Talk:Transsexual

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Psychological treatment

i velive this section rarely contains information about the actuall process. It would be great to have some references from a medical aspect here. besides that, great article! 88.73.249.4 (talk) 23:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC) aep

Diagnosis

This section is unclear. If you use the medical model of diagnosis, as a minimum I would recommend giving some "gold standards" for diagnosis, with statements such as "People with HBS must have..." or "People who ... definitely do not have Harry Benjamin Syndrome" I realize that this is difficult if there is no common anatomic, genetic, or biochemical characteristics, or are there? There is an assertion that the brains of Harry Bejamin Syndrome individuals are different. Can you provide referrences to what these differences are, with PMID numbers?75.5.228.202 22:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

SusannaBoudrie: "The psycho-patologization of transsexualism by APA and WHO (ICD10) is unfounded. The condition is somatic, but (still) not diagnosable in live humans. Hence even their own manuals make this an auto-diagnose; not validated in itself, only validated not being another (sic!) mental disorder." SusannaBoudrie (talk) 04:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voyagerfan5761 (talk • contribs)

SusannaBoudrie: "According to numerous researchers transsexualism is hard-wired in the brain during the development of the hypothalamus. People with Transsexualism men and women desire to become men and women in all respects, by physical alterations of their sexual gonads sexual reassignment surgery and by Hormone replacement therapy. The entire process of switching from one sex to the other is referred to as transition, and usually takes several years. This treatment resolves the transsexualism, and post-treatment we are talking about Men-born with-transsexualism [MBT] and Women-born with-Transsexualism [WBT]" SusannaBoudrie (talk) 04:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the idea that transexualism is based on hypothalamus structure is very shaky at this point; it's based on three preliminary studies which looked at a very small number of male-to-female transexuals only. It's legitimate and intriguing research, but absolutely not conclusive and absolutely not "numerous researchers". --71.108.187.136 (talk) 22:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Adding Smith vs. City of Salem to Employment issues sections

Recently, the court case of Smith vs. Salem took place in the sixth circuit court. This case used a supreme court ruling to extend the definition of sex into the realm of gender, and with it include transgender as a protected class. I think this has merit for inclusion in the employment issues section. What do you think? Link to the opinion:[1]. This is another useful document: [2] LexieM 01:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

it's an interesting read, and is actually already covered by Legal aspects of transsexualism. Reading the brief, it does not actually seem as if they have extended any recognition to transsexuals as their target gender, but rather that discriminating against someone for not following the stereotypes provided for their gender is inappropriate, and the document refers to Smith throughout as a "male", albeit as an identified "transsexual", and "medically diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder". Now, what this does do is create a rock and a hard place for employers (who are subject to Title VII) regarding dismissing a transsexual. The employer cannot dismiss a transsexual as their original gender for expressing themselves as their gender of identity, but it's pretty certain that they wouldn't be able to dismiss a transsexual as their gender of identity, because if they had the job before, then they were qualified for the job, and the only thing that has changed is their sex. Thus, if a employer were to attempt to dismiss them simply for assuming the new gender, they would be by definition firing someone based on their sex. So, I rather see this decision as a boon to transgendered people who are not intending on altering their legal gender, and as protection for transgendered people who are intending on changing their legal gender, but have yet to do so. In many cases though, the courts rulings on what a person's legal gender is can vary from state to state, from courthouse to courthouse and from judge to judge. --Puellanivis 18:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The Legal aspects of transsexualism article should be liked to in the Employment Issues section as it contains much more information. But do you think we should make specific reference to Smith vs. Salem in this article because of its importance as the only decision on the US federal level that possibly offers protection? LexieM 01:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

That sounds certainly reasonable. Please feel free to work up a short mention of the protection that it offers us, and then either post it here, or post it into the article. You can leave it with "for more information see Legal aspects of transsexualism" or something like that. I think it would certainly be helpful information. --Puellanivis 07:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Human Rights Law in Britain that were pivitol indefining transsexual right in Britain

There were two defining moments in the development of the Human Rights of British transsexual’s that are overlooked in a Wiki that is being written by Americans for the enlightenment of Americans about the United States.

A, D & G v N.W.Lancs Health Authority 1999. The litigants challenged the practice within the National Health Service of Health Authorities funding only psychotherapy but not surgery. The court ruled against N.W.Lancs Health Authority with as a consequence the state health care system must fund gender reassignment surgery. This case is now core study for students studying health law in British universities.

Gender Recognition Act (2005) that allows transsexual’s to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate. This permits the recipient to apply for a new birth certificate issued in their preferred gender and dated from their birth and to marry a member of the opposite gender

Claire Eastwood — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.175.137 (talk) 14:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

the "Coming Out" Section

A noticable problem with the current page is the "Coming Out" section, which is currently empty. Although there is already a page on coming out it deals only briefly with transsexuals.

I suggest this section include:

• Coming out Process
• Stages of Coming out
  • To Health Care Proffessionals
  • To Family
  • To Friends / Socially
  • To employers / At work
• Legal steps in coming out
  • Changing name
  • Changing identity documents
  • Legal recognition

Although now that i look at my own list, it may require its own article, with references to transsexualism, Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism, and external references.

Lwollert 11:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

History of transsexuality

Is there any interest in making a section on the ancient and recent history of transsexuality? I.E.

• Certain ancient greecian temples where men dressed and acted exclusively as women
• Eunuch culture and transsexuality
• Berdache culture in North america
• Harry Benjamin and his contribution to the modern treatment and diagnosis of transsexuals
• the near-infamous Christine Jorgensen who brought transsexualism to popular cultre in the united states
• Renée Richards' challenge against United States Tennis Association in 1976, which helped bring about anti-discrimination rulings, and introduced transsexual women into sport
• The recent ruling, pre-Athens Olympics, by the IOC that transsexuals could compete in the olympics
• the various other legal milestones in regards to marriage, adoption, and the like.

Cheers, Lwollert 02:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Legal milestones may be more appropriate for the Legal aspects of transsexualism. As far as the Olympics is concerned, the full accurate history should be given that they attempted to identify gender based on genetics, and thus invalidated a number of women who are XY female (not just transsexuals). The recent ruling that changed this was that a woman would be allowed to compete in the women's competitions as long as her hormone levels were feminine, and not masculine, thus determining that "doping" by internal production of steroids in the female competitions is against the rules. This allows transsexuals essentially as a side-effect to allowing intersexed females, but it is not sufficient for a person to simply identify as transexual, they need to be physically appropriate to the competition. --Puellanivis 02:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough; Any comments on the other suggestions, though?

Link for sport in the UK; Includes IOC regulations [3]. Interestingly, www.olympic.org doesn't have the guidelines set out there, merely an explanatory statement. Apparently it's been called the "Stockholm Consensus". And although the consideration was made in light of the review of Gender testing procedures, the consensus on transsexuals took place four years after the scrapping of the old tests [4] and is specifically in regards to transsexuals.

Cheers, Lwollert 00:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Verification - Terminology

The term was first published in an 1907 medical journal an meant cross-sexed: http://research.cristanwilliams.com/2012/02/10/1907-transsexual-cross-sexed/

... and again in a 1908 version of the same medical journal referring to cross-sexual (sexuality): http://research.cristanwilliams.com/2012/02/10/1908-trans-sexual-cross-sex/

"Trans-sexed" (a variant of transsexual)was first used in 1915 to refer to trans-gender expression: http://research.cristanwilliams.com/2012/02/10/1915-trans-sexed/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.8.34.255 (talk) 06:23, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

______

My proposition is that the following section from "Terminology" should be changed.

"Harry Benjamin agreed with German sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld [2]that transsexuals were a form of neurological intersex. [3]Hirschfeld coined the terms the terms "Transvestite" and "Transsexual, and in 1930 supervised the first known sex reassignment surgery on Lili Elbe [4]of Denmark."

Just double-checking my facts, but AFAIK Hirschfield coined did not coin either "transvestite" or "transsexual" - The former Coined the term in German - "Die Transvestitien" (1910) in his seminal work on the issue, and was describing what is now known as Transsexuals. The term was translated into English and used to talk about Gender dysphoria as well as what we now know as Transvestic fetishism.

Harry Benjamin actually coined the term "Transsexual" in his work, (Benjamin, 1953) which culminated with "The Transsexual Phenomenon" in 1966. Gender Dysphoria as a term was not used until about the 1970s, and was used as a term to encompass a wide range of individuals with gender discomfort. (Fisk, 1974, Laub and Fisk, 1974)

"Gender Identity Disorder" Was a term created in the DSM-III in regards to transsexuals, and the categories were "GID/Childrem Transsexualism"; "GID/Adolescent and Adult, Non-transsexual type" and "GID/Not Otherwise Specified". Notably, this did not address Late-onset transsexualism, where patients may not have had symptoms as children. Interestingly, in the major revision of the DSM, DSM-III-R, It was placed in the category "Disorders Usually First Evident in Infancy, Childhood or Adolescence". The problem was that it got lost here, as well as the issue of adult onset explained above

In the DSM-IV-TR, the current version, GID is placed in the category of Sexual Disorders, with the subcategory of Gender Identity Disorders. This is perhaps distasteful to transsexual people, as it is right next to transvestitic fetishism, Pedophilia, Fetishism, Orgasmic, Arousal and Erection disorders, and other similar categories. The disorder names were changed to "Gender Identity Disorder in Children", "Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescents or Adults", and "Gender Identity Disorder NOS".

Additionally, Both the DSM-III and DSM-IV differentiate based on sexual attraction. In the DM-III, the terms "Homosexual", "Heterosexual", and "Asexual" were used - with quite a bit of confusion (Pauly, 1992). Currently the terms "Attracted to males", "Attracted to Females", "Attracted to Both" and "Attracted to neither" are used in the DSM-IV-TR.

References:

• American Psychiatric Association (1980) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 3rd ed. A.P.A.: Washington D.C.
• American Psychiatric Association (1987) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 3rd ed., revised A.P.A.: Washington D.C.
• Benjamin, H. (1953). Transvestism and Transsexualism. International Journal of Sexlogy, 7, 12-14
• Benjamin, H. (1966). The Transsexual Phenomenon. Julian Press: New York
• Fisk, N (1974) Gender Dysphoria Syndrome. In D. Laub & P. Gandy (Eds.) Proceedings of the Second Interdisciplinary Symposium on Gender Dysphoria Syndrome. Ann Harbour: Edwards Brothers, 7-14
• Laub, D. and Fisk, N. (1974) A rehabilitation program for gender dysphoria syndrome by surgical sex change. Plastics and reconstructive surgery, 53, 338-403
• Pauly, I. (1992) Terminology and Classification of Gender Identity Disorders. Journal od psychology & human sexuality, volume 5, number 4, 1992

Cheers, Lwollert 21:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Ehipassiko is commenting here on the statement above that "Harry Benjamin actually coined the term "Transsexual" in his work..." in Lwollert's comment. I have moved this comment from the middle in order to prevent Talk from getting muddled up... - bonze blayk (talk) 20:02, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

No, he didn't. The term "transsexual" had been around for around half a century by the time Benjamin repurposed it... and even then, he used it in an umbrella sense so that a Type 5 True Transsexual didn't even need to have genital surgery. Dr. Paul Walker of the Galveston Gender Treatment Clinic was the first to re-repurpose the term to mean what we currently take to mean "transsexual" in the 1979 edition of the HBIGDA SOC V 1:

4.3.1. Principle 7. The psychiatric/psychologic recommendation for hormonal and/or surgical sex-reassignment should, in part, be based upon an evaluation of how well the patient fits the diagnostic criteria for transsexualism as listed in the DSM-III (proposed) category 302.5X to wit:l

1. Persistent sense of discomfort and inappropriateness about one’s anatomic sex.
2. Persistent wish to be rid of one’s own genitals and to live as a member of the other sex.
3. The disturbance has been continuous (not limited to periods of stress) for at least two years.
4. Absence of physical intersex or genetic abnormality.
5. The disturbance is not symptomatic of another mental disorder, such as Schizophrenia.

This definition of transsexualism is herein interpreted not to exclude persons who meet the above criteria but who other­wise may, on the basis of their past behavioral histories, be conceptualized and classified as transvestites and/or effeminate male homosexuals or masculine female homosexuals.

For more, see: http://research.cristanwilliams.com/2012/02/21/hbidga-wpath-soc-i/

Benjamin's Type 4 Transsexual didn't even need to take HRT.

Coinage myths tend to be just that... myths. The lexical compound existed years (in fact, since the 1850s) before it was used to mean trans issues and before the trans+sex lexical compound was used by any sexologist, an unknown writer in a community newspaper used the lexical compound to refer to non-transsexual transgender people in 1915. There was a PROCESS which led to the term meaning what it means today, but it can't be factually asserted that any one single person "coined" the trans+sex lexical compound. --Ehipassiko (talk) 19:29, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Ehipassiko, would you please place your comments below those of previous comments, and just note which part of the prior comment you're responding to? Thank you! - bonzie anne

Also, my understanding of the evolution of the term "transsexual" is that the psychiatrist David Oliver Cauldwell popularized it in the 50's... personally, I don't place a lot of stress on etymology, though I strongly agree that whatever discussions there are on the origins of terminology in Wikipedia should be accurate... - thank!, bonze blayk (talk) 20:02, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

An important point...

I would like to see some reference to the viewpoint brought up by, for example, Kate Bornstein in "Gender Outlaw" which is that transsexual people may not always feel the necessity for sex reassignment operations (especially, conscious of their possible complications and general uncertainty of the outcome) or indeed strongly dislike their body/genitals (except perhaps for the reason that society does not accept their body to be of the sex or gender that they feel they represent). She proposes the division to pre- and postoperative transsexuals be given up. English is not my first language and I am not certain I know enough on the topic to do this myself, but I'm hoping perhaps there is someone else interested in this aspect and willing to contribute? Shadowcrow 20:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm.... Kate bornstein is an interesting writer, and she does have some strong opinions.

Part of her argument is that there should be no male/female gender division, and that transsexuals are giving into medical and social structures when they ascribe to the medical process.

The problem is, to subscribe to the medical process, and be diagnosed as transsexuals, they need to have strong cross-gender identification, not just "agender" identification - and additionally, they have to desire surgery, else they don't fit the medical defenition of transsexualism (as in the DSM-IV-TR or ICD-10, anyway).

I think there should be a small section on this, but it does not represent the majority of transsexuals. A more appropriate place to put it would perhaps be transgender rather than transsexualism.

As a side-note, her (Kate Bornstein's} theory is quite similar (perhaps disturbingly so) to Janice Raymond's hypothesis about transsexualism. Both are strongly criticised by some, including Patrick Califia, who I've referenced on a couple of pages now.

Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 04:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe there already exists the prefix "non-op" to counter "pre-op" and "post-op". Maybe this is mostly restricted to areas where transsexuality is well accepted, like Seattle. But I've already heard it fairly commonly in use. I personally couldn't imagine being non-op... and all of my non-trans female friends probably would agree with me that I'm not "raping" their bodies as Janice Raymond would put it... to them it's entirely naturally that I'm female. I would however argue that there are transsexuals out there who this would describe, but then there are men out there who physically rape women. As with anything, categorizing any group of people and giving a generic reason for their motives, just isn't appropriate, or justified. Sorry to get on a person-ish rant here. But I really just wanted to point out that there are non-op transsexuals out there. And they receive the same treatment all of the other transsexuals do. --Puellanivis 05:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

My apologies if I left out aknowledging the non-op transsexuals - I certainly know they exist. I don't dispute that these people are transsexual, or should be labeled otherwise - instead I hoped to include them (although I seem to have failed :) ). My main point in relation to them is that they don't fit the medical definition if they don't desire surgery - but you can be non-op and still desire surgery, or non-op and not desire surgery.

Absolutely non-op individuals need and hopefully recieve medical support - usually under a slightly different diagnosis. And I support them in their right to decide how they want to live, whether or not I would make that choice in the first place.

Most of my objection was supposed to be aimed at the argument by Bornstein that anyone who wants an operation is giving in to a medical diagnosis, and all transsexuals should instead be "gender outlaws" - that none of us should want bottom surgery, and we should all be non-op. It's that that I object to and believe is a view held by a minority of transsexuals, but perhaps describes more people who are transgendered.

Sorry for any accidental offense. Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 05:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I understand better now. That makes more sense. ... Yeah, I just can't agree with that at all. I'm sorry, but I have more than just "preference" for why I want "bottom surgery". Well, first of all, it would be nice to be able to stop taking anti-androgens. Second of all, it's extremely uncomfortable for me. I know an FTM to was talking to the list about how he was very happy to be getting his top surgery done, because during the summers it caused him a great deal of discomfort to bind himself during the summer. I can typically identify with this issue, but instead of being top issues, it's bottom issues. If I'm uncomfortable with something, I'm going to get it taken care of, and I'm not going to let some ideological reasoning stop me from getting that surgery. My ideological reasons don't confront me in the shower, and on the toilet, and it doesn't rub and chafe me in the summer. I can work with the process and still seek to have issues addressed for a better process for following people. I don't expect the world to be perfect for me, but I do hope that I leave it better for those who follow than I had it. --Puellanivis 06:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Hear, Hear, Easy Access to Surgery To Eventually Reduce Chafing! (Tounge-in cheek, I agree totally.) Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 00:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

might i make the point that many people throughout this section and others are using terminology that is in fact incorrect. One prominent example:

"male/female gender division"....this is a sex division, just as "masculine/feminine and man/woman" are gender divisions

We as a community continue to elide the distinctions between sex & gender even as we depend on such distinctions to explain, indeed to make sense of, our lives. It is exactly this carelessness, bred by decades living amongst people who neither make nor understand such points, that leads to confusion amongst ourselves as to the best way to see our commonalities and create effective coalitions. It is only in understanding our diversity, I contest, that we may celebrate it. It is only in celebrating our diversity that we may bridge across the lines that divide us. To do otherwise is to set out building a bridge without determining exactly where a river's shores lie.

also, note how using "transgender" as a personal noun is much less acceptable than using "transsexual" as a personal noun. I believe that usage such as "A transsexual was having lunch right next to me!" continues and contributes to the dehumanization of transsexual people. I propose that our articles exclusively use, and advocate the exclusive use of, transsexual as an adjective. Thus, "Transsexual women have objected..." but not "transsexuals have objected."

Finally, Virginia Prince created the general concept of "transgender" as a specific counterpoint to "transsexual" because - and this is important - Prince believed transsexual people to be sick, and indeed disgusting, and wished to divorce herself from transsexual people in every way possible. Later academic communities declared, fait a compli, that transsexual people were a subcategory of transgender people. This leads the public to the obvious conclusion that when you have a "transgender" guest speaking at an event that the speaker will be an expert on, and represent transgender perspectives - including transsexual perspectives. I don't believe that this follows, nor do I believe that we should represent to the public that this is a reasonable conclusion to draw.

Finally, in the main article, the arguments against transsexual subsumption under the category of transgender are, in the main, "straw man" arguments. I will endeavor to add a reasonable articulation of the more realistic arguments without removing the others - it certainly does not hurt to disprove silly arguments, whether they are the most common and/or most powerfully made or not. But note, this has DIRECT BEARING on the discussion above about non-op transsexual people.

While there are many reasons that one could be resolved not to have any operations (the Tuskeegee fiasco points to reasons why one might mistrust the idea of allowing a surgeon to render unconscious and cut on the body of a person from a marginalized group, then there are economic issues, health issues in persons with other conditions, etc.), there is a very important distinction to be made between those people who believe that something is wrong with their bodies (no matter what they will/won't do about that problem) and people who believe that something is wrong with how society views their bodies.

Locating the problem in the somatic self is different than locating the problem in the social dynamic. It leads one to search for different solutions and use different tactics to arrive at those solutions. While in general everyone who encounters this "problem" gains a certain amount of understanding of the points of view of others who share similar problems, we are not the same, our thinking is not the same, and despite a near-universal desire for widespread social change with regard to gender, the protections we need until and changes we desire when the revolution comes are not the same.

We can have both, but only if we consider both perspectives. That will only happen if we understand that "trans-ing" sex is in fact different from "trans-ing" gender. One is not a subset of the other, but each can be a powerful ally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cripdyke (talk • contribs) 05:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC) --oops, corrected a typo when I came back to see if any1 had any responses to this lil' tidbit.

I think there is some confusion between "gender" and "sex" in these discussions. I see this more and more often in discussions about trans issues, and it's kind of distressing. As humans we do have two sexes, male and female. Gender is more fluid, and while it is partly a social construct, humans do exhibit sexual dimorphism. People who want to say we shouldn't have any gender roles are constantly trying to force this onto transgender people, and then we end up with nonsense terms like "genderqueer." But it's the sex not matching the gender that is the issue. This whole article is getting away from transsexualism and is talking about cross dressers, etc., as part of a wider "transgender umbrella" which is starting to become way too vague for many. People who identify as "transsexual" have the feeling they were born into the wrong body, as far as their assigned sex, and want to change that. It's generally very specific. There will be some medical interventions, such as HRT, and FFS, but not always SRS. This is not true of cross dressers, et al. All the rest of this "transgender" stuff has been more-or-less invented by academics over analyzing things. As to not exclude anyone, everyone is thrown into the same pot, which I do not think is helpful at all. DavidRavenMoon (talk) 15:01, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

DavidRavenMoon Please do not be insulting by calling people's identities "nonsense". Second, you are incorrect about there being two sexes: Intersex. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 15:41, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with EvergreenFir. Genderqueer is not a nonsense term, nor is agender, bigender, or any of many other gender identities. In addition to intersex people, there are also neutrois people who may wish to change their physical bodies to a null or neuter sex appearance. Funcrunch (talk) 17:59, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

The World Health Organization's Genomic resource centre states: "Intersex is defined as a congenital anomaly of the reproductive and sexual system." It's a birth defect. So that is not a normal human sexual differentiation, and many times the reproductive system is not fully developed. It's NOT a third sexual state (or incorrectly "gender"). My issue with the term "genderqueer" is that we already had terminology that fit, such as "androgyny," and because of the association of "queer" with homosexuality, since gender has nothing to do with sexual attraction. The word "queer" only adds ambiguity when used in this context. People who didn't know the correct terminology just made something up. We have a hard enough time with cisgender people thinking that trans-women are just gay men in dresses. Let's not make it easier for them. People can do what ever they want as far as how they look, or not. They can try and suppress their gender, but when they start naming it and saying this is a standard human condition, that's more out of a need for validation. We have always had people who were more gender neutral, such as tomboy girls, or effeminate men. But this does not make them transsexuals or transgender, nor does it mean we need to make up new phrases like "genderqueer" et al. Gender was always fluid. Sex is not. Sex is binary, and humans are sexually dimorphic. If this were not the case, then we would not have transgender people, would we? The "trans* community" suffers from groupthink, and these words are an indication of that. I am speaking as a transsexual and I know may others who agree with me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DavidRavenMoon (talk • contribs) 18:56, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

"Androgny" is not at all analogous to "Genderqueer". The former is a blend of masculine and feminine presentation. The latter is an umbrella term that can include anyone who does not identify as a man or a woman. This can include bigender, agender, gender-fluid, etc.

I also speak as a transsexual (FTM - I am also agender, as I separate gender from sex), and I do not police other people's labels. And I don't see how this discussion is even relevant to Wikipedia, because the term exists and people are using it whether we personally like it or think it's accurate or not. Funcrunch (talk) 01:08, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

This is getting quite off topic. DavidRavenMoon, please stop making negative comments about a class of people. This is not a forum.

Alison, would this article be covered under the Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology#Final_decision? And Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-10-16/Arbitration_report? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:23, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, this article does come under the influence of the Sexology Arb ruling - Alison ^❤ 06:48, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! I'll add the box to the top of this talk page. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:48, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment: I see DavidRavenMoon's side of the matter, and I see Funcrunch's and EvergreenFir's sides of the matter. Like I stated here, at "02:17, 7 May 2014 (UTC)" and "03:26, 7 May 2014": Intersex people are usually biologically classified as male or female (based on physical appearance and/or chromosomal makeup, such as XY female or XX male), and usually identify as male or female; it's not the usual case that an intersex person wants to be thought of as neither male nor female. Being thought of as neither male nor female is usually a third gender or genderqueer matter, though the sex and gender distinction exists and third gender/genderqueer matters are usually formulated in gender terms (boy/man; girl/woman)... ...I'll grant you that I'm not aware of science having actually identified a third sex, though intersex people and hermaphroditic non-human animals are sometimes classified as a third sex (by being a combination of both)... ...but gender is a broader field and researchers have identified three or more genders (again, see the Third gender article).

If anyone wants me to provide WP:Reliable sources for my above statement, I can. I'll now leave you all to debate what you were debating. Flyer22 (talk) 03:58, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

• I'm basically in agreement with Flyer22 here, though I'd add that there are cases of dizygotic 'individuals' comprising both XX and XY karyotypical cells. These people generally identify as either male or female and it's exceedingly rare. You could argue that they have a strong gender identity though their sex may not be so clearly defined. While humans are sexually dimorphic, Nature has a habit of throwing exceptions into the mix, so it's not all that cut and dried - Alison ^❤ 06:48, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Well there's Norrie May-Welby and (according to that article) possibly a couple of intersex people who have been legally recognized as having a neuter or indeterminate physical sex. Not gender, sex. As far as genders, I don't think it's possible to identify a quantifiable number of those since the concept of gender is so culture-dependent, but that's my non-expert opinion; I don't know if there is a definitive authority on that subject. Funcrunch (talk) 06:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Citation dispute

There is an error in this article. In her latest interview, Renee Richards denies any regret regarding her SRS. From the Reuter's article on Feb 18 2007 (written by Belinda Goldsmith) "Richards, now 72 and without a partner, said she does not regret the sex change operation at the age of 40 -- although she might have liked to have gone through the process a bit earlier -- but she does have misgivings about her notoriety. "I made the fateful decision to go and fight the legal battle to be able to play as a woman and stay in the public eye and become this symbol," Richards, an ophthalmologist, told Reuters in an interview in her Manhattan offices. "I could have gone back to my office and just carried on with my life and the notoriety would have died down. I would have been able to resume the semblance of a normal life. I could have lived a more private life but I chose not to. "I have misgivings about that. I am nostalgic about what would have happened if I had done it the other way," said the 6-foot-2-inch tall Richards with an unmistakable air of sadness as she folds her man-sized hands in her lap." This aspect of the article should be corrected

Certainly Renee Richards is quoted in the lynn connway site as experiencing regret, and cites a newspaper article. If you read her book, Renee certainly had a lot of co-morbidities when she transitioned, including fairly severe depression.

I think if you can cite the newspaper article (a link, perhaps?) we sould definately change the article.

Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 07:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe that Dr. Richards has published a second book - I'll try and get my hands on it ( Richards, Renee; Ames, John (2007), No Way Renee: The Second Half of My Notorious Life (Hardcover), Simon & Schuster, ISBN 978-0743290135 )

Guardian article

The in-text citations from the guardian article don't reference the study itself, and furthermore some of the quotations are taken out of context. ( The original report's finding is avilable here: http://www.arif.bham.ac.uk/requests/g/genderreass.htm#3 )

Note that the report says that the uncertainties are too large to form a conclusion, it certainly does NOT say that there is no evidence ( in contrast to the guardian article ). It also states:

"The points above, by raising significant problems in the conduct of much of the research claiming to show that gender reassignment surgery is beneficial, suggests that the true conclusion from the available research is that we genuinely cannot be certain about what its effects are. A systematic review could help reduce this uncertainty, but because of the flawed nature of the majority of the research it is likely that the only way to reduce the level of uncertainty is to undertake more research using more rigorous designs with a control group, ideally randomly assigned, and blind independent assessment of outcomes (Abramowitz SI, 1986)."

In other words, the report simply says the research on the matter is insufficient to form a conclusion. It certainly doesn't say that there has been no signs suggesting it is beneficial ( which is what the wiki article currently claims ).

Furthermore, the review itself comes with a disclaimer: " The information is only a very brief summary of that available at the time. It was primarily designed to give readers a starting point to consider research evidence in a particular area. Readers should not use the comments made in isolation and should read the literature suggested. Readers should also be aware that more appropriate evidence may have become available since the request was undertaken. ARIF does not routinely update the advice on these pages."

ALl in all, given the above discrepancies between the guardian article and the disclaimer provided in the review, I really don't think it is a good source and basing almost half the section on it is probably not justified. I would much rather see a reference to a more official statement made by an official organisation. The Guardian is a newspaper, known to be sensationalist, and I think it is fairly obvious that the current bit that is in there is probably not a very good representation of the general opinions of experts in the field. I'd say it should go. J.Ring 11:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. It does sem a bit misplaced, doesn't it?

I think a more accurate description of effectiveness would be that there is insufficient evidence to state clearly that there is a benefit, however current studies show some positive outcomes and possible reduction in healthcare costs after SRS/SAS/GRS (pick your TLA of choice). Additionally, social indicators showed an increase in social function, and psychoneurotic index scores show lowered levels of anxiety. Methodologicaly, however, the studies thus far are unsuitable to giving precice estimates of benefit. (The Wessex Institute for Health Research and Development. Surgical gender reassignment for male to female transsexual people. 1998:25. Southampton: Wessex Institute for Health Research and Development [5])

Shall we replace it? (the above link is a structured review artice, so level 2 or 3 evidence)

Cheers! Lauren^♫/∆ 23:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Please see the above section on the Guardian article. It never should have been included. Dr Paul McHugh was the Johns Hopkins Catholic representative that collected info for the church here to discredit the gender program in the states. Simply put they went into the study with just this question, "Has your life improved?" Unqualified and without a control group the aim was to prove it did nothing and EXACTLY like the UK study these transwomen disappeared and they could find very few. That is explainable since the ones who were passible went stealth, changing their names and moving on with their lives. Also not included in this was that at the time 70% of transwomen were unemployed, under constant threat of violence (16x the regular murder rate) and horribly discriminated against. No effort was made to determine how these factors affected answers. It should be noted that based on medical evidence on Feb 2 2010 the US Tax Courts struck down the IRS rules based on McHughs studies saying it was without merit and overwhelmed by the medical evidence before the courts. That is right, sexual reassignment became tax deductible. Perhaps that should have been included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.149.114.34 (talk) 08:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Not the same as TG

All true-TSs, by definition want SRS and to correct their social role. Failing that, you are a transgender man who pretends he is a "TS" or a "woman," not an actual TS. TSs get surgery, TGs don't. MtF TSs are women, MtF TGs are MEN. Please do not confuse TSs with TGs nor any other type of LGBT. --75.177.39.22 (talk) 07:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Transgenderism is what is described in the introduction to this article as transsexualism - ie, your gender identity not matching your assigned-at-birth sex. This includes transsexuals, who are transgendered people who have taken (or plan to take) medical steps to alter their biological sex in the direction of bringing it into line with their gender identity. http://www.tsroadmap.com/start/tgterms.html It is entirely correct to refer to transgender people in their chosen gender, and in fact it's wrong in most contexts (biological/anatomical contexts among the obvious potential exceptions) to refer to them in the gender they have rejected, regardless of whether they aspire to make physical alterations, which may for example be due to a fear of surgery or an inability to make commitments. 193.146.58.181 (talk) 22:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

However, all transsexual women were supposed to have vaginae, while TG "women" are suposed to have their penises. TSism is inborn, but TG is a lifestyle choice.74.124.177.165 (talk) 19:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi, although what you say is probably true to your experience it's not to all. There is plenty of room in all the definitions for some variations. Many in the trans community also purposefully avoid labels. If you have a verifiable reliable source that asserts your POV perhaps posting it here so others can be swayed would be helpful. Benjiboi 12:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is true for ALL true-TSs. The ones for whom it is not true is a type of forever non-op known as a TG. TSs are born with the need to correct their bodies and identify as Mainstream. There is a separate TS Community (getting or have surgery and identify as non-LGBT) aned TG (mostly gender-variant men who live as women, maintaining their penises for life). A true-TS as the term is now reclaimed to mean is a subset of the Mainstream Community, while a TG is a type of LGBT. You either need surgery (TS) or you have never needede nor desired it (TG). You are either a woman with a birth defect and the need to correct it (TS) or a man in drag (TG). The TS Mainstream Movement is not concerned with labels either. Either you were born with the need for surgery and are in the community, or you are not. TSs all just want to be seen as Mainstream, apart from the TG men who have a rightful place in the LGBT Community.74.124.177.165 (talk) 19:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, it's far from that black-and-white. Being transgendered isn't necessarily a "fetish," nor would most transwomen appreciate being called "men"... they're very much imprecise umbrella terms, that both refer to a spectrum of diverse gender identities with similar though slightly different connotations. krimpet✽ 11:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the preceding two comments. Some people like to assert linguistic hegemony and assert that they have the one true definition of particular words. But other people will use them as we choose whether we like it or not. So rather than trying to give the "true" definitions, we should describe how the words are used, perhaps mentioning significant variation in usage where appropriate. In the real world, people will need to be explicit about how they are using the words, and readers or listeners shouldn't assume a particular usage without asking for clarification. Social Norm (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:44, 12 April 2009 (UTC).

SusannaBoudrie: Transgenderism differs from transsexualism in that the former is an urge to be "trans" and not to become men and women. For People with Transgenderism, including transvestism and different kinds of queerism, it is sufficient to take on the social role (gender) of the opposite sex." The inclusion of transsexualism under transgenderism is considered abusive and cissexual colonizing by most people with transsexualism or those with a born with transsexualism. SusannaBoudrie (talk) 04:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Because Wiki’s contributors are predominantly Americans this page doesn't reflect the cultural differences between American trans community and the British trans community. For many reasons Transgender is the generally accepted broad brush description used in the United States to be inclusive of everything from GID sufferers to Drag Queens, In Britain it the phrase Transgender is more akin to an insult because it implies rejection of your gender identity being neither one not the other. In Britain the term transsexual is appropriate because it defines who is seeking gender reassignment, common enough due to free health care, and are protected by the law against employment discrimination and hate crimes these are transsexual. And those men who simply cross dress as a hobby and don’t want surgery or change their name or will devoice and apply for a new birth certificate as per the UK’s Gender Recognition Act. These guys are transvestites and in the UK the two are quite distinct groups. -- Claire Eastwood: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.175.137 (talk) 14:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree that Ameri-wikipedians are predominant but disagree that the articles should remain geopolitically faulty or that issues cannot be properly addressed benefiting all concerned. Personally I prefer Intersex to Trans community but also accept that any terminology and labels are problematic so I focus on removing barriers and doing my part to promote understanding. I suggest you see what in this section could be improved. You may also find though that even within British transvestite and transsexual communities are folks who feel their experiences and voices are not being addressed and that experience will be shared until there is simply no discrimination for any gender and sexuality minorities. Benjiboi 16:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

As an Australian, I note that the usage that you're referring to as American is the usage common to almost every transgendered person I've had contact with around the world, including some in the UK. Perhaps there is local variation within the UK, but the use of the term transgender to refer to the entire spectrum of gender variant people including drag artists, crossdressers (the clinical term transvestite is technically equivalent but now much less used) and transexuals appears to be well established in the majority of the world. If there is indeed a local variation, find a reliable source for that information and add it where it's relevant. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 22:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I must take issue with "All true transsexuals want SRS". What a bunch of bull. Suppose I stated that all true transexuals were flamboyantly homosexual when living as males. Or, gasp, I were to say that transsexuals who are "obsessed" with having the female anatomy were less transsexual. I would be pilloried!

SRS is a modern and recent surgical invention. Many a psychologist from Benjamin forward have argued that transsexualism has been found across cultures and throughout history. BEFORE their was modern surgery. Those transsexual women of antiquity made do with what they could do. Modern transsexual women who choose to not have the surgery carry on in that tradition. To say otherwise is to degrade the long and broad history of transsexualism in the human animal.

Issue 2 the use of the word transsegender. The use of that word is in the process of changing and evolving. I have heard it used as it should be. Which is an an umbrella term for all who are gender non-conforming. I have also heard it used by some transsexuals who preach of HBS to describe transsexuals who don't meet their standards.--Hfarmer (talk) 16:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

So those who wish to conform fully to the Mainstream, non-LGBT community and get surgery should have a right to call themselves TSs. All the others are gender-variant, not conformists like the TSs, and are a type of LGBT member and should only call themselves TGs. The TS-only Community got rights for itself until 2000 when the TGs and LGBTs hijacked them with opposite strategies than what works for those born with TSism.74.124.177.165 (talk) 19:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

---

I agree with you, Hfarmer. Speaking on behalf of transmen, many do not get "SRS," and are no less real transsexuals than those who do. That term itself has problems. "Sex reassignment surgery," as it is currently understood, refers specifically to genital surgery, thus making the assumption that sex is defined entirely by the gentials. This ignors all the other aspects of sex differentiation in our species, including endocrine profile and secondary sex characteristics. I regard sex reassignment as a combination of surgeries and hormone treatment rather than a single surgical operation.

Any insistence that, in order to be a true transsexual one must desire a specific procedure, is damaging to the entire trans community. The danger exists that some people may feel coerced into having genital surgery that they don't really want, or that otherwise isn't right for them. The consequences of that could be enormous. It really is a bad attitude to espouse.

Of course, that leaves open the debate about where the line is drawn between transsexuals and other transgender types. As much as I hate catagories, we do need them in order to discuss trans issues, and more importantly, for legal purposes.-- Wolfgang E. B. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolfgang E. B. (talk • contribs) 02:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no danger as TSs are a part of the TS & Mainstream Community, not the Trans Community. TSs share the same community as the Mainstream people, just like TGs share theirs with homosexuals. The TGs need to be honest that they are not TSs. Their dishonesty is what drives TGs to get TS-only surgery. When TGs can be honest that they don't have the same inborn condition that TSs have and need to correct, but are honest enough to admit publicly to being men who choose to crossdress and cross-live, then there will be no risk of unwanted surgery. Therapy should place a priority to get TGs to admit they are not TSs but men who choose to live as women. Really, if a person doesn't want to get surgery and live fully as if they were never trans, maybe they should not choose to crossdress or crosslive in th first place. Women's clothes are for women, and all women are supposed to have vaginae. The TG men in drag have a male gender identity, despite a feminine social role, and that male core drives them to keep and use their penises and take advantage of the male power associated with such. A TS woman never had any male power nor wanted it. But most TGs live as what they are not to get power they are not entitled to. Under the law, ALL who get SRS for the right reasons should be eligible to get their records sealed and be issued new birth records with the old dates and no computer copies. As for non-op TGs, maybe they should get TG records.74.124.177.165 (talk) 19:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

This strikes me as a really problematic POV. It's fine to declare that there is a difference between someone who identifies as female and has surgery to make their body align with their identity, and someone who identifies similarly but does not want surgery. What is messed up, is declaring that the latter is a man in drag. Having different terminology is fine, but it is not okay to invalidate people and their experiences. I know a lot of trans women who want surgery, and many who do not. Even with a difference like this, they have a tremendous amount in common. Most importantly, they all identify as women entirely, and live accordingly. Declaring that a trans woman who does not want surgery is really a man "pretending" to be a woman, when such a great emphasis is placed on not judging a person or assigning them a gender based on their hormones or genitalia at birth, is completely nonsensical. P.gandal (talk) 19:03, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Trinity FFS site

www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net ==

More on above

Same link removed from this entry numerous times already. Site in question contains content lifted without permission from at least two other sites:

• Electrologists on the 'Net Who Treat Men, compiled by Rodney Brandon
• TG-friendly Therapists, compiled by Dr. Rebecca Allison

The site has been spammed under multiple listings on Wikipedia. Many speculate the site owner is responsible for repeated attempts to reinsert the link here and elsewhere. The owner has had an unsatisfactory experience with plastic surgeon Douglas Ousterhout and has been publicizing this dissatisfaction in any venue available. Since the link appears under the Ousterhout entry and is not considered a primary trans web resource or a neutral point of view, it should not be listed under the general heading.

note:

• original comment was removed by 68.185.69.177 on 8 March and replaced that day.
• comment removed by 68.185.69.177 again on 9 March and replaced that day.

Jokestress 15:40, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

TAKE A LOOK AT TRINITY'S SITE AND COMPARE WHAT THIS USER IS SAYING TO WHAT IS ON THE TRINITY SITE AND YOU SEE THAT Jokestress IS MAKING FALSE CLAIMS.

Jokestress Makes the claim that info has been lifted from * Electrologists on the 'Net Who Treat Men, compiled by Rodney Brandon

Compare the the link at **Trinity Site is question You will find the site uses frames, which would require you to dirctly right click on top of the Electrolysis and Laser link, then left click on open in a new link to see where it's linked to. Jokestress tries to use peoples lack of knowing how web pages work to make it seem like that site is stealing something when it's not doing any such thing.

Click on the link to the Electrolysis & Laser Treatments

Electrolysis and Laser **Electrolysis & Laser Treatments Area in question Notice the site links directly to Electrologists on the 'Net Who Treat Men, compiled by Rodney Brandon www.hairremovalpros.com being the site Jokestress claims is being lifted without permission. The site in questoin is linked to the same site Jokestress is claiming to be lifted by the Trinity site and this is the first example of slander by Jokestress

Now look at the other site Jokestress claims has had info lifted from it. TG-friendly Therapists, compiled by Dr. Rebecca Allison and compare the the links at **Trinity Site is question There are no TG-friendly Therapists listed on the site at all. Another example of slander by Jokestress

Slader after slander after slander.

I moved the above response by 68.185.69.177 below the earlier comment by me. Frames or not, the issue at hand was whether the site link should appear under this entry. Since several other Wikipedians had removed the link previously, I was following suit. Finally, the removal of comments on a talk page is considered vandalism. This is a place for discussion of conflicts, not for removing comments with which one disagrees. Jokestress 04:48, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Jokestress you lied about the site and the owner time and time again. I would not be surprised that people who removed the site are past patients of Douglas Ousterhout. I think you would want to up date you statement since accused **Trinity Site is question lifting items and it has not done what you claim. The site is linked on some of the major TG sites om the web by the owners of the site. So there are bound to be people who link it here and other places. If a site is linked on one major site on the web, it will bound to get links other places by the people who read the site and like it.

OK, let's take another look at more Trinity content lifted from another site as an example. Electrologists and Laser in CA is lifted almost verbatim from California Electrolysis Page on Karyn's Transsexual Refuge. Bottom line is that the Trinity site has padded out some areas to make it seem like a general resource site, but its primary goal is to complain about a surgeon Trinity does not like. Jokestress 15:11, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As a semi-objective bystander here, I want to state that Jokestress's website is one of the most comprehensive and genuinely useful ones out there on the Web. She takes definite stances on some things, and is a very successful client of Ousterhout, but she errs on the side of cautious scrutiny and caveat emptor in all cases. She is extremely NPOV about everything she states on her website, and I am sure her edits here are, as well. I don't have caches of the website(s) in question, so I can't swear to the absolute accuracy of her points here, but I would bet a lot of money that she is in the right here. (Is this an appropriate place to make this point? I'm still kinda new to Wikipedia.) Jiawen 04:09, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As another bystander here I would like to revive the this about the Trinity site that was unjustly put down by Andrea JamesJokestress's www.tsroadmap.com

Andrea James Jokestress is was not NPOV when it comes to the subject of Trinity Rose or her sitewww.facialfeminizationsurgery.net The number one reason being that Andrea James Jokestress has been taking large contributions from Dr. Douglas Ousterhout for the past ten years in the name of the events Andrea James Jokestress has been presenting. Dr. Douglas Ousterhout been presented at the top of the guest list at the events she has organized because of the contributions to the event. Kind of hard to be NPOV about ike Trinity or her sitewww.facialfeminizationsurgery.net when you are accepting large amounts of money from Dr. Douglas Ousterhout. It would also be difficult to be NPOV Andrea James Jokestress's www.tsroadmap.com website promotes Dr. Douglas Ousterhout and you are selling videos promoting Dr. Douglas Ousterhout surgeries.

Another note I woud ike to touch on is when Andrea James Jokestress was trying to keep this Trinity’s off links section, Trinity’s site and Andrea’s were in direct competition in content and scope.

I think we should talk about this matter a great deal and get some facts out including some letters that have been made pubic about Dr. Mark Zukowski and Dr. Douglas Ousterhout fighting about Trinity case. The facts of the contents of the Dr. Douglas Ousterhout's letter to Dr. Mark Zukowski is to force him to get Dr. Anne Lawrence to remove Trinity's link from her website www.annelawrence.com/twr/index.html by way of treats. And for anyone that does not know this Andrea James Jokestress and Dr. Anne Lawrence have also been debating on number of subjects for many years now through the use of their websites and other media.

I think on the next response to this I will also provide get the link for the Dr. Douglas Ousterhout letter to Dr. Mark Zukowski.

There is a great dea of history when it comes to the matter of the Trinity Rose site and her ordeal with Dr. Douglas Ousterhout that people just don't know 23 Apr 2008

Examining Transgender/Transsexuals

The term “trans-gender” was used in the following ways:

1979, Christine Jorgensen, rejects “transsexual” for the term “trans-gender” 1988, the term is used to refer to transsexual people

The term “transgender” was used in the following ways:

1974, the term is used to refer to transsexual surgery 1985, Christine Jorgensen, rejects “transsexual” for the term “transgender”

Additionally, the term “transgendered” was used in the following way:

1970, in reference to the "transsexual" in the movie “Myra Breckinridge”

Lastly, the term "transgender community" (in it's complete modern usage, inclusive of transsexuals) was in print in trans magazines in 1984

It is therefore incorrect to assert Leslie created the term as it stands today in the mid 1990s or that Price coined it since the 1970 usage pre-dates Prince's "transgenderist" term.

For copies of all relevant articles and citations: http://www.cristanwilliams.com/b/2011/07/13/transgender-origins/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.8.34.255 (talk) 00:48, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I believe that, a small number of actual hermaphrodites notwithstanding, there is no difference between a transsexual and a homosexual except that the former are committed to reassigning their gender to match their sexual orientation. This is hardly an uncommon belief and one whose rationality is fairly self evident, why nothing in the article? 74.78.162.229 (talk) 13:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you wilfully ignoring the large percentages of transwomen who are attracted to other women and transmen who are attracted to other men, or just blissfully unaware that reality could possibly deviate from your assumptions? Actually, many people - trans- and cisgendered alike - consider their sexual preferences to have little if anything to do with their gender identity or vice versa. 193.146.58.181 (talk) 22:18, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

I have a similar opinion about this topic... so if you have references, feel free to improve the article. --Taraborn (talk) 14:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Well there is one psychologist who partially agrees with that. This is covered in the article Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory. According to Dr. Blanchard transsexuals can be categorized by sexual orientation. As the WP article says "Homosexual transsexuals are motivated to become transsexuals by their extreme effeminacy, and erotic desires to couple with men." Of course it's not a simple as that sentence.

The reasons this is not mentioned are complex. The most notable being the dominance of the other part of this theory which deals with transsexuals who are not attracted to men. It is called Autogynephilia and it dominates the discussion of Dr. Blanchard's ideas. It is controversial to say the least.

The eitology of transsexualism has a article dedicated to it. So that topic need not be covered in any depth in this article at all. --Hfarmer (talk) 14:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The big problem with the theory that transsexed women are actually just homosexual men, is that many of them are either bisexual, or exclusively attracted to women. The latter generally identify simply as lesbian, and both groups usually see their condition as something not related to sexual orientation (hence the recent trend in some to use the term "transsexed" instead of "transsexual"), but instead as a birth defect to be corrected, similar to how intersexed conditions cause a person to have genitalia that may not match their psychological gender (or, sometimes, may not match *either* gender - intersex genitalia can be completely ambiguous, between male and female). Added to that, two separate scientific studies have shown that transsexed women, despite being born in a male body, have female brain structures, which are present BEFORE hormone treatment. The medical community is slowly leaning towards the view that this is a birth defect, and I have to say I'm on that side - if nature can create quirks like intersexed people, who have bodies inbetween male and female (and I happen to be an intersexed woman, my strong discomfort with certain aspects of my body matches what my trans friends have told me about how they feel), AND studies have shown transsexed women to have female brain structures, I can easily see nature "messing up" enough to create a person who has the brain structure of one gender in the body of the opposite sex. Of course, medical science still needs to do a lot more research on the issue to be absolutely sure, but current evidence does seem to strongly suggest that transsexed women are, neurologically and psychologically, female, and that treatment to make their bodies female also is the logical way to proceed. While yes, there are a handful of psychologists/psychiatrists who strongly believe that transsexed women are either homosexual men or men with a fetish for having a female body, their opinion is strongly disputed and seems to be a very much minority position - I'm sure you'd still find a fair few psychologists/psychiatrists who, despite majority opinion, still believe that homosexuality is a mental illness that can be cured. You may be able to cite that a few hold that opinion, but I doubt you'll be able to cite that it's a very well respected viewpoint amongst the psychiatric community (and even less respected by the trans community). Also, while I've continually talked about transsexed women, I was just using them as an example for the sake of clarity - pretty much all I've said applies (in reverse) to transsexed men - male brained people in female bodies. To be honest, more than a brief mention of these fringe views is likely to be both as pointless and as offensive as going to <ethnic minority> page, and adding something like "Many scholars such as <a few names of white-extremist racist types> believe that <ethnic minority> are prone to such negative behaviour as <outdated stereotypes and anti-ethnic-minority propaganda>, this is supported by <cite to obviously forged or flawed study by said extremists>" instead of making clear that such views are the fringe opinions of a few bigoted idiots, if they're even mentioned at all. I mean I'm sure we don't have a page about Asian people stating the views of the Australia First Party that Asians are plotting to take over Australia and oppress white people. Xmoogle (talk) 22:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your insights, but I'm not sure where your information is coming from. I'm pretty well read on this issues, and I don't think anyone has ever said that MtF's are all homosexual males; the closest is Blanchard who said that >some< MtF's are a type of homosexual male but that asexual, lesbian, and bisexual MtFs are not at all like homosexual males.

I know of a single study which showed that MtF's (sexual orientations not reported) had a single part of the brain that was shifted in the female direction, but no study that looked at people before hormones. Which studies are you referring to?

I agree that the best thing to do for many MtF's is to help them undergo transition, but that's different from saying that they are literally women trapped in men's bodies (or vice versa).

—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 22:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say that anyone said all were homosexual males, I said that a few (Blanchard etc) said that they were all *either* homosexual males *or* males with a fetish for the idea of having a female body. As for the study that was conducted on that one area of the brain (other areas presumably remain uninvestigated), at least one of the women they studied had never gotten as far as getting female hormones, yet still had the female brain structure. There was a second study which confirmed the findings of the first study, but I can't remember exactly how to find it. Either that, or it was the second study that had one subject who had never had hormones - I can't remember clearly on which of the two studies it was, but I do clearly remember at least one subject had never taken hormones. And yes, saying that transition is the best course of action *is* a different statement to saying that transsexed women literally are women in the wrong body, but I do say and agree with both statements, partially from a great deal of research, and partly from unciteable personal experience (for example, I'm a lesbian, although I've tried one or two straight relationships, and there is a very distinct difference between the personalities of men and women. I've dated trans women, and they have personalities/psychologies that are like any other woman. Many of my friends are trans women, and have distinctly female personalities. A couple of my friends are trans men, and they have unmistakable male personalities. Although obviously, my personal experiences are not verifiable and citeable the way Wikipedia would need them to be). Besides, what's this "Deconstructing" business? Are transsexed people made of Lego or something? Xmoogle (talk) 00:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The study I know about is: Zhou, J. N. et al. (1995). A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. Nature, 378, 6552, 68–70.

And that study was not able to rule out hormones as being responsible for the detected differences. If there is a replication, I'd certainly enjoy knowing about it.

I never liked the word "deconstructing" either. It always sounds to me like "analysis" with an insecurity complex.

—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 01:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The good old tradition of using unnecessary verbosity and big words to make onesself look more intelligent... Anyway, I'm barely awake right now, but I'm pretty sure the second study was in the 2000s. Still no idea how to find it right now. It may come up in a google search for "transsexual brain differences" or something. Xmoogle (talk) 07:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

That's real funny considering of anyone writing in this section you are the most wordy Xmoogle! So far as I know Zhou's study is the only one that has been done on transsexuals brains that found the BSTC difference.--Hfarmer (talk) 15:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Yay for me then? Xmoogle (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Zhou had a second round of examinations, including the first FTM (found to have masculinized BSTC structures) as well as a woman who had a virilizing tumor (it flooded her body with androgens) and a man who had an estrogen excreting tumor. Both had gender identities consistent with birth sex. As it was found, the woman with the testosterone fell in the female group, and the man with the estrogen excreting tumor was found to fall in the male group. This second test proves that hormones alone are not sufficient to account for a change in the structure of BSTC. I'll get the reference for you if you insist that it doesn't exist. --Puellanivis (talk) 03:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Another problem with the BNSTc finding is that the BNSTc is also smaller in pedophiles. So the BNSTc could be related to atypical sexuality generally rather than to gender identity specifically. (For the record: This should not be misinterpreted comparing transsexualism to pedophilia.)

The reference for that is: Schiltz, K., Witzel, J., Northoff, G., Zierhut, K., Gubka, U., Fellman, H., et al. (2007). Brain pathology in pedophilic offenders: Evidence of volume reduction in the right amygdala and related diencephalic structures. Archives of General Psychiatry, 64, 737–746.

—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 16:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with that interpretation, "The BNSTc could be related to atypical sexuality", is that that would make all women have "atypical sexuality". Also, transsexualism is usually not considered a sexuality, transsexed people don't "get off" on being trans. Besides, from Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus (Frank P. M. Kruijver, Jiang-Ning Zhou, Chris W. Pool, Michel A. Hofman, Louis J. G. Gooren and Dick F. Swaab) - "We determined in 42 subjects the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women (P < 0.006). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder." (emphasis added by me). This seems to show quite clearly that they *were* able to rule out hormone treatment as a cause for the brain difference. Xmoogle (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

From skimming the study I linked to, it's from 1999, and references the earlier 1995 Zhou study you mentioned. This is the second study I was thinking of, uses some of the same test subjects as the 1995 study, and appears to be an expansion of it. Hope this all is helpful! Xmoogle (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Something else that may be interesting - A criticism of Bailey's methods of first ignoring the brain study, and then ignoring some of it's data and twisting the rest of the data to fit his own theories. In my own personal view, a person who resorts to misinterpreting data so heavily, either through ignorance/mistake or on purpose, is not truly a scientist. There's no real credibility to his theories. Xmoogle (talk) 19:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Yet another comment - from researching the pedophile study, I can't find access to the full article, but it appears to be talking about a different area of the brain. Searching for the article on google while including the term "bstc" shows up nothing at all. Could you perhaps provide a link so I can see what you're talking about? Xmoogle (talk) 20:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you're quoting the abstract of the article, not the body of the article itself. The basis of the authors' statement was that they had a sample of people with endocrinological disorders, and in that sample, there was no association between BNSTc size and their hormonal make-up. The researchers did not actually test any transsexuals before they started hormone treatment.

The finding does not imply that biological females have atypical sexualities. The logic is easiest to understand by analogy. Men are taller than women (on average). There are also diseases or situations (such as poor nutrition in childhood) that make a person short. But, one cannot conclude that women have those diseases or have poorer childhood nutrition (on average). Rather, women are shorter for one reason, and people with the illnesses are short for another.

I'm afraid I don't have a link to the Archives of General Psychiatry that can be used outside the university; library holdings can be accessed electronically only by faculty and current students. It's one of the biggest psychiatry journals in print, so any university or medical library will have it. If you bring the reference I posted earlier, the librarians there will help you locate it. (Librarians aren't entirely obsolete just yet!) The BNSTc finding was only tangential from the point of view of the pedophilia researchers, so it was not mentioned in the abstract. —MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 20:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, actually, it *is* known that one of the subjects had never been able to get hormone treatment. Just read the criticism of Bailey's method link above - that has a little more info about that particular person. They specifically wanted to check that because the 1995 study hadn't, from what I've read. Xmoogle (talk) 02:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I also think they should start working on the transexual shot like make it last longer or like if they take a shot they can be tranny for whole year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.224.36.46 (talk) 04:25, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

New report on transsexuality from American Psychological Association.

The American Psychological Association has just released the final report from it's task force on trans issues. The report is lengthy (126 pages), so adding relevant content should probably be accomplished by multiple editors. For those interested, the report is available at http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/transgender/2008TaskForceReport.pdf. Also relevant is APA's recent passage of an anti-discrimination policy regarding trans issues, the text of which is available at http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/policy/transgender.pdf.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 14:43, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

"Condition" etc.

Since this page cannot be edited, I was hoping that we could indicate that citation is needed regarding whether or not transsexualism is a condition. The debate is still ripe and hot just like the fight over homosexuality in the 70's. Homosexuality was also once considered a mental condition and was removed from the DSM and was not present in the DSM-III-R (the revision, published in 1987). I think it is inappropriate to call it a condition, life choice, or life style. I think it is best said as, "Transsexualism is when one identifies with a physical sex different from the one with which they were born.

Also, while transsexualism is stigmatized in many parts of the world, it is also accepted and even embraced in others (Thailand is a good example). Transsexualism remains controversial mostly in the United States. I do not feel this article's introduction gives a healthy global perspective on transsexualism. To add, I do not like the term "so-called" used to describe two-spirits. This implies that their belief is invalid, and thus gives the article's introduction an inappropriate tone.

Thank you, and please take these notes into consideration.

--Ectopedia (talk) 22:18, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the term "so-called" because it is biased. The DSM-IV defines transsexualism as a mental disorder, so I will cite the DSM-IV. Jenever Spirit (talk) 11:09, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The opinions of the transgender community are at least as important as the opinions of the psychiatric community.193.146.58.181 (talk) 22:34, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

no, they really aren't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.50.80.81 (talk) 05:07, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

What the hell happened?

Massive Massive Vandalism is what. It looks like all of the work on these articles will have to be totally redone. --Hfarmer (talk) 13:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

All move vandalism to the article and talk page have been fixed. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:25, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Tipton portrait.jpg

The image Image:Tipton portrait.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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Moved from lede per WP:Soap, amongst others

“ Harry Benjamin, an endocrinologist and one of the first physicians to assist transsexuals obtain sex reassignment, quotes from a letter he received from Dr. Christian Hamburger, the physician who treated Christine Jorgensen:

These many personal letters from almost 500 deeply unhappy persons leave an overwhelming impression. One tragic existence is unfolded after another; they cry for help and understanding. It is depressing to realize how little can be done to come to their aid. One feels it a duty to appeal to the medical profession and to the responsible legislature: do your utmost to ease the existence of these people who are deprived of the possibilities of a harmonious and happy life—through no fault of their own.

”

• Comment. What exactly do we hope to be telling our readers in the lede of this article about the subject? That transsexual people are "deeply unhappy", "tragic" have "little" hope, "are deprived of the possibilities of a harmonious and happy life"? Or that we hold these outdated views to be the mainstream view? Some transsexual people are quite happy the way they were born thank you so much. If this is used to place in context the outmoded thinking of Benjamin and other then place it and describe it as such. In the lede it's WP:undue and WP:Soapboxing IMHO. -- Banjeboi 23:16, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

You have to understand the way so many transsexuals think. In particular those from an older generation who are white. They are stepped in a perfectly binary gender system inherited from their European heritage. Women have a vagina men have a penis. A woman cannot have a penis and a man cannot have a vagina. To them men and women are defined not by who they are but by their parts. I have had a bit of conflict over this topic on this page (see TS VS TG). You are correct. Many TS's MTF and in particular FTM have been able to find happiness in the social role of their new gender (in the binary gender system) inspite of not having had SRS. I am such a person. While I am certain I will have SRS at some point I am not like going to commit suicide if I don't get the operation. To the minds of some, who call their transsexualim "Harry Benjamin Syndrome" I am just a "homosexual transsexual Ladyboy", A extreme sissy, a faggot @$$ TG. I see myself as a two-spirited Muhannathun who's way of thinking about gender and sexuality is just different from the dominant white, western European norms. I I am not mistaken you are Latino, and judging by your chosen name you know a thing or two about a subculture that the kind of people who put that LONG quote form Benjamin there deride. You know what I mean? --Hfarmer (talk) 23:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

It's just different perspectives at work. That is why they add that quote. They stress that without the operation they cannot be happy. I respect that people like that exist but they are not all transsexuals by any means at all. Even Dr. Bejmain saw that.--Hfarmer (talk) 23:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Lord I suppose in the charge climate of WP these days that could be taken wrong. When I wrote above. "They are not all transsexuals" I of course mean their POV is not that of all transsexuals. I can just hear AJ furiously typing indignantly as I write this. Like I said ya'll californians need to take a chill pill enjoy the weather and start petioning the populace for a new ballot initiative to reverse prop 8. --Hfarmer (talk) 00:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

It's a very POV statement and heavy-handed quote. It doesn't seem appropriate to give it such weight. Also you assumptions that I'm in California, may or may not be able to relate to transsexuals, etc aren't terribly helpful here. I'm not sure this quote is terribly useful to this article as is. Possibly a shorter version of it. -- Banjeboi 02:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

If this is using Wikipedia as a Soapbox, then the people at the AMA are using a soapbox to change medical coverage of GID as well. The AMA (American Medical Association) has recently come out with guidelines explicitly marking discrimination against transgender care as being unethical and marking it as one of the most dangerous forms of refusal to care, because it damages the patient's trust in the medical community as a whole. "Should I go in to this hospital to take care of my broken arm, or are they just going to laugh at me and humiliate me?" This quote is entirely NOT a soapbox, unless it be Harry Benjamin himself posting it to the article. This is a real medical syndrome that requires care and attention, and showing it as such on Wikipedia is not soapboxing, it's basic honesty of information. --Puellanivis (talk) 04:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Benjiboi : Remember how you snapped off because you misinterpreted my statement that your being topic banned was specious and unreasonable. I wrote that the same day that happened. As for Californians, AJ ahem Jokestress does in fact live in California. :-| I'm pretty sure she keeps an eye on what I do here.

Puellanivis:I think what Benjiboi was getting at with that deletion, with which I agree, are a couple of things. If I remember correctly that passage was in a context that stressed the centrality of SRS. Not simply treatment in general. In context what was removed looks like this. (From [6])

Harry Benjamin, an endocrinologist and one of the first physicians to assist transsexuals obtain sex reassignment, quotes from a letter he received from Dr. Christian Hamburger, the physician who treated Christine Jorgensen:

These many personal letters from almost 500 deeply unhappy persons leave an overwhelming impression. One tragic existence is unfolded after another; they cry for help and understanding. It is depressing to realize how little can be done to come to their aid. One feels it a duty to appeal to the medical profession and to the responsible legislature: do your utmost to ease the existence of these people who are deprived of the possibilities of a harmonious and happy life—through no fault of their own.

This is implying that without SRS a transsexual cannot be happy. This is simply not the case. Using Benjamin as the source There are two levels on his scale where non-op transsexuals may occur. (see Benjamin scale) Furthermore the definition of GID given in the DSM does not say that a demand for SRS is a hard and fast requirement for diagnosis. Last but not least as Benjiboi said we know that their are transsexuals. Full time, living as women all the time and everywhere, not just in some sterotypical gay gehtto, who have not had surgery and will not have surgery ever. There are some who would argue that such people are not transsexuals. You can see my response to that...I was agitated. To say it briefly such people are wrong. There are at least twice as many non-op transsexuals as post-op transsexuals, they aren't all committing suicide or anything. In short, this quote not only violates WP policies, it also spreads misinformation. All to further the agenda of some transsexuals at the expense of others.--Hfarmer (talk) 11:32, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

My concerns are placing this in the lede - I would have similar concerns with almost any lengthy quote in any article's lede. It should be trimmed or split and the description written a bit more neutrally to avoid the appearance of editorializing. I would suggest also that the lede just ins't the place for this quote in particular. I'm quite famialiar with issues important to transfolk and intersex people so I have no problem including this - we just need to stay NPOV and serve our readers no matter our personal take on the subject. -- Banjeboi 03:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Expanding the lead

To conform to the standards of WP:LEAD. Could someone please do that. If I have to do it. What'll happen is someone or the other will lodge some riddiculous accusation or whatver. With a proper expanded lead section, one that does not violate any WP policy then this article would be IMO a good article. I would nominate it as such. Until then. --Hfarmer (talk) 12:23, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Result of an Automated peer review

In the past when I tried this the article was so big, or the server's so busy that this process would never end. This time it worked and generated a littany of issues with this article.

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  • correctly
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Transexual Fetishism

Why's there nothing anywhere about nontransexuals who are attracted to transexuals, actively seek transexuals, etc.--J. Daily (talk) 02:07, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Ahh the so called "tranny chasers". To be honest I don't think a whole lot has been written about them at all. I know of some studies which look at the way HIV is transmitted among MSM's which look at the men who have sex with transsexuals. Then there are the writtings of Ray Blanchard with refer to such men as gynandromoprhphiles. Or some such. But either of those things would be controversial. They also ammount to one or two paper's. Interesting question. hope someone looks at it eventually.--Hfarmer (talk) 06:20, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I also hope someone does a study of the difference between attraction to transgendered and/or transsexed people as people and fetishism of transgenderism and/or transsexuality.193.146.58.181 (talk) 22:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, that seems a bit outside of the scope of this article. Perhaps a brief mention and a new article on the topic, with a link to it or just a link to the new article. That would be to avoid scope creep and the unnecessary complication of the main article.Wzrd1 (talk) 13:55, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Ugo Gabriele "transsexual gangster"

This is a picture [7]. The way this person is described in some sources it makes her sound like a cross dressers, not a transsexual. However looking at this picture she looks pretty far along. Heavy. But far along. The media coverage of this is so wrong. I'll bet if she looked like Gina Lola Brigida the coverage would be much more respectful. --Hfarmer (talk) 13:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

But it's not up to us to decide whether the media is "wrong". I understand this objection, but per WP:RS we have to go upon what the media is saying. In terms of the notability of this story, it is quite tremendous. Only months ago a mafia foot soldier was gang raped for simply writing poetry in his cell because he was seen as gay. That an alleged capo might be a cross-dress/transsexual is quite a first. It speaks much to who Ugo Gabriele is that he was given this latitude. It also speaks to how deeply transsexuality is appearing in culture. It might not be the most respectful depiction, nor profession, but what it says in terms of cultural acceptance is pretty astounding. Whether the story belongs on cross-dresser or this article, I agree, is open to debate. But it belongs...somewhere in our sexuality articles. --David Shankbone 16:56, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

There is no way this "news story" has a place in an encyclopaedia. Wikipedia is not a news site!jenuk1985 (talk) 17:00, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a silly argument, as everything an encyclopedia is made up of is "news", especially when it depicts a significant "first". This is a significant first, especially considering the culture of the mafia itself (no less is macho Italy). --David Shankbone 17:06, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Some of the sources seem confused on the matter, sometimes switching between cross-dresser and transsexual in the same article. Others do not refer to them as a transsexual at all. There is no evidence that they self-identify as a transsexual.

Furthermore, even if it becomes clear that they do self-identify as a transsexual, a section about them in this article is undue weight and risks turning this article into a coatrack. If you believe this person meets notability guidelines, create an article about them. Neitherday (talk) 17:28, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

To me the only real question is does this person ID as transsexual? Juding from media coverge I lean towards yes now after doing more reading. You can find insensitive media coverage of any transsexual which will call them he if MTF. So that can't be said to disprove or prove anything. Looking t the picture this person seems to have made some permanent changes. So I would have to say after thinking about it more she is transsexual.

As for notability, weight etc. Well, the news on transsexuals can't always be glowingly positive now can it? --Hfarmer (talk) 19:11, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

This isn't about whether or not the news is "glowingly positive". No other person has a section dedicated to them in this article, and that is the way it should be. This article is not about transgender/transsexual individuals, it is about transsexualism. -Neitherday (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

There are plenty of people mentioned specifically in this article. I have no problem with not having a separate section, but mentioning this is certainly merited. --David Shankbone 07:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

@David Shankbone: I created an article at Ketty Gabriele and linked it at List of transgender people, but I don't think this person warrants a mention in this article. If it survives beyond a news cycle or two and it's determined Gabriele self-identifies as transsexual, maybe put it under media depictions. Jokestress (talk) 20:01, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Nice work Jokestress - isn't it "Kitty" though? --David Shankbone 07:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The Italian press spells it "Ketty," so I used the spelling from il Giornale and others. [8][9] I did Kitty as a redirect. Jokestress (talk) 16:58, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Lydia Foy

I've just created a new article about the case of Lydia Foy, who has spent 10 years fighting the Irish legal system over her gender issues.

I was hoping that some folk who read this might find the time to look at the article, improve it, comment, etc etc.

Many thanks,

--  Chzz  ►  01:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Hierarchy

Undid the change from hierarchy to establishment because it's a quote and the word used by the sourse is hierarchy. Anniepoo (talk) 23:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

¿¿¿¿"hierarchy" or "establishment"????

ok, then if it's a quotation, it has to be in quotation marks, otherwise it's plagiarism. quotations should cite the source as a reference, not simply refer to a book or article in the bibliography. in this case, then, it would be referenced as

<.ref>Brown, Mildred L.; Chloe Ann Rounsley (1996). True Selves: Understanding Transsexualism - For Families, Friends, Coworkers, and Helping Professionals. Jossey-Bass. ISBN 978-0787967024.</ref>

but without the "." in the "<.ref> (i can't figure out how to get it to show up here otherwise.)

i have added the quotation marks and the reference. i'm not sure if the whole paragraph or only the first sentence is quoted verbatim. please correct this if needed, as i don't have the book on hand at the moment.

any other text that is quoted verbatim in the article should be similarly placed in quotation marks and referenced.

Social Norm (talk) 09:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

kathoey

Is there any source for the comments about kathoey? The remarks seem to me to be an oversimplification. From what I read, the idea that Thailand is a TG/TS wonderland where everyone can be what they choose to be is a bit too idealized. My understanding is that while it's a recognized and to some extent acceptable identity, it's not without some stigmatization.

Social Norm (talk) 10:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe you are right. I would recommend looking at the work of Jillana Enteen for a reputable source to cite. 75.38.141.74 (talk) 03:10, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Transsexuality and the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990

In the article about the ADA of 1990, someone added some text to what conditions are (were) specifically not covered. (Such as poor eyesight correctable with lenses...) Someone claimed that transsexuality is a condition specifically not covered. I asked by 'citation needed' tag and on the Talk page for a citation. Left it a month. Have now removed it & commented again on Talk page. If someone knows the claim to be true and has a citation for it, go for it. [I am not watching this page.] - Hordaland (talk) 07:11, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

The reference would be http://finduslaw.com/americans_with_disabilities_act_of_1990_ada_42_u_s_code_chapter_126#3

Sec. 12211. Definitions

...

   (b) Certain conditions
     Under this chapter, the term "disability" shall not include -
       (1) transvestism, transsexualism, pedophilia, exhibitionism,
     voyeurism, gender identity disorders not resulting from physical
     impairments, or other sexual behavior disorders;

Zoe Brain (talk) 05:48, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Japanese Perspective

The end of the section 1.1 "Process" has a paragraph on the Japanese legal situation regarding Transsexualism. The "Standards of Care" described, the interaction of legal opinions, etc., are entirely unclear. While I understand the subject matter is complex, the paragraph is hopelessly confusing (what is legal and what is not, how is it legal, etc.). It needs to be clarified (or maybe removed entirely).--98.198.170.252 (talk) 02:19, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"Other languages and cultures"

The first two paragraphs of the Other languages and cultures section have nothing to do with "other" languages or cultures. One is about English terminology (specifically, pronoun use), and the other is historical information. Where can these paragraphs be moved to? rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 08:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

It could be moved to the section on origins. Or IMO perhaps it ought to be done away with. I mean... isn't most of that information covered elsewhere? Or perhaps we could move it to origins and edit it minimally just to emphasize that the information there is specific to western european culture? --Hfarmer (talk) 17:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

The Hirschfeld bit is appropriate in the Origins section, where you put it. But the totally unreferenced paragraph on gender pronouns isn't, since it's not about the origins of the transsexual movement or transsexualism diagnoses or anything, it's about social issues--what pronouns TS individuals prefer to have used. It still needs to go somewhere else, I think. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 18:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

That ridiculous lede

"Transsexualism is a condition in which an individual identifies with a physical sex different from the one they were born with."

Just what on Earth does this mean? "Identifies" and "physical sex" need definition. Without that, you have no way of telling *what* is "different from the one they were born with". There is also an unexamined philosophical view in this statement that is taken axiomatically. And while it may not be technically incorrect to end a sentence with a preposition, this one does so awkwardly. There are a lot of problems with this article, and that's before you get to the content. Ugly!Ariablue (talk) 07:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Would:

• Transsexualism refers to the phenomenon of somebody living as a sex other than that assigned at birth.

or

• Transsexualism refers to the phenomenon of somebody living in a sex other than that assigned at birth.

or

• Transsexualism refers to the phenomenon of somebody living as a sex other than that identified at birth.

or

• Transsexualism refers to the phenomenon of somebody living in a sex other than that identified at birth.

Be better?

There are exceptions (intersex), but the lead is not the place to go into that. Mish (talk) 12:44, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't your suggestions instead end with "... other than their biological one."?

That implies that the person has to actually live as whichever sex to be considered transsexual. Many would argue that you are transsexual even before changing the way you live. 75.38.141.74 (talk) 03:17, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Merge suggestion

See the discussion in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_LGBT_studies#Transgender_sexuality_article. A.A.Graff (talk) 15:23, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Why was the Arif study included ?

Right in the article!

"Arif, which advises the NHS in the West Midlands about the evidence base of healthcare treatments, found that most of the medical research on gender reassignment was poorly designed, which skewed the results to suggest that sex change operations are beneficial.

Its review warns that the results of many gender reassignment studies are unsound because researchers lost track of more than half of the participants. For example, in a five-year study of 727 post-operative transsexuals published last year, 495 people dropped out for unknown reasons. Dr Hyde said the high drop out rate could reflect high levels of dissatisfaction or even suicide among post-operative transsexuals. He called for the causes of their deaths to be tracked to provide more evidence.

Dr Hyde said: "The bottom line is that although it's clear that some people do well with gender reassignment surgery, the available research does little to reassure about how many patients do badly and, if so, how badly."

You just included a bias and ridiculous statement within the article when the very researchers the poster is claiming to quote discredit that same study based on the fact the RESEARCH WAS POOR! This was not peer reviewed or backed by anyone. Well done on including second hand studys that has discredited it's own evidence. There hasn't been a study on transsexuals PERIOD! These were follow ups and were completely uncontrolled and unscientific. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.149.114.34 (talk) 07:51, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Gender Roles - Dubious

I marked this section as dubious. Not all trans women are or want to be conventionally feminine. Not all trans men are or want to be conventionally masculine. Gender roles cover a lot of ground, but in my experience, they most often refer to gender stereotypes; if the section is interpreted to refer to gender stereotypes it is false. 72.66.63.94 (talk) 00:25, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Adding information gathered from interviews

I want to add some information about the struggles they face with their own families when coming out (e.g. being kicked out of their homes). I gathered this information through interviews with transvestites themselves. Would it be a reliable source? I spent nearly ten hours with two transvestites all together, but I also spoke to a group of about twenty to twenty-five transvestites about this topic. How would I add this to the references section? YFortino (talk) 09:25, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Transsexualism#Stealth

There is an issue in this section in that it says that Leslie Feinberg died because (s)he was refused treatment. Massive issue here in that Leslie is still alive! I know that a transman did die after being refused treatment but it was Leslie. Anyone know who it was? Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk | _Sign 17:13, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Robert Eads. I think the documentary about him is called Southern Comfort 75.38.141.74 (talk) 03:18, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Suggest that "Regrets and Detransitions" be copied or moved

I suggest that the section "Regrets and Detransitions" be copies or moved to Sex reassignment surgery because all data currently there pertains to former patients of SRS. Is there categorical information about people who have regretted only HRT or non-intervention transition, and would this be relevant? 69.243.148.33 (talk) 03:23, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Transsexuals in the media - serial killers and psychopaths

I have noticed for a long time whenever a film or tv show wants to portray a really sadistic psychopathic serial killer, 90 percent of the time they will make the character transsexual/ transvestite, so I added in a very short note in the media section although there are literally hundreds more examples that could be added in. It could be worth mentioning the alleged transsexualism of Ed Gein as a source for the stereotype, if we can call it that. I should probably have written this here first, I'm not 100% sure of the sources eligibility. Anyway please tidy up the comments rather than just deleting if possible, or if you do please tell me what changes need to be made to include the section, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.131.24 (talk) 00:27, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

The problem I see is that the source you give seems to be lacking mention of transsexualism in the context you use. The main example is the list of movie and TV characters. You say they are "transsexual and transvestites" but the source lists them all as cross-dressers (with one character "possibly intersexed" and one entry, The Dead Zone, not having any mention I can find anywhere). The other sentence says "cashing in on homophobia and transphobia" while your source gives a direct quote "cashing in on the homophobia market" and they don't really explain what or who that market is ^{(the confuses me because, in my personal experience the more homo/trans/bi-phobic a person is, the less likely they are to watch something that has an LGBT character even if the character is the bad guy)}. To me it seems that all content should be removed from the article on transsexualism and, if appropriate, re-entered into another article such as cross-dressing, list of transgender characters in film and television, or transphobia. Reliable sourcing is tricky; if you have spare time you may like to read WP:RS, WP:OR and WP:EMBED. Thanks for contributing. Theinactivist (talk • contribs) 04:43, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Transsexual, as a noun

Can I ask what the consensus is on using the word "transsexual" as a noun? A user has created a category called "Fictional Transsexuals" and I have been challenging the user on its validity. At the moment, the user has been directed to many transgender sites, including Trans Media Watch, but is accepting no evidence to the contrary, and perhaps some others might be able to help clarify the matter. Hardylane (talk) 01:36, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I see no problem with it, but then again, I am not finicky about "Terminological Correctness" a la mode PC?

I count 28 uses of the term "transsexuals" as a noun in the article at this moment… I find it hard to make a distinction between "Fictional Transsexuals" and "Fictional Masons" or "Fictional Republicans", etc., which are commonly used and not held to be an affront against the humanity of the Masons and Republicans in question? (There I go!)

I support the overall goals of organizations like Trans Media Watch and GLAAD, and appreciate that they have good intentions, but sometimes question their judgments and definitely their tendency to try to dictate usage in cases where there are reasonable grounds for differences of opinion… e.g., from Trans Media Watch Guidance for the Media - A Brief Glossary

""Transgendered" or use as a noun ("Trangenders were all writing in") are both incorrect, as is the use of to transgender as a verb (see Transition)."

They're on terribly shaky ground grammatically with the insistence (shared with GLAAD) that "transgendered" is grammatically incorrect, yet some people get prickly about it, as if it were a matter of holy principle… personally? I don't see a problem here, and likewise, I don't really understand why use as a noun is to be proscribed. -- thanks! - bonzie anne - bonze blayk (talk) 13:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

It is all rather personal preference really some prefer it some dislike it others dn't mind either way. It correct terminology in fr example male to female transsexuals.RafikiSykes (talk) 19:39, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Article Main Image

The article used to have this image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TransgenreatParis2005.JPG as the main (first) image in the article, but that has been changed to the image of Anna Grodzka. While I understand that Miss Grodzka is more significant than the unnamed trans woman in the other image which was moved further down the article, I must say that, as a trans person myself, the previous image definitely had a greater emotional impact that more adequately alludes to the internal significance and tension of transsexualism. I vote to return that image as the leading image of the article. 68.194.127.140 (talk) 00:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

I would support that... the photo used earlier was a wonderful shot.

I recall that there was some complaint at some point in time in Talk about the provenance of the image of the French trans woman, but I felt the objections were not compelling. -- thanks! -- bonze blayk (talk) 00:41, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Since there have been no objections or further comment, I have reverted to image to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TransgenreatParis2005.JPG, as suggested... - thanks! bonze blayk (talk) 18:52, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

The article main image appears twice, so you should remove the main image on the top part of the page and replace it with the Transgender (transsexual?) community flag...and the duplicate image can stay in an another portion of the article. 05:13, 12 June 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.102.21.238 (talk)

I've replaced the duplicate image of the French trans woman with an image of Polish MP Anna Grodzka, moving its location to a more appropriate section - "Legal and social aspects".

I don't believe the image of the "Transgender Pride Flag" is appropriate for inclusion in the article, since transsexuals comprise a distinct minority of those grouped under the "Transgender umbrella", and a significant minority of transsexuals object vociferously to being included within the category. - thanks - bonze blayk (talk) 17:22, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Why does 'Harry Benjamin syndrome' redirect here?

I saw that phrase used elsewhere and came to Wikipedia to look up what it means. Wikipedia redirects it to this page, but it isn't actually mentioned here. I assume it's simply an outdated term for transsexualism? (Curiously, Harry Benjamin's Syndrome instead redirects to Harry Benjamin, but that isn't really any more enlightening, since the phrase doesn't appear there either.) Robofish (talk) 12:15, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

There was once a description in this article under the heading "Alternative Terminology"… but it's been deleted! *sigh* … in a brilliant deletionist vandalism spree conducted by Joe Random IP 98.149.114.34, here's the edit just before it's deleted - bye bye Harry Benjamin Syndrome. (See: "Wikipedia is the free encyclopedia any idiot with internet access and an agenda to flog can deface" if you're lacking insight into this phenomenon, Robofish - I doubt that you do, since I've seen your handle around here before?)

"Oh my…" A deeper explanation: Well, "Harry Benjamin Syndrome" is an appellation for transsexualism that a bunch of what are commonly referred to as "TS Separatists" dreamed up to differentiate themselves from "others" who are not "True Transsexuals" - in their rather restrictive view of what transsexualism really is - which has absolutely nothing at all to do with those awful people who are "transgender" (thank you very much, that's what they say!) and to seek validation for themselves as really, truly, neurologically 100% female… even though that's probably not what Harry Benjamin himself thought, if you read The Transsexual Phenomenon closely?

Basically, it's an identity label - put forth as a medical diagnosis claiming transsexualism as a neurologically-based intersex condition, that, and only that - by a splinter group in the internecine wars of trans-factionalism. The "HBSers", as they are also called, are the only group within the categories of those with pronouncedly cross-gendered identities to take up with the "radfems", horrible shrieking self-proclaimed "Radical Feminists" who are inspired by the loathing of all-things-transsexual proclaimed in Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire. (This makes no sense at all, since those folks want to ban Sexual reassignment surgery completely?)

Gee, sorry if this sounds ranty, but out there in the trans-related Wide World of Blogging, there's a whole lotta ranty going on? Oddly, I sympathize deeply with the HBSers even as I judge them to be impolite, impolitic, and deeply clueless, because (dammit) so many of these transgenderfucking crossdressing autogynewhatsis folks are simply horrible people because they lack taste. (LOL) - thanks, bonze blayk (talk) 13:24, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

No, that's fine. On looking further, I found discussion of the concept at these deletion discussions. I understand the argument that it's not notable enough to mention, in that it seems to be a pretty fringe view, but it's just a little odd to leave the redirect there if we're not going to include it. Robofish (talk) 14:07, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

It's worth noting that those deletions were vandalism, using spurious claims of "Unsourced, POV pushing" and the like to justify them. The "Harry Benjamin Syndrome" terminology is definitely WP:FRINGE, and obviously does not merit its own article - but frankly, from my point of view it's worthy of mention since one comes across it elsewhere fairly frequently, and some explanation of what's intended would be helpful here (included on a WP:SPS "some people claim" basis).

I must have been asleep at the switch, or more likely, actually doing something related to Real World Activities that distracted me from noticing they were not valid edits - otherwise I would have reverted them, since they were clearly being driven by some ideological agenda.

It would be kind of nice to restore the material deleted from this article, which was apparently sourced and pretty extensive, but given that some joker with an IP address may come along and undo any work done under consensus at a moment's notice while raising lunatic claims of edit warring if they're reverted, I'm doubting that it's worth the effort (from my own personal perspective).

PS: Reading over the AfD discussions… it's hilarious. The hilarity of it all is unintended, and the need for counter-argument frustrating to anyone who doesn't buy into the ideology and wants to keep Wikipedia free of "party propaganda", but still!

"And I will not comment more about this. The situation of this problem of HBS Phobia that some TG people suffer from, it will be soon exposed widely on the internet, and eventually other articles will appear on Wikipedia and in other informational resources on the internet about the wide progress of this patient advocacy movement, so what you decide to do or not here will be seen in a short future as just something anecdotal in the history of this patient advocacy movemement."
— (from the 2nd HBS article AfD - usertag omitted - bonze blayk)

ROF…

thanks - bonze blayk (talk) 15:47, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Shortcomings of article in defining and elucidating transsexualism

Assuming that someone has no idea what transsexualism is, would they be able to learn what it is from this article? I don't think so.

I's love to go over the entire article sentence by sentence and explain what is wrong with each sentence that fails to communicate some concept or other, but given that the article is rather long, and I do not have as much time as I would like, I am just going to start at the beginning, and see how far I can get.

First sentence: Transsexualism describes the condition in which an individual identifies with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with their assigned sex, i.e. in which a person's assigned sex at birth conflicts with their psychological gender.

The sentence makes no sense in light of the fact that, overwhelmingly, what think about how someone comes to be identified as being of one sex or another, is that in most cases, the vast majority of cases, the sex of person is not a result of assignment, babies are not "assigned" a sex at birth, rather, adults look at the baby and see what sex it is, that is, they observe and describe the sex of a baby. Yes there are occasional exceptions but overwhelmingly the sex that we consider a person to be is thought to be the result of an initial description, at birth, not the result of an initial ascription. Sex "assignment" is overwhelmingly what people think happens when someone's initial described sex is not believed, and instead of considering the person to be the sex that they have been described as being, changes is labelling occur such that instead of being considered to be the sex that they have been described as being, they begin being called the sex that they have had ascribed to them, assigned to them. Without first defining "assigned" as being used in this context, the rest of the sentence fails to communicate anything to someone who does not already know what transsexualism is.

The second sentence also communicates very little, to anyone A medical diagnosis can be made if a person experiences discomfort as a result of a desire to be a member of the opposite sex,[1] or if a person experiences impaired functioning or distress as a result of that gender identification.[2]

I have a concise way of describing what is wrong with that sentence. Let's say someone felt discomfort in their back when standing with their left leg forward and their back bent over at a 30 degree angle, and they had a desire to be able to stand in that positions without discomfort. If I told you that "a medical diagnosis can be made if a person experiences discomfort as a result of a desire to be able to stand with their left leg forward and their back bent over at a 30 degree angle" would you think that I had communicated anything to you that wasn't terribly obvious? We have not been told anything about why their back hurts, or why it hurts when they are in the position described. All we are told is that if we go to a doctor, she can come up with a diagnosis. Doesn't say what the diagnosis is. Doesn't say how the diagnosis is determined. Just that a diagnosis can be made. We all know that that is what doctors do whenever someone comes to them complaining with some sort of discomfort. This sentence might be appropriate for an article on what doctors do, but it tells us nothing about transsexualism.

After reading those sentences, if I didn't know what transsexualism is, I still wouldn't know. I'd just know that doctors make diagnoses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomenclator (talk • contribs) 01:56, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Sex assignment is the generally recognized term for the process by which humans are assigned a sex at birth. Sex reassignment is a common term for people whose assigned sex is changed. Your concern about the first sentence would be better resolved at sex assignment. There are a number of diagnoses associated with gender identity and expression, but these are controversial and described in detail further down in the article. Jokestress (talk) 03:01, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Transsexualism no longer defined as a disorder in DSM-V

This is a groundbreaking change and must be included in this article. I could not see any mention of this in the previous comment. Apologies if it actually was mentioned and I missed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Korhanerel (talk • contribs) 11:25, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi Korhanere! You are quite right. Please be bold and write about it - using a good, secondary sources. With friendly regards, Lova Falk talk 09:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I just added a sentence with a link to the DSM-V fact sheet on gender dysphoria, since it looked like no one else had addressed this change yet. Funcrunch (talk) 00:15, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Funcrunch, I reverted you on these changes (the top ones) you made. Like my WP:Edit summary states, see the recent discussions at Talk:Gender identity disorder about this matter, especially the article move discussions. But to sum up, the DSM-5, which is significantly criticized by the medical community, does not change everything with regard to this "disorder or not a disorder" topic. And it's in the DSM-5 book as a diagnosable condition, regardless of the name change. I'm not sure what Lova Falk has to state about the matter now. Flyer22 (talk) 00:34, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the note - I will read the referenced talk page (which looks like it will take awhile!). I'm just glad to get the second part of my edit in there, as I saw no other mention in this article of the terminology change in the DSM-5 (whether or not the diagnosis is functionally different than GID). Funcrunch (talk) 00:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

You were better informed than I was, Flyer22! Lova Falk talk 20:52, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

The DSM V has been warped by political correctness and should not be followed. The correct book to follow is the DSM IV.

Article titles for transgendered people

This discussion may be of interest to readers of this talk page. Josh Gorand (talk) 23:57, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

That is here now. Mateussf (talk) 13:42, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Sex & gender confusion.

It is incorrect to define transsexuals as "ones who feel that they belong to other gender", because transsexualism is about body, and then gender (depending on case). Transsexualism differs from other transgender exactly because of that, desire to belong to other sex, not gender. Transsexuals often despise their own bodies, and there are transsexual people who don't care about gender at all. No wonder many transsexuals are actually rebelling against this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.148.110.209 (talk) 19:49, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

IP, you mean what the lead (introduction) currently states? It's going by what WP:Reliable sources state, though that first source (the ICD-10 source) is currently a WP:Dead link and needs to be fixed. Also keep in mind, that like the article shows, some sources define transsexualism differently than other sources, so there is the WP:Neutral policy to keep in mind. What wording would you propose for the first and second sentences, and what WP:Reliable sources do you have to support you in that wording change? Flyer22 (talk) 20:05, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Bangkok Post article fails verification

I tried to see if a URL could be added for this edit and failed to find the article on the Bangkok Post page. Since I was able to find the other recently cited article without problems, I wonder if this content appeared only in the printed edition, or if something else has gone wrong. It would be good if an established editor with access to the BP can confirm that this textbook scandal was, in fact, reported there. Thanks. Samsara (FA • FP) 13:54, 22 September 2014 (UTC)