Talk:First impeachment of Donald Trump

Impeachment trial of Donald Trump

I converted this third article on the subject to a redirect here. Rmhermen (talk) 05:10, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Being this is the third impeachment of a US President, this is clearly notable and historic. Sources have already stated its significance and will be massively expanded in the upcoming months. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 05:27, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
• This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I was wondering if perhaps the content of this article should be merged back into the inquiry article which would then assume the "Impeachment of Donald Trump" title, with the Senate trial and the lead-up to it then receiving its own page because the Senate trial is a separate process from impeachment, which is a House process. They "try" the impeachment, but the Senate's actions are not part of impeachment. Master of Time (talk) 08:30, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
  • The inquiry article was too damn long. It needed some pruning, which is why we need the two new articlesArglebargle79 (talk) 12:14, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
    • Do you really need to say damn every time you go on record opposing a merge? I'm allowed to disagree. And if you consider my basic argument, the material specific to the impeachment 'vote' is actually quite limited. Just look at this article as it is right now, disregarding the 70 KB. The actual impeachment section (and if you want, polls section) is actually quite short. My thinking is that this article and the inquiry material should all be together as "Impeachment of Donald Trump," with a separate trial article for the second phase of the process (which is where I would expect most of the growth + added text to occur). Down the line, if necessary, future commentary on Trump's impeachment that doesn't relate to the Senate trial or anything else can have (a) separate fork(s). Master of Time (talk) 12:17, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't but it's necessary here. The question of limiting the articles to Ukraine was a contentious one and needs to be addressed. The protests and reactions need a place to go as well.Arglebargle79 (talk) 12:39, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose No. As I have stated ad nauseum, there is a need for an "index page" (this one) and a separate trial page, as there is going to be plenty of information and drama surrounding it now that you-know-who has actually been impeached and the focus of American politics is the Senate trial. As to Andy Johnson and Clinton, their trials took place before the invention of Wikipedia, and Clinton's scandal has at least three or four articles. Arglebargle79 (talk) 12:14, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
• That article is a product of WP:RECENTISM, as we don't have such an article for Andrew Johnson or Bill Clinton. GoodDay (talk) 12:12, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
  • The Andy Johnson article is almost all about the trial. There were two investigations in 1867 that weren't even mentioned, including one that went all the way to the floor and lost. The fact that they impeached first in 1868 and wrote the articles later is barely even mentioned there. Again look at the difference between the 2004 Republican Convention article and the 1956 one. the latter is barely a stub, and the other is rather long and detailed. Why? Wikipedia didn't exist in 1956. It's the same here. Doing a really good job on the AJ impeachment would require tons of original research, or reading lots of really old books. The Clinton impeachment was mostly an afterthought that backfired. No one wanted Clinton impeached by the time he was...Arglebargle79 (talk) 12:31, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - I oppose merging Impeachment trial of Donald Trump into Impeachment of Donald Trump. There will be enough notable content for at least three articles (Parent article: "Impeachment of Donald Trump" which provides summary-style synopses of these two detail-level articles: "Impeachment inquiry against Donald Trump" and "Impeachment trial of Donald Trump"). I disagree with some of Arglebargle79's historical analysis, particularly about the Clinton impeachment. I wouldn't oppose the creation of a well-written article titled "Impeachment inquiry against Bill Clinton" (I would appreciate reading it, and might even be convinced to write it), and I believe the only reason why we don't have one is because Wikipedia didn't exist in 1998. I strongly agree with the core insight Arglebargle79 provides here in the comparison of the 1956 Republican Convention and the 2004 Republican Convention. -- RobLa (talk) 18:14, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
• Absolutely support This third article was never discussed, should not have been created, and there is no reason for it. The title should be made into a redirect unless and until consensus is reached to have THREE-for-heavens-sake separate articles on the impeachment, against all precedent and against all logic. And folks, please stop claiming that "Clinton's impeachment has multiple articles," that is simply false. Clinton's impeachment has one article about the impeachment, plus supporting articles about the scandal. Trump's article should also have one article about the impeachment, plus supporting articles about the scandal (see Trump-Ukraine scandal). --MelanieN alt (talk) 00:11, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support for now: I think it is justified to have a separate article about the trial, but not until the trial has actually started. 00:42, 20 December 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nine hundred ninety-nine (talk • contribs)
• Support for now per Nine hundred ninety-nine. Once the trial is actually going to start, we should change the redirect into an actual article. Seems obvious enough. Kaldari (talk) 01:08, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support: Three is just excessive, and quite unnecessary, only further complicating matters for readers who want to be informed on the subject. --MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 22:14, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
• Support for now, for reasons explained just above. UpdateNerd (talk) 10:38, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose 2600:1702:2340:9470:8C07:C8D3:185B:B55C (talk) 00:25, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, these articles continue to balloon in size unnecessarily. I'm uncertain why we're insisting on having one or two gigantic articles instead of smaller articles that can really tackle the details of each step. I note that an editor involved in this discussion has unilaterally decided the discussion here constituted "consensus" and merged it again... —Locke Cole • t • c 06:28, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Is this video public domain?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGDSG9cj0VE It's from the house floor, should be PD?

Victor Grigas (talk) 23:32, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Works of PBS are not in the Public Domain, no. -Thespündragon 01:35, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@Victorgrigas and Thespoondragon: Not exactly. The video was recorded using cameras that belong to the House and therefore are in the Public Domain. Even the on screen graphics identifying who is speaking comes from the Clerk of the House of Representatives. (See [1]) You can't take a work that is in the Public Domain and stamp it with your logo (which itself is in the public domain because of c:COM:TOO US) then claim it is copyrighted. This video is in the public domain.

However, the question becomes more complicated with footage from other networks with more complex on-screen graphics like CNN. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:31, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Is this whole playlist also PD? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6P0sM21Tpw&list=PLgawtcOBBjr_4n_02kUz8Po5NcZg_a2dS Victor Grigas (talk) 03:38, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Victorgrigas, yes, I see no additions that constitute a creative work to pass the threshold of originality (TOO). --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 07:30, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Controlled by the Democratic Party

I object to edits that attempt to insert non-NPOV wording into the lead such as this and this. I invite Jdillonf to obtain consensus here for this edit before adding it back into the article in any form.- MrX 🖋 13:48, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Indeed; the House acted as a body. That it is controlled by Democrats is immaterial to that. Party affiliation can be discussed as part of discussing the vote totals or something. 331dot (talk) 13:57, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Because the 'impeachment' was so blatantly farcial it has to be pointed out continually throughout the article that this exercise is a partisan exercise, and at no time should any of this article infer that Republicans had ANYTHING to do with it. It is imperative that that tone be represented. At this time the article represents the talking points of the office of the Speaker of the House and the DNC.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdillonf (talk • contribs)

That Democrats control the House is immaterial to the fact that the House acted as a body. It also was not just Democrats, as independent ex-Republican Justin Amash voted in favor. Several Republican officials not in Congress have supported their actions, including John Kasich and Tom Ridge. There is also general agreement that most of the GOP caucus is simply too afraid of Trump and his supporters to oppose him openly. 331dot (talk) 15:05, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

The Democrats will not consider their control of the House immaterial when they make claims in the future that this was one of their great accomplishments. It would be a factual assertion that the impeachment inquiry and the vote on the articles would never have reached the stage they did without the Democratic Party's multiple committee chairmen. Indeed, they will themselves emphasize the lack of Republican support, just as you do. (That is an understatement, given the impassioned opposition by more than one ranking committee member.) Granted, a lot of conservative media personalities are asserting that it is already one of their great embarrassments. However, I expect them to make those assertions anyway. Whatever the current Democratic leadership thinks they have achieved in the annals of Congress, they are on track to replace classic illustrations of the word "chutzpah".SvensKenR (talk) 20:10, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

NO REPUBLICAN VOTED FOR IMPEACHMENT! This is the headline that has to be repeated throughout this article as a counterweight to obvious propaganda that is now spewing across the page. That no Republican voted for the impeachment is paramount in a understanding of this subject. If you want to continue to rant about your own politics, go somewhere else. This page has to instruct (this is Wikipedia, not your blog) why the Democratic Party insisted on trying to impeach President Donald John Trump five times before they succeeded.Jdillonf (talk) 16:05, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Jdillonf, what is "paramount" here is that Trump attempted to unduly influence a foreign government to investigate a U.S. citizen. That's why he was impeached. That no Republican, save Justin Amash, of course, voted to impeach is an important detail covered in the article already. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:32, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Hearsay & presumptions don't amount to concrete evidence, however. It's up to the Senate to decide if Trump's guilty or not. GoodDay (talk) 16:37, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Concrete evidence already exists in not only testimony, but documentation, and self-admission by the administration. What isn't being decided isn't the fact of what happened. That's already known, admitted-to, well-corroborated, and established. The only thing the Senate will decide is whether or not the facts of what happened merit disqualification and removal from office. The truth exists outside of verdicts. Wikipedia just has to be careful with WP:BLPCRIME because without public backing of an indictment or conviction, not much can be said without risking legal issues. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 19:00, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

@GoodDay: - Trump and the White House: key witnesses, don’t testify, don’t provide documents. Sondland blocked from reviewing calls and notes. Republicans: what a thin case you have! Where’s the evidence? Not guilty! starship.paint (talk) 23:44, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

We already have Efforts to impeach Donald Trump and Impeachment inquiry against Donald Trump#Previous calls for impeachment which discuss attempts prior to this successful impeachment. Also, the vote counts are labeled clearly by party in the tables. To say anything beyond the facts to frame this as a solely political move by a party would be serious NPOV violations and push propaganda. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 19:00, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Nonsense. Jdillonf (talk) 19:06, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

That impeachments are partisan isn't anything new, as it only requires a simple majority vote. Republicans had the majority in the House during the 1867–69 Congress, when they impeached a Democrat (Andrew Johnson) & Republicans had the majority in the House during the 1997–99 Congress, when they impeached a Democrat (Bill Clinton). So, it's nothing unique. GoodDay (talk) 16:31, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

The article should point out, in the lead and in the text, (the text already makes it clear) that the House vote was along party lines - as it already does for the Judiciary Committee vote. I see that it doesn't and I will add it. There is no need to make more of it than that. --MelanieN alt (talk) 17:40, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

PLEASE EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE EXCLAMATION MARKS ARE NECESSARY. EXCUSE THEM FOR NOW. Can we all just be civil here? Why not screw the political infighting and write Facts and Information. We all have our opinions, but this is no place to discuss them. Use social media for that. What is important is that the World is full of information and mis-information on this subject. BOTH THESE things should be discussed in this article, but keep opinions out of it! Give the QUOTED opinions of person (think Mcarthy and Pelosi) that are informed on this situation, not your own. Even in the talk pages, we should remember this is an encyclopedia, not a platform for personal opinion shuffling. Mulstev (talk) 18:15, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Dig it!Jdillonf (talk) 19:04, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I didn't think anybody was being uncivil. GoodDay (talk) 18:19, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

And please don't SHOUT. Anyhow it is not clear what you are shouting about. What specifically do you think needs to be in the article, that isn't there now? The talk page is for discussing what should go in the article. This specific discussion is about how big a point to make out of the fact that the vote was along near-party lines. IMO there is enough in the article now on that subject. --MelanieN alt (talk) 19:07, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Agreed on both points, and excuse my rashness. However, talk pages are as visible as the main article, even if they are less viewed. The discussion above is civil, bar my own screeches, but it does contain amounts of opinion, which may exist but are damaging to the fact based ideals of wikipedia. I write mainly to warn, and hopefully to remind, that there are persons always looking for ways to discredit or laugh at sources of information which are user-edited, such as Wikipedia. There is no reason to put anything on or in an article or talk page that may be damaging toward public opinion and trust of Wikipedia. Hopefully this second comment clarifies my above comment. Apologies if they be needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mulstev (talk • contribs) 19:35, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

This doesn't really make much sense, talk pages are meant to discuss what people think about the article, so of course it'll have people's opinions in it.  Nixinova   T   C   21:28, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

The article should be as objective as possible. It should include the fact that only democrats were in favor of impeachment and there was bipartisann support for Trump. You can simply cite the voting record. Any comment about what individuals outside the house thought about impeachment does nothing to make the article any more complete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.12.236 (talk) 22:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC) — 72.94.12.236 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The article already cites the voting record. In detail. MelanieN alt (talk) 05:54, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

No, not only Democrats supported impeachment. Amash is independent, he supported impeachment. starship.paint (talk) 23:46, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

• User:Jdillonf is correct, the partisan nature of the vote and the entire proceeding is the most often mentioned aspect of this - it has greater WP:WEIGHT than the counts do. The ‘Democrats in the House’ wording seems OK, or one could explicitly say partisan such as ‘In an almost totally partisan vote, the House’, or something else. But to say ‘House’ alone is giving a false portrayal. Do we need a straw poll or rfc on this ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:58, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
  • You haven't shown any sources to support your claim, nor have you shown how you determined that the "the partisan nature of the vote and the entire proceeding is the most often mentioned aspect of this". I just searched "impeachment" and the very first source says "His iron grip was never firmer than over the last two months, during the House inquiry that concluded Wednesday with Mr. Trump’s impeachment on charges of abuse of power and obstructing Congress."[2] Nothing about Trump being impeached by Democrats. As a couple of editors including myself have said, the house acts as one body. - MrX 🖋 15:18, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
    • SO, are you suggesting that it be stated within the article that the House impeached Trump as a single body? I wonder what Kevin Mccarthy would say on that? [3] Early in the video, (i cant find a transcript) he uses pronouns such as 'we' and 'us' when describing the house, regardless of party. He, however, later refers to Pelosi and her democratic colleagues as 'they' and 'them'. Perhaps to split the argument, it could be stated that, as a body, the house vote, although along party lines, was for impeachment. Individual's within that body, however, see things differently (as expected), and therefore vote (predominately) according to party affiliation. Mulstev (talk) 07:16, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Impeachment did not actually occur yet

According to articles from Bloomberg and National Review, President Trump is not impeached until the House sends the articles of impeachment to the Senate. Should consider revising these pages to reflect so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MugwumpSpirit110 (talk • contribs) 16:07, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

MugwumpSpirit110, those are opinion pieces. I don't believe those opinions are the consensus view of things. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

What matters is 1) what reliable sources say and 2) what the House itself says. Every newspaper/media outlet in the US had a variation of "House impeached Trump" as their headline. The House itself gets to determine if they impeached someone as the Constitution gives the House the "sole power of impeachment". The view that it is not valid until actually carried across the Capitol Building to the Senate(which can't be done until the session resumes on January 6th) is the opinion of those who hold that view and is not an official finding. It would be like saying your dinner is not finished until you put your plate in the dishwasher. 331dot (talk) 16:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I'll copy here what I said at Talk:Donald Trump: We should keep, in the lead, the affirmative statement that he has been impeached. All Reliable Sources are treating the House vote as being actual impeachment, and previous impeachments have been dated as of the House vote. But several publications have noted Feldman's opinion, published in a Blooomberg op-ed here, and reportedly the White House is considering making the argument.[4] So we could add a sentence to the House Vote section of the text, attributed to Feldman and identified as opinion. Something like "Legal scholar Noah Feldman has stated in an op-ed that it is not an actual impeachment until the report is forwarded to the Senate, and the White House has echoed the argument." Sorry, I can't add it myself; I am not at my regular computer and would have difficulty citing references. --MelanieN alt (talk) 17:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. 331dot (talk) 18:06, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

According to the US Constitution, Trump was impeached the moment the full House passed the first impeachment article & Pelosi confirmed the result. GoodDay (talk) 18:13, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

So does that mean you are opposed to adding a sentence about Feldman's opinion - and the White House's possible use of it? Trying to get opinions here. --MelanieN alt (talk) 18:42, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

BTW I found the following sentence at our article Impeachment in the United States: Second, the House of Representatives must pass, by a simple majority of those present and voting, articles of impeachment, which constitute the formal allegation or allegations. Upon passage, the defendant has been "impeached". If this becomes a bigger issue than the opinion of one person, it might be worth citing that here. --MelanieN alt (talk) 18:50, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

He's been impeached, keep it in the leader. Note the name of the article itself. GoodDay (talk) 18:47, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree with keeping it in the lead, unqualified. My suggestion was to add a sentence to the article text. --MelanieN alt (talk) 18:50, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Rusf10 made a suggestion at the main Donald Trump article: we change the language to read "the House voted to impeach," and we remove "was impeached"/"third president to be impeached" and anything else like that until legal scholars resolve the controversy. While the debate goes on, I think we should stay with language that all sides agree on. Architeuthidæ (talk) 21:28, 20 December 2019 (UTC)— Architeuthidæ (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

There is no debate, just some opinions that differ with what most other sources and the House itself says. 331dot (talk) 21:34, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Ordinarily I would probably just say, yes, let's just go by what the majority of the reporting is saying, but this isn't an ordinary situation. It's the first time in American history that the House has refused to send articles of impeachment to the Senate after passing them, so we're in uncharted territory. Also the op-ed this morning from the House Democrats' own legal expert stating that Trump hasn't been impeached is pretty stunning, actually. In all likelihood, this will all become moot in relatively short order when Nancy finally forks over those articles...but in the meantime there is some definite ambiguity here. Architeuthidæ (talk) 21:46, 20 December 2019 (UTC)— Architeuthidæ (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Nothing has yet been withheld, the articles cannot be delivered until the Senate is back in session on January 6th. Pelosi has said she is only waiting until the structure of the trial is agreed to, so she can decide who she wants for managers. 331dot (talk) 21:50, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Sources are saying she's holding onto them for now, and she could have delivered them before the recess but chose not to until the Senate does what she wants the Senate to do.[5][6][7] Lots of language like "refusing," "sitting on," "holding up," etc. I don't think it's in contention that she's withholding the articles until her demands are met. Architeuthidæ (talk) 21:58, 20 December 2019 (UTC)— Architeuthidæ (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

If a federal official commits a crime or otherwise acts improperly, the House of Representatives may impeach—formally charge—that official. https://www.senate.gov/reference/Index/Impeachment.htm

The legal meaning of “formally charged” is that charges have been filed.

Even though the house has voted to impeach, charges have not been filed. Hence Donald Trump has NOT been impeached. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MoMoBig (talk • contribs) 22:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

MoMoBig Every reliable source in the United States disagrees with you, as does the House itself. 331dot (talk) 23:34, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Then it’s about time to overthink Wikipedia’s “reliable sources”, because the word impeachment literally means that charges are filed and it is a fact that charges have NOT been filed.MoMoBig (talk) 00:35, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

So now there are two law professors arguing that impeachment has not occurred. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/20/us/trump-feldman-impeach.html 99.203.17.28 (talk) 00:22, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not care about truth, per se, but the representation of truth in popular thought. Things can be clearly wrong, technically, but be considered "correct," by Wikipedia standards of reliable sources. Wikipedia editing is more of a theological discussion, than a scientific one, so don't start talking about technicalities and truths. Talk about what reliable sources think, and adjust weight accordingly. Hey, it is why your middle school teacher told you not to use Wikipedia as a source. 2601:982:4200:8C80:81BD:612A:6457:BF48 (talk) 00:43, 21 December 2019 (UTC)— 2601:982:4200:8C80:81BD:612A:6457:BF48 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

What on Earth are you even talking about? Take that line of reasoning to ANY non-entertainment/media-focused article and see how long your edits last before being reverted. I don't know where you're getting this from, but truth has always been a major concern of Wikipedia. Of course an online encyclopedia mostly written by hobbyists isn't always going to be perfectly accurate, but if a source is wrong about something that will generally be noted. If something is contentious or in a grey area that will also generally be noted. The idea that sources should be cited just because they're considered reliable regardless of truth is an absolute and utter appeal to authority. 51.37.13.189 (talk) 01:15, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

This is an interesting question. Sadly, there is no court/legal precedent regarding it. There does seem disagreement among legal scholars so whether or not that's the case seems be hard to say. However, the longer the articles are delayed the fact of this question does become more important. So the most factual statement would be the articles of impeachment have formally been approved, and the rest of the process is in progress or pending. It's not a far fetched idea though like presidents instead of vetoing a bill have waited to sign or veto it leaving it limbo. You also have things like the 27th amendment; it's certainly possible to delay or put things in limbo by not following through processes.--50.37.100.51 (talk) 03:07, 21 December 2019 (UTC)— 50.37.100.51 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

WP:WINRS "Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Wikipedia can be edited by anyone at any time. This means that any information it contains at any particular time could be vandalism, a work in progress, or just plain wrong. Politically or culturally contentious topics are especially vulnerable to these issues." Works as predicted....71.136.189.245 (talk) 08:48, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

I am quite aware of that fact about Wikipedia. I don't see why that's a good reason to not care about facts. I merely was commenting this is an interesting question, and legal scholars are divided on it's answer. There also is the fact this has not happened in past impeachments, and depending on how long they are withheld becomes more important. The most extreme case would be let's say they are withheld indefinitely. That question would certainly need to be answered then. The longer the time frame the more relevant a factual answer becomes. However, I doubt such an extreme would happen so it's merely an interesting question as I have stated earlier. That probably will become moot once sent to the senate. --50.37.100.51 (talk) 13:00, 21 December 2019 (UTC)— 50.37.100.51 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

It's really splitting hairs to say it's not an official impeachment until the bill is transmitted to the Senate. When Pelosi pounded the gavel, the impeachment was official. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Someone in SoCal Area (talk) 18:32, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, it really is not splitting hairs in the sense of "No ifs, ands, or buts about it," sort of fashion. It is in the sense of public discourse, but not in a technical sense. The house wrote the charges, voted to submit the charges, and... may never actually file the charges. If one never file the charges, how can another be guilty of something never submitted to trial? This isn't even a partisan thing, it is a basic logic of how our laws work thing. If I had the reckon, a supreme court judgement would probably agree with the idea of, legally, technically, impeachment hasn't occurred until charges are filed, and submitted. None of this matters for this article though. They will almost assuredly be submitted in Q1 2020, and in public eye, and public discourse, impeachment has 99.9% already happened. All left now, is a rubber stamp. 2601:982:4200:8C80:81BD:612A:6457:BF48 (talk) 19:27, 21 December 2019 (UTC)— 2601:982:4200:8C80:81BD:612A:6457:BF48 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

If the impeachment was official when Pelosi pounded the gavel, then the Senate can proceed immediately, can it not? The question is, can the Senate proceed or not? If it can proceed, then Pelosi is doing nothing at all by "withholding" the articles from the Senate. If it cannot, then impeachment is not official. I submit, however, that in normal trial procedure, the court trying someone without actually having been presented with charges would be a galactical gross abuse of state power, and the prosecution deciding to try a suspect but never actually informing the court would be 1) an equally large abuse of power or 2) absolutely nothing at all, depending on whether or not the suspect is being held pending charges. In either case, you have to actually inform the court you intend to try someone before anything becomes official. So with impeachment. Sonar1313 (talk) 05:28, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

It's doubtful that the courts would rule on when impeachment is technically valid. In Nixon v. United States(about Walter Nixon, not Richard), SCOTUS ruled that how the Senate conducts an impeachment trial is a political question that the courts cannot resolve, since the Senate has the "sole power to try impeachments". Since the House has the "sole power of impeachment", the courts would likely also determine that how the House conducts an impeachment is not for them to decide. 331dot (talk) 19:35, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Like we can only speculate what the courts would say. Again I think this merely an interesting question. The only reason I see this ever getting to a court though is if it's held indefinitely. The courts could easily defer the decision to house rules comittee since the house has the power of impeachment. However, the question still is "does an incomplete process count as impeachment". However, it is highly unlikely the articles get held indefinitely. Nonetheless, the argument of voting to impeach and never formally telling anyone or continuing the process afterwards does appear to have some merit. Broadcast television and such is not a formal statement of the house. Formalities, are important in government. For example the house can't even introduce a bill unless its physically been placed in the hopper in the house. So let's say for some reason the house voted on a bill that was never placed in that hopper. That bill was never formally introduced, and would need to be voted on again. The reason I bring this up is you see a lot these corner cases of formalities have been figured out in the senate and house for routine things like bills. Contrastingly, impeachment is anything but routine. So corner cases/formalities have not been worked out. Henceforth, why I find it interesting. --50.37.100.51 (talk) 21:58, 21 December 2019 (UTC)— 50.37.100.51 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• By the thinking above on impeachment not having taken place, how do we account for Impeachment of Andrew Johnson#Verdict and Impeachment of Bill Clinton#Verdict? History tells us both these men were impeached. — Maile (talk) 23:15, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Well in both those cases the articles where forwarded to the senate. The fact they have been withheld here is unprecedented. This has lead to questions regarding the formalities of impeachment, but there is disagreement among legal scholars. However, unless they are withheld indefinitely or till trump has left office the question is merely about the formal process. It still is an interesting question, but unless something even less likely and unprecedented happens the answer is kinda moot. As it's a pretty much a forgone conclusion they will be sent to the senate and it is just matter of when. So you could say impeached in practice, but whether or formally is under contention. However, it's just conjecture unless either the courts or the house rules committee clarifies the formal requirements. --50.37.100.51 (talk) 23:33, 21 December 2019 (UTC)— 50.37.100.51 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I agree that Trump (technically) has not yet been impeached. Article I section 2 clause 5 of the U.S. constitution states “ The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.” As the articles are still in the hands of the House, and not the senate (yet) technically speaking, Trump may not be impeached (yet). There should be a clause in the article stating the debate as to whether or not he has been impeached such as “some legal scholars currently hold the belief that Trump is not officially impeached until the charges are officially brought to the Senate. This belief is not held by most mainstream media outlets, as the impeachment dates for previous presidents are listed as the day of the vote to impeach so the technicalities of Trump’s impeachment are unclear” Jacket2018 (talk) 19:04, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I disagree. If it says the House has "sole power", they have sole power. The Senate is not involved in the impeachment charges. Senate is responsible for the trial and potentionally subsequent removal. No where in the Constitution does it state that the House must submit articles to the Senate in order for the official to be "impeached". If you want to argue the "formally charge" argument, the formal charges are in House Resolution 755, under "RESOLUTION". The charges were created, and voted on. This formally charges him. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 19:21, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Impeachment has not yet occurred. The order of events necessary for Impeachment is as follows: The House votes on Articles of Impeachment. A simple majority of votes is for Impeachment. The House speaker announces the vote result and adoption of the Articles of Impeachment. The House nominates people to legally represent itself for the Impeachment trial in the Senate. The House sends the Articles of Impeachment to the Senate and informs the Senate who its legal representatives are. The Senate opens the trial by having the House' legal representatives stand up and announce that, "The House impeaches person X for Articles of Impeachment XYZ." Xenagoras (talk) 19:35, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Impeachment has occured. Impeachment is the sole power and responsibility of the House, the Senate does not participate in the impeachment. The Senate participates in the Trial (comes after impeachment), which is the trying of the articles of impeachment to see if the regarded official should be removed. Impeachment is the charge. If you can point me to a reliable source that states that the House must submit articles to the Senate for a proper impeachment, please inform me of them. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 19:42, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

The Senate does not participate? Maybe you missed where the Constitution says "The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present." Article I, Section 3, Clause 6.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 00:30, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

That is trying. The judgement of the impeachment. THe House does impeachment. Senate does trial. They are seperate but related. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 02:25, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

It's very easy to understand with a little common sense. Just compare the impeachment to any other trial at a court of law. Regarding Impeachment, the House of Representatives is equivalent to the body of public prosecutors.[8] It conducts an investigation (the Impeachment hearing) to find facts as basis to decide if there is an offense to be prosecuted and it writes the bill of indictment (the Articles of Impeachment) and it decides whether or not to indict (the House vote on December 18). The House speaker is the equivalent of the attorney general. In agreement with the House members, the speaker nominates a couple of federal prosecutors (Impeachment managers) to represent the body of public prosecutors (the House) during the trial in the court (the Senate). The Impeachment managers deliver the bill of indictment (the Articles of Impeachment) to the court (the Senate). The court (represented by the Senate leader) accepts the bill of indictment and notifies the Impeachment managers at what date and time the trial can begin. The Senate leader also notifies the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the planned date and time of the trial. The Chief Justice of the Supreme Court acts as chief judge of the Impeachment trial and the Senators act as jury.[9] The trial begins when the Sergeant at Arms in the Senate proclaims, "All persons are commanded to keep silence, on pain of imprisonment, while the House of Representatives is exhibiting to the Senate of the United States articles of impeachment against ------ ------ "; after which the articles shall be exhibited. The full details of the Impeachment procedure are described in PROCEDURE AND GUIDELINES FOR IMPEACHMENT TRIALS IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE See also [10], [11] and [12] Having now understood the Impeachment as a trial at a court of law and which roles the various actors have to fulfill, we can read how arraignment works: Under the United States Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, " arraignment shall [...] [consist of an] open [...] reading [of] the indictment [...] to the defendant [...] and call[] on him to plead thereto. He/she shall be given a copy of the indictment [...] before he/she is called upon to plead." Xenagoras (talk) 00:34, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

The charges are the impeachment. The trial is the judging to see if the impeachment is enough to remove the official from office. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 02:25, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Impeachment is indeed at the sole power and responsibility of the House, and they fulfill this responsibility by presenting articles of impeachment to the relevant authority for trial. They have not yet presented these articles and therefore impeachment has not yet occurred. It's exactly the same as indictment: an indictment is a document presented by a qualified entity to the relevant authority, which becomes actionable on that presentation. In more general terms, a vote in favor of a course of action does not equate to performance of that action: we can vote on where to have lunch, but we have not yet eaten. The fact that so many "reliable sources" do not or pretend not to understand this perhaps obscure but certainly very simple legal or linguistic point throws into question the very idea of "reliability." 123.193.136.104 (talk) 03:30, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

They were presented. They were presented to the House, and the House voted YES; "These charges are valid and do constitute an impeachment. We vote yes, as a body, because this body finds these charges to be correct and thus we have now impeached him", basically. As soon as the House voted Yes on those articles, those articles became the impeachment charges. As impeachment is the sole power of the House, the [sic] "presenting the article of impeachment to the relevant authority for trial" was the House dems presenting the articles to the full House, for a vote. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 04:27, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

That is definitely wrong, because the arraignment = exhibition of the bill of indictment (Articles of Impeachment) occurs in court (the Senate). Xenagoras (talk) 13:57, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't see anything in the article that states this information. I think the article should at least state that according to the legal opinions of whatever the legal experts are, Trump isn't actually impeached until the articles are delivered to the Senate. In this case the House is like the prosecutor, and the Senate is like a court. Impeachment is the formal charge of a crime. This has to occur in a court or in this case the Senate. While the House has voted to make the charge, they haven't actually made the charge until they give it to the Senate, the court in this case. Some of the press articles mentioned above give some good incite into this view.Sf46 (talk) 04:32, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2019

Change "The impeachment of Donald Trump, the 45th president of the United States, occurred on December 18, 2019, when the House of Representatives approved articles of impeachment on abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.[1] President Trump's impeachment came after a House impeachment inquiry found that Trump solicited foreign interference in the 2020 U.S. presidential election to help his re-election bid (the Trump–Ukraine scandal), and then obstructed the inquiry itself by telling his administration officials to ignore subpoenas for documents and testimony. The inquiry reported that Trump withheld military aid and an invitation to the White House in order to influence Ukraine into announcing investigations into Trump's political rival, Joe Biden, and a discredited claim that Ukraine interfered in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.[3][4][5]:8,208"

to "On December 18, 2019, the House of Representatives approved articles of impeachment on abuse of power and obstruction of Congress against Donald Trump, the 45th president of the United States. The articles of impeachment must be transmitted to the Senate in order to complete the impeachment process. The impeachment vote came after a House impeachment inquiry found that Trump solicited foreign interference in the 2020 U.S. presidential election to help his re-election bid (the Trump–Ukraine scandal), and then obstructed the inquiry itself by telling his administration officials to ignore subpoenas for documents and testimony. The inquiry reported that Trump withheld military aid and an invitation to the White House in order to influence Ukraine into announcing investigations into Trump's political rival, Joe Biden, and a contested claim that Ukraine interfered in the 2016 U.S. presidential election.[3][4][5]:8,208"

1. By definition, Trump is not impeached yet, reference constitutional scholars rather than biased media headlines https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-12-19/trump-impeachment-delay-could-be-serious-problem-for-democrats Initially, Noah Feldman was the only Constitutional expert publicly recognized by media outlets as holding that historical precedent requires the articles of impeachment are officially transmitted to the Senate, and until that happens President Trump is not technically impeached. As he backed his stance with lower judicial rulings from OK and FL which required transmission of impeachment articles to the Senate in order to make impeachment official, in his explanation for why can't the Senate start a trial now?, other experts began to join in on both sides of the ensuing debate. Keith E. Whittington of Reason.com added to this discussion with a series of articles in The Volokh Conspiracy editorial, discussing When Is an Officer Impeached? I, II, III, IV Additionally, another stance has also developed in the view that if the articles are not transmitted to the Senate, then the courts could decide if the impeachment is official..

Many of the same sources that headlined "Trump Impeached" have also reported (some grudgingly) that there is or may be technical validity to Noah Feldman's point:

David Montanaro, Fox News Trump is not actually impeached yet, lawyer who testified for Democrats says

Andrew Feinberg, The Independent Trump's lawyers could argue he has not been impeached despite historic vote

Zachary B. Wolf, CNN A technical argument is Trump's new line of attack

Brooke Singman, Fox News Dems' own witness says Trump not truly impeached unless articles go to Senate

Bart Jansen and Ledyard King, USA TODAY Is Trump impeached?

Ben Tracy, Grace Segers, CBS News Is Donald Trump Impeached? White House considers arguing no because articles of impeachment not delivered to Senate

Bob Fredericks, New York Post Trump may not be impeached if Pelosi declines to send articles to Senate: Harvard professor

Adam Liptak, New York Times A Law Professor’s Provocative Argument: Trump Has Not Yet Been Impeached

Andrew C. McCarthy, National Review If Impeachment Articles Are Not Delivered, Did Impeachment Happen?

2. The claim that Ukraine interfered in the 2016 U.S. presidential election is not discredited, it is contested by certain political opponents. The following article is left biased and it admits there is undisputed evidence (in the ledger) that Ukraine interfered in the 2016 election. https://www.thenation.com/article/ukraine-elections-2016/ Rotaryenginepete (talk) 17:42, 21 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Reliable sources all have reported that Trump is impeached. Please see the above discussion on this topic. 331dot (talk) 17:51, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

And reliable sources have contested the claims of impeachment, including constitutional law scholars from Harvard. This is documented in the above conversation, yet well ignored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) 17:58, 21 December 2019 (UTC) — Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

 Not done - Please join the existing discussion and obtain consensus before initiating an edit request.- MrX 🖋 18:17, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Trump is impeached. That is it. No discussion. Opinion articles don't mean anything here.  Nixinova   T   C   18:59, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

On the contrary, headlines don't mean anything here the discussion and RfC on this topic and the opinions are an established minority view. NPOV means respecting all views.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 20:23, 26 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I would say impeached in practice, the question here is about formalities. Formalities are important in government. However, the question is mostly moot unless the house for some crazy and highly unlikely reason holds them indefinitely. Anything, by legal scholars will be conjecture unless courts have made a ruling or the house rules committee has stated formal requirements to finish the process. It's just an interesting question. The formalities for the routine such as bills has already been worked out by the house. Impeachment is anything but routine. Therefore there are formalities that may have not been considered. Considering, it is unprecedented the house has withheld the articles it entirely possible formally impeachment is not complete. However, the effect of this question again is moot unless the house holds them indefinitely or after trump is no longer in office. Unless something like that happens the end result is a given or to repeat a forgone conclusion. Nonetheless, it still is an interesting question and probably would be better related to discussion about the process of impeachment. --50.37.100.51 (talk) 22:22, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Rotaryenginepete Nothing has been ignored. Wikipedia summarizes what independent reliable sources state. The headline of every newspaper/media outlet in the United States and probably around the world was a variation of "Trump impeached". The opinions of any individual constitutional scholar are just that- their opinions, and have no official standing. There may be some way to work those opinions into this article, but that doesn't change what reliable sources have said, that Trump is impeached- which means that's what we say. Feel free to take that up with every media outlet around the world if you disagree with what they have said. 331dot (talk) 19:39, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

as in alternate facts 2600:1702:2340:9470:E534:654A:35F0:C56C (talk) 19:43, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

And thank Mary Magdalene we don't listen to those "facts" here! OP doesn't seem to understand the process of impeachment. I hope they now do. --Trans-Neptunian object (talk) 20:48, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

lol you guys are reaching hard here, headlines don't constitute facts. They've have been wrong before, and they will be wrong again. If the articles of impeachment don't go to the Senate, then the impeachment process will remain incomplete...therefore it isn't an impeachment until that happens. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 03:35, 23 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Just to remind WP has caveats to use of those headlines... a Headline should be only used for indicating importance and not as content cite, I forget the policy name, and same-day coverage is suspect per RSBREAKING. (And these scholars are the relevant experts, so if they come to consensus — or dispute — on the date of Impeachment, that is to be regarded as the Facts by BESTSOURCES, and not umpteen headline writers that want to catch the eye and only have space for three words but don’t necessarily know anything on the topic.) Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:31, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks MarkRotaryenginepete (talk) 03:32, 23 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The impeachment happened already. That process has passed when the House voted "YES" on the articles of impeachment (as described in House Resolution 755). What you're talking about is the Senate trial, which has not happened yet. But impeachment remains. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 10:57, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

According to the LEGAL DICTIONARY, impeachment is a TWO STAGE PROCESS, so no that process hasn't been completed yet. Scholars>headlines. https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/impeachmentRotaryenginepete (talk) 03:32, 23 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The impeachment process is called that because it begins with an impeachment. They couldn't name it after the end, because it can end in one of two ways, and "conviction/acquittal process" is a monster. Out of curiosity, what do you call the first step? InedibleHulk (talk) 06:38, December 23, 2019 (UTC)

InedibleHulk According to the legal definition I cited there must be an (step 1) impeachment inquiry AND (step 2) impeachment vote/trial if necessary, regardless of the variable outcomes the last step/stage of the impeachment process isn't completed. Legal dictionary for impeachment states "The two-stage process begins in the House of Representatives with a public inquiry into allegations. It culminates, if necessary, with a trial in the Senate."

The dictionary definition is

im·peach (ĭm-pēch′)

tr.v. im·peached, im·peach·ing, im·peach·es

1.

a. To make an accusation against: impeach someone of a crime.

b. To bring formal charges against (a public official) for wrongdoing while in office.

The lower House of Congress voted and approved articles of impeachment, but they have NOT YET BROUGHT those articles to the place of trial/accusal, which is the upper house of the Senate. This is the equivalent of a prosecution drawing up charges but not submitting them to the court. If the allegations remain unsubmitted, then the two stage impeachment process remains incomplete by definition. This is the same reason that Nixon wasn't impeached, because he resigned under threat of impeachment before the process could be completed. Another parallel example would be a bill passed by the House but not submitted to the Senate would not be considered as successfully completed legislation. 331dot Nixinova WhoAteMyButter MrX don't let opinions get in the way of facts, this is an encyclopedia not an op ed. You could say the House impeached Trump, but you cannot say he is impeached until the articles are transmitted/allegations brought against him. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 14:01, 23 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

331dot Nixinova WhoAteMyButter MrX consider what the Constitution and Senate Impeachment rules say over popular opinion. The Senate has the sole and final say on impeachment, they consider it in a preliminary hearing made by the House impeachment managers, and they can (and did in 1797) dismiss an impeachment resolution altogether. Article I, Section 3, Clause 6 says "The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present." So, this is just like any other regular H.R. legislation bill. If the lower House passes a Resolution and it is not transmitted to or approved by the upper house of Senate, then said legislation isn't passed or completed. The official and reliable sources include those Constitutional scholars originally cited, the Constitution and history from https://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/articles/1/essays/17/trial-of-impeachment , and the Senate website https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/resources/pdf/1_1868ImpeachmentRules.pdf Rotaryenginepete (talk) 00:12, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Yes, reading the Constitution, it says "The house has the sole power of impeachment".  Nixinova   T   C   00:13, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Meaning exclusive power, not boot power. The Senate has the power to boot. The USFWS controls the sole fish. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:35, December 24, 2019 (UTC)

You're quoting the Heritage Foundation, and I'm the one letting opinions get in the way of facts? Please don't waste my time with this nonsense and please learn about how Wikipedia works before diving into the deep end. - MrX 🖋 00:27, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

MrX SO you're saying the Senate never dismissed an impeachment resolution from the House in 1797? Because that was the history I cited from the Heritage Foundation, which is also found here on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States and here in the sources cited for that article as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States#cite_note-SenateJ1798-16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States#cite_note-18 Rotaryenginepete (talk) 00:39, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Nixinova And just like any other House Resolution, the Senate has the sole power to try that impeachment and if necessary dismiss it. So if the articles are withheld indefinitely, then the impeachment remains incomplete. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 00:39, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Nobody can try an impeachment until it already exists. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:42, December 24, 2019 (UTC)

InedibleHulk Exactly. They can't get this fact through their thick skulls, and so Wikipedia remains an biased un-citeworthy source. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 00:46, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Wikipedia is certainly un-citeworthy, as Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Wikipedia presents the sources for people to review for themselves. 331dot (talk) 01:12, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

So then why is the Wikipedia policy being ignored here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Facts_precede_opinionsRotaryenginepete (talk) 01:15, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

It already exists. The Senate just hasn't tried it. I'm implying you're dense. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:55, December 24, 2019 (UTC)

InedibleHulk lol but there's the small inconvenient fact that the Senate CANNOT try the impeachment yet, because it does not exist as a resolution that can be tried by the Senate. That won't happen until it has been brought/delivered by the House to the Senate. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 01:12, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Aye, has not been tried. But neither has Nikolas Cruz. Still currently charged, which is like remaining impeached, but harsher. Both the defendant and the impeachment exist for a later trial, where their current status cannot change. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:32, December 24, 2019 (UTC)

Except an indictment/charges against Nikolas Cruz were issued with and await the action of the court. An indictment is similar to impeachment in that it shares the defining characteristic that the charges must be BROUGHT/ISSUED/DELIVERED/FILED. Indictment: A set of written criminal charges issued against a party, where a grand jury, under the guidance of a prosecutor, has found that sufficient evidence exists to justify trying the party for that crime. See what I am saying here?Rotaryenginepete (talk) 01:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I hear you repeatedly on that point, loud and clear. But you're fundamentally mistaken each time. What the Senate does or can not do with this House impeachment is irrelevant to its continued political effect as an actual untried thing. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:59, December 24, 2019 (UTC)

lol so you disagree that the impeachment process, by definition, means to BRING CHARGES AGAINST...and you disagree that the House hasn't BROUGHT CHARGES AGAINST yet. So what fundamental part of the "House hasn't completed the impeachment yet" don't you understand? Rotaryenginepete (talk) 02:10, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Trump watched or heard about the vote in the House, where the charges were brought. That counts as "arraignment", in spirit. Now his completed impeachment is merely awaiting delivery, like in two-step pregnancy. The first result is totally over, regardless of whether "the mother" (Nancy Pelosi) goes to a hospital near the end or "the baby" (his seat) stays or goes at the end. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:16, December 24, 2019 (UTC)

So the charges were brought, but awaiting delivery? Who's fundamentally contradicting now? The charges have only been drawn up and voted on, which all we have to look at are the fancy papers...not legally impeached yet. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 03:58, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Brought to the "cellar door" of this institution, awaiting its gentle rapping at the "attic window". Whole other level, dude. Impeachment is words on paper, never more. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:13, December 24, 2019 (UTC)

Yes, impeachment articles are words on paper. But impeached is a verb, not a noun (as cited above). It's a process. Thinking it is words on paper is fundamentally misunderstanding grammar. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 04:26, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The process is complete. It was completed when the vote occured, as that is the last step. From the drafting of articles, to the presentation, to the vote; that is the process. The process has ended, and it ended with Donald J Trump being impeached. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 04:32, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

OK, cite your source. Where does the Constitution layout your imaginary steps, and say the vote "is the last step" of impeachment? Because Article 1, Section 3, Clause 6 says The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. If the impeachment is completed, then the Senate should have been able to start the trial today...but that didn't happen. It didn't happen and it won't happen until the impeachment process is completed, so according to the Constitution, you're wrong.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 04:50, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Multiple sources describe the exact same procedure. History.com has a good one on it. So does CBS. And ABC. NY Times even has a timeline on this. Washington Post too. I could go on and on and list many more sources and news articles, but they all have one essential thing in common. They all say something along the lines of "For the House, passage of impeachment articles would require only a simple majority of the chamber. If even just one article passes, the president has been impeached." If you can link and explain a source that tells me the impeachment has not occured yet and can properly explain why, please do. If (for whatever reason) you want me to list more sources, please open a topic on my talk page; I would love to make a bulleted list. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 05:09, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Did you miss the original source, Harvard Constitutional scholar and impeachment trial witness Noah Feldman? Here it is again https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-12-19/trump-impeachment-delay-could-be-serious-problem-for-democrats “If the House does not communicate its impeachment to the Senate, it hasn’t actually impeached the president. If the articles are not transmitted, Trump could legitimately say that he wasn’t truly impeached at all,” Mr. Feldman wrote for Bloomberg. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 05:45, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

That is Noah Feldman's opinion, it is not fact. Not to mention that this article is in the OPINION section. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 05:57, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

So the articles you dropped aren't the opinions of those media journalists who wrote them, but blatant facts? Rotaryenginepete (talk) 06:10, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Correct. A timeline with matching times is reliable. If you can point out something that is an opinion (not a fact) in my citations, please let me know. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 06:35, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

In your ABC source, direct quote: "If the Senate fails to convict, a president is considered impeached but is not removed, as was the case with both Clinton in 1998 and Andrew Johnson in 1868." Isn't this implying the Senate must actually try the impeachment? That's what I have been saying...Rotaryenginepete (talk) 15:58, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Additionally, the sources conflict in the stated number of past presidents who have faced impeachment proceedings. NYT says 3, while CBS says 2. This means there is opinion in play, because they don't agree on the facts/steps of impeachment.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 16:04, 24 December 2019 (UTC) — Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Then you should be calling up every media outlet around the world to tell them that they are all wrong and ask them to issue retractions that say impeachment is not "official" until it is walked across the capitol building. The House has the 'sole power of impeachment' but that doesn't seem to matter to you. 331dot (talk) 01:16, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

The media is biased, there's no use in referencing them for factual content. But you're still missing what I put down. Look at the historical precedent. The 1868 Senate Impeachment rules and the instance where the Senate dismissed the impeachment in 1797 both hinge on a critical detail. I'm not saying the House doesn't have the sole power to impeach, I'm saying they haven't completed/fulfilled that power yet. The House must have brought the impeachment to the Senate, a.k.a. filed the charges with the court. Until that happens this impeachment resolution is nothing more than symbolic...and does not meet the legal definition of impeachment. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 01:33, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Please don't bring up the "fake news" argument. If you can point out bias in the source, please document it in your arguments instead of saying "nope, biased news.". I can assert to you that your failure to do so helps no one. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 02:56, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

That would be great advice for the person who originally accused my cited sources of being biased. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 03:54, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

He said your source was unreliable because it was this Wikipedia article that we are discussing. See WP:WINRS. All of the rebuttals I can see to your sources are well-documented and explained as far as I can make sense of. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 04:03, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

MrX claimed that tidbit of history from the Constitution article on the Heritage Foundation website, which is reflected in NUMEROUS other historical sources, was wasting his time...maybe not because it has to do with opinions, but because historical facts and precedent easily prove all of you wrong for calling this impeachment a done deal. The entire point of my sources was to illustrate the impeachment process cannot proceed without the articles of impeachment being transmitted to the Senate. This is equivalent to an incomplete process, and furthermore the House has NOT BROUGHT CHARGES YET. Not legally impeached. He is only impeached in your opinions.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 04:22, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I'm not going to speak for MrX, but please cite the source (other than bloomberg) that says "impeachment process cannot proceed without the articles of impeachment being transmitted to the Senate.", as you said. I cannot find it, and I cannot find proper and reliable instances of you writing it down either. Please put it down here definitively. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 06:03, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the House still has sole power to impeach and set their own procedural rules. But, under current Senate rules, if they do not transmit the articles then the entire impeachment process remains incomplete...and it is legally defined as a process. Now I understand that the Senate Impeachment rules do not trump the Constitution, but the Constitution is silent regarding procedural details of impeachment...so what do we reference to define the steps of the impeachment process? It has to be a combination of House rules and Senate rules. We already know how the House set their rules...but nobody is talking about the Senate rules here, as if they aren't Constitutionally relevant. The ones I cited/provided previously were from 1868...but the new rules are largely unchanged from then. These updated rules contain the procedural details regarding transmitting the articles of impeachment and requirements for proceeding with impeachment... https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-RIDDICK-1992/pdf/GPO-RIDDICK-1992-69.pdf Approved articles of impeachment that remain dorment/unpassed to the Senate are going to be symbolic at best, until those charges are actually BROUGHT to the place of impeachment trial. Currently, the situation is no different than a prosecutor drawing up charges and then waving them in front of the courthouse claiming he has charged a defendant...even though he hasn't formally presented those charges to the court. However this is technically a bluff by the Speaker, because the only way around this would be if the Senate changed their impeachment rules to remove the requirement of transmission...exercising their Constitutional sole power to try an impeachment. If that happens, and the Senate rules are changed, then it would be like the judge snatching the charges from that prosecutor...the impeachment process would be allowed to proceed and you could say Trump was impeached.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 06:51, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Okay. But nothing in that PDF says the impeachment is incomplete or unfinished until that happens. Even the House's own website says "three Presidents [...], and Donald J. Trump in 2019], [...] have also been impeached.", under "The Use of Impeachment". The House says he is impeached, 755's resolution is that he is impeached, and since the House has sole power over impeachment, that is how it is. If the house says he is impeached, that is fact, as it is written confidence of sole power. Because of sole power, House overrides Senate here. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 07:28, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

The House has also made allegations in the articles of impeachment, but that doesn't make those facts or convictions. The Senate also has sole power, so the only way for the House to interrupt the sole power of the Senate is to play on a technicality of an incomplete impeachment process. Yes, that lawyer is still waiving his papers saying he filed charges, but the judge is still empty handed.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 07:36, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Please point to which charges in the article(s) of impeachment are not fact. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 08:36, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

The charge on Abuse of Power, alleges no statutory violation nor offers any factual evidence of a crime...the violation is purely subjective. The charge on Obstruction of Congress is also subjective and alleges no statutory violation, where the House is simply claiming that Trump's defiance of their subpoenas was unlawful...but that is assuming they have the lawful power to do so in the first place. The SCOTUS taking Trump's lawsuit over financial record subpoenas proves that this Congressional subpoena power is limited. While the alleged actions may be factual, none of the alleged violations in these impeachment articles are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) 09:29, 24 December 2019 (UTC) — Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

1) He abused power by telling Ukraine to announce investigations into Biden through a proven false conspiracy theory. He used his presidential status to try to hurt one of his political opponents. When it didn't work out, he revoked aid to them. 2) How would a subpoena be unlawful? Trump refused to comply with an order by Congress. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 09:39, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Again, everything you said, 1) and 2) is subjective opinion, assumption, and allegation only. Not a shred of it is documented facts, or you'd be able to cite sources. What President Trump actually said (documented fact https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/25/trump-ukraine-phone-call-transcript-text-pdf-1510770) "I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General. Rudy very much knows what's happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that. The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me." A subpoena can be unlawful if enforcement is attempted outside of jurisdiction. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 15:10, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Impeachment is the charge. Trial is the trying of those charges. Impeachment is seperate from Trial. Please direct me to the exact quote that says the Senate has sole power/say/ending/what have you on Impeachment, as you said: "The Senate has the sole and final say on impeachment". This contradicts the Constitution, which says the House has sole power. The Senate TRIES the charges. The charges (impeachment) part is over. We are currently waiting for the transition to Trial. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 00:52, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

WhoAteMyButter The articles of impeachment are the charges from the House, but those charges haven't been brought yet. Impeachment, by the legal definition previously cited, is a two stage process which may include a trial, but most importantly it means that the charges have bveen presented/brought to the place of impeachment (the Senate). That has not happened yet. You did not read the cited Senate Impeachment Rules March 2, 1868. Prior to the trial the House impeachment managers must bring the impeachment before the Senate, who must decide whether to hold a trial or not. This is why the President requested a trial, because the Senate can also dismiss an impeachment resolution. Although it is not necessarily required, the trial is most definitely part of the impeachment, as quoted in the Constitution Article I, Section 3, Clause 6 says "The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments."Rotaryenginepete (talk) 01:08, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

You said [sic] "charges have bveen presented/brought to the place of impeachment". The place of impeachment is the House'; as evident in the "House has sole power" part of the U.S. Constitution. The Constitution overrides whatever a dictionary says. You also said that "House impeachment managers must bring the impeachment before the Senate, who must decide whether to hold a trial or not". This is correct, but you contradict yourself here. How can the managers bring impeachment to the Senate, if the "impeachment never existed", as you commonly put it? WhoAteMyButter (talk) 02:48, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes I made a typo mistake, it should be "the place of impeachment trial is the Senate", per the Constitution. The act of House managers bringing the impeachment to the Senate is exactly what defines impeachment (bringing the charges). Just because you disagree with the legal dictionary doesn't mean the Constitution "overrides" that definition. You're going to need something better than that strawman argument to prove your point. Show me where the Constitution defines impeachment as only being a House vote. The sole Power of Impeachment clause does not define impeachment, it defines who has the authority to execute impeachment. What I am saying is the House has unfinished business, and until that business is finished it is not a legally defined impeachment. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 03:50, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Bringing the charges means presenting them to the House for a vote. The Consitution overrides a dictionary because a dictionary has to cover all nations, and all cases. Plus, not all dictionaries agree on definitions. Each one is different. The Consitution is one and unified. The bringing of those impeachment charges to the Senate for trial is the beginning of the Trial, which must occur after Impeachment. Additionally, This is further supported by the fact you yourself said "place of impeachment trial", which means it's a trial on the impeachment. The impeachment already happened, the Trial is next. Again, Impeachment and Trial are seperate but related. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 04:48, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

No, bringing charges is NOT drawing up nor approving charges by a House vote. Once again, the Constitution does not back you up here. In fact it rebuts your statements. Article 1, Section 3, Clause 6 says The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. If the impeachment was completed, then the Senate could start the trial...but that has not happened. It won't happen until the impeachment process is completed. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 04:58, 24 December 2019 (UTC) — Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The Senate has not started Trial yet because Pelosi has not sent over the articles. Whether she sent them or not, he is still impeached. The articles being given is part of Trial. Also, because the Senate isn't even in session yet. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 06:18, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

If a lawyer draws up a lawsuit (just as the House drew and approved an impeachment resolution) but never BRINGS/ISSUES/DELIVERS/FILES the suit to a court (the Senate), then can that lawyer say the defendant has been sued (impeached)? This is the exact principal I am trying to convey here. The President cannot be served with impeachment (or declared impeached) because the impeachment process remains incomplete until the charges are brought. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 01:51, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Sorry, still no. You are incorrect about the definitions. Impeachment is the forming of charges and agreeing that those charges "check out". Yes, the trial takes place in the Senate, but that is the trial. You cannot have a trial if the charge(s) (impeachment) doesn't exist. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 02:43, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, still yes. So finally admitting you disagree with the legal definition of impeachment? The charges aren't brought yet. You also cannot have an impeachment trial if the impeachment charges remain un-filed or un-submitted to the court which with they are supposed to be tried in. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 03:39, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Please do not put words in my mouth if I did not say them. The definition of impeachment can be boiled down to "to charge with a crime or misdemeanor". You are correct in that the Trial cannot begin if the charges did not pass, or have not been submitted yet, but that is Trial. That is not impeachment. The reason the Trial has not begun yet is because Pelosi has not given them over to the Senate for trial. Impeachment already happened. Pelosi's next step is to submit the impeachment articles to the Senate. Trial is next. The Senate then judges if the impeachment consitutes the removal. If anything comes out of this, I want you to know that I note this about you: you keep confusing impeachment and trial and assuming the trial is part of the impeachment itself. It is not. It comes after. Trial occurs only to judge the impeachment and determine if the impeachment is enough for the removal. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 04:59, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I understand it is difficult to grasp, but the biggest problem is you've repeatedly tried to define impeachment in your own words...without source...to back your argument. Your definitions conflict with the already cited legal definitions and procedures laid out in the Constitution, so I didn't put words in your mouth by saying you admittedly disagree with the legal definition because your words say otherwise. Then you tried to shoot this down with a strawman argument about impeachment vs trial, but that isn't what I am arguing here. I am saying that BECAUSE there cannot be a trial yet, the impeachment process isn't completed. If the Senate has sole power to try an impeachment, but they cannot try it yet, then this cannot be a completed and legally defined impeachment. Once Pelosi has brought the charges to the Senate, then Trump will be impeached. Not a moment before that. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 05:32, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. As you said: "specifically: to charge (a public official) before a competent tribunal with misconduct in office", I believe the competent tribunal is to be the House. Also, I cannot find any source that says that for impeachment to be fully completed, a trial must take place; please cite that. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 05:51, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't believe I said a trial must take place to complete the process, but a vote to impeach does formally advance the impeachment process and require a trial. From the previously cited https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/impeachment "Impeachment is conducted in two stages. Impeachment proceedings begin in the House of Representatives (art. I, sec. 2). This stage satisfies the Framers' belief that impeachment should be a public inquiry into charges against an official, and it involves fact-finding at hearings. After accumulating all the evidence, the House votes on whether or not to impeach. A vote against impeachment ends the process. A vote to impeach formally advances the process to its second stage through what is called adoption of the Articles of Impeachment. Each article is a formal charge with conviction on any one article being sufficient for removal. The case is then sent to the Senate, which organizes the matter for trial (art. I, sec. 3)." The case hasn't been sent yet...Rotaryenginepete (talk) 07:07, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

...but your source doesn't say that it needs to be. Nor does literally any reliable source. Until reliable sources start retracting reportage that impeachment has occurred, please WP:DROPTHESTICK. WMSR (talk) 07:12, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

As mentioned in my other response, we have to go off of the House and Senate rules for impeachment. Also, from https://www.legislativeprocedure.com/blog/2019/4/8/a-primer-on-impeachment-procedures-in-the-house "What Happens Next? Upon adoption of articles of impeachment, the House will adopt resolutions appointing managers, authorizing those managers to prepare for and conduct a Senate trial and to notify the Senate of the adoption of the articles of impeachment and the appointment of the managers. During the Senate trial, the House managers present evidence and arguments subject to the procedures adopted by the Senate." This also hasn't happened yet, the House hasn't completed their job on impeachment. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 07:15, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

First off, that's a blog, not WP:RS. But let's put that aside. Your source does not explicitly state that "in order to be impeached, the House must transmit articles to the Senate." You are arriving at that conclusion through your own analysis. Meanwhile, myriad reliable sources have directly and succinctly reported that the President has been impeached. It's as simple as that. You can come up with as many theories as you want, but the standard for inclusion is reporting from reliable sources, and your claim does not meet that standard. WMSR (talk) 07:23, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes it is a blog, but it is based on the Senate and House impeachment rules. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-RIDDICK-1992/pdf/GPO-RIDDICK-1992-69.pdf https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-resolution/660/text The Constitution implies there must be a trial, by the sole power clause. How can the Senate have sole Constitutional power to try an impeachment, but that power is being be withheld by the House? It is because the Speaker has taken advantage of both the current House and Senate rules of impeachment, using technicalities to suspend progression...so by not completing the impeachment according to these rules they are in effect not completing the impeachment process. That's why the Senate can't commence the trial yet, because until the articles get transmitted it's an impeachment fake out.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 07:29, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

That is you talking, not the source. You need reliable sources that explicitly make your claim. WMSR (talk) 07:31, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

ok, I will gather more sources.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 08:06, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

in the meantime, Noah Feldman's newer follow on article provides several more historical sources and precedents (not just opinions) https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-12-22/trump-impeachment-why-can-t-the-senate-start-a-trial-now Rotaryenginepete (talk) 08:28, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

That's still just their opinion and not an official finding- which as already noted, can only be from the House itself. If Trump sues to have the impeachment declared invalid because it has not been walked across the capitol building and placed in Senator McConnell's hand, he can do that. He would lose(and that's if it even got that far, since the Senate is not in session to accept any paperwork and Speaker Pelosi can't do anything yet anyway). 331dot (talk) 08:31, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Do I need to unpack the links to his sources here? Did anyone even read these articles? He backs his opinions with historical documents which detail the basis of his argument, and even a judicial ruling And as Whittington also points out, the Oklahoma Supreme Court held in 1923 that impeachment is official “when articles of impeachment are duly filed with the Senate and duly accepted and filed by the Senate.” https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/HMAN-112/pdf/HMAN-112-jeffersonman.pdf Rotaryenginepete (talk) 09:04, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

And if you get Trump to sue and get SCOTUS to hear and resolve this case before January 6th, I wish you luck. Until then, we go with what reliable sources state. You are, of course, free to disagree with just about every media outlet in the world. 331dot (talk) 09:11, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

He doesn't need to sue, nor does he want to since he already asked for a trial, but how is this even relevant? Rotaryenginepete (talk) 09:34, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

In order to establish the opinions of those you are citing as an official finding, there needs to be a lawsuit to do so(which only Trump would have standing to file). Until then, it is just their unsolicited opinion. I think that the horse died long ago. 331dot (talk) 09:48, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

No, you can't dismiss him nor his sources that easily. The Senate and House impeachment rules, historical documents, and lower judicial rulings cited back what he is saying. A majority media consensus of opinions saying he is "impeached" doesn't suddenly make it a fact...although tempting, the media isn't a reliable source for legal definitions.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 14:29, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Yes, this is not a place to get legal definitions or nitpick over stuff like he's not impeached because a paper was not walked across the Capitol building. What we do here is summarize what independent sources state. If that's not what you are into, I'm sure there are legal websites or journals for what you want to do. 331dot (talk) 15:03, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars I can't find anywhere that says this isn't a place to get legal definitions, especially with reference to such a major historical event. My requested edits are in the spirit of neutrality, not nitpicking the details. They are formed to avoid the appearance of bias to those who do nitpick the details. I agree you are seeking to find consensus, but the consensus of media headlines does not constitute fact nor does it reflect what everyone actually believes. The consensus of other editors on this page User:MugwumpSpirit110, User:MoMoBig, User:Sonar1313, User:50.37.100.51, User:Jacket2018, User:Xenagoras, User:50.37.112.189, User:Partytemple, and User:StanTheMan0131 who have individually disagreed with the content have also been shot down. This is not in the spirit of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources "making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered".Rotaryenginepete (talk) 15:33, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

This is still going on? What a waste of everybody's time. There is consensus in reliable sources that Trump has been impeached. That does not require unanimity of opinion. The articles will be sent at some point(yes, I know about WP:CRYSTAL concerns) making this whole academic exercise pointless. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:00, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

It's not about consensus in sources, it is about the NEUTRALITY PILLAR and making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered. You cannot say if the articles will be sent because you cannot predict the future.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 16:09, 24 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Headlines are not written by the author of an article but by another person that aims at generating maximum advertising effect for the article. Therefore Wiki editors are discouraged to use headlines as source. See also the discussion and RfC on this topic Xenagoras (talk) 18:42, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Xenagoras Exactly. The strongest argument here is "but mah headlines all say impeached". Rotaryenginepete (talk) 06:05, 26 December 2019 (UTC)— Rotaryenginepete (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Is it at all possible to add a section about the impeachment being in a possible “limbo” so to speak where we mention that sources such as the mainstream media and some legal scholars are conflicted as to whether or not Trump is impeached? This is no longer a “flat earth” type conspiracy. This relates to differing opinions from reputable sources be it legal scholars, Fox News, or CNN. Both claims have merit and until everyone can agree on it, in the name of neutrality, please show both sides of the argument. While a poor analogy, one could write an article on the Civil War and mention Confederate States and all the evils of slavery but never mention state rights, the actual cause of the Civil War (yes, slavery was part of it). By ignoring one side, we get a biased POV, which is not a neutral reporting stance. While WP will always be somewhat unreliable, we should try to make it as reliable as possible. Even a subsection hidden somewhere in the controversies would be fine to just mention the “not yet technically impeached” POV. Jacket2018 (talk) 04:41, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

RE: Removal of Source Content

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User:David O. Johnson Per Wikipedia on using sources of nymag: "There is no consensus on whether it is generally reliable for contentious statements."

Contentious = causing or likely to cause an argument; controversial.

Wikipedia has this page marked as controversial. There WAS an expected trial but not anymore. Wikipedia wants the most accurate, unbiased up to date content possible.

Please read Wikipedias Facts Before Opinions page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Facts_precede_opinions

As of right now, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has not, and does not currently know if or when she will, send the articles to the Senate for a trial.

The way is was written before my edit was very misinforming. It clearly gives the impression that a trial is going to happen, but we just don't know the exact date yet. No one knows if the trial will happen, if it will be sent to the Senate, etc.

Finally, concealment is intentionally withholding information to make a situation look different then it actually is.

EXAMPLE: Ask yourself - does the Senate (the members of Congress who would hold the trial) expect a trial in January? Do members of the House? Some think no, some think yes, and some think maybe... this is an OPINION.

Now ask yourself - Has there been a delay from the house of representatives to send in the articles? Yes - this is a FACT.

In order to comply with Wikipedias Facts Before Opinions policy we have to make changes. Factual information prevents ignorance, and as contributors to Wikipedia we have to uphold the integrity of Wikipedia - even if you don't like the facts. --StanTheMan0131 (talk) 01:55, 23 December 2019 (UTC)— StanTheMan0131 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

There is no evidence managers won't be called and the articles won't be sent early 2020. How is the current statement of expected to be sent in 2020 a problem? I can't find sources that point to managers and the articles never being sent. All point to just a delay. If you look at the section "Importance of Withholding for an article?" in this talk page the only thing I could see as possibly being contentious at the moment is the date of impeachment. --50.37.112.189 (talk) 03:17, 23 December 2019 (UTC)— 50.37.112.189 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

User:50.37.112.189 Because it is an opinion that is factually not true. In fact the New York Times, which is also a highly verified and reliable source per Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#The_Nation ), is saying in a newer article that a trial is doubtful and even Democratic members who voted to impeach in the House are saying they shouldn't send it over: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/us/politics/impeachment-trump-senate-trial.html

Additionally, the source originally cited for the expected to be sent in January 2020 was also before Nancy Pelosi said she would refuse to send them in.

Again - Keeping Wikipedia up to date (with facts before opinions) is necessary. If you could point us to an recent article, that isn't original research, showing plans to submit the articles in 2020 that would be appreciated. --StanTheMan0131 (talk) 05:31, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

At no point has she declared a refusal to ever send the articles to the Senate. Anyway, she currently can't because they're in recess. And do you have a reliable source that asserts that the articles will never be sent to the Senate? WMSR (talk) 07:40, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

User:WMSR Could you please show me where I said that the articles will never be sent to the Senate? Probably not, as I never made that claim. I will again clarify the situation in question-

The Wikipedia page says 'Trial in the Senate expected to begin in January 2020' which is not based on any kind of fact. Take in the following hypothetical questions...

Is there going to be a trial in January 2020? Noone knows yet Is there going to be a trial at all? Noone knows yet

Based on the information above... noone is sure what is going to happen, therefore the statement 'Trial in the Senate expected to begin in January 2020' is not a fact, but an OPINION.

What we know as FACT:

Have the articles of impeachment been sent in? No. Has Nancy Pelosi said she will hold onto the articles as long as necessary without giving a time frame? Yes.

Please read this article from CNN (a Wikipedia approved reliable source) literally titled 'Nancy Pelosi won't commit to sending articles of impeachment to Senate': https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/18/politics/nancy-pelosi-sending-impeachment-articles-senate/index.html

Quote from Nadler: 'When asked Thursday morning if the articles should be held forever, Nadler told CNN, "I would doubt that. Beyond that, I don't know.' As per Pelosi: 'Pelosi said Wednesday night that House Democrats will make the decision 'as a group" on when to send the articles to the Senate.'

If you would - please tell me why you think 'Trial in the Senate expected to begin in January 2020' should be on this page at this time? --StanTheMan0131 (talk) 12:48, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Stan, please stop bolding parts of your comments. We can hear you just fine in regular type. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:51, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree with MelanieN on usage of bold font. Bold font should be used very sparingly and only to make it easier to find the most important part inside a very long text and if the emphasized part is much more important than the rest. You could use italic font to emphasize important parts of text as I did here. Personally I use italics mainly to separate direct quotes from my own text and rarely to put emphasis on text parts. Xenagoras (talk) 02:58, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: See the RfC below. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:48, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

User:Xenagoras Objection overruled. By using the bold text in such a dynamic way I am not only appearing to be more cool, but it keeps the reader engaged as well so they can feel the emotion and continued interest in reading my posts. --StanTheMan0131 (talk) 04:35, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

User:MelanieN Never. It makes me feel cool/more important. Furthermore - bold text is visual, not audible. --StanTheMan0131 (talk) 18:11, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

User:StanTheMan0131Thanks for that, and thanks for the bold it makes easier reading. Unfortunately, the moderators of this article won't budge from their opinion based stances...perhaps we should create and moderate a separate instance based on facts only.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 00:54, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

User:Rotartenginepete I apprecaite it as being bold commands authority. And yeah I honest to God think that it makes them look ignorant. Some articles you can get away with throwing in your two cents and there will be people who think it is a fact. However this is such a unique and special case. Unfortunately I could definitely see most people who come across this page thinking "Yeah Wikipedia is leaning left real hard". It's almost like they think that by editing the page to say what they want to be true, that by some magic it will happen (psst it wont). What they don't understand is that by making Wikipedia look super biased they're actually hurting the the political party they are supporting, as readers can see through their ludicrous attempts to misinform them. Furthermore, I'm down to take part in any activity where I could help spread facts. Ah, politics.--StanTheMan0131 (talk) 04:28, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, is something being proposed here? Otherwise, this is WP:NOTAFORUM and you would be encourage to take your discussion elsewhere. WMSR (talk) 06:38, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

User:WMSR Request denied. N The proposal of this section of the talk page is to replace all moderator opinions on the article with facts. Anything being discussed under this proposal can be for thoughts, asking questions, and raising concerns. (see WP:Policy and Guidelines) I'm concerned that if we don't replace all biased opinions with facts, readers who view the article will be deterred by Wikipedia as a whole. --StanTheMan0131 (talk) 22:02, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC on Situation

In regards to improving accuracy of the current situation - should the 'Situation' section of this page's infobox be changed from "Impeached by the House of Representatives. Trial in the Senate expected to begin in January 2020" to "Impeached by the House of Representatives. Trial date in Senate not set."?

Source for current live edit (last updated December 18, 2019): http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/impeachment-hearing-schedule-how-to-watch-house-testimony.html

See 'Latest on Impeachment' (last updated December 23rd, 2019): https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-impeachment-12-23-2019/index.html --StanTheMan0131 (talk) 13:45, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

• Yes that would probably be best per WP:CRYSTAL, although the existing wording is accurate according to most sources. I am not aware of any factual reporting that suggests that the Senate trial is expected to occur later than January 2020. - MrX 🖋 14:45, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
• Yes That is more accurate and would be an improvement. BTW I don't think there is any need for a formal RfC on this. If there is agreement after a day or two I think we can close the RfC and simply do it. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:41, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
• Yes — Maile (talk) 16:46, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
• Yes Pelosi said she will name impeachment managers and transmit the articles to the Senate when the Senate can come to a bipartisan agreement on President Donald Trump’s impeachment trial procedures like they did 20 years ago when President Bill Clinton was impeached. This is clearly an undefined date. [13] Xenagoras (talk) 03:08, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
• Yes to me, this gives off even less undertone. WhoAteMyButter (talk) 07:41, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
• That's an improvement, but still incomplete. I would say something along the lines of "Impeached by the House. Articles of Impeachment not yet transmitted to the Senate." That said, saying "trial expected to begin in January" is clearly false, so that shouldn't remain.Adoring nanny (talk) 00:11, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
• Impeached by the House. Articles of Impeachment not yet transmitted to the Senate. - do the Adoring nanny suggestion. Situation should state the situation rather than a speculation, though I'd suggest even more to state the actual events of "Impeachement approved by the House on date xxx, Articles of Impeachment held." Cheers Markbassett (talk) 17:05, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
• Impeached by the House, not yet tried by Senate is more concise and will be accurate also when a date is set. Text suggested by RFC ("Trial date in Senate not set") is also an improvement. MozeTak (talk) 21:03, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Delay sending articles

Someone had posted to WP:ERRORS whether it is accurate to say Trump "is impeached" versus the House "voted to impeach". While they cited an editorial, which is generally not considered a reliable source (WP:RSEDITORIAL), this New York Times article talks about the debate. I'll leave it to others whether mention is warranted in this article per WP:DUE or not.—Bagumba (talk) 11:04, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I would suggest you read the talk page, Bagumba. Long and short of it: this has been discussed ad nauseum, and is already settled. Thank you for brining this to our attention, though. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 19:02, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

@Symmachus Auxiliarus: My post was FYI; I did skim it before hand. It was otherwise TLDR, the orginal headings probably didn't represent where each conversation apparently went, and I didn't see any summarizing points. Not a complaints from me, that's just how things work. Anyways, I'm just the messenger. Happy New Year.—Bagumba (talk) 05:36, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Good point, Bagumba. Donald Trump has not been impeached, and the editors running the "In the news" section on the home page are making utter fools of themselves and further reinforcing the unreliability of Wikipedia as a source of information. Impeachment is not complete until the articles are transmitted to the United States Senate, and as of the posting of this comment, that has not yet happened, and for all we know, may never happen. — Quicksilver (Hydrargyrum)^{T @} 19:27, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

See the discussion above about this topic. We summarize what independent reliable sources state, and they all state he has been impeached. Opinions that it's not "official" until the paper is walked across the capitol building and placed in Mitch McConnell's hand are just that- opinions. 331dot (talk) 19:31, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

So prosecutor saying they are going to prosecute someone, but never files the paperwork the court counts as being prosecuted to you? A lot prosecutors will say they have charger pending or prosecution is pending in that case. Although the only problem I see is the date of impeachment of this with the article. --50.37.216.119 (talk) 03:23, 25 December 2019 (UTC)i — 50.37.216.119 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

They are not prosecutors until the terms of the trial are agreed to, and are technically referred to in that instance as "case managers". Besides, a trial for which several of the designated jurors have already indicated they are not impartial (which is clearly the stance of McConnell and several of his Republican colleagues) would be the actual sham part of this process. I get tired of having to repeat this. Here's a suggestion: before bringing up invalid arguments under any subject on this talk page or any others, why don't you make the effort to ensure your arguments have not already been addressed elsewhere? The purpose and intent of further discussion here is to dialogue about information which is new to the discussion, and if that is not the case, bringing up something repeatedly under several different discussions is essentially pointless. Also, if anyone involved in the discussion bothered to actually do the research before bringing up matters for discussion, it would cut out a lot of the need to repeatedly make the same points under multiple topics. Of course, that's nothing more and nothing less than my own opinion, based on my understanding of the way such discussions should work here on Wikipedia, which is only based on experience of around a dozen years of participating in such discussions as an editor here, so you can take or leave anything I or anyone else says as you prefer to do so. And it is also the right of anyone who cares to do so to waste time by bringing up the same arguments across multiple discussions on any talk page here on which they choose to do so. But if their concerns are addressed elsewhere on such pages, or similar pages here, there is always a point where such discussions become pointlessly rehashed ad nauseum, which is not, IMHO, a good usage of time. --Jgstokes (talk) 04:01, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

I meant prosecutor as kinda of analogy. Although you could say the house functions like a grand jury. --50.37.216.119 (talk) 06:22, 25 December 2019 (UTC)— 50.37.216.119 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Rename And Change The Trial Section

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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CHANGING THE TITLE OF THE 'TRIAL' SECTION

The "Trial" section should be changed to "Trial in the Senate".

A NEW INTRODUCTION IN THE 'TRIAL' SECTION

This is the current opening for the 'trial' section:

This section is NOT for general information about impeachment trials in the Senate. It is specifically for Donald Trumps (currently non-existing) impeachment trial. The absolute first thing a person should read are the words "Currently, a trial in the Senate has not been set." It is the only fact anyone knows. The current section contents are composed of little off-topic factoids about trials, with a twist of left wing fluff.

Seriously, the current content in this Wikipedia article is THE OPPOSITE of a neutral point of view. (Have you read Wikipedia's Bias Policy?) I'm concerned because it's honestly embarrassing and we will lose peoples faith in Wikipedia because of this article. This painting is tilting hard to the left and we need to re-center it. Just because the actual facts makes an editor angry does not mean they should violate Wikipedia's NPOV requirements.

--StanTheMan0131 (talk) 06:04, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Would someone just give a temporary block for this annoying formatting? He has been kindly been asked to stop from multiple editors and has already clearly stated he is WP:NOTHERE 71.136.189.245 (talk) 07:39, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

References

User:71.136.189.245 Hello, my friend. I am here to build a article with a neutral point of view. Could you please elaborate on how I am not trying to do that? Further, I personally do not think I should be removed because I have a different style. You should be accepting of others who differ from you. Oh, and I see where you forgot to mention the gentleman on that same topic discussion who said he liked my style.--StanTheMan0131 (talk) 08:17, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

What you are doing is purely disruptive and I have a pretty good idea that an account created on 12/23 who quotes wikipedia policy in their first edit and has a supporter who's account is a SPA and was created on 12/21 is very fishy. At the very least, StanTheMan0131 is not your first account and is unlikely to be your only account. Knock it off. 71.136.189.245 (talk) 03:42, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

@71.136.189.24: Sir, I'm going to have to ask that you calm down right now. There is no need for such hostility in a place like this. Go on now, and if you need any advice just send me a message. Thank you for your cooperation. --StanTheMan0131 (talk) 05:12, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit Request for Neutrality, to Resolve the Appearance of Bias

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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JUSTIFICATION

Colloquially speaking, yes President Trump has been impeached by vote in the U.S. House of Representatives. Immediately after the House vote approving articles of impeachment was held, the vast majority of media outlet headlines declared him impeached. These media outlets are currently deemed by the editors who control editing on this page as reliable, authoritative sources. However, in an effort to influence the resulting Senate impeachment trial, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announced that she was withholding the transmission of those articles to the Senate.

This move is unprecedented, and runs counter to the standard flow of other Constitutional processes such as the passage of House Resolution bills to the Senate. Article I, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution gives sole power of impeachment to the House, while Section 3 gives sole power to try that impeachment to the Senate. So how can the House exert influence on a power given solely to the Senate? By withholding the articles of impeachment, the entire impeachment process is being interrupted.

There is now question as to whether transmission of these articles to the Senate is the last procedural step required to formally solidify the official impeachment of President Trump. Initially, Noah Feldman was the only Constitutional expert publicly recognized by media outlets as holding that historical precedent requires the articles of impeachment are officially transmitted to the Senate, and until that happens President Trump is not technically impeached. As he backed his stance with lower judicial rulings from OK and FL which required transmission of impeachment articles to the Senate in order to make impeachment official, in his explanation for why can't the Senate start a trial now?, other experts began to join in on both sides of the ensuing debate. Keith E. Whittington of Reason.com added to this discussion with a series of articles in The Volokh Conspiracy editorial, discussing When Is an Officer Impeached? I, II, III, IV Additionally, another stance has also developed in the view that if the articles are not transmitted to the Senate, then the courts could decide if the impeachment is official..

Many of the same sources that headlined "Trump Impeached" have also reported (some grudgingly) that there is or may be technical validity to Noah Feldman's point:

David Montanaro, Fox News Trump is not actually impeached yet, lawyer who testified for Democrats says

Andrew Feinberg, The Independent Trump's lawyers could argue he has not been impeached despite historic vote

Zachary B. Wolf, CNN A technical argument is Trump's new line of attack

Brooke Singman, Fox News Dems' own witness says Trump not truly impeached unless articles go to Senate

Bart Jansen and Ledyard King, USA TODAY Is Trump impeached?

Ben Tracy, Grace Segers, CBS News Is Donald Trump Impeached? White House considers arguing no because articles of impeachment not delivered to Senate

Bob Fredericks, New York Post Trump may not be impeached if Pelosi declines to send articles to Senate: Harvard professor

Adam Liptak, New York Times A Law Professor’s Provocative Argument: Trump Has Not Yet Been Impeached

Andrew C. McCarthy, National Review If Impeachment Articles Are Not Delivered, Did Impeachment Happen?

The "Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view" pillar of Wikipedia's Five Pillars states that "We strive for articles in an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight with respect to their prominence." This means that the content of this article should not be based on the consensus of media outlets alone. The view that Trump is not technically impeached yet is admittedly a minority view that is not as prominent compared to the headlines which say he is impeached, but the cited acknowledgement from media outlets means it is far from a "fringe" view. Reliable sources states that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered." Defining those sources, it also states that "... we publish the opinions only of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves." Since many of the cited authors above lend credibility or at least acknowledgement to Noah Feldman's published view on the technical status of President Trump's impeachment, this view should not be excluded or censored from the article because it gives the appearance of bias toward the view that Trump is officially impeached.

My previous edit request was only partially acknowledged/fulfilled, due to the argument that I hadn't offered enough reliable sources to justify the change on impeachment status. In the spirit of Wikipedia:NPOV, I have created this new edit request to hopefully satisfy both the views which see that "the sky is blue or the sky is red" by acknowledging the factual impeachment vote but avoiding the arguable claim that the impeachment process is officially completed.

Rotaryenginepete (talk) 21:49, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

EDIT REQUEST

PLEASE CHANGE THE FOLLOWING CONTENT

The impeachment of Donald Trump, the 45th president of the United States, occurred on December 18, 2019, when the House of Representatives approved articles of impeachment on charges of abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.[a] The president's impeachment came after a formal House inquiry found that he had solicited foreign interference in the 2020 U.S. presidential election to help his re-election bid, and then obstructed the inquiry itself by telling his administration officials to ignore subpoenas for documents and testimony. The inquiry reported that Trump withheld military aid[b] and an invitation to the White House to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in order to influence Ukraine to announce an investigation of Trump's political rival, Joe Biden, and to promote a discredited CrowdStrike conspiracy theory[5] that Ukraine, not Russia, was behind interference in the 2016 presidential election.

Donald Trump is the third U.S. president to face a Senate impeachment trial, after Andrew Johnson in 1868 and Bill Clinton in 1999.

TO READ

Articles of impeachment against Donald Trump, the 45th president of the United States, were approved on December 18, 2019 by the U.S. House of Representatives. He is charged with abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.[a] The impeachment approval votes came after a formal House inquiry found that he had solicited foreign interference in the 2020 U.S. presidential election to help his re-election bid, and then obstructed the inquiry itself by telling his administration officials to ignore subpoenas for documents and testimony. The inquiry reported that Trump withheld military aid[b] and an invitation to the White House to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in order to influence Ukraine to announce an investigation of Trump's political rival, Joe Biden, and to promote a discredited CrowdStrike conspiracy theory[5] that Ukraine, not Russia, was behind interference in the 2016 presidential election.

If the House transmits the articles of impeachment to the Senate, then Donald Trump would be the third U.S. president to face a Senate impeachment trial, following Andrew Johnson in 1868 and Bill Clinton in 1999.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 21:41, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

The last presidents to face impeachment trials were Andrew Johnson in 1868 and Bill Clinton in 1999. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 01:01, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

As you may be aware, there is speculation and controversy as to what the House of Representatives will do. Since Wikipedia is a Neutral Point of View website (NPOV), nor does it attempt to predict the future, your proposal warrants change. Furthermore, the word 'charged' seems like loaded language which could further inject bias. I suggest the following as a replacement to your proposal:

Articles of impeachment against Donald Trump, the 45th president of the United States, were approved on December 18, 2019 by the U.S. House of Representatives. He is charged with abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.[a] The impeachment approval Change this to "While speculation surrounds the specifics of formal impeachment, if the House of Representatives transmits the articles to the Senate he will face accusations of"StanTheMan0131 (talk) 23:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

StanTheMan0131 The reasoning behind this wording is due to the rejection of my previous request, which included very similar wording to what you have proposed here. In order to satisfy the Wikipedia:Facts precede opinions where some see the President as impeached and some do not, we need to include information which supports both sides of the argument. The articles of impeachment are charges, and they were approved by a House vote...however those charges have not been brought to the Senate yet. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 00:35, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

StanTheMan0131My strategy here is to remain neutral by not claiming that Trump is or isn't impeached, nor mentioning the debate. Just laying out the facts as they are.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 00:53, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

After the House transmits the articles of impeachment to the Senate, Donald Trump will be the third U.S. president to face a Senate impeachment trial, following This needs to be fully removed. Using phrases like "After the House transmits, Donald Trump will be" is predicting the future, and is not possible. --StanTheMan0131 (talk) 23:53, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

StanTheMan0131 I agree use of the words "after" and "will" is predicting. I have changed these to "If" and "would", and because the remaining information is not biased I removed my proposed replacement.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 00:35, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - That wording is very awkward, and inaccurate. The articles of impeachment were not "approved" in the commonly understood meaning of the word approved. The last sentence seems to be designed to plant seeds of doubt in our readers' minds. - MrX 🖋 00:49, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

MrX The wording currently says "approved"...so you agree with me that the current wording is very awkward and inaccurate, and needs to be updated?Rotaryenginepete (talk) 00:56, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

MrX I updated the last sentence to remove any seeds of doubt or predictions.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 01:04, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

@Rotaryenginepete: The word approved/approval is bad, but you used it twice. You also used more words and made the paragraph and sentence more passive. I don't understand why you think that's better.- MrX 🖋 01:26, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

MrX I agree. Swapped out the "approval" for "votes". I made it more passive on purpose, because of the reasoning in my justification. My strategy here is to remain neutral by not claiming that Trump is or isn't impeached, nor mentioning the debate. Just laying out the facts as they are. I am open to any input and will change my proposal as necessary to achieve this NPOV goal.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 01:34, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

The consensus is that the preponderance of sources have reported that Trump has been impeached. You should know this because you started a previous discussion in which this was patiently explained in detail. - MrX 🖋 03:18, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

My justification explains why the consensus/preponderance of the sources is irrelevant here. Reliable sources states that "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered. The sources I provided establish a minority view that Trump is not technically impeached, so until the debate is settled by actual events the content of this article needs to reflect that the minority view exists and remain neutral in that respect.Rotaryenginepete (talk) 04:32, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - House Resolution 755 adopted on December 18, 2019 impeaches President Donald J. Trump for high crimes and misdemeanors. It has been voted on and agreed to in the House. What happens next deals with the trial. Teammm ^talk
  _email 01:51, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Teammm Unfortunately your opinion nor my opinion matters here, as I already cited the Wikipedia policy states "... we publish the opinions only of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves." Please contribute feedback that contains a valid reason for opposing. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 02:04, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

RotaryEnginePete - Well, my valid reason would be that you're attempting to give undue weight to an opinion article by one man that has been regurgitated by some media for sensationalism and used by the Trump administration as a defense claim of not being impeached "yet". No other reliable source has stated that the Constitution says anything about the transmission of already adopted articles of impeachment to the Senate as a precursor to the House fulfilling its sole power of impeachment. If anything should be changed, it's the one word, "occurred" in the first sentence to "initiated" as to be consistent with the other articles on impeached presidents. Teammm ^talk
_email 11:59, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose 2600:1702:2340:9470:D9B6:AF80:CDAB:A80C (talk) 03:37, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
• Strong oppose - I cannot overstate how utterly dead this horse is. WMSR (talk) 04:57, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Comment WMSR, Muboshgu, InedibleHulk Should we take Rotaryenginepete to ANI? It's clear their editing is disruptive. David O. Johnson (talk) 05:26, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Have them do a checkuser with StanTheMan0131 while they are at it. Check their histories, definitely someone's socks. 71.136.189.245 (talk) 05:45, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking. I already gave a level 4 warning. WMSR (talk) 06:35, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I had a feeling that, even if I provided numerous sources like you wanted, you'd still oppose. Still haven't seen anyone on here other than MrX oppose with a real reason. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 05:06, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Comment David O. JohnsonIt's also a clear trend that opposing opinions are consistently labeled "disruptive" throughout this talk page. I've done nothing but try to communicate my opinions here, list sources, and have even stated that I want to work with editors to make my proposal better. Please take me to the admins. I haven't violated any policies, and I'd love for them to see the suppression going on here. Rotaryenginepete (talk) 05:46, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose – Wikipedia should reflect what the most mainstream sources say, not the tit bits here and there in opinion pieces. Mentioning Trump's/his admin's response to the impeachment is okay (ie. him not seeing it as a legitimate 'impeachment' because articles haven't been sent to the Senate), but it's rather silly to base an article's lead/or focal point on Trump's response, as opposed to what a majority of the sources say. Also, Rotaryenginepete you only do your cause a disservice by bludgeoning the process. Best to just drop it. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 12:25, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

MelbourneStar I appreciate the constructive feedback. But it's clearly not just Trump's view, as the provided sources show. Many scholars also hold the same view as is documented in reliable sources, therefore a minority view is established. It may appear that I am bludgeoning, but my goal here is to pick up and satisfy the arguments from these other edit requests which were quickly shot down for the same non-policy related reasons: Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#Nancy_Pelosi_Says_Articles_of_Impeachment_May_Not_Be_Sent_to_the_Senate, Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#Impeachment_did_not_actually_occur_yet, Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#Biased_claims_and_citations, Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_21_December_2019, Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#Importance_of_Withholding_for_This_article?, Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#RE:_Removal_of_Source_Content, Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_23_December_2019, Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#RfC_on_Situation, Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#Delay_sending_articles, Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#Rename_And_Change_The_Trial_SectionRotaryenginepete (talk) 14:54, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose an amusing "what-if" picked up by a few sources as a type of man bites dog does not affect the reality of the matter, which is that mainstream, reliably-sourced media speak of this current president being the 3rd to be impeached. Not maybe impeached, not kind of impeached, not almost impeached. The believe that he genuinely has not been is not a "significant minority view", it is fringe. Zaathras (talk) 15:19, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
• Would someone please close this per snowball clause ? - MrX 🖋 16:06, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Partisan Impeachment is a Political Vendetta and not legit

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Seems the Impeachment of Donald Trump wiki article might be lacking this aspect.

Whip Steve Scalise blasted House Democrats for pursuing their unprecedented, partisan impeachment as a political vendetta in an attempt to overturn the results of the 2016 election.

https://scalise.house.gov/media/press-releases/impeachment-political-vendetta - 174.158.168.175 (talk) 23:43, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia. We don't use information from press releases by partisan politicians.- MrX 🖋 23:53, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

If so, then why is a partisan Impeachment being documented in a wiki article? Seems by your logic this whole Impeachment of Donald Trump wiki article is not encyclopedic. 174.158.168.175 (talk) 00:04, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Get over yourself. According to a few different sources, some of which have been released today, regardless of how you categorize what happened in the House (which was only partisan because Republican representatives preferred loyalty to the President over doing their constitutional duty), when it comes to a Senate trial, more moderate Senate Republicans (including Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins and Mitt Romney have signalled their willingness to break ranks with Mitch McConnell and actually examine the evidence in an impartial manner, which they are bound by oath to do when they are sworn in as jurors for the Senate trials. And McConnell has stated point-blank he is not intending to be an impartial juror, which is a violation of the oath they will be constitutionally-mandated to take. And all arguments of the kind which started this topic have been rehashed over and over again ad nauseum. I am getting a little tired of having to have this same argument across multiple topics here. The sources that meet Wikipedia's neutral point of view regulations note that it was only partisan because so many Republicans preferred loyalty to Trump over an impartial examination of the facts. If you can't handle that POV, then by all means, find a source that, according to Wikipedia's reliability and NPOV standards indicate the truth of your statement. Otherwise, you (and everyone else making the same ridiculous claims and arguments ad nauseum) need to back away from further participation in the discussion of these matters, since you can't be bothered to either accept the consensus or read the previous topics that have covered the issues ad nauseum. Enough is enough. --Jgstokes (talk) 00:44, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Democrats intend to spend the next five years impeaching Trump. Over. And. Over. Again.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Here might be a new section to discuss and add to the wiki article Impeachment of Donald Trump. As stated and reported on, Rep. Al Green (D-TX), who has long pushed for impeaching the president, told C-SPAN that there was "no limit" to the number of times that Democrats could impeach the president. allegedly, “A president can be impeached more than once,” per Green and "no limit to the number of times" Democrats will try to impeach.

https://thewashingtonsentinel.com/democrats-say-theyll-impeach-trump-all-over-again-even-if-hes-re-elected/

Democratic Rep. Veronica Escobar (D-TX) warned against allowing American voters to decide who should be president, arguing that they should be stopped from choosing Donald Trump as their POTUS in 2020.

Democratic Rep. Karen Bass claims president is "owned 100 percent by the Russians". Bass claimed that Trump’s victory in 2020 would provide more evidence to impeach him. Democrat Rep. Karen Bass told TMZ that her party will push to impeach Trump again if he wins 2020.

https://newsthud.com/democrat-rep-house-will-impeach-trump-again-if-he-wins-in-2020/ 74.76.202.168 (talk) 14:15, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

impeached?

The article currently reflects a common understanding that inasmuch as the Congressional articles read "is impeached," after passage this is so; that said, the handful of times various states' highest courts issued decisions regarding the matter, their conclusions have been it occurs at the bar, even if figuratively, of the trying body. Inasmuch as legal precedents consistently inform the latter and but common presumptions do the former, WP ought give more weight to both interpretations than currently.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:36, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

The article currently says Trump has questioned the validity of the impeachment, citing Noah Feldman, who argues that the impeachment has technically not taken place until the articles are handed to the Senate. That, along with the footnote in the lead,→÷ weight seems appropriate to me. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:23, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

State court rulings do not apply at the national level. This issue has been addressed ad nauseum above. WMSR (talk) 20:27, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

How so? Please do post a diff to where this specific issue is discussed above.

Per Feldman[14] (taking his job as "explain[ing] what the U.S. Constitution actually means no matter who likes it"), "[Oklahoma[15] &] Florida law doesn’t control, of course, but [e.g] the Florida court went through all the sources (at pp. 675-78 here[16]; tip of the hat to Prof. Keith Whittington of Princeton University for unearthing[17] [18] it)." [The Florida Supremes conclude]:

It thus appears by ample precedent and authority, that an impeachment is not simply the adoption of a resolution declaring that a party be impeached, but that it is the actual announcement and declaration of impeachment by the House through its committee at the bar of the Senate, to the Senate, that it does thereby impeach the officer accused, which proceeding is at once recognized by the Senate.

--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:48, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

And Jonathan Turley, the Republican impeachment expert, calls the notion that Trump hasn't been impeached bunk.[19] – Muboshgu (talk) 20:50, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

User:Muboshgu, perhaps terming turley "the GOP impeachment expert" might mislead some tkpg readers (WaMonthly[20]: "[turley] did not vote for the president and that he has previously voted for Presidents Bill Clinton and Barack Obama [plus...] in 2015, Turley criticized candidate Trump’s proposed Muslim ban as unconstitutional in the Washington Post")--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:00, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Hodgdon's secret garden, House Republicans got to call one expert witness, and they called Turley. Hence, "the GOP impeachment expert" is perfectly acceptable. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:32, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

user:Muboshgu, okay fair enough however I was just noting that turley's politics hv bn eg 'liberal' enough to hv voted for Nader & 'libertarian' enough to hv brought Sister Wives' cast members' suit against utah w rgd the states' anti-bigamy laws &tc (the cato I.'s gene healy[21] observes "Turley’s politics, it seems to me, have always been heterodox and hard to squeeze into a conventional left-right framework. If forced to guess, I’d say his growing skepticism toward impeachment has more to do with his 2010 experience as defense counsel in a judicial impeachment trial than any latent #MAGA tendencies")--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:11, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

And I don't need to provide a diff saying that the laws of one jurisdiction don't apply everywhere. Scroll up if you want to read discussions on whether the President has been impeached. You have provided no new evidence, and this constant back-and-forth is getting tiresome. Come back when you have a reliable source that explicitly reports, as a fact, that the President has not been impeached. WMSR (talk) 21:02, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

• @Hodgdon's secret garden: This is not a proper RfC. There is no proposal or question. - MrX 🖋 21:14, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

  user:Hodgdon's secret garden This has been discussed already. here: Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#Impeachment_did_not_actually_occur_yet and here: Talk:Impeachment_of_Donald_Trump#Third_or_Fourth_President_to_be_Impeached. I don't see why you think this discussion will be any different. This is a waste of everyone's time, to be frank.David O. Johnson (talk) 21:24, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Not to mention, one of the sources you just cited says right there "Florida law doesn't control," e.g. has no bearing on federal procedures...Persistent Corvid (talk) 23:49, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Right you are, bird. Same deal for Arizona, California, Texas, North Dakota and Maine. I hear New York can still get things done (somehow), but for the most part, federal, state and municipal authorities literally and intentionally play by their own rules. InedibleHulk (talk) 08:25, December 28, 2019 (UTC)

What exactly are you asking for, in this Rfc? GoodDay (talk) 17:40, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Hodgdon's secret garden you make interesting points. Unfortunately, the legacy media outlets - the so called "reliable sources", democrats and even some wiki editors seem bent on labeling Donald Trump as "impeached" and some even revel in it. Keep up the effort! You are onto something, but maybe take your ideas to Conservapedia. You will be welcome there... 174.158.83.150 (talk) 18:17, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

IMO Mr. Trump's unfortunate agreement with prof. Feldman's analysis, relegated to a footnote, seems more like Wikipedia's official 'voice' seeking to thereby discredit the position rather than to account for these varying views in as neutral of a manner as possible. (After all, unlike Barack, the Donald never was senior lecturer a of US Constitutional law at the Univ. of Chicago....) Sure, maybe the cows haven't yet come home w rgd to whether its been determined, legally speaking, whether what's apparently a more innovative meaning of 'impeachment' as a state arrived at, similar to one's being the subject of an indictment, is correct or else if only its apparently more trad. meaning is, as its being a dynamic process such as say one's being subjected to an actual prosecution. But surely, could not the wording of the article reflect more of the nuances involved than currently?--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 18:40, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Again, what are you proposing to be put into this article? GoodDay (talk) 18:49, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

GoodDay, these 2 diffs: [22] & [23] --Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:04, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

user:WMSR, as to the existance of such a view, here are a few sources:

1. NYT[24]
2. jonathanturley.org[25]: "[Noah] Feldman has written in Bloomberg News that Trump is not actually impeached until the articles of impeachment are transferred to the Senate. I disagree and believe that Feldman is conflating provisions concerning removal with those for impeachment."
3. WaPo[26]: "
4. Mediaite[27]
5. CNN[28] "...Noah Feldman, who had testified before the Judiciary Committee as an expert witness that President Trump should be impeached and removed from office, responded to the decision to delay delivering the Articles of Impeachment with a bombshell op-ed of his own: Transmittal of the Articles to the Senate is part of the act of impeachment, he argued, and until that occurs the president has not been impeached. As Feldman concisely put it, 'Impeachment as contemplated by the Constitution does not consist merely of the vote by the House, but of the process of sending the articles to the Senate for trial' so the Senate can conduct a trial."
6. CBS News[29]: "[Noah] Feldman was one of the legal experts called by Democrats to testify before the House Judiciary Committee earlier this month and has advocated for Mr. Trump's impeachment and removal from office. 'Impeachment as contemplated by the Constitution does not consist merely of the vote by the House, but of the process of sending the articles to the Senate for trial,' Feldman wrote in Bloomberg. 'Both parts are necessary to make an impeachment under the Constitution: The House must actually send the articles and send managers to the Senate to prosecute the impeachment. And the Senate must actually hold a trial.'"
   --Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:59, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Hodgdon's secret garden, again, we know that this is Noah Feldman's view, reliable source media outlets have covered it, and it is duly included in the article. So what are we talking about here? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:45, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Nobody is disputing that Feldman has that view. And certainly it deserves to be mentioned. But every source you listed all serve to make the same point: that Feldman has that view. Reliable sources have all reported that Donald Trump has been impeached. Full stop. Mr. Feldman's opinion is certainly notable, but still constitutes a fringe view, especially given that reliable sources have only reported that he holds such a view, not that such a view has gained widespread acceptance. I've said it before and I'll say it again: come back when reliable sources explicitly report that the President has not been impeached. WMSR (talk) 20:48, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Agreed..this is ridiculous 2600:1702:2340:9470:8C71:2604:397D:9C5E (talk) 04:59, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

The belief that the president has not actually been impeached is a nugget from the fringe of politics. This is beyond silly. Zaathras (talk) 18:05, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Hodgdon's secret garden Unfortunately, the legacy "news" media outlets - the so called "reliable sources" will NEVER report that. Every Wikipedia editor knows that and that is why it is always a fallback position. 174.158.83.150 (talk) 02:34, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

==Biased Article This article is extremely biased and consequently runs against the values of Wikipedia. I would strongly recommend a collaborative effort to remove all politically biased statements from this article to preserve the integrity of the entire wikipedia community. 173.88.23.106 (talk) 19:06, 30 December 2019 (UTC)