Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 July 27

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July 27[edit]

What is chattel slavery?[edit]

Searching for "chattel slavery" displays the article on slavery, but that article doesn't explain what it is (or was). Mary Moor (talk) 03:27, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

From iAbolish: ::"CHATTEL SLAVERY is closest to the slavery that prevailed in early American history. Chattel slaves are considered their masters’ property — exchanged for things like trucks or money and expected to perform labor and sexual favors. Once of age, their children are expected to do the same. Chattel slavery is typically racially-based; in the North African country of Mauritania, for example, black Africans serve the lighter-skinned Arab-Berber communities. Though slavery was legally abolished there in 1980, today 90,000 slaves continue to serve the Muslim Berber ruling class. Similarly, in the African country of Sudan, Arab northerners are known to raid the villages in the South — killing all the men and taking the women and children to be auctioned off and sold into slavery."
Exploding Boy (talk) 03:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Wow, that was a quick answer! Thank you! Mary Moor (talk) 04:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
It's related to the word "cattle", which are likewise property. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Mary -- in many historical civilizations (including the Israelites of the Old Testament etc.), slavery often had a number of specific restrictions, such as that marriages and family relationships of slaves were officially recognized, the "owner" could be forbidden to sell slaves in many cases, etc. Chattel slavery basically means slavery without any such restrictions... AnonMoos (talk) 07:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Word for secret, hidden and/or fictional books?[edit]

Hey guys -- been kind of away for a while, what with the summer and all. Alas, my absence must come to an end, because work beckons. And speaking of which, I find myself stumped: there's a word for secret or hidden books and their study, ones that may not (and, in fact, most often don't) actually exist. Obviously, it's crypto-something, but for the life of me, I can't remember what it is, and Google is kind of useless in that the search words I can think of only spit out stuff related to cryptography, which isn't useful right now. "Cryptobibliology" comes to mind, but that's not it. It's not necessarily a real word (in the sense that such a field actually exists), or a well-established one, but it is kinda cool. And I need it. I need it like a drowning man needs air. (Does that make this a request for medical advice? Crap.) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:49, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Well the books themselves may be apocrypha, which is how the books which do not form part of the accepted canon of the Bible are described.--TammyMoet (talk) 09:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Good word. But not what I'm looking for, I'm afraid. =) This is the kind of a word that has been used when discussing works like the Necronomicon or De Vermis Mysteriis, but it could also be applied to other books that no one really knows about, and which typically contain all sorts of secret and/or forbidden knowledge. The Necronomicon is, of course, almost ridiculously well-known today, since it appears everywhere -- but it's not famous in the context of the stories. Generally, it's considered to be a hoax or a myth, sought after by people interested in [and here's the word I'm missing]. I mean, this would be the literary equivalent of cryptozoology. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Esoterica? (talk) 09:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I could go with esoterica, if push comes to a shove. But it's not really what I'm looking for, either. This is a more specific term than that. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 09:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
There is the term grimoire, but that does not imply a fictive / fictional volume, it simply denotes an ancient treatise on magic. -- (talk) 10:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC) Ooops, --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
After a bit of googling, the only term I found that might fit the bill is crypto-phenomenology, but that word applies more to a body of knowledge than to books, themselves. (talk) 10:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Would they be Pseudepigraphs? So Pseudepigraphology? - KoolerStill (talk) 17:07, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Nope -- or rather, I guess they could be, but that wouldn't convey the degree of scarcity and mystery I'm going for. But that's a great word I wasn't aware of before, thanks! -- Captain Disdain (talk) 05:01, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
We actually have an article on the subject, Captain, but it's rather prosaically called Fictional book. I think you're right that there's a more learned term for it, which I'll return to add if it comes back to me in a blinding flash or I run across it serendipitously. (talk) 00:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm aware of that article, but it's not helping me -- I'm not really looking for the information, just the term. I'm a little surprised; it's been on the tip of my tongue for a while now, but I can't seem to remember it and spit it out. I kind of expected someone to be able to do it, but since that hasn't happened, I wonder if it's much more of a made-up word than I previously thought. I guess I'll just have to work with what I have and make something up -- for this particular purpose, it's not really a problem. Unless someone comes to my rescue, of course! -- Captain Disdain (talk) 05:01, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Soviet ambassador to the Ivory Coast?[edit]

Anyone knows were to find names of Soviet ambassadors to Ivory Coast/Côte d'Ivoire? --Soman (talk) 11:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

There are no Soviet ambassadors anywhere, because there's no Soviet Union -- hasn't been since 1991. Do you mean the current Russian ambassador? That would be Oleg Kovalchuk Vladimirovich, I believe. (Apparently, he also serves as the ambassador to Burkina Faso.) If you are trying to find out who was the ambassador during the Soviet era, that might take quite a bit more digging. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 14:22, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
The query was about past Soviet ambassadors to Côte d'Ivoire. I found a site now at, not sure if its really WP:RS. --Soman (talk) 14:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, I'm sure that if you were to contact your nearest Russian embassy or consulate, they could provide you with a list. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 05:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
I think Mr Vladimirovich is really Mr Kovalchuk - Oleg Vladimirovich Kovalchuk. -- JackofOz (talk) 11:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Entirely possible! It took quite a bit of Googling to get to that name. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 11:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Extremely likely is how I'd put it. Russian names come in three parts - the given name (Oleg), the patronymic formed from the father's given name (Vladimir > Vladimirovich), and the surname (Kovalchuk). All male patronymics end with -ovich or -evich (except for rare exceptions like Foma > Fomich, and Ilya > Ilyich). All female patronymics end with -ovna or -evna (except for Ilya > Ilyinichna, Foma > Fominichna etc). There are some surnames that also end with -ovich (Dmitri Shostakovich, for example), which do not vary with the gender of the person. But in this case, the only one of the three names that could possibly be the patronymic is Vladimirovich, which leaves Kovalchuk (a reasonably common Ukrainian-origin surname) as the only possible surname. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Eligibility for President[edit]

Following the answers to 3rd generation American section I understand that to be eligible to be POTUS someone must be natural born American, over 35 years in age and have been resident in the USA for 14 years.

Does the 14 years residency need to be the 14 years before the election or could someone born in America and resident for 14 years at any time in their life be president? If it is at any time in their life, would someone born before 1955 in Rio Rico, Tamaulipas and having lived there all their life be eligible to be the president of the United States? (the aforementioned city was officially ceded to Mexico from the USA in 1970) -- Q Chris (talk) 11:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

There's no dispute that your Rio Rico native would be eligible if s/he were to move into what is currently US territory and run for president 14 years later, but I don't think it's likely that s/he would be eligible at the moment. I'm not a legal scholar, but I believe that the section means "resident for the last fourteen years". If you look at the qualifications for members of Congress, you'll see that they're required to have been U.S. citizens for a specified number of years (despite not being required to be US-born) and currently residents of the state from which they're chosen. Given the citizenship and residency requirements, I'm quite confident that this means "citizens for the last ____ years". If this is so, there's no reason to read a different meaning into the presidential qualifications. Moreover, I can't imagine the statesmen of the 1780s saying that someone who had lived all of his life abroad, aside from his childhood, would be qualified to be President. Nyttend (talk) 12:25, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
The text in question says:
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
So it's not explicit that they mean the last 14 years (which I'd assumed). --Sean 13:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
It'd be pretty stupid if they did mean the last 14 years. There are all sorts of diplomatic and military jobs that would constitute very useful work experience for the president, but which require people to live abroad. I think the idea here is simply to exclude from the presidency people who may be American citizens but who have never lived in the country and therefore (presumably) have no deep ties to it. As a point of interest, George Bush ran for president in 1980, and he'd just a few years earlier spent 14 months in China, for example. He lost the primary to Reagan, but clearly there was no question of whether he would be eligible for the job -- he ended up being Reagan's vice president, and obviously could've ended up being the president at any time, if something had happened to Reagan. (I suppose it could be argued that Bush wasn't really a "resident" of China, but he was the American ambassador there in all but name -- it's not as if he commuted to work every day...) -- Captain Disdain (talk) 14:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
The official annotated constitution doesn't mention this issue. Algebraist 13:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
"and been fourteen Years a Resident" isn't a sentence structure we use these days, so it is a little difficult to interpret. We need someone that is familiar with English as it was spoken at the time. Perhaps the Language Desk could help? --Tango (talk) 13:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
That sort of analysis is just what a court will do when a case about this eventually comes up, but the court will also refer to the contemporary record (including writings like the Federalist Papers) to determine what was intended; a parsing of the language will occur in the court's reasoning, but that will not be the only factor. See Scalia's dissection of the phrase "keep and bear arms" in District of Columbia v. Heller last year. To answer the OP's question, the phrase is indeed a little vague and it will be up to a court to decide, some (controversial) day. Tempshill (talk) 16:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Being resident and living somewhere are two different things. The person serving in diplomatic or military service overseas does not become a "resident" of that country in a legal sense; in fact often where they live and work is officially the territory of their home nation. Working and living overseas in a private capacity may be different, as many countries require foreigners to apply and pass criteria for residency to be allowed to work there; tourists are not allowed to work. Beyond this it's starting to slip into giving legal advice which I am not qualified to give. - KoolerStill (talk) 17:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
How long was John Adams, sometime ambassador, outside the U.S (or the former sovreign states which became the U.S.)in the 14 years before he was elected Vice President in 1789? To be VP, he had to meet the requirements to step in as President. Then he ran for President in 1796 and was elected in 1800. His article says he was absent from the U.S. from February 1778 until August 1779. He returned to Europe in November 1779 .The article mentions his presence there through 1785, but no mention of whether his stay outside the U.S. was unbroken from 1779 to 1785. Diplomatic service or military service might be excused by law, but is there such legislation? So far as the Constitution speaks, he could have been a hermit in Timbuktoo for at least 6 out of the 14 years before he was elected vice president, and there is no sign of an objection. Edison (talk) 19:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
It sounds like 14 was chosen kind of arbitrarily, although it seems unlikely it's a coincidence that 21 + 14 = 35. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 11:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Battle of Seccaium[edit]

Has anyone ever heard of the "Battle of Seccaium"? This website speaks of such a conflict, which supposedly took place in southern Crawford County, Ohio, as being "technically and truly" the last battle of the American Revolution. I'm wondering if it might refer to the Crawford expedition, but searching Google yields so few results that I'm quite clueless. Nyttend (talk) 12:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

According to this (second paragraph), it's the Battle of the Olentangy that some consider the last battle of the Revolution. Perhaps the author of the page you cite confused the monument for that battle with the nearby one marking the site of the Indian village of Seccaium. (There's a photo of the inscription on the Olentangy monument near the bottom of this page.) Deor (talk) 14:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Your instincts are right: it's referring to the Crawford expedition. The monument shown in the picture is for the Battle of the Olentangy, which is near a historical marker for the old Native village of Seccaium. (Page through the markers here.) Someone combined the two and came up with the "Battle of Seccaium", which is misleading since Seccaium was apparently long gone by the time of the battle. And of course the Battle of the Olentangy was not "technically and truly" the last battle of the American Revolution, since the Battle of Blue Licks came later, among others. —Kevin Myers 14:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Tiberius Sempronius Gracchus[edit]

In the article it says: Tiberius Gracchus' greatest military victory came in Greece during the war with the plebians. Where in Greece? What war? What military victory?--Doug Coldwell talk 15:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

That was part of this edit, which I've just reverted. I'm not aware of any military service by the man in Greece. Deor (talk) 15:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Architecture with obvious references to science[edit]

I'm trying to think of any architecture that is relatively famous that has obvious references to science? My canonical example might be the Einstein Tower, where the form and function of the building were developed to evoke relativity theory. Any other examples though? I'm drawing kind of a blank. Any suggestions would be appreciated. -- (talk) 17:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Wardenclyffe Tower - Pepso2 (talk) 17:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Atomium (talk) 17:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
BMW Headquarters, if you'll allow technology inspired. Rmhermen (talk) 19:56, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
The Skylon was kinda futuristic, but I'm not sure if it had a specific enough implication to fit your criteria. (talk) 00:29, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Geodesic dome. --Richardrj talk email 07:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Trylon and Perisphere. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
What's that crazy thing in Brussels that looks like a gigantic atom? And that twisting building in Malmo Sweden? Lots of architects say their work is based on algorithms and computer generated imagery and so on. (talk) 21:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
The first is the Atomium, which someone has already mentioned above. --Richardrj talk email 23:06, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
The second is the Turning Torso, which looks excellent to me. Not so famous, but I'll mention it anyway, is Newcastle Civic Centre which has an acoustic lens beneath the round meeting room you see in our article's photo, and which amplifies a handclap very nicely. It also has what is known as the whispering wall, being a curved wall which allows you to have whispered conversations at thirty or forty yards distance. Oddly, staff at the centre don't seem to know about these things; and neither does google. Not sure why it is so obscure. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Then there is Jantar Mantar and Yantra Mantra, astronomical observatories in India; with each are crazy looking structures each with being some means of measuring some observed phenomenon. And on this basis, of course, there is Stonehenge and pretty much all henges & standing stones, albeit the science may have been rudimentary. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:16, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Category:Twisted buildings and structures may be your friend. -Tagishsimon (talk) 23:18, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The fractal patterns seen on the University of Southampton's new Mountbatten Building were inspired by research on optical nanotechnology research, we learn. This seems like a useful google search in this area. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The Washington National Cathedral in Washington, DC includes a space-travel themed stained glass window with an embedded moon rock. (talk) 20:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

The DNA Tower in Kings Park, Western Australia. The Leaning Tower of Gingin at the Gravity Discovery Centre in Gingin, Western Australia. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:25, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

When a Chinese people living in US have Chinses name but no English name[edit]

Is this possible a Chincese people living is USA can have Chinese name but no English name? I've notice it on my past phonebooks when I used to attend Chinese school i found alot of moms/dads have Chinese name but without english name. Or this Chinese mom/dad can have multiples of english names?-- (talk) 17:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

No one in the US, be they citizen or foreign national, is required to have an "English" name. — Lomn 17:49, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I've found, in Canada, that it is much more common for someone from Hong Kong (and perhaps Taiwan) to have an English name than someone from mainland China. It also seems that people from mainland China tend to spell their names in pin yin, which makes them harder for Westerner's to pronounced than the older (more familiar) translations (for example, Xiang vs Chang). But yes, you're "allowed" to call yourself whatever you want. TastyCakes (talk) 18:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Then how come when I got the phonebook, numerous of mother chinese name is "fill" but the english name rown is "blank". Is it the author purposely left the row blank to save time so they can type less, or is it the mom does not want the english name post?-- (talk) 18:05, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
If the "phonebook" to which you refer is specific to the school, then I would ask the school. What each person above is telling you is that there is no requirement for these mothers to have an "English" name. They may only have a Chinese name and thus the "English name" area would remain blank. To be certain, you would have to ask each person. // BL \\ (talk) 18:11, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Please make at least half an attempt to type something legible. Chinses/Chincese... This indicates that you are upset with typing Chinese, which indicates a racist dislike for anything Chinese. Then, responding with "numerous of mother"... Do you mean "many mothers" or "many others"? The name is "fill"? There are very few (if any) Chinese people named "fill". Do you mean that the last name is filled in and the first name is blank? I have had phonebooks from many cities. None of them have ever had a Chinese name row and an English name row (or even columns, which I have to assume you are referring to). The author is a computer. It does not have any opinion or concept of time and will not attempt to do something that takes less time. If you are truly interested in this and not simply trying to be an ass, please try to ask a legible question and I'm certain there is a good answer. -- kainaw 18:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Please see User talk: and the user contributions and draw your own conclusions about his/her interest.Sjö (talk) 18:46, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. I recognized that this anonIP was a troll, just not that particular troll. -- kainaw 18:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
To clarify my question is a student hand/phonebook we get from Tzu Chi every year. The Tzu Chi I went to is in orange county, California. First 48 pages is for Tzu Chi Academy's basic guidelines and policies, then leftovers is list of students, mom and dads list of phone numbers. The row is Student chinese name, then student english name, then gender a (M or F), then phone number, then father chinese name, then father american name, then mother chinese name, then mother american name. At 2000/2001 student handbook I notice 9 students have father chinese name written, but the father english name is left empty. 5 studnets have mother chinese name written, but mother english name is left empty. Every year I see this similar things like this happen.-- (talk) 19:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Is too many to track this scenario. Everyyear at Tzu Chi Academic orange county the student hand/phonebook I find at least 5 up to 10 with either fathers with chinese names witout enligh name written up post or is mother with chinese name without english names post.-- (talk) 19:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
What part of "there is no requirement to have an English name" are you having difficulty with? --Tango (talk) 20:12, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Oh, oops* I got it.-- (talk) 20:23, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
There may be no such legal requirement, but for practical purposes a name written in Latin alphabet characters is generally necessary to get by (official forms, etc). That may be what you meant by "an English name". Whether this series of characters is a strict romanisation of the actual name, or some kind of "translation", would vary. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Or, it may be simply because there is no requirement to have an English name. Ever.DOR (HK) (talk) 09:41, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

French Republics and titles of nobility[edit]

Our article on Duke of Valentinois claims that the title went extinct in 1949 when Louis II, Prince of Monaco, the last person eligble to hold it under the letters patent of 1715, died. The article states that the title went extinct in French law in 1949 which implies that the French Republic and law of the time recognized that title. I find it hard to believe that a republic recognized titles of nobility. It's just too good to be true :) What do you think? Surtsicna (talk) 18:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't all the European republics recognize former noble claims? They don't really mean anything, it's just a way to stroke someone's ego. According to French nobility, "Titles were abolished by the Revolutions of 1789 and 1848, and restored by decree in 1852 (and never officially abolished since) and now can only be lawfully used and given to their bearers in official acts with a decree by the Minister of Justice. Anyone who has a legitimate claim to a title can ask the Minister of Justice to confirm this claim, the bearer can then legally use the title in legal documents such as birth certificates (about 400 such confirmations were made since 1872)." Adam Bishop (talk) 01:41, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
"French titles ... were created until 1870, when France permanently became a Republic. The Republic did not abolish titles, however, and, based on existing laws and earlier jurisprudence, the courts have built up a legal system to deal with titles and their transmission." These are discussed further on this page on, a good resource on this subject. - Nunh-huh 02:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Thank you! Surtsicna (talk) 10:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
In Germany, noble titles are abolished; descendants of their holders dodge the law by using titles as surnames, thus there's a Mr F. Herzog von Bayern. —Tamfang (talk) 03:15, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Medical advice boundary condition?[edit]

Suppose a researcher wanted to ask a reference desk which of two alternatives would solve a specific population-wide problem (say, tuberculosis, for example) and asked what the peer-reviewed secondary literature (e.g., MEDLINE's reviews and meta-analyses) says about two specific alternatives (e.g., universal health care vs. releasing nonviolent offenders from jail). Would it be proper to (1) remove the query, (2) explain to the questioner how to browse the peer-reviewed secondary medical literature on PubMed, or something else? (talk) 18:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Asking for medical information is not a boundary condition in any way. It does not require the people here to diagnose and/or prescribe treatment for the questioner. See User:Kainaw/Kainaw's criterion for my opinion on the matter. -- kainaw 18:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Thank you; I agree the distinction is between advice and information. I would generally say it's important to explain how to use PubMed to limit to Human Reviews and Meta-analyses, sort by date, and I would even go so far as to suggest correspondence with an authority listed in an example link, such as: (which can be auto-linked in wikitext with "PMID 19519917.") (talk) 18:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Twin Towers (World Trade Center)[edit]

Where are the debris of the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center of New York City? -- (talk) 20:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

See Fresh Kills Landfill. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 20:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Small parts of the debris were distributed widely as memorials throughout the U.S., some of the steel was recycled. This site shows how it was all searched, sorted and processed: [1]. Rmhermen (talk) 20:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Wasn't there a less bizarrely named place they could have put the debris than "Fresh Kills????" Edison (talk) 05:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
If you look it up, you'll see if it's a very old name, and doesn't mean "kills" as in "dead", but instead means "riverbed" (kille, Dutch). -- (talk) 14:07, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
... an element that occurs in numerous place-names near New Amsterdam, I gather. —Tamfang (talk) 03:20, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


What is SWAPO for? Is Sam Nujoma still working for politic-like stuff. Is this possible he can become a leader again? [2] They said he plan to run for 2009 election.-- (talk) 21:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The two articles you link to actually answer your questions: SWAPO, created as a national liberation movement is now a political party, the largest in Namibia. Its evolution mirrors that of the African National Congress in neighbouring South Africa. There is speculation that Nujoma may run again, but it's far from certain, given his age (he was born in 1929). The constitution precluded him from running in the most recent elections, but would not do so in 2009. He remains very influential within SWAPO to this day. --Xuxl (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Western women at Unit 731?[edit]

I wonder: Were there any western women and children among the victims of Unit 731? I just saw an illustration from the film Men Behind the Sun, which showed a Western woman in a gas chamber at Unit 731. The article here on wikipedia mention this subject very briefly as : "Russian women and children". Were did they come from? Japan did not occupy Russia. Were they perhaps prisoners of war? Or Russian people living in China? I don't know much about these things. -- (talk) 22:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Manchuria. --jpgordon::==( o ) 22:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Manchuria. So they were not prisoners of war? They were civilian Russian women living in Manchuria? Is this correct? Were they the only western women used in this way? If so, then why were not, for example, other European women living in Manchuria used for this, only Russians? Was it perhaps because they were Russians who fled communist Russia and did not have any citizenship? I am only guessing, perhaps someone knows? -- (talk) 12:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)