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January 8

Footnotes 56

In footnotes 56 "hochchhe" is mentioned. What does it mean.174.3.101.61 (talk) 01:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

If I'm reading the section correctly, where it was referenced, it means "is". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:17, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the footnote says that the copula surfaces as 'hochchhe', meaning that the verb 'to be' (which is essentially the copula) is shown by the word 'hochchhe'. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 18:37, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Corollary to the Spanish question

So, I saw that in yesterday's Spanish question that "quando" was suggested as being fixed to "cuándo", which seemed interesting to me - I'm learning French as a second language, and "quando" reminded me of the French quand (when). This begs the question: in Spanish when does one use "qu" and "cu"? Do we know how it would've been like in earlier stages of Spanish? --134.117.182.175 (talk) 04:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I can't say about early Spanish, but "when" in Latin is quando, which of course feeds both the French and Spanish terms. The Spanish "c" is pronounced 3 ways: as a hard "c" (like "k") when followed by a, o or u; as a soft "c" (like "s") when followed by e or i; and in combination with "h" is pronounced pretty much like the English "ch". That leaves a gap, which is how to form the "k" sound before e or i. The solution is "qu". As with English, "q" is used in combination with "u" and is typically followed by an "e" or an "i". In fact, my Spanish dictionary under "q" shows only "que" and "qui" words, nothing else. So "que" for "that" or "what" is roughly pronounced "kay"; and "quien" for "who" is roughly pronounced "kee-en". So why not just use the letter "k"? Like German, which always uses "k" for a hard "k" sound. The reason is that "k" does not normally occur in Spanish, except in words of Greek origin, such as "kilometro". In fact, my Spanish dictionary gives "quilo" as an alternate spelling of "kilo". So, as you say, "quand" in French, but "cuando" in Spanish. Seems like "quando" would have worked in Spanish, but they went with "cuando" for whatever reason. That was all kind of long-winded, and I hope it makes sense. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I found an interesting one: The normal Spanish word for "question" is pregunta, but the word "cuestion" also exists, apparently taken back from English or French. Note that it doesn't start with "q", though, because that would be pronounced "kay-stee-ohn", whereas with the "c" it works out to something close to the English pronounciation. Other switches include "cuanto" for "how many", obviously from the Latin from which we get "quantity"; and "cuatro" for four, which again comes from Latin "quarto" or some such. That also raises the question as to why Latin doesn't just use "c" instead of "q" in those cases. Some cunning linguist will have to answer that one. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:28, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

It has mostly to do with historical sound shifts. In Latin, using <q> made sense as it helped indicate the phonemic distinction between /k/ and /kʷ/. The latter consonant was lost in Latin's daughter languages (that is, Romance languages) but in different ways. From what I can tell, in early Spanish, /kʷ/ became /k/ before front vowels and /kw/ elswhere. Meanwhile, what was /k/ (spelled <c>) before front vowels palatalized to become /ts/ (eventually becoming /θ/). This meant that /k/ was spelled with <qu> before front vowels and <c> elsewhere.

I don't know the specifics about the processes, and spelling reforms complicate the matter so that, eventually, Spanish orthographers decided <qu> was only good for indicating /k/ before front vowels and indicated /kw/ with <cu>. Also, like I said, the merger operated differently in the different daughter languages. In Romanian, /kʷ/ became /p/ before /a/. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 09:08, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps part of the reason Spanish always uses cu + vowel to stand for /kw/, never qu, has to do with the diphthongization of Latin ŏ to /we/ (spelled ue) in Spanish. A word like "body", was corpus in Latin, which regularly became cuerpo in Spanish, with c mapping to Latin c and ue mapping to Latin o. Words like that would establish the precedent that /kw/ was to be spelled cu, so it was regularized both to cases like quando → cuando and to learnèd re-borrowings from Latin, like frecuéncia and cuestión. In other languages that didn't have the o → ue change, there was no motivation to spell /kw/ cu, so it stayed qu, e.g. in Portuguese, where those words are spelled quando, freqüência, and qüestão (Portuguese uses qü before e and i to indicate /kw/ rather than /k/). +Angr 09:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The Portuguese convention is similar to Spanish use of ü to differentiate between /g/ and /gw/ before front vowels (agüero vs. aguerrido). — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 11:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Portuguese does that too, of course. However, according to Portuguese orthography, qü and gü are used only in Brazil, and not even always there, and according to Portuguese Language Orthographic Agreement of 1990, qü and gü are to be abolished in BP as well, with the result that spellings like que, qui, gue, gui will be ambiguous as to whether /k ~ g/ or /kw ~ gw/ is meant. No problem for native speakers of course, and it's one less letter for them to have to worry about (will it free up a key on Brazil computer keyboards?), but it's hard cheese on foreigners learning the language, who will lose a pronunciation hint in the spelling. +Angr 11:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Usually, in Spanish, if a word is pronounced /kw/..., then it probably starts with "cu" (like cuando), if it's pronounced /kj/... or just /k/... then it probably starts with "qu". L☺g☺maniac chat? 15:43, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

That's actually too specific a rule. In that context, the [j] is actually phonemically an /i/ that has become a semivowel. That's the source of Spanish [w] as well. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 21:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

"kj"??? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Sure, as in quiere /kjere/ or quién /kjen/. +Angr 16:15, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

That's a "ky" sound. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

In IPA, /j/ is the 'y' sound... L☺g☺maniac chat? 16:39, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

IPA must have been designed by Germans. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, French and Britons for the most part. — Emil J. 17:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Ironic, since neither language pronounces "j" that way, in general. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Not really ironic, is it? Not in the generally understood sense of the word. Or are you Alanis Morrisette in disguise? 87.113.122.165 (talk) 22:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Hush. Don't give away my secrets. :) In a further oddity, many Spanish-speakers pronounce 'y' like the English 'j'. For example 'yo' sounds a lot like 'joe'. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:48, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

As has been pointed out, statistically speaking, nobody understands IPA, and nobody uses it, and it's a shame that it's a standard on Wikipedia instead of remaining in the Linguistipedia ghetto. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:00, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

And, as has been pointed out many times, it's understood by far more people than any other system of phonetic transcription. (Shavian alphabet or Visible Speech, anyone?) The only alternative to IPA on Wikipedia is having no phonetic transcription at all. What's a shame is that some people spend so much time badmouthing IPA instead of spending the 45 minutes required to learn it. +Angr 18:19, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Is there a dictionary of these pronunciations, or is it based on original research, i.e. on what a given editor thinks a word sounds like? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:50, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) Well, neither language pronounces "x", "q", "c", or "ç" the IPA way, either. There are only so many letters to choose from, and they apparently deemed "y" more useful to serve for the close front rounded vowel. — Emil J. 18:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Not much to add to previous answers. Let's just point out that we do have es:Qatar. And that es:Gonzalo Correas seems to have been the first to try to reform the c/qu ortographic issue (though he apparently wanted them to be merged into k. Anyway, by 1815 the question became completely settled by the Real Academia Española. Pallida  Mors 18:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

"Cuestión" means "question" in the sense of "matter", as in "the matter at hand". You wouldn't ask a "cuestión".--Atemperman (talk) 20:27, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Certainly, as in "issue", like "What is the issue?" A narrowing of that term "question" to a specific meaning. You would ask a "pregunta". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:48, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The name of a door

Hello, could you please help me? I'm looking for the name in English of this type of door. It's a metal door which can be rolled up and down, much like a blind. Here is another picture: [1]. Thanks in advance to anyone who can help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.229.148.222 (talk) 08:09, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

That would be a roller shutter.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:25, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

nl:wiki problem

Hi. Could someone with a grasp of dutch please do something to resolve the page http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Trains - the problem being that since it was moved from "Angel trains" to "Alpha trains" the text is now almost completely inaccurate - (see Angel Trains for details).

• Alpha Trains - european mainland
• Angel trains - UK
• Both separate companies
• Alpha trains not a player in UK.

Thanks.10:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Nihongo translation please -.-;

Resolved

Hello. This is gonna sound weird, but... what is the bunny girl saying to the right of the stage in this page? (You need to wait for the animation to load.) Thanks in advance~! :3 Kreachure (talk) 16:43, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

「欽ちゃん＆香取慎吾の第８３回全日本仮装大賞　　　たくさんの応募ありがとうございました　　放送日が決定いたしました♥　　2010年1月10日（日）夜7時～」。 It means 'Kin-chan & Katori Shingo's 83rd All Japan Dress Up Grand Prix Thank you for so many applications The date of broadcast has been decided From 7pm 10th Jan 2010 (Sunday)'. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 17:13, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Doumo arigatou gozaimasu. m(_ _)m Kreachure (talk) 17:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

No worries! Good luck! :) --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 17:42, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Question About Facemarks/Emoticons

Resolved

Can anyone tell me what this means: （；´Д｀）ﾊｱﾊｱ

I've searched google but I can't find the answer, and goggle translate just returns and load of gibberish unicode characters —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.88.124 (talk) 19:03, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

It's 'face characters' or 'facemarks', a type of text-based emoticon used mainly in Japan. You can find a site with a huge list of them here. Yours may be there. Basically it's a smile or something. PS I've changed the title to your question, as simply 'Question' is harder for you to find in archives. \(>..<)/ --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 19:47, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Found it. Yours is in our article on List_of_emoticons#2channel_emoticons. The ﾊｱﾊｱ after it just says 'haahaa'. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 20:34, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! That makes sense with the context

Knighting sword

What is the best term for a sword used in a knighting ceremony? Knighting sword? Dubbing sword? Accolade sword? Something else? — Kpalion^(talk) 19:22, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to have a special name: descriptions of knighting ceremonies just describe it as a sword. Queen Elizabeth II uses one of her father's old ones [2]. Karenjc 20:00, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Excalibur refers to Clarent, used by King Arthur for knighting, as a "sword of peace". Clarityfiend (talk) 00:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, maybe I'll put it another way: which of the three terms I listed (knighting sword, dubbing sword, accolade sword) do you think sounds best or is most understandable? — Kpalion^(talk) 21:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, they all sound a bit awkward in general prose. "He knelt, and felt a gentle tap from the knighting/dubbing/accolade sword." None of them sound right somehow. I think the context will be key, but if it's just a matter of getting across the point that this was a sword used in knighting ceremonies, I would understand what you meant by any of them. Maybe "accolade" might be the most easily misunderstood by some readers, but that's just my personal feeling. Karenjc 00:13, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I think "accolade sword" sounds most understandable of the three, but if you were writing that sentence, it would be obvious what you meant if you just wrote "...from the sword." Marnanel (talk) 00:22, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The kind of sentence I'm thinking of is: "The museum contains a display of ceremonial weapons, including a 13th-century coronation sword and a 16th-century accolade sword." Would that be understandable? — Kpalion^(talk) 16:50, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't understand it. How about "The museum contains a display of ceremonial weapons, including a 13th-century coronation sword and a 16th-century sword used in knighting cermonies"? +Angr 16:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

OK, I hoped there was a word for that, but apparently I should use a description instead. Thanks a lot! — Kpalion^(talk) 18:43, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

January 9

Which is the subject?

There's been a radio commercial I keep hearing, and while their intention is clear (or maybe not, considering how bankers act,) I'm not sure about the language. The government has been bailing out the banks, now it's your turn! They imply that it's now the government bailing you (the listener) out, but isn't the strict meaning of the sentence state that now it's your turn to bail out the banks? I've been having trouble with this one, since my inherent distrust of banking institutions makes me believe that this statement was deliberately worded. Anyway, isn't government the subject of the sentence, and the next replaces the subject with that "your," thus implying that it's your turn to bail out the banks? Or, is there no clearly defined English language rule covering this (or a rule covering it the other way, that since banks is the last noun, your replaces that? Taggart.BBS (talk) 07:25, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

It's ambiguous, it could mean "the government has been bailing out the banks, now it's your turn [to bail out the banks]", or "the government has been bailing out the banks, now it's your turn [to be bailed out]". Judging by syntax alone, the first sort of interpretation is more common. But in this example, without any further context, I can't say for sure which reading is intended (or whether it's deliberately ambiguous). rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 07:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

(ec)The problem is that it's incomplete, and hence it's ambiguous when taken as-is. Who's running the ad? Because I can't tell just from the words. To be complete, it would need to say, "...now it's your turn to bail out the banks", or "...now it's your turn to be bailed out by the government." Taken as is, it's not clear to me which idea they're trying to say. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:33, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I have seen the commercial as well. Although I don't remember the product or service that is being promoted, the statement in the context of the ad is definitely trying to make the viewer beleive that it is now "their turn" for some government asisistance. As I remember, the ad is misleading in the premise. 10draftsdeep (talk) 17:46, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Meaning of "so funny"

Is "so funny" a sarcasm. If so funny is ironically what does so funny means.--69.226.34.161 (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Sometimes it's sarcasm, sometimes it's not. If it's not wikt:sarcastic, it means "that's funny". If it is sarcastic, it means "that's not funny" (that is how sarcasm works). rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:38, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

In the example provided, it's being used for sarcasm. Dismas|^(talk) 02:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

And combining the two ideas, the wife's frequent comment, "That is SO not funny!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:34, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Eytmology

What is the etymology of niggly?174.3.101.61 (talk) 06:40, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I tried googling it. Its origin seems uncertain, "possibly Scandinavian". It's obviously a slangy kind of term, for petty or annoying or some such. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:23, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

As with most slang terms, the origin is uncertain. The OED has "App. of Scandinavian origin, being current chiefly in northern dial., and corresponding both in form and meaning to Norw. nigla (Aasen and Ross), with the variants nagla and nugla. The precise meaning in some of the early examples is not quite clear."--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:32, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd imagine that niggly is an alteration/corruption of niggling, which is the present participle of niggle. As Shantavira mentions, the etymology listed for niggle is likely from the Old Norse nigla and/or nugla. -- 128.104.49.117 (talk) 02:18, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Anyone planning on using this word in a public context might want to read Controversies about the word "niggardly". BrainyBabe (talk) 22:57, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Longest English word with letters in alphabetical order

Here's an interesting one – well I find it interesting, anyway. What is the longest English word with its letters in alphabetical order? Like "best", for example, only longer. Thanks, --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:56, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

According to Longest word in English#Words with certain characteristics of notable length, "Aegilops". However, I would be reluctant to describe that as an _English_ word, even though it's in English dictionaries. More research is needed, I think. Tevildo (talk) 11:09, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

This site gives the rather more credible "almost", "biopsy", and "chintz" as genuine English words with the appropriate characteristic. And "bijoux", but that's open to the same objection as "Aegilops" and two letters shorter. Tevildo (talk) 11:14, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

There's a whole list of candidates here. It includes aegilops, and I wonder why there's reluctance to accept it as an English word. It's apparently a genus of mollusc, a genus of grass and an ulcer in the eye. There's no argument that it's not a commonly occurring English word, and of course it was borrowed from a foreign language; but to exclude it on that basis would be to more than halve the number of English words. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 12:44, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Taxonomy of Wordplay has a link to http://www.questrel.com/records.html#spelling_alphabetical_order_entire_word_letters_in_alphabetical_order.

-- Wavelength (talk) 16:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I bet this could be figured out pretty easily with some scripting and a corpus--for example, using Perl or Python or whatnot to go through the Brown Corpus to make a list of words with letters in alphabetical order (simply comparing the ASCII value of each letter to that of the preceding one) and then ordering that list by word length. Of course people can disagree on what corpus would be better to use, but it's at least a quick and dirty way to get the job done. I know someone at this desk has NLTK installed (don't remember who, though), and s/he could probably do this quickly if s/he is interested. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 16:22, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 November 17#I'm collecting words which can't end sentences (properly)., NLTK was mentioned by User:Rspeer. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Hebrew

Resolved

How is the word "FREEDOM" written in Hebrew? Thank you very much.Ants4three (talk) 12:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Google Translate gives these:

• חוֹפֶשׁ
• חֵרוּת
• דוֹרִיָה
• חוּפשָׁה
• חוֹפשִׁיוּת
• דְרוֹר

Or did you mean how is the English word 'freedom' written phonetically in Hebrew letters? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 13:25, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Assuming the person wanted a translation, you might want to look at Wiktionary in the future: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/freedom. There are usually translations provided, which would more than likely give you the most common word used to translate the English word you're looking for. Wiktionary gives: חוֹפֶשׁ (khófesh) (m), though I'm not a Hebrew speaker. --达伟 (talk) 17:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Cheers, DaWei. חוֹפֶשׁ (khófesh) is the first one on my list, anyway, probably for the same reason that it was the one that Wiktionary gave (i.e. most common). --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 17:22, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually, חוֹפֶשׁ (khófesh) refers more to a break, as in vacation. חֵרוּת is the word for freedom, as in , מעבדות לחרות "from slavery to freedom" or זמן חרותינו, "The Season of Our Freedom," both references to Passover (the first can be found in the Birchat HaChodesh and Hagaddah and the second in the Ya'aleh VeYavo prayer). דְרוֹר means freedom (as in Leviticus 25:10 and the associated Talmudic reference in R"H 9b) -- but it's a more archaic word, one that would likely not be used in modern Hebrew. The others are derivative of the 3 on which I've commented. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 00:50, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Pre-planned

What does this dreadful word mean? How is it different from planned? Kittybrewster ☎ 13:08, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Planned before you were forced to plan, I guess. (i.e., if your project hits a problem and you need to figure out how to deal with it, that is planning a solution; if you foresee a problem before it occurs and deal with it, then when you do deal with it you're using a pre-planned solution.) That's my best guess; I use the word sometimes but can't put my finger on exactly what it means. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 14:01, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I would say that it just means planned before the event, as opposed to doing your planning as the event unfolds, to use two more dreadful words, proactive rather than reactive. Mikenorton (talk) 14:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Like a pre-meeting meeting (to use an expression of Dilbert's boss). Perhaps used by those who tend to "over-exaggerate". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:37, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I recognize "preplanned" mostly from the phrase 'preplanned funeral' where you definitely plan it immediately before the event or "preplan" it farther in advance. Makes a large difference in who gets to do the actual planning. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 14:41, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

I remember my father complaining once about someone who canceled an appointment with him because she had "unexpected plans". "If they're plans, how can they be unexpected?" he said. +Angr 14:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Sounds post-planned to me. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:15, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The post-plans trumped the pre-plans. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:28, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

It means "planned beforehand". Next question? --ColinFine (talk) 16:22, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

But don't all plans come "before" whatever the action is? It's in the same class as "pre-book". All bookings are done before the event, so all are "pre-" (how can one book something after it's already started?) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Often they are just tautology (or should that be pleonasm?), but don't we often use this just for emphasis? Occasionally, as in funerals, or bookings before the official "book" is started, these "pre-" expressions can have a distinct meaning. Dbfirs 20:48, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

See the etymology of prepare. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

@Dbfirs: exactly my point. If somebody says "I planned it beforehand" few people are going to object to that expression. But if you pack it into a single word, it suddenly triggers some people's pedantry circuits. Like most pedantry the reactions abstract a linguistic object from its context and find something to criticise about it; but in context the claimed fault (in this case, redundancy) often vanishes, or can be seen to serve some rhetorical or discourse function. --ColinFine (talk) 01:05, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

It's like what you do when taking an insurance and create fire exits. You preplan for what will happen when the fire starts, so you don't have to plan everything from scratch when you wake up in the middle of the night and realize you have to plan to get out of a house on fire. The Great Cucumber (talk) 19:10, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Czech help;

Resolved

How to translate this passage? (from [3], I tried through google, but the result wasn't clear-cut); "Mezinárodní proletariát odpověděl na krveprolití v Berlíně tím, že prohlásil den 1. srpna za mezinárodni den boje proti imperialistické válce. Buržoazie všech evropských zemí provedla ostrá policejní opatření, aby akci znemožnila. U nás byl zastaven všechen komunistický tisk, na jehož místo nastoupily desítky závodních časopisů, ilegální Rudé právo a také vídeňské časopisy Jiskra a Průkopník svobody. Byly k nám dopravovány v masovém nákladu a policii se nikdy nepodařilo vypátrat, jakou cestou k nám byly dováženy." Is it correct to understand that the publishing of Průkopník svobody was somehow interrupted? And which is the event that is referred to in the text? --Soman (talk) 17:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Hrmph. As a speaker of another Slavic language (Slovene), I can make out about 80% of the meaning. What (I think) it says is: After the bloodshed in Berlin, Mayday was declared the International day of Anti-imperialism. The burguasy of several European lands stopped this with harsh police actions. Here, a lot of favourable Communist press was established, like the illegal Rudé právo and also dailies like Jiskra and Průkopník svobody. They were delivered here in massive quantities, and the police never interfered, eventhough it was delivered by road". I think that's what it says - I'm not 100% sure about the last two sentences, though. I'm also not sure where "here" is... TomorrowTime (talk) 19:32, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The word you're looking for is bourgeoisie. +Angr 20:43, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. I couldn't figure out how it's written in English. I tried a quick Google search, and got some sorta legit looking hits for the spelling above. Oh well. Also, Kpalion's version makes more sense. I suppose Polish is after all closer to Czech :) TomorrowTime (talk) 22:09, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

As a speaker of yet another Slavic language (Polish), I'll also give it a try:

International proletariat responded to the bloodshed in Berlin by declaring 1 August the International Day Against Imperialist War. The bourgeoisie of all European countries implemented harsh police crackdown to prevent the action. In our country, all Communist press was banned; in its place appeared dozens of workers' (?) periodicals, including the illegal Rudé právo ("The Red Law"), as well as the Viennese Jiskra ("Spark") and Průkopník svobody ("Pioneer of Freedom"). They were smuggled to us en masse and the police never found out through which routes they were transported.

I think it makes a little more sense, but let's hope a native Czech speaker will enventually drop by and provide an even better translation. — Kpalion^(talk) 21:21, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Your translation is actually quite accurate. Závodní časopis is a small-circulation periodical made by and distributed internally among workers of a particular company. — Emil J. 14:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

As to the event referred to in the text, the preceding paragraph says: "The blood shed in the early days of May 1929 in the streets of Berlin had not dried yet, when..." (Na berlínských ulicích ještě neuschla krev, prolitá v prvních květnových dnech roku 1929, když...) which clearly refers to Berlin's Bloody May of 1929. We don't seem to have an article about it in English Wikipedia, but we do have on in German: Blutmai. No idea though, why they picked 1 August as the day to commemorate the event. — Kpalion^(talk) 21:37, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Just a speculation: the choice of 1 August may have something to do with the beginning of WWI, which was considered a prototypical "imperialist war". — Emil J. 14:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Looks like you're right, Emil. I found this in Al Richmond's Native daughter. The story of Anita Whitney:

"Beginning with 1929 and for several years thereafter, the Communists initiated international demonstrations against imperialist war on August 1, anniversary of the outbreak of the World War. Anita herself was jailed for picketing in connection with the first of these August 1 demonstrations. A newspaper photograph shows her marching, carrying a placard reading: 'August First Is The International Day Against Imperialist War.' Anita and others arrested with her received 30-day suspended sentences." [4]

— Kpalion^(talk) 19:06, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot everyone. --Soman (talk) 22:42, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Numbers 1 to 10 in Proto-Afroasiatic language?

Note - this was originally asked on the entertainment desk - moved here. Exxolon (talk) 21:01, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Can anybody conjecture what, in Proto-Afroasiatic, the numbers for 1 to 10 were? Or suggest a link to a website out of Wiki, that deals with this question? Dexter Nextnumber (talk) 07:07, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

For Semitic, see Proto-Semitic#Cardinal_numerals. Due to the time-depths involved, and the fact that only Semitic languages and Egyptian are usefully attested from ancient times, only very limited progress has been made in reconstructing Proto-Afroasiatic... AnonMoos (talk) 21:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

See Zompist.com and Numbers in Over 5000 Languages. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:37, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

But there is no proto-Afroasiatic list there. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:47, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

See eight languages under "Afro-Asiatic" at http://www.zompist.com/oldnum.htm. I understood the anarthrous "Proto-Afroasiatic language" to be plural, but perhaps it was meant to be singular ("the Proto-Afroasiatic language").

-- Wavelength (talk) 04:20, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

"Proto" in the context of a language family means "the hypothetical ancestor of all the languages in the family". It can't be plural. --ColinFine (talk) 17:37, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Dexter Nextnumber (talk) 01:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Rusyn? Ukrainian?

Regarding the article Social Democratic Workers Party in Subcarpathian Rus, how to write the Rusyn (or Ukrainian?) name in Cyrillic? I have transcribed the name from a German book, but which doesn't specify the language of the name. --Soman (talk) 22:34, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Соціал-демократична робітнича партія на Підкарпатській Русі (Sotsial-demokratichna robitnicha partiya na Pidkarpats'kiy Rusi). I'll add it to the article. I think it's Ukrainian, but I don't know how different Rusyn is from Ukrainian. There may be no difference in the spelling of the party's name in these two languages. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(linguistic hack alert) AFAIK the primary difference between Russian and Ukranian orthography is that Russian uses и in place of Ukranian і. And a good amount of words are different, but the languages for the most part are mutually intelligible. ZS 06:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

True, but we're talking about Rusyn, not Russian here. As far as I know, Rusyn is basically a dialect of Ukrainian with some Slovak and Polish influences. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

January 10

Antique/Antiques

I'm American. When I refer to someone who sells antiques, I call them an antique dealer. Would someone from the United Kingdom who also speaks English call them an antiques dealer? Is there a regional variation of this word? Dismas|^(talk) 11:29, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I think I (in the UK) would also say "antique dealer", consistent with the more common "antique shop". I see that their trade organisation is The British Antique Dealers' Association. The singular form is more usual in general, as in "shoe shop", "second-hand car salesman", "drug dealer" etc. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:50, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

If it's of any interest, in Australia antiques dealer or just antique dealer could be used. Maybe with an "s" a bit more imho. ps. Don't worry about being American, we understand. It's alright. . --220.101.28.25 (talk) 12:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I (from the UK) had heard a few times the term 'antiques dealer' with the -s, and thought it was purely American. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 14:21, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Noun adjuncts were traditionally mostly singular. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:46, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm. Is the dealer an antique, or is he/she dealing in antiques? The answer will determine whether there is an "s" or not. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:00, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Beat me to the punch (line)! That's a common amusement with the noun adjunct, that it can be taken as an adjective or otherwise ambiguously. Another example that came to mind was "horse doctor", and a mental picture of Mr. Ed wearing a stethoscope and scrubs. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The example we had in our (amazingly boring) grammar textbook was "walking stick". TomorrowTime (talk) 09:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Between the walking stick (device) and the walking stick (bug), it gets more interesting. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Over-punctuation

I know that the internet has created new usages for various aspects of language, sometimes to reflect spoken language, sometimes out of efficiency. So things like texting cause shorthand uses like '4' for 'four' and 'l8r', etc.

So why, with all this, is there a tendency for some users to over-punctuate????? Do they really need all the question marks??? I need to know!!!Aaronite (talk) 19:01, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I have always seen it as mostly a joke, just like 4 for four or for, just because the Internet language is more between friends and therefor less serious sometimes. The Great Cucumber (talk) 19:07, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I see multiple question marks as a form of accentuation, or stress. They're communicating that they're more baffled than the use of merely one question mark would convey. They're saying not just I don't know the answer and I want you to tell me, but I REALLY don't know the answer and I REALLY want you to tell me.

It's not over-punctuation because there is no such general phenomenon. Rather, there's a general phenomenon of under-punctuation. Typically, we'll see 3 or more sentences run into one continuous stream of words, with no caps, commas, full stops, apostrophes; and wide use of the fantastic new words im, cant and dont - except, and this is a very important exception, they will go out of their way to write the possessive pronoun its, which should NOT be written with an apostrophe, as it's. Go figure. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:15, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget "alot" as one of the new words. While I kinda understand "dont" or "cant", I just can't grasp how people can presume "a lot" is written "alot"... TomorrowTime (talk) 09:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Because it is very often used like an adverb, not a noun phrase (e.g. "I like skiing a lot"), so people assume it's a single word. Similar to the way you just wrote "kinda" as a single word. And it's older than the Internet (at least, than widespread awareness and use of the Internet); I remember having to be told by my teachers in the 1970s not to write "alot" as a single word. +Angr 13:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

It seems like texting in general tries to keep words as short as possible, in part because of the tedium of typing them with two thumbs or whatever. However, once one is positioned on the question mark, it's pretty easy to hit it several times, for whatever degree of emphasis. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

：I disagree, Bugs. At least on all the phones I've had in the UK, it's actually time consuming to type multiple '?'s in succession, as each time I try to get to the '?' I have to go through half a dozen other punctuation marks I never use first. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 21:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC) And as if to make a point, Wikipedia gave me a superfluous colon there. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 21:29, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

In my world, it's for emphasis, in part because the game doesn't allow anything to be written in all-caps. Caps are bigger, but large amounts of punctuation take up more space. Consider also that people that do this don't think about doing it, they just do it. You're at the end of the sentence. You write your question mark. Wait, I know - more question marks! Make it...just...MORE! Vimescarrot (talk) 22:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

So really the simplest explanation for why they do it is that they like doing it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:16, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

That is true for at least one nontechnically savvy friend, who uses inappropriate multiple question marks without any special emphasis being intended. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:37, 11 January 2010 (UTC)????

of course the internet has also brought about the issue of underpunctuation as well astronaut talk 02 07 12 january 2010 utc

peanut allergy sufferers in asia language help

I am about to go to vietnam, laos, cambodia and malaysia in about 3 weeks. I suffer from a peanut allergy and I am concerned about communicating this to other people. I cant find a reliable free translation site and need to know how to say "i am allergic to peanuts and will die if i eat them" or something similar to get the point across in all the languages spoken in the countries above?

I would really appreciate any help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.31.55.224 (talk) 21:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

You may want to ask this question on this site. There are professionals there who will be only glad to help and, to be honest, I believe you will have a better chance of getting an answer there in all four languages, whereas here, you may only get some of them. You may want to point out that you need it in native script as well as romanisation so that you can show it to people rather than just relying on your own pronunciation, which leaves room for (possibly disastrous) misunderstandings. In the meantime, you may want to directly contact people here on Wikipedia who speak those languages. Here are the lists for Cambodian (Khmer), Lao, and Vietnamese. Sorry, I can't find a list for Malay speakers. Good luck! --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 22:50, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Since this is life-or-death for you, I would be very careful about trying to generate an accurate response on the internet, especially because there may be more than one language or dialect in the specific cities you are visiting. If you cannot hire a qualified local translator to accompany you at all times. Your IP locates to the UK - I'd try to talk to a real person at the relevant embassies of each country - they are supposed to be there to serve British nationals visiting those countries.

British Embassy in Vietnam

British Embassy in Cambodia

British High Commission in Malaysia

British Embassy in Thailand (there is no embassy in Laos)

(P.S. advice out there on the internet varies widely, right up to including the suggestion to stay home as peanuts and peanut oil are so widely used in cooking in this region. See [5] [6] [7]. This website sells pre-translated allergy cards, but I can't find the languages you need. Carry a picture?--174.88.204.105 (talk) 22:55, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

SelectWisely (as in the last link from 174) offers most if not all of your desired languages, although it looks like you'd have to talk to them (they are special order). They offer picture cards, and I would recommend carrying a picture card whether you buy one or make it yourself. I've had good experience with SelectWisely in the past, and would recommend emailing them to ask about your specific languages: they specialise in communicating this very information as clearly as possible. Obviously, this would cost more than making the cards yourself.

I assume you already have a MedicAlert of some kind: don't forget to wear it! And make sure you have a prescription for your epipen with you, at the very least: you might need to prove to security that the needle and container of liquid you're carrying are legal medication. I've heard this sometimes involves a trip to the airport pharmacist to verify the equipment! 86.178.72.55 (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Rendering of an Hebrew word in English letters

How would I write the Hebrew word for decay (ןוריקב) in English letters? And how would I pronounce it? And is there a website where I could easily find this out if I have this question about other Hebrew words? 169.231.9.45 (talk) 23:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

You seem to have got the letters in the wrong order: it's ריקבון which is (right to left) r-y-q-a-b-v-n. But it's actually pronounced 'rikavon'.

It's actually a bit difficult to transliterate if you don't know the language. You can look up the consonants here for example, but everyday Hebrew doesn't write most of the vowels. This works because there are standard patterns for the vowels depending on the function of the word, but it makes it very hard to know how to pronounce or transliterate it if you don't. Actually my dictionary prints it as רקבון, without the 'y': that has been inserted as a helper to show that the first vowel is 'i'; and the second to last letter is sometimes a consonant 'v', but often functions as a vowel 'o' or 'u'. So this word could have been various other things such as 'rayakavon', 'rikabaven' or 'reyakobavan'; but a Hebrew speaker (which I'm not, really) will recognise it as 'rikavon'.

Sorry I can't be more helpful. --ColinFine (talk) 00:06, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the correct spelling is רקבון, or ריקבון in Ktiv male. It's pronounced something between "rick-a-von" and "reck-a-von", with rick like the name Rick, a like in "argument", and o like in "port". You can spell it "rikavon" or "rekavon" in English. By the way, ריקבון only means bacterial decay, rot. There are different Hebrew words for different meanings of "decay". --Dr Dima (talk) 09:37, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Two points to clarify the above:

• rikavon is a transcription (as this word is pronounced) and might indicate that the first syllable is stressed. The first vowel is best represented with the English letter "i" and pronounced as a "short [i]". riqavon is an alternative transliteration (particularly a convention among linguists, to represent certain letters without actually resorting to IPA symbols) indicate that the second consonant is qof [ק] and not kaf [כ].
• This word, besides biological decay, is often used in the figurative sense, e.g. for moral decay. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

January 11

Reinforcing existing prejudices

Is there a phrase for this? Possibly Latin? And is there a phrase which encompasses the route out of that circular condition? Kittybrewster ☎ 13:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

This condition is called Confirmation bias. The article quotes Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War and Francis Bacon Novum Organum on this subject, so the Latin texts of those works should have what you look for. I have read neither, unfortunately, so I cannot help with the exact quote. --71.142.58.78 (talk) 17:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Thucydides' original was, though, written in Greek...but over the ages Latin versions probably cropped up.--达伟 (talk) 19:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

But as you can tell from the English translations of Thucydides and Bacon, they didn't have a pithy phrase for it, just a couple of sentences of a description. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

"Piange ... Il Telefono" (Italian song)

I would like some information on "Piange ... Il Telefono", which is an Italian pop song from 1975 sung by Domenico Modugno. First, I'd like an appropriate English translation to the lyrics. Second, I'd like to know what is the song / story / plot all about. I have searched all over the internet (including Italian Wikipedia), but I was not able to find much information of any help. Also, I was able to get a direct word-for-word translation from Italian to English. But, that was not helpful in translating the real / actual / contextual meaning of the lyrics. Below are the lyrics into which I placed line numbers for reference. The basic story is of a man making a telephone call, and a child answers the phone. The man's lyrics are printed plainly below, while the child's lyrics are parenthesized. Again, I am less interested in a direct literal translation, but rather a contextual translation for meaning / plot / story line. If it makes any difference, I think that the language is actually Neapolitan language (Nnapulitano / Naples), and not Italian per se. Also, if this is not the best place to ask this question, please direct me otherwise. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. (Joseph Spadaro (talk) 19:47, 11 January 2010 (UTC))

Italian lyrics to "Piange ... Il Telefono"

Title: Piange ... Il Telefono (Pronto) Ascolta Mamma è vicino a te? Devi dire a mamma c'è qualcuno che (Chi sei il signore dell'altra volta?) (vado a chiamarla) (Ma sta facendo il bagno) (non so se può venire!) Dille che son qui dille che è importante che aspetterò (Ma tu hai fatto qualche cosa) (alla mia mamma?) (Quando chiami tu mi dice sempre:) (Digli che non ci sono!) Ma dimmi sai scrivere di già E' bella la tua casa? A scuola come va? (Bene... ma dato che la mia mamma lavora) (è una vicina che mi accompagna a scuola) (però ho solo una firma sul mio diario) (Gli altri hanno quella del loro papà) (Io no!...) Dille che son qui che soffro da sei anni Tesoro proprio la tua età (Ah no... Io ho cinque anni!!) (Ma tu la conosci la mia mamma?) (Non mi ha mai parlato di te!) (Aspetta eh...) Piange il telefono perchè lei non verrà anche se grido: ti amo lo so che non mi ascolterà Piange il telefono perchè non hai pietà? Però nessuno mi risponderà L'estate andate a villeggiare all'Hotel Riviera? ti piace il mare? (Oh si tanto!) (Lo sai che so nuotare? Ma dimmi) (Come fai a conoscere l'Hotel Riviera) (Ci sei stato anche tu?) Dille la mia pena e quanto a tutte e due: vi voglio bene (Ci vuoi bene?) (Ma io non ti ho mai visto!) (Ma che cos'hai!) (Perchè hai cambiato voce?) (Ma tu piangi! Perchè?) Piange il telefono perchè lei non verrà anche se grido: ti amo lo so che non mi ascolterà Piange il telefono perchè non hai pietà? Però nessuno mi risponderà Ricordati però piango al telefono l'ultima volta ormai ed il perchè domani tu lo saprai Falla aspettare (Sta uscendo!) Falla fermare (E' andata via!) Se è andata via allora... addio... (Arrivederci signore) Ciao piccola!

Here is my translation.

-- Wavelength (talk) 21:10, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

[I am revising my quick translation. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)]

Can we truncate this, please? It's far too long. Cheers! --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 21:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The lyrics in French, Spanish, Italian, and English are at Le téléphone pleure - Claude François - LEXILOGOS >>.

The introduction in French says: "This is the story of a man who telephones his former lover whom he has not seen again for six years. At the end of the line, a little girl answers him. The man discovers then that he is her father ... This song, which came out in 1974, surpassed all the sales records of the career of Claude François: 2,800,000 45-rpm records." (I have the record and the girl's part is sung by Francesca Guadagno.)

-- Wavelength (talk) 21:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Cheers! :) --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 22:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

[I am revising my translation. Also, when I made the navigation box at 22:09, 11 January 2010 (UTC), I forgot to leave a comment in this section.

-- Wavelength (talk) 00:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC)]

Thanks so much for the input. This was very, very helpful ... and I appreciate it. Thanks! (Joseph Spadaro (talk) 17:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC))

January 12

Definition of OP

OP is often use for query is fully mean Opt. What does op for query use for questions stand for and mean?--69.226.34.161 (talk) 01:32, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

"Original Poster", the one who posted the question originally. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

For more terminology used in Wikipedia discussions, see Wikipedia:Glossary. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

This question seems to turn up frequently. Should it be kept on the ref desk pages permanently somehow? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:01, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I think so. OP is unfortunate jargon, and confusing, especially for non-chat-forum people, meaning 95% of Earth, probably. Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I thought is stood for 'obtusely placated' --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 14:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I think of it more like this. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be best no to use Internet slang here as much as possible. But let's take this discussion to the talkpage. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Temperature subjective feel

I'm not really sure if this is a science or a language question. Anyway, I know there's a word for the phenomenon where when we touch some substances they feel colder or warmer than others because of what they are made from, but their temperature doesn't change. What's the word for that? Example: If on a day at 20°f you step outside onto a towel that sitting out there, or onto a sheet of steel sitting out there, you'll immediately think the steel is colder. Same thing for touching a piping hot piece of bread verses a metal pan at the same temperature (ouch).--70.23.81.136 (talk) 12:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Is it because steel is a better thermal conductor than towelling? Alansplodge (talk) 13:05, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Meaning that it's better at "drawing heat away from you". A similar phenomenon on a really cold day outside: an iron railing will feel a lot colder than a wooden railing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:41, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Apparent temperature is used specifically for the weather, not the situation the OP describes. However, the fundamental reasons for the existence of the concept of apparent temperature a probably the same - ie the different rates at which heat is transferred. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Is "accusee" acceptable?

I very recently wrote at WP:RD/E that allegations of "hacking" may simply be a result of the accusee being more proficient than the accuser. Now, Mitch Ames (talk · contribs) pointed out that the correct term is "accused", and I admit that I made up "accusee", based on similar words like callee. The person being called is "the callee". By that logic, wouldn't the person being accused be the "accusee"? Thanks, decltype (talk) 12:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Callee, eh? Oh boy. Maybe we should start talking about the victims of murder as "killees" or "murderees". Or about someone we like or love as a "likee" or a "lovee". Or about cattle that have been slaughtered as "slaughterees", and then eaten as "eatees". Maybe we should start calling our husbands and wives "marriees". Do you see how unproductive this appeal to logic would be? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 12:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course. Still, callee has somehow become a widely used term in computer science to denote a function being called (and can apparently also be used to refer to a person being called - I didn't know that). decltype (talk) 12:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It's quite common to add the suffix -ee to a transitive verb to make a noun meaning "person being Xed", as in callee. What I find interesting is the less common habit of adding the suffix -ee to an intransitive verb to make a noun meaning "person who Xes", as in standee. It sort of suggests that ergativity has its place even in an accusative language like English. Back to the original question, I'd say accusee would be acceptable if the noun accused didn't already exist; since it does, there's no need to coin a new synonym for it. +Angr 12:44, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Even transitive verbs are sometimes made into agent-nouns by adding -ee, e.g. "attendee". (I think there may be other examples but can't think of any off-hand.) AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Technically, shouldn't it be "attender"? Though I don't recall hearing that term. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

If you were writing an article, you should switch into a more formal dialect and use "accused". If you were writing on a talk page, it makes no difference. People will have no problem understanding you, especially if they know a little French, since accusee is a cognate for accusée. On the other hand, I didn't realize at first that you intended accusee to rhyme with "tree", if that is what you were thinking. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:40, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I was about to ask whether this has something to do with French origins, but now I wonder if it has more to do with where the usage first occurred. Something ending with "-ed", such as "the accused" could be short for "the accused one". In contrast, you have "employer" and "employee", and you don't often hear "the employed (one)". Likewise with "caller" and "callee", you don't so much hear the term "the called (one)". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:48, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

We have the word defendant. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:05, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The English suffix "-ee" clearly derives from the French "-é(e)" in the sense that it has been generalised from words like "employee" and "lessee" which were borrowed from French. But it is a slightly productive suffix in English, and gets added to words irrespective of their origins. --ColinFine (talk) 22:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The words are accuser and accused. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:09, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(response to JackofOz). Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but "murderee" had quite a spree more than 100 years ago. New York Times archive 1892. Webster's 1913 edition lists it as someone who has been murdered, but I've also seen it used to describe someone who is the type of person who gets murdered. Wiktonary gives two citations, 1970 and 2001. Granta 25 (1989) has Martin Amis's "The Murderee" on the front cover. For some reason I can't get in to the OED, or I'd give you chapter and verse. And the next thing you know, we'll be calling a person who has been divorced ... a "divorcee". BrainyBabe (talk) 03:28, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Michaelhouse

At Cambridge there used to be a college called Michaelhouse. Was it pronounced "Michael House", or "Micklehouse" as in Michaelmas? The Wednesday Island (talk) 15:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Since it ceased to exist before the great vowel shift the question is moot: the vowel in "Michael" did not meander to its present strange place in the mouth until later. The equivalent question at the time would have been whether the vowel was long or short (/mi:/ or /mi/ - roughly "mee" or "me"). I don't know if there is any record of how the name was pronounced. I certainly heard it referred to as "Michael house" in Cambridge thirty years ago, but it's unlikely there was any unbroken tradition. --ColinFine (talk) 23:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

M/M: Lettering format

Waht does M/M: mean. Since When I apply to a Catholic school in orange county when mail letter home it said on top M/M:ABC then proper locale mailing format.--209.129.85.4 (talk) 20:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

That means "Mr. or Mrs.", or, I suppose, Miss, and possibly even Ms. It's used when the gender of the recipient is not known. Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Or "Mr. and Mrs./Ms." —— Shakescene (talk) 21:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

What's this sentence construction?

Consider these sentences, a and b:

a: The man who first ate an oyster was brave.

b: The man was brave who first ate an oyster.

Is there a term for the sort of construction found in b, where a relative clause follows the verb phrase instead of coming right after the noun it modifies? Also, do most native speakers of English find this construction difficult to parse? (I ask because I am one, and I do.) 69.111.79.27 (talk) 22:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Cleft sentence. --ColinFine (talk) 23:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

More generally, I would call it "poetic". You often see sentence construction in poems and sayings and such which are a little unusual. "Frog he would a wooing go." That's almost German-like construction, I think. P.S. Oysters are good. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Although I don't know of experimental examples off the top of my head, I am fairly certain English speakers find the cleft sentence (b) more difficult. For the seminal article on what types of sentences are considered hard to parse, see John Kimball's 1970 "Seven principles of surface structure parsing in natural language". I'm not sure exactly which of the 'principles' is relevant to this one, but it's something more or less along the lines of Minimal Attachment (an amalgamation of several of Kimball's principles) and Right Branching—the idea is that once you've already read "the man was brave" and closed it off (thinking it to be a complete sentence), encountering "who..." and trying to integrate it is difficult. You want to integrate it to the nearest word, but you have to backtrack a ways. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the oyster comment is a good illustration of the subtleties of English. Both sentences contain the same basic information. But the first is prosaic and unmemorable, while the second is poetic and catchy. I would say the second one has even more impact if read out loud, because you have to say it a certain way for it to be properly pithy and funny. Inflection something like, "The MAN was BRAVE... who first ate an oy-STER!" The first part with a little enthusiasm, the second part monotone except for emphasizing that last syllable, and ideally with a bit of a smirk on the teller's face. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:42, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

So in summary, I say that although the technical term may be "cleft sentence", the more general way of looking at those sentences is prosaic vs. poetic. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:49, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I suspect the reason these two sentences sound poetic is because they happen to fit the pattern of iambic pentameter. Maybe the second one also sounds a bit foreign, since Romance languages (and Latin) can start normal sentences like that. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(b) is not quite iambic pentameter, unless you're saying it in a pretty stilted way. When I say it, it's "the man was brave who first ate an oyster. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 04:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

For iambic pentameters, one could say:

The man who first an oyster ate was brave.

The man was brave who first an oyster ate.

-- Wavelength (talk) 06:02, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Describing this as a "cleft sentence" is precise. Describing it as "poetic" is subjective. Clefting, pseudoclefting, topicalization (as in Bugs' example "Frog he would a wooing go") are all cases where the normal sentence structure is disturbed, usually for rhetorical effect. Poetry is one reason why this might be done. --ColinFine (talk) 08:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

"For rhetorical effect", yes. As Malcolm points out indirectly via the content of the link below, it is this effect that makes a phrase or sentence more interesting or "catchy". It's unlikely Yoda would be quoted or imitated so much if he talked the "normal" way. And with the oyster comment, the first way of saying it is mundane, and the second is much more likely to appear in Bartlett's. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:42, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced conjecture aside, the construction in question is known as anastrophe. Malcolm XIV (talk) 10:23, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Which sounds like it ought to be the opposite of a catastrophe. +Angr 21:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh, the iony of it all! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

January 13

Application

What is App.?174.3.101.61 (talk) 00:59, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Apparently, apparently. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:19, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Is that, "Apparently, it means apparently", or "It means apparently, apparently"? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 19:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm in a generous mood today. Please interpret it in any way that gives you pleasure.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Semivowel alternations

What I'm trying to do at our approximant consonant article is show examples where a semivowel alternates with its corresponding vowel. As you can see, I've got examples from Spanish for /i ~ j/ and /u ~ w/, a French one for /y ~ ɥ/, and an American English one for /ɚ ~ ɻ/. These alternations differ from arbitrary pairs of examples because they show a change the occurs upon suffixation. What's missing right now, though, is examples of /ɯ ~ ɰ/ and /ɑ ~ ʕ̞/ alternations. I'm not familiar with languages that have these pairs. Can anyone help? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 05:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

In the Semitic languages I'm somewhat familiar with, a voiced pharyngeal often induces an "a" type coloring in an adjacent vowel, but I don't think a pharyngeal can be usefully said to "alternate" with [a], and I'm not sure what that would really mean... AnonMoos (talk) 06:26, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

An alternation with [a] would mean that when (nonce-affix) -oqe is added to (nonceword) ava, the result would be avʕoqe; the insertion of [ʕ] in hiatus (avaʕoqe or avoʕaqe) would be close enough, I think. Short of that, do you have an example where the addition of an affix triggers this a coloring? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 06:32, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't know of any language in which an [a]-vowel is transformed into a voiced pharyngeal consonant by a phonological rule, and I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't any. In the Semitic languages, only a restricted subset of consonants are allowed to appear in inflections, and pharyngeals are not in that set (though [h] and the glottal stop are). The typical situation where you get [a] coloring is when a non-[a] vowel appears in a form derived from a consonantal root without pharyngeals, such as "k-t-b" or whatever, while [a] occurs in the corresponding position of the form derived from a consonantal root with a pharyngeal consonant. By the way, in some languages for some purposes, the non-pharyngeal [h] can induce [a]-coloring in an adjacent vowel. AnonMoos (talk) 23:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Portray or depict?

I've been toying with the idea of submitting a move request for List of films portraying paedophilia or sexual abuse of minors. As I see it, the article name should be "List of films depicting paedophilia or sexual abuse of minors". Characters portray, films depict. Is my thinking flawed or would there be general agreement on this point? Maedin\^talk 09:01, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I'd support that, "depict" is more neutral. "Portray" has a slightly arty tone to it. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:12, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

"re" case

(silly me, I'd posted this at the humanities desk)

Is there a name for a grammatical case equivalent to 'regarding, concerning, about'? As in a special case for X in "I have a message about X". kwami (talk) 10:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The prepositional case performs this function in some languages, but not in English. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:57, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't mean in in English. But in place of a preposition: a form "message John-[re]" which would mean "a message re John". Which case would that "-[re]" be? I don't know that there even is a name, which is why I'm asking here.

Or it might be restricted to linking a noun to a predicate, something like "to fear X, be worthy of X, to talk of X, think of X", etc, but specifically with a relationship of "concerning X", not also as a general dative or ablative. Kinda like a topic marker, but a case rather than setting up a topic-comment construction. kwami (talk) 18:05, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

List of grammatical cases#Morphosyntactic alignment lists Oblique case and

List of grammatical cases#Relation lists Ablative case. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:05, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, but I doubt it's something we have a dedicated article on. At least, there's nothing in our case template, or on our list (closest maybe is causal, but that only covers some of the functions). kwami (talk) 20:32, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Apart from case grammar, the available cases and their names and functions vary from language to language. While there is a degree of commonality, especially between related languages, the answer to questions like this will often vary from language to language. Offhand I can't think of a language which expresses this with just a case inflection, (but somebody will no doubt reply with an obvious instance), so there will be little reason to have come up with a name for one. --ColinFine (talk) 21:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

My Latin is extremely rusty, but isn't there a special use for Dative where it is like "X in reference to Y"? Falconus^{p t c} 02:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

There probably is. But I'm looking for the word you'd use for a case that is dedicated to such a role, not a more general case that can also be used that way. kwami (talk) 04:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Pronounciation rule?

Is there a rule as to when the second syllable gets the emphasis? Kittybrewster ☎ 20:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

In English? kwami (talk) 20:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

English probably has more exceptions than it has rules, but unabridged dictionaries sometimes have information like that; patterns to look for. There are some examples in the previous section. And "example" itself is an example. But that might just be coincidental, as it's often the next-to-last syllable that gets emphasized. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:57, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(EC)Such a rule does not exist in any language, to the best of my knowledge. Some have a rule that the final syllable is stressed, some the penultimate, and others the first, but none that specify the second syllable. Why? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 20:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

There are languages (a lot of Native American languages, for example) where the second syllable is stressed if the first syllable is light, but the first syllable is stressed if it's heavy. I don't know of any language where the second syllable is always stressed regardless of syllable weight. +Angr 21:27, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Languages with basic second-syllable stress are certainly uncommon,. but there have been claimed to be a few, such as Southern Paiute and Dakota.... AnonMoos (talk) 22:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

When you record a record, the verb form has the stress on the second syllable, while the noun form has the stress on the first syllable. --Kjoonlee 04:15, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Arabic Translation

Can someone who speaks Arabic tell me what the following means: منيح منيح :) أنا مصري.

Thank you! Luthinya (talk) 21:14, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what منيح means (someone's name, maybe? what's the context?), but انا مصري means "I'm Egyptian." Wrad (talk) 21:28, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Are ships feminine in American as they are in English ? And why ?

Hello my dear Pytias. Please excuse my poor English, I'm French. I've some questions about the sexe of ships.

1) An English man explain me it's useless trying to understand why ships are femenine in English, but anyway if you have ideas about that I'm eager to get new ideas on that.

2) MAIN QUESTION : A friend of mine who says she is bilingual American-French because she had lived in the USA from 0 to the age of 8 didn't know that ships are feminine in English. Would that mean that in American ships are not always feminine ? ( In fact I think she shows off when she proclaims she's bilingual )

3) What about other English speakers : Indians, South Africans, and so on...

4) Do you use feminine for all kinds of boats, rowing boats, sailing boats, boats for children

P.S.: I wrote Pytias at the beginning of my letter because the equivalent of the reference desk in the WP:fr is "L'Oracle" referring to Delphi.--82.216.68.31 (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Traditionally, ships have been referred to as "she". This is, however, changing. The current recommendation of the Chicago Manual of Style (CMS), which is widely used in the U.S., says "When a pronoun is used to refer to a vessel, the neuter it (rather than she or her) is generally preferred." As for the origins of the tradition of using "she" in referring to ships, CMS says "Pronouns enhance personification when a feminine or masculine pronoun is used as if the antecedent represented a female or male person (as was traditionally done, for example., when a ship or other vessel was referred to as she or her.)"

So the choice is she or it, and it remains a personal choice, with people advocating for their personal preferences with varying degrees of vigor. On the one hand is tradition; on the other, gender equality. Take your choice, and you've chosen your pronoun. - Nunh-huh 23:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

P.S. since you seem to want help with English, it may not be too offensive for me to add the following points:

• You probably meant Pythias, an allusion which unfortunately too many English speakers won't recognize, but which is still nice :)
• It is probably better to refer to a ship's "gender" rather than "sex" - Nunh-huh 23:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(EC)It seems to me that two things are true for English usage of she for vessels.

1. Not everybody uses this pronoun, especially people unfamiliar with boats or sailing.
2. The usage is not exactly parallel to grammatical gender featured in Romance languages like French. It seems more like an attempt at anthropomorphizing the ship, giving it human characteristics and projecting a certain will to it. I suspect that only named ships are referred to as she.

This is coming more from someone with minimal experience with boating, so perhaps others could substantiate my claims more. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 23:45, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Seagoers are indeed far more likely to insist on she, and it is indeed for anthropomorphological purposes....for whatever reason, sailors are more likely to conceptualize their relationship with a ship as with a woman than with a man.

Seagoers are also more likely to insist on a "boat"/"ship" distinction, in which the former are small vessels, and the latter large. Some define a ship as a vessel large enough to carry a boat. Others might claim that ships are seagoing vessels, while boats are not. These folk would refer to "ships" as "she", but would be a bit less likely to refer to "boats" as "she". But these distinctions are not observed in the everyday speech of landlubbers. - Nunh-huh 23:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Is it true, as per Rex Harrison in The Ghost and Mrs. Muir (film) that "sailors" is "a landlubber's term" and that they prefer to be called "seamen"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Alas, I cannot say if Rex speaks true or no. But generations of punsters would be thankful if he is correct. - Nunh-huh 02:03, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, that took over an hour. Where was everybody? As you may know, "seamen" are men who work at sea, while "semen" is from the Latin for "seed". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Bells are "she" to ringers, at least in the phrase "Look to; treble's going; she's gone." But I believe that this too is anthropomorphism. Marnanel (talk) 00:26, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Are all bells considered feminine? I've only heard it in that phrase (and occasionally with "treble" replaced by "two" when there are insufficient ringers to ring all the bells). I wouldn't be surprised if the tenor was considered masculine. Big Ben has a man's name, after all. --Tango (talk) 00:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

That may not matter. The USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) has a man's name, and is nonetheless "she". - Nunh-huh 02:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I liked the Pytias reference - perhaps the RD is being referred to as "da Big Cheese"? As for sailing vessels, I'm told that my grandfather (who sailed with the Merchant Navy all his life) averred that only two types of vessel could be referred to as "he"; gravy boats and mail boats.Tonywalton ^Talk 00:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

To my (American) ear, calling any vehicle by "she" is acceptable, but not mandatory. That includes mainly boats and ships, but also airplanes, spaceships, and, rarely, cars. The only vehicle I can think of where "she" is definitely out of place would be a train. Falconus^{p t c} 02:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Why leave out trains? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:17, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It just sounds wrong to me, though I guess with the actual locomotive it works fine. Falconus^{p t c} 03:43, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

She'll be coming 'round the mountain when she comes... Buddy431 (talk) 03:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, point taken. Falconus^{p t c} 04:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

To my (Australian) ear, it's much the same: 'she' or 'it' - but never 'he'. Funny that - another example of utterly unconscionable discrimination against maleness in all its forms. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 03:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, really! When do we get our turn to be thought of as property? -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Warning, Will Robinson! In the current atmosphere, do not attempt to burn your boxers in a plane. - Nunh-huh 04:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I (Texan) drive an old Ford Econoline van, and it's got lettering on the side, left over from its previous career as a catering van. Since it's got a name, which everyone uses to talk about it, it's already a bit anthropomorphized. Thus, a lot of people - American people - when they ask me how (or whether) the van is running, refer to it as a "she". I think they're assuming that I do the same thing ship-captains do, in thinking of the vehicle as a woman, but I don't. I consider it an "it", and I think of myself as progressive-minded when it comes to gender issues. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:17, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Which is why I find it so weird when men who already have a relationship with their pickups that verges on romantic, add testicles to it. Weirdly homoerotic. But maybe that explains the embrace of the term "teabagger" by some of the tea party folks... Guettarda (talk) 04:33, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

January 14

Numbers in Hindi

The Hindi version of 'Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? is on TV at the moment, and the two contestants have just won 640,000 Rpees, but it came up on screen as '6,40,000'. Why would this be? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:04, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

See Decimal separator#Examples of use. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah! Excellent! Thanks! That explains also why it's called Crorepati. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:14, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Indian numbering system might also help. Unfortunately, they decided not to use this system for the movie Slumdog Millionaire, when it's the only system that would have actually been used. Bʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{Speak up!} 00:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

"house" as a building and the family too

I have just submitted a hook at Template talk:Did you know, reading:

... that The Wodehouse, a country house near Wombourne, has twice produced individuals significant in British musical history?

The first comment this received is that it isn't idiomatic usage. But I mean "house" as in "the house of Capulet" as well as the bricks and mortar. So two questions:

a) Am I right, or is that usage now archaic?

b)Since it doesn't matter whether I am right or not if the "Did you know" team don't like it, can you suggest a better phrasing? BrainyBabe (talk) 03:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

As "the house of Capulet" actually were named "Capulet", whereas "Wodehouse" is specifically the name of the building, and the family residing therein is named "Hellier", I find using "Wodehouse" to refer to the family to be odd. If you were referring to the family, I'd probably say "the house of Hellier". A better phrasing might be

... that the families living in The Wodehouse, a country house near Wombourne, has twice produced individuals significant in British musical history?

with families, as "more than once the family has died out" -- 70.90.187.65 (talk) 04:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)