Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss proposed policies and guidelines and changes to existing policies and guidelines.

• If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use Village pump (proposals).
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Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequently rejected or ignored proposals. Discussions are automatically archived after remaining inactive for two weeks.

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Policies on lists of fictional characters

I recently nominated List of Warriors characters for deletion. After a discussion on policy, it became clear to me that my nomination was not supported by policy, so I withdrew it. But I wanted to discuss the underlying policies here more broadly.

The article in question, which describes characters from a kids series with dozens of books, had grown to a remarkable 440,000 bytes long in March before being cut down to its current 35,000 by some very diligent editing. Clearly, the March version had some issues with WP:FANCRUFT. But under our policies on WP:SIZE and WP:CSC, these kinds of articles are allowed to exist even if they cite zero independent, reliable sources. Why? Because they are considered extensions/splits of the main subject of the article. So if Warriors (novel series) is notable, then List of Warriors characters is acceptable. This follows from WP:CSC #2, which states that standalone lists can work if "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria."

Of course, this issue affects many franchises. Look at List of The Sopranos characters, or List of Warrior Nun Areala characters, or take your pick from Category:Lists of fictional characters by medium.

These pages present a number of issues. They are magnets for bloat, tons of WP:OR and WP:SYNTH, un-encyclopedic writing, and general fancruft. Because of this, they regularly need attention from experienced editors, who must either spend hours trimming them down and re-instituting WP:SUMMARY style, or else nominate them for deletion (as I did), sparking pushback from page editors. These pages strike me as a basic loophole in our notability criteria, that allow huge lists to proliferate without ever coming close to meeting the WP:GNG. Some individual fictional characters are certainly notable - Tony Soprano, for instance, or Severus Snape - they should have standalone, linked articles. I would propose modifying the WP:CSC criteria to say explicitly that lists of fictional characters are not covered by the criteria. I'm interested to hear what others think about this issue. Ganesha811 (talk) 17:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Just as a general observation - this isn't a problem exclusive to character lists, this slow accumulation of cruft is an issue that affects huge numbers of our articles on fiction. I've had an eye on Elder race for a while because it is really badly exhibiting the symptoms, but I'm not really sure what to do with it: the article consists of a rather self contradictory intro where it lists a load of thing that an elder race may or may not be, followed by an enormous list of 90 examples, all unsourced, most not notable enough for their own article. It's a difficult issue to address because these articles are always going to attract drive-by edits adding their favourite character/example/thing to an existing list. Perhaps we need some stronger sourcing requirements for inclusion in lists of fiction things or a clarification of criteria 2, e.g. each item must have been discussed in a manner that relates to the list in at least one source? "Does not warrant a standalone article" doesn't mean "has no coverage at all". 192.76.8.91 (talk) 19:06, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Lists of characters should be still be striving for some type of sourcing, and if that sourcing simply doesn't exists from reliable sources, then there's very little reason to have a long detailed list of characters when they can be summarized in the main body of the article. We don't expect the list of characters to necessary meet the same level of notability as the work itself, but WP:V is still a required facet, and just using the primary work as the source doesn't cut it (articles should be based on third-party sources). Likely what has happened is that while we have significantly pared down on how much standalone fictional character articles, those meant for deletion end up merged into these lists, with all content left uncheck, and create the long lists. These pages do need to be within WP:NOT#PLOT aspects too.

But I know that trying to say that these lists need to show more notability goes against WP:NLIST and has been a long-standing issue. I don't think its necessarily the existence of stand-alone lists but the amount of cruft they accumulate that needs to be addressed first and foremost. --Masem (t) 13:32, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree that WP:CSC allows for a somewhat loophole to subvert WP:GNG, which very passionate editors can cite to add information that does not meet WP standards. Although WP:SPLITLIST does set forth that articles need to be kept "as short as feasible for purpose and scope," and that "too much statistical data is against policy," I think these principles can get lost in areas like fictional characters where editors are very passionate about adding information they find important. I'm not sure about a singular WP:CSC carveout for fictional character lists, because I think the problem is broader and should apply to more than one specific category. I agree with Masem that the underlying cruft needs to be addressed first. Fancruft and over-reliance on WP:CSC should not allow for the subversion of the basic principles of WP:V and WP:RS, which are meant to protect the integrity of all information on WP. Kind regards, PinkElixir (talk) 13:47, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I've been objecting to this for a while now. The reasoning seems to be that Captain Blamtastic being notable automatically entitles List of Captain Blamtastic characters to an article. As well as, no doubt, List of Captain Blamtastic locations, List of Captain Blamtastic villains, and List of fictional weapons in Captain Blamtastic. None of which require sourcing because the parent article allegedly contains the required sources (it doesn't) and dependent articles acquire sourced status through some vague notion of trickle-down referencing. The result is fans writing a lot of reprehensible TV Tropes garbage that can't be verified and is all original research. Reyk _YO! 14:33, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

The cruft around Harry Potter includes not only List of Harry Potter characters, which is so long it needs an alphabetized index and most of which are redirects to article sections, but also List of supporting Harry Potter characters, none of which have articles and which includes several character profiles that are longer than many blps and mention everything that character ever did. I do not understand why we would need a standalone list of non-notable fictional characters. I'd support requiring fictional characters to be notable enough for their own articles for inclusion in list articles. A list with no lengthy descriptions within the parent article should be plenty. —valereee (talk) 14:40, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

There are cases where in a list of characters, some of the characters may be sufficiently notable for a standalone, but other characters at the same level of importance to the work are not (case in point is Characters of Overwatch (but this is where I know we've tried to drop 3rd party sourcing all over the place) - in such cases, it makes no sense to omit the characters at that level just because they aren't notable. What is essential is two fold: that these lists need to be limited in how "deep" they go: major and maybe the next minor level of characters (eg if we're talking a TV show, the characters played by the starring and recurring roles and not limited use cameos or roles) to keep the cruft in check to start, and that their creation should be based on if a good chuck (but not necessarily all) can be sourced to third-party RSes. We shouldn't be trying to be complete character lists for a work if that's simply not supported by sources (which in 99% of the time, they aren't). --Masem (t) 16:54, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I think that's a question of Wikipedia:Balancing aspects, rather than verifiability or notability. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: I was reading through this thread and noted the link to Elder race. I PRODed that article after doing some searching for any sources which discuss the trope as a literary phenomenon (or a phenomenon in fiction more generally). I actually meant to RfD it, but the caffeine still hasn't kicked in yet, so I'll do that if someone contests the prod (which I expect). ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:07, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
  • @MPants at work: I don't think you'd have much luck getting an article deleted at RfD either...
    Interestingly your thoughts are the exact opposite of what I'd do, I was tempted to remove the enormous unsourced list of examples and turn it back into a stub containing the information that was present when the article was written, which does seem to have been sourced to the encyclopaedia in the "literature" section. I did think of prodding it, but the encyclopaedia suggested that there might be some decent sourcing out there (I couldn't find it though). 192.76.8.91 (talk) 19:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

    That was my issue. I thought there would be sources which were easy to find covering this, but to my surprise, this trope (as common as it is) seems to have very little coverage in the sources.

    My suggestion about trimming it to the list is based on the fact that I know several of the entries are explicitly described as "elder races" in the works in which they appear; if that were the criteria, we could maintain such a list in an encyclopedic manner.

    But that's literally the only way I can see this article not running afoul of our policies. The lede as it currently stands is just 1/2 OR and 1/2 wordy-expansion of the sourced content from the encyclopedia. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:20, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

    Give me a break, I despair when deletionists say they can't find sources for things like this. Clearly not really trying. The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Science Fiction and Fantasy has a seven page entry for "Elder races". I'm going to deprod this, if indeed it's survived this long. SpinningSpark 08:02, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm specifically looking at this bit from the original comment by @Ganesha811:

> these kinds of articles are allowed to exist even if they cite zero independent, reliable sources. [...] This follows from WP:CSC #2, which states that standalone lists can work if "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria."

I don't think that's true. It's possible to fail notability even if independent reliable sources exist.

CSC #2 is meant to cover things like a "List of minor Pokemon characters", in which we know something about the subject, but editors don't agree that it's enough for standalone articles. One common reason for this is editorial judgment, but another is that the independent sources don't contain Wikipedia:Significant coverage. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with WhatamIdoing here because it's also possible for a list article to be notable without citing any reliable sources, but I think policy pretty much requires at least one reliable source (maybe in the lede of the list) for the article to be included in the encyclopedia, while the entries themselves do not have to be notable for inclusion according to WP:NNC. However, entries still need verifiable sourcing if they are challenged or likely to be challenged regardless of whether they are permitted without notability or not. This is the current interpretation that I think many people get confused. I think the confusion around how to interpret it correctly is what needs to change rather than the policies themselves. Huggums537 (talk) 05:25, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

It is better to have a list article, than an article on every character. Also if secondary sourcing is flimsy, then please consider writing at Wikibooks instead of Wikipedia. Quite a few similar pages have already been transwikied there. (even after long past deletion). Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:10, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

What specific policy changes could we propose?

Masem, PinkElixir, Reyk, Valereee, IP editor - thank you all for your thoughts. I'm glad to see that this is an issue that others have noticed as well. What specific policy changes would help fix this? IP 192.76.8.91, I agree it is part of a larger issue, but it may be too heavy a lift to re-think how we approach all fiction - if we go one step at a time, we will probably get further. Do you all think that a change to WP:CSC criteria #2, saying "This criteria does not apply to lists of fictional characters/elements" would be effective? Or perhaps a requirement that lists of fictional characters be sourced to *secondary* sources only, so that huge amounts of primary-sourced WP:OR are no longer allowed? What other changes might work? Ganesha811 (talk) 13:06, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Starting with CSC#2, I think there needs to be emphasized that such lists when created still must meet WP:V with thorough sourcing to third-parties (and lists only sourced to primary works or poor RS are thus not appropriate), and when talking about fictional works, WP:NOT#PLOT still applies: these are not lists to get around the limitations on plot regurgitation that apply elsewhere. Thes are policy level set points that absolutely can be used there. Any further advice can then be included in WP:WAF (writing about fiction) to spell out what these lists should focus on, avoiding trivial level characters or details, etc but based on the principles of CSC#2. --Masem (t) 14:39, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Complying with WP:V does not require third-party sources.

This is one of the fundamental problems with this type of discussion, which turns up once or twice a year:

• Fact: Any given sentence/list entry about a book/fictional universe can fully comply with WP:V (and all related sourcing rules) if the content can unambiguously be found in the book itself.
• Fact: Most editors want independent/third-party sources in articles. (NB: Wikipedia:Secondary does not mean independent. We're basically talking about sources that the subject didn't create or pay to have created.)

Problem: There is no rule that says absolutely every article must contain a citation to an independent source. There isn't technically even a rule that says it must be possible to add a citation to an independent source to absolutely every article.

We have recommendations, and encouragement, and even a few written rules that say articles about certain subjects (e.g., businesses) must be verifiable in independent sources, but there isn't an overarching, absolutely-no-exceptions-even-for-your-special-subjects-we-really-mean-it-this-time rule that says that at least one fact in every separate page must be verifiable in independent sources.

Because of this situation, IMO if you want this article to comply with that standard, then we need to first create a rule that requires it. Until we make such a rule, we'll continue to have these discussions, with the one side correctly saying that each sentence is fully verifiable in an appropriate (primary+non-independent) source, and the other side complaining that it does not meet the unwritten, exception-riddled rule that most articles, about most subjects, under most circumstances, "should" contain an independent source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: Are you not describing WP:N? 192.76.8.91 (talk) 20:10, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

No. WP:N (you probably mean the GNG subsection of it) is a guideline, which some editors believe means that following it is optional. Also, there are alternative notability rules that undercut it. For three typical examples, consider:

• Wikipedia:Notability (academics), which says you can write an article about any university employee whose "academic work has made a significant impact in the area of higher education, affecting a substantial number of academic institutions" – and the method of determining this is: a Wikipedia editor says so. Consider also "The person has had a substantial impact outside academia in their academic capacity", which has the same rule for figuring out whether the person is notable. As far as PROF is concerned, once you meet these allegedly "objective" requirements, the entire article can be sourced exclusively to the subject's CV.
• For Wikipedia:Notability (sports), which says nearly all professional athletes are notable. For most popular sports, an athlete is notable if he is paid to play a game even for one second. Under those rules, it's perfectly fine to determine notability from the team's website, and to use only the team's website to source the article. (In practice, that's not what experienced editors usually do, but it's "legal".)
• Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Entertainers says any actor who has had "significant roles in multiple" films/shows is notable. All you need to prove notability is the film credits (which are a primary+non-independent source). For American actors, "multiple" is generally interpreted as "two".

We don't actually have a general rule requiring an independent source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, just a quick note that, per the first sentence and the FAQs at the top of the page of NSPORT, meeting sport-specific criteria only presumes GNG and GNG sourcing is ultimately required. The second sentence refers strictly to meeting WP:V and showing evidence the topic is likely to have SIGCOV. So the guideline isn't actually an alternative to GNG. I just wanted to clear that up since a lot of people have this confusion and it encourages creation and more importantly retention of indiscriminate database-like microstubs on athletes. JoelleJay (talk) 18:35, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, I'm not sure you're correct in saying that "Complying with WP:V does not require [secondary] sources." WP:V, under 'Original research', says "Base articles largely on reliable secondary sources. While primary sources are appropriate in some cases, relying on them can be problematic." Meanwhile, WP:NOR states "Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them."

Taken together, this suggests to me that articles primarily based on primary sources are not allowed under current policy. I think these cruft-accumulating lists of fictional characters are exactly the sort of problematic issue the policies caution us about. In-depth descriptions of fictional characters may be "verifiable" in the most literal sense of the word, but they usually are not verifiable in reliable, secondary sources, which is a real problem. Wikipedia is not a plot sponge. Ganesha811 (talk) 20:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ganesha811, I didn't say that, because I know that Wikipedia:Secondary does not mean independent. We will never make progress on this subject if editors can't keep those two separate concepts straight. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:03, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing, fair enough, you're right - "third-party" sources are not necessarily the same as "secondary" sources. But I'm not sure what difference that makes to the rest of my reply - articles based primarily on primary sources are clearly discouraged by current policy. Ganesha811 (talk) 21:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Third-party reliable sources are very frequently not secondary sources. Most of the content in your local newspaper is primary, for example.

It's also possible to have a secondary source that is not independent. A meta-analysis of your own prior research, or an analysis of all the reasons why your grandfather was the best _____ ever, would be secondary but non-independent sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:44, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Actually, WP:V does say "Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." (under WP:SOURCE). "base" here wouldn't mean every source has to be independent (which by nature has to be third-party for fictional works), but that should imply a significant majority of content should be based on those independent sources. When coupled with WP:NOT#PLOT, that strongly implies that lists of characters that only stay to in-universe aspects and otherwise dont include external sources are violating two key policies. --Masem (t) 21:50, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, WP:V makes a recommendation to have articles WP:Based upon independent sources. However:

• you know that recommendation is routinely ignored, and sometimes vehemently rejected, in all of the cases I mention above, and
• that still doesn't mean that "any given sentence/list entry about a book/fictional universe" isn't fully compliant with WP:V.

If we want every article to contain a citation to an independent source, we will have to change a policy to say "Add one or we will eventually delete it, even if you have an SNG rule/WikiProject opinion/20-year-long tradition that says you don't have to bother". And to make it happen, editors will have to agree that this is the right approach, even though that approach has some obvious downsides (e.g., making it much harder to write articles about professors who don't hire publicists). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:29, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we need a change in V or NOT, if we are specifically codifying issues with fictional works. The fact that WP:V is ignored does not mean it is right. A lot of our issues on fiction are a combination that pre-WP:N days, these were some of the most popular and largest pages that were written (it was routinely joked that we had more on Pokemon than severe world topics) and we're still seeing these linger, and that there's the monkey-see, monkey-do aspect that newer editors see these lists and think that's appropriate (or they're coming from TV Tropes or Wikia and think the same ideas work). We want to try to tackles these, but in the least disruptive manner to those that have maintained those. That we can do by altering CSC and WAF - guidelines, not policy - to be explicit about the expectations for lists of characters or similar material.

Also to keep in mind, we are specifically targetting the plot-related elements of a work. I can expect that you can find any random list of TV episodes and outside of ratings, it will be mostly unsourced. In that list, ignoring the short summaries, all those items (episode title, air date, etc.) are all things that can be sourced to the primary work, but that's because that's not the "fiction" of concern here. What we are worried about is keeping the short summaries concise there, and that's the type of thing that has to propagation to all elements involving a work's plot, whether on the main page about the work, a list of episodes, or a list of characters. NOT#PLOT specifically warns about this, and WAF echoes that. Unless you can provide the secondary or independent or third-party sourcing (it really doesn't matter), we do not want long summaries of a plot as that's just not encyclopedic. That's why when WP:V and WP:NOT are combined here, it clearly asserts that we should not be going into extreme depth about characters if they aren't discussed by outside sources, even if we can absolutely source that all to the primary work. --Masem (t) 01:43, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Again: WP:V is not being ignored for any individual sentence or list entry in that entire page. WP:V is the policy that says you can source a novel's plot to the novel itself, remember? Every single sentence in that entire page complies with WP:V. WP:V is about individual claims, not whole articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:06, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's realistic to rethink our entire approach to fiction in this discussion (which would be a herculean task), my thoughts were that I don't see why we should restrict this reform exclusively to lists of characters, I think that whatever is decided here should apply generally to lists of fictional elements be it locations, items, powers, storylines or whatever. Masem's thoughts sound very reasonable, I think we need some kind of clarification to point two along the lines of "It should be noted that "not notable enough for a standalone article" does not mean that lists of unsourced or primarily sourced material are acceptable. Each entry should be supported by secondary sourcing that demonstrates why it belongs in the list." (The wording could really use some work). Whether this should just apply to fiction things or more generally I'm not sure. 192.76.8.91 (talk) 19:36, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Sure, I see what you're saying - lists of fictional characters came to mind first, probably because they are more common than other lists of fictional things. The discussion could be renamed "Policies on lists of in-universe fictional things" or similar. Ganesha811 (talk) 20:55, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

192.76, could you make up an example of something a secondary would need to say to justify the inclusion of an item in a list? Imagine that you're writing a List of Harry Potter characters or one of the Lists of superheroes. What's the minimum that you want the source to say, to demonstrate that Harry Potter, or Superman, or whatever other obvious content belongs in the list? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:38, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Actually, inclusion in those two lists would be very different metrics. For the superhero list, since that's cross media, I would expect that inclusion must be based on either WP having a standalone article on the character specifically or multiple RSes that speak about the hero. Whereas for HP characters, that would be a level of discussion needed by consensus, but I would say it would have to start with all significant recurring characters in the books, major one-book figures, and the like. --Masem (t) 14:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

That's not answering my question about what a secondary source would need to say to justify its inclusion. The statement is "Each entry should be supported by secondary sourcing that demonstrates why it belongs in the list." Your proposal here about "significant recurring characters in the books, major one-book figures, and the like" means "use primary sources", and therefore does not answer my question. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:08, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

I think there's an ambiguity with the request in the specific example of List of supporting Harry Potter characters. Would secondary sourcing that demonstrates why it belongs in the list be a source that calls the character in question a "supporting character"? Or is it simply enough secondary sources that prove the character is relevant enough to be considered "supporting"? —El Millo (talk) 19:12, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo, a secondary source provides some level of analysis. I'm not convinced that a sentence that says "Alice is a supporting character" counts as analysis. A paragraph or two that blathers on about something that would please your literature prof would count, but merely labeling all the characters except the protagonist as not being the protagonist doesn't sound like an analysis to me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:11, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

I was asking in order for it to be unambiguous and clear that there was no need for a reliable source to explicitly refer to the character as a "supporting character", that being significantly covered by reliable sources was what was required to be considered supporting, not as opposed to protagonist, but as opposed to minor or non-notable. —El Millo (talk) 01:19, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Facu-el Millo, I think this is true because if it is being argued that inclusion is allowed without any secondary sourcing, then it certainly would be no problem allowing an inclusion using a third party source that says, "X was a supporting character" without any secondary sourcing analysis. This is the difference between 3rd party and secondary sourcing that WhatamIdoing was talking about earlier. Huggums537 (talk) 05:58, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Exactly so, @Huggums537. In terms of defining a character from a notable book as being "supporting" (vs main or minor), the sourcing categories we're looking at are:

• The book itself is sufficient sourcing (primary+non-independent)
• A passing mention in a book review is sufficient, e.g., "Supporting characters such as Alice..." (independent, but not secondary)
• We need an analysis that explains why this character should be considered "supporting" (secondary, although not independent if it's written by the book's author)
• We don't care about sourcing (unlikely, but I include it for completeness).

I think in many cases that the book itself is sufficient, and I'd be totally satisfied with a passing mention of the label in any independent source. I don't think we need a secondary source for this. But other people seem to think that we do (e.g., the IP who wrote "Each entry should be supported by secondary sourcing"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:57, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

The extent that WP:Ver handles any text IMO it can handle this as well. If not challenged, an item can go on the list with no cite. Once challenged, it needs sourcing to establish that it meets the criteria of the list (given that its presence is an implicit statement of that) And the same WP:ver sourcing rules apply. Which means that in limited circumstance, a primary source is enough. BTW the list criteria is the main mechanism for assuring that the list doesn't have zillions of trivia listings. North8000 (talk) 20:01, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

North8000, totally agree here, and think many editors, even experienced ones, kind of fall off track when they attempt to conflate notability with sourcing article content. Even worse, removing perfectly verifiably sourced content on the mistaken notion of said content not being "notable" when notability doesn't apply to content in articles. What they don't fully understand is that notability applies to whole articles not the content within them. Huggums537 (talk) 06:42, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

• I've got two points – firstly, these lists are very often not created by fanboys, but by regular editors. Why? Because they want to get the list out of the main article. Not everyone reading the main article will be interested in every minor character/thing, but readers going to a "list of <foo>" will quite likely expect it to be extensive. There is no reason in principle why we should not provide that service.

Secondly, it has long been the convention on Wikipedia that the source of plot summaries is considered to be the fictional work itself (MOS:PLOTSOURCE). To my mind, character descriptions fall under this convention. By all means demand citations for anything that sounds dodgy or SYNTH and cut down on fancruft. But we really should stop beating up people who get excited by fictional universes with threats of deletion and instead just quietly help them to write better articles. I also agree that lists associated with a main article don't really need to prove notability independently. However, a list that is not referred to a single, main article must show that "lists of <foo>" is discussed in sources. SpinningSpark 08:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't like it

I'm being sincere here. Please explain to me how any of the above is not merely 'I don't like it' or 'not in my encyclopedia'?

WP:PSTS/WP:PRIMARY and WP:CSC (among other things), would seem to apply here. So what, if anything, is that actual issue? - jc37 03:19, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

@Jc37, there may be some of that. We have expectations about the right outcomes, and we have expectations about what outcomes our rules will produce. When the rules lead us to an unexpected outcome, we feel like there's a problem with either our expectations for outcomes or our current rules. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:34, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

The use of kiswahili as a major language.

Kiswahili accounts for 75% of communication among East and central Africans. Tap into this language and we'll have a good platform of knowledge exchange. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2c0f:fe38:2400:1c52:f4a2:dfb5:c271:8b7d (talk) 19:55, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

IP, you may be interested in Swahili Wikipedia. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:16, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Original research exemption proposed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

WP:OR is Wikipedia policy.

I propose an exemption to one article, List of countries by English-speaking population. Proposal: The article List of countries by English-speaking population is exempted from original research policy by allowing editors to mix data from different sources and make calculations.

The article has a disclaimer that reads,

Some numbers have been calculated by Wikipedia editors by mixing data from different sources; figures not attributed to sources and given with a date should be treated with caution.

This exemption is very sensible. The article is useful with minor original research. Charliestalnaker (talk) 20:57, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support As above. Charliestalnaker (talk) 20:58, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
• Charliestalnaker Did someone raise a particular concern? -- GreenC 21:35, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
• This makes absolutely no sense. It is certainly possible to populate that list without engaging in original research. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:40, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - we give the sources, and note what they say. You aren't talking about OR, you are talking about WP:CALC and WP:SYNTH. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:50, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lee. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:00, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lee Vilenski. If attribution within the article is a concern, perhaps use hidden text or a robust notes section. Cavalryman (talk) 22:26, 13 September 2021 (UTC).
• Absolutely not if only because this is a dark path that once we start down will forever dominate our destinies and consume us.--Jorm (talk) 22:32, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
• Hell no. WP:OR is core Wikipedia policy. It shouldn't be ignored on a whim because someone thinks it is 'useful' to do so. And it is grossly improper to make such a proposal here without even discussing the issue on the article talk page first. How the heck are contributors to that article supposed to know this proposal has even been made? AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:44, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Jorm. This would be the proverbial camel's nose under the tent. RudolfRed (talk) 01:10, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
• Dear God, no per Lee et al. and as a spastic, reflexive response to this mention of one of my recurring nightmares. We have enough trouble with this approach even when we don't make a policy exemption for one page. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 02:25, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose No exemption is needed for mixing high quality sources as to create a total list, as long as each entry is sourced (or if only 2-5 sources are needed, they are given as a whole to cover the entire list). As long as no novel conclusions are reached (such as then trying to claim what % population of the world speaks English based on using the country population) then this is acceptable already. --Masem (t) 02:32, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Jorm says it better than I ever could. MarnetteD|Talk 02:36, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• Added comment by the original poster How about abuse of original research by piecing together sourced statements to come to a conclusion that none of the sources made or to suggest a pattern that none of the sources made? I say that should be strongly condemned as original research, particularly since the vote and comments above are uniformly against original research. Charliestalnaker (talk) 03:01, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion on presumption of notability of Olympic athletes

Hi, editors here may be interested in an RfC on whether all participants in the Olympics should be presumed notable. JoelleJay (talk) 11:44, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Courtesy vanishing and redirecting talk page to Wikipedia main page

When someone is given Wikipedia:Courtesy vanishing, is it normal for their user talk pages to the Wikipedia main page? The guidance notes that deletion of user talk pages is a rare exception (and needs a compelling reason) but says nothing about redirects to the main page - if they were not vanished then this practice would seem to go against the advice in WP:User pages "User talk pages should not redirect to anything other than the talk page of another account controlled by the same user..."?Nigel Ish (talk) 15:34, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Normally they just get {{Courtesy blanked}} if blanking. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:42, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Does it need to be undone if it has occurred, or is it OK to just leave it? In the example I encountered, the user:talk page was redirected by the user themselves to the Wikipedia main page a few hours before the rename was done as part of the vanishing - now the only way to get to the talk page history is via the user's contribution history (or presumably the contribution history of anyone else who has posted there.Nigel Ish (talk) 15:55, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I've undone it. It was indeed the only one. – Joe (talk) 16:20, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

INVOLVED and Appeals

As of current, WP:INVOLVED provides a caveat for admins engaged in administrative business as follows:

One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic area purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits that do not show bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic area. Warnings, calm and reasonable discussion and explanation of those warnings, advice about community norms, and suggestions on possible wordings and approaches do not make an administrator involved.

I believe this wording needs to be reworked. The reason I believe this is because the policy mentions no restrictions regarding specific cases of administrative behavior. One very important case is in the case of appeals. Currently, the policy as written allows for admins whose opinion has been incorporated in the decision of a case to then interact administratively (in deciding/closing way) on a subsequent appeal as a literal reading of the policy regards them as UNINVOLVED provided they are not the primary admin closing/deciding the initial case.

I believe this a significant oversight which creates the potential for abuse and favoritism, perhaps even leaning against neutrality. I would like to hear feedback from the community about this and whether the community feels a rewrite is in order based on my proposal or not, and if so, possible text amendments to the policy. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 23:46, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

While I would generally be inclined to agree (we'd still want to hear from them, just have them note it and not be counted for consensus purposes), however, I would note the example of ARBCOM, where all ARBCOM appeals are going to have some arbs who blocked them in the first place. Nosebagbear (talk) 14:06, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Exactly. Statements very welcome. Just not part of the admin consensus deciding the appeal. Sitting arbitrators could be given an exemption due to the nature of the position. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 22:43, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm struggling to understand what you are proposing. Could you give a (hypothetical) example of the kind of abuse the current text of WP:INVOLVED could allow? – Joe (talk) 14:19, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what situation @Gwennie-nyan is thinking of, but imagine that Alice Admin closes a discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, and then closes the appeal at Wikipedia:Deletion review as well, or that an admin blocks the same user twice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:01, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I can give you an actual example. But in many cases, admins weigh in as a group to determine an admin consensus for certain actions, especially in more formal processes like ArbCom/AE-related cases. Basically like WhatamIdoing described.

Imagine Admin A, B, C, and D all were part of the admins deciding (not merely weighing-in) an AE sanctions case against User X. Admin A closes the case and enacts the given sanction/remedy. User X appeals their case decision on some grounds. Admin B/C/D (choose one) who was part of the consensus deciding the case is now allowed, by current measure of the policy as written, to also weigh-in on the deciding (not merely giving statements) directly deciding how the appeal of the case goes. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 22:40, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

This is allowed under policy, and AFAICT generally accepted, especially at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement. For an actual ArbCom case, if a member of ArbCom happens to have been involved in the disputed conduct (whether as an admin or otherwise), then the ArbCom member will recuse from the case. But at AE, if you block someone for a violation, you can be involved in every part of every subsequent step in the process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:29, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Since the subject of the appeal is an admin action, admins who weighed in on what the original admin action have an interest on that admin action, which is why they should not be resolving an appeal of that action. However, that does not inherently mean they cannot act as an admin in the topic area, or with respect to the editor, in which the appealed admin action is taken. To try to put it more simply. The subject of an appeal is an admin action, not a topic area, nor a an editor. So admins who have weighed in on an admin action are involved with respect to that action, while not involved with respect to the topic area, and editor. --Kyohyi (talk) 14:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree. It is limited to the admin actions they specifically weigh-in on and the appeal of said actions. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 22:42, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

There's been some reasonable objection above to proposing a policy change based on an ongoing incident. I believe that appeal is now closed. In broad strokes:

• admins Alice and Barbara supported an AE TBAN against editor Zoe
• admin Alice implemented the TBAN
• editor Zoe appealed at AN
• admin Alice participated in the appeal as an involved party
• admin Barbara participated in the appeal as an uninvolved admin

I get Gwennie-Nyan's point about admin Barbara: isn't the point of an appeal to solicit the views of new, independent arbitrators? On the other side, do we have enough AE participation that fresh admins are available to review appeals after the regulars have opined in the initial AE request? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:39, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

No, the point of an appeal to AN is to seek the clear and substantial consensus of ... uninvolved editors that a sanction should be modified or removed (WP:AC/P#Appeals by sanctioned editors). Nothing precludes involved arbs, admins and other editors from expressing their views there, nor should it; it is the consensus that must be of uninvolved editors, which can but need not include uninvolved arbs or admins. NebY (talk) 14:01, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Can involved arbs or admins express their views as uninvolved editors is part of the question though. If not, the question is then: are admins who participate in an AE 'Results' section involved? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 14:36, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

For the first question, no, an admin is an editor and an involved admin is an involved editor. For the second question, AE sanctions are performed by a single admin, not by a panel like Arbcom, and administrators having discussed administrative actions are not normally considered involved for that reason alone (cf appealing blocks). But is that relevant? In practice, it would be an extreme case if only the views of admins who had previously discussed the matter meant there was no consensus to modify or remove a sanction, or to put it another way, if the views of other uninvolved editors formed a consensus to modify or remove, contrary to the views of admins who had previously discussed it. That wasn't the case this month. Has such a case arisen recently or in your memory? If not, shouldn't we leave it to the community to deal with it if and when it arises? If hard cases make bad law, legislating just in case a hard case arises is worse. NebY (talk) 15:23, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Your point about AE sanctions' single-admin action is a good one. I agree, but it seems there is disagreement below. As for relevance, I don't know! This could apply equally to AE and AN appeals, and it seems that a new interpretation of INVOLVED could affect a decent chunk of appeals. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 16:48, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

I rather disagree that it's just a single admin. Yes, just a single one imposes the actual sanction and limitations formally. However, in practice, this admin often represents the opinions of other admins who worked together to form an admin-consensus who express belief in a specific remedy or sanction to be appropriate for each case. Even if one of those admins formally imposes, the admin-consensus opinion is what they represent, and other admins which formed the consensus should not, in my opinion, attempt to consider themselves uninvolved admins for the purposes of appeals. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 23:21, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Please do not propose policy changes in response to a current issue. See "You already INVOLVED yourself there" in this WP:AN appeal which refers to this WP:AE request. Re the issue, I'll leave others to argue the philosphical background and merely note that Wikipedia works pragmatically—disputes often involve hard-to-follow and long-term issues and there is not a magic pool of admins with the time to study the history of a random problem. That means we often need to rely on admins who already have some familiarity with the particular problem. There is no need to change how INVOLVED works. Johnuniq (talk) 03:53, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

• Knee-jerk proposals in response to a single incident are almost never a good idea. Most admins do not review their own decisions, I don't see a serious, ongoing problem that this would solve. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:58, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

  INVOLVED works pretty well now, I don't see a need to change it. I often council fellow admins to be highly conservative when evaluating if they are involved or not, but basically the policy works as is. As for the example given above of closing an AfD and then closing the review of that at DRV, if any admin tried to do that, they would get slapped down pretty quickly; that's about as blatant a violation as you can get. I don't think I've ever seen it happen. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:30, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

  Regardless of however "jerk"-y the proposal is and whether or not it results in a change, it at least provides discussion of this case of behavior/action in regards to policy, and thus, if a future case of similar happenstance occurs, we have, at the very least, documented a prior discussion regarding this type of thing. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 23:25, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

• I agree with NBB's and Kyohyi's comments above. Generally speaking, no one should judge an appeal of their own actions. Levivich 05:40, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Sourcing Policy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I moved the discussion here so that a policy issue can be judged.Mohmad Abdul sahib 12:55, 16 September 2021 (UTC) ⤵⤵⤵⤵

User:Mohmad Abdul sahib, you copied a discussion (apparently, about the Buzzer article) from User talk:Just plain Bill#Hi although the last of that exchange was User:Just plain Bill suggesting you go to Talk:Buzzer. I see you have never edited Talk:Buzzer and tried to resolve the specific issue there. You have also not explained here what "policy issue [you want] judged". Additionally, you have ignored the statement at the top of this page that the purpose of this forum is to discuss proposed policies and guidelines and changes to existing policies and guidelines.

I have therefore taken the liberty of deleting the confusing exchange between you and Just plain Bill. I advise you to discuss matters regarding the Buzzer article at Talk:Buzzer, personal matters about Just plain Bill at User talk:Just plain Bill, and new policy suggestions, if you ever have them, here. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 06:05, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

▶There are commercial sites already, but they display scientific and studied materials without placing any advertisements. Commercial This is unfair. There are many sites that allow others to place their ads such as YouTube. The link is not considered commercial because of the presence of advertisements within the site. So, as this is allowed, articles free of ads must be allowed and are not considered commercial links because the site is commercial. There is a difference between a commercial article and a site commercial.Mohmad Abdul sahib 10:32, 17 September 2021 (UTC) Bumping thread for 7 days. Mohmad Abdul sahib 15:39, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

@Mohmad Abdul sahib, the advice you received was to post your concern to Talk:Buzzer. This page is "Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)", not "Talk:Buzzer". Please post your concern about an article on the article's talk page. If you need help figuring out how to post your concern at Talk:Buzzer, then try this direct link to the article's talk page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:29, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

▶WhatamIdoing You are not understand, not me!. I want to change the policy and put a clause stating that non-commercial links are allowed and not considered commercial links because the site is commercial!. This is to prevent the problem from recurring.Mohmad Abdul sahib 19:53, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The removing process of Techyan's links

In Chinese Wikipedia's related talk page, a wikipedian said:

(translated) The Foundation has said that any links to sites held by global blocked users should be removed. This issue is a snowball clause, actually.

— Wikipedian 1233 on Chinese Wikipedia

So, should I remove all related links? I have a bot program (with optional manual mode, which is perfered now in enwp) at [1], with the following config:

{
   "replaces":{},
   "replaces_regex":{
      "\\[https?(:\\\/\\\/)?[a-zA-z0-9_.]*?wmcug\\.org\\.cn.*? (.*?)\\]": "\\2",
      "\\[https?(:\\\/\\\/)?[a-zA-z0-9_.]*?wmcug\\.org\\.cn[^ ]*?\\]": "{{Redacted|Chinese Wikipedia OA2021}}",
      "(https?(:\\\/\\\/)?)?[a-zA-z0-9_.]*?wmcug\\.org\\.cn[^ ]*": "{{Redacted|Chinese Wikipedia OA2021}}"
   },
   "skipped_ns": [2600],
   "api_php": "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/api.php",
   "username": "Example@BotPasswordUsername",
   "botpassword": "LOL",
   "delay": 10,
   "summary": "Remove links since Techyan was GBBed, ask Emojiwiki for details",
   "find_method": "exturlusage",
   "m_exturlusage_defs": {
      "euprotocol": "https",
      "eulimit": 500,
      "euquery": "*.wmcug.org.cn"
   }
}

 Wiki Emoji | Emojiwiki _Talk~~ 11:21, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Emojiwiki: This question may be better off at WP:VPP ~TNT (she/they • talk) 11:30, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@TheresNoTime:Since I don't know how to move a conversation, can you help me to move it? ty--Wiki Emoji | Emojiwiki _Talk~~ 11:34, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Emojiwiki: Done ~TNT (she/they • talk) 11:37, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Has the WMF actually confirmed that this is policy? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:45, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Jo-Jo Eumerus:Not policy right now but is answered by WMF staff in English in zhwp page.—1233 ( T / C） 12:25, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Jo-Jo Eumerus and 1233:Ask 1233, actually I dont know (I only use commons sences)--Wiki Emoji | Emojiwiki _Talk~~ 11:54, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Are we talking about external links to wmcug.org.cn? There are only two and they are not important: link search. Johnuniq (talk) 23:23, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

@Johnuniq:Yes, BTW if this aproved, I will suggest this on all wikimedia sites--Wiki Emoji | Emojiwiki _Talk~~ 06:16, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

INVOLVED and topic area

A recent ban appeal tested our shared understanding of topic area as it's used in WP:INVOLVED. Some Wikipedians, mostly admins, expressed (to my reading) an understanding that topic area in this policy refers to the page(s) under dispute and closely-related pages. As far as I know, no editors/admins contested this reading as the status quo practice for admins. Other Wikipedians, mostly non-admins, clearly read topic area to mean roughly the same thing that it means when discussing discretionary sanctions. I strongly support the former, more narrow reading, for reasons I'll go into if it matters. More importantly, we have a non-trivial disconnect in policy language and reasonable interpretation.

It appears that "topic area" was first inserted in January 2011 (diff) in a rewrite that sparked this discussion. The editor making the rewrite clarified in the talk page discussion that her change from topic to topic area was not meant to broaden the scope of the policy. I am not expert enough in wiki-history to know, but were discretionary sanctions common at the time? Would editors mostly see the phrase topic area as a reference to DS?

If the narrow reading of topic area is the desirable one, I think it's sensible to return to the less-DS-y topics. This change would strike 'area' twice and lead to the relevant section saying "One important caveat is that an administrator who has interacted with an editor or topic purely in an administrative role, or whose prior involvements are minor or obvious edits that do not show bias, is not involved and is not prevented from acting in an administrative capacity in relation to that editor or topic." I would support even stronger narrowing language if others feel its needed to rule out the broad interpretation. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:24, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers, I think this is a case of Wikipedia:Policy writing is hard. She didn't "intend" to broaden it, but she inadvertently "did" broaden it. What's wanted is something in between "involved about this specific edit about whether this lab leaked a virus that caused the pandemic" and "involved in the entire broad topic area of medicine". This is definitely bigger than one edit, and could be bigger than one article, but is not as broad as anything and everything about the pandemic, or anything and everything about the pandemic.

Switching back to "topic" and perhaps adding a footnote that says that "a topic" could involve several articles might help. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:58, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 17:19, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

I think the bigger point of disagreement comes from a few of our very broad topics that are under discretionary sanctions. An admin can unilaterally remove people from a more narrowly construed topic by hitting the larger topic area. A narrow topic in which that admin may have a vested interest in. --Kyohyi (talk) 17:23, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

I always thought "topic" as used in INVOLVED and DS had the same meaning as "topic" as used in WP:TBAN. Whatever ambiguity there may be, please let's not resolve it by creating some distinction between the term "topic" and the term "topic area". Those should mean the same thing; if they had two different meanings, it would be confusing, and our WP:PAGs are already confusing enough. Levivich 22:51, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not sure about the phrasing that should be used, but I've generally interpreted it to mean the same thing as the rare, but occasionally-seen, "narrowly construed". In effect, that's the topic of the article, and other articles that are fundamentally an equivalent topic. Nosebagbear (talk) 17:08, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Transwiki to enwikt

Today I closed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Meal train as transwiki only to learn that Wiktionary considers the transwiki process obsolete and no longer accepts transwikis from Wikipedia (see this related TFD.) Is this true across all projects? If so it might be helpful to replace Wikipedia:Transwiki with some information to that effect rather than having the soft-redirect to Meta. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 18:02, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, even if enwikt doesn't want to do transwiki's - it doesn't mean that it can't be done to the hundreds of other WMF projects as appropriate. I suppose enwikt wants copy/paste done and is expecting that the author manually provide attribution somehow? In any case, I don't see this changing any policies here on the English Wikipedia. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:39, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@Filelakeshoe: as far as your AfD closure, can't see a enwiki policy problem either - the determination is that this is not an appropriate article here, and that we will provide a redirect to an enwikt page. If enwikt doesn't want the page, then it would be a broken redirect speedy deletion at that point. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:49, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

I'll drop a note at wikt:en:Wiktionary:Beer_parlour to see if they have any insight to add here. — xaosflux ^Talk 18:55, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

As an en.wiktionary admin, I can state that we simply do not want transwikis. We don't want copy/paste, either — we don't want to deal with another wiki's dustbin, as the entries that have been transwikied are rarely useful or appropriate. That's why I nominated Template:Copy to Wiktionary for deletion. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 19:08, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Tag-teams

User:Shrodger created: Margaret Martonosi, and User:Mmartonosi created: Susan H. Rodger. Others are new page approving each other's work. FWIW. .... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 18:58, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@0mtwb9gd5wx: what is the policy or guidelines proposal you are wanting to discuss? If you think this is an instance of inappropriate use of user rights, please move to WP:ANI. — xaosflux ^Talk 19:02, 24 September 2021 (UTC)