Talk:Occupy Wall Street

"What is our one demand?"

If there is only one demand can it be that this article be more concise? The information is very indirect and runs on. This article is in serious need of some clean-up. This article is a very disjointed collection of statements and ramblings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.23.26.209 (talk) 21:01, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

There isn't one demand, part of it seems to be deciding on what kind of demands they have. 70.140.26.124 (talk) 02:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

"Spanish Revolution"

I would like to see some mention to the spanish revolution. I believe the 15M movement in spain has been one of the best examples for this kind of social movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indignados — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.244.78.208 (talk) 11:50, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

"Russia Today"

Russia Today is considered by virtually all credible media monitors to be an unreliable source. If the decision to include RT's account of the events on the bridge is based on the fact that they are a part of an influential corporation, then it is a bit ironic.

Also, is there a chance that RT weaseled that reference into the wiki in order to advertise their brand? They do pride themselves on being controversial, and they use that word a lot in their marketing.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.17.89.55 (talk) 11:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Already got rid of what I think you are talking about, noticed it before reading your comment.AMERICAN 1 ENGINEER (talk) 11:38, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.17.89.55 (talk) 11:54, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

"Specific demands are in the process of being developed."

Well, that about says it all. There is nothing specific in this article. It's hard to read and is a mishmash of the "movement," whatever it is. Someone coming here for some information on all of the hubbub goes away with nothing. They have no organized agenda. Just show up and chant, "greed," and run with the ball. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.62.236.179 (talk) 04:04, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

*PEACEFUL* Protests using FARM EQUIPMENT ?

: Sections not about Occupy wall street -> hidden.

I thought you might find this cross-cultural protest info of value or interest for discussion. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/french-farmers-protest-at-channel-tunnel-738263.html http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/french-farmers-protest-over-price-fall-3080474 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFdpx6gxtLk CLEARLY, one would have to consult a lawyer here to see IF it is LEGAL to use Farm equiptment (or similar urban counterparts) as part of a *PEACEFUL* protest. (If it is NOT legal then CLEARLY you should NOT do it, but IF IT *IS* LEGAL, it might be worth looking into or at least discussing to compare cross cultural protest approaches?) (I might add that I think Hoffa used trucks in Washington DC as part of a union protest many years ago, but again the key is that is must be PEACEFUL and you should also speak with your lawyers to make sure that it is LEGAL to do so...) Here is a link to an article about a recent French protest using TRUCKS : http://www.euronews.net/2008/06/05/french-truckers-block-roads-in-more-fuel-price-protests/ Youtube video of Farm Equipment in French Protest http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFdpx6gxtLk CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT AND PEACEFUL PROTESTS ? Any Info ? Has anyone found any good sources on the use of CONSTRUCTION EQUIPMENT in PEACEFUL PROTESTS ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.116.128.56 (talk) 17:37, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Bare-breast photo

I'd like a little feedback on the woman with her breasts bared. I am not a prude and have no problems with naked or half-naked photos in Wikipedia, however since this photo represents "protesters", and I assume that this example was extremely rare and perhaps even one of a kind, I question that it should be used on this page. Thoughts? Gandydancer (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I would normally agree that it is not representative, but the NYT and a number of other sources pointed her out specifically. It seems relevant if she were included in the article text more. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 22:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I sort of agree, even though I placed it. As Scapler said, she's been in a number of sources and having spent six days photographing the encampment, I can vouch that Ms. Tikka definitely embodies the spirit you find there. And at least I didn't choose a topless photo without sources. That said, I do want to change the photos a bit. I think the crowd shot works because it's the first day and shows a grouping of people. I think the Anonymous shot can be replaced. Anonymous played a hand in supporting OWS, but aside from the first day there is not much evidence that they are a force within it. I am going to put up one of barricaded Wall Street, which shows the effects of the protest, and one from the camp, which shows life in it. If you guys don't like my choices feel free to change them - there's 163 images at commons:Category:Occupy Wall Street that you can use, more tomorrow after I go back. --David Shankbone 02:16, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good. --John (talk) 02:48, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I respectfully and adamantly disagree with the inclusion of the bare-breasted photograph. My brother has been one of the protesters of this movement from its inception, and two other participants are friends of mine. I discussed the issue of this photograph with my brother and friends, and they are of a mind that this woman's attention-seeking stunt is not representative of the majority of the group of protestors, and this illegal and inappropriate display is not how most people want the protest to be viewed and remembered.

I understand your point, but Wikipedia is here to cover the entire event, as perceived by all sides, not just what you want it to be. We can make it a lot clearer that this is an isolated event, but given the availability of the photo and specific media commentary about it, it belongs in the article. Among other things, it provides significant context in terms of how freedom of speech (such as it is) is being practiced and regulated in New York during this event. Wnt (talk) 06:57, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually Wikipedia never covers the entire event. As any wikipedia editor knows, generally one uses only one or two sentences from a reference, and if an incident is "isolated" it does not deserve even a mention. Gandydancer (talk) 13:30, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Um, baring breasts is not illegal in New York State. Courts rules it acceptable in 1992.--~TPW 19:54, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

On a personal note, it is my belief that such cheap attempts to be noticed through shock-value are not helpful to a group striving for higher ethical values through peaceful demonstration. --talk (talk) 1:20, 28 September 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.122.232 (talk)

o_O bare breasts are "shock value"? (i think i must have been shocked quite a few times when i was a baby ;) oh, and btw, i think it was an isloated incident and is not woth to be mentioned. 62.138.56.171 (talk) 15:13, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

"o_O" the anon was certainly correct! Bared breasts have nothing to do with this protest. I just happen to have a couple of them myself, and would have (perhaps) been willing to expose them if the protest was about a women's right to nurse in public (for instance), but in this case it was a (rather silly) attempt to gain attention. Gandydancer (talk) 17:35, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

You fucked it up mang. If this was Easy Rider or Woodstock, a kid would come up and throw a turd at yous.See WP:CENSOR. And it wasn't even fully topless, there's dresses that show as much as were in that picture. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 01:28, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• I'd agree with the general sentiment against the photo, for now. I also feel a good case can be made for WP:UNDUE. Jusdafax 02:02, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

This woman has become a symbol in NYT of the #occupywallstreet. she is not posing in an erotic way - she is an important person in this movement, and her picture has been included in numerous New York based and mainstream pubs.

The photo is not culturally comprehensible all over the world, and has the potential to offend both males and females in broad and great numbers. Any global viewer and listener knows there is homegrown individualism and real-time group collaboration at work within Occupy, but the topless shot (or other relatively unclothed shots) has the potential to discredit Occupy and the groups' struggle to be understood beyond our self-serving selves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KSRolph (talk • contribs) 08:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

• Reopened discussion below. --Lexein (talk) 22:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

POV Article

This article seems to be exactly the type of piece that the demonstrators would write in their media narrative drive. It is not objective. Some more fact based narrative would go a long ways towards making this seem encylopedic rather than propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.145.224.34 (talk) 18:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

What specific suggestions do you have, and what reliable sources are they based upon? --John (talk) 06:57, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I think there might be some editing going on here that may fall under WP:COI; still, WP:SOFIXIT is always good advice. Wnt (talk) 07:01, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes......and your specific suggestions? Gandydancer (talk) 17:42, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

"hacker group Anonymous", half of the Media subsection, the entire Personalities subsection all appear to be written with a slanted POV. Not just what is quoted, but how it is quoted. Occupy_Wall_Street#March on Brooklyn Bridge states multiple statements, but there is only one claim that is taken out of context given that it was describing the police as fearing the crowd and retreating, which is much unlikely. Ipuvaepe (talk) 14:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

"peaceful demonstration"

Using the term "peaceful demonstration" in the lead is POV, even if true (which could be debated). I propose changing it to "demonstration", which is what it links to, or "protest".--Metallurgist (talk) 15:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Good point - I will change the wording. Gandydancer (talk) 17:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Is "peaceful" really in contention? I have not yet read any reports claiming it is a violent demonstration. The word "peaceful" has a specific, objectively observable meaning, and is not POV unless there is some disagreement. 66.87.0.78 (talk) 18:46, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Unless there have been documented acts of violence by the protesters I can't imagine why "peaceful" would be contentious here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.228.28 (talk) 02:23, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I hardly consider an attempt to attack wall street and block it off via force peaceful. In fact this is worse than 9/11 at least then it was foreigners — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.79.169.226 (talk) 18:13, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

"foreigners"!? Are you arguing for a neutral point of view here? "peaceful" is potentially a matter of objective fact. While there are always matters of degree between peaceful and violent, the only violence I have heard of is from the NYPD.--IanOfNorwich (talk) 19:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Wow...did he really just compare this to 9/11? Right to assembly, regardless of whether we agree with the cause, is a fundamental Constitutional guarantee. You're going to compare Americans exercising that right, in admittedly sometimes silly ways, to the MASS MURDER of American citizens by a direct act of violence? That's a pretty huge POV you're pushing there. Show some reputable sources that indicate that Wall Street was "attacked" or shut off "by force", or, you know, shush now, and let the adults talk. As per the rest of the comments, peaceful is a term that can have more than one connotation...I think it's a bit generic of a term if what we really mean is "without violence on behalf of the protestors." Peaceful is arguably broader than that. I think a more precise way of saying it, like making mention of nonviolent demonstration, etc, would be better. 204.65.34.80 (talk) 13:53, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

What is our one demand?

The poster shown is given a caption that "What is our one demand?" indicates the absence of a single demand. Is that based on a source or is it original research? I have no inside knowledge, but to me the image of a woman standing on one leg with outstretched arms on top of a raging bull would seem to give the answer, "Balance!" - so I am reluctant to accept the interpretation provided here. Wnt (talk) 18:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

What is the demand, actually? Is this just an event where people who are angry at Wall St protest? No demand at all but just crowd influence to scare Wall St?--72.19.122.62 (talk) 20:10, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

This page does not represent the people whose political ideologies are diverse, so please open up this protest as common people uniting against wall street and their control of the white house. It is not purely an anti-capitalism movement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MJJ509 (talk • contribs) 11:54, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

No, not completely, but it still is mostly an anti-capitalism movement. The rest is from other groups, also mostly extremists of various forms. It was started by Adbusters, and has not moved into the mainstream. You shouldn't try to make this look like it's a bunch of normal people. They're not. It's like putting lipstick on a pig. That only makes the article look foolish.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 13:12, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

BTW: The opinion from an activist that's posted on HuffPo is not a good enough reference to say it's a "diverse group of demonstrators from various social and political backgrounds."

At best, you could use a reference that so-and-so says it's diverse, and let the reader decide based on the merits of that person. But a one-shot opinion piece on HuffPo isn't enough to make this worth doing.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 13:29, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

They will need to fix trade, protect innovation like we used to, roll back red tape and tort on small businesses, decertify public employee unions, and implement E-Verify while ending chain migration to fix this country. And it's just not going to happen unfortunately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.5.98 (talk) 04:59, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Anthony Bologna be merged into Occupy Wall Street. Bologna only gained media attention after the Occupy Wall Street incident, and while he has been involved in alleged civil rights violations in the past, none of these garnered any media attention until the macing incident. There's really no need for a separate article, since all of the media articles I've seen are in some way connected to the incident discussed on this page. Originally I had asked for a redirect, but more information has been added to Bologna's page than is here, so if we are to redirect his page to this one, some of the information on his page will first have to be merged here. Inks.LWC (talk) 22:17, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the above proposal to merge the Anthony Bologna page into the Occupy Wall Street article. Christian Roess (talk) 22:29, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I disagree.

The Anthony Bologna article has a lot of detailed information that would be off topic for this entry about the Occupy Wall Street Protests. In fact, many of the sources cited in the Anthony Bologna article do not refer to the Occupy Wall Street incident at all--specifically the following:

• Shapiro, Julie (May 4, 2010). "Commanding Officer Leaves First Precinct After Five Years of Service"
• Aries de la Cruz (2001-05). "POLICE BLAMED FOR INCITING MAYDAY RIOT IN NYC. AGAIN."
• Amateau, Albert (June 24, 2005). "New captain busted pushers, gangsters and cops". Downtown Express.

Furthermore, many of those sources that do refer to that incident also refer to unrelated incidents, such as the alleged civil rights violations committed by Anthony Bologna during the 2004 Republican National Convention protests--specifically:

• "Hackers grab Goldman CEO's personal data". CBS News. September 27, 2011.
• Read, Max (September 26, 2011). "Pepper Spray Cop Already Had Civil-Rights Complaint". Gawker.com
• And an additional Huffington Post citation that was deleted by the same editor who suggested merging the articles (who also deleted numerous other sources from the article).

The suggestion that the articles be merged seems, on its face, designed to shield officer Bologna from public scrutiny, rather than being based on objective criteria. PromiseOfNY (talk) 22:46, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

That is a very baseless accusation you make charging another editor with trying to promote some sort of shadowy censorship in favor of the subject of an article. I remind you to assume good faith. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 22:55, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

And in no way do I think his page should be deleted. If people type his name into Wikipedia, it will still redirect here (as it should). Inks.LWC (talk) 23:03, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

*Support merge. Bologna is only famous because of the alleged pepper spray incident. It makes sense to redirect that article here. --John (talk) 00:22, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose merge. I didn't dig around very long and was finding articles about Bologna from long before any controversy. He occupied a high-level position, controlling police in Lower Manhattan, a vast number of people, and (rightly or wrongly) was credited with lowering the crime rate in the precinct during his tenure there. This is all pretty important stuff to cover on its own. Then we have this controversy, which extends over multiple events. It doesn't matter that some media didn't publish about it until this time; the point is, the sources are out there and they're about more than one event. Wnt (talk) 00:56, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose merging of the two articles. They are on two different topics. As long as they link to each other, merging the two articles is quite unneeded and does a disservice to readers. Jusdafax 01:09, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose merge per Wnt and Jusdafax. --John (talk) 01:21, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support only because the merge source lacks notability for an article on its own and that trumps other considerations in this case. I.e. merge or delete. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 02:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose merging of the two articles. The details of Bologna's biography and of his participation in other controversial and noncontroversial incidents have no relevance to the Occupy Wall Street article. PromiseOfNY (talk) 16:13, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose merging of the articles. The actions of a police officier are connected to the protests, however it does not belong to the protests' main article, as it goes "offtopic".Mrwho00tm (talk) 21:07, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support or Delete he's a police officer that became slightly notable because of his actions during the a occupy wall street protest. He should only be mentioned, at best, in the occupy wall street article. If he did something notable outside of pepper spraying some people, than he should have his own article. Can we get a better and less biased picture of him?Racingstripes (talk) 05:35, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose merging the two article. The idea is just insane, I can't believe it's even being entertained. Nick carson (talk) 14:27, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
• Support. The article is devoted primarily to disparaging Bologna. If it is not merged I am going to seriously consider nominating for deletion on the grounds that it is an attack page. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:19, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose - Were this officer just notable for his actions at the ongoing Occupy Wall Street event, I would wholeheartedly agree that this page should be merged into the other one. However, this police officer is notable for actions on other occasions and, therefore, is deserving of a Wikipedia article for himself. --Sharkface^T/_C 17:43, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
  • If he was Bull Connor I would agree with you. But I just don't see him rising to that level of notoriety just yet. ScottyBerg (talk) 19:55, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

• Support merging. this person is of no note other than in connection w/Occupy Wall St. all information pertaining to his record can be included in a section devoted to him. Jvol (talk) 18:57, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

"New Poster"

I see no evidence that the McDonald's poster is from AdBusters; it appears to be a slam on the protesters and should not be put back up. It's also a low quality image. --David Shankbone 21:49, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the poster which is supposedly the work of the editor. The threatening message was highly improper as well. We will need a ref to show that this poster is being used to represent the protest before it is again suggested for this article. Gandydancer (talk) 19:20, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Indiscriminate changes: Occupy Wall Street is in San Francisco?

There is a strong case to be made for the timeline after looking at today's edits. The Infobox now says San Francisco is the location of Occupy Wall Street and information about the occupation of banks in San Francisco is in the main article. What is Occupy Wall Street? Is it a generic term that now refers to all the subsequent Occupy movements? Ok, then let's keep San Francisco in here. But isn't that POV? Why aren't other cities listed as part of the Occupy Wall Street (in the generic sense) movement? I think consensus will need to be reached on this issue eventually. I think San Francisco does not belong in the infobox. Christian Roess (talk) 00:45, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Now this reference to San Francisco could be worked into the Timeline of Occupy Wall Street (in fact another editor has already added it today!). For example, just a one sentence NPOV line in the timeline like: "Protesters in San Francisco claim to be inspired by the Occupy Wall Street Movement". Then add a citation to back up this statement. If Occupy San Francisco becomes a sustained movement like Occupy Wall Street, then start a new Wikipedia article. Christian Roess (talk) 00:52, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Now the poster in the infobox is changed. I put the original OWS poster back in. I suggest that this article which documents a current event is also a "historical" record. The new poster with "join U.S." looks like an advertisement to spread the movement across the U.S.. It is not Wikipedia's responsibility to update this site to correspond with the Occupy Wall Street's every change. We are not a mouthpiece for the movement. This page is documenting this situation that is ongoing, centered around a core group of 200-300 supporters camped out in Liberty Plaza. The infobox lists 2,000-3,000 in the infobox. Once again that changes. The group's supporters do swell to those numbers on certain days. But news reports from different sources indicate that the core group occupying Liberty Park/Plaza on a consistent basis (eating there, sleeping, cooking) is NOT more than 200-300 Christian Roess (talk) 12:35, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Anonymous' threat to the NYPD

I found this article where Anonymous directly threatens the nypd, surely this is relevant. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/27/anonymous-threatens-nypd-_n_983941.html --132.198.160.246 (talk) 15:24, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree and I added that information. Gandydancer (talk) 14:30, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism Watch

Can we put some sort of advisory notice on this article alerting readers to be on the lookout for deliberate vandalism? Incidents of vandalism have been popping up. Also one of those headers that states that this is a current event (I forget the tag for it but you more astute wikipedians will know what I’m talking about). PGRandom (talk) 19:54, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

If there's a lot of vandalism it can be semiprotected. But looking at the history I'm not seeing that much vandalism. ScottyBerg (talk) 20:02, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

 Done. Added the current event header. --Fayerman (talk) 00:09, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Anti-Flag is officially supporting the protests now.

You can read their blog entry here. http://www.anti-flag.com/?p=146

o.o Off topic but my captcha was chestranch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kranchan (talk • contribs) 12:26, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

October 1st sources

NYTimes coverage of Brooklyn Bridge arrests. I noticed that the "arrests" number is up in the infobox, but the recent arrests and Brooklyn Bridge incident isn't yet in the article body. This notes that a NY Times reporter was actually arrested at this time. Thought the source may be useful. LoriLee (talk) 23:33, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Casualties

Arrests are casualties? If someone breaks the law and they are arrested, we consider them casualties?Racingstripes (talk) 01:42, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

98.244.72.132 (talk)Please note that it is Arrests SLASH Casualties, as in one or the other. It then lists the number of arrests and the number of injuries —Preceding undated comment added 04:23, 2 October 2011 (UTC).

There is now 'arrests' and 'casualties' in the Infobox. Someone should mention: "4 maced" and perhaps: "dozens dragged", "several lightly injured"... --Fayerman (talk) 04:57, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

it should also be mention how it was the protesters faults for resisting a lawful arrest!!!141.165.191.73 (talk) 05:11, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Ive seen the videos and they didnt look like they were resisting--132.198.76.149 (talk) 15:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Total arrested?

Just wonder, because I just read this claiming that the past day alone has had 700, citing NYPD, and I don't want to change the 500 figure without mentioning it here. 68.227.169.59 (talk) 04:06, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

All major outlets updated their count to 700 at Brooklyn Bridge. --Fayerman (talk) 04:22, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

BIASED ARTICLE???

CAN WE PLEASE GET SOMEONE WHO ISN'T BIASED TO FIX THIS ARTICLE!!!ALSO PLEASE CITE EVERY FACT PUT IN HERE ESPECIALLY THE NUMBERS!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.165.191.73 (talk) 04:42, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

You. --Fayerman (talk) 04:52, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

could I have a better response than just the one word "you"???!!! I'm not sure what that exactly means!?!141.165.191.73 (talk) 05:10, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I think he means be bold and fix it yourself. Or, for another way to say it:

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top.
The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).

—Darkwind (talk) 05:31, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Commentary on the Demographics of the crowd?

Would it be appropriate to do a section on the demographics of the crowd such as there race, wealth status, political ideology. I think that this article needs it in order to more fully develop it. 141.165.191.73 (talk) 05:08, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

(New to editing so bear with me please :) ) I've been down there most days spending a few hours taking video of the people at the event so I'm fairly familiar with some of what goes on down there at Liberty Park Plaza.

The demographics consist of the following (my estimation) crowd numbers started at under 1,000 the first day then dropped to approximately 100 to 150 the first week. On Rainy days the numbers are knocked down to about 1/2 of that, with only 1/4 the total at night. The following Saturday (Oct 24th) numbers jumped to several hundred. Following the pepper spray incident numbers increased to a few hundred. As celebrities and major media began to show up on Monday & Tuesday the numbers increased to about 300 -400. (I'm not privy to details on the weekend of Oct 1st - I was not there but a reasonably reliable on-site source is putting the numbers at 2,500-3,000).

Those sleeping at the park consist of a mix of area NY'rs and out-of-towners. The age range of this group varies but it strikes me as an under 30-40 crowd. During the day people from the tri-state Area and the Outer Boroughs stop by making up the majority of the rest of the numbers. This group varies greatly in age, background and education level (to much for me to really give any clear numbers).

Race? To difficult to say but ethnicity seems fairly representative of what you get in the five boroughs(Caucasian, Puerto Rican/ Hispanic, African American, Semitic, etc). Wealth Status? That's too difficult a question to answer and I couldn't begin to guess but again - fairly representative of the five Boroughs. Ideology? That has varied. The actions of the first few week (such as the Friday sympathy demonstrations for Troy Davis & Sotheby's Union workers) left them with what struck me as a rather liberal crowd. But since the pepper-spraying incident the political landscape is much more varied.

What ideology are they espousing? Everyone has their own ideologies down there but they've adopted an Anarchist form of "Consensus Government" that strikes me as coming from some sort of "Volunteerism Philosophy". Use the word; "In-charge" and you'll get a 5 minute lecture on the evils of authoritarian mind-sets.

I'm not sure if this helps at all. If you can tell me what you specifically want maybe I can do better? TheTruePooka (Pooka666) (Pooka666 (talk) 06:47, 2 October 2011 (UTC))

• So there weren't 10,000 people there as the information in the article says. Somebody changed it back from what I had done and didn't even cite any appropriate sources i'll change it from 0-1000 using what you told me but i'll try and find some appropriate sources for it. AMERICAN 1 ENGINEER (talk) 07:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
• so i wouldn't be going to far as to say these people consist of 20 to upper 30 somethings, who hold far-left wing views, pretty much nobody but communist, anarchist and socialist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AMERICAN 1 ENGINEER (talk • contribs) 08:40, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Without a reputable source(s), "going too far" is exactly what you're doing. Please refrain from generalizations that might be construed as POV pushing.204.65.34.80 (talk) 13:57, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

False information, unreliable primary sources.

A quick example, in the lead it has three citations for the claim that there are events in 52 cities...but a closer look clearly shows that none of those sources can be considered reliable, all being heavily biased in favour of the protests. Perhaps that they are making the (incorrect) claim should be in the article, but to have it in the lead without mention that it's wrong is severely undue weight. Also, don't respond with 'you', not every IP who comes here is going to know how to edit wikipedia and the article is semi-protected. 92.16.104.63 (talk) 14:25, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I posted 'You' (04:52, 2 October 2011) in response to another poster before the article was semi-protected (07:08, 2 October 2011). Editing an article is almost as easy as writing here. But I agree with you that any unreliable and unsourced facts should be removed. --Fayerman (talk) 21:19, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Article restructuration need

I moved together similar contents, 4 sections now make 2 new super-sections.

1. #Chronology — now hosting both key dates and the major incidents,
2. #Demands and Goals — now hosting all the demands and political view of the protesters.

Please, a native English speaker is welcome to make these two section more balanced in size. The chronology section goes too much in details about incidents and arrests, which can be moved to the chronology & peeper spray articles. The Demand and goals section sound like a poorly written draft with content duplication. Yug (talk) 14:39, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I believe that you are being a little too critical of the article. If you have not worked on an article such as this it is hard to understand how difficult it can be. Keep in mind that as editors we have diverse backgrounds and viewpoints, and must negotiate what is/is not included. On the other hand, most of us desire a good article that fairly expresses all points of view, and that is what inspires us to go forward. From Day 1 we had no idea where this protest was going - and we still don't, so we add, subtract, and reorganize as we go along. I'd say that all-in-all we're doing a very good job! Gandydancer (talk) 15:39, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree ;) I've been active and structuring about 5 to 10 similar socio-political articles since 2005: French riots, Tibetan riots, Greek riots, Tunisian revolution, Egyptian revolution, Libyan revolution, Occupy Wall street. Editing and being bold to avoid content duplication, clarify the socio-economic background, goals, and increase the quality. I stated directions I pushed, and where we should continue to push forward. I made about 20 edits, moves, merges, copyedits, but I'm simply not a native speaker. My ability to merge/rewrite sections involve... a poor grammar. But yes, we are moving toward a better article. Cheer ! Yug (talk) 19:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Can someone merge the remaining chronology list to Timeline of Occupy Wall Street? Perhaps a short paragraph written in prose would suffice in the Chronology of events section. Prose is preferred in articles as prose allows the presentation of detail and clarification of context, in a way that a simple list may not. (See WP:EMBED). --Fayerman (talk) 16:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Vague statement from NYPD spokesperson about ongoing legal cases

"Spokesman for the New York Police Department, Paul Browne, vouched that protesters were given "multiple warnings" not to block pedestrian walkways on the bridge, and were arrested when they refused." It's unclear from this statement which protesters (among the 700+ arrested) were warned or what some protestors (among the 700+ arrested) did to "refuse". There's also no citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.201.228.28 (talk) 17:23, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Open Source Posters Available

Should we include a couple of these open source images? I vote yes. http://www.occupytogether.org/downloadable-posters/ KSRolph (talk) 18:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I love the idea, but there isn't any clear licensing set out on that page. I think that you'd have to follow the usual process of getting the artist's permission to release under an appropriate license in order for it to be considered "open source" in a way that is useful here. I expect that most, if not all, of the artists would be willing.--~TPW 18:29, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Media spin?

I just visited two most popular new sites for Polish speakers.

One lacked any information about the 700+ arrests on B'klyn Bridge (despite having a plethora of "curiosity" "world news" articles) (the site is onet.pl).

The other claims that one of the main issues the Wall Street protesters want addressed is mistreatment of minorities, particularly muslim (http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Dramatyczne-sceny-w-Nowym-Jorku---700-osob-zatrzymano,wid,13853254,wiadomosc.html).

"Ich uczestnicy buntują się przeciw nieuczciwemu - jak twierdzą - traktowaniu mniejszości, w tym muzułmanów, a także m.in. nadmiernemu użyciu siły przez policję, dużemu bezrobociu i przejmowaniu domów należących do ludzi, których nie stać na spłatę pożyczek."

"The participants [of the protests] are rebelling against unfair - they claim - treatment of minorities, including muslims, as well as disproportionate use of force by the police, high unemployment, and repossessions of houses belonging to those unable to afford mortgage payments"

Seriously? That's the core issues?

The second site does usually cater to somewhat more right-wing leaning readers, but the discrepancy between the (admittedly, vague) demands of the protesters and those outlined in the article are hardly something that could've resulted from confusion or lack of knowledge...

I wonder if anybody else noticed this in non-english news? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.47.205 (talk) 18:21, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

This polish news don't make sense. The movement goals are knew: oppose the corruption of democracy by and for the benefit of the 1% richests. Yug (talk) 19:38, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I think you are missing the point - the events are portrayed (if they are) as something different. My question was whether or not other non-english news sites put similar spin when (if) they report them.

Why did you feel that pointing out such manipulation deserves "non sense" tag? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.47.205 (talk) 20:07, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Just: the journalist made a non sense very poor job not needing our consideration. I'm like you, I wonder if this is on good will or a conscientious corruption/hidding of the truth, but can't say. Conclusion: better to focus on other (sourcable) issues. Yug (talk) 20:18, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Which makes you slap a non-sense tag, hiding the body of the text, on a request to clarify if similar tactics are used by news aggregates in other languages, because obviously such tactics, even if reported (I cited one source from a major Polish site), are beyond the scope of what Wikipedia should cover? Right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.47.205 (talk) 16:47, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

No response, removing the non-sense tag as unwarranted. This is a discussion of possibilities. If it was a set fact, I'd modify the article itself. 66.234.47.205 (talk) 17:10, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Adbsuters description

In the main title it's stated that "It was initially called for by Adbusters, an anti-capitalist group based in Canada"

On adbusters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adbusters page it states

Adbusters Media Foundation is a not-for-profit, anti-consumerist organization

Also further down on the OccupyWallStreet page it states

a Canadian-based group, the Adbusters Media Foundation, best known for its advertisement-free anti-consumerist magazine called Adbusters

Can someone please correct it, I believe it should be anti-consumerist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DdraigX (talk • contribs) 19:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Fixed - thanks! Gandydancer (talk) 19:50, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Varunvkrishnan, 2 October 2011

:JP Morgan donation -> actually 6 months ago
Donation from JP morgan chase - can it be separated to a different section? Also would it be interesting to add details of the response of other Wall streen firms? Varun (talk) 20:20, 2 October 2011 (UTC) Actuay 6 months old. To edit or remove. I'm on it. Yug (talk) 20:41, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Emchristiansen, 2 October 2011

If the page mentions Lupe Fiasco's poem "Moneyman", it should link to the poem, not to the Wikipedia page on poetry as it currently does. This is a link to the poem on Lupe Fiasco's official site:

http://www.lupefiasco.com/news/ad146c-to-the-sep17-occupiers-moneyman/

Emchristiansen (talk) 20:45, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose; per the policy on external links we do not link to outside sites in the text of an article. The citation is fine.--~TPW 21:03, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

•  Not done There is no article about the poem and at this point it's not likely there will be one. There's already a mention of Fiasco's support for the protest. Steven Walling • talk 21:05, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request - Protesters with Troy Davis Placards

Request to add this text: "Some demonstrators were seen wearing "I am Troy Davis" placards on images in the news media. Troy Davis was executed in September 2011 after a lengthy battle for clemency."

I would place this in the first segment that describes reasons for OWS to act. Will contain Washington Post ref with link to image, and link to Troy Davis. KSRolph (talk) 20:56, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

You should be able to edit the article regardless of the semi-protection, and that edit sounds just fine. Let me know if you can't... Steven Walling • talk 21:01, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Archive bot

With the activity on this page, I propose setting up archiving via a bot. Please weigh in, and (if you support) offer suggestions about how old threads ought to be prior to archiving.--~TPW 20:59, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, sounds good. Steven Walling • talk 21:02, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I added the code but commented it out; once there's consensus it's ready to go. I opted for archiving threads seven days after the last entry, which of course can be changed.--~TPW 21:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Cost

Does anyone know a way of determining how much money these protests have cost each municipality. Either police officers are from the local precinct and they're making overtime, or the police officers from other areas in the city. I have to assume the cost has to be pretty high.Racingstripes (talk) 21:54, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't really see the point. You want to balance this price with how much money these bankers have cost each municipality ? Yug (talk) 21:57, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

No, I think the request was to document what the cost of the protest is. That is probably verifiable and neutral.--~TPW 22:00, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

To assign the cost of additional police manpower to the protest assumes that the additional manpower is justified and necessary, and that assumption (absent convincing supporting evidence) is hardly neutral. Cities overreact when they perceive (or think they perceive) a threat; in particular law enforcement overreacts. Also putting additional manpower on the street gives the impression to TV viewers that the situation is more dangerous than it in fact is, an impression that those in power may have a vested interest in creating. Politicians who want to appear "tough on crime" may put more police on the street for the voters to see on TV. To blindly assume that the police presence is necessary and justified and assign the cost of it to the protests is far from neutral. - Elmarco 02:28, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Regardless, it is not up for us to decide whether it is warranted or not. Nor is it up to us to make implications that the cost of the response is relevant. Without sources to indicate any of this, this is just conjecture. Municipalities provide police presence for pretty much any large gathering, not because they expect violence, but to guard against the potential. This is the same for planned/permitted events as it is for unplanned demonstrations. Before we start adding information about cost, we need to be careful about finding sources that indicate it is relevant, indicate that it is notable and been an issue. Calling it out specifically without any backing is as much POV pushing as downplaying it as overreaction is.204.65.34.80 (talk) 14:01, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

resource NYT October 2nd.

‘White Shirts’ of Police Dept. Take on Enforcer Role by Al Baker and Joseph Goldstein, published October 2, 2011 in The New York Times. 99.190.85.170 (talk) 23:28, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Canadian cities are doing occupations

Hey there the movement is spreading to a few Canadian cities as well, http://ca.news.yahoo.com/activists-occupy-torontos-financial-district-wall-street-protests-195435326.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.88.83.35 (talk) 23:38, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

The following link was circulating at Delicious (website) during mid September: "Yahoo Appears To Be Censoring Email Messages About Wall Street Protests" By Lee Fang on Sep 20, 2011 at 1:50 pm http://thinkprogress.org/media/2011/09/20/323856/yahoo-censoring-occupy-wall-street-protests Ottawahitech (talk) 18:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Stop putting in non-cited information in

There is a lot of information being put in the article that isn't being cited and sourced. This why I got the article protected, so that I could stop people just dumping whatever they want in it. If you want to change something, it needs to be talked about on this page before! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AMERICAN 1 ENGINEER (talk • contribs) 00:18, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Oki doki. See comment above. Ottawahitech (talk) 18:14, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

American Engineer should follow his own suggestion and quit adding information without a source. Gandydancer (talk) 17:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Motive & Goals of protesters

Shouldn't the main goal be listed as ending corruption? That's the main focus with the protests and it isn't even listed in the goals of protesters (section). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.4.168 (talk) 01:08, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

There are many different goals of the protesters. I have not been personally, but I have friends and relatives who have been. "Ending corruption" is a vague term and probably would not be synonymous with all the protesters. S51438 (talk) 01:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

• Their goals seem to be solidifying somewhat; Occupy Wall Street has released a Declaration of Occupation and a working list of goals. - Elmarco 02:09, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Extremely unorganized

For some reason when I read this article I feel extremely scatter-brained. There seems to be useless information everywhere and it is not organized correctly. I helped write the 2011 Wisconsin protests article and it went much more smoothly than this one. I will continue to make small edits everywhere but would need general consensus before making major changes. S51438 (talk) 01:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

You certainly did not ask for consensus before adding the Alex Jones "editorial" or the non-related section discussing union/corporate political donations. Gandydancer (talk) 03:42, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

This edit is a violation of WP:SYNTH and WP:NPOV. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:47, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

• Well this protest has only been going on for roughly two weeks now. It's a very fluid and ongoing situation and it will take time for the facts to settle in order to write a more mature article. My main concern is to make sure that this article doesn't get hijacked by people with agenda and that it represents the truthfulness of the situation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AMERICAN 1 ENGINEER (talk • contribs) 04:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The truth of the situation is that people wearing OBAMA 2012 shirts have been reported at the protests. But we wouldn't DARE mention that would we?! S51438 (talk) 05:18, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source for it then feel free to put it in. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 05:37, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

• But yeah, I agree that this article is unorganized and poorly written. There is so much unsupported stuff put in here!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AMERICAN 1 ENGINEER (talk • contribs) 07:44, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Then why not add "citation needed" notes and remove it after a reasonable amount of time if a ref is not provided? Gandydancer (talk) 14:57, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

"Noted" hypocrisy?

Noted by whom? And what makes it important enough to mention? - Elmarco 03:11, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I just added the following to the article:

Accusation of hypocrisy regarding protestors' alleged opposition to corporate welfare
In an opinion piece at infowars.com, Paul Joseph Watson pointed out the hypocrisy of protestors who supported the reelection of President Obama, stating, "How can a self-proclaimed Occupy Wall Street protester simultaneously support the man whose 2008 campaign was bankrolled by Wall Street, whose 2012 campaign is reliant on Wall Street to an even greater extent, and whose cabinet was filled with Wall Street operatives?" While Senator, Obama had voted in favor of the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008, which provided $700 billion in corporate welfare to Bank of America, Citigroup, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Wells Fargo, Capital One, Bank of New York Mellon, and many other large corporations.

Mk2z0h (talk) 10:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Paul Joseph Watson points are a serie of unsourced false associations : "1. Obama was free and happy to support these banks ; 2. OWS protesters all support Obama ; 3. OWS protesters close their eyes upon the influence of corporate on the President Obama." These points are clear POV and abusive association. This source is a complete non-sense NOT worth citation in wikipedia. A core and cristal clear demand of Occupy wall street is actually the opposite, the OWS movement is opposed to the strong influence of the financial sector which tied up all the US president, his allies and his opponents (senators, etc.). Thus, this source is a low level attack with an huge biases : associate to the OWS movement the opposite of their demands, and deserves removal from the article. Yug (talk) 10:54, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Impact of #occupywallstreet

Currently there is no information about the impact of the movemtn, i've read that it has started similar movements in boston, denver, chicago etc, there is now a website http://www.occupytogether.org/ "an unofficial hub for all of the events springing up across the country in solidarity with Occupy Wall St." which should definitly be included--120.151.136.251 (talk) 11:31, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done Inserting that kind of information would violate multiple policies of Wikipedia (e.g. WP:NOR, WP:VERIFY, WP:NPV, etc.) --Fayerman (talk) 14:36, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Problem tags: explanation needed

The following tags have been added to this page:

• It may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards.
• Its neutrality is disputed.
• It needs to be updated.

Can someone please explain the rationale behind placing these tags and say, specifically, WHAT needs to be cleaned up, what parts are not NPOV and what needs to be updated? Without a talkpage discussion, these templates are not only worthless, they also make the article look ugly. If someone can't provide an explanation (which is required under the guidelines) for each of the three templates, I will delete the unsupported ones. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 13:25, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree with the Neutrality tag. The whole article seems to read like a press release loaded with implied praise for the protestors, repetition of POV-pushing claims from unreliable sources, etc. I'd say removing the tag for lack of explicit explanation is putting the cart before the horse. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 13:37, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It's required to explain what the problems are and engage in talk page discussion when placing that template. The point of it is to discuss and resolve the issues through consensus. Otherwise, the template just becomes a weapon for people to drop any old place when they don't like something. Can you give me one or two examples of sentences you feel are POV and/or present the group in a promotional or unbalanced manner? Which provided sources are unreliable? We need to start the discussion in order to finish it and resolve the issues. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:06, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I left the NPOV tag in for now since you seem to be finding and deleting some puffery, but I removed the "needs to be updated" tag. Everything on Wikipedia needs to be updated, really, so that template doesn't really help anything. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:19, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Examples? I'll start with a single example, which IMO ought to be enough. Take a look at the entire "Brooklyn Bridge mass arrest section" contained in this previous version that stood before I began editing: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Occupy_Wall_Street&oldid=453682209. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 14:37, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

No, one example is not enough. I agree with Burpelson in that tags are sometimes slapped on to suggest that an article has numerous problems to suggest that the article is not trustworthy. Gandydancer (talk) 14:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

There are numerous problems, and that is why the tag needs to stay. Hell, the "single" example I provided showed several problems all at once. Take a look through the edits I have made if you want several more examples. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 14:58, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm removing the NPOV tag. I currently see no reason for it and no one has provided substantial evidence, with specific examples, of why it's needed.--Johnsemlak (talk) 19:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Political views of demonstrators

I find the article to have an inconsistent treatment of the politics of the demonstrators. It says "The protests have brought together people of many political positions including Democrats, libertarians, anarchists,[4] and socialists". This is fine, however, the source used for this information also gives equal weight to one of the supporters being "Conservative". My suggestion is to either list Conservative as one of the groups represented or not to list any specific political factions at all. The reality of the protests seems to be a lack of political specificity.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Neap24 (talk • contribs) 13:48, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

To use a common programming trope, consider the possibility that the participants might view the movement's "lack of political specificity" as a feature, not a bug. In other words, some would see it as a point in the movement's favor. - Elmarco 00:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I have big concerns about the neutrality of that statement in it's current form. Almost all of the mainstream media sources that i can find on the protests present them as left-aligned (left of the democrats even, often "the left's answer to the Tea Party" or something to that effect) and with the exception of maybe Ron Paul i can find no notable figure or organization right of center that supports the protests. I feel that a lack of political color is more a desire on the part of the organizers than a fact on the ground and by giving equal weight to say "liberals" and "conservatives" that paragraph paints a distorted picture. Helixdq (talk) 19:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Use of the civil conflict template

It doesn't seem appropriate to use Template:Infobox civil conflict here, for what is still a demonstration (to my ear, a "civil conflict" implies the government is using more than just its power to arrest people). It also diminishes the motives of the protesters to say that they are in opposition to the NYPD, who would officially have no stand on the political views, instead of industry and the federal government. Cmprince (talk) 13:51, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Was just thinking this. Isn't this tag usually used for civil wars? As for the opposition to NYPD, it's my understanding that some protestors have complained about allegedly brutal tactics by police. Is that what you're referring to ?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Factchecker atyourservice (talk • contribs) 13:57, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Factchecker, just to confirm, did you strike out your first sentence yourself (being ironic, perhaps) or did someone else come along and do that? - Elmarco 00:51, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I struck it out myself in an act of contrition. No irony was intended, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 02:52, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

• This event is a protest, with demonstrations. This protest is civil; it's a non-military series of events. The government does not have to arrest anyone for a protest to qualify to be a civil conflict. If you don't think the NYPD is a party to Occupy Wall Street, then you should probably dispute the placement of the NYPD entry within the infobox. --Fayerman (talk) 14:11, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I suppose while this fits the definition of "conflict", I'm used to seeing "civil conflict" (especially in Wikipedia) associated with more aggressive, sustained crackdowns and violence on one or both sides (either the use of riot police or the military), such as in Bahrain, Yemen, or the London riots. If the box has been used in other, similar non-violent protests, I would not object, but I have not found such a counterexample. Cmprince (talk) 14:36, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Assuming, for the purpose of this argument, that the term civil conflict is used only for violent protests -- the words "civil conflict" in this infobox are used only within the infobox metadata that is visible only to the editors of the article. Template:Infobox civil conflict is used in this article because the fields of that infobox are highly suitable for populating with relevant data. Out of curiosity, if you had to create an infobox for Occupy Wall Street from scratch, how would you name it? And if you had to create one, what else would be different? --Fayerman (talk) 15:05, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Fair point about the name of the template: that's not really pertinent. The template identifies the parties of a (typically) violent clash, and is regularly used that way. While the template might be used here to convey other information, when I see the box used here, I associate it with other articles that have used it. At this point, I don't see this event being similar enough to other recent conflicts whose articles used the civil conflict box. (I'll admit to not yet knowing what should constitute "similar enough".) I write all this out to point out that how we use templates may introduce an editorial bias, even without invoking the template's name in the article, simply by association. Cmprince (talk) 15:32, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, I have never liked that we use this template for protest pages as it seems to represent certain facts. Perhaps it is time for a new protest infobox? かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 15:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The choice of template can inadvertently label a situation as being something it's not. - Elmarco 00:51, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Personalities

this section is a mess; the paragraphs are not structured in a way that makes them coherent, and it comes across as a laundry list of random statements made by celebrities and newspeople. Taking a list of quotes and putting them in paragraph form doesn't make magically create a paragraph:) Mrathel (talk) 14:18, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Why not restructure it? Everyone is welcome to edit Wikipedia. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 14:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I would prefer to let someone already engaged in the article do it, as they will know how to organize it better than I do. But the paragraphs need introductory sentences and the quotes need to be grouped and ordered in a meaningful way. Mrathel (talk) 14:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It is understandable that sections such as this do tend to get disorganized as new information is added, however I'd sure agree that it is presently quite muddled and needs improvement. Unfortunately, it was somewhat better until recently when somebody "improved" it. Gandydancer (talk) 15:03, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Centralized Discussion: The neutrality of this article is disputed

Please report non-neutrality issues and perhaps we may get rid of any problems with the article.Gandydancer (talk) 15:17, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

See discussion above Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 15:36, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there are complaints scattered throughout, but perhaps we may place them here so they may be addressed properly. Gandydancer (talk) 15:43, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Reprinted from above, for starters: The whole article seems to read like a press release loaded with implied praise for the protestors, repetition of POV-pushing claims from unreliable sources, etc. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 15:51, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

As an experienced editor I am sure that you are aware that specific points must be made if they are to be corredted. Gandydancer (talk) 16:35, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I have noticed that some editors are tacking on labels to the protesters and/or Adbusters such as "anti-capitalist", "anti-consumerist", "environmentalist" and so on, which are definitely viewed in a negative light by some. They are obvious attempts to diminish and prevent conservative support. yonnie (talk) 16:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Adbusters itself explicitly SAYS it is for the purpose of anti-consumerism. Furthermore, it is not us, but other reliable sources like The Guardian that call them anti-capitalist. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 16:23, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The Guardian is referring to the demonstrators, not the Adbuster's group. :yonnie, I'd suggest that you look at the ref to see if the label was used - for instance in the case of Adbusters, the label anti-consumerist is used and it is used on their article page as well. As a matter of fact I have twice changed "anti-captalist" to the correct "anti-consumerist". Gandydancer (talk) 16:32, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

My only concern is the breathless enthusiasm by some editors "reporting from the field" on the talk page here. I would only reiterate to editors reading this that Wikipedia is not a place to earn your pulitzer prize and that if you are trying to start a social movement by editing wikipedia, you may have a conflict of interest issue and might want to review the WP:NPOV policy. As for content, I do see lots of promise as long as this article doesn't become too "pro" or "anti" with repsect to the rectitude of the protest. One example I would point out is that the article lists a "Celebrity support" section where several famous people have made stands 'for' it... has there been any public condemnation at all? That would be one way to pursue balance. Peace, MPS (talk) 16:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Have you tried to add any alternate POV info? Gandydancer (talk) 16:40, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Proposal: Pull the NPOV tag for now

I suggest we pull the tag. With the possible exception of the 'Goals' section which has in any case been heavily CN-tagged, the article appears balanced and very well sourced. It may also be worth noting that the page was tagged [1] by what appears to be a Single Purpose Account with very few edits who has a surprisingly extensive knowledge of Wikipedia policy. Jusdafax 19:46, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I've removed it.--Johnsemlak (talk) 19:58, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Background info

May be useful to expand the background section:

• A WashPost interview with David Graeber covering some of the origins of the campaign.
• The list of tactical briefings on the adbusters campaign site.

– SJ + 17:34, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Participants section

The infobox list of participants is growing unwieldy. I accept some responsibility for this, as I started to expand it, but it is quickly dawning on me that since this is an ongoing affair, the list will grow as the conflict continues. Further, there doesn't seem to be a clear opposition. Certainly opposition exists, but shall we list it as "The Man" or "The Status-Quo"? Obviously not. A new section needs to be created to list the participants. The current section on the political views of the protesters, and celebrity supporters, should be merged together. The celebrity supporters, while certainly an element of the media reaction, are more accurately typified as participants in the loose sense that they are donating and collaborating in a way that is no different from other protesters who are just there for a short time, but are still counted as participants. I'll be creating this section now; this entry is simply an explanation for those who want justification for my changes.--Cast (talk) 17:38, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Why were comments Roseanne Barr made removed?

Roseanne Barr recently appeared on RT at the scene of the protests and suggested that anyone who makes over $100 million a year should be sent to "education camps" and that anyone who refuses should be beheaded. Why was this information deleted? I have an ever growing feeling that several of the editors on this page have an agenda they are pushing and any opposition to the protests is immediately deemed insignificant or in violation of some rule. This behavior is not appreciated. There is tons of criticism, shaming, and downright condemnation of the protests from Michael Bloomberg, Alex Jones, and countless other people, including Fox News pundits (Not surprising). Why is any criticism of the protests promptly removed? I even tried to create a "criticism" section with information already stated in the article and it was subsequently removed. I have been called in violation of NPOV several times already (mostly focusing on an article about Alex Jones criticizing the protests), but I have noticed that several articles that are in unanimous support of the protesters have NOT been deemed in violation of NPOV. Why is this? The truth of the matter is this article is being run by a few rogue Wikipedians who want to silence differing opinions. S51438 (talk) 21:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Cool story, bro. Meanwhile, "criticism" sections are inherently POV and shouldn't be permitted in all but a few cases in which the criticism was itself noteworthy. Other wise, balanced sections for response are preferred. However, some sources are also themselves inherently unverifiable, and so cannot be used as a report upon events, but instead must be used as a report on the way segments of the population of responded to a situation. So lets take Alex Jones for example here. This is a man with a very particular point of view, and not known for his neutrality. I'm sure he would agree with me that he isn't neutral. He has his point of view and he sticks with it. We can't cite reports by him on what is happening on the ground, but we can cite his opinion when it becomes useful for reader understanding. As for Rosanne? Well, as soon as we have a comedy section for sarcastic remarks, I'm sure we can put her call for a French Terror there. Until then, those remarks are not noteworthy. --Cast (talk) 22:00, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that her comments about beheadings really have much to do with these protests; reliable sources that have covered her ridiculous idea have focused on her and not mentioned the Occupy Wall Street backdrop. However, things like Bloomberg's criticisms of the protests are definitely relevant, which is why they are ALREADY included in the media reaction section. I also want to assure you that I am not personally trying to silence anyone; I am fiscally Conservative, support this group's right to protest but not to block traffic and close down bridges, and am not a supporter of the group's message. I have to agree that a criticism section is unwarranted, though those who remove it should merge the content into the article rather than wholesale deleting it. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 22:10, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

POV notwithstanding and to depersonalize it for a moment from Roseanne, I'm not sure that the fact that Celebrity A showed up and said Outrageous Thing B is necessarily notable or adds anything important to the reader's understanding of the OWS protests, regardless of who Celebrity A is or what they said. If we start quoting every celeb that shows up and opens their mouth that would quickly become unwieldy and (IMHO) would not add value to the article. I think an exception might be someone like Michael Moore (and I don't necessarily even like him) who is more of an activist and social commentator and has something substantive to contribute to the dialogue (whether one agrees with his positions or not.) - Elmarco 01:19, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree. We should only include quotes from people who have more of a connection to the event like Mayor Bloomberg or if they are being widely reported as having made statements related to the event by reliable sources, like Moore. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 01:36, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Occupy Together Cities

The list of cities is going to need constant updating as the movement spreads. As of 10/3 there are also demonstrations in Seattle , Philadelphia, and Minneapolis (and possibly other cities in MN?). Also, please change 'Washington' to 'Washington, D.C.' A lot of people (the West coast, mainly) will read 'Washington' as 'Washington state', so please post the full name of the city to avoid confusion. 140.160.178.105 (talk) 00:40, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

If I can throw a question into the mix, what would be the pros and cons of starting a separate article for Occupy Together, so as not to burden the OWS article with a lot of non-NYC protests? Its my understanding this has spread to more than 100 cities in 34+ states, and it doesn't seem practical or logical to me to try and include all of these new protests in an article that basically pertains to the NYC demonstrations. I'm not necessarily saying it needs to be called Occupy Together, except that's the umbrella identity the non-NYC groups seem to be aligning themselves with, which means it's the name readers will likely search for when they come to Wikipedia. (Related thought: if the name "Occupy Together" does not currently redirect to this article, it probably should, until we have some consensus about whether to start a second article.) - Elmarco 01:39, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Source for File:Wall-Street-1.jpg

If somebody could find a better source for this poster, it would increase the likelihood of it not being deleted from Wikipedia. Anyway, I am disappointed that as far as I can tell, this protest has not generated a single freely licensed image... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 01:15, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

There are loads of images of the protest that are free on Flickr. Paul Stein or PaulS has a stream of them. I used one on a news article on Open Globe. [2] FloNight♥♥♥♥ 02:19, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The article should clarify why celebrities in the top 1% are protesting against themselves.

The article states:

The movement is leaderless, centered upon the statement: "the one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%."

But at the same time, the article cites support from several celebrities who are in the top 1%.

As a reader of this article, I find this to be confusing. Would someone please fix the article so it makes more sense?

74.98.40.177 (talk) 03:02, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place to manufacture original commentary or research that has not already been published in reliable sources.

Furtheremore, there's nothing contradictory, paradoxical, or confusing about rich celebrities rallying around protests against perceived greed, inequality, and corruption in the financial sector. Hell, Warren Buffett has spoken out in favor of increasing taxes on the extremely wealthy, and I think it's safe to say he's in the top 0.0001% of wealthy people, or thereabouts. Nothing to see here. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 19:32, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from ZerozxCJ, 4 October 2011

Under the section titled "Celebrity support," I was wondering if it would be possible for a registered user to edit this article and add the musician/rapper Immortal Technique to the list at the end of this section? --> (Other celebrities lending their support were Russell Simmons,[33] Anti-Flag,[34] Salman Rushdie, Michael Moore, Margaret Atwood, Noam Chomsky, and Radiohead.[35])

Here is proof of him being there (there are a couple of other videos) --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjAxncEjnQE and here is his Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortal_Technique

Thank you. ZerozxCJ (talk) 03:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The "proof" you put forward is objectively true, but it wouldn't be something we would want to cite, given that if the video is ever deleted, there would be no archive for us to then cite instead. Here is a link to a reference we may use, but I'm not sure if its verifiable. Seems to be a University online press, which would be fine, but may not be preferable. [3] If a better source is not found, we can go with this instead. --Cast (talk) 03:12, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request - NPOV and disappeared information

The first segment of this article has morphed into a concise set of statements that do not do the overall phenomena justice. Earlier, the time line included important multivariate information that lets readers know how complex the issues are and that strata from throughout society are engaged. Gone is the march by airline pilots, gone are other issues; now the focus is arrests. I'd like to bring back the breadth of the movement, the arrests ended in "tickets" and are not nearly as important as the reasons the masses are expressing sociopolitical malaise. Saturday night I had to again, and again, and again replace my postings; this gets tedious. Tuesday Oct. 4th my students and I will be visiting the page and I want students who are interested to be able to engage. Our ambassador is: User:Dcoetzee - Wikipedia Regional Ambassador - California and Hawaii KSRolph (talk) 05:47, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Welcome! Great to see someone coming in from the ambassador program!

After a quick glance through the history (FYI, you can see everything you've ever added there), I can't find the information you're referring to. It sounds interesting and potentially valuable, but I can't say why it was deleted. If you see that someone disagrees with your edits, you can make a comment here to talk it out with the opposing editor and find a solution. I'm sure Dcoetzee has mentioned the 3-revert rule but please make sure you're not getting into edit wars.

Since you mention changes to the timeline, I just want to make sure you've seen Timeline of Occupy Wall Street. Has your information gone there? If not, perhaps that's one place to re-add it.

My apologies if none of this is new information. I just want to make sure your introduction to editing is less confusing than it normally is :).

--Qwerty0 (talk) 06:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

JP Morgan donation to NYPD section

Hello, I've added a new section, Revelation of JPMorgan Chase donation to NYPD to the chronology. It seems this is a significant event in the timeline, as I've been hearing about it frequently since it was revealed (and increasingly so). Note, I'm not saying the donation event itself is actually significant. But I think it's become a significant minor element of the discourse and coverage of the protest.

I'm open to suggestions if people don't think it's significant enough to warrant its own subsection. Please suggest another place for it if you don't agree with its current placement, because I couldn't figure out any other place it would fit. I definitely think it's part of the chronology and it's not part of any of the other chronology sections.

--Qwerty0 (talk) 05:41, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Despite what some web articles suggested, this donation is actually 6 months old. To keep it clear. Yug (talk) 06:51, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

This is just an unsubstantiated and frankly wacky complaint from a couple of bloggers with no credentials. Inappropriate for WP. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 13:47, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Whoa, whoa there guys. I tried to make clear I'm just acknowledging this popping up in the discourse. I know they're quite mistaken about it in several ways. Maybe you don't think it's quite significant enough to warrant it's own section? Cool. I was expecting to maybe see it moved to a sentence elsewhere, not a wholesale insta-delete. But sure, maybe I jumped the gun adding it. Let's keep it out until we see if the news on it builds or dies down.

Uh, and I kinda have to point out, it was more than "a couple of bloggers." And one was Matthew Yglesias. No credentials?

--Qwerty0 (talk) 04:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Bologna and the 2004 incident

My problems for inclusion of this, which I believe is giving it vastly too much weight are:

• Calling it multiple events when it was not ("...and previously faced civil rights complaints"). The Guardian article used as a source refers to one lawsuit that has been filed but not yet adjudicated. No reliable sources have been presented yet that show more. It's one complaint. That as yet, has not been judged to have any merit.
• Implying that is was related to the 2004 Republican Convention ("...for his role during the 2004 Republican Convention"), as to link it to his behavior during another mass demonstration, OWS. The Guardian article clearly states "His arrest was not directly related to the protest against the Republican convention..."
• Tacking on a second cite as if to add gravitas to the charges, when the second cite is just a copy of the original Guardian report. The Guardian article is the only MSM article I have read so far that references this incident. The second cite is fakery.
• The lawsuit is not about an excessive force incident that might relate to the pepper-spraying event. The plaintiff, a certain "Post A Posr" "approached the driver of a Volkswagen festooned with anti-abortion slogans...Police contend that Posr hit the man with a rolled-up newspaper. He said he was just talking to the guy. Bologna ordered another officer, Camejo, to arrest Posr." Well, duh.
• As much as he is hated right now, after a 29-year career in the NYPD, starting as a patrolman and serving in DWI-enforcement, Narcotics, Organized Crime, Internal Affairs and other postings the best that has been able to be dug up on him is this? If anything that makes him squeaky-clean. Why don't you write it as "the only known charges during his 29-year career was a single lawsuit from an incident in 2004"?. It should not be included in this sub-section, or anywhere in this article. It's just character assassination and piling on. LoveUxoxo (talk) 06:09, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Mmmmkay, I found this one sentence from the NYT's coverage the past 30 days:[4] "Like a number of other officers, Inspector Bologna is a defendant in lawsuits claiming wrongful arrests at protests staged during the Republican National Convention in 2004." Even though it's just a snippet it does describe the accusations in plain English ("false arrest"). "Civil rights violations" is purposefully vague term, used, by lawyers, to obsfuscate. We should instead use the most descriptive term (like the NYT) so the reader know what the accusations actually are. Also the NYT quote (the one sentence they deemed the matter was worth in all their coverage, I read every single Bologna article) puts it in context of him and all the other officers slapped with a lawsuit following the fallout from 2004, rather than attempting to specifically single him out as an abuser.

We know that Bologna is one of two officers being sued, by name, by Post A Posr, for false arrest. He is likely named as a John Doe defendant, like many other officers, in lawsuits from the 2004 protests because he was in the command of a precinct where some other cop was accused of false arrest (though I'm still waiting on confirmation of that, rather than just taking Anonymous' word for it). The current statement in the article (it's actually a quote from the headline of the article rather than the content) exists to show a pattern of misconduct by Bologna, by using allegations only. It's just so wrong. LoveUxoxo (talk) 11:47, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I edited this section to accurately reflect the detail reported in the Guardian. It currently reads:

The police officer who used the pepper spray was identified[4] as Anthony V. Bologna a Deputy Inspector of the New York Police Department,[5][6][7][8][9][10] who was appointed C.O. of New York's First Precinct in 2005.[11] Officer Bologna was previously named in a lawsuit alleging false arrest and civil rights violations after Bologna ordered another officer to arrest a protestor at the 2004 Republican national convention who had allegedly harassed a man and struck him with a rolled-up newspaper.

Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 14:18, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

NYT resource

Anti-Wall Street Protests Spreading to Cities Large and Small by Erik Eckholm and Timothy Williams, published October 3, 2011 in The New York Times; excerpt ...

This week, new rallies and in some cases urban encampments are planned for cities as disparate as Memphis, Tennessee; Hilo, Hawaii; Minneapolis; Baltimore; and McAllen, Tex., according to Occupy Together, an unofficial hub for the protests that lists dozens of coming demonstrations, including some in Europe and Japan.

99.190.85.146 (talk) 06:55, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Image of pepper-spray incident

There's an image of it here. It's already added to the Kettling article. Perhaps it can be added to this article's section as well? - Niri M / ನಿರಿ 09:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

That image is a copyright violation. I have tagged it for speedy deletion, so there's no point putting it in any more articles. Inks.LWC (talk) 11:59, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

OWS, Tea Party, capitalism relationship

From my understanding :

• OWS demands to strongly regulate, taxe, sue the financial sector (Wall street) to restore economic justice, so hard work = good income again ;
• the Tea Party request taxes reductions and reduction of the government for a fairer economy, so hard work = good not taxed income.

Upon what some news reports suggest that OWS and the Tea Party principles are compatible, while others say they are opposed. OWS supporter Mickael Moore said the movement is pro-capitalism, but against the Casino capitalism of Wall street (source). Other OWS supporter Van Jones said it is not against the Tea Party, he want to do like the tea party, to restore the american, pro-midde class way of capitalism (source). While the association of the two political views is not perfect, and not openly claimed or visible, we should also be careful with sources about a claimed 'opposition' between TP and OWS. From the direct sources I read, OWS political position and the TP actually have a lot in common. Wanted: a calm and serious source about the two movements will and compatibiity/opposition. Yug (talk) 11:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

If you believe that there is little difference in Tea Party and Progressive/Liberal viewpoints, you are pretty much alone in your belief. Van Johnson said he wanted to "rival" the Tea Party's influence, not copy it. Gandydancer (talk) 11:47, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

My opinion is there is actually few differences. But OWS is still a large group of various people and political views, so journalists wording I read *sound like* OWS is progressive or anti-capitalist idealists so they are oppose to conservatives views, without explaining seriously why, and in which points they oppose. My point is : Wikipedia should not reports such simplistic claims I myself neutralized several times. In a nutshell: when journalist do a poor work over a fictional opposition, no need citation here. Yug (talk) 12:02, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Do I understand you correctly in that you add ((source?)) because the source did not, in your opinion, explain the situation well enough? If you are doing that, you would not be correct. If you don't understand the difference you need to look it up rather than expect the media to explain the difference in a liberal and a Tea Party-er. For one thing almost all Tea Party-ers are Republicans, and I doubt you would find very many of them at a OWS protest. Gandydancer (talk) 12:55, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

(oups, misunderstood your previous post !)

I'm digging in. I didn't found clear opposition of the Tea party against the core request to reduce wall street power upon politics. Yug (talk) 13:24, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the Tea Party is opposed to the "core request to reduce Wall Street power"; but I think most self-identified Tea Partiers would profoundly disagree with the means proposed to achieve that goal. Simplistically put, Tea Party = conservative American populism; OWS = liberal American populism. They agree on the 'populist' part, but not much else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.117.193.162 (talk) 17:37, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming my suspicions. Soon you will see OBAMA 2012 shirts galore at the protests. S51438 (talk) 03:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Media reaction balance

Why is The New American, Ron Arnold, and the Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise leading the media reaction section? We need notable, mainstream sources leading this section, not fringe groups. Viriditas (talk) 12:17, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the over the top accusation published by a fringe group calling protesters "terrorists". Please don't add it back. Viriditas (talk) 12:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I've also removed The Blaze "alternative" source. Please use mainstream sources in controversial articles. Viriditas (talk) 12:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I noticed... Good job! Another editor suggested removing anything without a source and for an article such as this which is so hard to keep up with, I tend to agree. BTW, who removed the "See also" section and why? Gandydancer (talk) 12:42, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Opps! I did not notice that you removed most of the Media section - I opened a discussion on that... Gandydancer (talk) 13:55, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I have further cut back the section to relevant, notable commentary covered by Eric Randall's third-party source, which is the best way to do this. All I see are two links to the see also section, so I don't know who cut it back, but keep in mind, it is best to keep the see also section reserved for links that can be merged into the article. Viriditas (talk) 13:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

While that may be best I hardly see how it's possible to include the many other world-wide but similar demonstrations that have been held this past year. I strongly feel that they should be returned. Gandydancer (talk) 13:18, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Add it from the secondary source coverage. Editors should not be picking and choosing what is important but depending on sources to do that, and that's exactly what Eric Randall did. I've also changed the focus of the section from "media reaction" to "media coverage" which is what Randall is talking about. "Media reception" sections are often POV-driven, Wikipedia editor repositories for quote farms that have little to no encyclopedic value and are no different than badly composed "in popular culture" sections that serve to illustrate trivia. The fact of the matter is, the media reports and covers important stories for a reason. How it is "received" by the media is a misnomer. I removed quotes that accused the protesters of being "terrorists" and "spoiled brats"—that's hardly encyclopedic. In its place, I restored sources highlighted by secondary sources like Randall, not by Wikipedia editors, and showed the continuity between Olbermann's initial claim of coverage disparity followed by the perceived lack of attendance which might have contributed to it, closing with the reaction of two journalists who explained why it didn't receive coverage it deserved. That kind of connected, encyclopedic narrative is far superior to the previous version, which amounted to a random hodgepodge of trivial, unencyclopedic quotes that had no connection to anything other than the editor who added it. Viriditas (talk) 13:33, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Propose to include diverse personal opinions/responses of individual Manhattan/Brooklyn wage workers and lower income resident.

Some hardhats from the World Trade Center construction site joined the growing protest on their lunch breaks. “If you look at it, this is becoming larger than life. Unions should support the people. Unions were built on the people,” said ironworker Yves Hyppolite, 42, of Long Island. -New York Post

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/ghoulish_on_wall_st_he7Pz8IHFneJgsKWQtbeNO#ixzz1ZoSI4c6F

the New York Times also highlighted these videos of a municipal unionized but hierarchical public workers collective who identify as the "NYPD" who by consensus of the local people are asked to enforce the laws (consensus), preserve peace, reduce fear, and provide for a city-wide safe space.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rwWmM1h-P8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSf7JzpD7kg

yet this does not negate the fact that city workers lured them to the bridge under a false flag, and then issued them over 700 tickets, in a blatant act of extortion. 184.253.249.189 (talk) 13:31, 4 October 2011 (UTC)Moi

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.253.249.189 (talk) 13:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

media reaction section overwhelmingly negative

Can someone fix this? There are countless mainstream articles citing positives of the movement. To be npov, both sides just be included. I would edit myself, but the article is locked — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.244.72.132 (talk) 13:23, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Media section returned

I have restored the deleted Media section. IMO an editor should not make such a drastic cut without discussion. The editor gave the reason that the media is supposed to inform about the news, not make it (or something to that effect). S/he may be correct, but I think we need to discuss it. Gandydancer (talk) 13:50, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I did discuss it, in the above thread titled "Media reception". Is there a reason you have now opened a new thread and you've ignored my reply in the above thread? Your most recent edit shows you've restored a quote farm and you've duplicated a paraphrased quote from the Boston Globe which is appropriately attributed to Joanna Weiss, not the "Boston Globe". If you're going to blindly revert without understanding what you are reverting, I'm not going to waste my time cleaning up after you. Bye. Viriditas (talk) 13:54, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Please, I am sorry. I respect your work and I make my share of mistakes. I did not see the above. I will read it and delete what I restored if someone does not do it first. Gandydancer (talk) 13:58, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm not going to edit here. I just want you to know you restored plagiarism, misattribution, and spelling errors. This is my last comment here. Viriditas (talk) 13:59, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, bye. As per the media section, I think it needs pruning, but unilateral deletion was not called for, and I support the reversion.204.65.34.80 (talk) 14:08, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

As you will, however in reviewing our conversation, I'm now not surprised that I missed your post. I have read your link and I will leave it up to other editors to decide if the deleted section should be returned. Here is the rational that you used to delete it:

Add it from the secondary source coverage. Editors should not be picking and choosing what is important but depending on sources to do that, and that's exactly what Eric Randall did. I've also changed the focus of the section from "media reaction" to "media coverage" which is what Randall is talking about. "Media reception" sections are often POV-driven, Wikipedia editor repositories for quote farms that have little to no encyclopedic value and are no different than badly composed "in popular culture" sections that serve to illustrate trivia. The fact of the matter is, the media reports and covers important stories for a reason. How it is "received" by the media is a misnomer. I removed quotes that accused the protesters of being "terrorists" and "spoiled brats"—that's hardly encyclopedic. In its place, I restored sources highlighted by secondary sources like Randall, not by Wikipedia editors, and showed the continuity between Olbermann's initial claim of coverage disparity followed by the perceived lack of attendance which might have contributed to it, closing with the reaction of two journalists who explained why it didn't receive coverage it deserved. That kind of connected, encyclopedic narrative is far superior to the previous version, which amounted to a random hodgepodge of trivial, unencyclopedic quotes that had no connection to anything other than the editor who added it. Viriditas (talk) 13:33, 4 October 2011 (UTC) Gandydancer (talk) 14:36, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Young Anarchists in Love

So I found an interesting human interest piece on a male protester to developed a crush on a female anarchist, but was separated from her when they were arrested: Wall Street Protester’s Missed Connection: ‘We Got Arrested On the Brooklyn Bridge’. He turned to Craigslist to seek her out, but hasn't received a response as of this post. Utterly adorable. So what's the point? Well, the author for Gawker writes that Liberty Park has become a great mingling place for singles. I just want to put forward that if anyone else has read stories on the social lives of the protesters, we might be able to put together a short section on the interpersonal aspects of the protest. --Cast (talk) 15:35, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

IMO, this sounds pretty unencyclopedic and would be much more appropriate for an AdBusters blog or other site dedicated to promoting the protests and otherwise presenting them in a positive light. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 18:28, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I don't deny that it seems silly on its face level, but humor aside, I'm referring to any possible analysis of the behavior the protesters are exhibiting towards each other, and how their relationships are affected by their divergent political beliefs and political goals. This is essentially my call to other editors to observe this, since it can be easily overlooked if we're focused on spotlighting high profile events. What may seem unencyclopedic now may ultimately be highly encyclopedic a year from now. We should try to spot these patterns now, so that we don't find ourselves needing to retroactively add overlooked topics of interest later. --Cast (talk) 18:39, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I think your suggestion is akin to the Babies made as a result of cabin fever from the great snowfall of 2004 article. Interesting and quirky, but not encyclopedic. I would support a side article with a detailed listing of who exactly (names and/or organizations) is at this protest, but I suppose that would violate some sort of WP privacy policy. Also, I wonder if there should be a section detailing all the fun little games they are playing, such as human microphone. Peace, MPS (talk) 19:00, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be any need for us to "spot patterns" such as this. If such patterns are spotted by reliable sources, we can include them. If not, we can't. Factchecker atyourservice (talk) 19:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

• Yeah, I'm pretty sure that isn't what Wikipedia is about, and I'm pretty sure its got to violate some policy of Wikipedia's.AMERICAN 1 ENGINEER (talk) 23:09, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Insert Tumblr site under "External Links"

This website should be added under "External Links": http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/page/2 This is a Tumblr page conducted by the people who occupy Wall Street. Fillthegap (talk) 19:49, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

disagree. Wikipedia is not a place to promote people's blogs or to help people organize movements. What authoritative source is there that says this blog is more notable than the the many other blogs with stories about the protest? I propose a thought experiment: the Zuccotti Park test ... if I go down to Zuccotti Park with my laptop, does my blog get a link on wikipedia? Peace, MPS (talk) 20:24, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

While Wikipedia may be no place to promote blogs, it is a place to report on the promotion of blogs. "Wall Street's 99 Percent Show Family Values", by Sonya Huber does that, and this article can be expanded with the internet activism and outreach people are doing as part of this occupation. A section on internet activity, such as the actions of Anonymous to reveal the name of "Tony Baloney", and this Tumbler blog, can be very useful. The infobox already notes the use of internet activism, but the article itself should be expanded to include this element of the story. --Cast (talk) 01:07, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I have no issue with the reputable secondary sources, but given that this is essentially a leaderless group, and amorphous in its goals and memberships, I think singling out any specific blog is probably too soon. And I agree with the previous poster...this source is not necessary for the understanding of the article, and is too singular to be notable. My personal preference is to avoid Tumblr blogs altogether. 204.65.34.206 (talk) 12:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

resource USA Today

New York's newest tourist attraction? Wall Street protests by Laura Bly, in print October 4, 2011 Newsline frontpage column and 2A. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 20:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Anonymous/Legion involvement

The group "Anonymous" (also Legion), who has supported the messages and actions behind OWS have announced that they will delete the NYSE website on 10 October and have called for a collapse of the capitalist system. Any word on this?

And a side note, I thought I saw The Blaze was cited on the page earlier but might have been removed. Is there any reason the website was removed? From what I've seen they look pretty reliable.

24.254.126.57 (talk) 00:14, 5 October 2011 (UTC)Preceding unsigned comment guy

global perspective resource, NYT frontpage A1/A8

As Scorn for Vote Grows, Protests Surge Around Globe by Nicholas Kulish, published September 27, 2011 in The New York Times, excerpt ...

Their complaints range from corruption to lack of affordable housing and joblessness, common grievances the world over. But from South Asia to the heartland of Europe and now even to Wall Street, these protesters share something else: wariness, even contempt, toward traditional politicians and the democratic political process they preside over.

99.119.128.249 (talk) 00:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Cities holding similar protest

This section could use a bit of an update, many major media outlets have reported similar protest across many other cities. Thank you. Mattisacat (talk) 01:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

What should be the threshold for such inclusions? I could even give you a story from the local Tallahassee Democrat about an Occupy Tallahassee group springing up here. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 01:49, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

You can submit original stories to wikinews:Main Page. There are three drafts about Occupy Wall Street: wikinews:Occupy Wall St Protest Continues, wikinews:Occupy Wall Street Protesters Still Fighting and wikinews:Hundreds of Occupy Wall Street protesters arrested. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 11:40, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

You misunderstand; I meant I could provide reliable sourcing from the local newspaper here in Tallahassee, which happens to be called the Tallahassee Democrat. No original reporting here. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 15:55, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think an exceptional amount of detail is warranted, but several major cities have seen copycat actions of varying degrees. This is notable, but we may want to wait until things settle down to write it up in any detail. Maybe just an addition indicating other cities have seen similar protests stemming from this set of demonstrations, etc. 204.65.34.206 (talk) 12:46, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 5 October 2011

U.S Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT)

WilbergWBWW (talk) 05:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done - Request is not sufficiently clearly stated. Feel free to re-open (answered=no) after further clarifying language is added to the request. Thanks! --Lexein (talk) 10:13, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 5 October 2011

add Template:World protests in 21st century

Asdgdsgdgad (talk) 05:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It's not namely anti government, but anti financial influence upon the government. Yug (talk) 11:03, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree; these protests are not explicitly anti-government. The primary "focus" of this generally unfocused demonstration seems to be more explicitly about finance and the private sector and wealthy than government. 204.65.34.206 (talk) 12:44, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done I concur with the above positions that "anti-government" is not appropriate for this article. It may be so later, if reliable sources support such a claim (templates and categories are claims, too). --Lexein (talk) 10:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Media coverage section : restore, confirm deletion, review, pruning ?

• better source: Rushkoff, Douglas (10/05). "Think Occupy Wall St. is a phase? You don't get it". CNN.com. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

Have been deleted. While both side expressed in the section are biases, I agree, this media coverage debate may nevertheless need ... coverage. So, do we restore or keep deleted ? Yug (talk) 11:10, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Wall Street itself has remained barricaded off from all pedestrians, including tourists

Keith Olbermann accused the mainstream media of failing to give the Occupy Wall Street protests the same amount of coverage as the Tea Party movement. Ginia Bellafante of The New York Times and L. Gordon Crovitz of The Wall Street Journal both noted the low attendance of protesters. Bellafante addressed Olbermann's concerns about media coverage, wondering how the media would give the protesters more attention when peripheral demands include signs that read "Even if the World Were to End Tomorrow I'd Still Plant a Tree Today". Joanna Weiss of The Boston Globe found it difficult to take the protests seriously, criticizing Occupy Wall Street for its "circus" atmosphere. On the other hand, this skepticism have been attacked, stating that when everyone clearly understand the fact that occupying Wall Street denounce its biasing power over US politics, some journalists request "clear demands" to artificially create a feeling of confusion to weaken a movement they don't support. Commentators repeatedly noticed the lack of coverage up on Occupy Wall Street movement compare to similar past events, "corporate media skipping anti-corporate protests". Activists explain this lack of coverage by the very strong influence of the financial actors on medias, thus biasing their coverage and reports to the public. Twitter trends have been temporally censored for the expansion of #OccupyWallStreet in north America, this being linked to JP Morgan Chase having hundreds millions invested in Twitter.

restore. And whoever keeps deleting it either needs to bring the issue here for consensus, or knock it off. It needs pruning, but the media reception is notable in and of itself.204.65.34.206 (talk) 12:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

This issue came up yesterday (see above). It brought up a core question re whether or not media reaction was a legit topic for the article or not. I left the question open after most of the Media section was deleted at that time and only one editor had anything to say about it, including you, Yug. Gandydancer (talk) 14:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

My opinion is that media attention **is** relevant since the protestors themselves claimed that they were getting "silenced" or that the mainstream media were either mocking them or deliberately ignoring them. Here is one such opinion. I have read claims (that may or may not be revisionist history) that the mainstream media heaped praise on the tea party movement when they came out but are now scorning leftists protests. I would support a NPOV examination of this common claim as part of the article. MPS (talk) 15:39, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I tried to get some information regarding another issue, as outlined in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Occupy_Wall_Street#Media_spin.3F . Alas, Yug deemed it "non-sense" and slapped a tag hiding the content based on his (subjective) estimate of importance of this. I received information from two friends about a major Russian site running something similar (the article disappeared after four or so hours), and a Czech friend also recalled seeing misreports (similar to the Polish site described below), but could not recall where.

To summarize - at that time, out of two largest Polish news sites, one was not reporting on the protests, while another manipulated the information to make it appear as having completely different goals. 66.234.47.205 (talk) 17:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion media views should be included. I felt that the media section which included Fox views, etc., was appropriate. It was deleted and there was no support to include it. Since I am not "the boss" of the article I dropped it. Editing articles is not easy, and as often as not the most difficult part is what goes on here on the talk page, or at least it should be. I've edited several hotly contested and fast-moving articles, and this is the worst one yet. To delete (or to a lesser extent open) entire sections, especially if they are of long-standing, in a contested article without opening a discussion is not appropriate IMO. Gandydancer (talk) 17:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I've looked through this whole talk page and there was never any consensus to remove the whole thing. FYI, it seems to have been removed by AMERICAN 1 ENGINEER on Oct 5 on the basis of it being "biased as hell," in the edit summary.

Reading the version he deleted, I can sympathize. It was unbalanced, and even implied Twitter was censoring it as a trending topic because JPMorgan is a Twitter investor. It looks like it'd been watered down from its state a few days ago, when I thought it was quite good and fair. So, solution: we should talk more about the bad press it's been given. Throw in some statements from Fox, maybe bring back that "spoiled brats" comment. Not because we agree with them necessarily, but for better or worse that's been part of the coverage.

IMO the coverage is a major facet of this whole event and one of the most significant and interesting things about it. This is definitely important

--Qwerty0 (talk) 18:11, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually it was deleted before American deleted it. But I agree that it is relevant and part of the entire picture of what is going on. Having worked extensively from start to finish on the Gulf oil spill and the flu pandemic, it is newsworthy and interesting to read the history of the events and how they evolved. Should I be bold and restore the previous section that was deleted, and we can work from there? Gandydancer (talk) 18:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Another two thoughts (entirely separate in my mind)... First, I thought of the idea that we might create a separate article, perhaps Media coverage of Occupy Wall Street that would allow a little more depth on compiling various media reactions over time, to be summarized in the main article. ... Second (again a completely different thought) I am wondering if it is even possible to determine the point at which this protest actually became newsworthy. Was it June 9 when adbusters bought the domain name? Was it August somethingorother when the "leaders" planned a strategy session? Was it September 17, when a bunch of people actually showed up? Clearly now, after getting national attention (perhaps form the police actions, perhaps from political and celebrity endoresements, perhaps from twitter trending) there is plenty of news media attention over it and there is no question of its notability... but at some point, it crossed that line from just another flash mob into legitimate media notability... and in the grand scheme of things, there are a lot of other idealistic protests out there that want the world press to descend on their protest march and bless them with "coverage" ... and they are going to complain unless they get it... but to some degree the media did not "owe" this movement coverage from its inception... there WAS a point when this protest **did not** merit coverage... so in my opinion that understanding ought to flavor our documentation of any "media bias" against the event. In summary (1) should we start a separate media coverage of OWS article, and, (2) what possible authoritative source is there that could definitively say whether this movement deserved coverage all along? Peace, MPS (talk) 18:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

MPS, arguing the current notability of articles is tough enough. I don't think we want to try to decide when it became notable. Also, we aren't the ones to decide when "media bias" happened. Our role is to report others' allegations of media bias, if there are prominent allegations.

And Gandydancer, I think you can go ahead and restore it, especially if you can find some opposing views first (and take out that Twitter JPMorgan thing!). I think we've agreed it was taken out against procedure.

--Qwerty0 (talk) 19:54, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Qwerty0, agreed... we (wikipedia editors) don't need to decide when ... and my point is that since there is no single authoritative source for yea or nay, the best we can do is document the controversy... there will be differences of opinion, and so we document protestor POVs (allegations of non-coverage, allegations of imbalanced coverage compared to teaparty) and document MSM coverage (high profile media opinions and allegations that the protest is or is not notable, that the protesters do or do not deserve attention, that events are or are not adequately covered) and then let these opinions balance each other out. We state all sides as fairly as we can and let the reader be informed by the various arguments put out there. I think that's the best we can do unless God himself (or Jimmy Wales) writes an authoritative history of OWS. MPS (talk) 20:28, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Sounds great! Yeah, I'm in favor of covering the controversy by quoting sources who themselves cover the event.

--Qwerty0 (talk) 20:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Looks like the media section is back and on its way. FYI, here's a past version of the article with some good material from both sides (criticism in the "Criticism" section and support in the, er, "Reactions" section).
--Qwerty0 (talk) 23:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, nevermind that. Looks like even the "Criticism" section in that version was devoted to erecting straw men. Here's a revision that's a bit more nuanced.

--Qwerty0 (talk) 05:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Time to split --Polmas (talk) 08:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

More elected official support

 Done

Bernie Sanders (I-VT) has also voiced his support for OWS and the possibility of him joining the movement when it reaches DC. http://www.nationofchange.org/bernie-sanders-and-keith-olbermann-celebrate-wall-street-protests-1317392475 I think this should probably be noted.--132.198.76.149 (talk) 15:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Delete Article: "Occupy Wall Street Manifesto"

 Done Can somebody delete the article: "Occupy Wall Street Manifesto" It was made a few days ago, but nobody has done any thing with it and I am concerned that the objective of what the user who created it for may in some way violate Wikipedia policy.141.165.41.189 (talk) 16:27, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I nominated it for speedy deletion. Helixdq (talk) 19:30, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Is the 2010 Inside Job (film) related to this event(s)?

Is the 2010 Inside Job (film) related to this event(s)? 99.119.128.87 (talk) 23:33, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I'd say it is, as the documentary takes a hard look at a number of economic and corporate aspects that the protesters are concerned about. A good case can be made for including a mention of the Oscar-winning film in the article. Jusdafax 03:17, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

potential image?

From http://mediagallery.usatoday.com/G373 Editorial Cartoons of USA Today by Nate Beeler, The Washington Examiner, Cagle Cartoons October 5, 2011 (2 of 4) ... Year 1967 "Occupy Dean's Office: Draft Card burning", Year 2011 "Occupy Wall Street" (burning documents) with apparent Golden Baby boomer protesting "Son, please! Hasn't your old man's 401(k) suffered enough?!?"" (a Generation gap reference). 99.119.128.87 (talk) 00:07, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Lots of police brutality occurring tonight

We'll need some users to add stuff about it later when the news picks up on it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpOMlDVaXzc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.244.72.132 (talk) 02:42, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

IF the media picks it up, then it can be included. But calling it "police brutality" at this point is just absurd. Inks.LWC (talk) 02:49, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Here we go, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/05/occupy-wall-street-nypd-police-brutality-video_n_997414.html?ref=mostpopular

http://gothamist.com/2011/10/05/video_nypd_breaks_out_pepper_spray.php

More sites should report it tomorrow, this did just happen a few hours ago — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.244.72.132 (talk) 04:20, 6 October 2011 (UTC) http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/occupy-wall-street-protest-broadens-scope-20111005 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.244.72.132 (talk) 04:23, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is The Post's coverage, which slants it as "Protests turn violent". The clip from the TV newsguy is funny - him and his cameraman get clubbed and maced and he seems so nonchalant about it. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/it_brawl_street_WGonUcuHz7WBlnQZeK7gWK LoveUxoxo (talk) 17:36, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Here is some Daily News coverage which directly references a video of a cop "bragging" about using his nightstick: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/10/06/2011-10-06_occupy_wall_street_protesters_post_video_of_cop_bragging_my_nightsticks_gonna_ge.html LoveUxoxo (talk) 23:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Image request - "Liberty Park" layout

I've seen two images which provide a layout of the area of Zuccotti Park and would like to put forward that these can be used as the basis for an image created by an editor with .SVG skills and donated to WikiCommons. NYC General Assembly has provided this .pdf graphic on their website on September 29, 2011. More recently the blog provided this city planning image on October 4, 2011. A newer layout has been created by the Wall Street Journal How Occupy Wall Street Turned Zuccotti Park Into a Protest Camp. This was published on October 5, 2011.

If anyone is skilled, or knows someone who would be able to put their skills to our needs, providing an updated image based on the Wall Street Journal's reference would greatly benefit this article, as well as the article on Zuccotti Park. --Cast (talk) 03:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:GL/MAP — make a request to the Graphic lab map workshop. Yug (talk) 10:17, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Request for Comments: rewritten Media section

Per the above discussion, the Media section has been restored. But it's a severely neutered one at the moment. So I've rewritten most of it, adding back some information that was lost in the process. But I tried to stick to sources Viriditas advocated, per another discussion above.

Before I include such a large edit to a contentious section, I thought I'd post it here for commentary and work first. (::ahem:: a practice I would advocate, please.) If you have issues with it, look at it as a first draft and tell me what to change.

--Qwerty0 (talk) 07:40, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

There seems to be agreement so I went ahead and restored the old section. IMO it shows the sequence of events well and contains several comments that have become somewhat "famous" in that they have been repeated so often in other articles. I didn't try to include what is below into the old section yet... Gandydancer (talk) 08:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

There is a spelling error in the heading "media responce" --60.242.29.171 (talk) 09:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, "responce" is spelled RESPONSE. Also, the section should only contain the most pertinent responses. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 09:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

An editor has already removed large sections (without even an edit summary) and I put them back. It is not appropriate to make drastic changes in a section that is being discussed. Please give other editors a chance to review before removing this info. Thanks. Gandydancer (talk) 09:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Your decision on what may be pertinent may differ from other editor's opinion. This section is under discussion at this time, please do not be disruptive. Gandydancer (talk) 09:59, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Before adding further information to the section, post it here and see if others think it is pertinent. Somedifferentstuff (talk) 10:06, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, coming from an editor that has not only never taken part in any discussion on this talk page but has never even made an edit summary for his frequent edits, that's an interesting comment. Gandydancer (talk) 10:22, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I have again restored the previous section which has been under discussion. Wikipedia is a group effort and people that are too lazy or too bossy to take part in discussion should not get the idea that their editing rules. The section may need trimming but it is up to the editors who have been discussing it to decide what should go. Please give them a chance to decide rather than decide that you know best. Gandydancer (talk) 10:43, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The media section restart to be a collection of unfounded POV by angry journalists. There is tons of such criticism online, it's useless to collect so many samples, collect unfounded attacks word by word is to repport garbage. Need pruning, and more neutrality. Yug (talk) 10:44, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how we can be neutral without reporting on what O'Reilly and Hannity have to say about the protest. Since they have their own TV show, clearly millions of people agree with their viewpoint. Gandydancer (talk) 12:14, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Media coverage

---

Initially many accused the U.S. media of neglecting to give the movement the coverage it deserved. Five days into the protest political commentator and writer Keith Olbermann criticized mainstream media for failing to cover Occupy Wall Street, saying, "Why isn't any major news outlet covering this? ... If that's a Tea Party protest in front of Wall Street ... it's the lead story on every network newscast." However, weeks later, a blogger at The New York Times reported that media coverage eventually increased after the arrests on September 24 and October 1, with the story appearing on all network morning news broadcasts on October 3.

Many commentators were repelled by the appearance of the protests. Joanna Weiss wrote in the Boston Globe her feeling that the movement is hard to take seriously due to the "circus" and "Burning Man" atmosphere. Still more criticized the protesters' lack of a coherent message. A columnist at The New York Times, after also criticizing the "carnival" atmosphere, called their cause "virtually impossible to decipher". But Derek Thompson of The Atlantic argued that the protesters' goals would inherently be diverse because of the breadth of problems facing the middle class.

---

Garbage journalism

What should we do with "garbage journalism", false associations without evidences, naive simplifications and generalisations, and general attacks of journalists against the movement or some political actors, such :

In a segment on The Sean Hannity Show, Sean Hannity alleged that, "All the talk the protesters were giving about class warfare came directly from President Obama."<ref name="mediaite" />

I agree that these statements may be sourced (<ref name="mediaite" />), but the journalist statement is a pure stupidity, POV, based on nothing. So despite the source, I removed the statement above, and encourage similar clean up ! Yug (talk) 10:21, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

As editors it is not up to us to decide what is stupid and what is not. I don't agree with a lot of stuff in Wikipedia, but that does not mean I should remove it. Many people agree with everything reported on Fox News. A large number of the Tea Party-ers still believe that Obama is a Muslim born in Africa. Strange but true... Gandydancer (talk) 11:17, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Of course, we may report that they do. We don't have to report that this is true, or reasonable. Just something to remember. --Cast (talk) 11:35, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Yug shows a tendency to downplay elements that very well might be very important. Just because somebody is spewing non-sense (heh), does not make this a non-issue, especially if it occurs in a major media outlet. In fact, since it can have an effect on shaping the perception of a large audience, it is notable and I believe should be included in the article. 66.234.47.205 (talk) 14:04, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I confirm, my position is that wikipedia should not copy primitive attacks made by low level journalists. Or we should make it clear that it's a easy and unsourced/unfounded attack. Yug (talk) 14:12, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I would think that an article in the most frequented (based on Alexa rating) news site for a particular foreign language goes beyond "low level journalism." Since it is the news site for a large part of the population, which also may not be able to verify this information in English, it is not exactly the same as posting a blog entry. Incidentally, the other major Polish news site did not report anything about the issue at the time at all, meaning this was the only high-profile article. I fail to understand how this can be considered unworthy of attention or "low level." 66.234.47.205 (talk) 00:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

As a general approach, this MEDIA section should not cite ponctual attacks (which belong to the Criticism/Opposition sections), but should cite articles with journalists talking about the media coverage.

Articles directly commenting OWS media coverage

• "Will Bunch, author of 'The Backlash,' on mainstream media's failure to cover Wall Street protests". current.com. September 21, 2011. Retrieved September 22, 2011.
• Tripp, Ben (10/03). "What Are Your Demands?". Huffingtonpost.com. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)
• Rushkoff, Douglas (10/05). "Think Occupy Wall St. is a phase? You don't get it". CNN.com. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)
• McGlynn, Katla (Oct. 6). "Jon Stewart: How Is Occupy Wall Street Not Like The Tea Party?". TheHuffingtonPost.com. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

Yug (talk) 14:21, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Anyway, the section is balanced now. Yug (talk) 15:19, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I edited your edit. If we can use FAIR as a source, perhaps we can add that her remarks have been criticized. Gandydancer (talk) 17:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Gandy : ) I indeed used Fair, I eventually though that an organization which is publicly know and there since 1986 is as reliable as online news website. So let's use it. Yug (talk) 18:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

About Burnett, I eventually saw the video : she seems to be more joking around that attacking OWS. Yug (talk) 19:24, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Yug, here is your edit:

After interviewing several protesters CNN reporter Erin Burnett criticized them saying, "They did know what they don't want...it seems like people want a messiah leader, just like they did when they anointed Barack Obama", her report being later itself criticized as biased, condescending, and reductionist.[END OF MY EDIT AND YOURS STARTS HERE]

Erin Burnett has thus been denounced for her biased report, short view, and conflicting personal interest with the financial sector since she was a Goldman Sachs and Citigroup employee, and is engaged to a Citigroup executive.

Huffington Post journalist answered the frequently seen request of a "clear message" from the crow occupying Wall Street as a false interrogation purposely aimed to suggest confusion in the opponent side.

.

CNN journalist Douglas Rushkoff on his side denounced the condescending, reductionist, and superficial view of previous mainstream media reports, and views OWS as the first American political movement fundamentally from the internet, bottom to top, as the Facebook revolutions proceeded. Thus, he claims the movement is gathering numerous complaints, which are believed to be several symptoms of a same governance dysfunction, the collusion between the financial sector and the legislative and executive branches of the country. Over the lack of clear demands, he added:

[Anyone and any media] who says he has no idea what these folks are protesting is not being truthful. Whether we agree with them or not, we all know what they are upset about, and we all know that there are investment bankers working on Wall Street getting richer while things for most of the rest of us are getting tougher.

On October 5, TV host Jon Stewart made a humoristic overview of the recent media coverage, enlightening the simplistic and partisan view broadcast in previous days.

You are a very nice person and I don't want to hurt your feelings, but your English is not very good. Would you mind deleting it and letting us help you with it before you put it back? The people that read Wikipedia do not know that your native language is French - it just looks like you are poorly educated to them, which reflects poorly on the article and the editors. I would go ahead and do it but it will take some time and I'm not even sure what you are trying to get across in some instances. Gandydancer (talk) 19:36, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

After having time to read the source I found that this statement: "conflicting personal interest with the financial sector since she was a Goldman Sachs and Citigroup employee, and is engaged to a Citigroup executive" was not even sourced in the ref provided. I have removed all of the above edit and please do not return it until it has been discussed. Gandydancer (talk) 21:04, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Agree for my section's English to copyedit (not to delete), native speaker's help welcome.

For the statement, let me check the sources! Was in one of the sources. Yug (talk) 21:21, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Found:

"Burnett used to work for the same financial companies that profited from the bailouts--Goldman Sachs, Citigroup--and she is engaged to be married to a Citigroup executive. Burnett's journalistic career includes plenty of attempts to promote Wall Street interests". Source: >Fairness.org (Oct. 4). "CNN's Factcheck Failure on Occupy Wall Street". {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help). In an article which is all about Burnett biases over OWS, it's basically talking about a conflict of interest. However, in the video that I later saw, Burnett seems more to make some cool and populist acide jokes over OWS protesters than really transform the reality. In anyway, my wording is excessive = remove. Thanks for your checking. Yug (talk) 21:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Yug, when you say anything about living people on Wikipedia your references must be extremely good. And BTW, no she is not fooling around - she is dead serious. Thanks for being so understanding about why I removed your edit. Gandydancer (talk) 00:07, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm asking copy edit of my 7lines in a new section. Yug (talk) 05:00, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 6 October 2011

Add Austin and Dallas to the list of cities also protesting

65.36.77.138 (talk) 16:46, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Abhishek  ^Talk 17:07, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Austin done, below. Please re-open when Dallas is sourced! --Lexein (talk) 00:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Proletarian Revolution?

Is America undergoing a Proletarian Revolution? The Occupy Wall Street protests certainly fulfill all the hallmarks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valheol (talk • contribs) 16:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

• lol no, just a bunch of communist throwing a little fit because nobody cares about them.AMERICAN 1 ENGINEER (talk) 17:43, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

hahaha, no proletarian revolution, nor communist revolution. I'm capitalist and support their core view : enough with the financial sector collusion with the legislative and executive and the casino capitalism, go back with the real economy, and the american entrepreneurship which made the strengh of America. The first on place have been the leftists, but capitalists are clearly part of it too. Yug (talk) 18:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Even assuming there was a revolution the middle class are not part of the proletariat by definition so no. Helixdq (talk) 20:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

• I think American Engineer's openly-stated POV should be taken into account in regards to any further article edits or tags he places on the article. Jusdafax 03:06, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it is. http://nycga.cc/2011/09/30/declaration-of-the-occupation-of-new-york-city/ Look through the General Assembly website. 152.131.9.132 (talk) 20:49, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

You would need sources that say the NYCGA speaks for that mob. The article currently says they're "leaderless."

It's kind of funny, though, because it would throw out the absurd "democraphics" claim that characterizes the protest as having "brought together people of many political positions". That part of the article definitely needs a revision.

-- Randy2063 (talk) 21:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request: Violance on 5 October

The protest turned violent when 20-30 protestors rushed a police barricade:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/06/dozens-arrested-in-wall-street-protests-as-rallies-spread-across-hudson/?intcmp=trending http://www.kgoam810.com/rssItem.asp?feedid=118&itemid=29735473

Can someone please add that in to the timeline? 152.131.9.132 (talk) 17:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Wrote about the second pepper-spraying incident that took place on October 5 to Occupy Wall Street#October 5, which is under the the Pepper-Spraying section. Sourced the facts from a NY Daily News article. Anyone else welcome to expand other parts of the article using the sources provided above. Thanks. --Fayerman (talk) 20:22, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

there should not be a generalized pepper spraying section in the "chronology" unless it the events happened during the same week... the events in the chronology should be in order of time... which is like the definition of chronology. Peace, MPS (talk) 20:57, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Please note the Timeline of Occupy Wall Street article that contains chronology. --Fayerman (talk) 21:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

That needs to be fixed...it is not a pepper spraying incident. Some of the protesters were attacked police. This article needs to be fixed so NPOV is used. It makes police look heavy handed and the protesters like followers of Ghandi and that is not the case. 173.174.212.164 (talk) 12:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Resource from Portal:Current events/2011 October 5

US labor unions set to join Wall Street protests by Ellen Wulfhorst in New York for Reuters October 5, 2011 4:05pm EDT; including Amalgamated Transit Union. 97.87.29.188 (talk) 20:17, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Occupy L.A.

Don't know if this should be included here. [5]. Lots of peeps in downtown right now at 7th and Figueroa. They want the banks to stop foreclosures and federal govt to extend unemployment benefits. Malke 2010 (talk) 21:14, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Wow, people are really getting uppity - what do they want, a bailout? (wink, wink) So what if the banks had to hire people to forge thousands of signatures for days on end on bogus documents... Gandydancer (talk) 21:24, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

They are saying that the banks got bailouts but the peeps still got foreclosed on. And IMHO all the lenders who bundled the subprime mortgages and all the hedge fund managers who bet that those bundled mortgages would fail, and raked in billions when they did, should be in hiding right now (or orange jumpsuits.) Malke 2010 (talk) 23:17, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Added the latimes ref [6] to the para. Feel free to propose extra text, and find free photos from the event. --Lexein (talk) 03:21, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 6 October 2011

In the third paragraph of the Occupy Wall Street basic description, there is a sentence listing many cities that have also started "occupying." Austin, TX has also started occupying in front of City Hall starting October 6, 2011. Please add Austin to the the list. http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/local/occupy-austin-takes-over-city-hall

72.179.50.207 (talk) 21:39, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

 Done - Thanks for providing the source. --Lexein (talk) 00:03, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Organization section

I just now added a section under "Participants" that deals with the organization of the movement. While it is clearly "leaderless" in many aspects, I have also read many articles about how there are various stations (medical, media, food) and other self-organized processes. Just wanted to add a discussion section in case anyone wants to discuss what should be added. I think it is notable because just saying "it is whatever and stuff" is not really true to how OWS functions. Clearly there are leader-like spokespeople and division of labor occurring. I have cited reputable sources that I was able to find so far... Peace, MPS (talk) 21:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 6 October 2011

Sacramento, CA's protests began October 6th as well. Please list in the 6th city names.

99.91.185.43 (talk) 22:32, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Please provide reliable source(s) first. Set answered=no when ready. --Lexein (talk) 03:06, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Reliable source for Sacramento based protests: http://www.sacbee.com/2011/10/07/3966909/occupy-sacramento-plans-park-curfew.html

Bare-breast photo (again)

I don't know if the prior image was in the context of a news report or broadcast, or showed the signage, or showed more than one woman. I added commentary by Bill Maher, and a two-shot, as broadcast, which shows two women with the full text of their protest signs fully legible, specifically as an example of non-mainstream coverage. Earlier in the same broadcast, the protests were lauded by several guests as correct and brave, including Salmon Rushdie - perhaps that should be added.
Comments above indicated "not culturally comprehensible" around the world, and "possibly offensive". We're not responsible for the whole world, just the English-reading world. Articles in other Wikipedias can censor them there all they want. More on my point, anyone who has read history knows of women baring themselves in public in direct challenge to orthodoxy, in grief, and in appeal to mercy. This contemporaneous example, in the larger context of Western civilization, is no different. But it turns out not to matter here. Our job and quest is to neutrally report what sources say. If a RS has commented on the female protestors, and the use of their images in the media, by all means, let's report that, (addendum: and RS-sourced opposition) too. --Lexein (talk) 23:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Interesting post and thanks. I am the person that first brought up the question of the inclusion of the photo and I was really happy to find agreement on the talk page. My argument was, and is, that our articles can only take a small slice of history to record, and as such our slice must represent the event rather than an unusual event within the event. For example, in the lead-up to the Iraq war many women did bare their breasts in opposition - do you remember the peace sign of naked women? So for a war opposition article I would have welcomed a bared-breast inclusion. But this protest does not seem to be similar to the war protests...in fact it does not seem to be similar to any protest in history - note that even liberal Mother Jones was critical of the (non)agenda!

If you go back and look at the last big protests in the US, the Iraq War protests, you will find that most of the protesters were middle age and older. This protest is quite different - how many "grey-hairs" do you see out there? The traditional "bared breasts" sign of protest is meaningless to them. Of course, if it suddenly becomes meaningful and many women do bare their breasts as a sign of protest, then a photo would be appropriate. I am old enough to have been around the block a few times, but unlike Mother Jones I don't have a clue as to where and how far this protest will go... Gandydancer (talk) 23:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Wartime vs. peacetime protest: the protestors and commentators have mentioned class war, and the perceived war on the middle class has been in the news for months (years?); I mean, passions run high in any protest, as does rhetoric. It's arguable that military warfare and economic "war" (perhaps focused here on wealth-stripping) have overlapping devastating effects, and that the differences are unimportant to the protesters - only the end results of the war/"war" matter. Can we as Wikipedia editors dismiss either the old-school bared protests, or these, as unimportant? No, because we can conduct no original research. We can make no presumption of "meaningless"-ness: we don't know the education, politics, or intentions of the women (yet). We don't need to: we know that the fact of their act was widely reported in RS, and propagated (whether by design or not) news of the protests.

Getting back to policy and guideline, since we're here on Talk to improve the article, given the number of other images in the article, the breadth of other coverage, and the in-text an in-image context of this image, I now don't think WP:UNDUE is triggered. Per this, I have corrected in italics a possibly misunderstood point, above. --Lexein (talk) 00:47, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

• I'm the one that mentioned WP:UNDUE in the discussion above, and I think it applies. If one or two protesting women take their tops off in front of a photographer, that sure seems like undue emphasis to me. If you have 50 or 100 women in a photo, now you have a case. Jusdafax 03:11, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

• That seems to ignore the in-photo context: it's a two-shot with the commentator, in the context of commenting on it: by comparison, the size of the women in the overall photo is small. In terms of visual weight, it's as follows: the photo, the frame, the commentator, the women's signs, and the women, in that order. WP:UNDUE doesn't really hold up here, especially since few, if any other signage is even shown in the article as it stands. WP:UNDUE would be to censor content which has RS. I don't see the merit in the argument that the numbers are too low, or that 50 or more would be better: that just keeps the door open for prudish censorship. The foundation of our reporting is simply RS. Nothing more or less.

And as for the non-discussing (yet image deleting) editor's invocation of WP:Principle of least surprise (an essay purporting to be supporting some unspecified part of MOS, which has nothing to say about content): applying style guides to basic reliably sourced content discussions is inappropriate. As for that editor's edit summary that the picture is not needed to understand the commentary: seeing the poster text is indeed necessary for understanding the comment as intended by the speaker. --Lexein (talk) 03:40, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Jusdafax. It's not just undue weight on the tiny handful of nude/semi-nude protesters, but undue weight on Maher's commentary. He's just one comedian among several with TV shows who commented, and for no reason I can tell his comment is included as a direct quote. Also, no one really expects to see breasts in an article about a political protest. Including a fair use photo (esp. when there are hundreds of free ones available) of tits violates the principle of least astonishment, distorts the perspectives about the protest, and I think violates NPOV by implying that the protestors are the kind of fringe political element that runs around in public nude. To conclude: wrong for a whole host of reasons. Steven Walling • talk 03:51, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Steven. I find you have expressed what I intended much better than I did myself. I was unfamiliar with the Wikipedia essay you mention, and agree that the thinking at WP:ASTONISH applies directly. And yes, Maher's short commentary and photo use also fit my view of WP:UNDUE. Jusdafax 06:33, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

• We generally don't lambast with words like "violates". That's POV, and false: there's no "violation" when there are no firm rules, which is one of the five pillars of Wikipedia. I politely request discussion which is more polite.
• I'll refer readers to the relative size (and area) importance of items in the image, above.
• Direct quoting of a source is unremarkable, unimpeachably normal, and best when exact meaning is important, in context. That other editors have not elected to include other direct quotes of other commentary is no burden on the Maher entry. That a diversity of commentary has so far not been represented in the article is no mandate for continuation for such exclusion. It is the exclusion of a diversity of commentary which is non-neutral, not the inclusion of one item of commentary.
• The assertion of violates the principle of least astonishment is empty: there is no such "violation"(no firm rules) nor such a "Wikipedia principle". WP:ASTONISH is neither policy nor guideline, cannot trump policy or guideline, and cannot be a brickbat for the exclusion an eraser of RS content.
• RS, V, and NPOV take precedence, WP is not censored. If an individual has an issue with a microscopically scaled image which, if zoomed up, shows tits, that is not Wikipedia's problem. IMHO. "Nobody expects" is not an excuse a good reason to reject RS.
• WP:UNDUE is not a brickbat to be used to pound out of existence an eraser of reliably sourced content. It may be an editor's opinion that wide media coverage of something, by itself, seems undue emphasis, but that does not necessarily meet WP:UNDUE, unless it affects the article as a whole, and it just does not seem that the Maher entry could imbalance the article as a whole. We report what RS say, and even show. There can be no apology, or attack for that. If there are RS which report that nudity was a vanishingly small element of the protest, then we'll include that too. That's how reaching NPOV is done. Not by censorship or whitewashing.
• We don't emphasize opinion over pillar/policy/guideline. WP:UNDUE applies to article bias among a collection of opinions. Disliking or disagreeing with Maher is not a reason to further delay the introduction of other commentary.
• No undue emphasis on Maher in particular should be inferred or accused. It was included as an example non-mainstream, widely broadcast commentary, outside major corporate news channels. It is merely a datapoint in a highly variate constellation of commentary, as yet underrepresented in the article.
• Editors may wish to use a variety of means to exclude content directly related to the article's topic, but this runs the risk of being unconstructive or disruptive. Going forward, I sincerely suggest adding content, rather than spending time deprecating other content. --Lexein (talk) 07:54, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, use your WP:BRAIN people... your editorial opinion matters... personally, I don't think titties belong on this article. If a wwoman bears her breasts on David Letterman, we are not obligated to put a screen capture of it on the Late Show article. Peace, MPS (talk) 14:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 6 October 2011

change "Washington $0.25" to "Washington raises $0.25" Nick.yarosz (talk) 23:14, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

 Done --Lexein (talk) 00:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Major?

It is possible to say that the current (2011 -) Occupy Wall Street civil movement marks the beginnings of a major global proletarian revolution. If so, we may be witnessing the largest proletarian revolution in the history of humankind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_revolution#Communist_revolutions_throughout_history — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ponderexistence (talk • contribs) 01:54, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

It is only possible to say if and only if reliable sources write about this a) as a movement and b) as marking the beginning of something. We can't say it unless RS do. Just for a general contextual reality check, please read WP:FLAT and WP:V. --Lexein (talk) 03:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Occupy Portland

Just so you know. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Occupy Fresno

It should be noted in the first paragraph that there is another protest in Fresno, CA. There is a list in the first paragraph that i cannot edit. Fresno should be on the list. Its called Occupy Fresno. It has a facebook page and is organized by Peace Fresno. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.14.85.95 (talk) 04:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Occupy XXX

I worked on the Portland one. It's looking pretty good. There are probably a number of other ones. Should we create a category or something? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:37, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 7 October 2011

there is an improperly formatted link to a right-wing, out-of-context YouTube video stuck next to Obama's name. Please remove this link. The video is completely misleading and irrelevant to the article. thx

ps looks like it is already fixed -- thx

68.183.238.154 (talk) 04:51, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Copy edit requested — help please

Hello, I'm not a native speaker, so my English is poor. May someone spellcheck / copyedit my 9 lines, then reintegrate them to the Media reaction section.

After interviewing several protesters CNN reporter Erin Burnett criticized them saying, "They did know what they don't want...it seems like people want a messiah leader, just like they did when they anointed Barack Obama", her report being later itself criticized as biased, condescending, and reductionist, while also reporting she've been an ex-Goldman Sachs and Citigroup employee.

Huffington Post journalist answered the frequently seen request of a "clear message" from journalists to the crow occupying Wall Street as a false interrogation purposely aimed to suggest confusion in the opponent side.

.

CNN journalist Douglas Rushkoff on his side denounced the condescending, reductionist, and superficial view of previous mainstream media reports, and views OWS as the first American political movement fundamentally from the internet, bottom to top, as the Facebook revolutions proceeded. Thus, he claims the movement is gathering numerous complaints, which are believed to be several symptoms of a same governance dysfunction, the collusion between the financial sector and the legislative and executive branches of the country. Over the lack of clear demands, he added:

[Anyone and any media] who says he has no idea what these folks are protesting is not being truthful. Whether we agree with them or not, we all know what they are upset about, and we all know that there are investment bankers working on Wall Street getting richer while things for most of the rest of us are getting tougher.

On October 5, TV host Jon Stewart made a humoristic overview of the recent anti-OWS media coverage, enlightening the simplistic and partisan view broadcast in previous days. but the victimisation of the protesters have also been denounced.

"Will Bunch, author of 'The Backlash,' on mainstream media's failure to cover Wall Street protests". current.com. September 21, 2011. Retrieved September 22, 2011.

"Media Non-Coverage of Occupy Wall Street Gets Lots of Media Coverage". The Atlantic Wire.

Weiss, Joanna (September 27, 2011). "The right way to get heard". The Boston Globe. Retrieved October 4, 2011.

Tripp, Ben (10/03). "What Are Your Demands?". Huffingtonpost.com. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/276-74/7571-what-if-the-tea-party-occupied-wall-street

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/09/29/trendsmap-proves-scary-twitter-censorship-occupywallstreet-trending-topics-72701/

"Will Bunch, author of 'The Backlash,' on mainstream media's failure to cover Wall Street protests". current.com. September 21, 2011. Retrieved September 22, 2011.

Stelter, Brian (October 5, 2011). "Coverage Grows for Wall Street Protest". The New York Times. Retrieved October 6, 2011.

Weiss, Joanna (27 September 2011). "The right way to get heard". The Boston Globe. Retrieved 6 October 2011.

Bellafante, Ginia (23 September 2011). "Gunning for Wall Street, With Faulty Aim". The New York Times. Retrieved 6 October 2011.

Thompson, Derek (4 October 2011). "'Occupy Wall Street': What Should a Populist Movement Ask of Washington?". The Atlantic. Retrieved 6 October 2011.

Fairness.org (Oct. 4). "CNN's Factcheck Failure on Occupy Wall Street". {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

Rushkoff, Douglas (10/05). "Think Occupy Wall St. is a phase? You don't get it". CNN.com. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

Tripp, Ben (10/03). "What Are Your Demands?". Huffingtonpost.com. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

McGlynn, Katla (Oct. 6). "Jon Stewart: How Is Occupy Wall Street Not Like The Tea Party?". TheHuffingtonPost.com. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

Tripp, Ben (10/03). "What Are Your Demands?". Huffingtonpost.com. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

McGlynn, Katla (Oct. 6). "Jon Stewart: How Is Occupy Wall Street Not Like The Tea Party?". TheHuffingtonPost.com. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

Wemple, Erik (Oct. 6). "Occupy Wall Street merited a slow media reaction". TheWashingtonPost.com. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

Please correct directly, it's a wiki. Yug (talk) 05:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Yug, could you make the references available? Gandydancer (talk) 12:51, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Occupy Jacksonville

Since I no longer use my main Wikipedia account and this is semi-protected, I guess this is the only place I can put this. There is now a Occupy Jacksonville event that will be occurring. See a local news article, of which this is probably only one of the many there are. Jacksonville, Florida should be added to the beginning intro with the other cities that have other events. 67.142.161.32 (talk) 07:06, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

If the introduction is about protests that have already occurred or started, then the word is October 8 is when the Jacksonville Occupation will begin, so you can wait until tomorrow or the next to have some reliable sources on the event going to start at Hemming Plaza. 67.142.161.32 (talk) 07:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Protests in other cities

Considering there are protests all over the country now, I would like to suggest that this article no longer presents a global view of the subject. While it is still a protest in New York City, it has morphed into a national protest movement, with branches forming or present in every major U.S. city I could think to Google after the word "occupy". I really think we need to cover the national aspects of this better, and I'm sure there are notable events occurring in other cities that could be mentioned. Daughter article, perhaps? --Pstanton (talk) 08:20, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps we should start an article called 2011 Occupy protests ? Peace, MPS (talk) 14:51, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

or List of 2011 Occupy protests if people decide to start their own articles on possibly non-notable occupy (insert city) protests. MPS (talk) 14:53, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

In my view 2011 Occupy protests is a more elegant solution, and provides the opportunity for a bit more contextual text than a list. I have now created an Occupy Wall Street category, although I expect that a 2011 Occupy protests category will need to be created above it in the near future. Rangoon11 (talk) 15:13, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Agree with 2011 Occupy protests. Then we can add in the cities, like Los Angeles. Also, agree we need a 2011 Occupy protests category. Malke 2010 (talk) 16:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

FWIW Buffalo NY also has an Occupy protest going on now too .... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.45.221.166 (talk) 17:52, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

We are the 99%

Other wp articles claim the slogan was a reference to the famous "Wir sind das Volk"("We are the people") East-Berlin protests in 1989 which lead to the collapse of the Berlin Wall. --Rebestein (talk) 09:49, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what your point is. The US constitution begins with "we the people" ... Populism and Solidarity movements like to use the word "we". ... "We are Virginia Tech" [7] ... yes we can... etc. Not relevant here. MPS (talk) 14:49, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

good job on wiki page on occuy wall street, but can I make suggestions?

I am reading Occupy Wall Street Wikipedia page, good job! Can I make a couple suggestions? Searches for 'Occupy Movement' or (for example) 'Occupy Ventura' (my home) do not bring you directly to Occupy Wall Street page. It would be good to keep up to date on all the local movements, and have them listed on that page. Also, a page for the 1% should be made, and include as much specific information as possible, about who, specifically 'they' are (they will hate that), and what kind of excesses they live with, and most importantly - (specific again when possible) how they use their money to manipulate politics and the economy. Koch brothers are the obvious example, but there have to be more, less know ones that people don't know about (I don't know who they are). Trump should be in there too, but to me, he is more of a clown than anything else. Dug — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dugjohann (talk • contribs) 15:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

We cannot take sides in this protest or do things to "expose" others per the non-point-of-view guideline. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 16:38, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Scapler ... also, though we have not, to date, included a "responses from Wall Street" section ... If we can find reliable sources from the chair of the Fed... or prominent Wall Street CEOs... or representatives of the NYSE / NASDAQ... I would certainly be in support of including these in the response section. It is also important to note that We are the 99% is just a slogan, and any given percentage number (e.g., wealthiest 1%, top 50%, the other 99%) actually represents an arbitrary mathematical cut line. Wealth is generally understood to be spread [[across a distribution. Peace,MPS (talk) 18:46, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

International Occupations

I'm by no means an expert on the use of Facebook for protest movements, but it seems that there are protests being planned for many more locations than the ones listed here... It seems that there are a number of Facebook pages ("communities", "events", "cause", etc., all starting with "Occupy" and then the location), most of them linked to a greater "Occupy Together" page (http://www.facebook.com/#!/OccupyTogether; apparently it has more than twice as many likes as OWS' page). Many of these don't have many followers (though, for comparison, while the Syrian Revolution has nearly .3 million likes, the Egyptian Revolution page with the highest viewership has only 5600 likes, though I acknowledge they aren't necessarily good for comparison). I read on OWS' page that Occupy Baltimore would be initiating there occupation today, and I believe the others mostly represent protests in the planning. As was apparently explained on one, first they found the page, and once it starts to get support, they start to set dates.

Many of these have thousands of likes, and are set for their first events this weekend (mostly large US cities not yet mentioned on the page). Perhaps the global movement of Occupy Together (there are notable pages for not only Canada and Puerto Rico, but also Tokyo, Europe and Berlin, for example) should at least get a mention on the page.

Also, we might note this page (http://www.facebook.com/#!/Op.Revolution.France?sk=info) about a similar movement in France, apparently making reference/linking to both the Occupations and the Spanish protests. It has a considerable viewership apparently. --Yalens (talk) 17:42, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

We are likely to need an article for London soon too: [8]. There is no doubt this is growing fast.Rangoon11 (talk) 18:00, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Two points:

(1) Before we start an article like is suggested above, we probably need to dicuss notability criteria. Is a protest notable just because it has a website? I say no, because anyone can make an Occupy Peoria website or facebook event. According to wikipedia notability criteria, "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list." So when your local mainstream news affiliate (not the Peoria Independent Revolution Media Network) covers the occupy Peoria event, then, I would definitely personally agree that it meets notability guidelines.

(2) If we do decide to make it, to what degree should an Occupy Together article list all the "related" sites. I mean all these protests are "rising up" in solidarity, but they are supposedly leaderless and unconnected etcetera... I say this because at some point, some organization like ANSWER Coalition or Westboro Baptist Church or SOMETHING is going to come along and we will have to sort out whether they are really "in or "out" ... my provisional suggestion is to start the "2011 Occupy protests article and then have a section on Occupy Together... and sort it out at that point. Also, you know that there will be people unhappy with this name, and we will have to haggle over it some more. Unless I hear substantial suggestion I am going to start this article ASAP.

Peace, MPS (talk) 18:37, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

What I found interesting (about the fb pages) is that they (in addition to being in national languages often), tended to cater to the demands of the left-wing of the given nation. For example, there was much more mention of nuclear energy on Occupy Berlin's page (and on Occupy Tokyo, I suspect too). Isn't it true, anyhow, that "Occupy-" protests outside the US have already begun, in Canada and the UK (the latter being mentioned in a section on this page?)? In that case, I think should at least open the possibility of presenting them as a global phenomenon (or, perhaps, a Western and Westernized-country phenomenon) that simply started in the West, rather than the current US-centric coverage.--Yalens (talk) 19:09, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Other cities

It's getting too big for the lead. I live in a town of 1500 people, and we had an Occupy rally yesterday. I imagine Oregon will probably end up with 10-50 cities having rallies. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 18:54, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the suggestion above for a '2011 Occupy Protests' type of article is a good way forward now, as there are LOTS of occupations now taking place, many of which don't necessarily warrant individual articles - some will of course, if not straight away - and this article now faces becoming overburdened and unwieldy.Rangoon11 (talk) 19:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I would support the above suggestion, with notable individual protests (for example, Occupy Wall Street) being selected for individual articles. Perhaps it would also make sense to handle different countries and regions differently.--Yalens (talk) 19:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Here's a sample to start filling in... we can move to new article soon... Peace MPS (talk) 19:13, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Why not have the sources in the footnotes instead of having a "reliable sources" column? AGreenEarth (talk) 21:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

City	Country	wiki article	date of first protest	reliable sources	number of people participating	number of people arrested	number of people killed number of dollars spent	insert other sample headers here
Peoria	United States	Occupy Peoria	October 4	Peoria newspaper
San Jose	United States	Occupy San Jose	July 4, 1492	NBC news
Seattle	United States	Occupy Seattle	etc	etc
Portland	United States	Occupy Portland	etc	etc

table of protest and arrests

how about creating a with all the protest happening all across the u by the starting ate an all the proteters an all of the arrests?--Nrpf22pr (talk) 19:14, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 7 October 2011

I want to add one more country where the pacific protest is taking form. The following will be: Puerto Rico

There is a group of people who will start to occupy the capital of Puerto Rico in Oct. 15.

Thank you.

Aerisvirella (talk) 19:16, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia's policy on future events we would need a reliable source to do a story on the protest. Since it occurs in the future, my opinion is that we should wait until it happens to add mention of it to wikipedia. MPS (talk) 19:19, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Higher-res Bull/Dancer Poster

Holdithigh (talk) 19:23, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello, everybody. I am extremely new to editing wikipedia, but I am just writing to say that I have a higher resolution version of the poster image. Requesting permission to upload it, or at least email to someone who will put it up for me. Whatever it takes to bolster the cause. Thank you!

Thanks for the offer! However, we can only use a low-resolution version under fair use laws because the poster has not been released under an appropriate license by its creator.--~TPW 20:06, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

resource

Wall Street protest functions like a small city by Karen Matthews of the Associated Press 97.87.29.188 (talk) 21:40, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

What specifically is new and appropriate for potential content addition? 99.109.127.58 (talk) 23:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)