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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 76.251.28.21 (talk) at 19:06, 31 May 2012 (→‎F9: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Retire F8

WITHDRAWN
It's obvious the community doesn't agree with me. Leaving the RFC up for a secondary discussion, but if you disagree, feel free to pull it. --NYKevin @879, i.e. 20:05, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As shown at this ANI discussion, and by the continued existence of {{keep local}} (with 2500+ transclusions at the time of this writing [1]), the community no longer automatically trusts Wikimedia Commons with "their" images. F8 as it stands is a nest of exceptions and special cases, and deletion at Commons often causes acrimony that could be avoided if the images were also kept locally. Although F8 requires that "the license is undoubtedly accepted at Commons," it's obvious that plenty of people feel this is not sufficient, primarily because the people judging what's acceptable for F8 are not the same people who decide whether to delete at Commons, so they won't always reach the same conclusions. And finally, Commons requires images to be "realistically useful", which is supposed to be a superset of "in use by someone," but their actual policy is a bit more complex than that. I submit that, while there may be some benefit to deleting such files, it should not be happening speedily. Rather, such deletions should go through either WP:G7 (author's permission) or FFD. Therefore, I propose that we retire criterion F8. --NYKevin @842, i.e. 19:12, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: If that is your concern, I would prefer to just add a "seven days after notification" time limit like some of the other speedy criteria for files. Don't make the assumption that those on FFD are also the same people who decide whether to delete at Commons. Just merely moving them all to FFD might not solve these issues, and would just instead increase the backlog on FFD without any real benefit. Remember, as stated on the top of FFD, and rule # 8 of Wikipedia:Files for deletion/Administrator instructions, an image may also be deleted if "no objections to deletion have been raised". Zzyzx11 (talk) 19:51, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Holy crap no - There aren't even enough editors to maintain the file issues we currently have, and now we should triple the workload? The burden should be on the paranoid uploaders, not the editors who spend hours a day maintaining files. If users are worried about "their" files, they can use the template and watchlist them. F8 doesn't mean that uploader wishes will be ignored. I agree with Zzyzx11 about adding a "CSD after the file has been tagged for 7 days" clause, but this should be the most that is done. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 21:54, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In case it is not clear already, most images that go through FFD get no discussion whatsoever. FFD is filled every day with images that are deleted without a single comment, for reasons like "orphaned" or whatever. Many of those images should not be on the Wiki, but some should. Unlike an article, nobody will recreate a photo after it is gone. Once it is deleted it is gone forever. Now you want to drown all of those images in a deluge of valid deletions because a few entitled editors can't think past their foil hats? ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 00:40, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add a week wait - won't significantly increase the burden on file workers, but will decrease the possibility of images being deleted when authors don't want them to be. Not all uploaders are aware of {{KeepLocal}}, so unless we want to add a note about it to the upload form, we can't reasonably expect them (especially newer editors) to take all responsibility. The issue of whether we should be moving files to Commons at all and under what circumstances is a larger discussion that will likely need to be had at some point, but not here and now. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:12, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • What? - no no no. If users don't trust their images or files to Commons, they can put the template on. F8 is otherwise very clear that the administrator should only delete a file if the licensing is unquestionably OK on Commons. If an admin is deleting images incorrectly (something which happens approximately 0.01% of the time), then the correct avenue is to take it up with that admin - just like every other speedy deletion subsection. It's not like, in the case that there is an error, it can't be undone (again, like every other subsection). To say this is throwing out the baby with the bathwater is a collosal understatement; this is throwing out the baby with the bathwater, then going and senselessly beating on the husk of the body until the baby lies dead. This would defeat the entire purpose of having Commons - to have a repository for free images which all the projects can use together; even the "middle ground" option mentioned above of waiting 7 days would create unnecessary and massive headaches. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:37, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, to point out the issue regarding Commons scope: English Wikipedia treats things the same way; we just don't have it codified. We don't treat users uploading gobs of personal images and not using them for a valid purpose either. If it's out of Commons scope, it certainly is out of English Wikipedia scope and would have been deleted at FFD (in fact, FFD is considerably more liberal in deleting images than Commons is). Again, is it worth gumming up a perfectly good system with all sorts of red tape (the 7 days) or completely axing it altogether (the eliminate F8 option) in order to save a few vacation pictures which would have gotten deleted here anyway? It's hard to even take this proposal seriously. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:44, 29 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, but add a delay, a delay makes life for Commons admins a bit easier as they would be able to verify licenses at the source page in case of improper transfer or questionable/dubious sources. --Denniss (talk) 00:53, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If someone wants to keep a file locally there is a template for it. Otherwise, I do not think we need to discuss at FfD every single instance of a file transfer (for instance, we have file transfer drives every two or three months, and typically several thousands files are moved from here to Commons during every such drive - does anybody really want to discuss all of them at FfD?)--Ymblanter (talk) 09:23, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This would slow down the "move to Commons" process enormously and it would make it very hard to find relevant discussions on the WP:FFD pages since they would be hidden between lots of F8 discussions. I don't see an issue with placing a notice on the uploaders' talk pages. This is already done at Japanese Wikipedia by requiring substitution of ja:Template:コモンズへの移動通知 onto the uploaders' talk pages and could be automated by WP:TW and similar tools. However, people who have uploaded lots of files in the past might not be happy to get hundreds of those notices on their talk pages, and users who want to be noticed about F8 deletions already get a notice on their watchlists about this. A 7-day delay before deletion wouldn't make things more complicated, but I don't really see any need for this. The Soviet claim above is wrong as Soviet files typically are copyrighted in the United States, so the file would also have been deleted if kept locally, unless an appropriate source had been provided. It is the uploader's responsibility to check that the file has an appropriate source, and files without an appropriate source are equally likely to be deleted on Wikipedia as on Commons. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:51, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, though Zzyzx11's proposed 7-day delay would be fine with me. cmadler (talk) 14:19, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. In most cases there is no need to carry the same image on both projects. Where there is such a need, it can be marked with a template.  Sandstein  15:39, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If someone has a problem with their image being deleted locally, they can always just contact the deleting administrator have it restored. —howcheng {chat} 16:23, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Saying that the community as a whole is against Commons is very much untrue. Now, before everybody jumps on mine or any other similarly-worded oppose and says that we support pr0n and what other shit is over there, keep in mind that Commons is being used for other good purposes than what most of the "fuck Commons" crowd is trying to highlight and emphasize to everyone. We may be the biggest project under the WMF umbrella, but that doesn't mean that we need to unnecessarily bully the other projects (Meta being the latest one) around for solidarity's sake; we need to work together, and blatant separatism is not the answer (lest we ultimately desire to break off from the WMF completely). --MuZemike 17:05, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hell no please don't add more red tape to a difficult process. Let us let commons do what it is good at: working with files. --Guerillero | My Talk 18:02, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I see no reasons to forbid deletion of files or introduce a delay. Wikipedia is not a personal photo gallery. Users can use Flickr or another website if they want to have the right to delete or keep files. Why should it be possible to upload photos and demand that we do not delete them or move them as we think fits Wikipedia/Wikimedia best?
What would you say if I introduce a "Do not delete"-template or a "Do not edit"-template and added it on articles and demanded than the article should not be deleted or edited? I bet everyone would say that it is a very bad idea and that authors should not have a veto to prevent Wikipedia from deleting out of scope articles or edit in scope articles. It is anti wiki!
The delay just make the process slower and does not help. Admins should not delete local files unless they are sure that the license and author etc. has been transferred 100 % correct. If we want to give Commons admins a chance to check files they should just have global bit to view deleted files and to undelete to create a correct "original upload log" and to delete the file again. --MGA73 (talk) 18:16, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
+ it is easy to watch the files on Commons. Just add them to your watch list and you will be notified if your files are changed (and therefore also if they are nominated for deletion). --MGA73 (talk) 18:32, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But for that to work you need to add them to your watchlist on Commons, not here. So if someone rarely edits or logs into Commons, they might not know about changes until it's too late - even if they're active here. Are you really suggesting they should log into Commons, even though they might prefer to work only on Wikipedia, just to make sure their pictures aren't deleted? The "just add it to your watchlist" approach would be viable if a) we had a good system for cross-project watchlists (we don't) and b) we expect everyone who ever uploads a picture to know about things like watchlists and {{keep local}} (newbies don't). Nikkimaria (talk) 19:00, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No I suggest you mark "E-mail me when a page on my watchlist is changed" then you get a mail if one of your files are edited. :-) --MGA73 (talk) 19:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't solve the newbie problem. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:36, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No but we can help newbies if they ask for help. Question is if we want to find a solution. --MGA73 (talk) 22:01, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - why try to create more work for editors working with files? MGA73 is absolutely correct in the points they make above. Kelly hi! 20:22, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Even before I saw Magog's comment, my thought was "WHAT?" We already have a big enough backlog of files that should be deleted because they're on Commons; if we repeal the criterion, we're really going to clog up FFD. There is no appropriate way to delete a legitimate and copyright-safe file except through FFD or through speedy deletion. Moreover, the idea of a "keep local" template for articles is irrelevant — {{keep local}} doesn't say anything about quality improvements, and it ONLY is meant to prevent F8 deletions. Find me a blatant copyvio or an attack image tagged with this template, for example, and I'll delete as soon as possible. By the way, Nikkimaria's idea about Commons admins having global viewdeleted rights is impossible — there was an RFC on that idea some time ago, and WMF vetoed the community's support: not because of some crazy policy, but because the developers said that it couldn't be done. Finally, COM:SCOPE isn't supposed to be "in use by someone" — the whole point is that a file be usable for someone. For example, I uploaded File:New Harmony Workingmen's Institute.jpg five months ago and first used it in an article two months ago; it would have been rather awkward and quite inconvenient for it to have been deleted simply because I hadn't started using it yet. Nyttend (talk) 23:39, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, you're right. I'm sorry for misreading the comment by MGA73. Nyttend (talk) 01:23, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Pea-brained proposal. And

Whack!

You've been whacked with a wet trout.

Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

for User:NYKevin for even suggesting such a thing. -FASTILYs (TALK) 04:53, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. There are some, limited, instances where {{keep local}} is useful, i.e. when the images applies to the English Wikipedia only, like when they are status graphs of English Wikipedia WikiProject operations. In cases where the uploader wants to control where the image is uploaded to, tough shit: you gave up that right when you freely licensed it. I also oppose any waiting period; this was in place before and was repealed. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 05:10, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse - Commons is a dysfunctional and vindictive little world dominated by a clique of administrators with a frankly non-educational agenda, cloaked in educational phraseology. As a victim of one of these renegades myself, you'd better damned well believe that I'm looking to have my work protected from those jerks. Ditch F8 en route to ditching Commons altogether. Host images at the language projects. Carrite (talk) 06:23, 1 May 2012 (UTC) BTW Fastily, "Whack" has an altogether different meaning at Commons, y'know...[reply]
If the problem is that Commons is dominated by a clique of admins then why not just motivate 20 or 100 en-wiki admins to give a hand on Commons? That would end "the dominance" and make everything all right (asuming that all admins on en-wiki are all good editors that also know about copyright). Commons could need 100 good users to help so it is a win-win. Problem solved! --MGA73 (talk) 08:11, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Copyright, freedom of panorama, image quality and porn are not a very large part of what we consider in RFAs on this project, so our admins are not necessarily best qualified to help on Commons. Plus we have don't have as many admins as we used to and we can't afford to put a significant extra burden on them. ϢereSpielChequers 09:08, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If one ignores sexually related topics then in my experience Commons works quite uncontentiously, and I rather like the idea that images are shared across all projects rather than reserved for the one they are uploaded on ϢereSpielChequers 09:09, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reset

Clearly everyone (well not quite everyone) thinks abolishing it is a bad idea. I noticed that several users were up for adding a seven-day delay. For a new discussion, vote seven day delay or keep as is D O N D E groovily Talk to me 12:21, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose delay. We have delays for the license-in-question criteria because there's the possibility that things could be fixed; e.g. the uploader could add a source to an unsourced image or a link to a permissions statement for a no-permissions image. With these images, there's nothing wrong that could be fixed in that time. Nyttend (talk) 13:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, playing devil's advocate here, perhaps the uploader will come along and tag it with {{keep local}} during that week. --NYKevin @876, i.e. 20:01, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We have delays for the other criteria to give uploaders the chance to make their images compliant with policy. A good candidate for F8 deletion is already compliant with policy (images not compliant shouldn't be transferred), and thus there is no need for a delay. Nyttend (talk) 20:27, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. A solution looking for a problem. No point in adding another process. —howcheng {chat} 15:55, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If someone think there is a problem with some files or admins on Commons we should look on that on Commons and not make things more complicated here. --MGA73 (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose A 7-day delay would only mean more bureaucracy with no gain. --Stefan2 (talk) 18:29, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose (original proposer) It's obvious that my original proposal has failed. Part of the reason I proposed this is that I feel F8 is too complex. Adding a waiting period certainly won't help that. I'm going to leave the {{rfc}} up for now since I think this secondary proposal has some (very little, but it's been less than a day) chance, but if anyone disagrees, feel free to take it down; I don't mind. --NYKevin @871, i.e. 19:53, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • If I could offer a suggestion that is beyond the scope of this page but certainly relevant, there are several (I think at least two) bots tagging files for upload to Commons. Perhaps they can be tweaked to only tag files that meet certain criteria. For example, maybe files using {{Information}} and lacking either or both of author and date should not be bot-tagged for transfer to Commons. Likewise, perhaps CommonsHelper could be set to give a warning (which could be overridden) when transferring such files. It's often easier to resolve such issues closer to the source (i.e. still on Wikipedia rather than Commons). Thanks, cmadler (talk) 20:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Fastily has retired, so I wouldn't expect his bot to do any more tagging. The other bot, operated by Sven Manguard, presumably depends on a blacklist in Fbot's userspace, but Fastily deleted all userspace pages before retiring, so that might not work. Anyway, an admin is supposed to check that there are no errors before deleting the file, and any errors like that are probably spotted by the admin. --Stefan2 (talk) 21:17, 1 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • OK, now I'm very confused. Fastily commented on my original proposal earlier today (and trouted me for it!), and now (s)he's retired? (Apparently, that really is the case. Sorry!) --NYKevin @102, i.e. 01:26, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for the reasons I stated above. To state this quite bluntly: if someone wants to break out their tin-foil hats about how Commons is supposedly hostile to images Wikipedia isn't, that's fine: they can use the template beforehand. But there is no need for us to encourage that behavior by leaving talk page messages and putting in another layer of process creep. Their images will be accessible here as they were beforehand. Magog the Ogre (talk) 13:47, 2 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose A solution in search of a problem. In particular, I agree with the comments by Nyttend and Magog. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 19:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Exclude moves and merges from R3

At the redirects from discussion, there have been quite a few users who have trouble understanding the idea of redirects created by moves and when they were really created. I propose that we therefore modify R3 to explicitly exclude all redirects created by page moves and merges (aside from vandalism, which is covered under blatant vandalism anyway). Comments? D O N D E groovily Talk to me 02:11, 3 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can't say I delete many R3's, but I would have assumed that redirects created by the original title's having a typo etc is the purpose of r3 in the first place, as opposed to people creating W1k1p3d1a etc, so if you exclude move redirects would there be any point to this? --Jac16888 Talk 21:32, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the logs there are 5 r3s in the last 500 deletions (not including a file), 2 that were created as redirects, 1 that was a cross-namespace redirect so really should have been r1, and 2 that were caused by moves, Grimsby Town F.C. League & Cup achievements > Grimsby Town F.C. seasons and Ammhss edayaranmula > Abraham Marthoma Memorial Higher Secondary School, I'd call both legit deletions really. Although of course this is only a narrow cross section--Jac16888 Talk 21:35, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Grimsby Town F.C. League & Cup achievements is a great example of why this criterion is so badly broken. That page was moved in 2006. There is no possible interpretation of "recently created" that allows that redirect to be speedily-deleted even under the current wording of R3. Yet almost half the R3 speedy-deletions that get executed on any given day have to be restored because editors (and admins) are failing to check the page histories. Most of the other R3s are more recent moves but they are to correct minor manual of style problems with the title. They are not so "implausible" that deletion is deserved. To Jac's point above, redirects really are this cheap. There is no point in deleting the redirect that's left behind after moving a page to correct a typo in the title. Rossami (talk) 14:00, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Jac. While I see the problem you describe, I think a too strict rule would defeat the purpose of R3. How about instead adding a sentence like If the redirect was created as a result of a page move, there is usually reason to assume that the redirect is a valid search term; if you nominate a redirect like that, you have to specify a good reason why this assumption would be untrue in that case.? Regards SoWhy 21:53, 6 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically...

R3. Implausible typos.
Recently created redirects from implausible typos or misnomers. However, redirects from common misspellings or misnomers are generally useful, as are sometimes redirects in other languages. This criterion also appliesdoes not apply to redirects created as a result of a page move (footnote) of pages recently created at an implausible title. However, it also does not apply to articles and stubs that have been converted into redirects including redirects created by merges (footnote), or to redirects ending with "(disambiguation)" that point to a disambiguation page.
  • Footnote: Page moves are excluded due to a history of improper deletions of these redirects. A move creates a redirect to ensure that any external links that point to Wikipedia remain valid. If we delete these redirects, it will result in dead links on these other websites, which reflects poorly on Wikipedia. Such redirects can be deleted if the page was moved very recently, but they must be taken to Redirects for discussion to do so.
  • Footnote: See Wikipedia:Merge and Delete for an explanation as to why redirects created by merges can not be deleted in most cases.

D O N D E groovily Talk to me 14:25, 7 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would support this tightening up. Also if we don't do this perhaps we could define recently as this is open to interpretation from hours to a year. And thirdly it should apply to images as well that are moved. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:41, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've spoken on this topic before, and I still think that this would lead to a large number of entirely unnecessary RfDs. See the latest archive for a few demonstrative, but by no means exhaustive, list of utterly hideous page titles that have no business existing for any longer than the time it takes to move them and zap the redirect. There are a very large number of these pages that get created like that, and the solution here is to conjure something up that, when the tag is put on the page, will show the logs for the page so we can check everything; that would simplify the process to the point that it would eliminate many of the mistakes currently being made. New Page Triage is working on doing that now, and according to the devs it's not going to be difficult to implement. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I review the logs as regularly as I can. I do not see many at all that are truly "hideous" - most are minor typos or violations of the Manual of Style - capitalization errors, extra words or honorifics, etc. The incremental load on RfD would be minor. Rossami (talk) 22:45, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Redirects are one area where "hideous" is OK, only broken or ambiguous are problems. Redirects are not just for instances where an article can have more than one plausible title, they also enable readers to find their way to the correct name for an article. I frequently move newpages to a better name, often correcting a capitalisation, but I almost always leave a redirect in place, even if the only person who might use it is the person who started the article. Sadly I often see that others will delete even the most plausible of redirects. The only real effect of deleting new redirects created by page moves is that the article author when they return to the page they created will find it deleted instead of merely having its title corrected. If we are going to review the speedy deletion of redirects my preference is that we restrict it to the only deletions that are worth doing:
  1. Redirects to deleted pages
  2. Offensive redirects
  3. Redirects from mainspace to elsewhere
Remember redirects are cheap, and if people are getting someone's name wrong a redrect is an effective way to fix that error. I think we should simply drop the idea of implausible typos as a deletion reason for redirects as it is hopelessly subjective. ϢereSpielChequers 06:48, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed change to CSD#F8

CSD#F8 is already incredibly long - the longest of any criterion that isn't broken into parts. However, there's an issue I see come up frequently in my NowCommons patrol (which is a lot: I have ~40K F8 deletions). The issue is this: the file is possibly unfree, so it automatically doesn't qualify for F8. However, there is no reason to keep it around English Wikipedia, so we must duplicate the deletion process that exists on Commons. My proposal is that we add another bullet under "the image's license and source status is beyond reasonable doubt...":

  • If an image's license or source is unclear or possibly unfree free on Commons but is unclear of possibly unfree on Wikipedia for the same reasons (e.g., lacking proof of permission), and the image unquestionably would not qualify for fair use, and the uploader at English Wikipedia has been notified about any deletion discussion on Commons, and all of the other criteria under F8 have been satisfied (e.g., it is not marked {{do not move to Commons}}), then it may be deleted. Please take care to avoid deleting an image that may be OK as free on Wikipedia but not OK as free on Commons (e.g., {{PD-US-1923-abroad}}, {{FoP-USonly}}).

This would save some of the headache of keeping an image around on Wikipedia just for the sake of process, which happens pretty often. Thoughts? Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:26, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support the idea but text may need a tweak. I have also deleted thousands of F8 and I agree that it is duplicating the deletion process is extra work. It would be easier to delete the local file and take the discussion on Commons.
But why should we keep the file just because of the {{do not move to Commons}}? We should keep it if it is ok for en-wiki but not ok for Commons. But sometimes a {{do not move to Commons}} is added by a mistake. --MGA73 (talk) 19:53, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Because that's already one of the other criteria. If it was added by mistake, then we can just handle it like we always handle a mistaken add: WP:IAR and delete. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:34, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I mostly support the idea, but since I frequently propose fair use images for deletion for failing WP:NFCC, I know how difficult it may sometimes be to determine if a file qualifies for fair use or not. If in doubt, duplicate with a WP:PUF or WP:FFD process instead. --Stefan2 (talk) 22:41, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    So which is it? If in doubt, have a single discussion, or if in doubt, duplicate? Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry for being unclear. If it is obvious that the photo wouldn't qualify for fair use, I think that one discussion would suffice. Discussions saying "see Commons discussion" remove focus from other discussions, and sometimes images are discussed at both places, making discussions difficult to follow. If it is not entirely obvious whether fair use applies, consider duplicating the discussion by having it at two places. --Stefan2 (talk) 13:47, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed addition to A7

Unremarkable film. There's a criteria for Unremarkable web content and Unremarkable club etc., but no criteria for films with no meaningful media coverage/no major awards/no notable actors/no notable associations/no assertions of notability/etc.. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 04:51, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This concerns me. There is enough misuse of the A7 criteria as it is. How would you phrase this unremarkable film clause? D O N D E groovily Talk to me 04:53, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's generally true that if the actors, producers, director, film studio, and distributor are all redlinked, the film is almost definitely non-notable. But there are two reasons I wouldn't use that as a speedy criterion: Firstly, most such films in recent times will be distributed solely via the web, and can already be deleted under A7; and secondly, I have come across films that are very old and/or foreign that would meet that criterion, but are actually notable. I have certainly found non-notable non-internet films and sent them through very uneventful AFDs, but I never had the impression that they were terribly common. Is this really a common enough issue to warrant changing the criterion? Someguy1221 (talk) 05:08, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that if it is distributed in the physical world, a film is likely to deserve a discussion rather then summary deletion under a CSD criteria. Analyzing the notability of actors, awards, associations etc, is beyond the scope of what a CSD decision should be. Monty845 05:26, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per New criteria criterion #3 "Frequent", can you point to a number of AfDs where such films are SNOW deleted? Do you find WP:NFF inadequate? Which films fitting "no criteria for films with no meaningful media coverage/no major awards/no notable actors/no notable associations/no assertions of notability/etc" do not fit under "undistributed films"? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:01, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • No thanks There is a grave danger of this being wildly misused. I've come across taggers in the past whose definition of an unremarkable film was "not from Hollywood". ϢereSpielChequers 06:55, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I did mention "etc.", the case I was thinking of was an article about a film with a stated budget of $1500 with no media coverage found anywhere, no concurrent coverage of any of the principals involved and no proven indication of web distribution plus WP:NFF did not seem to apply. It just kind of struck me as interesting that there was a named A7 option for all of the following: Unremarkable people/groups/web content/website/individual animal/club/company/organization but nothing for film. I admit it, I'm not all that familiar with the intricacies of CSD or PROD, was just trying to deal with what I considered un-encyclopedic content. I thought it would be useful to have an addition/update to A7 but I'll just use the "Custom" option next time I run into a similar situation if folks are so opposed.Shearonink (talk) 18:02, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the reason is that with the possible exception of "animal", all the others in the list happen on a daily basis. The people who frequent this page are always hesitant to add new types of articles to delete unless it's a real problem. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:21, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just the prevalence of the topics within A7's reach but how often those topics are used for unremarkable articles that warrants inclusion in the list; this does not fall into that category. It's in the very nature of people to post about themselves, their pets, friends, groups, organizations and their webpages. It is not nearly so common for people to try to create articles on unremarkable films. In other words, if you looked at 1,000 of the last articles posted about people that did not indicate importance, and 1,000 of the last articles posted about films that did not indicate importance, you'd find that a much higher percentage of the films were actually notable, even if the people did not indicate the importance in what they wrote. That's a good reason not to add this to A7s ambit.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:55, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. Like I said, I confess my unfamiliarity with CSD/PROD but the subject came up in -help so I thought I'd ask about it here. Thanks for everyone's help. Cheers, Shearonink (talk) 00:13, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed change to A7

A7 currently states:

"An article about a real person, individual animal(s), organization (for example, a band, club, or company, not including educational institutions), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant [...]"

I propose we refactor this to make the educational exception clearer. I read A7 twice when proposing a school for speedy deletion and managed to somehow skip over the educational institution bit both times, with it being both under-emphasised and part of a list of things that are inclusive not exclusive.

I propose the following text instead:

"An article about a real person, individual animal(s), organization or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant, with the exception of educational institutions [...]"

...or something similar (better proposals + feedback v. welcome). -Rushyo Talk 15:00, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • The wording was changed to "educational institution" rather than "school" as a result of this discussion. Basically the word "school" has different meanings in different areas, and the reasons why A7 doesn't apply to schools also work for other educational institutions. Hut 8.5 16:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gone ahead and made this change since there seems to be broad agreement after one week -Rushyo Talk 20:52, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A10 - Gx

Having quite recently had to send Category:Place of birth Detroit Michigan USA (living people) and Template:Principal cities of Czech Republic to XfD, I'm wondering why A10 isn't a general criterion; Articles which duplicate an existing article, categories which duplicate an existing category, templates which duplicate an existing template... etc. - filelakeshoe 15:40, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Template duplications can be deleted under T3. The category you linked is a bit of a weird case, it seems to be a misplaced attempt at creating an article by a SPA. I can't imagine that happens very often. If we were to extend A10 to all spaces it would need at least need an exception for user space (sandboxes) and probably project space as well. The benefit of doing it would also be quite small, as existing criteria cover most of the namespaces (P1, F1, G8, T3) Yoenit (talk) 16:22, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

DB-G10 template

Right now, {{db-g10}} implements the "This page has been blanked as a courtesy" message if the page size is below a certain level. Would it work to place <!-- at the end of the template code, so that it automatically blanked everything below the template? I'm guessing that this would not hide the deletion categories, since they're part of the template, and I don't think anything goes wrong with a page with an unclosed tag of this sort. Nyttend (talk) 20:56, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that would work if the template was prepended to the page. Excellent idea. →Στc. 21:41, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
<!-- does not work, see User:Monty845/Sandbox2. Monty845 21:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We could use the implementation from {{Copyviocore}}: <div id="copyvio" style="display:none;">. Why not apply it to G3 and G12 while we are at it? Monty845 21:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Strange how [2] works, though. Well, the div tag suffices. →Στc. 21:56, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
<!-- works on the page its used, but appears not to be effective when transcluded by a template. Monty845 21:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Applying it to G12 would be unhelpful unless I'm misunderstanding something — wouldn't it prevent the Duplication Detector from working? Nyttend (talk) 02:47, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No actually, duplicate detector ignores the div hiding trick. For example this report. Monty845 06:07, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, okay — in that case, I have no objections. Nyttend (talk) 11:56, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

suggest a bot to fix image articles instead of having them all erased

This is now being used as an excuse by one user to go around and try to delete large numbers of valid image articles created years before this rule was here. Images that are already in a category such as Category:Comic book covers are obviously fair use, and have the exact same valid rational that could be pasted into them.

Description
cover of comic book
Source
(insert name of comic book article that has the image linked into it, and you thus get the name of the comic book) issue
Portion used
Book cover only, a small portion of the commercial product.
Low resolution?
yes
Purpose of use
to show the cover of the first issue of a comic book series
Replaceable?
none

Can we do that automatically to everything? Or the bot/program that people use to rapidly tag things, could they just include a tag for things like that? If its obviously the cover of a book, comic book, album, film, video game, or whatever, then just click which it is, and you can get the default rational appear. There are thousands of cover art images used in Wikipedia articles for years now, which don't have the rational yet, and if no one is around anymore to notice in time, then perfectly valid images will get deleted. Dream Focus 14:52, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's not practical for an automated process to be able to determine if an image can be legitimately tagged with a non-free use rationale. But, that's not a big problem because I don't think that's what you're asking for. What I think you're asking for (and would be practical/easy) is if someone came up with a list of articles (either make your own list or just point to a category, if possible) and the bot would add a NFUR to each image. However, in order for this to work, there are two problems that would have to be overcome:
  1. We'd have to be reasonably sure that every image in the list/category actually has a non-free use rationale. There should be no (or very few) false positives.
  2. It will not be trivial to figure out the "Source" field as you've described it above. Not every image will be linked only to the article for the comic book series; some will be linked to multiple articles, some will not be linked to the article on the comic book series (i.e. File:Rulah2401.jpg). Either the source would need to be manually provided for each image (or at least for the images for which the source is not obvious via inspection of the article that uses the image), or some other text would have to be used for the source field.
-Scottywong| chat _ 15:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it implies that all fair use is valid. In many cases, fair use is in fact invalid, see WP:NFCC. A bot would have to assess all of the points in WP:NFCC in order to be able to tell if the file should be proposed for deletion or if a fair use rationale should be added. --Stefan2 (talk) 18:09, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This sounds too subjective and sensitive for a bot task. F6 isn't a recent innovation, it's been around for 6 years. Hut 8.5 18:18, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, if you are afraid of having files deleted, you could scan through Category:Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale and add rationales yourself. As long as you do this within 7 days after the initial tagging, there's no problem. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:00, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is how you refuse to look before you tag. Common sense, if its the cover of a book, comic book, or game, then there is no reason to try to delete it. And since the articles don't tell people anymore that the image in them is up for speedy deletion, no one is likely to notice. Can someone make a bot to tell people that information? Doesn't it already do that if they are at AFD? Dream Focus 19:09, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Be careful with how you use the word "you". You made it sound as if I were the one adding the tags. The majority of the tags in the category listed above were added by a different user. I might have tagged one or two images, but definitely not many of them. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops! My mistake. Both of you have names that start with the letter S and end with a number. Just this one guy is doing a massive amount of unnecessary deletion tagging. [3] Dream Focus 23:17, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CATSCAN can do what you're asking for, e.g. this will list all images in the comic book cover category tagged as having no rationale (there's only 6 at the moment). Hut 8.5 19:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think that this might be a somewhat decent idea, at least in a few cases that Dream Focus has brought up. If half of the work is already done by a human (i.e. tagged with a category like "comic book covers" that will need a NFUR in most cases) there isn't any technical reason why we couldn't, say, have the bot apply a default rationale and also apply a tag saying "This fair use rationale was added by a bot on X date, but it has yet to be verified/improved by a human." Such a tag would keep the page categorized in a "to-be-watched" category but would stop the seven-day clock (or, perhaps, trigger a longer clock, something like 30 days, for the rationale to be verified). This category could also be periodically checked to make sure it doesn't contain images which are uploaded and never used. The trick, of course, would be to define which categories could have a bot watch them and what the default NFUR would be.

This would have the benefit of avoiding instances of WP:BITE where new users are simply ignorant of the need to add a NFUR, and are upset when their image vanishes for some cryptic reason. It would also aid regular users like myself who are just plain forgetful sometimes. (I am always having bots tag my images for deletion on Commons because I type out the license in the description template but then forget to apply an actual bot-readable license template...) —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 19:18, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Can we agree to just eliminate the ridiculous requirement for images that are clearly cover art? Templates like Non-free game cover already list all the information that needs to be listed. Dream Focus 19:20, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Dream, from what I can tell, Stefan is notifying the original uploader of the images when he puts a speedy tag on them. The uploader then has 7 days to deal with it or ignore it. Although, I would have to agree that if an image has an obvious NFUR, it would be highly preferable for an image patroller to add the rationale rather than just to slap a speedy tag on it. -Scottywong| confabulate _ 19:32, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • (edit conflict) Note the formulation of F6: "The boilerplate copyright tags setting out fair use criteria do not constitute a rationale." A bot would not be able to write anything more informative than what is already provided by "the boilerplate copyright tags", the file use and the templates used in the article(s) using the image. It is also necessary to check for compatibility with WP:NFCC#3 (many articles contain multiple covers although only one is needed). If a file is used in multiple articles, it can only be a cover of the subject of one of them, but there may be no way to tell which one without a fair use rationale. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot to mention one thing: if a file is proposed for deletion on Commons, User:CommonsNotificationBot adds a notice to the article's talk page, telling that the file might end up being deleted. According to the instructions, the bot places a similar notice on article talk pages if you tag with a fast speedy tag. Maybe the bot could be adjusted to also notify about DI tags and deletion discussions? When something is tagged as "no source" (for example), there might be no one around who watches the image, and so no one might notice the tag (except for the uploader who gets a talk page notice). Articles are watched by more people. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:45, 25 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How about in addition to posting on article talk, the bot could also post on the Wikiproject talk page? That way, a user would only have to watchlist their favorite wikiproject. Is that doable? D O N D E groovily Talk to me 01:19, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Most tagging is to my knowledge done using WP:TW, so you could maybe also request extra notifications at WT:TW. --Stefan2 (talk) 09:19, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I do not like fair use but now that it is accepted I think that the process should be reasonable. If it is easy to add the relevant rationale it is better to do it than to tag the file. If uploader is long gone then tagging the file will probably mean that the file gets fixed without anyone noticing before the file gets deleted. So for files that has been used as fair use for 1, 2 or 5 years speedy deleting is a bad idea. Perhaps we should send those to FFD?

By the way there is much more than just the few files in Category:Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale. Check out Wikipedia:Database reports/Non-free files missing a rationale (more than 2000). If files on that list is mass tagged then it will probably mean that files get deleted without someone checking properly. So it would be nice if more users helped fix the problem. --MGA73 (talk) 10:34, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say that notification rules should be adjusted by requiring notification on article talk pages if an image is in use in an article somewhere, at least if the uploader is inactive. This is probably useful for all types of file deletion requests, except for F8. Tools such as WP:TW could easily add extra notices without this requiring more work from the tagging user. I also think that any tagging of files for missing fair use rationales should be done slowly as people might not have enough time to write 2,000 fair use rationales in one day. It would be a problem if all files were to be tagged as having no fair use rationale on the same day. --Stefan2 (talk) 15:35, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Question about A7

Does a shopping mall count as a business/organization/etc. for the purpose of A7? I ask because an A7 tag was removed from College Park Mall with the remover saying that malls don't count. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:00, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would think a mall is a company that qualifies under A7. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:08, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would hesitate to use A7 for a mall if there is any indication at all that it is a significant geographical feature, which they very often are. Thparkth (talk) 22:25, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would say a mall is more likely to be property of a company. I think the remover was correct, but mainly because I prefer only to delete really obviously unsalvageable stuff under A7 and this isn't. - filelakeshoe 20:24, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would consider a shopping mall to be more a building than a company, although it is partly both. Buildings generally aren't speediable, so I'd be inclined to agree with the remover. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:40, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Myself, I consider it a business, and i would consider it speediable. The nature is analogous to a real estate development or a hotel--which in one sense is a place or a building, but is also a business enterprise. I consider them all suitable for a7. DGG ( talk ) 02:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Recent A1 addition is not quite right

This recent edit added to A1 an explanatory sentence after the criterion: "If you are able to search for sources, then the article does have enough context. This criteria should only be used when you have no idea what the article is about." I actually like the intent of the edit but the language begs for clarification. The problem as I see it is that if I post an article on Foo that entirely lacks context from the text, I may and very often will be able to still search sources to find context based on the uniqueness or relatively uniqueness of the title of the article. As I said though, I think the edit's intended guidance is good if it can be clarified/narrowed. I tried to think of a replacement and had no problem doing so, but not one that was economical. Your thoughts?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While the change is well-intentioned, it is clearly inconsistent with the rest of the guideline. For example, any article about a named person would survive A1 under this standard, including one with the exact text of the example given in the criterion, as one could simply search under the article title. It's rather hard to envision a situation where searching would be impossible (as opposed to fruitless or unwieldy). Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:24, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So how should we wordsmith it to make it more appropriate? I agree with both the intent of the addition and the criticisms of its current implementation... Jclemens (talk) 16:28, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't like it, but I was thinking of something along the lines of: "A good rule of thumb is, if the text of the entry provides sufficient information for you to compose a search engine query to find targeted sources for the topic without using the title in the search, then context is probably not lacking."--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:42, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think that covers it, but it's a little wordy (Note: I added the A1 clarification being discussed) D O N D E groovily Talk to me 19:33, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer the first - if the title is sufficiently unique to provide context, then A1 should not apply. Note: That does not rescue a title-only "biography" since multiple people share names. The fact that I can compose a google search for 'John Smith' gives me no context to understand which John Smith is intended. (It would also be deletable under A7 so the situation for biographies is moot.) Rossami (talk) 01:33, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"are able to search for sources" is a poor criterion. If the title words are distinctive , one can search. even if it is impossible to figure out what what they mean. Nor is without using the title in the search a good criterion -- for a person or company, there is no other practical search term. "QRS is a the title of an English 20th century novel" cannot be found without using the term QRS, because the set of English 20th century novels is too large to scan, but it does indicate the context. Nor is the name example really a good one--of course multiple people share names, but if the name is sufficiently odd, as it might be for a musician, it may be distinctive. We should revert to the original wording, which has served us adequately. Not having context is too variable to be precisely specified in a single specific manner , but is nonetheless useful on occasion. DGG ( talk ) 02:12, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

F9

Hello.

I am entertaining the possibility that criterion F9 should be merged with G12, and for it to be stated in criterion G12 that it includes files. The general criteria apply to all content (unless otherwise specified), therefore, G12 should cover what F9 covers. 76.251.28.21 (talk) 19:06, 31 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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