Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People

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Level 5 Subpages

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Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

Voting count table (>60%)

P = passes F = fails		opposing votes
		0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
0	supporting votes	–	–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F
1		–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
2		–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
3		–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
4		P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
5		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
6		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
7		P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F
8		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F
9		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F

1. Discussions should run for at least 14 days before being closed;
2. Discussions should have at least 4 participants before being closed;
3. For a change to the list to be implemented, it must have over 60% support;
4. For a change to the list to be implemented, it must have 4 support votes;
5. Discussions should remain open until 7 days after the most recent vote.

• 14 days ago: 03:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
• 7 days ago: 03:29, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as people:

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Artists, musicians, and composers

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Entertainers, directors, producers, and screenwriters

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Military personnel, revolutionaries, and activists

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Philosophers, historians, political and social scientists

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Politicians and leaders

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Religious figures

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Scientists, inventors, and mathematicians

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Writers and journalists

Add Der Blaue Reiter

A "group" of mainly Germans and Russians expressionist painters, 6 of them vital and others could potentially be added as well - David Burliuk, Paul Klee  4, August Macke  5, Arnold Schoenberg  4, Franz Marc  4 and Wassily Kandinsky  4. The "group" was pioneering for the development of modern art, breaking away from traditional styles to explore abstraction and expressionism, making it an important type of Avant-garde  4. They also produced a vital paiting, Blue Horses  5 (which probably should be removed but sure). The Blue Rider 01:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. The namesake of my username; support as nominator. The Blue Rider 01:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Art history is sufficiently covered czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

@The Blue Rider:, Help me put this in context versus other performing artist groups at VA. Where as bands, rap groups and such generally perform jointly despite individual identities, other performing artist affiliations are a bit looser. Bands obviously abound at VA. A rap collective is viewed as a group so N.W.A  5 has a spot in VA. Acting associations such at Rat Pack, and the less vital Frat Pack and Brat Pack are omitted. Visual artist affiliations have a long history. I am not enough of an art historian to really know where to go to find comparables. I think it is more common for artistic movements to get attention at VA. E.g., there was a group of artists that propelled Impressionism  4, but I don't recall if they had a group name. Can you point me to similar artistic affiliation/grouping that is VA?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:52, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we have any artist groups listed yet, but there were plenty through history, School of Paris, COBRA, Nazarene movement, Barbizon School, Die Brücke, etc. The Blue Rider 11:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

If we are going to include artist groups we should start at the top of that group. Can you convince me that this group is the top of the list of artist groups? If not can you convince me that I should support all groups that are more vital than them as well as them? I am apt to nominate Rat Pack at some point now that I am thinking about this topic.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Der Blaue Reiter is the most vital "art group" of the Expressionism  4 movement followed by Die Brücke. I think I already justified its vitality in the nomination's discussion. The Blue Rider 02:02, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, is your claim that Der Blaue Reiter is responsible for the Avant-garde cultural movement (which went beyond visual art)?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

No, the avant-garde movement didn't originate from them, but Expressionism  4 is a type of avant-garde. This movement was significantly influenced by the group though.— Preceding unsigned comment added by The Blue Rider (talk • contribs) 11:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Blue Horses points towards German Expressionism, which it turns out is more broad than an artistic movement and seems different than the Avant-garde movement.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:01, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Avant-garde is a leftist social movement aiming to dismantle bourgeois conceptions of art, music, family, and more. This is achieved through various movements such as expressionism, dadaism, and others.— Preceding unsigned comment added by The Blue Rider (talk • contribs) 11:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

• Neutral. My main issue preventing me from supporting what is otherwise pretty important is the same regarding the Rat Pack: A) it’s not an actual group; and B) everyone who’s already on here is significantly more vital than this, rather than just being vital in their own right.SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

  Formal or informal it was a group, otherwise it wouldn't have a Wikipedia page. The group itself is vital on its own since it was through it that expressionst laid its foundations. The Blue Rider 18:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Swap Joseph Bonaparte  5 for Ferdinand VII

Going through the list of early-modern Spanish rulers, I quickly noticed Ferdinand VII as a pretty big omission, which made the inclusion of Joseph Bonaparte seem worse. Joseph was little more than a puppet ruler, put in place by his brother, that never gained any favour and wasn't able to do anything while the entire country (and empire) was in revolt against him. During the Peninsular War, guerrillas in Spain and revolutionaries in Latin America both recognised Ferdinand as their rightful constitutional monarch, making him the first such monarch in Spain. Ferdinand's reign after his restoration was characterised by a constant struggle between his absolutist rule and liberal constitutionalism, with both a Liberal period and an ominously-named absolutist period; as well as his attempt to keep the Spanish Empire together, ultimately losing control of Spanish America. When he died, he caused a succession crisis that resulted in the rise of Carlism and ultimately led to a revolution that briefly toppled the monarchy. So while Bonaparte only had a brief and ineffective reign because his brother put him there, Ferdinand had a long and eventful one in which he was a huge presence in many nation- and even world-changing scenarios. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:39, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:39, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support adittion per nominator. The Blue Rider 23:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support addition, oppose removal. Per TheBlueRider. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support addition. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal. Joseph was also the King of Naples where he made a series of economic, social and judicial reforms. His reign in Spain lacked popular approval but that precise reason is what makes him vital, his unpopularity ultimately led to the Peninsular War  5 (this should be bumped to level 4, no?). The Blue Rider 23:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Jensen Huang

He is making AI feasible for the masses. Will be the first to lead a company (Nvidia  5) to 5T valuation, IMO.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per TonyTheTiger. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:06, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Until Nvidia actually hits a 5T market cap, oppose. Nvidia's success can be attributed to having the best GPUs which every single commercial deep learning application today requires. Jensen Huang did not invent the idea that GPUs can accelerate deep learning nor did he design or implement the current GPUs that are used today. Nvidia is its product more so than it is its CEO/founder. I'd much rather see someone like Satya Nadella added first because Microsoft's insane recent success can be directly linked to him: after 14 years of near-zero growth under Steve Ballmer, Nadella has 10x'ed Microsoft's stock price (27% growth per year), making it the most valuable company in the world right now. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:43, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

   I would support that if you proposed it. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

   User:Aurangzebra, are you watching. Price closed on 2/6 682.23. Today 926.69. I hope you aren't shorting this thing.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

   @TonyTheTiger: Haha I would never short it. As I said before, Nvidia is its product more than it is Jensen Huang. Every single ML application with a modern-day workload needs GPUs and ML is what's red-hot right now so GPUs are flying off the shelves. Jensen Huang didn't invent the GPU, nor is it possible to directly attribute him to the specific decisions that have made Nvidia GPUs the leaders in the market e.g. things like CUDA lock-in. If tomorrow they announced that Jensen Huang retired and TonyTheTiger was taking over, I'd still be long NVIDIA. It's like selling ice-cold water in the middle of the desert; the salesman doesn't matter since the product sells itself. And this is evidenced by the fact that almost any company that has any stake in the GPU game has doubled their stock price in the last 5 years: ASUS (102%), AMD (861%), and especially Supermicro (5863%). Should we list Supermicro's CEO since their growth is over twice the growth of Nvidia? Aurangzebra (talk) 10:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

   Not sure about Supermicro, but if any company were to replace Jensen Huang with me, short them.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Some popular musician removals

Remove Tiny Tim (musician)

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It seems he was considered a camp icon at some point, but I don’t think he’s remembered all that much. He only had one hit single.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. feminist🚰 (talk) 04:16, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
3. pbp 13:18, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Swap with Spike Jones, otherwise support. I feel like Jones is a lot more remembered than Tiny Tim. He definitely had a much more successful career than him, at least. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove The Shaggs

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Too much of a cult band for a VA. Their proto-punk charm trails behind the Velvet Underground’s song " After Hours" which came out a few months before their only album, Philosophy of the World.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Love the name, but not convinced they are vital (Isn't "Weird Al" Yankovic  5 "outside music"? the right argument might change my mind).TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   In what realm is Weird Al considered an outside musician? He’s been working within the music industry since forever. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   What is outside music?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   From our outsider music article: Outsider music (from "outsider art") is music created by self-taught or naïve musicians. The term is usually applied to musicians who have little or no traditional musical experience, who exhibit childlike qualities in their music, or who have intellectual disabilities or mental illnesses.

   This is why Weird Al doesn’t qualify as an outsider musician. He is a comedic musician. Outsider musicians don’t win Grammys, their records don’t chart (let alone reach gold or platinum), and they don’t make professional music videos (sometimes with the help of the people their parodying). SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Outsider music  5 is gaining support for being removed from V5 at the Society section. If the genre is not included, I have to change my stand to support removing this too. No point in having an artist without the genre. --Makkool (talk) 13:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Think we need at least one outside music act. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   Swap with Daniel Johnston, otherwise still oppose. Per Makkool. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:16, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. Agree with User:SailorGardevoir that we need at least one outsider musician. Who could be considered the most vital? Daniel Johnston could be a strong contender. Or maybe Wesley Willis or Jandek. --Makkool (talk) 20:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Niño Ricardo

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Only six interwikis. From the article, it’s hard to tell what makes him stand out from other flamenco artists.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 20:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Bring Me the Horizon

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We have Evanescence, My Chemical Romance, Fall Out Boy, Paramore and Avril Lavigne. I know these are very beloved bands, but having so many from this era strikes me as generational bias, and these guys seem the least vital of the bunch.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. agreed feminist🚰 (talk) 04:21, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
6. 49p (talk) 05:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Sam & Dave

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I love some of their songs, but they were only moderately successful at their peak and didn’t really become cult heroes like other contemporaries on the list. I would rank their vitality as a little less than artists like The Isley Brothers or The Platters, who are not in here.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Swap with The Isley Brothers, otherwise support. The Isleys have had at least three decades of success. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Bay City Rollers

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Their popularity was short-lived.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. "one of many acts" feminist🚰 (talk) 04:23, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Did I nominate these guys about 3 months ago in my 3 groups of musical acts that I nominated?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

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Remove Andy Williams

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Six Grammy nominations, had his own TV show. The article claims that he has sold over 45 million records, but the pointed source does not back that. I doubt that’s an accurate number.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support --Makkool (talk) 20:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove John Farnham

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He released the second-best-selling album in Australia, but it doesn’t seem he replicated this success.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. feminist🚰 (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. I don't think he was as vital to the world as Kings of Leon whose nomination failed (5 multiplatinum albums in AUS where they first made it and eventually multiplatinum well beyond Oceania) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
6. From a harsh perspective, you could say he was a one-hit wonder which is not enough for vitality. Gizza (talk) 02:38, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Kurtis Blow  5

A pioneering rapper. Other than “The Breaks” his discography doesn’t really stand out.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Discography is weak because he was helping make Rap a thing. His entire market was early adopters. Rap became mainstream because of people like him. per SailorGardevoir who is neutral below.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per SailorGardevoir below. Would also support a swap with Lil Jon, if straight removal doesn't get enough support. Makkool (talk) 17:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. Idiosincrático (talk) 14:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• Swap with Lil Jon, otherwise neutral. Personally, I think Kurtis Blow being the first rapper to sign to a major label kind of makes him vital. That said, I do feel like Lil Jon is much more important than him. We don’t have anyone representing crunk, which is very glaring considering it was the biggest hip hop subgenre during the 2000s.SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Why don't we just add LJ.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Remove Neutral Milk Hotel

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One (very) influential album, but I don’t think that’s enough for a VA. There are alternative bands who've had similarly acclaimed records with much longer careers that we don't list: The Flaming Lips, Wilco, LCD Soundsystem, to name a few.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. agreed re the comparisons feminist🚰 (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Swap with In the Aeroplane Over the Sea, otherwise swap with Wilco, otherwise support. If a band is mostly here for the massive cult surrounding one of their albums, shouldn’t that album be the one that’s vital? If not, then switch them with Wilco; not only do they have a longer career, they also have the whole Yankee Hotel Foxtrot debacle going for them.
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Support swap with ITAOTS Iostn (talk) 23:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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(Not OP) Remove Akon

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How has no one requested his removal? The guy’s rated low on all three WikiProjects he’s in. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Makkool (talk) 20:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Elaine Paige and Patti LuPone

Look, I know that we really need to cut the actors/actresses section, but these two are probably the most well known actresses in musical theatre for West End and Broadway respectively. The former has been outright called the First Lady of British Musical Theatre, while the latter has multiple awards and nominations under her belt. (Yes, both of them also played Eva Perón in Evita.)

Support

1. As nom. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:09, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
3. --EleniXDD※Talk 08:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
4. support Lupone-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Paige not awarded enough, IMO.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Stan Getz

Helped brought bossa nova to the United States.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:18, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. 45 interwikis and rated High-Importance by WikiProject Jazz. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Vital musician. --Thi (talk) 13:29, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove certain sex criminals

Remove Mary Kay Letourneau  5

Famous yes, but vital? I'm not sure. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. pbp 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:59, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
5. EleniXDD※Talk 14:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose based on high level of cultural influence in the US. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Andrew Luster  5

Don't see the vitality, there are other similar cases we don't list, four interwikis. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Unknown person. The Blue Rider 00:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. pbp 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
5. EleniXDD※Talk 14:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Bilal Skaf  5

One single interwiki probably isn't a great sign Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Unknown person. The Blue Rider 00:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. pbp 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
5. EleniXDD※Talk 14:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
6. We don't even list Sydney gang rapes, which would probably be the more significant topic than the ringleader. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Bankim Chandra Chatterjee

He is often viewed as India's first great novelist and one of the most important figures of the Bengal Renaissance  5. He is best known for the novel Anandamath, considered a seminal work in Indian literature  4, which gave rise to Vande Mataram, India's national song.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Support per nom. Gizza (talk) 03:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Minor Threat

Considering Fugazi  5 is vital, I feel like MacKaye's (frontman of Fugazi and Minor Threat) band Minor Threat is also influential. Minor Threat standardized the DIY-punk scene, coined the term straight edge with a song (unintentionally), and influenced the punk scene with its ethics and aesthetics (especially the Washington, D.C. hardcore scene). Considering those reasons and how many sources call them with one of the "influential" punk bands, it seems the band is a simple addition.

Support

1. Nom. 49p (talk) 02:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Makkool (talk) 17:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nomination Idiosincrático (talk) 14:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Hunter Moore  5

Being the "most hated man on the internet" for a short period of time doesn't make him vital, five interwikis, He's a bit more notable than the others I nominated for removal but I still don't think he passes the bar. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:02, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
3. agree --EleniXDD※Talk 08:54, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Hoagy Carmichael

Very successful songwriter. Wrote several hundred songs, including “Stardust”, “Georgia on My Mind”, “Skylark”, and “Ole Buttermilk Sky”. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:09, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Was going to propose this myself yesterday after being inspired by your other suggestions but you beat me to it. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:58, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Ken Shimizu  5

Japanese pornographic film actor. His claim to vitality does not look properly sourced.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 09:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 18:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Idiosincrático (talk) 10:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose for now as the proposal seems more based on content issues with the article itself rather than his actual level of vitality. I think in this case before being proposed, the article needs work with sourcing to verify its vitality, along with needing major updates since the career section does seem very out-of-date. Iostn (talk) 20:25, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Mississippi John Hurt

Probably the biggest person whose career got revived thanks to the American folk music revival.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:10, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 13:32, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add either Thomas A. Dorsey, The Dixie Hummingbirds, or Blind Willie Johnson

I think we can squeeze one more gospel act on here, but unfortunately I’m not sure which of these three I want to add.

My first option was Thomas A Dorsey. I have frequently heard of him referred to as the Father of Gospel Music. Our article claims that he’s written 3,000 songs, including “Peace in the Valley” and “Take My Hand, Precious Lord”, the latter being the favorite song of Martin Luther King Jr.  4. Note however that he is rated low-importance on the WikiProject Christian music. (Although he’s also conversely rated as Top-importance on the WikiProject African diaspora.)

My next option is The Dixie Hummingbirds. Rated high-importance on the WikiProject Christian music, they are probably the most well-known jubilee quartet. They have inspired Jackie Wilson  5 and James Brown  4, backed Paul Simon  5 in his song “Loves Me Like a Rock”, and their rendition of Amazing Grace  5 is in the Grammy Hall of Fame.

My third option is Blind Willie Johnson. So, he’s a bit of a curveball; I know to a lot of people, Johnson is a blues musician first and foremost. I’m advocating him because unlike his fellow Texan Blind Lemon Jefferson, all of Johnson’s records had a religious bent to them. His songs include “In My Time of Dying”, “It’s Nobody’s Fault but Mine”, “John the Revelator”, and the one that went to outer space on the Voyager “Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground”.

Support Thomas A. Dorsey

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:18, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Support The Dixie Hummingbirds

Support Blind Willie Johnson (please indicate if you want to put him in the R&B section)

1. Probably under R&B as he does seems to be more frequently described as such Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Miguel Ángel Juárez  5. Add Manuel Belgrano

Swapping a lesser president for Belgrano, arguably Argentina's most important founding father after San Martín.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:27, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Major omission. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:54, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add The Specials

Leading drivers of second-wave ska. Their label 2 Tone Records is the namesake of the Two-tone music genre.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Allen Klein

An extremely controversial manager. Associated with Sam Cooke  5, The Beatles  3, and The Rolling Stones  4.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Russell Simmons

Yes, we got plenty of hip-hop executives on here (including fellow Def Jam founder Rick Rubin  5), but I still feel like he’s pretty important.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
2. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Norman Granz

Founder of Verve Records and manager of Ella Fitzgerald  4.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sam Gilliam

He seems somewhat important. I am not an art scholar.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. 3 interwikis suggest that he was not influential. The Blue Rider 11:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Stephen Thomas Erlewine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Online music critic, who isn't especially popular or influential. AllMusic would be a more vital article than him.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 19:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Swap with AllMusic, otherwise support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Weak support. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:35, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Felix Hausdorff

From the article: "[He] is considered to be one of the founders of modern topology and who contributed significantly to set theory, descriptive set theory, measure theory, and functional analysis." He was also a prolific name giver, for instance, Hausdorff completion, Hausdorff convergence, Hausdorff density, Hausdorff dimension, Hausdorff distance, Hausdorff gap, Hausdorff maximal principle, Hausdorff measure, Hausdorff metric, Hausdorff moment problem, Hausdorff paradox, Hausdorff space, Hausdorff–Young inequality and the Baker–Campbell–Hausdorff formula.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:29, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Very important, per nom --EleniXDD※Talk 05:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 17:52, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Bernardine Dohrn  5 for Fusako Shigenobu

We list two separate members of the Weather Underground under "terrorism" - Dohrn and Bill Ayers  5. The WUO was never particularly influential or long-lasting, which makes devoting two slots under a sub-section that only has 16 entries to begin with rather questionable/US-centric. Bill Ayres, leaving aside wherever or not he should be listed there or somewhere else, I think is the more notable of the two and his notability extends beyond that in of itself, which leaves Bernardine Dohrn to be removed. Fusako Shigenobu was one of the leading members of the Arab-Japanese Red Army which was active for much longer and way more high-profile on the world stage.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 00:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
2. makes sense, per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 04:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Yigal Amir

Assassinated Yitzhak Rabin  5, who had signed the Oslo Accords in an attempt to end the Israel-Palestine conflict, and is arguably responsible for derailing the peace process and preventing a two-state solution as a result.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 00:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nam June Paik

Very influential in installation and performance art, considered a founder of Video art  5.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 17:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Canonical reference for video art czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Some geographers

Add Friedrich Ratzel

Friedrich Ratzel was a pioneering figure in Geopolitics  5 and Human geography  5, known for his concept of Lebensraum. His ideas shaped the understanding of territorial expansion and the interaction between geography and politics. However, the Nazi Party distorted his concept to justify aggressive expansionism during World War II. Despite this misuse, Ratzel's contributions remain influential in understanding the relationship between geography, politics, and human societies.

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 18:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:36, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• @GeogSage:, these proposals might interest you! The Blue Rider 18:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Add Rudolf Kjellén

Rudolf Kjellén, a Swedish geographer, is renowned for taking Ratzel's concept of Geopolitik into an independent field. He introduced pivotal concepts such as organicism to the nature of political entities, emphasized regionalism, and further expanded upon Ratzel's initial concepts. Kjellén's ideas were later appropriated by Karl Haushofer and utilized by the Nazi Party.

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 18:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:36, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Some More geographers

Add Waldo R. Tobler

Waldo Tobler is most known for coining what has come to be known as Tobler's first law of geography, as well as his less well known Tobler's second law of geography. He is also well known for Tobler's hiking function, and several map projections, such as Tobler hyperelliptical projection. His body of work is highly influential. He was the first one to publish a paper on the possibility of using computers to aid in the map production process, created analytical cartography, and was influential in the literature surrounding thematic maps like choropleths.

Support

1. As nominator.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 19:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. I don't know what half of those things are, but he seems vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add William Garrison (geographer)

William Garrison is known for leading the quantitative revolution in geography, which included applying computers and statistics to spatial problems. His graduate students included Brian Berry, Duane Marble, William Bunge, Michael Dacey, Arthur Getis, and of course, Waldo R. Tobler, who took his methods/teaching and became notable in the discipline.

Support

1. As nominator.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Wendy Carlos

As I've said earlier, there are some big omissions among electronic musician, and she is one of them. She is known for pioneering work with Moog and produced one of the first well-known electronic music albums in 1968. As an aside, I was also going to suggest Delia Derbyshire  5 but it seems she is listed under Western art music - Composers instead.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom --EleniXDD※Talk 08:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I say this as someone who loves her work and has a copy of Switched-On Bach but Carlos is not in the same ballpark as the other artists we list. Most of her discography isn't even in-print or licensed to digital platforms anymore. Artists is such an oversaturated category and we shouldn't be listing artists that the vast majority of people in the world haven't heard of unless they have a demonstrable legacy that clearly lasts to this very day. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   I wouldn’t use Carlos’s stubborn refusal to put her music online as evidence against her vitality. It was completely impossible to listen to Prince on Youtube until he died, and I’m pretty sure he was a level 4 before that. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Yea but that wasn't my only point. Prince is a household name. Wendy Carlos is a deep cut even in the electronic music world. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

   Streaming/licensing aside, vitality isn't the same thing as overall fame, it also counts influence and importance to the field. Iostn (talk) 16:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Max Richter

Maybe one of the biggest classical composers around right now.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Big fan. The Blue Rider 22:48, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Way too early to say if he will be vital. No major musical awards won yet, relatively few interwikis, and no clear signs of worldwide renown. There are a ton of similar artists who I think deserve a slot here first and even those I would vote Oppose. One such example is Ludwig Göransson who has more interwikis, more than 3x as many daily pageviews, and an entire Wiki page dedicated to his awards and nominations. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Recentism. Agreed with Aurangzebra. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Mike Oldfield

Creator of one of the most culturally recognizable instrumental works of the late 20th century.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 13:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not really seeing the vitality upon a quick glance through his Wiki article. Yes, Tubular Bells is widely recognized but I think that's more so because of The Exorcist  5. When I hear that track, I think The Exorcist, not Mike Oldfield or Tubular Bells. I don't think most people would even know who composed that track or the name of the album it was on even though it is recognizable. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Tubular Bells seems to be more widely associated with the Exorcist in the US, in the UK it is a lot more well-known independently of that. I did consider adding Tubular Bells separately on its own to musical works but there have already been a lot of proposals there lately and I was not sure if it would pass. Iostn (talk) 16:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

   That makes sense. Maybe it's American bias but I hadn't heard of the names Mike Oldfield or Tubular Bells before reading this post and I consider myself fairly well-versed in music personalities. Would reconsider my vote with further input from others. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Philosophers proposals (mainly addressing sysbias)

As it stands, contemporary philosophers (Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Philosophers,_historians,_political_and_social_scientists#Late_modern_(after_AD_1800)) is very Euro/US-dominated, to the extent that Asia, the most populous continent only has 11 entries listed and nearly all the entries under "Americas" are North American. As such, this is going to mainly be for proposals to remove some of the more questionable Western picks in favour of adding some ommissions from the rest of the world.

Swap David Gauthier  5 for José Vasconcelos

Gauthier seems to be one of the weakest picks for the Americas, with low pageviews and nothing much on his influence. José Vasconcelos' ideas had a big influence on Mexico (both culturally and on government policy) following the Mexican Revolution.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add José Enrique Rodó

"For more than a century now, Ariel has been an extraordinarily influential and enduring essay in Latin American letters and culture due to a combination of specific cultural, literary, and political circumstances"

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Jiddu Krishnamurti

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Highly and long-influential lasting to this day, note the very high number of pageviews and interwikis.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Wow, didn't realize that he had been omitted. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Major philosopher, major omission czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add U. G. Krishnamurti

No relation the the former, and also an influential figure (although less so)

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. With such a low number of interwiki links, I question whether he had a global influence. The Blue Rider 11:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Byung-Chul Han

Maybe a somewhat recentist pick, but he is definitely someone who has became a big name as of late due to the relevance of his writings to 21st century society.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not a major figure in philosophy by any measure. The Blue Rider 11:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
2. I would rather wait a little more. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:38, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Kazimierz Ajdukiewicz for Franz Brentano

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Kazimierz Ajdukiewicz seems to have easily one of the lowest pageviews here, so I'm proposing a swap for Franz Brentano, who is mentioned as a major influence on the page for the historical school which the former belonged to.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 04:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:39, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Eino Kaila

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Even lower pageviews than Ajdukiewicz.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Philippe Lacoue-Labarthe

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Low pageviews and nothing here really to assert influence.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove David Stove

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Only really seems important for holding a competition where he declared himself winner and for being an openly racist bastard.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Olaus Petri

A major contributor to the Protestant reformation in Sweden. We already list Mikael Agricola  5, who was a similar figure in Finland, so I propose that we list Olaus Petri as well.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 19:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Propose

Discuss

Move Pau Gasol  5 and Hakeem Olajuwon  5 to Non-U.S. Men

Gasol is Spanish, and Olajuwon is Nigerian, but both are listed as Americans Maybemintz (talk) 22:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom, Maybemintz (talk) 22:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Gasol Hakeem is trickier because he attended an American college and played for the USMNT _pbp 15:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
3. S Gasol/O Olajuwon because of his international play notability. Hakeem has minimal notability attributable to international affiliations.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. You know you can just move them yourself. Although I am slightly against moving Olajuwon since he has US citizenship, and he never represented Nigeria as an adult. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Just moved Gasol. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Move Albertus Magnus  5 to philosophers

As far as I’m aware, bold moves (as in putting articles in different sections) is still allowed. I moved Albertus Magnus from the religious figures page to the philosophers page, but @User:Makkool moved him back. Obviously this calls for a proposal to see what everyone else thinks.

Move

1. Admittedly, this is just me skimming through his article, but he seems overall more suited for the philosophers page. I see your edit summary Makkool, but your rationale can easily be applied to Thomas Aquinas. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Oh wow, I didn't realize Thomas Aquinas was categorized as a philosopher. The way I've always edited this list is, that I've added theologians to the Religious figures section. If Thomas is with philosophers, so should Albertus absolutely be. Maybe we should move theologians under a separate heading away from other philosophers to make it clearer? Makkool (talk) 11:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

   No, I also think that the theologians should be listed under religious figures. I just think that Albertus fell on the philosophy side of the philosophy-theology spectrum. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

   I trust you've made the right call. I just wish there could be some clear objective metric, so that this wouldn't be a matter of opinion of us editors. Makkool (talk) 20:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Keep

Discuss

Add Chick Corea

Notable omission in the jazz musicians category. Pioneer of jazz fusion and according to his Wikipedia article, "considered to have been one of the foremost pianists of the post-John Coltrane era." Two of the other artists cited in that category are Herbie Hancock  5 and Keith Jarrett  5 who are already VA5 and he has more interwikis than either of them. In fact, he has 51 interwikis which is extremely high for a jazz musician. Some of his compositions such as Spain (instrumental) and 500 Miles High are fairly recognizable and are considered jazz standards that are highly respected and played in the jazz world. He is tied for 4th in the list for most Grammy wins of all time and every other artist in the top 10 is VA5 or higher. He also has an album (Now He Sings, Now He Sobs) in the Grammy Hall of Fame which indicates "lasting qualitative or historical significance." He has 60+ albums with their own Wikipedia articles (either with himself solo or as ringleader of Return to Forever) and multiple works that are considered the greatest jazz albums of all time such as Light as a Feather. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom Aurangzebra (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Definitely a major oversight Iostn (talk) 13:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Peter Thiel

I know he sometimes acts like a cartoon villain, but he’s been one of the most influential people in the tech world for close to thirty years now. He is closely related to PayPal, Palantir Technologies, and Facebook and has considerably shaped Silicon Valley politics as an author and investor.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Recentism. Let's see how his legacy stacks against other investors. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

   He’s been a notable figure since 2002. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Věra Chytilová

Czech filmmaker best known for directing and writing the 1966 film Daisies, which in 2022 was voted the 28th greatest film of all time by the Sight & Sound critics poll. Celebrated for her defiant, experimental, and uncompromising approach, she is perhaps the most important figure from the Czechoslovak New Wave after Miloš Forman.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Thi (talk) 13:34, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per Iostn. Daisies isn't even VA5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. Daisies is a classic film, but is she really well-known for anything else? Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Imbalance in martial arts?

There are currently 15 articles on mixed martial arts, a fairly recent phenomenon. By contrast, there's just one practitioner of taekwondo, four of judo and five of karate, even though taekwondo and judo are in the Olympics and MMA is not. Seems off to me _pbp 21:21, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I think it sort of makes sense. Though more recent, it is now a global cultural phenomenon and MMA celebs have more impact and presence on our society. I don't even follow MMA and I can name at least 5 fighters. Gun to my head, I couldn't name a single judoka for example. By your logic, we should be listing more wrestlers or archers or even pentathletes (all events at the Olympics as well) since these are all ancient sports. But clearly that wouldn't make sense. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't exactly watch MMA regularly. I've caught some fight highlights very occasionally. I recognize the names of 12/15 MMA fighters on the list. I recognize the names of 1/4 judokas, 0/5 karate/kickboxing, 0/1 taekwondo, 0/1 aikido, 0/1 muay thai, 0/1 capoeira, 1/5 sumo wrestlers, and 1/9 wrestlers. Even boxing I recognize only 9/43. starship.paint (RUN) 07:14, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Entertainer removals

Remove May Wirth  5

Obscure circus performer. 1 interwiki.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 04:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Snooki  5

I don't think she is among the world's most important entertainers. A bit of a flash in the pan.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 04:17, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
8. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Long John Nebel  5 and Major Bowes  5

I am not one to quibble that much about U.S. overrepresentation, but 26 of 29 people from the Radio Hosts section are American (plus another American-born). Some of these are too local. 1 interwiki

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Not even V6 material Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:16, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Dan Carlin  5

Podcaster of recent fame. Arguably not among the present’s most important to begin with.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Robert Emmet Odlum  5

Maybe jumping from the Brooklyn Bridge is a more important thing that I am aware of, but we have three people whose vitality rests on this act and Steve Brodie (bridge jumper)  5 was the first to do it.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:28, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Tex McCrary  5

Article says he hosted the first radio talk show, Meet Tex and Jinx, but this appears to be a dubious claim. The talk show article does not mention him in the History section. 2 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Nev Schulman  5

His career section does not stand out. He’s behind Catfish: The TV Show for MTV, way past the channel’s prime.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Marc Summers  5

It seems we have a surfeit of 2000s- early 2010s TV personalities and producers. Like Schulman, none of the shows he's related to are especially popular, have won awards, etc.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Joey Stefano  5

It seems he only became known for his death. For gay pornography, we have Casey Donovan (actor)  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think we can have more gay porn stars. In fact, it’s probably the straight male porn stars that need to be removed. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. We have near gender parity in the Adult/pornography section (14 women and 11 men) even though (as far as I know, for better or worse) women are more prominent in this industry.

Remove Saman Khuda

Since we removed Achaemenes, here’s another guy whose vitality is just “found a dynasty”. There are some differences (the biggest one being that there’s a general agreement that Saman Khuda actually existed), but like Achaemenes, he was never a ruler.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Samanid Empire  5 is enough. starship.paint (RUN) 09:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 21:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 01:53, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Eze Nri Ìfikuánim  5

This might not be fair since this article only has two sentences, but I'm not sure what make him vital other being the first Eze of Nri, a kingdom we do not list.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:44, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
2. good point --EleniXDD※Talk 06:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Good find. I wonder if there's an easy way to create a list of VA5 articles sorted by page size in bytes to get rid of other obvious candidates like this. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
4. The article was created in 2009 and has hardly been bigger. How vital can this person be if nobody knows about him? starship.paint (RUN) 14:45, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Swap for Kingdom of Nri. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

   @Iostn: I proposed that for addition on the History and Geography talk page. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:32, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove some English monarches

I think we have every English monarch on here. I think we can get rid of some of them.

Remove Ælfweard of Wessex  5

Guy was only king for a month.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:30, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 06:28, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 12:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Seems to have maybe been part of a succession crisis, but it was short-lived. He died before he could do anything. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:56, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:48, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
7. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:37, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Edmund Ironside  5

Was only king for seven months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:15, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. This one seems very important. He started a rebellion against his father, ultimately becoming king, and became a major figure in the war against the Vikings. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:11, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Harold Godwinson  5

Only king for nine months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:16, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think his involvement in the Battle of Hastings is enough to retain him. _pbp 12:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong oppose He represents the losing side of the Battle of Hastings  4 and the Norman Conquest  4, his reign marks the end of the Anglo-Saxon era, which is often considered the biggest turning point in English history, in terms of for example, Franco-Norman cultural influence, the rise of feudalism and the fact that line of heriditary succession of the British monarchy today can be traced back directly to the Norman Conquest. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Per Iostn. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:57, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Edgar Ætheling  5

Only king for two months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Really it's no months. Article states, "Elected King of England by the Witan in 1066 but never crowned." _pbp 12:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
3. You can only do so much in two months. The Blue Rider 10:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not as vital as Harold II, but still important as a figure of English resistance to the Norman Conquest  4. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Move Edward V of England to Miscellaneous

Besides only reigning for only two months, he also in the same position as Caesarion and Alexander IV of Macedon, which is "not doing anything beyond being a potential threat (in this case to Richard III) once he's an adult". However, I do think the whole Princes in the Tower mystery is enough to keep him on here. Therefore, I am instead requesting to move him to the Miscellaneous page, preferably under victims (although since we have no idea what actually happened to him, I'm fine putting him under socialites).

Move

1. Under victims. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:01, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Remove

1. @SailorGardevoir: This guy is really only notable for the Princes in the Tower mystery along with his brother, but that mystery is very important. Therefore, I propose we swap Edward V with Princes in the Tower. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:31, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

   I’m fine with a swap. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove some Principate emperors

I just realized we have every Roman emperor from the Principate era. We've since established that simply holding a position is not enough to be vital, so I'm requesting some removals. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

I think basically what we've established is the lettuce test. If your reign or presidency or ministry lasted longer than a head of lettuce, major officeholders like Roman Emperors, POTUSes or British PMs are usually kept. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Remove Galba  5

The first emperor of the Year of the Four Emperors. Only lasted seven months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap with Year of the Four Emperors. The Blue Rider 10:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Otho  5

The second emperor of the Year of the Four Emperors. Only lasted three months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Vitellius  5

The third emperor of the Year of the Four Emperors. Only lasted eight months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Titus  5

Lasted only slightly more than two years. Overshadowed by his brother Domitian, and even his father Vespasian. He is responsible for the destruction of the Second Temple though, so I can see why people would want him to stay.

Support

1. Weak support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. An eventful reign, as detailed in the lede, in spite of being short. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. The lead gives some good reasons for him to be on the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Included in several encyclopedias. --Thi (talk) 13:37, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Nerva  5

Lasted only slightly less than two years. Doesn't seem to have anything going on other than being the first of the Five Good Emperors.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Five Good Emperors by itself suggests vitality, and he also established the Nerva–Antonine dynasty  4. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Each of the Five Good Emperors is vital at this level. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 13:38, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Lucius Verus  5

Guy never ruled on his own.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Pertinax  5

The first emperor of the Year of the Five Emperors. Only lasted three months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Didius Julianus  5

The second emperor of the Year of the Five Emperors. Only lasted two months.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. About time we cut some of the people who did absolutely nothing of note. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Pescennius Niger  5

The third emperor of the Year of the Five Emperors. I'm not sure if people even see him as an emperor.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Clodius Albinus  5

The fourth emperor of the Year of the Five Emperors. Again, not sure if people even see him as an emperor.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Geta (emperor)  5

Like Lucius Verus, guy never ruled on his own.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Have been considering removing him for years. Overshadowed by dad and brother. Didn't even get assassinated in an interesting way (brother was stubbed while taking a piss) _pbp 03:34, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. He became joint emperor and was quickly killed by the actually important brother he shared the throne with. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Macrinus  5

Only lasted slightly more than a year.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Diadumenian  5

Like Geta, never ruled on his own. Also he was nine when he died.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:31, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Article says Little information survives about Diadumenian. starship.paint (RUN) 06:38, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 18:01, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
4. He was 9 when he was murdered. He never even ruled without his father's help, and his reign was less than a year. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Per QuicoleJR _pbp 01:02, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sam Bankman-Fried to finance, remove Robert Holmes à Court  5 and Elias Hasket Derby  5

Sam Bankman-Fried is a central figure in cryptocurrency that committed mass fraud and lost $8 billion of customer money and per BBC he got rich faster than almost anyone in history. He has 23 interwikis. Robert Holmes à Court, Australia's first billionaire, has zero interwikis, while Elias Hasket Derby, an American merchant, has only one interwiki, suggesting that both have low cultural importance. starship.paint (RUN) 06:34, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nominator. starship.paint (RUN) 06:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support removals, not sure about the addition Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:29, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:17, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support all proposals. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Support removals. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:41, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

I think it's worth noting that there are quite a few other businessmen currently listed at VA5 who have no better case than Holmes or Derby to be on this list. At the very least, Holmes and Derby were at one point the wealthiest men in their respective countries; some measures (such as GDP slice) put Derby among the 10 wealthiest in the history of the United States. I'm also a little concerned about recentism here: SBF is three years younger than I am, and made and lost his fortune relatively recently. _pbp 17:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Remove Caesarion  5 and Alexander IV of Macedon  5

I don't have any problems have kid rulers here, but other than being the heirs of Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great (and therefore potential threats to Augustus and the Diadochi), I'm not sure they even did anything.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:23, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:53, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

FWIW, Caesarion was the successor to Cleopatra in Egypt, not to Julius Caesar in Rome _pbp 16:10, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Swap Mumtaz for Gong Li

I have no idea why this given name Mumtaz is listed in Entertainers, directors, producers, and screenwriters, Asia section. I propose a swap for a internationally-renowned actress.

1) Mumtaz has only 7 interwikis, while Gong has 63 interwikis (more than most articles in the Asia section) 2) Gong is the first Asian to be the head of jury at both prestigious film festivals, the 2000 Berlin Film Festival and the 2002 Venice Film Festival. 3) Gong served as the President of the Jury at several film festivals, i.e. 16th Tokyo International Film Festival, 17th Shanghai International Film Festivaland 11th Beijing International Film Festival, the first woman to hold such position.

Support

1. as nom EleniXDD※Talk 10:30, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Just fixed link. However, I am in favor of swapping Mumtaz for Gong. SailorGardevoir (talk) 17:40, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Support addition of Gong Li. Gizza (talk) 04:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal of Mumtaz (Indian actress) as one of the most pre-eminent Indian actresses of the late 1960s and 1970s. Mumtaz has less interwikis more pageviews than Gong Li, which is impressive considering her careers peaked 25 years earlier and is less affected by recentism. Not that it should preclude Gong Li from being included. Gizza (talk) 04:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

I think Mumtaz is meant to be Mumtaz (Indian actress) - not confident wherever she should be included or not Iostn (talk) 12:35, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I have checked the list, there are more than one actresses named Mumtaz, so we can't be sure which on is it referring to. After some comparisons, none of them are as famous as Gong (internationally, comparison by number of interwikis, prestigious awards and recognition, hence a swap is a good replacement than the current state) EleniXDD※Talk 14:06, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

@Iostn any thought on the swapping - now the link is fixed EleniXDD※Talk 05:35, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I support adding Gong Li, not sure wherever or not the Indian actress should be removed though Iostn (talk) 22:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

@Gizza When I started the discussion, it was the given name Mumtaz being listed as vital, so I thought it should go for a swap. Not sure now after the link is fixed, whether should we just continue the discussion of swapping of the two, discuss for an only addition of Gong Li (if it's possible) or open a new discussion about swapping with another actress (cause entertainers list is over quota). Your reasons did persuade me that Mumtaz (Indian actress) should stay. --EleniXDD※Talk 04:53, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Swap C. R. Swart  5 for D. F. Malan

C.R. Swart was the first State President of South Africa after South Africa became a Republic - which was at the time, only a ceremonial position, as the actual head of government was the Prime Minister, which is highlighted by him also being the last Governor-General (represenative to the British crown), also a ceremonial position. D. F. Malan, on the other hand, is responsible for being the first prime minister to implement Apartheid  4 (under that name, as opposed to the older forms of segregation present in South Africa) and also marked the start of over 40 years of continuous National Party rule. The only caveat is that he is less well-known for his role in constructing apartheid than his successor, Hendrik Verwoerd  5.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 18:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom EleniXDD※Talk 05:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:39, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Walter Jackson Freeman II  5 with António Egas Moniz

Portuguese neurologist that founded the field of psychosurgery, namely the procedures of cerebral angiography, and more famously the lobotomy. He recieved a Nobel Prize for it. 51 interwikis compared with the lesser known figure of Freeman with only 13 interwikis due to his minor role comparatively in the psychosurgery field. The Blue Rider 23:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 23:32, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
2. We don't have the founder of lobotomy? Yeah, we should fix that. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:24, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 21:39, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom EleniXDD※Talk 04:36, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Support addition, not convinced on removal. Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Margaret, Maid of Norway  5

She was seven when she died. Also even though she's here for being the queen of Scots, she never left Norway.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. Sometimes, even if they lived for only a short period of time, their death may have many consequences, namely creating a sucession crisis, which was the case here. The Blue Rider 11:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Leopoldo Galtieri for Javier Milei

There's little of note in Galtieri's biography besides the Falklands War, which is already a vital article, so there would be overlap. Milei, the current president of Argentina, got international notice as part of the recent international trend of right-wing leaders. Cambalachero (talk) 16:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator Cambalachero (talk) 16:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. We now subject world leaders to the "head of lettuce" test. Revisit this fall when he has served a year. _pbp 17:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove John I of France

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This is a baby. This is not a kid who didn't make it to adulthood, this is a literal infant who died before he was a week old.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
2. A life of four days, how to be vital? starship.paint (RUN) 12:02, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 16:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
4. EleniXDD※Talk 04:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Idiosincrático (talk) 01:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
7. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:41, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Louis XVII  5

Per logic of John I and others above. Was a claimant to the rule of France but never really held it, and died young _pbp 16:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 16:55, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
3. EleniXDD※Talk 04:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Article: "He never actually ruled." starship.paint (RUN) 07:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I normally would not support an entry like this, but he held a special significance in the history of the French Revolution  3, which isn't VA4 but VA3, a time which is often considered to maark the start of the modern era of politics. Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Move the following people to socialites

I'm seeing a lot of people who are in the politicians and leaders page who were "merely" the spouses/lovers of actual politicians/leaders. Now, some of them did in fact had political power/clout despite not being in an actual position (Theodora, Jiang Qing, Eleanor Roosevelt, etc.). Others… not so much. Since we have the socialites section in miscellaneous, I think the following figures should be moved there:

1. Agnès Sorel (already moved)
2. Pocahontas
3. Martha Washington
4. Mumtaz Mahal
5. Marie Antoinette
6. Anne Boleyn
7. Catherine of Aragon
8. Sophia of Hanover
9. Dolley Madison
10. Joséphine de Beauharnais
11. Marie Louise, Duchess of Parma
12. Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha
13. Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother
14. Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix of Hesse)
15. Menen Asfaw
16. Ruth Williams Khama
17. Michelle Obama
18. Kim Jong-nam
19. Queen Rania of Jordan
20. Asma al-Assad
21. Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:38, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. First ladies of countries and royals should remain in leaders. Makkool (talk) 17:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Makkool. Mistresses of French monarchs makes sense but First Ladies, consorts and princes less so. Also not all First Ladies on the VA5 list are slated for move. Finally, what is the definition of socialite here? It's being used to apply to people who were alive before the term was commonly used _pbp 05:46, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

   That's a good question. I'm largely basing it off the vibes I get looking at that section, which other than Sid Vicious's girlfriend who I just moved to Other I feel like everyone fits. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:22, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

   I'm still unclear how you're defining socialites, especially for people from before the Victorian or Edwardian eras when socialite wasn't even a word. I suppose Pocahontas could qualify for getting promenaded around London, but what about her life in Virginia? _pbp 00:17, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   My definition of socialite is “rich person”. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

   I think there's more going on than just Wealth. There are rich people who are businessmen, leaders, etc. _pbp 12:10, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Move Françoise d'Aubigné, Marquise de Maintenon and Madame de Pompadour to socialites

Primarily notable for being court mistresses _pbp 13:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 13:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
2. I didn't nominate them because I felt like they actually had an influence on their lovers' policies, but since they weren't even queen consorts, sure. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move George Villiers, 1st Duke of Buckingham to socialites

Related to the above, here's the favorite/possible lover of King James. Again, didn't nominate him on the belief he had political clout, but if we're going to place the favorites/lovers in the socialites section, it should probably include him.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Grigory Potemkin to socialites

Only nominating him for consistency since he was Catherine's lover. As I mentioned, I only wanted to move the people who I felt were apolitical, which is certainly not the case for this guy.

Support

Oppose

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Move Yang Guifei to leaders

Since there appears to be a consensus that monarch consorts should be listed under leaders, she should probably be move to that page.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Sophie, Countess of Bar  5

I am just not seeing anything that makes her stand out from all the other rulers of the states that make up the Holy Roman Empire.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:49, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Even her French Wikipedia article is similarly short. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Why is she even here? Iostn (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Idiosincrático (talk) 00:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nicholas Miklouho-Maclay

I was surprised to learn that Nicholas Miklouho-Maclay's biography wasn't already included as a vital article. This 19th century Russian-born academic studied many fields and became a name in biological research as early as age 23; however, he later became known more as an explorer and anthropologist. Miklouho-Maclay's exploration and study of the North-Eastern New Guinea Coast (now the "Maclay Coast") was among the first and most famous of the region. The "man from the moon" was among the first Europeans to contact the Papuan people and learn several local languages; he developed trust and became accustomed to unseen rituals and culture. His work created a foundation for contemporary Oceanic anthropology which, on the island of New Guinea, is still not completely researched. His Wikipedia article doesn't quite do justice to his work which expands far beyond the scope of his famous stay in New Guinea; his work is highly regarded in the Australian scholarly community and he has several commemorative shrines across the region. I'd like think this article fits in the miscellaneous sub-page under 'explorers', but I'm open to other suggestions. Idiosincrático (talk) 00:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. Idiosincrático (talk) 00:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. As an anthropology major I am ashamed I had never heard of him, but he seems very important. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:23, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Jacques de Molay to military leaders

Final leader of the Knights Templar, martyred, namesake of the youth wing of the Freemasons _pbp 10:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 10:46, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:24, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
3. --LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 19:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:16, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Pre-contemporary US politicians clean-up

A little while ago many contemporary US politicians were removed in order to address US bias. In spite of that, this only really touched the "contemporary" section and earlier chronological sections still have a disproportionate US focus, which is actually a lot more egregious in this case as it predates the US even becoming a superpower which would warrant including more.

Remove Nicholas Biddle  5

Only really seems relevant wrt to the Bank War  5, and we already list his allies Henry Clay  4 and Daniel Webster  5 who seem more vital.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The Bank War gets enough play in the history books to justify Biddle at this level _pbp 19:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Roscoe Conkling  5

From the legacy section: "Roscoe Conkling's enduring legacy is scant. Though he was a consequential, colorful and powerful political figure in his day, few lasting social or legislative achievements are attributed to him."

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, probably not VA5 _pbp 19:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Not quite at the level of VA5. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:41, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Idiosincrático (talk) 02:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Hiram Johnson  5

State governor, long-serving senator, isolationist and reformist, but I'm not sure he really stands out enough to be here.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Next to Teddy Roosevelt and possibly Robert LaFollette Sr., most responsible for the enaction of early 20th century progressive reforms, particularly initiative and referendum. How did Awnald become governor of California? Because of a process enacted by Hiram Johnson. _pbp 19:34, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Frank B. Kellogg  5

Responsible for the Kellogg–Briand Pact  5, but doesn't really seem that vital in his own right aside from that.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. He DID win a Nobel Peace Prize for that diplomacy _pbp 19:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

   We already removed several articles listed under rebels and actvisists who were there solely for being Nobel Prize winners. Iostn (talk) 21:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Stephen Mather  5

First director of the National Park Service (not a VA). Really doesn't seem to be much here other than that, and with only 7 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Idiosincrático (talk) 02:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• I'm neutral on this one. He was extremely important to U.S. National Parks, but I'm not quite sure if that is enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Remove Thomas Brackett Reed  5

Responsible for significantly increasing the power of the Speaker of the House of Representatives, but again the global relevance of that seems rather dubious.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. LostN already said everything that needs to be said. When the Speakership is at its most powerful (under Joe Cannon and Tom Reed), the Speaker is as powerful as the President, especially if the Speaker is of a different political party. _pbp 19:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Thurlow Weed  5

His highest elected office was only the New York State Assembly. He is only listed here presumably for serving as an advisor to other more prominent politicians.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 16:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 19:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:21, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Being important to a few presidential nominations does not make this guy vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:46, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
6. Idiosincrático (talk) 02:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Military personnel alterations

Move Julius Maada Bio  5 to politicians and leaders

Briefly led a transitional military government in 1996, before returning to (electoral) politics and becoming elected president in 2018. Definitely only really seems notable as a politician.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Sebhat Ephrem  5

If he was vital, then he should be under politicians. But even so, there's very little here to assert vitality.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Fritz Loots  5

Presumably included for founding the South African Special Forces - which isn't a VA. There's nothing else here that indicates vitality.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:41, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Samora Machel  5 to politicians and leader

This entry was the original reason I made these proposals - the founding president of Mozambique, who served for over ten years, is listed here for his involvement in the Mozambican War of Independence  5. It seems fairly obvious he is much more well-known as a national "founding father" than a soldier or general.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:41, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Joseph Saidu Momoh  5 to politicians and leaders

President of Sierra Leone for six and a half years.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Valentine Strasser  5 to politicians and leaders

Head of state of Sierra Leone for four years.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Pedro Eugenio Aramburu  5 to politicians and leaders

De facto president of Argentina for 2.5 years, and only really known for that.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Ayub Khan (Emir of Afghanistan)  5 to politicians and leaders

Emir of Afghanistan, not much else to say. He is well-known for leading Afghanistan's troops during the Second Anglo-Afghan War at the same time, but I don't think that supersedes him being Emir.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Prabowo Subianto  5 to politicians and leaders

Has been one of Indonesia's most prominent politicians since the late 2000s, and is currently president-elect.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Philippe Leclerc de Hauteclocque

One of the most important military leaders of the French resistance

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Carlo Ancelotti

One of the greatest managers of all time. Interstellarity (talk) 22:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 22:14, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Ancelotti is the most decorated UCL manager and has been highly regarded for over a decade. Idiosincrático (talk) 22:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. Plus he is also one of the coolest men of all time. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Remove Ah Mekat Tutul Xiu  5

Created about ten years ago, this page has not expanded further than a single paragraph. Spanish version is equally pretty bare.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
2. It could be worth adding the League of Mayapan that he founded, but he does not seem vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Tim Minchin  5

Minchin is of moderate notability as a comedian in Australia at best. I can't see how he is vital at this level. Gizza (talk) 00:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nom. Gizza (talk) 00:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 17:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Langdarma  5

I got to be honest, I think he is only on here to help fill up the military personnel section back when certain sections had quotas. I just moved him to the leaders page because there is not a single military campaign anywhere in his article, and even still this guy was only king for a year.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Opppose

Discuss

Add Julia Domna

She was a very influential empress of the Roman Empire. She had a lot of power and influence, especially during the reign of her son Caracalla  5. She acted as a mediator between Caracalla and her other son Geta, was influential before them as their father's wife, and remained influential after Caracalla killed Geta. The removal of Geta and several other short-lived emperors from this list should make room to add her.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:23, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:44, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Pharaoh removals

Unlike the former list of Roman emperors or British PMs, we do not list every pharaoh, but some of the ones we do list are definitely not vital. I have identified four below that can be removed.

Remove Mentuhotep I  5

Only important for starting a dynasty, and historians are not even sure that he existed. Achaemenes, a similar case, has been removed already.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Idiosincrático (talk) 03:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Ramesses I  5

At least this guy is known to exist, but his reign was short and he did not do anything.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Idiosincrático (talk) 03:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Twosret  5

She only lasted two years, and it does not seem like she did anything important during those two years.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Idiosincrático (talk) 03:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Shoshenq II  5

He only reigned two years, and it does not seem like anything about that reign is known. We don't even know who his parents were.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:41, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Idiosincrático (talk) 03:01, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:46, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Sam Zolotow  5

I expanded the critic section title under the writers and journalists page a while back chiefly because of this guy, and I would like to shorten it back to just critics. All this guy did was report on Broadway box office returns.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:52, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Not seeing any form of vitality. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad cultural significance. starship.paint (RUN) 12:51, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
4. I'm not even sure he'd be V7 material, much less V6 or V5 Kevinishere15 (talk) 01:00, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Harry Statham  5 and Phil McSpadden  5

Relatively obscure sports coaches.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
2. 0 interwikis both. starship.paint (RUN) 14:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Jock McHale  5 and James E. Fitzsimmons  5

Relatively obscure sports coaches.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
2. 0 interwikis and 3 interwikis. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 14:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Xu Ling

I've been scanning through the poets section lately, and while they are a lot of stubs, most of them look like they are at least of decent quality in the poets' native language. The same can't be said for him, whose Chinese Wikipedia article is also pretty bare.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
2. 4 interwikis. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 14:41, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Muqtada al-Sadr to Lv 5. activists

For awhile during the Iraq War era, seemed like you'd turn on the radio or TV and you'd always hear what "forces loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr were up to. 44 interwikis. Could also be added under military or religion _pbp 21:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 21:26, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
2. I was going to say he should be under politicians, but it seems he never held any office, surprisingly. Iostn (talk) 21:19, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Move the troubadours, trouvères, and Minnesägner to musicians

I feel like these guys should be listed under musicians. Unlike the Greek lyricists like Sappho, we do have some of the original music that their poems were set to. (Admittedly, it's a small "some"—only about 12% according to the troubadours page—and I don't think the people I'm about to request to be moved are among those whose musical compositions survived.) However, I don't know where exactly they should be placed. I personally lean towards putting them under Western art music (either under Medieval and Renaissance composers, or even a new section like how ragtime or soundtrack composers have their own list) but I'm fine putting them in the songwriters section with Carl Michael Bellman and Stephen Foster.

Here are the people I want to move, plus two more that I'm just throwing in because they're either a troubadour, trouvère, or a Minnesinger:

1. Bertran de Born  5 (troubadour)
2. Chrétien de Troyes  4 (trovère; personally his chivalric romances firmly keeps him in the writers page)
3. Arnaut Daniel  5 (troubadour)
4. Wolfram von Eschenbach  5 (Minnesigner; he seems more important as a poet in general)
5. Rutebeuf  5 (trovère)
6. Tannhäuser  5 (Minnesigner)
7. William IX, Duke of Aquitaine  5 (troubadour)

Under Western art music (Medieval and Renaissance)

1. Support (except for Chrétien and von Eschenbach). SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Support (except for Chrétien and von Eschenbach). Makkool (talk) 11:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Under Western art music (new section)

Under songwriters

Keep under poets

Discuss

1. Chretien is Level 4, so moving him should be decided on the Level 4 talk page. Makkool (talk) 11:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Remove Gillebríghde Albanach

Another guy whose article amounts to two paragraphs.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:03, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 19:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
4. No argument for vitality is present in the article. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Guillaume de Lorris

Like Xu Ling, bare English article, and bare French article.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Roman de la Rose  5 is already listed. The Blue Rider 20:21, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

   We also have Jean de Meun  5, whose article is in a much better state comparatively. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

3. Makkool (talk) 20:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Anton Pannekoek

Managed to be a major figure both in astronomy and Marxist theory, I think he could go in either section in terms of position,

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 21:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
2. --Thi (talk) 13:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Fang (alchemist)

Not only is her page consists of four short paragraphs, she doesn't even have a Chinese article.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Callinicus of Heliopolis

One. This man has only one paragraph.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
2. The only thing he is known for is inventing Greek fire  5. He does not need to be listed unless there is secretly a good argument for vitality that is missing from the article. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:34, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Master Geng

She does not have a Chinese article.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:12, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Leochares

Page's pretty bare.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:46, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Callicrates and Ictinus

I don't like the argument of limiting vital status on an article because we already made another article vital, especially when the other article is a level 4 or higher, but for the architects of the Parthenon  4… yeah just having the temple is enough. More importantly their articles are pretty bare, even in different languages.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:01, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Zhang Zhi (calligrapher)

Another stub, even in Chinese Wikipedia.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:03, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Jang Seung-eop

Same thing, just replace Chinese with Korean.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Manuel Chrysaphes

Same as my previous proposals today.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Patnam Subramania Iyer

Another bare article that I don't think is ever going to escape stub-status.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:10, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Tanburi Büyük Osman Bey

This guy has no article on Turkish Wikipedia. In fact, this guy doesn't have an article on ANY Wikipedia besides ours. Which is a shame, because his article does suggests that he is somewhat vital.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:29, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Dong Xiwen

Same thing as usual. Both English and Chinese articles are pretty bleh. I would propose swapping him for his painting The Founding Ceremony of the Nation, but I'm not entirely sure how vital that actually is.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove the stub-rated critics

Now that this project got rid of quotas, I think it's safe to say some of these sections have way too many people, the critics section in the journalist page being one of them. For now, I'm proposing to get rid of the stubs, which are:

1. Jon Caramanica  5
2. Whitwell Elwin  5
3. Emily Genauer  5
4. Paul Hume (music critic)  5
5. Cub Koda  5
6. Ashton Stevens  5

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. They lack broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

More entertainer removal proposals

Remove Marie-Thérèse de Subligny  5

I appreciate that the Dancers section extends far in history but even her French-language article is quite short. The English version has been up since 2006 and is only one paragraph.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Antoine Pitrot  5

Same as above. Article has been up since 2008 and is only two short paragraphs.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Harry Rickards  5

British-Australian vaudeville artist. Relatively obscure figure. 2 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Kreskin  5

1970s TV mentalist.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Gene Rayburn  5

“He is best known as the host of various editions of the American television game show Match Game for over two decades.”

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Bob Vila  5

“American home improvement television show host known for This Old House (1979–1989), Bob Vila's Home Again (1990–2005), and Bob Vila (2005–2007)." 

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Lacks broad appeal. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Roger Howarth  5

4 Interwikis, very low for an American actor born in 1968.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove María Elena Velasco  5

Known for portraying La India María, a character based on indigenous Mexican women. Not well known outside of Mexico and it would be an understatement to say the character has aged poorly.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Kyosen Ōhashi  5

There is no mention of his activities as an enternainer. The Japanese-language article is longer but probably doesn’t make the cut.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Léonin

Another case of "this article is never going to improve".

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:51, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:43, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:49, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Smokey Robinson

For once, I’m going to make an addition proposal. We have The Miracles  5 on here, but this is definitely a case of a member being vital in their own right. Not only was he the main songwriter and producer for the group (who were called Smokey Robinson and the Miracles from 1965 to 1972), he was also the main songwriter and producer for The Temptations  5, the vice president of Motown, and he received his Hollywood Walk of Fame  5 star and Rock and Roll Hall of Fame  5 induction before the rest of the group.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:17, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss