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Input would be appreciated at [[Talk:Alternate versions of Wolverine]]. Myself and [[User:RossF18]] are in dispute over how best to improve the article. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Input would be appreciated at [[Talk:Alternate versions of Wolverine]]. Myself and [[User:RossF18]] are in dispute over how best to improve the article. [[User:Hiding|Hiding]] <small>[[User talk:Hiding|T]] </small> 20:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

== Follow publication chronology before in-universe chronology? ==

After reading a great many articles on comic characters, I think I have identified a common factor that makes these articles more difficult to read and understand than needs to be the case: that character's "story" is told following the in-universe chronology. This would seem, at first glance, like no problem; after all, isn't that the way we write biographies of real people? There's a difference, however, in that the process which creates the real person's biography is reality, and it stays consistent, though our knowledge or understanding of it may change. The "biography" of a fictional character, however, is created by drastically different processes: the comic stories of the 1950s are not the comic stories of the 1970s are not the comic stories of the 1990s are not the comic stories of today, and trying to construct a single, chronological story out of the pieces created in all those different time periods too often creates a confusing patchwork.

What I would suggest is that, especially in cases where there are long gaps in the publication history, each portion/version of the story is told separately. When dealing with events that are later retconned, we may mention that changes were later made, but concentrate on telling the story according to what was "true" in that publication period. For example, we would cover [[Bucky]]'s existence as the kid sidekick of Captain America in the 1940s first, because that was published in the 1940s. We would not discuss the "revelation" that Bucky was actually a covert assassin during that time period until much later -- even though current continuity says that that is who Bucky actually was in that time period, it did not ''become'' continuity until over half a century ''after'' the original comics.

Not only would this make it much easier to untangle the multiple threads of comic continuity, with their retcons and occasional inconsistencies, it would also be more in line with the overall goals of Wikipedia: namely, writing about real things. Superman is not a real person. There is no actual Superman in our world. However, what ''is'' real in our world is the fictional character of Superman; we serve the goals of the project better by describing the existence of the ''fictional character'' of Superman, rather than describing it as if it was a real existence. -- [[Special:Contributions/209.6.177.176|209.6.177.176]] ([[User talk:209.6.177.176|talk]]) 01:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:42, 17 February 2008

Pending tasks for WikiProject Comics:

edit this list - add to watchlist
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Proposed deletions

  • 03 Jan 2025 – Professional Amigos of Comic Art Society (talk · edit · hist) was PRODed by Jfire (t · c): Fails WP:NORG. Tagged for notability for a decade.
  • 25 Dec 2024 – Jim Keefe (talk · edit · hist) PRODed by Lenny Marks (t · c) was deleted

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This list was generated from these rules. Questions and feedback are always welcome! The search is being run daily with the most recent ~14 days of results. Note: Some articles may not be relevant to this project.

Rules | Match log | Results page (for watching) | Last updated: 2025-01-03 20:17 (UTC)

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  • Cleanup: A cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category, the tool's wiki page and the index of WikiProjects.
  • Request Constructive Feedback: Lee Harris Artist for DC Comics 1940's, Cultural impact of Wonder Woman, Paper Girls
  • General: Remove OHOTMU/Who's Who material from character pages, provide fair use rationales for images.
  • Biographies: Check recent edits to biographies of living comics creators for changes contrary to policy. Click here for recent changes. Add citations to Unreferenced BLPs.
  • Article requests: Fenwick (comics), Khimaera (comics), Mutant Underground Support Engine, Bruce J. Hawker, Marc Dacier, Hultrasson, Frankenstein Comics, Dead of Night (comics) (redirects to MAX the Marvel imprint), Paco Medina, Mars et Avril (comics), Heart of Hush (now it is redirecting to Batman R.I.P.), Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper, Masters of American Comics, Robbi Rodriguez. more
  • Image requests: Andrea Di Vito, more
  • Expand: Arzach, Caspar Milquetoast, Clay Mann, Claypool Comics, Comics Britannia, Instant Piano, John Ney Reiber, Juan Jose Ryp, Mile High Comics, Natacha, No-Name, Ric Hochet, Richard Piers Rayner, Robert Loren Fleming, Ruins (comics), Scrooge's Quest, Sonic Disruptors, The Crusades (comics), Weird Western Tales, WonderCon, Super-Villain Team-Up, Tom Peyer, Kelley Puckett, X-Men Forever, Clan Chosen, Canardo, Kirby: King of Comics, Girl Comics, Le Vieux Nick et Barbe-Noire, M. Rex, Guillotine (comics), Renée Witterstaetter, Hal Jordan , more
  • Condense: Magneto (comics), Super-Soldier, Witchblade, Captain Britain, Mar-Vell, Tabitha Smith, W.I.T.C.H., Storm (Marvel Comics), Captain America, Deadpool, Man-Thing, Jamie Madrox (FCB section), Dial H
  • Update: Linear Men, Cable & Deadpool, Civil War: Front Line, Black Tarantula, Batman: Streets of Gotham
  • Clean Up: Comic Book, Darkseid, Iron Fist, Joker (character), Kingdom Come (comics), Raven (comics), Xavier's Security Enforcers, Spaceknights, Cerebro, more
  • Notability: Articles with notability concerns, listed at WikiProject Notability
    • For proposed deletions and mergers, disputes, and recently created articles, check the WikiProject Comics Notice board.

    Archive
    Archives

    Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/Archives

    Contested prod deletions

    Comicraft and Blambot were both deleted through the proposed deltion process. I have restored them, since I think they at least warrant an afd and in the case of Comicraft I think a redirect would have been preferable to deletion. I'd appreciate any help people can offer in fixing up the articles or watching the pages, or opinions to the contrary. Hiding T 16:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I read both of them. It would be interesting to learn more about Comicraft, but this sounded like an advertisement. Zoli79 (talk) 17:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I had a look at Comicraft, and tried to address that with some history, notable works, etc. ntnon (talk) 21:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Damage being done with CB

    Again, we've got a full out speculative article thanks to crystal balling at Trinity (DC Comics).

    An editor has moved the article that was there in favor of speculation about the yet-to-be-title weekly to follow Final Crisis. It's been PRODed, but it may go AFD.

    Also, the same editor is in the process of tagging for a yet-to-be-created cat Weekly comics. So far holding 52, Countdown, "Trinity", and 2000 AD.

    - J Greb (talk) 15:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I see no problems here - the weekly exists and has verifiable information about it. The Matt Wagner series is clearly notable. And weekly comics is a fine category. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually Phil, the major problem is how this was done —
    1. The weekly hasn't been published yet, so it's, of the three (I'll get back to this), the lesser item.
    2. The new article, as written, is minimizing, if not trivializing the older material to emphasize a future series.
    3. By convention, the article that was moved should have been added to. For examples see Countdown to Infinite Crisis and Countdown to Final Crisis both are titled by convenience (what will likely be searched for) not the legal title of the publication. The concession being that this is addressed in the lead. The Green Lantern/Darkstar/L.E.G.I.O.N. limited series and arc follows the same logic.
    What we are left with is a harder to find existing article, and a new article that is an exercise in "recentism" — focusing on the current and future material while minimizing or neglecting the previous. - J Greb (talk) 16:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a toss-up - a minor character, a vanity project by a respected creator, or an upcoming weekly by two respected creators. Ideally we'd just make a disambiguation page at Trinity (comics) and make the three articles separate. But of the three, I do expect that for the next year or two, the weekly is going to be what most people are thinking they'll get if they search on Trinity (comics). Phil Sandifer (talk) 17:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Not the character Phil, DC Universe: Trinity. A relatively hyped weekly story arc that ran through DC's "space" themed (Green Lantern v3, Darkstars, and L.E.G.I.O.N.) books in 1993 with a self-titled "bookend" mini. Arguably the title of the arc is "Trinity".
    I like the idea of a secondary dab — the primary is at Trinity (disambiguation) with the comics refed at Trinity (disambiguation)#Literature. If it goes that way though, 4 DC articles would break down as:
    • Trinity (comics) - the character
    • Trinity (story arc) - the `93 story
    • Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman: Trinity - the full title of Wagner's series
    • Trinity (comic book) - the weekly
    - J Greb (talk) 17:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    That's probably best, yes. Phil Sandifer (talk) 17:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    User: Asgardian

    I don't have time to deal with this myself, but I thought I'd point out that Asgardian is still deleting large chunks of articles. For example, [1], where you can see the article size has reduced from 20k to 6k. Also [2], where it's gone from 6k to 2.5k and there's no edit summary, no matter about a confusing one. This surely can't be right. He also keeps deleting the tie-in issue lists, I don't know if there's a policy regarding these but I for one find them useful and have asked him to stop before. I explained my difficulties with his methodology to him here, and suggested a better way of working, but he seems to be carrying on regardless and if others like me feel his methodology isn't great, then I'd like their support in trying to do something about it. As I said though I don't have time to deal with this myself - rst20xx (talk) 22:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Looking at the last week or so's worth of edits I can only see 4 or 5 worrisome points:
    • The Secret Wars edit you point to. And to be honest, the edit seems to be well intentioned: the toy tie-in push is important to the real world context of why the series came about.
    • The Contest of Champions edit which was a revert to an annom that used Asgardian's "Tidy up" summary for the original gut.
    • The Heralds of Galactus edit, though that's more of "I like this non-standard image better than that one" type.
    • The Quicksilver edit which is essentially a fall back to his last edit of the page, all be it more than a week later.
    • His insistence on using cryptic short hand for his image uploads. Maybe comics insiders can sus out what they are, if the image is next to the text. Lord help anyone else though. And this is with the uploads screen being clear about what is and isn't acceptable as file names.
    - J Greb (talk) 23:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    See here for Asgardian's reply, and my next reply to Asgardian - rst20xx (talk) 18:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Why we have so few GA and FA articles

    We need a serious analysis of why we have so few GA and FA articles. I think we need to develop a checklist of key problems which may affect comics articles in ways that may not plague other topics. Here are two three four that come to my mind off the top of my head:

    1. Conflicting histories. Just try explaining Batman's biography to outsiders given all the changes it's undergone over the decades.

    2. Alternate versions. We started developing Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/Character alternate version guidelines. The discussion, which had swelled to fill so much of this talk page, slowed down once we carried it over to the talk page for the guidelines.

    3. Due to the complexities of fictional character biographies, we don't follow the standard guidelines for writing about fiction. It's not realistic to think we can, but that still interferes with getting outsiders to look at our work and give it the seal of approval.

    4. Content keeps changing. Little Women is Little Women and Jo isn't doing much these days for fans to keep updating. As some users noted in a previous related discussion, articles about older characters who aren't doing much these days may offer our best hope.

    I'll admit that my own work on item #2 got postponed when I broke my arm. Typing paragraphs is still hard on me. I can edit a lot using programs like VP and AWB, but even typing this right now hurts. Anyway, I wanted to throw this out there for consideration. I'd love to see a much longer GA and FA list. We've certainly gotten people with plenty of enthusiasm. Let's direct it into something bigger. Doczilla (talk) 23:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    By the bullets...
    1. That shouldn't hinder an FA or GA. Hell, the example you cite is an FA. Hitting the bench marks has, or should have, more to how the information is presented (grammar, article structure, sourcing, neutrality, etc) than with the content.
    2. The AV situation needs to be sorted since a lot of it could be viewed as purely trivia. That's content that is hard to get past a GA or FA.
    3. Care to elaborate on that one? I'd think it wouldn't be too hard to keep the plot summaries (which is what a FCB is) down, even with complex, still in use characters.
    4. I'd say growing, not changing. Since the characters are still in use, "stuff happens", both in the real world and in the stories. If we are looking at this as it appears we should, ie real world context first, then the bulk of the content for articles should not change. As a "For instance": If DC ultimately losses the rights to Superboy, that becomes a new part of the various articles. It doesn't mean that we have to go back and strip out real world context and information just because DC no longer owns the character. As far as "in story" things... take "One More Day". If we're keeping the summaries minimal, that story just means a restructure to the article, not a removal of what no longer happened. That last may grate on some, but remember, this is a general use encyclopedia, not a bible to the DC or Marvel universes, or any others for that matter. Other Wikia have more or less stepped into those roles. Let's focus on the real world contexts.
    - J Greb (talk) 23:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    There are three main problems I see: overemphasis on fictional context, unfamiliarity with available reference material, and lack of understanding on how to write a decent article. Every time I work on a comics article I run into these problems, and it does become frustrating. Sinestro Corps War is what a GA should look like according to Wikipedia standards. Hulk (comics) is not, and frankly I'm embarassed by it. There is also just a general lack of initiative on improving articles. Most of the time what I see is the addition of plot details from the latest issues, rather than improving the prose or adding reference material from reliable sources. Compare Jack Sparrow or Jason Voorhies to your average comics character article and you'll see the vast disparity in quality. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    By the way, I've been doing a little work on Spider-Man: One More Day and have been gathering references to do further work on it. With the coverage it received it could definitely be a GA and possibly an FA. I should point out I haven't read the individual issues (because, c'mon, the plot was insanely stupid), but that might be a good thing when it comes to writing about it. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    To merge or not to merge?

    Would one of the admins associated with this project care to take a look at Changeling (Marvel Comics) and Morph (Marvel Comics) and weigh in with what is needed? Protection is due to expire in a day or two and, without looking too closely, I suspect there may need to be some history merging. Pairadox (talk) 05:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I'd suggest merging Morph into an article about Exiles cast members. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    There's already several sections discussing the merge at Talk:Changeling (Marvel Comics); I don't think yet another thread about which way the merge should happen needs to be started here. Pairadox (talk) 06:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a suggestion you can use over there. WesleyDodds (talk) 07:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Green Lanterns

    CfD for reference.

    While I fully understand the closure as G4 (and had been prepared to speedy it for those reasons), as I noted in the disucssion, I'd like this to be re-discussed, and here is probably as good a place as any. (I considered opening a discussion at CfD, a I've seen others do, but this should, hopefully, be fine.)

    I think that the GLC isn't so much a "super-team", like the Justice League, or the Avengers, but an intergalactic police force. Just as police may have symbols and tools of their trade, so too do the Green Lanterns. Even the Legion of Super-Heroes doesn't match up to this, as the GLC is more comparable to the Science Police than to the Legion. The same goes for the Global Guardians. A group of heroes/superheroes who join a team.

    That aside, one of the main rationales for deeming that Navboxes were better for team memberships than categories was "category clutter" at the bottom of the page, due to Superheroes changing groups. That isn't the issue here, especially since most (almost all) of these characters are only Green Lanterns, and those who join teams, with very few exceptions (Green Man and at one point, Hal Jordan) remain Green Lanterns even while members of some other team.

    I've been trying to think of anything comparable from other publishers, and all I can think of at the moment is another DC creation (an obvious GLC spin-off) the Darkstars.

    The Sentinels from Marvel maybe? They seem more like DC's robotic Manhunters. Few named, usually spies/undercover, with it mostly about the robots.

    At the moment, the best example I can think of is G. I. Joe.

    Anyway, I'd like others' thoughts on this. - jc37 09:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Observations:
    1. Otto had brought up a good point: most major comic book teams, at some point, have or had quasi-law enforcement or military status - JLA, JSA, Avengers, All-Star Squadron, Youngblood, Stormwatch, Checkmate, Suicide Squad, etc. A fair number have also treated membership as a paid profession - Avengers, Youngblood, Stormwatch, Checkmate, etc.
    2. The Legion does have parallels to the GLC, though it is a lot stronger in some of the reboot stories. One of the strongest elements in all three versions is that the Legion is a law enforcement agency.
    3. As a category, it does collect characters that fall outside the "force" - Alan Scott and Jade. Both fit for purposes of an list article where inclusion can be explained, but not in a cat.
    4. Most of the GLs between "Emerald Twilight" and "Rebirth" had migrated to the Darkstars. And yes, if the GLC is a viable cat, so is that one. And "Alpha Lanterns" looks like it likely will be as well.
    I'm not adverse to including the GLC and Darkstar characters as "Fictional police officers" (like the GI Jo characters should be under "Fictional soldiers"). But a separate cat... not the best solution. - J Greb (talk) 12:08, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    In order:
    • Just being "deputised", as it were, isn't what I'm looking at, especially as most heroes are, at one time or other, as a plot device, or even as a result of "super-heroics" (consider Superman, for example). In most cases these are superhoeroes who happen to also be deputised. It's not a sense of who the character is, it's just what's also happened as a result. The GLC members, on the other hand...
    • I disagree slightly due to the above, but then I also think the LSH (Note I'm talking about the 30th century. L.E.G.I.O.N. is a whole other thing...) might also be an exception due to being fairly distinct. (Most of the members have only been members of the LSH, with the LsubH, being an alternative. And of course, Rond Vidar, who happens to be a Green Lantern : )
    • Jade (well, actually...), Alan Scott, The Emerald Empress, the Floronic Man, Thom Kalmaku, and anyone else who has been "touched by the green" are not members of the GLC (though most of those have been supporting characters from one time or other).
    • Sure.
    • Well if they were all placed in Fictional police officers, I'd immediately suggest subcategorisation due to the size of the sub-group(s) : )
    Any other thoughts? - jc37 03:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I tend to be skeptical of in-universe categorizations, but on the other hand tend to think that a number of team-based categorizations are useful ways of organizing topics. What seems to me relevant is less the nature of the Green Lantern Corps as a fictional entity (it's a fictional entity, and that makes it largely a poor choice for categorization to me) than its status as a particular cultural institution. A category consisting not only of characters but Green Lantern titles, major creators, etc. would make a lot of sense. A category of "members of this fictional organization" does not. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I could see the categorization, if there weren't an extant list which served the same purpose. Having said that, I do think Phil's idea above of including titles, creators and whatnot would probably be a better one, although there would almost certainly be a disagreement fairly quickly about who qualified as a "major" creator. John Carter (talk) 21:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Two problems:
    1. Consensus through CfD has been that cats aren't for collecting characters, regardless of what else is in the cat. Mainly this has been hit on with supporting characters and foes, but it has also hit teams (the Legion cat hit this one).
    2. Consensus through CfD has also been against writers and artists being catted as a variation of "Performer by performance".
    It's going to be very hard to buck those, especially since this project had a strong hand in the first. - J Greb (talk) 00:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I rather strongly disagree with saying "Consensus through CfD has been that cats aren't for collecting characters, regardless of what else is in the cat."
    We have quite a few "Fictional Xs".
    And I'm suggesting that the GLC is one more, and isn't a "Super-team" as generally defined. It's more comparable to a police or military force, rather than a super-hero team. - jc37 07:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Let me re-phrase that — the CfDs that have concerned publication titles or character/team names have thrown out supporting characters, foes, and team members. The "Fictional 'profession'" cats have been a sore point for some editors due to cartoon characters like Mickey, but those have never gotten past the grumbling stage. - J Greb (talk) 11:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Just to clarify: I would strongly support listifying all character (and location, and equipment, for that matter) categories. (And would love to see some guidelines created to that effect). But that's not the situation we have now. I'm just following the apparent current convention, and based on that, I think that it's incorrect to lump the GLC, and other uniformed "forces", with the Super-teams. - jc37 21:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Marvel comics work group

    Heya.  :) Just figured that I would mention that I have added more articles to be assessed to the Marvel comics work group page, as well as a few more image requests to my Images page. :) BOZ (talk) 16:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    If there are no objections, I can file a Wikipedia:Bot requests to have all the articles at least tagged. John Carter (talk) 20:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure - you mean the images or the assessments, or both?  :) BOZ (talk) 23:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm already trying to get a bot licensed to do this. Hiding T 14:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Steve Gerber

    Wow... In case you hadn't heard already, I just happened to be browing the Steve Gerber article, and it seems he passed away this weekend. BOZ (talk) 17:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    WAUUUGGGHHHHHHH!!!! Wotta revoltin' development. The guy was unique. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Amalgam character PRODs

    The following articles were put up for PROD yesterday: Skulk‎, Jade Nova‎, Shatterstarfire‎, All-Star Winners Squadron‎, The Whiz (comics)‎, Sgt. Rock (Amalgam Comics)‎, Iron Lantern‎, Challengers of the Fantastic‎, Lobo the Duck‎, Generation Hex (comics)‎, Bat-Thing‎, X-Patrol‎, Spider-Boy‎, Speed Demon (comics)‎, Magneto (Amalgam Comics)‎, Thanoseid‎, Ultra-Metallo‎, Green Skull‎, Super-Soldier‎, Dark Claw‎, Doctor Strangefate‎, Judgment League Avengers‎, Catsai‎, Dare The Terminator‎, Green Guardsman‎. I thought the consensus for Amalgam characters was merge, not delete? (Some of the prods may have been removed, but some are definitely still there; I did not check all.) 204.153.84.10 (talk) 18:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    After a discussion with the editor who prodded them, confirming that his intention was to find someplace to merge them, I have deprodded them all. I have no particular knowledge or interest in the subject, but it is pretty obvious that at least some of these articles cannot stand on their own, and those who know how to merge them should do so. My guess is that they are very likely to be very soon put up for AfD--it is generally politic to try to improve them first, if that is possible & desirable.DGG (talk) 00:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Some of them are still prodded. BOZ (talk) 01:45, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Never fear, I took care of the last three. 207.229.140.148 (talk) 01:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Who Drew This?

    Rather than get into a pointless edit war, I've decided to ask around because maybe I am wrong. Who drew this image: Jack Kirby, John Byrne, or someone else? 204.153.84.10 (talk) 18:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    I'd wager on Byrne... it looks like a scan and cut from one of the bound OHOTMU. - J Greb (talk) 00:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree, and it's the one currently on Doctor Doom's page. BOZ (talk) 01:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    No way that's Kirby - the perspective is too realistic, and the pose too non-dramatic. Phil Sandifer (talk) 01:37, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Certainly looks more like this than this. Could conceivably be Terry Austin (there's a portfolio Doom at the MarvelDatabase), though. The MarvelDatabase seems very poorly credited. ntnon (talk) 03:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    hrm... I'd say the spread on the Byrne official site is enough to justify yanking the image in question — can't use the OHOTMU pics. - J Greb (talk) 03:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd go with Byrne. The legs look very Byrne. Hiding T 14:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I guess it is Byrne, then. But why can't we use pics from the Marvel Handbook? Fair use is fair use. David Fuchs (talk) 20:27, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair use is indeed fair use which is why we can't use images from the Marvel Handbook. We are directly infringing on the purpose. If you have a look at policy on image use, the second point is that Non-free content is not used in a manner that is likely to replace the original market role of the original copyrighted media. The Marvel Handbook is an encyclopedia/guide/reference work, something we are as well. Therefore we using it exactly in a manner which replaces the market role of the original image, namely to illustrate an encyclopedic article on the character. This point of policy is based upon the fourth point of the fair use doctrine enshrined in US legislation in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 107, specifically that the factors to be considered includes the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. I hope that clarifies why fair use law means we cannot use these images. Hiding T 20:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    ←Well, then by all means delete it and find a representative pic of Doom. David Fuchs (talk) 02:37, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Is there a non-super heroes WikiProject?

    I'm wondering: Is there? LWZ (talk) 20:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    There are projects for various publishers and regions of comics, including the non-superhero titles, but no specific group devoted exclusively to no-superhero characters. I think part of the problem there might be the comparative lack of interest. If there are any particular genres which you think might deserve such attention, you might want to post a proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals and maybe leave a message here with a link to that page to see if there's enough interest to start one. John Carter (talk) 20:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think starting a separate non-superheroes project would weaken both projects, but would love to see some non-superhero workgroups established within this project. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    There are a lot of non-superhero projects: Comic strips, Comics creators, Webcomics, British comics, European comics, World comics
    WikiProject Comics/Workgroups
    Zoli79 (talk) 22:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    From the hyphen between non and super and the space between super and heroes, my interpret of what the anon meant was to ask if there is a project regarding heroes (whether costumed or otherwise, I have no guess) who aren't super-powered. Doczilla (talk) 01:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Could be a typo and they meant Heroes, the telly program? They have a project at Wikipedia:WikiProject Heroes. However, looking at the contribs, I'd say the user is after an indy or alternative comics project or workgroup. I've never seen a definition of alternative comics I like, but if people think it's worthwhile... Hiding T 14:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the suggestions Zoli79. I've looked into that Comics creators project, but it seems pretty dead. Hiding and Doczilla, are you really having trouble figuring out what "non-super hero" means, our are you just being jerks because I'm new here? LWZ (talk) 16:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think we are being jerks, I think we were just trying to be helpful. Since you are new, you may not be aware of our assume good faith guidance. It's worth a read and saves the time and trouble of working out if someone is being a jerk. You just assume they aren't, unless they really really make it obvious. :) The comics creators work group isn't dead, it is merely new and looking for blood. Feel free to be that blood. I know Tenebrae and myself do a bit of work on creators, and I am sure there are a few others out there. The work groups are a new thing for us and we're all finding our feet on how they work. BOZ has made excellent progress at the Marvel work group, so if you need a heads up on what to do with a work group, you might want to leave a message for BOZ at User talk:BOZ. Hiding T 16:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    You didn't answer my question about the source of your expressed difficulty in figuring out the meaning of "non-super heroes." Were you really having trouble figuring out what "non-super heroes" means? Or were you just acting like a jerk? Also, your "I think we were just trying to be helpful," smells like obvious bullshit because you weren't even talking to me directly but instead talking about me in the third person. (Did someone named "Doczilla" really refer to me as "the anon" because I'm signing on with my initials?) This all makes me feel pretty unwelcome in your All-Star Winners Squadron‎ Green Lantern Club House of Dr. Doom. If that was your goal, congratulations. LWZ (talk) 17:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Relax. Nobody was trying to be a jerk; on the contrary, people were trying to be helpful. People were confused about what you were asking because, as stated, there was a space between "super" and "heroes" in your question, and they were just trying to answer it in as many ways as possible, because they wanted to help you. People were trying to go beyond a short response and give as complete an answer as possible. Attacking people for trying to help you just makes people not want to help you, and it's also against Wikipedia policy; it's like asking a friend to borrow two dollars and then getting mad because they offered to lend you three dollars instead. —Lowellian (reply) 17:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh, well then in the spirit of just trying to be helpful, I'll point out that "A superhero [is] (also known as a super hero)". And thanks for your participation, but how would you possibly know what two other people were trying to do? I think Hiding and Doczilla probably have a better idea of what their motives are and can provide a more accurate response as to whether they were honestly confused and thought "non-super heroes" might mean non-super episodes of the TV show Heroes or whatever. And then they can explain why they thought the best way to be helpful to me was to talk about me rather than to me. And it's actually very little like a friend giving me extra money, and a lot more like as if I were asking complete strangers for directions to the gas station, and then they talk to each other about whether I might mean the train station where everyone has bad gas, or maybe a radio station made completely of helium. And then I say "Are you really that confused, or are you just trying to be jerks?" and then they so "No, we're just being extra super helpful to you." LWZ (talk) 18:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    While I acknowledge that you might have a point in the above, I believe it is reasonable to not insult those who you are asking for help from. To specifically answer your question as I see it, no, there is no such group, as Corto Maltese, Dakota North, Tintin, Two-Gun Kid, and several other characters could all fall within the term "no-super" hero, as you haven't particularly defined "Hero" in this context. For that matter, the characters from the old Night Nurse (comics) four-issue series might qualify as well. Right now, all characters are covered either by their specific publisher (in the case of DC or Marvel), place of origin, or media (like webcomics). There is currently one specific project for a specific hero, Superman, and some projects related to characters who have appeared in comics, like Star Trek, Star Wars, G.I. Joe, and the like. I think the current consensus is that trying to create groups based on "types" of characters or genres hasn't yet been done. There is the possibility, albeit a remote one, of creating, for instance, a western comics, subproject, detective subproject, romance comics subproject, etc., although I doubt if there would ever be much activity. You would be free to propose any such projects and perhaps find out otherwise, but the current organizational model has not been based on "types of charcters" but rather publisher or area of origin. John Carter (talk) 19:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    For all this commotion, LWZ still hasn't indicated what this is about. A Hello Kitty WikiProject would be non-superheroes. (Yeah, I said that in third person. We talk to everybody when we talk on these pages, not just the person who started the thread.) Wryspy (talk) 21:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I think I made it pretty clear what my question was about: Whether there is a non-super heroes comics WikiProject. This one, called simply "WikiProject Comics" seems to be the place to go to when someone has a question about super hero topics like the JLA teleporter, or who drew which picture of Dr. Doom, Challengers of the Fantastic‎, Bat-Thing‎, X-Patrol‎, Spider-Boy‎, Steve Gerber, Green Lanterns, Changeling (Marvel Comics) vs. Morph (Marvel Comics), User: Asgardian deleting parts of The Secret Wars and Contest of Champions articles, Trinity (DC Comics), and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mister Negative. So, it seems pretty clear that this is the place for super hero comics discussion, and I think my question was pretty clearly about where the non-super hero comics discussion is supposed to go. Clear enough that Zoli79 could direct me to where the other comics projects are, clear enough that Phil Sandifer could say he would "love to see some non-superhero workgroups established," and clear enough that John Carter could point me to Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals and even directly refer to me as "you" rather than "the anon." LWZ (talk) 22:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm also new here, but I can understand, if people not interested in superheroes get frustrated or just simply discouraged, because most of the discussion around here is about superheroes. Or just take a look at the task list. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against superhero comics, it's just that usually fans of that type are far more enthusiastic. Maybe there should be a wikiproject on superheroes in general, and other projects as superman, dc, marvel could be part of that? Zoli79 (talk) 22:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Not necessarily a bad idea, but it would take most of the interested editors away. Like it or not, there are a lot more people indicated in Batman articles than, say, Prince Valiant or Outlaw Kid articles. If we were to separate out the costumed heroes, which I think is probably a more accurate term, although I still can't be sure how LWZ defines superheroes or heroes so I can't know if s/he would include Batman as one or not, we would probably lose what attention to the other articles we can get from those editors who are primarily interested in the costumed heroes, and the articles would almost certainly suffer on that basis. John Carter (talk) 22:50, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I was also unclear about what you were asking, and rattling off a dozen projects of what you consider super-hero project topics didn't help. Do you mean a project that would focus on non-super characters, or a project that focuses on non-super series? Listing what you meant (romance, western, etc.) would have helped clear things up. I think Doczilla and Hiding politely asked for clarification, even if Phil knew what you were asking about right away. Since you said you're new, I'd recommend not taking people's comments negatively unless it's pretty obvious, and calling people jerks is definitely going to make things more difficult when trying to deal with others. I've learned my lesson there. joshschr (Talk | contribs) 22:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    When all it says at the very top is "Is there a non-super heroes WikiProject? I'm wondering: Is there?" there's no reason for anybody to make any assumption about what LWZ means. The word comics does not appear in the header or that question. Is this heated discussion over the meaning of one little question really a good use of anyone's time, though? Wryspy (talk refraining from continued stoking of the fire now...) 01:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    And the answer to the first question, as I've said a few times now, is "No." One could failry assume that a message on the talk pages of a comics project mentioning super-powered characters, who basically occur primarily in comics, meant to deal with comics characters. It wasn't posted at the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Novels page, so it's a fair assumption non-super comics heroes is meant. Taking into account "other media heroes", including the likes of Robin Hood, that might be a decent idea, but there are already a lot of projects dealing with individual "heroes": James Bond, King Arthur, Sherlock Holmes, several individual TV shoes, and the list goes on. And there would still be the definition of "heroes" to work out. Presumably it means more than "protagonist", but there would need to be some sort of definition there. John Carter (talk) 02:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Questions about JLA teleporter

    In what issues were the first appearances of the JLA teleporter pre-Crisis and post-Crisis? Who invented it or what technology was it based on, again, pre-Crisis and post-Crisis? I figured I'd have a better chance of getting an answer asking here rather than on the Reference Desk, since this is really specialized knowledge. Thanks. —Lowellian (reply) 17:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    No answers? C'mon, someone must know... (I've now crossposted the questions to Talk:Justice League as well.) —Lowellian (reply) 19:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    If you look at the DC Database [3], they don't have an article for it, so I don't know where you'd find that info. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 20:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Out of control bot

    So Betacommandbot has apparently tagged some 17,000 images over the last couple of days. I'm tired of seeing perfectly valid images disappear just because some bot has decided that what was good a year ago isn't today. Enough so, that I'm willing to break my long standing prohibition against dealing with images and try to update some of them myself. So what new documentation do I need to provide? An example with a diff would be good. Pairadox (talk) 21:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    One issue that triggers the bot is that it can invoke WP:NFCC#10c, when it sees that the rationale is missing a declared article link which maches exactly the "File links" found at the bottom. A spelling error or omission of parenthesis, or if the image has moved location, article changed name etc. the bot has cause to tag "invalid rationale". Here's a functional diff [4] Thanks for breaking prohibition. MURGH disc. 22:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I will agree that any help is appreciated - It's fairly time consuming, and I don't always have the time to make to get to it. Plus, a lot of these images won't last long if they don't get a FUR in time. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 15:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    The first step to creating more comics GAs and FAs

    Since there is a comparative lack of FAs and GAs in the project (and some of the current FAs and GAs are creaky and aren't of the best quality), I'd like to help push along the effort to increase the number of quality articles in the project. I've written or co-written six Featured Articles in the last year, and helped four articles pass FAR. There are some tactics involved in writing FAs that are useful in any field, be it comics or music, poltiics or science, and so forth.

    The key to creating more FA and GA comics articles is sources. The main kinds of sources of use for this project are: books about the history of comics, coverage by mainstream media (newspapers like The New York Times or news websites like CNN.com or BBC.co.uk), peer-review academic papers, reviews and article by reputable comics press (The Comics Journal, Alter Ego), documentaries and special features on comics-related video releases (I hear the documentary feature on the animated Superman: Doomsday DVD is pretty good), and behind-the-scenes extras in comics (typically in trade paperback collections).

    There's a couple essential books that should be tracked down if you want to write a comics article (I'll add more sources as they occur to me):

    • Comic Book Nation by Bradford Wright - This is a sociological study of the relationship between comic books and American culture. Started as the author's thesis. This is an excellent source because it utilizes footnotes indiciting the author's sources, something sorely lacking in most comics-related articles. Covers all the big points: the birth of comic books, Superman, World War II, EC, the Comics Code, the "Marvel Age", Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns, the rise of the direct market.
    • Various comic book histories by Les Daniels - Daniels has written histories of both Marvel and DC Comics, and he has written comprehensive histories for Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. I see the last three books in practically every major bookstore I visit, and they should be the definitive sources and primary point-of-reference for any article having to do with Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman and their supporting characters.
    • Superheroes: A Modern Mythology by Richard Reynolds - Exactly what it says. If you're writing an article on a major superhero or mabye just working on Superhero, this is a useful source for critical analysis.

    Just as important as familiarizing yourselves with print sources is familiarizing yourselves with web sources. Your first stop should not be comics blogs or message boards. Your first stop should be mainstream media sources. Of course comics don't get a lot of coverage there, but whatever you can find will be the most valuable. Websites you want to search for information at are nytimes.com, time.com, cnn.com, msnbc.com, bbc.co.uk, guardian.co.uk, usatoday.com, and EW.com. There are also a few sites like findarticles.com where you can search for articles (although you might have to pay for them). Once those are exhausted, move on to the major comics news sources: newsarama.com, comicbookresources.com, tcj.com, and ign.com. Sales/order figures can be found at the other sources, along with publishersweekly.com. WesleyDodds (talk) 06:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    You can use google to search comics related news sites as well. Using Wolverine as an example: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&rls=en&hs=gGu&q=site%3Asilverbulletcomics.com+wolverine&btnG=Search http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&rls=en&hs=FwE&q=site%3Acomicbookresources.com+wolverine&btnG=Search . You can also get rid of forum hits like this http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&rls=en&hs=JIu&q=site%3Acomicbookresources.com+wolverine+-forums&btnG=Search . This can be a good way to find reliable articles on less famous comics characters. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 06:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've got on my book shelf above the computer the following works: Brian Walker's the comics which is bloody good for comic strips, as well as Les Daniels' Sixty Years of the World's Favourite Comic Book Heroes, Martin Barker's Comics: Ideology, power and the critics, Garriock's Masters of Comic Art, Charles Hatfield's Alternative Comics, the Varnum/Gibbons edited The Language of Comics, Pictures and Words by Ronnie Bell and Mark Sinclair, Dangerous Drawings a book of interviews, Strips, Toons and Bluesies by Dowd and Hignite, Graphic Novels and Great British Comics by Paul Gravett, The Penguin Book of Comics, The Essential Guide to World Comics, the Masters of American Comics book which accompanied the recent exhibition and Roger Sabin's Adult Comics and Comics, Comix and Graphic Novels. I also have a complete run of Comics Journals back to 235 and patchy coverage back to 67, as well as a number of Alan Moore (less so) and (mostly) Grant Morrison interviews. I also have access to a UK newspaper library which goes back to the mid nineties. So if anyone ever needs anything that they might cover, feel free to ping me on my talk page. Hiding T 14:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Does anyone have a copy of the Slings and Arrows guide? That would be useful for some of the "lesser" series. John Carter (talk) 16:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    You'd also want anything published in ImageTexT, which is here. There's also, offline, the International Journal of Comic Art and The Comics Journal, both of which are quite good. (ImageTexT is unique among the three in that it is a peer-reviewed academic journal - IJOCA only has editorial review, and The Comics Journal is neither peer-reviewed nor academic as such.) Geoff Klock has a decent book called How to Read Superhero Comics and Why. The Umberto Eco article on Superman is great, and only has a sentence about it in Superman. There's a good history of Milestone Comics by Jeffrey Brown that isn't cited in that article at all. Pete Coogan has a book that I'm shamefully blanking on the title of. And Danny Fingeroth's ouvre would be a great resource. Off of superheroes, Charles Hatfield's Alternative Comics is a milestone text. Trina Robbins has some great histories of women in comics, though I'm not sure how many are in print. Phil Sandifer (talk) 17:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Second that. It's hard to find sources for minor subjects without running into useless stuff. David Fuchs (talk) 20:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Images

    A few images I've uploaded have been queried for fair use. The copyright owner, Rebellion, has given explicit permission for all such images to be used. This is the second or third time these images have been queried. Frankly, I don't care enough to get into the whole mess again, but maybe a standard for fair use could be agreed and applied and kept to for longer than a few months? Vizjim (talk) 07:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Scroll up a little to the "Out of control bot" heading. :) BOZ (talk) 13:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    We don't apparently want images where we have been given explicit permission anymore, sadly. I think this was a policy change from either the board or Jimbo, because it affected commercial re-users of our material who may not have the permission. So all images have to comply with Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria period. I hope that explains a little better what is going on and why. I too have added images and gotten permission from Rebellion, I have even notified the foundation, but as far as Wikipedia is now concerned, that's no longer necessary or relevant. Hiding T 14:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    And I thought that my country (Hungary) has the most impossible bureaucracy. :D Zoli79 (talk) 18:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Alternate versions of Wolverine

    Input would be appreciated at Talk:Alternate versions of Wolverine. Myself and User:RossF18 are in dispute over how best to improve the article. Hiding T 20:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Follow publication chronology before in-universe chronology?

    After reading a great many articles on comic characters, I think I have identified a common factor that makes these articles more difficult to read and understand than needs to be the case: that character's "story" is told following the in-universe chronology. This would seem, at first glance, like no problem; after all, isn't that the way we write biographies of real people? There's a difference, however, in that the process which creates the real person's biography is reality, and it stays consistent, though our knowledge or understanding of it may change. The "biography" of a fictional character, however, is created by drastically different processes: the comic stories of the 1950s are not the comic stories of the 1970s are not the comic stories of the 1990s are not the comic stories of today, and trying to construct a single, chronological story out of the pieces created in all those different time periods too often creates a confusing patchwork.

    What I would suggest is that, especially in cases where there are long gaps in the publication history, each portion/version of the story is told separately. When dealing with events that are later retconned, we may mention that changes were later made, but concentrate on telling the story according to what was "true" in that publication period. For example, we would cover Bucky's existence as the kid sidekick of Captain America in the 1940s first, because that was published in the 1940s. We would not discuss the "revelation" that Bucky was actually a covert assassin during that time period until much later -- even though current continuity says that that is who Bucky actually was in that time period, it did not become continuity until over half a century after the original comics.

    Not only would this make it much easier to untangle the multiple threads of comic continuity, with their retcons and occasional inconsistencies, it would also be more in line with the overall goals of Wikipedia: namely, writing about real things. Superman is not a real person. There is no actual Superman in our world. However, what is real in our world is the fictional character of Superman; we serve the goals of the project better by describing the existence of the fictional character of Superman, rather than describing it as if it was a real existence. -- 209.6.177.176 (talk) 01:42, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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