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Eighth Schedule Languages Again

I just went back and re-read the secondary sources that I had compiled earlier. I am afraid I have to side with Blacksun. (My original goal was to make the point that Hindi and English had special status; after that discussion, I didn't pay that much attention to the sources, and, in particular, to what they said about other languages). It seems that the languages mentioned in all the references are the 8th schedule languages. The secondary sources don't all say that the languages are officialj languages, but have words to the effect that these languages are recognized by the constitution. The main point, however, is not whether the languages are technically official or not, but whether in the context of articles on India or the languages of India, they are mentioned by reliable secondary sources in discussions of official languages. Sorry to go back to the sources, but that is all we can go by. The secondary sources only mention Hindi, English, and 8th schedule. So, how does one resolve this? One way to get around the semantic problem would to have two boxes: one for Hindi, English (and labeled) "Official Languages;" and the other for 8th schedule languages, labeled "Official Languages Commission Languages." "Officially Recognised Languages." (Changed in light of Blacksun's comments below.) I am reproducing the secondary sources below (winnowed to make them more focused):

In particular, David Laitin's words (in reference 8) are significant: "And the 'Eighth Schedule' specified a list of fourteen "languages of India" whose speakers would be given protected seats on the Presidential Commission to implement the All-India language policy." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

PS Sorry, Blacksun, I didn't see your post (you must have posted while I was compiling the sources)! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly what I have been trying to say. I did read the entire discussion that had taken place but it was primarily about Hindi & English. Somewhere along the lines, user Abecedara proposed using state languages instead of 8th scheduled languages citing the fact that 8th schedule languages are not official. However, neither are state languages. Add to the fact that secondary sources tend to mention 8th schedule languages in the same breath as official languages. This cannot be said about state languages. Not to mention, this entire argument has come up before kindav. Nichalp cited: --source; Manorama Yearbook 2006, pg 507, ISBN 8189004077 -- to support 8th schedule languages inclusion and also stated that French is not the national language of India. --Blacksun 11:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, how about the following infobox: It has two boxes 1) Official Languages: Hindi, English, 2) Officially Recognized Languages: 8th Schedule Languages (listed).

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That is fine with me. You can call it just recognized or whatever else. --Blacksun 12:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Support: KnowledgeHegemony 16:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

PS I have changed the category from "Officially Recognised Languages" to "Languages Recognised by the Constitution" (8th Schedule Languages). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:39, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

(This was a reply to Lexmercatoria, who seems to have removed his question.) Well, here is the logic (as I see it). Agreed that 8th schedule languages are not "official," however, the languages mentioned in the secondary sources, in addition to Hindi and English, are only the 8th schedule languages. The "countries infobox template" has a number of language variables one can use: two are "pre-made" in the template. These are "official languages," and "regional languages" (the latter is not official state languages, but rather unrepresented languages that do not have official status); however, it also gives you a choice of defining the variable by choosing "languages_type" and creating the languages heading in a flexible manner. That is the option I have chosen. Clearly, the country infobox template allows that option, otherwise it wouldn't be there. The fact that secondary sources on India mention 8th schedule languages, but not official languages of the states, doesn't leave us with much choice. We can't have the official states languages. It is either "official languages" (Hindi and English) or choosing the flexible "language_type" with "official languages" (Hindi and English) and "Recognised Languages" (8th schedule). I have to run, but this is the logic. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:05, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Could Lexmercatoria, Abecedare, Sarvagnya, Gnanapiti, and others please respond? We have spent a lot of time on this topic and I know that it is getting to be exhausting, but it is best to get it over with. Believe me, I don't have any interest in prolonging this discussion, but unfortunately our hand is forced: the secondary sources only mention Hindi, English, and the 8th schedule languages (and not official state languages). The only way that I see it can be done (without mislabeling anything) is shown in the info box above. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I tried your latest infobox in the article by seeing its preview and I felt it looks quite 'distracting' and 'ugly'. It takes the attention of the reader away from the main article. KnowledgeHegemony 16:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, please suggest what you prefer. (Note that the references appearing on the left in the infobox above, will not show up in the actual article (and there won't be any repetitions). Since you supported the previous version, I guess it is a choice of what to call the 8th schedule infobox:

a) Recognised Languages (also a previous version)

b) Officially Recognised Languages (previous version OK's by Blacksun and KH)

c) Languages Recognised by the Constitution (current version)

Also, the explanation in the 8th schedule infobox can either be put in a footnote or be made shorter. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I think he might be talking about how its bolded. I guess it makes it stand out and can be distracting. --Blacksun 23:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the refs F&F; given the secondary sources I am happy with listing only the English, Hindi and scheduled languages in the infobox. However I do share K&H's concern about the current arrangement being somewhat cludgy. How about the first column saying only "Official languages" (does anybody object to this ?), with the second column containing the two collapsible boxes. My suggested short title for the 8th schedule infobox is simply "Scheduled languages" (ethnologue uses this terminology). A couple of potential though minor problem with using "recognised language" is (1) it suggests that the languages not listed are not recognised as (Indian) languages which obviously makes little sense :-) , (2) that the constitution may be recognising some other non-scheduled languages in some completely different context (this is the reason I had used the phrase "recognises in particular" in the Demographics section). Cheers. Abecedare 23:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, how's the new infobox on the main page? I have changed "recognised languages" to "Scheduled Languages." Unfortunately, I think, if we only have official languages, Lexmercatoria will object that "scheduled languages" are not official. As for the bolding, it comes with the template. ("Largest City" etc are in bold-face too.) I have removed the explanation as well, and made the "8th Schedule" infobox more compact. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I am satisfied by this version. I think it looks much cleaner without the black separator line in the previous version; and the left justification (rather than center justification) of the first column entries also blends in with the remainder of the infobox. Thanks F&f for your attempts to accommodate so many disparate views :-) Abecedare 01:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Good work F&F your efforts were indeed great KnowledgeHegemony 05:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I am satisfied with the format of the version shown by Abecedare too. However, I will state that calling them scheduled languages is bit useless as the reader is not going to have any clue what it means without clicking further. We should attempt to avoid such phrasings. Their is one thing about "click to read in detail" and entirely different when you make it so that its "click to understand what the hell this means." We should avoid the latter and strive for the former. I noticed that quite a few of the secondary sources by F&F refer to them as recognized languages which should be good enough for us. We should not sacrifice readability over unnecessary political correctness. --Blacksun 08:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Blacksun, I do understand your point that "scheduled languages" require clicking on the link for explanation; but, my guess is that almost anything short and sweet that will make an apt title for the left hand column will require further explanation. Even "recognised languages." (By whom? What about the other languages? Like Abecedare said, "Are they not recognised?) So, since as you say, you are satisfied with the current format, I'd say let's stay with it, and you and Abecedare can now work on improving the title. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Appositive Phrases

Dear Universe=atom, In my version of the last sentence of the lead ("A pluralistic, multilingual, multi-ethnic society, India is also home to a ..."), the appositive "A pluralistic, multilingual, multi-ethnic society" precedes the subject "India." That is OK. Here is an example from the New Oxford Guide to Writing:

“ Appositives occasionally open a clause or sentence, thus preceding the word to which they are in apposition. Then they must be followed by a comma, as in this example where a series of three appositives precedes the subject ("Bishop Andrewes"): "A gifted preacher, a profound scholar, and a great and good man, Bishop Andrewes was one of the lights of the Church of England." G. P. V. Akrigg ”

Besides in your version there is redundancy in "In addition" and "also." Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually the appositive doesn't agree with the subject. The appositive relates to the Indian society (pluralistic, multilingual and multi-enthnic) while the subject is India, the country. I would suggest rewording the sentence to something simpler, perhaps even breaking up the sentence into two, since the first half(which discusses the Indian society) has little to do with the second half of the sentence (which talks about India's wildlife and protected habitats). AreJay 23:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

No, the appositive doesn't relate to Indian society. Had the subject been "Indian society" it would have read, "Pluralistic, multilingual, and multi-ethnic, Indian society is ...." The sentence has exactly the same structure as the "Bishop Andrewes" example. The reason why the "also" (a subject of much previous discussion on this talk page) has been added, is that it de-emphasizes the main clause a little in contrast to the appositive phrase. Note that the sentence is similar to the sentence: "India, a pluralistic, multilingual, and multi-ethnic society, is also home to a diversity of wildlife ...," but in its current form, the two disparate elements—the society of people and the diversity of wildlife—are separated more, thereby making the transition from one to the other less jarring. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Nice point. Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 13:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Hindustani ?

Do we need this newly added demonym listed in the Infobox ? I know it is used in literary and historical context, but AFAIK the term is not used in any official documents or formal (non-literary) writing. Also the cited source is a lexical database which groups "cognitive synonyms", and hence has grouped "Hindu, Hindoo, Hindustani (a native or inhabitant of Hindustan or India)". I could see adjectives like Bharati/Bharatiya listed instead, but even that is very rarely (if ever) used as a demonym for India in English. Thoughts?
Also, anyone know why the "‡)" symbols appear before the lat/long coordinates of New Delhi in the infobox ? Abecedare 01:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we need "Hindustani." Were we to allow historical demonyms, the list could be very long. As for the "‡)" symbol, it seems to be an artifact of the lat/long, a recent problem I'm guessing. Other country pages like Pakistan, China, Nepal, ... have similar problems. We could remove the lat/long info for New Delhi (which seems to be different anyway from that on the New Delhi page) for now. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinions. I added the demonym because Hindustani is used frequently by Indians themselves at the conversational level as well as in several Bollywood movies. For example see the film title, Phir Bhi Dil Hai Hindustani. In other words, the demonym is not only a historical word but is still used today. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 03:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why we should add Hindustani. "The term is used in conversation frequently" is subjective. As I have witnessed the usage of term is not so frequent. Again, "several Bollywood movies" is subjective. Even if it is used in movies, that's not a good reason to add it here. At most the term can be used in Hindi wikipedia or any other language wikipedia where the term is in use.(I haven't come across the word Hindustani in Kannada. Instead, the term widely used is "Bharatiya".) Gnanapiti 03:53, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't know about the movies, but this is the "India" page of the English Wikipedia, and Websters' main entry for India, refers to "Indian" as the demonym: "of or from the subcontinent of India : of the kind or style prevalent in the subcontinent of India : INDIAN" Also, according to the OED, "Hindustani" is "A native of Hindustan; a Hindu or Muslim of Upper India." That means that regardless of how Indians use "Hindustani" in conversation, in the English language "Hindustani" still retains its historical meaning, i.e. a native of Northern India." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

interestingly, the OED also gives a meaning of Hindustani as equivalent to Urdu, not "Hindi+Urdu" (and adds, "By earlier writers sometimes applied to Hindi itself."). We may need to review our definition of Hindustani. "WordNet" is obviously not a "reliable source". dab (𒁳) 11:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dab, Yes, the Hindustani language use to be the same as Urdu (or, more correctly, Urdu use to be the same as Hindustani). The Hindustani page does say belatedly (towards the end of the lead paragraph), "In fact, before the Partition of British India, the terms Hindustani and Urdu were synonymous." As far as I am aware, things began to change after 1947 (or perhaps starting with the poetry of Iqbal a little earlier), when Urdu, especially in Pakistan, began to acquire its highly Persianized literary vocabulary; contemporaneously, in India, modern Hindi (which had emerged in the late 19th century) began to move even more in the opposite direction, adding all kinds of Sanskrit neologisms. The term "Hindi-Urdu" was created by linguists (I'm guessing in the 1960s) as a more descriptive and neutral (since Hindustan also meant India, which, after 1947, was a different entity) replacement for "Hindustani" (or old Urdu). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

PS You might be interested in reading the excerpts from David Laitin's paper at the end of the section here. Laitin, who says, "Gandhi also emphasized the need for an indigenous all-India language as something of grave need, and promoted Hindustani, a north Indian koine that blurred the distinction between Hindi and Urdu," is also not quite correct. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

PPS And here is the entry, "Hindostanee" in Hobson-Jobson (not always completely reliable, considering it was written in 1886, but correct here). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

that's all very well, but I am still surprised that the current (2007) OED has "Urdu" and adds that in earlier times it used to mean Hindi. --dab (𒁳) 13:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, my version of OED, which is the current on-line version (actually the 1989 second edition) says for entry Urdu, "A. n. Formerly, = HINDUSTANI n. 2; in recent use distinguished from Hindustani (the lingua franca) and designated as the official language of Pakistan." For Hindustani it says, "2. The language of the Muslim conquerors of Hindustan, being a form of Hindi with a large admixture of Arabic, Persian, and other foreign elements; also called Urdu, i.e. zaban-i-urdu language of the camp, sc. of the Mogul conquerors. It later became a kind of lingua franca over all India, varying greatly in its vocabulary according to the locality and local language." You are right, the "Hindustani" definition could certainly be improved. For one, what they mean by "Hindi" is not modern Hindi, but the "Hindi" dialect that was spoken in the Delhi area in the 16th or 17th century; and by "Urdu" they don't mean modern Urdu, but what was called Urdu in the 19th century. Perhaps someone should write to them, but, given that it is the OED, they might have reasons for the choice of words ... Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:24, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

you are right, I suppose our Hindustani article is doing alright. dab (𒁳) 13:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

First Woman President

The first woman president will take oath.

--Florentino floro 04:54, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

As User:Abecedare has already explained in the edit summary, although the news is latest and of much importance it doesn't really fit into the main space of this article which is supposed be a high level Summary style article on India. Thanks for showing interest in the betterment of article though. Hope to see more such constructive edits from you in the future. Gnanapiti 05:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Footnote in Infobox

The second footnote in the infobox states that "This includes only Indian-administered territory" (or something like that). That is present where it states the area of India, the reason of which is logically deductible. However, why is it present where it states the latitude and longitude of New Delhi? Is that at all related to Indian-administered territory? Universe=atom^{Talk•Contributions} 16:32, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The ‡) symbol in the lat/long of New Delhi, is just an artifact of (or rather the result of a bug in) the lat/long program. The same problem exists on other country pages, where other footnotes symbols appear. I am removing the lat/long info for New Delhi for now, until the bug in lat/long has been fixed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Why does it say India is multi ethnic?

If you go to the CIA's world factbook website, it says that India is somewhere over 70% Indian - Aryan & 25% (or so) Dravidian. (I dont agree with the term Dravidian) but the point is, India is not "MULTI ETHNIC" 71.119.249.104 21:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

nonsense. "Indo-Aryan" and "Dravidian" are huge linguistic super-groups, not single ethnicities. You might as well say they're all Homo sapiens (which is also true, of course). dab (𒁳) 21:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if User:71.119.249.104 is confusing ethnicity with race (whatever that is). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

yes; race used to mean "breed, type" and could apply to groups smaller than an ethnos, and has now come to mean "super-phyllum" or what. Racism and related trouble is first and foremost a semantic confusion. dab (𒁳) 22:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

You people havn't done your research. If you ask an Iranian what they are, I mean after the Persian part, they will say Aryan (at least some will). ANd the same can be said for some Afghans, Pakistanis, and Indians. I mean this is not a debate. Many people from this region say there Aryan. And this can be said for some Europeans (of course some of the Euorpeans who believe there Aryan, might have a racist version of that, similar to that of a white supremacist group)....Anyway.....the point is.....Even the CIA recognizes that most Indian people are INDO-ARYAN. Now if you want to say India is multi ethnic fine I know u people are not going to understand what im saying cuz some of u might not be Indian. But this article should at least say somewhere in the start of the article that India is said to possibly be the homeland of the Aryans. 71.107.57.134 08:22, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Ultimately, we are all from Africa, including you and me. Our ancestors left Africa only about 50,000 years ago. That is the big story. After they left Africa, whether they came straight to India along the coastal route (as some ancestors of the Adivasis, India's original inhabitants, did, or as the ancestors of the native Andaman islanders did), or they migrated a little later out of Africa into the region of Western India/Pakistan/Iran along the coastal route, then migrated into Central Asia, then into Europe, and (for some) then back into Iran and India, as it apparently happened for some Indo-Aryans (according to Y-chromosome evidence), it doesn't really matter. The DNA is more or less the same for all humans. As for what is the homeland of the Aryans? According to most historical linguists, it is Southern Ukraine, west of the Dneiper River, not India. It is people in that region, who are considered by mainstream opinion in historical linguistics, to be the original speakers of PIE (Proto-Indo-European). Sanskrit is a descendant of that language. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Without discussing origins or Indians, there are hundred of different ethnicities in India (e.g. Bengali, Gujrati, Tamil, Assamese) etc. I believe our anon friend is utterly confused by the words Ethnicity and Race. Since it has already been pointed out to him, I believe reiterating the same thing would be pointless unless he reads the previous comments. --Ragib 19:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Total Area of India

3 Questions:

• What is India's area considering all areas under actual administration and total area as claimed by Indian government?
• Similarly, the same data for Pakistan (actual and claimed)?
• What are the CIA figures based on (their considerations)?

Please mention the source you refer to gather your data. KH 14:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

...... *waiting* KH 09:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• Total area of India as per India yearbook and indian govt website is 32,87,263 sq km. [1] However CIA website states it as 3,287,590 sq km. [2] I guess we should go by the figures stated by Indian govt and make the necessary changes in the article.Gprince007 14:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Help on Indian law

Hello, I am an editor from Britain who mainly does the law pages. I wanted to request some contributions from either experts or people who know a little about the Indian legal system for the Indian law page. I thought this would be the best place to ask. What does Indian law say on issues of contract, trusts, property, and criminal law? How many decisions of the House of Lords remain in the common law in India? Are you still burdened (like us!) with Donoghue v. Stephenson in tort law? To what extent has Indian common law followed its own path since independence, and how influential does Commonwealth jurisprudence remain? What is the constutional and administrative law balance between the state and federal levels? And so on... If people could help out at the Indian law page I would be very grateful. Wikidea 01:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the resident expert on Indian Law is user:Lexmercatoria, who sadly seems to have withdrawn from the WP enterprise. I am hoping that this is temporary. I have already left a post on his talk page encouraging him to return. Perhaps you could post your message there as well. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Removal of statement

I removed this recently added statement from the lead:

Historically, South Asia was always famous as the richest region of the globe [3].

for the following reasons:

• It is not directly connected with the Republic of India, which is the subject of this article.
• It, while true if interpreted in certain contexts, is vague overly-broad (and arguably incorrect) in its current formulation (South Asia? always?)
• It is sourced to an essay in the Time magazine by William Dalrymple, and not to some scholarly article. As such it is equivalent to an Op-Ed piece which is usually taken as a reliable source for the author's opinions but not necessarily the stated facts. (see discussion here)

If other editors think that the past wealth of India/South Asia is a worthy topic to be covered in the main India page, we should find reliable academic sources that document the relevant times and statistics, to use as citations. Abecedare 07:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. No need for that recently added sentence. I noticed that there were some other minor (redundant or incorrect) changes made in the lead in the last week or so. I have reverted those as well. Also, the preposition that seems to go with "market exchange rates" in the literature is "at," not "by," i.e. "at market exchange rates," rather than "by market exchange rates." So, I've changed that as well. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I strongly disagree. This was a quote from a Renowned Historian William Dalrymple, and QUOTED by TIME Magazine. The quote is relevant because is describes the history of India and it's influence around the World.

This had also been backed up by Renowned Economic Historian and former OCED Head Angus Maddison. You can find it in the List of regions by past GDP (PPP) and also in his research in The World Economy: Historical Statistics.

Your Case isn't Strong. You are merely using blanketed statements with no real substance. I will change it later if I don't see a strong case. You can't say that's not a relevant quote, unless you disagree with the MEANING behind it, and your trying to use Censorship. This leaves the impression that your intentions are questionable. Can you provide anything to PROVE your case? Cosmos416 15:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Cosmo416, I have reverted your edit because it is redundant. It echoes what has already been said in the second paragraph (lead). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Fowler, it is not redundant, and I see no clear mention of this quote in the same context. First you said the facts were incorrect, and now your saying it's very repeptive? That's a complete lie. It sounds like your trying to marginalize historical facts.

Why are you fighting this so hard? Do you have any real argument? I have provided 2 VERY Reputable sources, that deal with India's influence throughout history. Cosmos416 21:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Cosmos, here is the sentence from the second sentence where the basic point is made: "Home to the Indus Valley civilization and a region of historic trade routes and vast empires, the Indian subcontinent was identified with its commercial and cultural wealth for much of its long history." (emphasis added) If you wish to add a citation to the Angus Maddison paper to the sentence, you are welcome to do so.

Also I trust that your original edit was well-motivated and never questioned your motivation or truthfulness - I urge you to extend F&F and me the same courtesy. Thanks. Abecedare 01:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the citation to Angus Maddison's book myself. Abecedare 01:49, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Abecedare, I understand your concern (as I would have about your intentions aswell), and I know I'm acting in good faith, as I have provided a Quotation from a Historian William Dalrymple in article he wrote for TIME Magazine.

I have also provided the secondary source of Economic Historian and former OCED Head Angus Maddison. The statistical resources in his research in The World Economy: Historical Statistics are also mentioned and provided in the List of regions by past GDP (PPP). I actually have the Maddison book, and will provide more statical data as a secondary source if needed. Cosmos416 14:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but these historical GDP estimates are unreliable. They are based on many conjectures about economies of a thousand years ago. The Wikipedia article is the work of one editor Jagged85, whose edits on the Indian mathematics page I have found to be exaggerated. For example, there is no agreement even among Indian economic historians on the economy of Mughal India, let alone early medieval India. There are some who think that there was widespread recession during many periods and others who think that the recession only affected parts of north India. The bottom line is that statement is too definitive and too conjectural. It does not belong anywhere on the India page, much less the lead. You are welcome to add it to the List of whatever ... you quote. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Since *this article* is about the Republic of India, and not the Indian subcontinent, such claims of economic data pre-1947 are irrelevant. Both Pakistan and Bangladesh can claim that the same quote applies to them as well. Mughal India <> Republic of India. The Time Magazine quote applies to Historical Indian subcontinent, and NOT to RoI, the modern country. --Ragib 00:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

As I had guessed, there are problems with Maddison's book. Here are some excerpts from a review by Bryan Haig (Australian National University), Economic Record, volume 81, 2005.

(I have added excerpts from reviews of other books by Maddison to the discussion page here.) If Maddison's estimates for Australia from the 19th century, moves Haig, an expert on Australian national accounts statistics, to say that "by the standards of Australian official statisticians, they (Maddison's estimates) are inaccurate and irrelevant as a measure of Australian real income in the 19th century," then I am afraid it is hard to pin much confidence on Maddison's estimates of India from first millennium. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:35, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Ragib, I didn't see your post. I agree with you. The sentence introduced by Cosmos416 at the very best belongs to some economic history article, and there too it needs to be accompanied by a discussion of the statistics' likely inaccuracies per the critique of Brian Haig. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

PS Well, Cosmos416 and others, have already edited the Economic History of India article and introduced many inaccuracies there. For example, Maddison is quoted twice and the second time called a "Cambridge historian." In fact, Maddison was an undergraduate at Cambridge, who after attending a few graduate schools chose not to go for a Ph.D., worked with the OECD in Paris, and finally at the age of 52, joined Groningen University in 1978 and stayed there until his retirement. Could someone please keep an eye on that article? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Learn

Look at the French article on India.[4] Beautiful. Many sections and beautiful images. Need to learn from that and if adopting the style of it, by including more sections and the beautiful images, this article can be improved a lot. Chanakyathegreat 16:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

What to learn? Wikipedia is not about creating sections and adding images. That's a beautiful article, I agree, but keep in mind that this is a featured article. Gnanapiti 22:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

External links of "General reference"

I feel the external links of the General reference section should be removed. They all give only information that would be present in this article (and other related articles) if it were complete, thus not respecting the first item of the list of Links normally to be avoided ("Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article"). However they could be used in references according to WP:EL#References_and_citation. Moreover Britanica requires registration, thus violating item 6 of the previously mentioned list of forbidden external links ("Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content"). BernardM 12:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I support retaining the General reference links (especially CIA factbook and LOC), since they do provide an independent and reputable source for trustworthy and comprehensive information, which expands upon the content of the article. Also, as per my reading of the WP:EL guidelines, these links are not "forbidden"; their inclusion simply needs to be given careful thought, which I think has been done in this instance. Any other thoughts or suggestions ? Abecedare 15:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Negotiation Cont'd

Folwer & Folwer,

“PS Well, Cosmos416 and others, have already edited the Economic History of India article and introduced many inaccuracies there.”

(1) Watch yourself; DON’T make FALSE incriminations against users. It can come back to haunt you.

(2) You’ve changed your argument 4 Times! (And continuously refuse to even show any hard proof.

(a.) First you said the facts were incorrect, I proved you wrong by providing 2 Reputable sources. (I never said I was relying on Maddsion, so STOP putting words into others mouth, Got it?

(b.) Second, you claimed it was Repetitive, I caught you in a LIE and you are trying to marginalize historical facts.

(c.) Third, you claimed that Dalrymple is not a historian, when in fact it says so in his Wikipedia Bio, on other Reputable sites. Another Lie you’ve been caught in.

(d.) Fourth, You have resorted to choosing which source is more reliable than the other…First, I doubt you have any credentials, and YOU are in NO position to critique people with credentials, and who are internationally known..

(e.) You listed and gave the impression that Brian Haig as being an “expert” in economics. He’s not an Economic Historian, he ‘s Psychology professor! Lol. Explain to all of us how a unknown psychology professor writing a criticism makes him the authority? And can you please list the “Other Experts” as well in detail. Which links sources, sentence number, etc.

So you just gave a complete lie. So I see no relevance in his criticism, he’s not even worthy enough to have an article about him in wikipedia, is well known internationally.

(3) I said that Maddison could be used as a Secondary Source, and I’m using the TIME magazine as the Primary Source, so your objections up til now have simply shown you really don’t want this quote in the article, because you like what is conveys.

(4) Another user has reverted and you keep making up new reasons in hope everyone else will give up. You sound remarkably similar to two USERS on here. Maybe we should do an IP check on a to find out what the real deal is.

(BTW: Maddison was former head of the ‘’’OEEC’’’, which is now called the ‘’’OCED’’’)

You are just finding new ways of to disagree, cause conflict, and instigative edit wars. In the end, you have no intention of Negotiating, or even showing any Solid proof.

Stick to the Quotation given originally, lets negotiate, stop trying to sideline it. If you don’t want to be a constructive part of the process, or even willing to be flexible, then don’t bother.

Edits: “Historically, South Asia was always famous as the richest region of the globe.”

Quotation by Historian William Dalrymple, in an Article for TIME magazine . [P.S: William Dalrymple's latest book, The Last Mughal: The Fall of a Dynasty, Delhi 1857, has just been awarded the Duff Cooper Prize for History and Biography] http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1649060_1649046_1649026,00.html

Cosmos416 00:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Going on Google and doing a search on "Brian Haig" is not the best way of checking the antecedents of "Bryan Haig" (Can you tell the difference? It is spelled differently.) Bryan Haig, is a economic historian at the Australian National University and former editor of the Review of Income and Wealth. As for Maddison being "head of OEEC," first of all, I do know that OEEC changed its initials in the 1960s; however, Maddison was never Head of either OEEC or OECD. He was, as he says in his own biography (see the Angus Maddison page that I recently copy edited), head of the economics division and later promoted to Assistant Director of the Economic Development Department. Do you know how big the OECD is? This site will give you an idea. The big boss of OECD, in any case is called the Secretary-General and Maddison was in never in any danger of being even remotely considered for that post. As I have indicated above, I have added excerpts from reviews of four books by Maddison to another discussion page.

Sorry to be blunt, but please don't delude yourself that there is some negotiation going on here. Wikipedia doesn't work like that. As I said earlier, your statement that South Asia was historically the richest region on earth, is fraught with too many problems to belong to anywhere on the India page, much less the lead. Quoting Dalrymple or Time magazine, serves no purpose. Dalrymple is a popular historian, not an academic historian. (If you think he is an academic historian, then please tell us where he got his Ph. D. and which academic journal he has published articles in.) There is a legion of popular historians out there and all their pronouncements on the topics of the day are not worthy of Wikipedia. Believe me, when it comes to economic history of India, Maddison, problematic as he is, is a lot more credible that Dalrymple. Finally, I suggest you read Types of source material. "Primary" and "secondary" sources don't mean the first and second. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You keep making the WRONG assumption that the Maddison's work is inaccurate, while it is referenced in other scholarly research. Most Research will have some form of Criticism, but whether which side it falls on is not YOUR DECISION.

LAST TIME I'M GOING TO REPEAT MYSELF....

You've already changed your arguments at least SERVERAL times as shown above. This Quotation by Historian William Dalrymple, is the SOURCE, from an Article for TIME magazine .

“Historically, South Asia was always famous as the richest region of the globe.”

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1649060_1649046_1649026,00.html

Now can you show reputable sources that DIRECTLY REFUTE that QUOTATION? IF not, you don't have a case, still.

Cosmos416 16:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

If the quote is Historically, South Asia was always famous as the richest region of the globe, why do you want to add it to the India article?. Wouldn't it be better to put it in South Asia, after all, this region includes several countries besides India. --Victor12 17:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

If you insist on this quote here, shouldn't we add the exact same quote and claim to Pakistan and Bangladesh too? After all, the quote and all references are to South Asia, of which "Republic of India" (this article) is a part. Please focus on the subject of *this article* which is the modern republic. Any pre-1947 references to "India" doesn't mean the modern republic, rather a superset consisting of RoI, Pakistan and Bangladesh. --Ragib 18:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that Cosmos416 (talk · contribs) has NOT read the reference he's trying to add, I request reading it again ... it says Historically, South Asia was always famous as the richest region of the globe. South Asia is not India alone. Per WP:V, we can't add such a subjective claim without any reference, and if you add a reference, it must actually support what you are claiming. Further addition or misquoting of this would just be plain trolling. Thank you. --Ragib 18:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Critical Attention all concerned associated with WP:IND

The article India, is now in a not so good condition. There are a lot of visible flaws in it. I think it would be bad to put it in WP:FAR. I am pointing out some of my concerns:

• Inconsistant use of ciations in Lead, going with the trend it would be better not to have any citations in the lead.
• Many parts of the article are not ciationed properly, mainly Government, Politics, Foreign relations and the military, Geography, Culture
• Missing section- Transport, Media
• Elaborate-
  • Climate- Temperature (create a seperate section) take data from Climate of India, it is a FA,
  • geography-political geography, neighbouring countries, latitude, longitude, timezone, size
  • Sports (better to create a seperate section)
• Link to sub articles, see also, adding of appropriate templates.
• The section 'Subdivisions' may be turned into prose. Name the largest state and district in terms of area/population.

This are my premilinary observations. Pls discuss the matter in Talk:India and improve the quality of the article. In short my main concerns are verifiability and compehensiveness. Amartyabag ^TALK2ME 15:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the review Amartyabag - it is always useful to have more (constructive) independent views of the article. Here is my quick response to a couple of points you raise:

• As WP:LEAD specifies the lead is not exempt from the verifiability requirement. So if it presents some facts (that are disputable) and not explicitly repeated later in the article (eg the 7000 km coastline), they need to be cited. There is no consistency requirement to cite everything or nothing in the lead. That said, I agree with you that one or two citations from the lead can perhaps be moved to later sections.
• The topic of additional sections (on Sports, Media etc) has been thoroughly discussed in the past and the current consensus is that more sections are not desirable or warranted. Of course, if you or any other editors feel strongly about this issue, it can be reopened, but hopefully only after the earlier discussions have been read and considered by the proposer.
• As per WP:SS, a summary style article need not cite every detail that is referenced in the sub-article, so we don't need to reference many of the undisputed facts in this article - especially since several of the sub articles are themselves FA. But if there is anything in particular that you think needs referencing, it should be relatively easy to find appropriate references on this well-covered subject.
• I didn't understand what you meant by "Link to sub articles, see also, adding of appropriate templates.". Can you clarify ?

Cheers. Abecedare 16:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think certain templates like Countries in Asia, SAARC, etc may enhance the article. Amartyabag ^TALK2ME 10:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

That has in fact been tried earlier and I had happened to argue against it. You can look at the discussion in the archives and see if you disagree with the points made. Thanks. Abecedare 14:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I don't mind a review. Good things come out such reviews (generally). Ofcourse, it will pass it and never be further listed in WP:FARC. So lets see whats the outcome. Perfection comes with criticism. KH 14:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Are we going to keep Toda hut image in the article for the centuries to come? As if the hut image is representing the whole cultural scenario of India. Gnanapiti 15:55, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the Toda hut doesnot represent culture of India properly. I will propose some of the photos of festivals like Diwali can do justice. I will propose the photo

Koodiyattam is an artform traditionaly performed in Kerala, India. Recognised by UNESCO as a Human Heritage Art

from South India. Easteren and NE is not represented by photos. Amartyabag ^TALK2ME 06:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

One more thing I can suggest, which I think can end this debate about the use of photos in the culture section. Lets select 1 photo from each state (if available) related to the culture of the state and we can change these photos every fortnight (15 days), much importance can be given to any picture of festival which falls during the period. What all other think about this??? We can have a straw poll, to have a consensus on this matter. Amartyabag ^TALK2ME 06:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Amartyabag, please read through the extensive discussion on the subject of images in the talk page archives (particularly 22-25) before reopening this Pandora's box. IMO this topic always produces more heat than light, and our efforts may be better directed at improving some other project pages than playing around with the images here, which will likely effect the reader's experience only at the margins. Abecedare 06:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

A reminder to all- Sport in India and Culture of India are in bad shape. KH 16:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Economy of India

I am not a registered user of Wikipedia, so someone who is might want to edit the following bit in the article on India: "Although income inequality in India is relatively small (Gini coefficient: 32.5 in year 1999- 2000)[7] it has been increasing of late. Despite significant economic progress, a quarter of the nation's population earns less than the government-specified poverty threshold of $0.40/day."

This recent article shows that more than 77 percent of Indians(836 million) live on less than .50 cents per day: http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSDEL218894

While the official Indian government figures state only 26 percent of Indians are living in poverty, international figures, such as the World Bank list anyone making less than 1 dollar a day as living in extreme poverty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty

That would put, at the very least, 77 percent of Indians in the "extreme poverty" category.

I think it is important that Wikipedia adds the information from this most recent Reuters article(and the report it cites) in order to give a more even-handed look at poverty in India rather than simply cite/repeat official Indian government statistics. I don't have a Wikipedia account, so I can't really do this myself, but for the sake of credibility, I hope someone does take into account this new news article and report.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.83.138.65 (talk) 18:56, August 15, 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your post. Although Reuters is not always a quotable source, I agree that in this case it is reliably reporting something the Government of India itself has recently stated. I agree oo that a change will need to be made on the India page, but it would be good to actually see the report. Do you have a web site for it? I know that it was reported in today's New York Times (not the exact statistic, but the Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's reference to it yesterday). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree with the classification "extreme poverty." That is simply a ridiculous jump of putting two and two together. The notion that you can apply a universal $1 a day number to classify poverty universally is also ridiculous. Their is a very good reason why the government of India has its own poverty line. Even national poverty lines are fuzzy and do not give a clear picture as cost of living can change dramatically from one part of country to another.--Blacksun 09:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This, as you will yourself recall, has been discussed on these pages before. Please read the discussion here on the Government of India's poverty line. As for "extreme poverty," I agree that it is not for us to characterize it, it is enough to provide the numbers (per capita daily income etc.) Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure, the actual report can be found here: http://nceus.gov.in/Executive_Summary_08082007.pdf

It's actually a very interesting document. Some good information that could be used for the India page(s). It is also probably the most recent report of its kind.

Oh, by the way, if you(or anyone else here) is a dedicated researcher of these topics and wants to transfer portions of some of these reports onto Wikipedia, here is the NCEUS website. Some other good reports on it: http://nceus.gov.in/

Here is one more link that gives a longer synopsis of the report than the Reuters version: http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/10/stories/2007081056671600.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.83.138.65 (talk • contribs) 23:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Will take a look at it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

PS I am a little mystified why the gentleman in the Hindu newspaper report is smiling. Seems a little grotesque for a report that is so somber. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Their are various agencies that come out with such data and often it is conflicting depending on their methods. Here is an article where the author makes some very valid points about various holes in the way this particular data was collected and analysed: http://www.business-standard.com/common/storypage.php?autono=294226&leftnm=4&subLeft=0&chkFlg= --Blacksun 09:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, NCEUS report (according to the NY Times) is being taken very seriously by the current government (which includes at least two very capable economists, Manmohan Singh and Montek Ahluwalia). As for your link, I don't know who Mr. Jain is, but as a columnist for the "Business Standard" he has a likely ax to grind. I agree though that the report should be read and the statistic first stabilized in a daughter page like Poverty in India before it is included in the India page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, there is a good chance that the NCEUS report is pretty on the mark. Indian government organizations aren't exactly known for painting India, especially India's economy, in bad light. The NCEUS report is a rarity among official Indian government reports. Especially when it comes to poverty--instead of adhering to international standards, like the World Bank's measure for poverty(either 1 to 2 dollars per day per person), India has come up with its own standard for poverty that has to do with...caloric intake, ignoring issues like shelter, infastructure, health care, etc when assessing the expenses and needs of the poor. Too much of the "we need to paint India as a superpower" mentality. Unfortunately, the Indian government's official line on their levels of poverty have been universally accepted in statistics, including Wikipedia. I mean, it's a little bizarre. Wikipedia's article on poverty cites the international standards for poverty, on one hand, but on the other, quotes the official Indian government party line on poverty in articles on India...even when the Indian government comes out with stats like 77 percent of its population lives under .50 cents a day. Here are a couple of articles that discuss the problems with the poverty stats given by the official line: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11489 and http://www.indiatogether.org/2006/mar/ddz-povline.htm

All in all, I suspect counter articles to the NCEUS as written by shills of specific interests that don't like what the report might herald. But as you said, the Prime Minister is not only not dismissing the NCEUS report, he's taking it quite seriously.

P.S.: Yes, the picture of him smiling was odd, when you consider the report he was delivering.

I noticed that you provided no real counter arguments except bunch of unsubstantiated b.s. like "Indian government organizations aren't exactly known for painting India in bad light." In fact, it is normal for Indian government agencies to RAISE growth rates few years down the road after more accurate data analysis is done. That would point towards modest reporting not exaggeration. However, it really does not matter whether you label 77% of the population as extremely poor or not because the reality is not dependent on what you might propagate on Wikipedia. --Blacksun 15:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I find it ironic that you've cited one article that calls into question the finding of an Indian government organization as *exaggerated*--a report that has received wide acceptance in the press and the Indian government, including the Prime Minister, as your basis for ignoring the report, but in the next breath, state that Indian government agencies tend to be *modest* in their reporting. And that you call my remarks "unsubstantiated B.S.", while you cite a single article written by a virtual unknown with tenuous, at best, arguments against the widely accepted NCEUS report as a reason to keep the NCEUS statistics off of Wikipedia and to call into question previously reported rates of povery in India. But, as you said, it won't matter what you propogate on Wikipedia; reality is reality. Indian poverty won't disappear just because you or some guy in some magazine say so. I've said my bit about this topic and I have no Wikipedia account, nor have a greater investment in this topic than what I've said thus far, so I'll leave it to better heads to decide whether the NCEUS report is kept out of the India article or not. Until then, I'll wait for you to declare on Wikipedia that India's poverty rate has dropped to 0%, citing some obscure and unreliable journalist on...Business Standard. Then we can all go out and celebrate this new "reality"! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.83.138.65 (talk)

English as Second Language Speakers in India

You will recall that last week some folk tried to insert a sentence about India having the largest number of English language speakers of any country in the world. The number of speakers, it was claimed, was 350 million. Well I looked into it and discovered that the number is grossly exaggerated (more than three times the actual number). I have since corrected the page List of countries by English-speaking population. India does not have 350 million English language speakers. The number is more like 85 to 100 million, which includes both people who speak English as a second language and those who speak it as a third language. India has the second largest English speaking population after the US. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems like your data came from 1991 Census. I would be interested in last census data if it can be tracked down. It is quite possible that their is a significant increase. --Blacksun 09:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

My numbers, which are really the latest numbers of TESOL-India (Teachers of English to Speakers of Other Languages, India), are approximately 55 million more than the Census of India's numbers from the 1991 data. TESOL-India's site, India: World's Second Largest English-Speaking Country explains Wikipedia's bloated numbers, i.e. the difference between the 350 million number mentioned on this Wikpidedia page and the more plausible 100 million number:

“ Wikipedia's India estimate of 350 million includes two categories - "English Speakers" and "English Users". The distinction between the Speakers and Users is that Users only know how to read English words while Speakers know how to read English, understand spoken English as well as form their own sentences to converse in English. The distinction becomes clear when you consider the China numbers. China has over 200~350 million users that can read English words but, as anyone can see on the streets of China, only handful of million who are English speakers. ”

I agree that it would be best if we had 2001 statistics, but for some reason it takes the Census of India a long time (a decade?) to work up the statistics. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Dull?

I dont know if others feel this way now, but I know in the past many of us thought that the pictures and the article were a little dull (for example the Ajanta Caves image is unclear, the Agni pic is a lil dull, the Toda image doesnt represent all of India) Does anyone else feel that way? Nikkul 14:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Ajanta image, if you believe it is dull I recommend you to send the image to Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates#Nomination_for_delisting since that is the first criterion. Personally, I don't think the Ajanta or the Agni image is dull. As for the Toda Hut, there is no image that represents all of India apart from a map of India. Do you want the entire page to be full of maps? :) Gizza^{Discuss ©} 03:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

See my comments in the Talk:India#Critical Attention all concerned associated with WP:IND section above. This may end the debate about the use of photos. Amartyabag ^TALK2ME 05:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me just point out that I was the one who brought up the Diwali photo thing before, so I would totally be with you in replacing the Toda hut picture with a Diwali picture. In fact, i have already gotten pics of diwali to be posted here. Here are my suggestions: Nikkul 15:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• Replace the toda hut pic with a Diwali pic because:
  • 1- Toda Hut does not represent all of India; only a tiny number of indians are Toda's
  • 2- Even Toda's dont live in those huts anymore. They live in modern homes as someone else had pointed out earlier
  • 3- The Toda image does not represent any one region of India
  • 4- Diwali is celebrated all over India by more than 800 million people

• Replace the Ajanta Caves image with the Taj Mahal image because:
  • 1- The Ajanta Caves image is dull and can barely be seen
  • 2- The Taj Mahal is more historical than Cultural for Indians.... It's more an artifact from history than a part of modern Indian culture
  • 3- This will leave us with an option to add another image for the culture section

Please feel free to comment on any proposal

Shoot me now.--Blacksun 15:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)