Talk:United States

Frequently asked questions

Q1. How did the article get the way it is?

Detailed discussions which led to the current consensus can be found in the archives of Talk:United States. Several topical talk archives are identified in the infobox to the right. A complete list of talk archives can be found at the top of the Talk:United States page.

Q2. Why is the article's name "United States" and not "United States of America"?

Isn't United States of America the official name of the U.S.? I would think that United States should redirect to United States of America, not vice versa as is the current case.

This has been discussed many times. Please review the summary points below and the discussion archived at the Talk:United States/Name page. The most major discussion showed a lack of consensus to either change the name or leave it as the same, so the name was kept as "United States".

If, after reading the following summary points and all the discussion, you wish to ask a question or contribute your opinion to the discussion, then please do so at Talk:United States. The only way that we can be sure of ongoing consensus is if people contribute.

Reasons and counterpoints for the article title of "United States":

• "United States" is in compliance with the Wikipedia "Naming conventions (common names)" guideline portion of the Wikipedia naming conventions policy. The guideline expresses a preference for the most commonly used name, and "United States" is the most commonly used name for the country in television programs (particularly news), newspapers, magazines, books, and legal documents, including the Constitution of the United States.
  • Exceptions to guidelines are allowed.

• If we used "United States of America", then to be consistent we would have to rename all similar articles. For example, by renaming "United Kingdom" to "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" or Mexico to "United Mexican States".
  • Exceptions to guidelines are allowed. Articles are independent from one another. No rule says articles have to copy each other.
  • This argument would be valid only if "United States of America" was a particularly uncommon name for the country.

• Well-established encyclopedias in the English language appear to generally use a "common name" policy for article titles. More specifically, the following use "United States" for the title of the corresponding article: MSN Encarta, World Book, Encyclopedia Americana, Columbia, Grolier, and the Micropaedia and online versions of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. In our effort to make Wikipedia an "encyclopedia of the highest possible quality," (Jimmy Wales, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia", March 8, 2005, <wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org>) we would do well to emulate what these well-established encyclopedias do.
  • The Macropaedia version of Britannica uses "United States of America" for its article title.

• With the reliability, legitimacy, and reputation of all Wikimedia Foundation projects under constant attack, Wikipedia should not hand a weapon to its critics by deviating from the "common name" policy traditionally used by encyclopedias in the English-speaking world.
  • Wikipedia is supposed to be more than just another encyclopedia.

Reasons and counterpoints for the article title of "United States of America":

• It is the country's official name.
  • The country's name is not explicitly defined as such in the Constitution or in the law. The words "United States of America" only appear three times in the Constitution. "United States" appears 51 times by itself, including in the presidential oath or affirmation. The phrase "of America" is arguably just a prepositional phrase that describes the location of the United States and is not actually part of the country's name.

• The Articles of Confederation explicitly name the country "The United States of America" in article one. While this is no longer binding law, the articles provide clear intent of the founders of the nation to use the name "The United States of America."

• The whole purpose of the common naming convention is to ease access to the articles through search engines. For this purpose the article name "United States of America" is advantageous over "United States" because it contains the strings "United States of America" and "United States." In this regard, "The United States of America" would be even better as it contains the strings "United States," The United States," "United States of America," and "The United States of America."
  • The purpose of containing more strings is to increase exposure to Wikipedia articles by increasing search rank for more terms. Although "The United States of America" would give you four times more commonly used terms for the United States, the United States article on Wikipedia is already the first result in queries for United States of America, The United States of America, The United States, and of course United States.

Q3. Is the United States really the oldest constitutional republic in the world?

1. Isn't San Marino older?

Yes. San Marino was founded before the United States and did adopt its basic law on 8 October 1600. (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sm.html) Full democracy was attained there with various new electoral laws in the 20th century which augmented rather than amended the existing constitution.

2. How about Switzerland?

Yes, but not continuously. The first "constitution" within Switzerland is believed to be the Federal Charter of 1291 and most of modern Switzerland was republican by 1600. After Napoleon and a later civil war, the current constitution was adopted in 1848.

Many people in the United States are told it is the oldest republic and has the oldest constitution, however one must use a narrow definition of constitution. Within Wikipedia articles it may be appropriate to add a modifier such as "oldest continuous, federal ..." however it is more useful to explain the strength and influence of the US constitution and political system both domestically and globally. One must also be careful using the word "democratic" due to the limited franchise in early US history and better explain the pioneering expansion of the democractic system and subsequent influence.

The component states of the Swiss confederation were mostly oligarchies in the eighteenth century, however, being much more oligarchical than most of the United States, with the exceptions of Rhode Island, South Carolina, and Connecticut.

Q4. Why are the Speaker of the House and Chief Justice listed as leaders in the infobox? Shouldn't it just be the President and Vice President?

The President, Vice President, Speaker of The House of Representatives, and Chief Justice are stated within the United States Constitution as leaders of their respective branches of government. As the three branches of government are equal, all four leaders get mentioned under the "Government" heading in the infobox.

Q5. What is the motto of the United States?

There was no de jure motto of the United States until 1956, when "In God We Trust" was made such. Various other unofficial mottos existed before that, most notably "E Pluribus Unum". The debate continues on what "E Pluribus Unum"'s current status is (de facto motto, traditional motto, etc.) but it has been determined that it never was an official motto of the United States.

Q6. Is the U.S. really the world's largest economy?

The United States was the world's largest national economy from about 1880 and largest by nominal GDP from about 2014, when it surpassed the European Union. China has been larger by Purchasing Power Parity, since about 2016.

Q7. Isn't it incorrect to refer to it as "America" or its people as "American"?

In English, America (when not preceded by "North", "Central", or "South") almost always refers to the United States. The large super-continent is called the Americas.

Q8. Why isn't the treatment of Native Americans given more weight?

The article is written in summary style and the sections "Indigenous peoples" and "European colonization" summarize the situation.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 September 2023

The 2022 American Community Survey stated that the top reported ancestries in the United States were German 41.1M, English 31.4M, Irish 30.7M, American 17.8M, and Italian 16.0M. Add this to the demographics section in the population section.

Source: https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/acs#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20U.S.%20Census,1%2C%202022%2C%20population%20estimates.&text=The%202022%20American%20Community%20Survey,M%2C%20and%20Italian%2016.0M. 103.164.138.55 (talk) 00:23, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: Could not find the supplied information in the source. Please provide a more specific link that supports your proposed addition. Liu1126 (talk) 14:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Removal of Trail of Tears, Indian Removal Act, Foraker Act, Insular Cases, California genocide

In this edit, @KlayCax: removed quite a bit of US history. Does anyone support this removal? (I have reinstated the elements while discussion takes place.) -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 22:42, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

A lot of this in my opinion should be moved to the racism in the United States and race in the United States articles. We just don't have space for some of this in the article. I'd be okay with the Trial of Tears and Indian Removal Act remaining. Although it should be included in a sentence that includes "Indian Removal" more broadly. (e.g. "The United States government did X or Y to indigenous people through actions such as the Indian Removal Act...) KlayCax (talk) 01:09, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Could you explain why you want to delete the story of how Puerto Ricans gained citizenship just prior to World War I? Or why you think there is space for extensive adjective- and adverb-laden sentences about how "vibrant" and "vastly more religious" the US is in its "religion observation (sic)" than other countries, with "a growing number of Americans [...] the large majority of which (sic) have religion-like (sic) beliefs". There seems to be space for detailing the "condition of the American religious landscape in 2022" (as reported in a Wall Street Journal op-ed) being "more religious, and [where] religious institutions are thriving", but not for a sentence about the California Genocide or one about the history of the acquisition of Hawaii, or American Samoa or the Virgin Islands. I disagree with this overemphasis on op-eds at the expense of basic historical and geographic information. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 03:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

The issue is brevity. Maybe we could say something like, "The territories the U.S. acquired from Spain (the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Guam) and subsequent acquisitions were treated as colonies and U.S. citizenship was withheld from their inhabitants, although it has since been extended to inhabitants of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands." TFD (talk) 11:43, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

While I am a big fan of brevity, it is worth noting that the page Puerto Rican citizenship and nationality is messy, with the law granting citizenship abbreviated in a confusing way (cf. redirect from Jones Act), and buried in the middle of the sixth paragraph where it is misleadingly suggested that it was promulgated in the same year as the 1934 Nationality Act. (This is cleared up much later in the ninth paragraph.) The synthetic view presented on this page in one sentence is considerably briefer, though perhaps the word "statutory" should be added in front of citizenship. It is also worth noting that the logical daughter article mentioned above does not explain one of the underlying reasons for extending citizenship: the subsequent conscription of 20,000 Puerto Ricans.-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 12:38, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

The problem, as @TFD: also mentioned, is brevity.

Because of length requirements, we can't give an entire racial history of the United States within the article. (Race now makes up a majority of American history in the article. Compare this to Germany's or Japan's. Both of which are FA's.) It's excessive detail for the article to include the California Genocide. (Ethnic cleansing was also being committed in California before the California Gold Rush,.as well as elsewhere, so it seems WP: Undue if anything to specifically focus there.) Important aspects of American history, such as the Bank War, are presently entirely excluded. We need to make it concise. Japan's featured article is a good example of this. It doesn't go into the individual atrocities committed by the Empire of Japan, such as the Rape of Nanking or Unit 731. American history is so complex - and long - that we can't get into the nuances of citizenship or every action America took to acquire territories. (Unless it's truly exceptional.)

I haven't read the PR citizenship and nationality article. But it seems like a lot of this stuff could be transferred over. Events such as the Bank War, conflicts between the Whigs and Democrats, rise of religiosity, et al. also need to be included. Presently, these things have been entirely excluded from the article, or have been removed to make space for the above. KlayCax (talk) 16:42, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

The Bank War is of little interest to the casual reader of an encyclopedia article, and religiosity has a significant presence in the article already. Conflicts between the Whigs and Democrats don't need the party labels in the content because the casual reader isn't interested, and their respective major issues are given attention. Links can get the reader to more. On the other hand, racial history, politics and policy changes over the course of US history is important to note at each stage of development, because it is the one constant that continuously and consistently influenced all facets of US society in a way that no other single thing has and continues to do so to this day. Cumulatively, it has more influence over internal US affairs than any one other thing and has changed dramatically over the centuries. Other things have made huge impacts in their time, but nothing consistently pervades US internal affairs like that does. How the US has dealt with race has a huge impact on how the US currently deals with race in a way that no other nation experiences. It's not just in the past, it's the present, and it didn't just come out of nowhere, and it hasn't always been the same, but it has always been pervasive.  Shoreranger (talk) 20:29, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

@Shoreranger:. No one is saying that any of that isn't the case. I'm just saying that we should handle it in the way that Germany's, Japan's, et al.'s articles do. There was massive, massive issues in pre-Civil War America that weren't related to issues of race. The Bank War, the centralization of the Presidency and expansion of poor white voting under Jacksonian democracy, expanded technologies, et al. were all major issues as well. KlayCax (talk) 01:57, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, the United States would not exist as it does today without the Indian Removal Act, Trail of Tears, or other horrific acts of the US Government. The Indian Removal Act is far beyond racism, it is one of the fundamental building blocks of the country. It is a terrible part of history and American Indians deserve it to be known that this was their land and it was stolen under treaties the US government to this day do not honor, fraudulent purchases, and regulations like Andrew Jacksons Indian Removal Act. OnePercent (talk) 11:00, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Addition of extensive ref-quotes to Religion section

In this edit, @KlayCax: added lengthy ref-quotes to the religion section taken from the sub-page Religion in the United States. Does anyone think this level of detail is necessary in the main page on the US? (I have removed them pending discussion.) In related matters, does anyone think that the Mormons should be mentioned somewhere in the page? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 22:45, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I personally find refquotes useful and worthy when used properly, yet I do agree that the ones you removed are far too long to be useful. Good refquotes are long enough to supported the cited claim and no longer. And yes, I'm rather surprised that Mormonism isn't mentioned at all, being a US-originated religion with notable domestic impact and a decidedly global reach. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. Another thing that puzzles me is why the religion section is in demographics rather than culture and society. :) -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 01:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I am glad to see this section get some attention. I also find requotes useful but these were excessive. Mormonism, being one of the only religions to have developed entirely in the US that has a significant following, should be noted somehow. I'd also agree as has been mentioned that religion should be included under culture. Finally, it should be plain in whatever is written that "irreligious" is not at all the same as "atheist" or "agnostic". Shoreranger (talk) 20:39, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I see that @KlayCax: has restored their preferred version already without waiting for consensus to emerge. Could you explain what you mean by religion observation? Is this watching someone watching a televangelist on TV? I'm also curious why you think it a good idea to change from "religious beliefs" to "religion-like beliefs" as you did in your recent edit. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 01:30, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Hey, @SashiRolls:. The problem with the current wording is that it strongly implies that American religion is significantly declining, doesn't mention the exceptional religiosity of the United States, and gives the impression that most "nones" are believers in Atheism or Agnosticism, instead of individuals who mostly engage in religion-like behaviors and affirm the notion of a higher power.

The majority of sociologists and scholars of religion believe that identification with organized religion is declining in the United States. Yet they see measures of religiosity staying relatively stable or even increasing in some metrics. (As Ryan Burge says: "Belonging" doesn't mean the same thing as "belief") Gallup's description of Americans as having "low" confidence in religious institutions seems like a comparison to the past. If you actually look at the survey results, it shows that 36% have a "great deal" or "quite a lot of trust" in organized religious, 36% have "some", and "29%" have very little/none. There's multiple ways to interpret this. Yet 72% or more have at least a moderate level of trust in religious institutions.

I'd say it is somewhat subjective for the article to term this as Americans predominately having "low trust" in "organized religion" as a whole. In contrast, the updated wording more accurately reflects the American religious landscape.

Do you have any specific objections? Or are you okay with me updating the religious section for the time being? Thanks. KlayCax (talk) 16:48, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ramos1990: also had similar concerns to me. (If I recall correctly.)

Hope he doesn't mind a tag here. I prefer the updated wording from religion in the United States than the one in the United States article. KlayCax (talk) 16:51, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Propose new text and get consensus for inclusion. This way we can avoid the error-ridden stuff mentioned above. Should we be keeping the op-ed from the Baylor religious studies professors? I would vote no. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 16:54, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Something like this:

The First Amendment guarantees the free exercise of religion and forbids Congress from passing laws respecting its establishment. Religion in the United States is widespread, diverse, and vibrant, and the country is vastly more religious than any other comparable developed or industrialized polity. The overwhelming majority of Americans believe in a higher power and consider themselves spiritual. Most Americans pray daily, attend religious services, and consider religion important in their life. The country has the world's largest Christian population and a majority of Americans classify themselves as Christian.

Religious practice varies significantly by region. In the "Bible Belt", located within the Southern United States, evangelical Protestantism plays a significant role culturally. New England and the Western United States tend to be less fundamentalist. Mormonism—a Restorationist Christian movement started in New York during the 19th century—is the predominant religious affiliation in Utah. Around 6% of Americans claim a non-Christian faith. The United States either has the first or second-largest Jewish population in the world, the largest outside of Israel. "Ceremonial deism" is common in American culture. A growing number of Americans describe themselves as unaffiliated with organized religion — the large majority of which have religion-like beliefs and believe in a God — for disputed and unclear reasons. Trust of institutional organized religion has declined since the 1970s. Atheists and Agnostics constitute a small percentage of the population.

Would be vastly more in line with the academic literature on American religion. KlayCax (talk) 17:07, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I saw this text. Some of it is already in the article. Please indicate only those things which you wish to change. For example, I see you wish to change the current text New England and the Western United States tend to be less religious to "less fundamentalist" whereas the linked article (the unchurched belt) refers to "less religious" and "less church-going". I see you also want to make the sentence about the Jewish population longer. Without entering into the question of practicing and non-practicing, why do we need to say anything more than "the largest population outside of Israel" as it is currently written? Removing "vibrant" (clearly POV) large majority and "vastly" (ditto) will also cut down the unnecessary word-count. (concerning the claim, cf. e.g. Religion in Poland, Religion in Brazil, Religion in Saudi Arabia, etc.) The third to last sentence was more or less grammatical as found in the article (Around one-third of Americans describe themselves as unaffiliated with organized religion, atheist, or agnostic.) but your new version is definitely not. If the reasons are unclear and disputed there's no reason to mention them in a top-level article. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 17:51, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm also concerned about some of your changes to the daughter article, which I had a quick look at due to the discussion here. See especially Talk:Religion_in_the_United_States#Distorted_source. I noticed that the Baylor U. op-ed there was also not marked as an op-ed... -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 19:04, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I think the proposed wording is ok. It gets to the point and is pretty short. The sources used do support this material. And yes scholars of religion like Rodney Stark, Michael Hout, Ryan Burge do not argue for decline, but stability, transformation, or growth instead. Most of the "nones" are not irreligious, but instead they do retain belief in God and do participate in religious practices to some degree - [1]. Most are "somes" and only 6% do not believe, belong, or practice. Ramos1990 (talk) 23:43, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, @Ramos1990:. I think a lot of editors don't realize that an "American none" is often the same thing as a "European Christian" (e.g. cultural identification).

The United States is one of the most religious developed countries. Only newly industrialized, developed countries such as Poland or Romania come close. (Maybe Greece and Italy?) KlayCax (talk) 00:56, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

As an Australian apatheist (like, I believe, many of my countryfolk), it concerns me that there seems to be an expectation that all Americans have firm stances on religion. They must be either believers, atheists, or agnostics. Is it not possible that some hardly ever think about religion? HiLo48 (talk) 05:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

One article cited in the entry says: "Indeed, in several northeastern states, Christianity already looks like it does in Canada, where just over 50 percent of the population identifies as Christian" (source). The map at Unchurched Belt also shows that the Northwest tends to tend towards the apatheistic as well. It's curious that the entry does not currently present the key finding (Pew) that those under 50 are considerably less religious than their elders. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 07:28, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

People in the Unchurched Belt still have much higher rates of theism, et al. than people in Canada and Europe. 70-75% of people in Vermont, for instance, still believe in a God. KlayCax (talk) 16:50, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Recent reversion

Hey, @C.J. Griffin:. I noticed that you recently made a partial reversion of my proposed trim to the U.S. article. It's reliably sourced. However, I believe it lacks brevity.

The article doesn't need statistics for individual years. The longer trend is more important. I understand that's a lot of this is WP: Bold and makes substantive cuts to the article. However, I believe that the article would be better served with an expanded history section (Predominately in the pre-Civil War era. What Hath God Wrought would be a great resource here.) instead of WP: Trivia-like recitement of particular statistics. KlayCax (talk) 04:38, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

If we are talking about the increased suicides for 2022 then okay perhaps that can go, although it really doesn't add much bloat to the article. You also removed the entire paragraph on public expenditures for education and student debt, which is long-standing and certainly relevant. The JAMA study on cumulative poverty being the fourth leading risk factor for death annually is hardly trivia and seems significant enough to include in the health section, although I wouldn't mind a rewrite of the material if necessary.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 04:56, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Although it really doesn't add much bloat to the article... I wouldn't mind a rewrite of the material if necessary.

I understand. Apologies if there was any confusion. I think that a lot of this article needs rewritten. There's a lot of things — both good and bad — unique about the United States. I am under the belief it's harmful to the cohesiveness of the article to consistently compare the United States to other countries. Featured articles such as Germany, Japan, Canada, Madagascar, Japan, among others, don't do this for the reason that it generates a horrendous amount of bloat within articles. Like other editors have mentioned: an article like one of those should be where we roughly aim to land within the article. Article prose has significantly degraded in the past five years due to consistent edit warring within the article.

A complete rewrite would be a likely improvement.

You also removed the entire paragraph on public expenditures for education and student debt, which is long-standing and certainly relevant.

I understood that this is another WP: Bold edit that that would be disputed by editors. I'd be okay with it being reinstated - just shorter. Feel free to reinstate.

The JAMA study on cumulative poverty being the fourth leading risk factor for death annually is hardly trivia and seems significant enough to include in the health section, although I wouldn't mind a rewrite of the material if necessary

Similar to the religion debate on the article — sociologists have variously argue that observance is increasing, staying about the same but changing, and decreasing — it's a bold, sweeping claim that has been disputed by others in the academic literature. Unless there's a strong consensus on a subject we should probably exclude it from the article entirely. I don't disagree with the sentiment it's trying to get at, though. KlayCax (talk) 05:29, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay, so we found some common ground on the 2022 suicides (which I self reverted) and the paragraph on education, but I vehemently disagree with your characterization of the JAMA study and your position on its inclusion. You state that is has been "disputed by others in the academic literature", but this is not the case as far as I can tell. I've seen very little criticism of the paper, which is a landmark study, published in a prestigious journal, linking poverty and mortality. I also made sure to cite reliable, secondary sources on the topic to demonstrate its notability. Per WP:DUE, I would argue the material should stay. I mentioned rewriting it if necessary, although I think it is succinct and NPOV as is. I did not suggest a rewrite of the entire article.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 19:26, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Several conservative academics have disputed the numbers. That's why it's problematic. @C.J. Griffin:. It's only been cited 7 times in the literature.

My hunch is that it's right. I just don't think we can say so in Wikivoice. KlayCax (talk) 16:24, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I suggest you take this to RS/N. In the meantime, I'd have to imagine that the Journal of the American Medical Association is a reliable source for information about health. I notice you didn't attribute the source, but removed it entirely. You also have provided no sources for your claim. You can do that at RS/N. I support restoring the UPI source discussing the JAMA article. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 18:13, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. I propose the original version with attribution be restored:

Poverty is the 4th leading risk factor for premature death in the United States annually, according to a 2023 study published in JAMA.

--C.J. Griffin (talk) 03:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Religion section: en.wp reporting a Radiance Foundation-commissioned online survey

In this edit, @KlayCax: added a Deseret News article reporting the results of an online survey conducted on behalf of Skylight, "an initiative of the Radiance foundation". The article states: Skylight’s mission is to use technology to help young people embrace God-centered spiritual habits. Like the Deseret News, it’s part of Deseret Management Corporation. I do not believe this is a sufficiently impartial source to be used in the article. I also believe that targeted online surveys are generally to be taken with a couple pillars of salt. Other thoughts? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 06:42, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, I dropped a number from the diff. (fixed)-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 17:31, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Deseret is considered a reliable source. We handle it the same as the Christian Science Monitor. Good journalism despite its funding. This isn't a Epoch Times situation. KlayCax (talk) 16:23, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

If anybody else supports your addition we can ask at RS/N about the reliability of online surveys funded by the Radiance foundation. For the moment, after one workweek, nobody has supported it so we don't really need to bother anyone over there, imo -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 18:02, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I've also noted the addition of this online survey by the Radiance Foundation in Religion in the United States. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 11:01, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

2nd country with the most GDP?

many sources say that the United states of America has the most GDP, while on Wikipedia, it says that China is the richest country. 174.66.101.236 (talk) 16:12, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

?? List of countries by GDP (nominal) - List of countries by GDP (PPP). Moxy- 20:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I think you're confusing GDP with PPP. NocturnalDef (talk) 13:51, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Info box of when the U.S. was “formed”

Next to the Constitution part it says June 21, 1788 however the U.S. Constitution became effective on March 4, 1789. I understand that first date was when it was ratified but for the Articles of Confederation it lists the date when it became effective and not when it was ratified. MaxwellWinnie102 (talk) 18:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Moving "melting pot" and liberal democracy comparisons to the body

Hey, Rockstone. Let's get consensus on this. Both

As a melting pot of cultures and ethnicities, the U.S. has been drastically shaped by the world's largest immigrant population.

and:

It has higher levels of incarceration and inequality than most other liberal democracies, and is the only liberal democracy without universal healthcare.

Firstly, while the notion of the United States being "melting pot" has some support in the literature, it is not universally agreed upon. The article itself mentions that concepts such as the country being a "salad bowl" have also found support. One would tend to assume that per capita immigration would be more notable than total net immigration. Countries such as United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Kuwait, British Virgin Islands, Monaco, Liechenstein, et al. far surpass these totals per capita.

The second sentence also has immense problems.

• Using liberal democracy as a metric here is heavily problematic and presents many problems — 1.) Why are we using liberal democracy here instead of, say, a global comparison? (As is overwhelmingly done.) 2.) What are we classifying as a liberal democracy? Chile, Israel, Uruguay, and Turkey have all been to varying extents classified as such, and have higher levels of income inequality than the United States — the country is classified as "medium" Gini — but do not have it mentioned in their respective leads. While as a social democrat I personally believe that the United States should take more steps to reduce income inequality. There is overwhelming evidence (scroll down to see image) that it ranks just about average globally in this metric.

It would also seem to necessitate other lengthy, verbose statements in this article's (and others) lead. People could argue that: (and I'm not seriously suggesting this)

• The United States is the only Western, liberal democracy to recognize the death penalty in certain states and de jure federally. Because of this, it should be mentioned in the lead.
• Shouldn't countries such as Monaco, Canada, and New Zealand have it mentioned in their leads for having some of the highest housing prices among liberal democracies?
• Chile, Uruguay, and other nations are liberal democracies that have a higher Gini than the United States. This would seem to necessitate mention in their articles. Maintaining the status quo presents many problems.

Both sentences need to be moved to the body. KlayCax (talk) 13:12, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Fixed tag. @Rockstone35:. KlayCax (talk) 13:15, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

@KlayCax: I would suggest moving this to an RFC so it's not just the two of us. I will say that New Zealand's article lead mentions structural inequalities. Would you like me to make an RFC? -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 21:00, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

If a consensus can't be reached, yes. I've been trying to hold off a RFC as a last resort. If it comes to it: I'd be in favor. Thank you for making one if it comes to it! KlayCax (talk) 04:20, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

My opinion is:

• Subjective metrics for "low corruption" and "human rights" should be deleted totally from the lead. (More controversially, I hold this view for other country articles.)
• Totally deleting the WP: Peacock mention of the United States (almost certainly as a way to spin the country in a positive light) as a special sort of melting pot.
• Deleting the other, verbose (in the opposite direction) POV-push that compares the American "medium" Gini to exclusively liberal democracies — for no explicable reason — instead of other metrics.

RFC's are supposed to be a measure of last resort. If editors object to these changes then I'd be in favor of a RFC. To me: all of this changes seem common sense and dramatic improvements in the lead, @Rockstone35:.

I'll leave it up to you how you want to word it. (Or if you want to add anything else to the points I've stated.) KlayCax (talk) 04:57, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

I know RFCs are supposed to be a measure of last resort, but we've also had multiple discussion about what the lead should contain that haven't gone anywhere. It's been a long-term intractable problem with no easy answer because featured article countries such as Canada, Australia, and Japan list different things in their leads. (Australia, for example, mentions civil liberties, while Canada mentions government transparency, quality of life, and gender equality). I'm not sure what the solution is, which is why further input might be helpful. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 05:25, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

@Rockstone35:. Yeah, I'm aware of the inconsistency between articles. I agree with you. There should be a rough guideline for the leads of countries. (In my opinion.) I'm probably going to bypass RFC if no one objects to the three above proposed revisions — since RFC's are honestly a pain in the butt — but I think there should probably be a RFC about stylistic guidelines for the lead's of countries. (On the Wikiproject Country page.) KlayCax (talk) 23:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

if no one objects to the three above proposed revisions -- well, people ARE objecting to it. I don't think an RFC is that big of a deal. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 02:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay, let's start one. @RockStone35: Something among the lines of: "Should melting pot, universal healthcare, and inequality remain in the lead?".

You have my permission to reinstate my wording. (Although I recommend modifying it a bit. I won't mind.) Thanks! :) KlayCax (talk) 16:56, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

"Melting pot" is already in the body. The body has a comparison of incarceration compared to all other countries, and a comparison of inequality against other OECD countries. The body has a comparison of universal healthcare against developed countries. CMD (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. These are included in the lead per WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY. It makes no sense to move this material to the body given it already exists there.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 04:26, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Melting pot and liberal democracy both belong in the lead. Andre🚐 00:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

• @KlayCax: an RFC has been made. Thanks! --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 23:05, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  Could you explain the reasoning for removing all? Thanks, @Rockstone35:. I'm okay with you repeating what I said. KlayCax (talk) 23:08, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

  Well, I'm for retaining the lead as is, so you should probably be the one to do that... not me . The RFC is supposed to be worded as neutrally as possible. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 00:31, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Request for Comment: What should the lead mention regarding the United State's record?

Should the lead mention inequality, incarceration, human rights, low corruption, and the US as a "melting pot"? -- Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 23:05, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose all- Firstly, while the notion of the United States being "melting pot" has some support in the literature, it is not universally agreed upon.

The article itself mentions that concepts such as the country being a "salad bowl" have also found support. One would tend to assume that per capita immigration would be more notable than total net immigration. Countries such as United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Kuwait, British Virgin Islands, Monaco, Liechenstein, et al. far surpass these totals per capita. The other things also have immense problems and should be similarly removed.

• Using liberal democracy as a metric is heavily problematic and presents many problems

1.) Why are we using liberal democracy here instead of, say, a global comparison? (As is overwhelmingly done.)

2.) What are we classifying as a liberal democracy?

Chile, Israel, Uruguay, and Turkey have all been to varying extents classified as such, and have higher levels of income inequality than the United States — the country is classified as "medium" Gini — but do not have it mentioned in their respective leads. While as a social democrat I personally believe that the United States should take more steps to reduce income inequality. There is overwhelming evidence (scroll down to see image) that it ranks just about average globally in this metric. It would also seem to necessitate other lengthy, verbose statements in this article's (and others) lead. People could argue that: (and I'm not seriously suggesting this)

• The United States is the only Western, liberal democracy to recognize the death penalty in certain states and de jure federally. Because of this, it should be mentioned in the lead.
• Shouldn't countries such as Monaco, Canada, and New Zealand have it mentioned in their leads for having some of the highest housing prices among liberal democracies?
• Chile, Uruguay, and other nations are liberal democracies that have a higher Gini than the United States. This would seem to necessitate mention in their articles. Maintaining the status quo presents many problems.

For others:

• Human rights (and to a lesser extent corruption) are somewhat subjective and hard to define. I'm personally not in favor of these things being listed in many countries article's leads because of this.

The vast majority of this stuff is unneeded for the lead and comes across as editors attempting to make the U.S. look good/bad. Get rid of all of it. KlayCax (talk) 04:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Support inclusion as outlined at the last 2 RFC about this. Can drop liberal democracy as this tells readers nothing.Moxy- 23:24, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Include liberal democracy and melting pot these are key topics in any introductory middle school US history and politics textbook. A standard social studies topic area. "Salad bowl" can be contrasted as well with melting pot. Andre🚐 23:31, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Saying or liking to liberal democracy (or Western democracy for us old timers ) isn't very useful we should be saying what type of democracy it is. But in this case we should be saying developed countries. Moxy- 23:44, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per last RfC on this and WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 00:03, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support everything except inequality. I'm not convinced the US is truly more unequal than the average liberal democracy. The US's incarceration rate is only remarkable when contrasted to other liberal democracies (it is 6th in the world now), which is why the lead currently is comparing against other liberal democracies. --Rockstone^{Send me a message!} 00:34, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
• Premature RfC. Maybe, maybe not, it doesn't make sense to group these all together in one RfC, and the discussion has not even reached the point where anyone has brought forward any relevant sources (say a similar tertiary source on the United States) demonstrating due weight or lack of, or even made any decent reference to the body text to argue due weight or lack of. CMD (talk) 01:28, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose all. The lead should be the absolute broadest summary of American history, geography, and system of government, with maybe a little about American culture. We absolutely should not be sprinkling in details about specific issues. At best, they're undue. At worst, they're active attempts by editors to stick their own pet issues into the lead. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:26, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support per WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY and the significant emphasis on these things given in the sources, especially for inequality (which should probably have even more focus in the lead than it does now given the massive amount of focus it gets); however, corruption and human rights may require tweaks. All of these broad topics have focus and coverage in sources comparable to most other things already in the lead. Inequality in particular has, at a glance, the most coverage of all these things by a significant margin, so it ought to be included regardless of if people don't personally believe the US is more unequal than other nations. Regardless of how individuals feel about it, it has massive amounts of coverage in sources discussing the US as a whole and therefore deserves coverage here. Arguing about how the US compares to other nations (with the implicit statement that sources shouldn't give it the focus they do) is WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS thinking. And even beyond that, comparisons to other nations aren't even a policy-based criteria - we include stuff in the lead based on weight and focus in sources. If every nation has sources discussing inequality in the lead, then we would have sources discussing inequality in the lead for every nation, just like we do for eg. system of government and economy and other things that get major focus for every nation. The purpose of a lead isn't to be "fair" for an editor's personal notion of fairness but to reflect the balance and focus of the sources. However, academic coverage of corruption and human rights in the US rarely focuses on just "does better than other nations"; these are not untrue statements but they're not the main thrust of coverage, so we might want to tweak how we describe them. We may also want to tweak the melting pot sentence to "often described as..." or the like because while the descriptor is significant and WP:DUE for mention in the lead (and we have enough secondary sources about the term's usage that a general attribution like that wouldn't be WP:WEASEL; it is a frequently-used descriptor and is covered that way), it has a complex history and is not uncontroversial in its meaning. --Aquillion (talk) 02:54, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

  Concur. Shoreranger (talk) 13:25, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. (Summoned by bot). Considering WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY, I can see the following in the body:

• 3 sentences mentioning "inequality".
• 1 paragraph discussing incarceration or prisons.
• No mention of "human rights" outside the current lead, but discussion of various types of rights
• No mention of corruption outside the current lead.
• 1 sentence mentioning "melting pot"

There may be other mentions that have escaped my crude keyword search approach. If the above is an accurate survey of the body (and I'm not definitively saying it is), I'd say there could be a case for including the following in the lead: inequality and incarceration. The others, not so much.

This of course is all on the assumption that everything in the current body is covered with due weight.

More generally, I think we should take great care with any elements that represent current political issues. The United States is a big place with a lot of history, and the bar should be very high for including any aspect in a four-paragraph summary. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 09:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support: WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY and backed by RS. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 19:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Comment – The lead already contains the text: The U.S. ranks highly in international measures of quality of life, income and wealth, economic competitiveness, human rights, innovation, and education; it has low levels of perceived corruption. It has higher levels of incarceration and inequality than most other liberal democracies and is the only liberal democracy without universal healthcare. As a melting pot of cultures and ethnicities, the U.S. has been drastically shaped by the world's largest immigrant population. With appropriate linking. What is it that needs to be changed? Dhtwiki (talk) 03:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

A lot of editors (including me) have argued that all of these things should be removed from the article. Melting pot, human rights, and corruption mentions come across as pro-American POV pushing. Universal healthcare, incarceration, and inequality come across as the inverse. WP: Leadfollowsbody does not mean that everything in the body has to be included in the lead. (Particularly when it is subjective or controversial... such as human rights.) KlayCax (talk) 06:10, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose incarceration, low corruption, and "melting pot" because there are competing views on these topics. Support inequality but qualified according to the sources. Senorangel (talk) 03:20, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
• Support as to match what you would normally learn about the country [2].204.237.50.190 (talk) 12:27, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

Since I mentioned the massive number of sources that focus on these things in my rationale above, here's what I found going over them. This isn't exhaustive because anyone who glances at Google Scholar can find massive numbers of highly-cited papers about each and every one of these things. Note that all the papers below have received hundreds or even thousands of citations:

• Inequality has massive amounts of high-quality academic sources specifically discussing inequality in the United States from numerous angles; it could probably support a sentence in the lead all to itself.
• Incarceration also has a ton of coverage; not quite as much as inequality, but enough to support a mention in the lead.
• There is a lot of coverage of how the United States relates to human rights, but rarely just from the perspective of discussing the country's own human rights record, and more often in the context of discussing how either its limitations or how it affects US foreign policy. See eg.
• Sources on corruption are more sparse (still a lot, just not comparable to eg. inequality) and don't, at a glance, have a single unifying theme; most of them talk about the corruption that does exist rather than focusing on corruption in the US being low in absolute or relative terms. This isn't to say that the statement is untrue; the sources do support and mention it. But it doesn't instantly leap off a source search as a single unifying theme with massive academic coverage the way "the US has heavily-covered problems with inequality" or "the US has a massive amount of mass incarceration" do.
• The concept of the US as a melting pot has massive coverage, often as part of discussing both immigration and assimilation in the US; however, the term is treated as something with a complex and sometimes contested history in terms of its meaning, rather than as a simple statement of fact - we should cover it, but we might want to tweak our wording.

Obviously as mentioned there's a lot more; these are just the first few sources with hundreds of cites to them (and in the case of inequality in particular, most of those are in the thousands, and there were many, many many more.) --Aquillion (talk) 03:36, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Generally support those points, but I want to share my concern over the use of the term "melting pot" because it does not have a universally accepted definition, which may itself be argued to be intentional by some factions. On the other hand, if the amorphous nature of the definition is covered well enough in the Wiki article on it, so if it is linked that may allay some concerns, but not all. Shoreranger (talk) 13:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

References
References

For this sort of high-level article, and especially for the lead of this high-level article, sources on a specific topic do not provide a clear picture of due weight. We could probably find thousands of sources for every single item mentioned in the article. A better point of comparison would be similarly high-level coverage. The obvious comparison, Britannica, mentions diversity/immigration and economic inequality, but not the other topics under discussion (incarceration, human rights, corruption). Looking internally, an en.wiki-focused approach would be to consider the article body puts emphasis on, and seeing how best to summarize that in the WP:LEAD. CMD (talk) 04:10, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

High or low corruption can come and go depending on the government. It is usually not included in the long-term history of a country. Incarceration is discussed in a paragraph in the article body. The complicated context and reasons for it are not discussed. So I am not sure it should be picked out for the lead. Senorangel (talk) 01:56, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2023

Need to Edit this article and relevants --- immediately. 27.147.202.191 (talk) 08:56, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done. You need to be more specific. Bettering the Wiki (talk) 09:18, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Disposable income per capita in the lead

How much income is defined as disposable or discretionary can vary a lot across even developed countries. It also does not reflect inequality, if any. Total GDP or wealth should be sufficient here. Senorangel (talk) 03:20, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Race in the lead

The history of races, especially Blacks, in the United States is very unique and important compared to most other countries. But this is not mentioned at all. Senorangel (talk) 03:20, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 October 2023

Change "The ensuing American Civil War fought between 1861 and 1865 became deadliest military conflict in American history." to "The ensuing American Civil War fought between 1861 and 1865 became the deadliest military conflict in American history." HarriotLovesYou (talk) 19:10, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 19:25, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 October 2023

Under "Culture & Society" and under the "Mass media" section, the last paragraph's first sentence states that the United States has the second-largest gaming market by revenue. It hyperlinks to a Wikipedia page which has a table with countries and their respective gaming market revenue. However, the highest revenue gaming market is actually the United States. What is currently written may be outdated, and should be changed to represent this fact. Change it to:

The video game market of the United States is the world's first-largest by revenue. RedCat8881 (talk) 16:40, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

RedCat8881 (talk) 17:26, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Elli (talk | contribs) 18:05, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Should we remove the mention of the Space Race in the lead?

Should we remove this sentence: "They also competed in the Space Race, which culminated in the 1969 landing of Apollo 11, making the U.S. the only nation to land humans on the Moon."

The Space Race is the least significant event out of all mentioned in the paragraph and belongs to the Cold War anyways. It just feels off there. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 04:33, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Why do some editors seek to minimize a country's technological prowess? The Space Race, and the first humans on the Moon, placed America in the tech driver's seat. This was, and remains, a phenomenal achievement. Yes, it was also a signal event of the Cold War, but that only adds to its significance: Even amid the growing U.S. debacle in Vietnam, the country proved its economic and scientific superiority over its main adversaries. It still holds that advantage today. The passage is beyond relevant and should stay in the lead. 71.255.77.207 (talk) 17:03, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't want to do so. Technological improvement is important. Heck, I'm a space nerd too that made 2000 edits on SpaceX Starship. However, as much as I love space, I do think that it is geniunely not that significant in the most broadest view of U.S. history, because:

• JFK does not really care about space (source). He used the Space Race as a way to gain support for his presidency, and it likely does not really matter to him if the Moon landing actually happens or not. The Moon landing happens because of an interesting mix of "politicians need to flex their patriotism", "superpower needs to flex their power", "scientists want to go to the Moon and use this as an excuse to do so", etc.
• For manned space exploration, progress after Apollo has been horrid. The U.S. revert back to low Earth orbit capability with the Space Shuttle, even losing orbital capability from 2011 to 2019, and only recently humans would land back on the moon under the Artemis program at 2020s. This is a 50-year regression and further suggests that Apollo is not that significant in the history of space exploration.
• There are also other technological progress being made that the Cold War has a hidden deep reason, such as the discovery of Superheavy elements where there is a back and forth between American and Russian teams over who discovered which element first, verification of particles in the Standard Model where the U.S. discovered almost all of them, and so on. Giving the Space Race a mention in the lead while ignoring the rest is a bit unfair for me.

I hope you now understand why I made this argument. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 17:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

There was "regression," and I realize there is "other science", but the Moon landing was an example of the country's unique ability to challenge itself and compete with others in the face of very dangerous risks. There were disasters, as with the Challenger, but the only country to carry its citizens to a place other than Earth is the U.S., and that was 54 years ago. 71.255.77.207 (talk) 18:07, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

So do the Soviet Union. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 12:56, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

No country has taken on the expense and human risk in space that the U.S. has. None. This was a great American achievement. Calling it out as such in the lead, as a national achievement, is appropriate. 71.255.77.207 (talk) 19:14, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I think any proposal to add or remove from the lead of a mature article should be made with reference to WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 21:34, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

The mention does go on a bit and could be trimmed: "They also competed in the Space Race, which culminated in the 1969 landing of Apollo 11 on the Moon." Dhtwiki (talk) 03:33, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

At the very least: "in the 1969 U.S. landing of..." Apollo 11's origins are not known to most readers now. 71.255.77.207 (talk) 19:19, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Keep the idea, if not the exact sentence. It alludes to a lot more than just the historical event, and the reader can learn that from the links in the sentence.Shoreranger (talk) 19:36, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Simplify it to "With the 1969 landing of Apollo 11 on the moon, the US succeeded in the Space Race." HiLo48 (talk) 23:58, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• Keep, just read the request and am surprised that this is even a question. Of course the United States is known for landing people on the Moon, and of course this is lead worthy if not arguably first paragraph worthy. p.s. have edited the sentence and added the full six lunar landings. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)