Talk:Judea (Roman province)
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- 1 Untitled
- 2 Why did Hadrian call it Aelia Capitolina?
- 3 Queen Alexandra
- 4 Requested move
- 5 Modern historians use the term Iudaea, not Judaea, to distinguish between Roman Iudaea province and the territory of Judea proper
- 6 Judaea?
- 7 Revert date format to BC/AD
- 8 How about finally getting rid of modern political dogma?
- 9 Who ruled Jerusalem?
- 10 This Entire Article Is a Fraudulent Fabrication
- 11 Basic information missing
- 12 Ratings surprising
Someone kindly asked why I moved "Iudaea (Roman province)" to "Iudaea Province".
I wanted to bring it inline with other provinces that use this scheme, namingly Aegyptus, Achaea, Africa, Asia where the last three use "X Province, Roman Empire" current use visible at: Category:Ancient Roman provinces.
Maybe I moved some of the others as well, but I think was not the only one using this format.
This format is also used for Category:Old provinces of Japan and Category:Provinces of the Ottoman Empire. Furthermore it is used for some of the other Category:Provinces. Nevertheless some people do not like this format , you might like to engage in discussion of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (provinces). I will put Iudea on my watchlist so you also can reply here. best regards Tobias Conradi (Talk) 14:20, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I think that writing [[Iudaea (Roman province)|]] or [[Africa (Roman province)|]] is more comfortable and carries the same information than writing [[Africa Province, Roman empire]] or similar. You refer to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (provinces); I read something in that page, and I must note that there is a difference between Iudaea province and, for example, Province of Rome (the Italian one): the name of the province of Rome is "Provincia di Roma", while the name of the Judean province in the Roman Empire was "Iudaea". I propose to change the name of the Roman provinces, where it is ambiguous, with sometingh like "X (Roman province)"--Panairjdde 16:53, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The Naming convention page is just under developement. More important then looking at the italian provinces would be to regard naming scheme of other historical provinces. Another issue, should it be "Iudea (province of the Roman Empire)" or "Iudea (Roman province)". The latter obviously is much shorter. I think Africa (Roman province) does carry a little bit less information as Africa Province, Roman Empire as the latter directly mentions the encompassing entity. That's the logic of the scheme, if there are two things X add the entity type e.g. X District, X Province, X County. If there are two "X Province" add an encompassing entity. --- Ups, I found none of the province seem to need the encompassing entity. I will go move them all from "X Province, Roman Empire" to "X Province", because now it gives the impression there would be more "X Province". Tobias Conradi (Talk) 21:32, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- done. can you live with this solution for a while? I still did not reply to your point that the name was "Iudea" and not "provincae di Iudea". Well, that's right. A lot of things are out there that are called "wilaya X" or "X oblast". These entities have the province term inside them. So use of "X Province" / "X province" is fine. In articles about the Roman Empire I saw several times usage of the wording "X province". If it is ok in text maybe it can be ok in title? I am not sure about this text->title logic. I will address this all in the naming convention. Hopefully we find a good solution for all the maybe 2000 provinces and the million of other subdivisions. If done I post a comment on Talk:Roman province. maybe you can wait with move for let's say 30 days? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 22:08, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- "Iudea Province" is not good English. It needs to be something different.
- It's perfectly good English.
- Also, why "Iudea"? The Romans themselves Latinised the Greek "Ioudaia" into "Judaea" (which would be fine) with an alternative spelling "Iudaea". Classical historians tend to use "Judaea": why don't we here?
- The J wasn't invented till the middle ages. It was used to distinquish consonantal i (y) from i the vowel. But it didn't exist prior to the middle ages. IUDAEA is the original spelling, Judaea and Judea are alternates. Also, Iudaea draws a distinction from earlier Judah and later Syria-Palestine.
- And would it not make more sense to the reader to have a single article for the province from the Roman conquest to the Arab conquest, instead of dividing it into two, this one and Syria Palaestina?
Mark O'Sullivan 10:46, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
- No, due to the length limit, it's better to divide. There are significant differences between Iudea and Syria-Palestine.
Why did Hadrian call it Aelia Capitolina?
The book on my lap is Historians History of the World (1926) is not the most writes "The founding of the new colony of Aelia Capitolina on the ruins of Jerusalem ... brought about a terrible Jewish revolt..." If it was the cause of the revolt it can't have been done as a punishment - or am I missing something. (The banning of Jews from the new city would have been a response to the revolt.) I'll check tomorrow for something more up to date but please expand as to why you think the name was hit upon as a result of the revolt rather than how it was planned before hand.Dejvid 22:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
- It seems your question is closer related to Aelia Capitolina than this article. In short, in circa 130 CE Hadrian decided to establish a pagan temple on the ruins of the Jewish Temple, rebuild the holiest Jewish city as a pagan polis, then he ploughed up the Temple and prohibited brit milah. These religious offenses provoked Bar Kokhba's revolt. After quashing it, he followed up with his plans and much more. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 00:31, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
"This was one of the few governed by a knight of the equestrian order, not a former consul or praetor of senatorial rank, because its revenue was of little importance to the Roman treasury and the region was pacified."
This is incorrect, Iudaea was under direct rule by Rome because it was a critical connection to the bread basket of Egypt and against Parthia.
And obviously it wasn't pacified till later.
- Hang on here. Until Hadrian's reorganization, Judaea was not a province in its own right, but a sub-province or prefecture of Syria. Pilate etc. didn't report directly to Rome, but to Antioch. That's why Judaea's prefects (later procurators) were equestrians- they weren't gubernators at all, but 'district administrators.'
- As for being pacified- well, up until the First Revolt there wasn't even a legion stationed in Judaea, just a vexillation (prob a reinforced cohort) at Caesarea, plus a small garrison at the Antonia and perhaps a few other large towns. Solicitr (talk) 04:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Modern historians use the term Iudaea, not Judaea, to distinguish between Roman Iudaea province and the territory of Judea proper
H.H. Ben-Sasson, A History of the Jewish People, Harvard University Press, 1976, ISBN 0674397312, page 246: "When Archelaus was deposed from the ethnarchy in 6 CE, Judea proper, Samaria and Idumea were converted into a Roman province under the name Iudaea."
Why does this article use the spelling Judaea for the Roman province? That's not the spelling used by most modern historians. Instead, Iudaea is used, as distinct from Judea proper. Iudaea was not Judea, instead it was an amalgamation of Judea, Samaria, and Idumea. Judaea is ambiguous, it could stand for Judea proper or the Roman Iudaea province.
H.H. Ben-Sasson, A History of the Jewish People, Harvard University Press, 1976, ISBN 0-674-39731-2, page 246: "When Archelaus was deposed from the ethnarchy in AD 6, Judea proper, Samaria and Idumea were converted into a Roman province under the name Iudaea."
- You only mention a single book, written in 1976, to "prove" your point. That's poor evidence.
- Adrian Goldsworthy, in his book 'the complete Roman Army', written in 2003, only uses 'Judaea'. He also uses 'Judaea' in 'In the name of Rome' written in 2003. 'The enemies of Rome' written in 2004 by Philip Matyszak uses 'Judaea'. 'The twelve Caesars', reprinted in 2000, uses 'Judaea'. Need I go on? Flamarande (talk) 10:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- Judaea may be a common spelling, but modern historians use the spelling Iudaea to avoid confusion with Judea. 36,000 Google books results for "Iudaea". 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- LOL, your 36,000 (actualy 35,800) are a poor second to 453,000 results for Judaea (see here). Flamarande (talk) 20:29, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- The most common name is what's important. The confusion is avoided by the disambiguator (Roman province). --JaGatalk 18:06, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- Is Judaea the most common spelling for the Roman province? 18.104.22.168 (talk) 18:23, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- For example, the Persian province is called Yehud Medinata, not Judaea (Persian province). The biblical kingdom is called Kingdom of Judah, not Judaea (Biblical kingdom). Hasmonean kingdom, not Judaea (Hasmonean). Syria Palaestina, not Judaea (Roman province after 135). 22.214.171.124 (talk) 18:59, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
- Judaea may be a common spelling, but modern historians use the spelling Iudaea to avoid confusion with Judea. 36,000 Google books results for "Iudaea". 126.96.36.199 (talk) 17:15, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Even if wikipedia keeps the special wikipedia construction "Judaea (Roman province)", you still need to explain the use of "Iudaea" in technical references. Or do as User:JaGa suggests and censor those references from wikipedia. Hey, if it's not in wikipedia, it doesn't exist, right? 188.8.131.52 (talk) 21:41, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
An attempted voice of calmness
Before the 17th-century, I J were were decorative variants of the same letter (the Roman alphabet ran ABCDEFGHIKLMNOPQRSTVXYZ), so Iudaea vs. Judaea is not too deeply meaningful (a mere matter of convention). "Yehud" is different, because it's a transcription of the Persian Imperial Aramaic name יהד directly into English (not going through Latin as an intermediary). AnonMoos (talk) 19:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Not to be pedantic, but G was invented by Spurius Carvilius Ruga as a modification of C, and X, Y and Z were borrowed from the Greek alphabet to transliterate Greek words into Latin. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 07:38, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Revert date format to BC/AD
Seems that this is another article where the date format was changed from BC/AD to BCE/CE without any discussion or substantial reason being discussed on the talk page thus violating WP:ERA. Thus I propose the reversion of the date formats to the former if there are no objections.(unsigned)
- Check the history and you will see that this article was predominately BCE/CE from the start, and stable with BCE/CE for more than five years (except for brief lapses, soon reverted). There is no justification for changing it. Hertz1888 (talk) 18:23, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
- Personally it is a silly convention, worse than what it replaced. Granted no one knows if he ever existed but if he did the error of birth year is no more than seven years by the Gospel references to historical events. If one assumes "Christian Era" coincides with birth then it is no better. However if going by the Gospels the CE could not have started before the Resurrection. Going by real history it is not reasonable to date it prior to Constantine declaring it the official religion of the empire. TWIIWT (talk) 09:23, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
- So we can say that this has been discussed, leave it BCE/CE, per Hertz1888 and because we're not some bastion of cultural preservation. Also, TWIIWT, CE means "common era." I don't know whether to point out that calling it the "Christian era" is ill-researched or dishonest, but your strawman argument is wrong from the start. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
How about finally getting rid of modern political dogma?
This statement is absurd from every context and every ancient source.
Following the suppression of Bar Kokhba's revolt, the emperor Hadrian changed the name of the province to Syria Palaestina and Jerusalem became Aelia Capitolina in order to humiliate the Jewish population by attempting to erase their historical ties to the region.
He REVERTED the name to its original name as the wiki article on Syria-Palestine makes clear. The idea of humiliation is an invention without foundation. Historical ties to the region is modern Zionism.
In that time from the term "Jewish" meant only people of Judea as the historian Josephus says. It did not mean a religion nor have any particular connection to the mythology of the Septuagint. Jerusalem was only the capitol of the city state of Judea at that time. In those days the only loyalties found in the historical record are to cities not to land. It is an anachronism to talk about people in the past as though they had modern loyalties. TWIIWT (talk) 10:46, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, that's nonsense -- before ca. 135 A.D., the word Palaestina (Latin) / Παλαιστινη (Greek) often tended to refer to the coastal plain (i.e. old "Philistia"), and it seems to have been those who were remote from the area, or knew little about it who most often extended the meaning of the term to cover inland hilly areas such as Judea and Galilee. Pausanias refers to Judea as being "above" Palestine, not "in" it -- you can see the exact Greek words huper tês Palaistinês υπερ της Παλαιστινης "above Palaistine" for yourself at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0159%3Abook%3D10%3Achapter%3D12%3Asection%3D9 . And you seem to be a little confused about the relationship between the Septuagint and the original Hebrew/Aramaic text... AnonMoos (talk) 14:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Who ruled Jerusalem?
not Jerusalem which had been the capital for King David, King Hezekiah, King Josiah,
These king legends are found only in the Septuagint and have no basis in either historical or archaeological evidence. Absent evidence or even footnote the mention is superfluous at best. Including them is only of modern religious and political interest.
"If Solomon existed [and there is no evidence he did exist] he was no more than a hilltop warlord."
-- Prof. Israel Finkelstein
- Whatever -- this article is not the place to debate issues of Biblical Minimalism or Temple denialism, or to discuss what may or may not have happened 800 years or more before the Roman province of Judaea came into existence, and your claims about the Septuagint are rather nonsensical. Suffice it to say that religious Jews of Roman times (excluding Samaritans) unanimously believed that Jerusalem was the city of David... AnonMoos (talk) 14:20, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
This Entire Article Is a Fraudulent Fabrication
This entire article is a fraudulent fabrication of Israeli nationalist propaganda. What the article is calling the Roman Province of Judaea was the Roman Province of Palestine. The Roman puppet state of the Kingdom of Judaea was a small and varying territory within Roman Palestine. The map "Judaea Province in the First Century" is part of the fabrication, with a large, borderless "Judaea" label floating in the middle of Roman Palestine. This is why we have the word "Palestine". This is why it was the British Mandate in Palestine. It is shocking that this is up on Wikipedia. Though we note the famous Palestinian Talmud has also been renamed the "Jerusalem Talmud" in Wikipedia (despite being written in the Galilee region of Roman Palestine and not in Jerusalem.) -- 08:57, 27 December 2012 220.127.116.11
- Whatever, dude -- it was known as Judaea until about 135 A.D., when Judaea was renamed Palaestina by the emperor Hadrian for the specific purpose of spiting the Jews in the aftermath of the Second Jewish revolt. Before 135 A.D., the word Palaestina most often meant "Philistia" (i.e. the southern coastal plain or extended Gaza strip area). You need to learn some real history... AnonMoos (talk) 20:57, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- I mean, if you look at Timeline of the name Palestine you'll see that there's evidence of various forms of "Palestine" being used to refer to the entire Levantine coastal region as early as 450 BCE. So it's not that the above comment is entirely without factual merit. The question is whether the Roman province as a political entity was ever called "Palestina" before it was called "Iudaea". Considering that Hasmonean Judah was the predecessor state, it makes sense that the province would have been called "Iudaea" from the beginning. But that doesn't mean that "Palestina" was an invention of the Romans. Ibadibam (talk) 01:56, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
- If you look at Talk:Timeline of the name Palestine, I've been raising issues with some of the timeline. Herodotus is almost useless, since he appears to have gotten his information from coastal traders, and knew almost nothing about inland areas in that part of the world (he was certainly dismally ignorant about Jews). Before 135 A.D., those who knew most about the area tended to use Palaistinē mainly to refer to "Philistia" (i.e. the southern coastal plain). Pausanias certainly uses the word that way. In any case, the name of the early Roman province was Judaea (or IVDAEA in the spelling of the time)... AnonMoos (talk) 04:57, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
- P.S. The Romans didn't "invent" the term Palestine as such, but there was a certain element of arbitrariness in the emperor Hadrian seizing upon what until then had been a somewhat secondary (arguably loose and sloppy) meaning of Palaistine/Palaestina, and elevating it by imperial decree to be official Roman government administrative terminology. Hadrian could have just as easily renamed the province of Judaea after Antinous, in which case we would be speaking of "Antinoia" today... AnonMoos (talk) 09:37, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
- That makes sense. Herodotus and other Greeks would have had contact with Sea Peoples prior to any contact with the Hebrews in the interior, so they would have used a name for the region taught them by that population. Because of that misconception, the Greeks and Romans probably used the name "Palestine" quite frequently to refer to that region, and from there it's probably reasonable to assume that many Romans would have considered Judea a province within a broader, unofficial region they called "Palestine". The significance to the Roman people of the renaming of the province from "Judea" to "Palestine" is lost to us today. Although there are a number of plausible theories that it was politically motivated, we can't put ourselves in a second-century perspective with full certainty.
- This reminds me of a number of other similar situations. Siberia was originally a khanate north of present-day Kazakhstan, but the Russians used this name to apply to regions to the east as they conquered them. California was originally the point at the southern end of the Baja California peninsula, but eventually came to refer to a vast region of western North America, in the minds of the Spaniards. No place owns a name, nor does a name own a place. A placename signifies no earthly boundaries, but boundaries in the mind of the one who uses it. So Palestine surely meant different things to different people, even then. I'd say it's neither true that the existence of a Roman province named Judea was a "fraudulent fabrication", as per the anon poster above, nor that the renaming of it was, from the Roman point of view, entirely arbitrary, as you suggest. Ibadibam (talk) 03:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Basic information missing
First, the spread between Start, B, & C is surprisingly wide. Should these ratings be reviewed?
Second, it's surprising that the importance of this article is rated "Mid" by WikiProjects Christianity, Judaism, and Jewish history. Perhaps there are overlapping articles of greater importance? (I think the hyperlink format of Wikipedia, plus the fragmentation into short articles makes it clumsy to answer a question like this.) If not, I don't see how a rating less than "High" could be justified, based on its ties to the modern world. Wcmead3 (talk) 23:12, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
- The province of Judaea is kind of a background administrative framework to events in the history of Christianity and Judaism, not really something religiously important in itself, so "Mid" makes more sense than "High". Maybe it should be "High" for the Jewish history project... AnonMoos (talk) 07:34, 19 July 2014 (UTC)