the beginning of the rebellion. Filiki Eteria was not backed by the Tsar, that's why he condemed its actions. I will not go on dealing with your Greek history knowledge (you may improve it on your own with the help of Wikipedia). These days Greece writes a new chapter in her history; it is at least "inappropriate" to undermine it with claims such as "civil war". That's all, from my part. Hectorian (talk) 00:12, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

OK. Here is what wiki writes about this character: Alexander Ypsilantis (Greek: Αλέξανδρος Υψηλάντης - Alexandros Ypsilantis, Romanian: Alexandru Ipsilanti; 1725-1805) was a Greek Voivode (Prince) of Wallachia from 1775 to 1782, and again from 1796 to 1797, and also Voivode (Prince) of Moldavia from 1786 to 1788. He bears the same name as, but should not be confused with, his grandson, the Greek War of Independence hero of the early 19th century. The Ypsilantis were a prominent family of Phanariotes.

Sorry Hectorian, it's you who need Greek history lessons not me! :-) Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 00:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

You are kidding, right? the Alexander Ypsilantis you just mentioned was already dead by the time of either the Greek War of Independance (1821) or the 1831 revolt. So, you could not have had this one in mind, unless you have no sense of time and history. So, spare me the misleading and tutoring... Hectorian (talk) 00:29, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, there is definitely a Wallachian connection of the Ipsilantis for sure.

Of course there is; and this is what you solely had in mind when you mentioned them. But, no matter what you can ever claim, they were (and surprisingly are!) Greeks, as you may have heard... Hectorian (talk) 00:57, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually they hailed from Pontos (Trapezunt) Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 01:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I know. Hectorian (talk) 01:14, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

On Saturday night, the Greek police assassinated a 15 year old student. His assassination was the straw that broke the camel’s back. It was the continuation of a coordinated action, by state terrorism and the Golden Dawn, which aimed at university and high school students (with the private universities first), at migrants that continue to be persecuted for being born with the wrong colour, at the employees that must work to death without compensation. The government of cover-ups with its praetors, having burnt the forests last summer, is responsible for all major cities burning now, too. It protected financial criminals, all those involved in the mobile phone interceptions scandal, those looting the employees’ insurance funds, those kidnapping migrants, those who protected the banks and the monasteries that steal from the ordinary people. We are in Civil War: With the fascists, the bankers, the state, the media wishing to see an obedient society. There are no excuses, yet they once again try to use conspiracy theories to calm spirits down. The rage that had accumulated had to be expressed and should not, by any means, end. Throughout the world we are making headlines, it was about time that people uprise everywhere. The generation of the poor, the unemployed, the partially employed, the homeless, the migrants, the youth, is the generation that will smash every display window and will wake up the obedient citizens from their sleep of the ephemeral American dream.

Indeed, 'Riots' seems now clearly misleading, since we have a global oppositions. I'm not a native speaker, but a better word should be provide. Yug (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Yug! Riot is demeaning u r right! Riot sounds a bit like skirmish, amok or vandalism (a bit like what the football hooligans do after their team looses). In fact it is a revolt, not riots and recent opinion polls confirmed that up to 48% of the Greeks do believe this is a revolt. Seelink Εξέγερση "βλέπει" το 48% των πολιτών [32]Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 00:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

• From what I can tell, the riots (with the exception of yesterday) are now minor clashes in Athens. The situation in most cities is under control. And I do not think that is a civil war...
• We have already decided by consensus that it's not only anarchists rioting, but other groups as well (a large part is immigrants). So saying what anarchists said to "present all sides of view" is presenting a part of some who riot.
• Usually, points of view of extremist groups are not presented here, because they're extreme.
• All rioters altogether have no "official" stance really.
• Most anarchists (and this will not sound well to many) are extreme left-wing fanatics with some grandpa or so dead in the Civil war, and they have been raised with fanaticism. Others simply hate everything because they did not grow with their parents but practically all be themselves. So including their view here would not be so encyclopedic and, at least for now, it would be misleading. Whenever you ask them, they're in civil war. Those people think it is 1917 or 1950.
• NPOV includes common facts, neutrally presented, and at the moment eveyone is speaking about about riots (international press, Greek media, etc.) What a poll about the Greeks shows is not good enough to make us talk about civil war. (By the way, Youtube and blogs are not RS nd are not used).
• The riots are on 2008. 2009 is 12 days away. And even some minor clashes in 2009 would not be enough to change the title to 2008-2009 greek riots.--Michael X the White (talk) 10:02, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Mike, as to your claim that a large part of the rioters were "immigrants", there is this link to an article published by the Cypriot media [33]. Indeed, it seems that foreign nationals (i.e. Cypriot students living in Greece) were/are arrersted after being actively involved in the riots. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 12:48, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Cypriots are not immigrants in Greece, you know. Cypriots are Greeks and Greece is their home. Check out the police reports, more than 100 immigrants were arrested during the riots.--Michael X the White (talk) 14:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The Cypriots are foreign nationals in Greece, and I know many Cypriots who are not ethnic Greeks (i.e. Armenians, Maronites, English etc.) A Cypriot national is a holder of a Cypriot passport and this transcends any narrow ethnic/tribal/religious projection. That absurd ideology urging for "Enosis" (i.e. Cyprus becoming a Greek dusty nomarxia ruled directly by Athens)failed lamentably much as the Greek Junta pushed for it, so Greece and Cyprus are today different countries, their citizens foreign nationals when residing in other countries than their respective homeland. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 14:20, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't be silly. If they were Cypriot students, they obviously weren't immigrants. And the overwhelming majority of Cypriots are ethnic Greeks, which is why by law they are treated differently from the citizens of any other country, unless you want to deny them that too. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 14:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm not being silly at all. You can't grasp a basic thing Kekrops: Greece and Cyprus are two different countries and a Cypriot, when in Greece, is a foreign national.(it's pretty much like Belgium and France or Germany and Austria). Now there might be special cultural, religious, educational facilities in place for those Cypriots who claim Greek origin etc. but I think they are pretty much treated like everybody else: no special treatment (you remember that recent case of that Cypriot student savagely beaten by the Greek police in Salonica: they almost disfigured him?). So hardly brotherly love between the Cypriots and you the kalamaradhes. Sorry! (I'll have look and come back with the link and his photo). One of the reasons why Cypriots rioted in Greece is that they felt (and probably are) discriminated. It's as simple as that! Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Look. In Greece we don't care what your passport says but where your parents and their parents and grandparents came from. There is unity between Greeks and Greeks in Cyprus (Cypriots) and there is even unity in the state. The national anthem is the same, and there is a flag of the Hellenic Republic next to every flag of the Cypriot Republic in Cyprus itself.--Michael X the White (talk) 15:31, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, you yourself might not care but for the Greek Police is "business as usual". When it comes to beating people up, the Cypriots' Greek heritage amounts to nothing. It does not shield them from being disfigured by the batsoi. Greek policemen charged with beating Cypriot student Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 16:31, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

If it doesn't shield the mainlanders, why should it shield the Cypriots? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 16:36, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Since Cyprus is now an EU state, Cypriots do not rely on Greek law (and any claims to homogeneis status) and have the rights of all EU nationals, whether as tourists, students or residents of Greece. Greek immigration law does not consider EU nationals as immigrants, but does consider homogeneis without Greek citizenship as allodapoi. 87.202.104.29 (talk) 17:54, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The Larissa Cypriot Students’ Union (FEFYL) yesterday held a protest outside the Greek Embassy in Nicosia, calling for the release of two Cypriot students arrested for their alleged involvement in demonstrations in Greece over the shooting of 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos

As much as people like Apostol Margarit would rejoice in seeing Greece descend into a suicidal civil war, we are obliged to report the events as they really are, which is why we employ the terminology used by mainstream reputable sources. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 10:18, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Hrisi Avgi (Golden Dawn)

Do any of you believe that the Golden Dawn, are among the protagonists too, perhaps on the side of the Establishment? There is a hint as to that in the text above. There are claims that the latest victim (the teenager, fortunately only shot in the arm and now recovering) was a target of a marksman member of the Dawn. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 00:27, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Another version I heard was that it was done by those opposing "the Establishment", as black propaganda... Myself, I tend to think that any supporter of "the Establishment" would have to be a total idiot to provoke in such a way, especially when it is well known that a second accident would be totally inflaming the situation... NikoSilver 17:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The Golden Dawn, all 50 of them, are at the moment quite busy thank you very much. Protecting their offices in Athens city center from being turned into firewood.--Xenovatis (talk) 19:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Niko & Xenovatis! Ethnos dedicates today its front page to the incident. Seethis. So if not EL.AS then some of their acolytes for sure. They might be using the Dawn as "subcontractors" in return for other services (a Vatopedi type swap) but nothing is sure so far. Simple speculation though I'm quite confident the Dawn are involved. Their hatred of the left renders them ideal allies in the "war" waged against the kokouloforoi. As to Niko's argument, the situation was already inflamed and Athens in flames. What they did is to scare many a young protester by pointing the gun at them in the dark, like saying you can be the next target Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 23:01, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Activists based in Patras, Northern Peloponnese, have said that a well-co-ordinated counter-attack by fascist groups may already be operating in concert with Greek police, after known members of Greek fascist group Golden Dawn slammed into the lines of demonstrators in the town last night.[34] Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 23:22, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Greece's student intifada

It is The Guardian that is coining today this term, Intifada, and given the fact that much of the riots consisted of throwing/tossing/hurling stones/rocks at the police forces, I would deem its use quite appropriate.

Guardian text

Greece's student intifada erupted over the shooting by a policeman of a 15-year-old student, but the anger and lasting power of the riots imply a deeper malaise (...) Moving back to Athens in 2003, I found a society living in denial. Greeks were skimming the cream off the last rounds of EU subsidies oblivious to the tidal wave of globalisation looming over them.

I wonder if we should insert this term in the article? (riots-cum-intifada perhaps?) Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 12:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

As noted at the foot of the article, the author "is a 29-year-old writer and member of the €700 generation". He is not sufficiently detached from that which he is describing to be a detached commentator; nor is there any evidence that either the author or The Guardian is expertly qualified to decide on terminology for the rest of the world to adopt. 87.202.104.29 (talk) 12:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 13:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The major game in French May 68 was to throwing/tossing/hurling stones/rocks at the police forces. That's not an intifada. Intifada is for me an arabian word, use for events occurring in the arabian world. Yug (talk) 13:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, your argument is quite feeble Yug!

Alcohol too is an Arabic word.[35]

alcohol "powdered ore of antimony," from Arabic al-kuhul "kohl," the fine metallic powder used to darken the eyelids, from kahala "to stain, paint." The al- is the Arabic definite article, "the."

Yet this term entered the vocabulary of the major languages and is used as such without inhibitions. The 1968 Paris events occured at a time when the term intifada was scarcely heard of. But today, in 2008, this term has gained notoriety so I can't see why we can not apply it to the Greek events (geographically, Greece, as Palestine, lies in the Eastern Mediterranean) so I cannot see any incompatibility really! Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 14:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

"[...] use for events occurring in the arabian world." Yug (talk) 20:21, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

So you're just trying to find another way to pass something more serious than "riot" in there aren't you??--Michael X the White (talk) 14:18, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes I am Mike, that's correct! These riots are about to bring back in power the PASOK!

See latest

Riots that are soon about to cause a political change at the very top it seems. I think the term epanastasi would be the most accurate, but then I know you'd be outraged to coin what you lightly call "riots" as a "revolt". Yet all the signs are that the ND clique has had its days and the kokouloforoiare making history. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 14:36, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Good lord!!!! PASOK back??? That's a very grave threat indeed!!! But most citizens will realise that and will avoid it ;) Well Επανάσταση is not a new term around in Greece you know...--Michael X the White (talk) 14:53, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Hehe. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 15:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure Mike will enjoythis !! Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 15:31, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Polls??? Haha... We'll see when it comes to voting.--Michael X the White (talk) 15:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Why are you so excited, Apostol Margarit? PASOK probably will win the next elections, but a party founded by a certain Andreas Papandreou could never share your disdain for Greece. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 15:48, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Probably this disdain is the reason he so much wants PASOK back. (But I can't still see Γιωργάκη as Prime Minister...)--Michael X the White (talk) 15:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

You may both be sorely disappointed. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 15:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

When you find as many articles that describe the events as an "intifada" as those that use "riots", we'll consider it. Even the Guardian article you cite calls them riots. Twice. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 14:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Another term I read was "unrest". See here in CNN's explanatory article. Although "riots' seems to be prevailing. NikoSilver 17:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

That would be fine too. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 17:42, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Athens, Friday, December the 19th

Latest clashes.

It ain't over yet I'm afraid. This article will carry the "current event" tag for many weeks to come Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 14:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

This was just a reaction to the new shooting. The official announcement of all those who demonstrate/protest is that this will end for the holidays and they've set 9 January as a date for another demonstration. But I don't think last week will be repeated then.--Michael X the White (talk) 14:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it's important we keep the article updated (much as the Xmas season might keep us occupied with more epicurean issues)

Anyway, it seems the French Institute in Athens was attacked today at noon in Athens with Molotof cocktails. pelted with stones etc. I bet this will temper a bit Sarkozy's philhellenic zeal.

Επίθεση στο Γαλλικό Ινστιτούτο

Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 15:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Really? (Such events do not damage international relations). Keep hoping, though --Michael X the White (talk) 15:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

But apart from this Athens is quite calm today. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 15:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Everyone has limits! They'll be bored by now...!--Michael X the White (talk) 15:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

New section Consequences

Added a new section called consequences. Listed two off the top of my head. Please add some more. There will be more as this unfolds but there are several allready.--Xenovatis (talk) 20:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Reverting

Just a head's up for everyone involved here: reverts on the same material are limited to three within a 24 hour period. Please cease to continually revert one another; rather, move the discussion here. Regards, Lazulilasher (talk) 20:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Who done it??

Has anyone noticed that the name of the responsible Special Guard has just changed in our article: it was until today, Panagiotis Avramidis. I vaguely recall that the name I saw in the press was Epaminondras, so who is Avramidis then?? A baffled Xenos2008 (talk) 13:27, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Definitely not Epaminondas Korkoneas (alias "Rambo") himself. Ta Nea just informs that he's running amok, banging his head on the walls of the cell, hearing voices & seeing "demons". Most probably he'll be aquited as he plays very convincingly the role of a mental. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 14:36, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

More on Korkoneas: [36] Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 15:02, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

It ain't over yet

It's business as usual (i.e street fighting and fires) in Athens[37] and [38]

The novelty is that some hoodies now come clean and uncover their heads. Apostolos Margaritis (talk) 14:36, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

The ballistic research

As known the last weeks, the policeman did not directly shot the kid please update —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.30.24 (talk) 07:32, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

The ballistics research was inconclusive: there is no clear confirmation about a direct or ricochet shot. Please give your source, if you think you know better. Xenos2008 (talk) 08:41, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Article Split

I think this article should be split in two, one for the shooting and one for the riots. The reasons are that this article is getting long and both the riots and legal fallout from the shooting are going to continue for some time so this article is only going to get bigger. Any thoughts from the rest of the commmunity? ^{(Hypnosadist)} 11:48, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Not caused by Greek students so much as by Islamic immigrants?

I heard this somewhere. Apparently many mainstream media sources are covering the truth about the riots up.--Scientific Industry (talk) 13:36, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, all part of the international muslim conspiracy apparently. There was participation in the riots,mainly in the looting, by immigrants, some of whom were certainly muslims based on statistics. But that is the extent of it. Anything else is unfounded slander.--Xenovatis (talk) 13:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I saw what I presumed to be Muslims, looting in shops, and what I presumed to be Muslims walking down the street with bags full of 'things'. But I have absolutely no grounds to attribute the initiation to loot to 'Muslims'. Politis (talk) 14:51, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

The riots are not ethnically, racially or religiously motivated. Their roots are political and social. Whether muslims took part in the burning and looting or not, it does not make much of a difference. Btw, everyone who lives in Athens knows how many immigrants (many illegal) live in the area of the Omonoia Square. I remember when this article was created, there were some attempts to direct it towards immigrants. Everyone can check the article's history, and will see that some users even tried to write that the riots had started by immigrants days before Grigoropoulos shooting. For those who are trying to find multi-cultural reasons behind the riots, they will be disappointed. Quite the contrary to the media beliefs (that the immigrants have joined the youths against the government, the police and the system in general), Greece's modern generation is increasingly against immigration. With so high unemployment rates and corruption at all levels, Greek youths see the state's immigration policies as a ridiculous attempt which aims only in making Greece look like the USA. Hectorian (talk) 16:46, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Cat. and links

I erase a cat. and two links because the category is an interpretation not a fact, the media cover of some political groups don't modified a popular movement in an ideological one. There is't any source that affirm these protests have an ideological or organizational vanguard, I don't know what Wikipedia should be a primary source in this case.

About the two links, I think that protest supporter websites could be there -althought I'm not very sure because I don't know if someone in that websites is responsible by the published information-, but first I believe the external link section should be equilibred with websites of responsible and objetive media -mass media- and even any governmental news agency. I think, that will be better for Wikipedia and people that is looking for neutral information. Thanks to all! --Nihilo 01 (talk) 13:57, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

we are already having a discussion about the categories in "Anarchism removed", even though it started as a discussion about anarchist references being avoided in the article as a whole. Maziotis (talk) 14:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources and anarchists

The Independent. Murderbike (talk) 23:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Christian Science Monitor. Murderbike (talk) 23:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Sofia News Agency Murderbike (talk) 23:36, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Toronto Star with estimated numbers even: "Of an estimated 100,000 demonstrators across Greece, 3,000 are deemed to be hardcore anarchists, according to the police." Murderbike (talk) 23:42, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Spiegel Online "The protests began in the district of Exarchia -- a traditional haunt of artists, anarchists and left-wing intellectuals..." "he schoolboy's death has given the Black Bloc anarchists widespread support among the population for the first time ..." Murderbike (talk) 23:46, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

New York Times "Many of the violent protests that have rocked Athens in recent days, since a 15-year-old was killed by a police bullet on Dec. 6, have taken place in and around the school, driven by a group of anarchists who have often occupied the buildings here."

These are not reliable sources at all. They are lazy and opinionated newspaper reports, occasionally quoting the Greek police (who are not a reliable source). Xenos2008 (talk) 03:08, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

While I can agree with you, unfortunately, Wikipedia has a different opinion about what constitutes a reliable source. At this point, I think these are as close as we're gonna get. Murderbike (talk) 04:45, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

The Ny times, the Spiegel, the Toronto star, the Independant seems reliable to my eyes, otherwise, we have to exclude ALL newspapers. Yug (talk) 09:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

If you look at what has been printed, you will see that the articles simply refer to a stereotyped history of the area known as Exarcheia in Athens. The non-Greek newspapers are not reliable sources, therefore only newspapers published in Greece (some are in English) are reliable, as they do not commit this massive error. Xenos2008 (talk) 11:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but I think you'll have to take that up at WP:RS. I've never heard of excepting an otherwise reliable source for something like that. What's for me to think that the supposedly reliable Greek sources are just ignoring the anarchist history of Exarchia? I've read countless reports of this history from non-corporate news sources. Murderbike (talk) 18:46, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

This is just another attempt to hijack the article and make it into an anarchist story. Read above all the comments from Greeks living in Greece about this, and just accept that we are not going to permit the hijack. Xenos2008 (talk) 06:30, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:CIVIL. Accusing someone of trying to hijack an article by providing reliable sources is definitely not necessary. Can you please answer my question? You have shown me no reason to believe that these sources are unacceptable, accept your own opinion. Murderbike (talk) 08:58, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

And maybe these will help: Red and Black Flag, Red and Black Flag, Circle A, all discussed at Anarchist symbolism. Murderbike (talk) 09:38, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Ooh, and one from the American Enterprise Institute: [39] Murderbike (talk) 09:42, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

From Reuters: "500 anarchists..." "...carrying red and black flags..." Murderbike (talk) 09:45, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, it's you with the POV and agenda-pushing. I suppose there are some "anarchists" involved, but these newspaper accounts have no sources and are speculation. ONly idiots believe everything they read in newspapers, espeically when it is reporting of a foreign country with a different language and culture. Xenos2008 (talk) 12:26, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

You are the one with the POV pushing, as in an anti-anarchist POV pushing. These sources are as good as any. We don't have to prove that there were 347 anarchists at x place, but the fact that all this papers are reporting such connections is worthy of mentioning, whether it’s right or wrong.

Where is the burden of proof? Do you actually believe that there isn’t a strong insurrectionary anarchist movement in Greece? Do you actually believe that these anarchists weren’t involved, like they were in the past? You are trying to re-write history. I suggest you read a little bit of modern day Greek history and check the “terrorist database”. Maybe then you will see the big picture. Maziotis (talk) 11:18, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

The factual evidence, as reported in responsible newspapers and elsewhere, indicates that there is a wide range of people involved in the civil disorder. The extent to which anarchists proper are involved is a matter of dispute, and requires more information than you or I can provide. It is therefore an open question what their exact involvement has been. We do know that a lot of students and non-anarchists have been involved, so this tends to go against the claim that it is anarchist-led. However, I am open to any evidence (as, I am sure, are other people living in the middle of these riots). I am not open to being told that US newspapers know more about what is happening in my own neighbourhood than I and the Greek media know. Xenos2008 (talk) 11:57, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

That is fine, except that I don't believe that anyone here is trying to include statements that reflect wikipedia as a primary source, such as "There were 500 anarchists in that space, at that time". This is a question of reflecting what sources say, and that goes to the issue of whether it is "anarchist-led" or not. Given the sources that muderbike provided, I do believe that it is within the limits of writing a balanced article to at least mention the anarchist involvement. I think that is clear and required for now. I haven't read all the sources.

Please, understand that this can only mean a statement such as, "according to such and such, anarchists have such and such", as opposed to "anarchists DO THIS and anarchists DO THAT".

I still think you need to look at what has been happening in Greece for the last decades, regarding the anarchist movement. There are many issues with the capacity of these journals to report the reality of the events, but the fact that you are living there does not give you the power to replace their role. God knows I have a lot to learn from what is happening where I live. Maziotis (talk) 12:36, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree that there is some role of the anarchist movement in all of this. I also know that the newspapers have **** all idea of what is going on, so I ask you to be careful about sources. Xenos2008 (talk) 18:37, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

---

I don't like the way this discussion is evolving into a quarrel, especially since there seems to be no effect of this discussion on the article's content. There's a common confusion in the whole world (and in Greece too), between anarchists and hooligans. Truth is, most hooligans can be leftists, rightists, liberalists, extremists of any sort, even centralists [sic] or conservative, and, of course, some of them can also be anarchists. But the political ideology/orientation of a person is absolutely irrelevant to whether they'll pick up a stone and throw it on a shop window. In our case, although there are indeed some anarchists taking part in these riots, I think that the media have fallen into this common misconception/confusion and regard all rioters as anarchists. Read anarchy, issues in anarchism, and also hit ctrl-F for "misconception" here. NikoSilver 15:04, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Xenos2008, you clearly didn't read WP:CIVIL, as you've moved from accusations of hijacking (as if you own the article), to calling me an idiot. Please stop. You're also missing the point that these newspaper accounts are sources in and of themselves. They don't need to cite sources, we do. Are those communists carrying red and black flags all over the place and spraying circled "A"s? While it is certain that non-anarchists can get painted as anarchists by the media in an effort to slander them, it is also quite common for anarchists to be ignored and written out of history. We shouldn't perpetuate that activity. Murderbike (talk) 19:06, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Murderbike: I did not call you an idiot, and I have refrained from any editing of the article (one revert). Please pay attention to what others are saying, and accept that on the ground the situation is not what American newspapers are writing. Newspapers do need to have sources, otherwise they are worthless. I am not interested in pedantic rules of WP: this is common logic, which you appear not to be interested in. Forgive me if you find that insulting. Xenos2008 (talk) 21:06, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, sorry, I thought you were implying I was an idiot for believing what newspapers say. anyway, if you are not interested in the pedantic rules of Wikipedia, you may want to consider not participating in it, as you will inevitably wind up frustrated. Plenty of the rules (like ((WP:TRUTH) are very frustrating, unfortunately we won't get anywhere trying to subvert them.Murderbike (talk) 22:07, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

It was nothing personal, Murderbike. I was not convinced that you fully believed what the newspapers are writing, but obviiously (if you don't live in Exarheia, Athens) you need some written sources of information. For my part, since my youth when I read UK newspaper reports about people and things I actually knew intimately, I have iunderstood that they are just businesses. Nothing more, nothing else. Christmas greetings from occupied Athens! Xenos2008 (talk) 18:34, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

NikoSilver, you are saying that a man killing someone has got nothing to do with religion. It doesn't matter if he is hindu, christian, or an atheist; a murder is a murder. But it is related if we are dealing with a ritualistic slaying.

Throwing stones at store windows is related to my "political ideology/orientation". This is not irrelevant at all.Maziotis (talk) 12:57, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe I missed something, but where did I mention religion or murder (or communism that Murderbike mentions above)? All I'm saying is that according to all the Greek sources I've seen here, and according to simple logic, not all protesters/rioters are anarchists. Actually they are a small minority, since the local media mention just a few hundreds of anarchists, while the rioters are a few thousands. I'm also saying that the words "anarchy/ist" are commonly ab-used for "riot/er", as a common misconception. People tend to think that anybody who vandalizes behaves in an anarchist way, but anarchism is an ideology, not necessarily connected to violence. NikoSilver 18:57, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I have misinterpreted what you have said. My intention was to throw you a simple analogy that would quickly put into light something that you said that I found completely false and misleading. It won't happen again.

As an insurrectionary anarchist, I cannot accept that the "political ideology/orientation of a person is absolutely irrelevant to whether they'll pick up a stone and throw it on a shop window." If you want, we can discuss further on that. The intention of breaking windows of stores is discussed seriously in politics, both in terms of their ideological and strategic meaning.

About the concern of rioters being misrepresented for anarchists, I have already given my response above the line, in this section, to xenos. Also, you could check the section "Anarchism removed". I find your argument to be hardly objective as to under what authority would we determine what is "intelligent, proper anarchism" and "hooligan, media misconcept anarchism". This could take us to a whole another level of philosophical debate on ideology. Maziotis (talk) 19:09, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I understood the parallel now, thanks. I fundamentally disagree with "throwing stones at store windows is related to my "political ideology/orientation". This is not irrelevant at all." I repeat that anarchism as an ideology is not necessarily related to violence, and I've cited that above. In our case, on top of the common misconception for anarchy, simple rioters or vandals are wrongly called "anarchists", while in essence they can be communists, leftists, rightists, or even conservatives (neither of which believe in the ideology of anarchism). I, myself, am a capitalist, and I'd throw a stone if I wanted to... (I'm too old now for that though) NikoSilver 19:36, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

"anarchism as an ideology is not necessarily related to violence"

I understand that perfectly. But the question here is: Would you throw the stone as a capitalist or not? Because if I want I can throw stones too, but being a stone thrower can be a part of my activity as an anarchist. And that could be documented by reliable sources. To distinguish what is the sort of "anarchist expression" is, again, a question of reflecting the sources. I think you will find enough information to understand that some of these groups are organized, have anarchist symbols, and have an ideological belief. We are speaking of reflecting that reality, if that is the case.

Anyway, when a newspaper talks about "anarchist groups attacking such and such", we do have the obligation to reflect that “source x and y report that anarchist groups are…", without censoring the label. As long as we are loyal to the sources, the encyclopedia reader is intelligent enough to make the same judgments as you. After all, the fact that someone throws a rock because he is pissed off is also politically relevant. Maziotis (talk) 21:31, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand what the problem is here. Nobody is claiming that everyone in the streets is an anarchist, or anything else. All that I'm personally suggesting, is that more mention than exists needs to be made of the anarchists contribution to the riots/unrest. These sources all say it, and the anarchists themselves say it. Murderbike (talk) 04:46, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

While Wikipedia would never consider this a reliable source, this article is an interview with a Greek anarchist discussing the situation, and particulary the anarchist POV. This is the website of the Antiauthoritarian Movement, what I understand is the largest anarchist organization in Greece. Murderbike (talk) 05:11, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

And the press release from those that were occupying the Polytechnic, full of lots of anarchy! Murderbike (talk) 05:20, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It seems we have definitely found consensus for the necessity of mentioning the action of anarchist groups, as long as we are careful in reflecting the sources in accordance to wikipedia rules. Maziotis (talk) 11:14, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Weasel wording du jours

"Despite the fact that the protest in front of the Greek parliament was peaceful, the riot police attempted to dissolve it at 01:30 (local time) by using tear gas, at which point some of the protesters resigned themselves to violence and firebombing."

Well smack my ass and call me Judy! I never realized that "peaceful protesters" go to "peaceful demonstrations" armed with molotov cocktails and firebombs just in case. But then again I'm not an anarchofascist piglet. 94.68.185.173 (talk) 23:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

In Boston, we go to Christmas dinner equipped like that, Judy. Hiberniantears (talk) 02:27, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Rioters, Students, Manifestants claims and political requests

We know that they have claims : when students seize a TV studio, they talked about the current economic crisis ; manifestans have denounced corruption ; peoples request the demission of the governement.

Can we have a more clear section about this. Yug (talk) 15:15, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Low level and propaganda stuff-Nothing to do with encyclopedia level information

Well this article is the anarhists heaven. The excact defination of an POV. If wikipedia was a real environment it would became an attacked place for sure. By far the worst quality article of wikiproject Greece (mulitple local law violations, full of pov approaches, unclear links). Suppose when things die down and the troublemakers forgot wiki, the quality will soon be improved and the article will acquire an encyclopedia level form.Alexikoua (talk) 16:26, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Could you please be more specific? Thanks, Murderbike (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Should be included that there are claims of a driven "revolution"

You know! Like the one in Ukraine, the "Orange Revolution" funded by USAID? Or the one in Georgia that was funded by the self-proclaimed "philanthropist" George Soros? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.61.21 (talk) 08:18, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Claims by whom? And who is supposed to be driving it? Xenos2008 (talk) 19:18, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Japan?

What is it with the description of the reaction in Japan? It just seems to link to the article on Japan. Is there any reason why? Hemhem20X6 07:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

It's not over yet...

Clashes at Israeli Embassy and more occupations on the 29th, and the US Embassy Murderbike (talk) 19:41, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I dispute the connection. Protest demonstrations about international events are part of normal Greek culture. Xenos2008 (talk) 10:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Does this count? Murderbike (talk) 20:54, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The New Year riots look like a continuation, I agree. But not the protests against Israel, which were mostly peaceful. Xenos2008 (talk) 21:27, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

BTW

i plan to make a major update (today or tommorow) on the "riots and political crisis" section as soon as i can get all the facts straight (and verified) i'm "delighted" to see that none of the talk page users (to say the least) has even added a single word on that section despite the fact that there are at least a couple of noteworthy events.--Der Blaue Reiter (talk) 16:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)