Talk:North Macedonia

The Actual Name of FYR(OM)

The currently/temporarily called FYROM has the word Macedonia and that country claims that its origin is from the Ancient Greek Macedonia which is mindblowing. Since this issue is not solved yet, you must NOT call it Macedonia and we all know there are many reasons that prove that this claim is latent. In this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece somewhere the FYR/Skopje is called the Republic of Macedonia and I object to that strongly and I request you edit it as soon as possible. When a country wrongfully claims that its name must contain the word "Macedonia" while this is supposed to be forbidden since the Ancient Greek Macedonians were Philip II or the Great Alexander, known to speak Anc. Greek also proves wrong this latent claim by FYR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeorgeKonovaliotis (talk • contribs) 13:04, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

As this has been discussed ad nauseam on Wikipedia, have a read of WP:MOSMAC.Resnjari (talk) 13:08, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I would suggest reading Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. Dimadick (talk) 19:34, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

FYROM is now official "The Republic of Northern Macedonia", following a vote by lawmakers. 2601:982:4200:A6C:E13B:BCE0:6040:F1E6 (talk) 18:00, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Official name as of today is Republic of North Macedonia, short name is North Macedonia, citizenship is Macedonian / citizen of North Macedonia. --Macedonicus (talk) 18:07, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Republic of North Macedonia

As indicated by Macedonicus above, the name has changed officially. Do we change the titles now, or do we wait for the Greek parliament to also ratify the Prespa Agreement?

This is the link to the Vlada na Republika Makedonija confirming in the Macedonian language the modification of the name. [[1]] Politis

Absolutely NOT. Greece must pass the agreement in its parliament before any changes are made here. The Macedonian state placed a reciprocity clause [2] within its amendment that the change on its side becomes official only when Greece fulfills its side of the agreement. Until that time no unilateral actions should be taken on Wikipedia. Also most likely if and after those changes happen a new WP:MOSMAC by the wider wikipedia community will be needed to hash out the finer details.Resnjari (talk) 21:06, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree that the process is 50% done, however the act of voting on these amendments in the Macedonian Parliament does enable the new name as the official international name of the country effective immediately. So maybe the international name for now can be changed into North Macedonia and the internal one would have to wait until Greece ratifies the agreement. What do you think Resnjari? --Macedonicus (talk) 21:04, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

No, please see below. Once Greece has ratified the treaty and secondary sources have started using it (should happen very fast after ratification), we can also change it. In the meantime there's no reason to change the name. (WP:CRYSTAL and WP:NOTNEWS). Jeppiz (talk) 21:28, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with most of that sentiment, however any changes thereafter should not be unilateral and only done via a new WP:MOSMAC. There are clauses in the agreement about ethnicity and language and its important that those are discussed as well about changes or current conventions on the policy being reaffirmed on Wikipedia. My biggest concerns are on language and ethnicity of Macedonians and how the agreement treats them as some editors, especially those who deny their existence may misuse them to push a certain POV. A MOSMAC will need to hash out those things as well so no denialist POV is pushed about the existence of a Macedonian ethnicity and distinct language. Resnjari (talk) 21:44, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

As a matter of site policy, the article's name can only be changed by a month-long RFC discussion, probably on WT:MOSMAC. I don't think the name change is official (sources have differed as to whether it takes effect before Greece approves a treaty) and COMMONNAME usage certainly hasn't shifted yet, so a move now would be premature in any event. power~enwiki (π, ν) 21:47, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

The notion of id denial will be irrelevant - just as it is now in wikipedia, after Athens signs. The Agreement is quite clear. I think there will be two stages in the process of changing the 'Republic of Macedonia' articles in accordance with what Skopje and the international communities and institutions have agreed. The first and easiest change will be the constitutional name of the country. User:Politis

Changes will only follow via a new MOSMAC on Wikipedia to prevent silliness on the part of some editors who wish to push a certain POV through disruptive editing.Resnjari (talk) 16:58, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Looks good, as soon as Athens ratifies the Agreement and the name is officially adopted by the United Nations, the title of this article and mentions of the country anywhere else can be updated. Well, that simple enough. User:Politis

Athens has ratified North Macedonia Alcibiades979 (talk) 14:10, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Now that the Greek Parliament has ratified the agreement, can we achieve consensus here or is the RfC process still necessary? Hentheden (talk) 14:40, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

News is filtering in of events. Even so a change from Republic of Macedonia to North Macedonia has ramifications for other wiki articles. A wider new RFC or new WP:MOSMAC might be needed to clarify things. Thoughts everyone? Best.Resnjari (talk) 14:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

All the news outlets started using the term North Macedonia the past couple of hours that the deal has been ratified by Greece. So it looks official. I think we need to go ahead and change the name of the article to Republic of North Macedonia Weatherextremes (talk) 15:57, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

According to the last few paragraphs of this BBC story, the name change only becomes official once the Nato accession protocol is ratified. Number 57 16:07, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Which I why asked, but I think that's just a bad formulation: it says that "it will only be used" when Greece signs the NATO accession protocol, which doesn't answer the question of when it comes into legal force. Hentheden (talk) 00:32, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I suggest that this discussion be continued in the new move request thread, or at a new thread at the bottom of the page. People are not going to see this in the middle of the page, and we will likely see further additions at the bottom. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 03:01, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Macedonia is Greek

Alexander the great was greek because he was born in Pella of Macedonia in July of 356 BC. His parents were King Philip II of Macedonia and the Princess Olympiada of Epirus. As king of Macedonia, he continued the work of his father, Philip II, and his grandfather, Amyntha III, capable generals, politicians and diplomats, who successively reformed the Macedonian kingdom and developed it into a major force in the Greek world; in turn, Alexander made it into a global superpower. As a Macedonian he was conscious of his Greek origin. was educated by the aristotelian Greek philosopher and the well-known expressions he made "ουστιν ουν ελλας και η μακεδονια" which means there is no greek without macedonia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Harris232 (talk • contribs) 14:02, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Bore off mate.59.97.118.214 (talk) 18:31, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Yada, yada, yada. To the editor see wp:MOSMAC.Resnjari (talk) 14:22, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

NATO & Greece against the Orthodox Russia... We should write more... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:587:5802:A600:C1E0:C849:F712:47C (talk) 22:13, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Official language

The official language information on the page is actually inaccurate. There is no such language recognized by any other of the countries that have any claims and/or historical connection to the lands that are currently within the artificially created country Macedonia (Republic of Macedonia). The replacement of some Cyrillic characters in the Bulgarian alphabet with western Latin characters to enforce differences with the original script makes neither a new language, nor a new alphabet. The so called "Macedonian" language is still officially a Bulgarian dialect, and we (Bulgarians) have not recognized it as a separate language.

Please correct the error or at least add an explanatory notation. Various historical and lingual sources can confirm the above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.130.250.73 (talk) 13:40, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Spare us the time and read WP:FYROM. Coltsfan (talk) 22:58, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2019

change Macedonia to North Macedonia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/11/macedonias-parliament-votes-to-accept-new-name Mightylizard (talk) 23:11, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

As the article in Guardian clearly states, the name change will take place once Greece ratifies the agreement. So not yet in force, and no change for us to do. Jeppiz (talk) 23:25, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

remarks on today vote in the Macedonian parliament

Name of the country "Republic of Macedonia" should remain unchanged because "Agreement from Prespa" on name matter yet has to be ratified in the Greek Parliament, and according to the Macedonian Law for Implementation of Constitutional Changes, before approval and ratification of the Agreement of Prespa in Greece, changes of the Macedonian of Constitution will not enter into force. So, before final decision in Greece Parliament including the end of the process of ratification of the mentioned Agreement, the name of the country id still "Republic of Macedonia", not new one "Republic of North Macedonia".93.86.1.126 (talk) 00:54, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

To the IP i agree. Admins wont allow a change anyway until the the whole process is done and also it will most likely be through a new WP:MOSMAC on Wikipedia as there other smaller but important details in that agreement that refer to citizenship, ethnicity etc.Resnjari (talk) 02:26, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia's WP:NAMECHANGES rule states that the article title shouldn't change right away. Instead, we have to wait until reliable sources (like major news media) start reporting on the country for reasons other than the name change, and then we should use whatever their consensus is. More generally, the WP:COMMONNAME rule says we shouldn't simply use whatever the official name is, but rather we should use the name that's most commonly used by reliable sources. Pdxuser (talk) 07:47, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with all the previous speakers, the name remains the same for now. Jeppiz (talk) 11:36, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

New name of the article: North Macedonia or Republic of North Macedonia?

What will the new name of the article be after the Prespa agreement is ratified by the Greek parliament? North Macedonia or Republic of North Macedonia? I think it should be the former. The reason the current article is named Republic of Macedonia instead of just Macedonia is to avoid confusion with the Greek region of Macedonia, as well as the greater region of Macedonia. When the name of the country changes, there won't be able to have any confusion, as the name North Macedonia is not used in any other case. It also makes more sense as the articles for all countries are titled according to the short form of their name, ex. Greece not Hellenic Republic, Serbia, not Republic of Serbia etc. Mickwellington (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

North Macedonia, IMO. When time comes, the editors will discuss this and the WP:MOSMAC rule will be updated accordingly. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 07:02, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Also, if/when the page is moved, would the country be sorted (e.g. in List of sovereign states) under M for Macedonia or N for North Macedonia (or R for Republic of...)? Both Koreas are sorted under K on that list, and both Congos are sorted under C on that list, so I'm not sure. Paintspot Infez (talk) 14:24, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

This should be based on a discussion. The closest case like North Macedonia is South Africa - there's no South Macedonia, just like there's no North Africa and they are both named after a geographical entity, so it should be sorted under N. --StanProg (talk) 14:56, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I am Greek. Since the agreement also introduces the NMK as international shortcut it should be named with the agreed constitutional name: Republic of North Macedonia.--Pedia4ALL (talk) 10:10, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 January 2019

The Republic of North Macedonia Now Aldan-2 (talk) 00:33, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 01:08, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Danny, you should listen to the news from time to time. Since June 2018, the Republic has signed an agreement with Greece, which would require the country to change its formal name to "Republic of North Macedonia". Months of internal negotiations, referendums, and political debate followed. Then came this announcement:

• "On 11 January 2019, the Macedonian Parliament completed the legal implementation of the Prespa Agreement by approving the constitutional changes for renaming the country to North Macedonia with a two-thirds parliamentary majority (81 MPs). The international community, NATO and European Union leaders, including Greek PM Alexis Tsipras and Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz, as well as heads of neighboring states, congratulated the Macedonian Prime Minister Zoran Zaev. The British Prime Minister Theresa May described the vote as a "historic moment", while the Kosovar President Hashim Thaçi expressed his hope that the Prespa Agreement, which resolved the Macedonia Naming Dispute, can be used as a "model" for resolving Kosovo's dispute with Serbia as well."

References

We have further coverage in the article Macedonia naming dispute.Dimadick (talk) 17:25, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and the amendment of the change of the Constitutional name "North Macedonia" will enter into force following the ratification of the Prespa agreement and the yet-to-be-signed Protocol on the Accession of Macedonia to NATO by the Greek Parliament. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 19:23, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Albanian language is the 2nd official state-wide language since 14.01.2019

@MacedonianBoy: According to the "Law for use of languages, Article 1, Paragraph 2" the Albanian language is official on the whole territory of the Republic of Macedonia. The law was promulgated in the "Public Enterprise Official Gazette of the Republic of Macedonia", Issue 7, 14.01.2019, which makes it effective since that date. Note that the "official_languages" parameter of template "Infobox country" is for "Languages recognised in legislation, constitution, etc.", not only according to the constitution.

Here's what the Law for use of languages says (non official translation):

Article 1

(1) The entire territory of the Republic of Macedonia and in its international relations is the official language of the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic alphabet.

(2) Another language spoken by at least 20% of the citizens (Albanian language) is also an official language and its alphabet, in accordance with this law.

(3) In all of bodies of state power in the Republic of Macedonia, central institutions, public enterprises, agencies, directorates, institutions and organizations, commissions, legal entities that perform public authorizations in accordance with law and other institutions, an official language in addition to the Macedonian language and its alphabet is the language spoken by 20% of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia and its alphabet, as defined in this Law.

(4) In the bodies of local self-government, the language and alphabet used by at least 20% of the citizens is an official language, in addition to the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic alphabet. About the use of languages ​​and alphabets spoken by less than 20% of the citizens in the units of local self-government, the bodies of the local self-government units decide.

Official text:

Член 1

(1) На целата територија во Република Македонија и во нејзините меѓународни односи службен јазик е македонскиот јазик и неговото кирилско писмо.

(2) Друг јазик што го зборуваат најмалку 20% од граѓаните (албански јазик), исто така, е службен јазик и неговото писмо, согласно овој закон.

(3) Во сите органи на државната власт во Република Македонија, централни институции, јавни претпријатија, агенции, дирекции, установи и организации, комисии, правни лица кои вршат јавни овластувања согласно закон и други институции, службен јазик покрај македонскиот јазик и неговото писмо е и јазикот што го зборуваат 20% од граѓаните на Република Македонија и неговото писмо, на начин определен со овој закон.

(4) Во единиците на локалната самоуправа јазикот и писмото што го користат најмалку 20% од граѓаните е службен јазик, покрај македонскиот јазик и неговото кирилско писмо. За употребата на јазиците и писмата на кои зборуваат помалку од 20% од граѓаните во единиците на локалната самоуправа, одлучуваат органите на единиците на локалната самоуправа.

As you can see, only Paragraph 4 is related to the local use of the language. Paragraphs 1, 2 & 3 is for the country wide use. This Law makes the Albanian language an official language recognized as such in the Republic of Macedonia legislation. Let me know if you have any objections toward moving the Albanian language in the Official languages part of the infobox.--StanProg (talk) 12:54, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

The Constitution still recognizes Macedonian as the primary official language state-wide and only official language internationally speaking, Albanian has extended official usage, but not on the same level with Macedonian, hence in international relations the only official language remains the Macedonian and the formulation - "another language spoken by more than 20%" and "...is official in accordance with this law" makes the law complementary to the Constitution which was the case even before it. The key difference is that Albanian now is official in more government-based institutions & Parliament. I think that there needs to be additional category in the infobox which will be in accordance with the Macedonian legislation for example: "Second State-wide official language: Albanian". If Albanian was de jure second official then I would not write this now. Some smaller Albanian parties did request an amendment to the Constitution that would stipulate Albanian as a second official language, if that ever happens Albanian will be on par with Macedonian, right now it isn't.Macedonicus (talk) 14:02, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Albanian designated Macedonia's 2nd Official Language per Associated Press confirmed by the New York Times on Jan. 15, 2019. Jingiby (talk) 14:17, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Albanian media have been going around with this since 2008, it doesn't mean it's true though. I prefer reading information from legal documents instead of media. Macedonicus (talk) 14:32, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

If it was official, it would be in the constitution. Since you refer to the media, why dont you mention the fact that they (Albanian political parties) still think its not official and on the same level as Macedonian? One of the conditions (which was rejected by Zaev) was making Albanian same as Macedonian. This law is more or less the same to the existing from 2008, the difference is the plaques and the websites (big deal). RegardsMacedonianBoy (talk) 14:36, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

@Macedonicus: The parameter "official_languages" is not only for the official language according to the constitution, but according to the legislation as well, which is the case here. Also the "official languages" is not just for "international relations", but the official languages of the country - country-wide (there is separate parameter for the local ones i.e. used in specific Municipalities). Since yesterday the Albanian language is official in all government institutions, not in "more government-based institutions & Parliament". It was already official in the Parliament before that Law. No need for "additional category in the infobox which will be in accordance with the Macedonian legislation", since "official_languages" definition already includes that: "Languages recognised in legislation, constitution, etc.". Of course the Albanian language should be 2nd in the list of the official languages, and we could add notes regarding the fact, that the Albanian language is official according to the legislation, and may be a note for the Macedonian language that is official according to the constitution and the legislation. You can read the law article above. Also you can check the Decree itself: [3] from the official facebook page of the President of the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia, who signed it. --StanProg (talk) 14:48, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

@MacedonianBoy: The "Official languages" parameter of the "Infobox country" template is not just for the official languages according to the constitution, but also for the ones according to the legislation as well. So this is the exact place for the Albanian language, according to the Law promulgated yesterday. What "Albanian political parties" think is irrelevant. It's not just "plaques and the websites" as you can see in Article 1 "In all of bodies of state power in the Republic of Macedonia, central institutions, public enterprises, agencies, directorates, institutions and organizations, commissions, legal entities that perform public authorizations in accordance with law and other institutions". --StanProg (talk) 14:54, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Did you skip the part with 'in regions where the the population is more than 20%, but different from the Macedonian'? Read better.MacedonianBoy (talk) 15:26, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

No I didn't. This is related to the other languages, which has more than 20% speakers only in specific regions, like Turkish, Romani, Serbian, etc. In Article 1, Paragrah 2 it is explicitly specified that it's about Albanian language, since this is the 2nd language which has more than 20% speakers as a whole in Republic of Macedonia. Other languages except Macedonian and Albanian have less than 20% speakers countrywide. According the the Law there are 2 official languages, and more official ones only in local context i.e. in the specific municipalities. --StanProg (talk) 16:01, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

To summarize:

• Paragraph 1 is for the official Macedonian language
• Paragraph 2 is for the official Albanian language
• Paragraph 3 is for the countrywide (global) organizations (related to Macedonian and Albanian - the language spoken by 20% of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia)
• Paragraph 4 is for the local administration (related to all the languages)

--StanProg (talk) 16:15, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

(outdent) Do we have reliable secondary sources that state clearly that the status of Albanian will be effective across the whole country? I may be missing something, but so far I haven't seen any actual source that says so; the only citable source brought forward above was the nytimes article at [4], but that one explicitly says "Albanian will now be used by state institutions in areas where ethnic Albanians comprise over 20 percent of the population". It may well be mistaken about that, but do we have anything more precise? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:03, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Macedonia's Albanian-Language Bill Becomes Law, Radio Free Europe/Radio LibertyJanuary 15, 2019. Jingiby (talk) 19:09, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise: The last sentence from NY Times "Albanian will now be used by state institutions in areas where ethnic Albanians comprise over 20 percent of the population." is actually something that was added to the Constitution according to the Ohrid Agreement in 2001 (Amendment V), so this is not something new. --StanProg (talk) 19:48, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Under the new legislation, Macedonian continues to be the primary official language, while Albanian, which has until now been an official language only in areas where the minority makes up at least 20 percent of the population, will be used now as a second official one, including at a national level: in administrative, health, judicial, police, and other official matters. Jingiby (talk) 20:02, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Exactly, that is why I propose a change in the infobox, the current depiction is misleading/misguiding as if Albanian is on the same level as Macedonian. If you are an ethnic Macedonian your passport will have Macedonian, English and French but if you are ethnic Albanian in North Macedonia your passport will contain Macedonian, Albanian, English and French. I hope I am clear enough as to explain the difference. North Macedonia will have one constitutive official language for every purpose just like before and two official state-wide languages, and even in the state-wide affairs it won't be 100% equal to Macedonian, hence the need for additional clarification. Macedonicus (talk) 21:47, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

The infobox as it is now does not imply that Albanian is 100% equal to Macedonian - it implies that Albanian is used officially under certain circumstances, which it is according to the new law. The fact that certain passports will use Albanian in them shows precisely this. An official language is a language used by the apparatus of the state; a regional language is a language used within a certain region of said state. To not include Albanian as an official language (even though it is not the only official language) would effectively wrongly downgrade it to a regional language as opposed to what the intention of the law seems to be. --Michail (blah) 21:59, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

I was talking about the Official languages section, Macedonian and Albanian are listed, which is okay, but it would be better/correct if there is a new categorization above this lets say titled as 'Official language for state-wide and international relations' (or some more adequate formulation) which would enlist the Macedonian only and below it another category titled 'Official languages country-wide or state-wide' which would enlist Macedonian and Albanian.Macedonicus (talk) 22:08, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Not good, since Albanian is not nation-wide. Not used on currency, nor the official markings/ uniforms/ signs where there are not 20% Albanians. The law states that, that Albanian is co-official in procedures/ uniforms/ street signs where there are at least 20% population different than the Macedonian. More accurate will be Official language (Macedonian listed), Regional working language (Albanian) and Regional minor languages (Serbian all others).MacedonianBoy (talk) 08:30, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree, that could work too.Macedonicus (talk) 10:24, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

@MacedonianBoy: This is very far from the facts. As stated in Article 2, Paragraph 2 the Albanian language is the 2nd official language in the state. All country-wide institutions are obligated to use it as official. The Albanian language is country-wide language in "In all organs of state power in the Republic of Macedonia" (Article 1, Paragrah 3) and this is far from the definition that you give as "Regional working language". It is official language in the Parliament (Article 4) and in the Government (Article 5). In the court yards the Albanian language is also country-wide official (Article 9). At the notary documents the Albanian language is also country-wide official, alongside the Macedonian - "notary procedures, notarial documents and certificates can be only in Macedonian and Albanian" (Article 10, Paragraph 1) and enforcement agent procedure documents must be in Albanian, if the person speaks that language (Article 10, Paragraph 2). The Personal documents and passports are also in Albanian (20% of the citizens) which is also country-wide use (Article 12, Paragraph 3). The identity cards the names will also be written in Albanian (20% of the citizens rule) - country-wide obviously (Article 13, Paragraph 2). The only exception for country-wide use is regarding the money & postmark stamps - they may not be in Albanian, but they will contain symbols that represent the Albanian (20% of the citizens) cultural heritage (Article 8). For me there's no doubt that according to the new Law, the Albanian language became 2nd official and country-wide language, which puts it exactly in the category "Official languages (according to the legislation)". Of course it's not equal to the Macedonian language, but still country-wide official, not just "regional working". --StanProg (talk) 10:51, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

@StanProg: One tiny fact is being kept forgotten, the article that says Macedonian is the only official one for international relations. Wikipedia is an international relation and as such it falls under that category. Where can I propose the infobox changes though? I strongly feel they are the solution for our situation.Macedonicus (talk) 11:48, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Albanian has equal status as does Macedonian, in the Republic of Macedonia so it should be part of "Official languages" Dark pikachuu (talk) 11:44, 16 January 2019 (UTC)Dark_pikachuu

@Macedonicus: The description of the parameter "official_languages" does not explicitly specify that it's only used for "official languages for international relations". It says: "Languages recognised in legislation, constitution, etc.". Also, I'm not convinced based on the text and the explanation of the Law that Albanian language can't be used for international relations. This is not written explicitly. For that we may need some reliable source. You can propose a change on the talk page of the template. Make sure you ping some of the most active editors of the template - this will attract more attention. For me a good solution is to add the Albanian language after the Macedonian in "Official languages" and with a small note to specify the big differences. In the "Languages" section of the article we can add some more detailed information, based on that Law. --StanProg (talk) 12:07, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Again you skip fact Stan just to push your point. The law says that the other language (Albanian) is official as 'this law defines' and just under that it says in municipalities and regions where Albanians make 20%. Since you do not understand, let me explain. In Struga on the border cross will say Република Македонија and Republika e Maqedonise (same for the uniforms/ street signs/ plaques/ etc), but in Strumica, Gevgelija, Kriva Palanka, Bitola it will say only Република Македонија (same for uniforms/ street signs/etc). The only new thing now, is that they can send a letter or refer to the courts/ government in Albanian. Everything else was as it was. Still dont get it? (If it was equal the Denars would be in Albanian, Macedonians would have Albanian in schools, etc). Regards. Since its not official as Macedonian, the level of usage of the Albanian should be mentioned in the language section, but not in infobox or intro. MacedonianBoy (talk) 16:09, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I understand it pretty well. You are talking about the exceptions from the country-wide use, which are minor. Up until this Law, there was just "AMENDMENT V" from the Constitution introduced in 2001:

AMENDMENT V

1. The Macedonian language, written using its Cyrillic alphabet, is the official language throughout the Republic of Macedonia and in the international relations of the Republic of Macedonia. Any other language spoken by at least 20 percent of the population is also an official language, written using its alphabet, as specified below. Any official personal documents of citizens speaking an official language other than Macedonian shall also be issued in that language, in addition to the Macedonian language, in accordance with the law. Any person living in a unit of local self-government in which at least 20 percent of the population speaks an official language other than Macedonian may use that official language to communicate with the regional office of the central government with responsibility for that municipality; such an office shall reply in that language in addition to Macedonian. Any person may use any official language to communicate with a main office of the central government, which shall reply in that language in addition to Macedonian.

In the organs of the Republic of Macedonia, any official language other than Macedonian may be used in accordance with the law. In the units of local self-government where at least 20 percent of the population speaks a particular language, that language and its alphabet shall be used as an official language in addition to the Macedonian language and the Cyrillic alphabet. With respect to languages spoken by less than 20 percent of the population of a unit of local self-government, the local authorities shall decide on their use in public bodies.

2. This amendment replaces Article 7 of the Constitution of the Republic of Macedonia.

This amendment was replaced by the "Law for use of languages" which has 24 times more text, so your theory of "Everything else was as it was" is very far from the truth.

Here's the official explanation of the Article 1, Paragrahs 1, 2 & 3 which are related to county-wide use of the Albanian language:

Со член 1 е пропишано дека на целата територија во Република Македонија и во нејзините меѓународни односи службен јазик е македонскиот јазик и неговото кирилско писмо. Исто така, друг јазик што го зборуваат најмалку 20% од граѓаните е службен јазик и неговото писмо (албански), согласно овој закон. Во сите органи на државната власт во Република Македонија, централни институции, јавни претпријатија, агенции, дирекции, установи и организации, комисии, правни лица кои вршат јавни овластувања согласно закон и други институции, службен јазик покрај македонскиот јазик и неговото писмо е и јазикот што го зборуваат 20% од граѓаните на Република Македонија и неговото писмо, на начин определен со овој закон.

which roughly can be translated as:

Article 1 stipulates that the official language of the Republic of Macedonia and in its international relations is the Macedonian language and its Cyrillic alphabet. Also, another language spoken by at least 20% of the citizens is an official language and its alphabet (Albanian), in accordance with this law. In all organs of state power in the Republic of Macedonia, central institutions, public enterprises, agencies, directorates, institutions and organizations, commissions, legal entities that perform public authorizations according to law and other institutions, an official language in addition to the Macedonian language and its alphabet is also the language is spoken by 20% of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia and its letter, in a manner defined by this law.

Do you understand that this makes the language country-wide official or you still insist on the minor currency/postmarks/street/square/bridge names & road signs exceptions? As I said the Albanian language is not equal regarding the use to the Macedonian, but it's the 2nd official on the whole territory of the Republic of Macedonia. It's not official just in regional context. --StanProg (talk) 17:54, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

The Minister of Economy of Republic of Macedonia Kreshnik Bekteshi, clearly says: "Од денеска официјален јазик во Република Македонија е македонскиот и албанскиот јазик." (From today, official languages of the Republic of Macedonia are the Macedonian and the Albanian languages). Бектеши: Од денеска официјален јазик е и албанскиот јазик (ВИДЕО). Any comments @MacedonianBoy and Macedonicus: or the Minister also "do not understand" the Law? --StanProg (talk) 18:57, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

@MacedonianBoy: @StanProg:The minister is an ethnic Albanian AND politician, of course he is going to say that. I will once again say, I don't bother with what people and media say, I only care what laws and legal matter say, they speak louder than any politician or journalist. If two languages are not on a same level, then they should not be in a same category. Again, the solution could be custom made template for North Macedonia, I mentioned the details above. The Constitution is very clear about which official language is more official and which one is less official and Wikipedia needs to portray that as well, but I will not allow a random curious person who googles North Macedonia to get a misleading information that Albanian is on the same level as Macedonian. When they change the constitution in some near or distant future and they do in fact say 'The official languages of the Republic of North Macedonia are Macedonian and Albanian for every usage, both international and internal', then I would be the first one to make the changes here.Macedonicus (talk) 21:36, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with @Macedonicus and well said. Below is a thread about how to address an Albanian name in the article possible within a name section so it deals with the legislation without it being POV.Resnjari (talk) 21:44, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

@Macedonicus and Resnjari: Why does the Minister of Economy lies that the Albanian language is a official language of the Republic of Macedonia? Because he is a Minister or because he is an Ethnic Albanian? If he was Ethnic Macedonian will you believe him? Now seriously. If the politicians (including Ministers) and journalists are wrong, why do you think that your interpretation of the Law is right? It's pretty clear what the Law says. I agree that the two languages are not identical as principles of applying as official languages, just like in other multi-lingual countries, like Belgium, Switzerland, etc - there are always exceptions. In the "Official languages" section of the Infobox, after Macedonian and Albanian languages we can add a note, explaining that the Macedonian is official according to the Constitution and both are official according to the legislation (Law for use of languages). The specifics can be added in the Language section. You don't need to create a separate infobox template for the Republic of Macedonia. It will not even be a template in that case. --StanProg (talk) 22:36, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

@Macedonicus, Resnjari, and StanProg: I agree with StanProg. Just because he is a different ethnicity that does not discredit him. He is the Minister of Economy. We should avoid that type of stereotyping this discussion. @StanProg: I also agree that we should include a note in the official languages section. Vepton (talk) 22:08, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Maybe a note or something like that as you propose @StanProg for the infobox explaining the status of Albanian (propose some kind of wording for this), but not the Alb language name for the state in the infobox and lede, due to reasons as explained above and below in another thread. The Alb name of the state can go into the Name/Etymology section to avoid POV.Resnjari (talk) 22:44, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Here's what I came with: Macedonian (Official on the whole territory of the state and in its international relations), Albanian (Official on a state level (excluding defense, central police and monetary policy) and in the units of the local self-government, where at least 20% of the population speaks the Albanian language). --StanProg (talk) 13:04, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Where would you like to place this, in footnotes to the lead and to the box? For my taste that's far too detailed there; this should go somewhere further down in the body. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:09, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

@MacedonianBoy, Resnjari, and StanProg: Here's an official statement for the most relevant institution - the Government (https://vlada.mk/node/16423):

Законот за јазици ги унапредува правата на сите немнозински заедници и не предвидува нови вработувања, а македонскиот јазик со кирилското писмо останува единствен службен јазик и на цела територија на Република Македонија и во нејзините меѓународни односи

...работата на Агенцијата ќе се однесува на сите јазици...

..Агенцијата ќе ги опслужува општините и другите институции во оние населени места каде што мнозинството граѓани се Македонци. Во тие градови, во случај кога некој граѓанин од албанска, ромска, бошњачка, српска, турска, ромска или друга етничка заедница ќе има потреба од каков бил документ на друг јазик, покрај македонскиот јазик, тогаш Централната агенција ќе им излезе во пресрет на тие граѓани, да им обезбеди услуга на нивниот мајчин јазик којшто најдобро го разбираат...

..Употребата на македонскиот јазик и неговото кирилско писмо е регулирана со ставот 1 од наведениот амандман на Уставот и со Законот за употреба на македонскиот јазик од 1998 година и при тоа македонскиот јазик и неговото кирилско писмо е службен јазик на целата територија на Република Македонија и во нејзините меѓународни односи...

..Законот не воведува целосна двојазичност ниту на целата територија на Република Македонија, ниту во сите области на правниот поредок. Во меѓународните односи, одбраната, централната полиција и монетарната политика, македонскиот јазик е единствен официјален јазик во Република Македонија, што е утврдено со Законот за употреба на македонскиот јазик од 1998 година...

Unofficial translation made by me:

The law on languages promotes the rights for every minority language and does not require new employments, and Macedonian language with its cyrillic script remains the only official language through the entire territory of the Republic of Macedonia and its international relations.

...the work of the Agency will enhance every minority language...

..The agency will service the municipalities and other institutions where the majority ethnic group is Macedonian. In those places, in case Albanian, Romani, Bosniak, Serbian, Turkish or some other ethnic minority has a need of a document in their own native language apart from the Macedonian, the Central agency will provide them service in their native language...

..Macedonian language and its cyrillic script is official language on the entire territory of RoM and in its international relations...

..The law does not bring full bilinguality neither on the entire territory of Macedonia, nor in every aspect of the jurisdiction. In the international relations, defense, central police and monetary policy, Macedonian language is the only official language in the Republic of Macedonia...

Macedonicus (talk) 14:45, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

StanProg, your wording is good. Future Perfect at Sunrise has a point about detail, so we can place it in the language section. Thoughts? Looking at the section it has sentences that needs some upgrading and clarification. The first sentence is this The official and most widely spoken language are Macedonian, followed by Albanian. and the second is this Although it is the only language explicitly designated as an official national language in the constitution, in municipalities where at least 20% of the population is part of another ethnic minority, those individual languages are used for official purposes in local government, alongside Macedonian and Albanian. The other languages are official but not in the same sense as Albanian is now due to the upgrade. Best guys.Resnjari (talk) 21:09, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Agreed. StanProg provides indisputable evidence. I also recommend we modify the info box as well as the first sentence with Albanian as the second official language. Not sure why there is so much objection to this when it is clearly outlined in the official gazette. Vepton (talk) 21:56, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise: This can be added as ref note in the Official languages section of the Infobox, like: Macedonian, Albanian. That way it will not be intrusive and if someone needs more detail, can take a look at the note. After all this "official languages" is for constitutional, legislative, etc. ones, so I think it's good to be clarified there as a note. I'm not convinced if we should or should not include the Albanian as an "Official regional language" in the Infobox, because in a regional context the Albanian is treated the same as all the other languages, except Macedonian. @Resnjari: In the language section we can be more detailed. If we add the Albanian as "official regional", we can skip the "and in the units of the local self-government, where at least 20% of the population speaks the Albanian language" part from the "Official languages" reference note. Locally (per Municipality) the Albanian language is on the same level as all the other minority languages, so we don't need to mentions "alongside Macedonian and Albanian". Regarding the local use, it's more like "alongside Macedonian". --StanProg (talk) 16:04, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

StanProg that's sounds fine. I'm on board with that. Best. :)Resnjari (talk) 22:59, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 January 2019

IMiGraal (talk) 14:30, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

| official_languages = Macedonian
Albanian

Albanian just became the second official language of the country

 Already done programmingGeek(contribs) { this.timestamp = 20:47, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

References

Lead sentence bloat

The worst bad habit of Wikipedians is not POV-pushing, but pedantry. And among the worst forms of pedantry on Wikipedia is lead sentence bloat. As of today, this article has 11(!) name variants, glosses and transcriptions in its lead sentence, up from nine before people added Albanian translations today. This, plus several times the strings "Macedonian" and "Albanian" as language tags. On my screen this makes more than two entire lines of text consisting only of variants of the term "Macedonia", which the reader has to parse before they even get to the defining predicate "... is a country ...". This is not even counting all the coverage of "Former Yugoslav" or "North Macedonia" variants in the rest of the lead paragraph.

This is unacceptable. It's nothing to do with whether or not we want to acknowledge the new co-official status of Albanian. But it can't be stressed often enough: We should not use the mentioning or non-mentioning of a name translation in a lead sentence as a symbolic mark of the significance of this or that language for the topic of the article. The only real criterion for what name variants should be in the lead sentence is what is important and interesting to our (English-speaking) readers. This list needs to be cut down, to (I'd say) maximally half its present length. Other details (including phonetic info, transliterations, translations in the co-official language etc.) need to be moved to a "Name" section further down. I'll probably do that some time tomorrow if and when I find the time; until then I'm open for suggestions about which entries should be prioritized. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:53, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Future Perfect at Sunrise, i agree. The two mini paragraphs that can be removed from the lede are the ones starting with "The country became a member" and "The Prespa agreement" (although maybe the bit about being in the UN might be needed?). Overall too much and wp:undue (especially the second paragraph).Resnjari (talk) 22:16, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about the subsequent paragraphs of the lead section. Those are fine as far as I'm concerned. I was talking exclusively about the overlong list of name glosses right at the beginning of the first sentence. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:18, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

On the bit you refer to, about the lede sentence, other articles have that kind of thing as well. If its removed here, all it would do is encourage some editors who feel aggrieved to edit war over it by adding or removing bits of info. On the paragraphs themselves they are over bloating. There is no need to go on about the Prespa deal in that amount of detail or for that matter the silly name dispute with Greece. The country went through much more in its history and those events are only mentioned in the lede in a limited sense. At the very least the Prespa deal and name issue should be shrunk to a sentence or two and placed in chronological order in the area of the lede talking about its history (not in its current position which is WP:UNDUE).Resnjari (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Future Perfect at Sunrise, I looked around and one article stood out as an example that both deals with the official name and names in other languages that are official in certain parts of the country, but not the whole. See the Spain article they deal with it as a note in the first sentence. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:25, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Seems to me the Spanish solution is a good one. Jonathunder (talk) 23:27, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Another solution is the Switzerland/Belgium one i.e. to be only in the Infobox. --StanProg (talk) 00:03, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Those are good too, but i am also looking at it from the perspective of which example will cause the least edit wars as well. Editors who have an interest on Macedonian related topics may oppose the Switzerland/Belgium model, while those with a focus on Albanian related topics may prefer that. The Spain page example gets to cover those extra names while not causing widespread issues. Editors have pointed out that Albanian is not the official working language of the whole state, even with Albanian becoming an official 2nd language in places that have speakers at the 20% mark and services extended beyond that geographically for certain things.Resnjari (talk) 00:12, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

More discussion is needed for which formula best fits here.Resnjari (talk) 00:52, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with this. The Albanian (and in future other) have legal improvement in the usage of the languages, but still geographically limited. Basically its the old law, which was named Usage of languages on municipal level, not a bit extended and put into new legal frame. The names of the country in other languages other then Macedonian should be put into Name section. The Spain example in the intro paragraph is also good, Macedonian name with notes, but I am more for the Name/ Etymology section. MacedonianBoy (talk) 08:24, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

A name/etymology section can do it too.Resnjari (talk) 08:45, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Usage of Albanian language is no more geographically limited. The law extends the official use of Albanian over the entire country, easing communication in Albanian with institutions like municipalities, hospitals and courts. The previous law defined Albanian as an official language, but only gave it that status in those areas where Albanians make up over 20 per cent of the local population. Jingiby (talk) 12:08, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree that the new law has extended its use over the whole country in that sense, but still its not the official working language like on coinage and so on. Its tricky this because the ramifications are wider. For example in Wikipedia it would be POV (and provocative) to place an Albanian name for all the settlements of Macedonia that do not have an Albanian population, or for that matter municipalities like say Strumica, Delcevo as Komuna e Strumicës or Komuna e Dellçevës for the same reason. I guess for here a name section would be the best way to avoid edits wars, not come out as POVish while still satisfying those that want the Albanian name in an area of the article where its visible, while satisfying others who do not want it pushed in the infobox or lede sentence.Resnjari (talk) 19:56, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

• Official explanation by the Macedonian government regarding the languages:

Законот не воведува целосна двојазичност ниту на целата територија на Република Македонија, ниту во сите области на правниот поредок. Во меѓународните односи, одбраната, централната полиција и монетарната политика, македонскиот јазик е единствен официјален јазик во Република Македонија, што е утврдено со Законот за употреба на македонскиот јазик од 1998 година.

The law does not implement total bilingualism nor on the whole territory of the Republic of Macedonia, nor in the areas of the law regulations. For the international relations, defence, central police and monetary policy, the Macedonian is the sole official language in the Republic of Macedonia, which is regulated by the Law on the Macedonian from 1998

Furthermore, they explain that the law gives the minorities to use their language, and regarding the municipalities where no such minorities exist, but a person may seek a document on a language different than the Macedonian, the Central agency will provide it. This is the new thing in the core. Source: Government of the Republic of Macedonia .MacedonianBoy (talk) 09:05, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Can we please keep this thread on topic? What does that law have to do with anything? We were discussing how to slim down the beginning of the lead sentence, and the precise legal status of Albanian has diddly squat to do with that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:54, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Future Perfect at Sunrise, actually there is a point to touching upon Albanian within this discussion as its an interconnected issue. For a while that Albanian name was in lede and infobox. There are editors that held the view that law meant in its entirety Albanian was a 2nd official language over the whole country hence implying that is was a working government language. That is not the case, however it status has been upgraded significantly. So ramifications about having it in the lede or infobox do not suffice, but still it ought to be included somewhere visible to reflect that reality. Editors are ok with it going into a name/etymology section with the rest of the content. It better editors discuss respectfully of what the law outlines and how to deal with it in wikipedia, then have to deal with silly edit wars in future. Anyway there is support for your suggestions and whenever time permits transfer the content about multiple names into a separate name/etymology section. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Whatever the status of this country's languages, this article is in English. The infobox should be in English, as should be as much of the lede as possible. We can give multiple language versions of the name in the body or perhaps even in footnotes. Jonathunder (talk) 22:33, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

There is a name section in the body.Resnjari (talk) 00:58, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 January 2019

Need to change the official Language, its bilingual now, Macedonian & Albanian are the 2 Official Languages. To be clear, since in 24 hours there has been lot of editing on the official language (s) of this country. This Country is Bilingual (Albanian/Macedonian), & it has also been announced on Reliable medias that its official & that they're starting to make all street signs bilingual. You can easily find reliable sources stating that. There is no such a thing as gossip or mass media saying lies. Just by a research i found out the voting of the Parliament [got voted & Passed 81/120 MP's], And the Speaker of the Parliament posted a picture of himself ans stated that its a law. Its Official! 69.14.238.177 (talk) 21:06, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

No, not in this way. Its more complicated then that and there already is a thread open above on how the deal with these things in a neutral way.Resnjari (talk) 21:11, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Closing out this edit request for now a consensus is needed before this can be implemented via edit requests. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 02:45, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

New Name

I am not of the clearance to edit the articles name but recently Macedonia was officially changed to North Macedonia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aldan-2 (talk • contribs) 05:24, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Greece has to vote on the agreement for it be official as Macedonia placed a reciprocity clause after it accepted changes in its parliament.Resnjari (talk) 22:52, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 January 2019

• add {{R from alternative name}}
  • Reason - Macedonia naming dispute uses the term. Widefox; talk 20:31, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

 Done ~ Amory (u • t • c) 23:04, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Name change completed on 25-01-2019

Hi, according to Athens-Macedonian News Agency (amna.gr) and many other international media, the Greek Parliament has ratified the Prespa treaty (153 YES, 146 NO, 1 ABSTAIN), hence, Constitutional Changes in FYROM take immediate effect. Constitutional name is now "Republic of North Macedonia".

https://www.amna.gr/en/article/328428/Prespes-Agreement-ratified-by-the-Greek-parliament https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/25/world/europe/greece-macedonia-name-change-protests.html https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/greek-parliament-approves-macedonia-190124060302464.html

Demonym(s) update

Now, that the Prespa agreement is ratified, we need to discuss the updating of the Demonym. We can use dual demonyms (North Macedonian, Macedonian), like in North Korea and South Korea, indicating the Nationality/Citizenship and the major population ethical group, or to use a single demonym (North Macedonian), like South Africa & South Sudan, indicating only the Nationality/Citizenship. Any thoughts? --StanProg (talk) 14:55, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't think that's an issue that is going to change as Article 1 Section b of the agreement clearly states that the citizenship will be Macedonian/Citizen of the Republic of North Macedonia. Since this is too long to be used as a demonym, it's very likely that the demonym "Macedonian" will remain pending adding of a note that clarifies it's in fact "Citizen of the Republic of North Macedonia". "North Macedonian" has never been negotiated and can be safely rejected as original research.--Mastersource (talk) 15:22, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

You have a point. Maybe we should wait on that update. --StanProg (talk) 15:52, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

"Macedonian/Citizen of the Republic of North Macedonia" is the correct one. Xaris333 (talk) 15:50, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

When referring to governmental bodies or other state institutions, the term North Macedonian replaces Macedonian (e.g. North Macedonian Foreign Ministry, North Macedonian Passports, North Macedonian Prime Minister). But when referring to the citizens, they will be called simply Macedonians, or Macedonians plus the necessary clarifications (e.g. Ethnic) if the article/section they are mentioned in, does refer to more than one Macedonian people (e.g. Ethnic Macedonians, Greek Macedonians), to avoid any possible semiological confusion. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 16:26, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Republic of North Macedonia

Republic of North Macedonia is the new name after today vote in greek Parliament 195.130.87.150 (talk) 16:24, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

According to the last few paragraphs of this BBC story, the name change only becomes official once the Nato accession protocol is ratified. Number 57 16:34, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Note to everyone : WP:ARBMAC applies

Now that both parliaments have passed the compromise agreement, I personally favour a relatively swift name change on Wikipedia. However, seeing that some want to do it immediately, please keep in mind that WP:ARBMAC applies. The correct order is to first request an update of ARBMAC, and then of this and other related articles. Again, this is not a comment on the name as such, just a reminder that unilaterally pressing for a change prior to an update of ARBMAC is to put the horse before the cart. Jeppiz (talk) 16:55, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

My thought is that we should probably do the renaming of this main article via a simple RM, as it is likely to be fairly uncontroversial once the renaming has officially taken effect, but follow-up changes in other articles should be prepared via a more systematic RfC. Both could be started soon, as far as I'm concerned. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:40, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

The name change here can be done as soon as the name change is finalized. As both parliaments have raitifed Prespa, this probably won't be long, but for now the country is still R.O. Macedonia/FYROM. Whether or not ARBMAC should not hinder this move, and should just be changed alongside. 18:25, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

In the meantime, some protection mechanism might still be useful. Other-language pages, e.g., de:Mazedonien are a mess right now, with constant back-and-forth piecemeal changes leading to such bizarre constructs such as “Macedonia, also Macedonia.” Is there any proper way to prepare a new page with all references (incl. in Macedonian and Albanian) updated to the newly-agreed name — and then drop that in place in one fell swoop once the name has really, officially changed? —ThorstenNY (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

My opinion is that this article should be fully protected until the ARBMAC is updated. There will be a lot of edits and reverts in the next few days. --StanProg (talk) 21:33, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes i agree wholeheartedly. Suggestion on my part, can admins place something in the protection template explaining to editors who might want to make edits on the name issue not to do so until such time as the finer details are sorted out and updated in ARBMAC. Best.Resnjari (talk) 02:35, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

The note at the top of this talk page seems to make it pretty clear that if there is consensus that the name has changed, edits can be made to reflect that name change. I think we would be correctly applying ARBMAC to proceed with that understanding. If that process ends up being used as cover for unproductive POV-pushing or edit-warring behavior, that will be an issue for ARBMAC to address. -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:27, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Language question

Can somebody help me sort this out about the languages? I want to do it the infobox like the infobox in the article for Spain, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain, the official and national language to be the Macedonian language, with a clarification note, and the Albanian to be as co-official, also with a footnote for clarification. Sashko1999 (talk) 19:03, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Use your Sandbox before making changes to the article. There you can experiment with changes until you find the correct way for the notes, and then you can place it in the article as a single editing Bes-ARTTalk 20:01, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Sashko1999 I've placed a request on the infobox talkpage [5] about extending a category so the other languages come up. Overall i think the rest is fine.Resnjari (talk) 01:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Hello! I need to make certain recommendations for improvement of this page. After the recent resolution of name dispute between Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and Greece the name of this page should change immediately, as well as of all links that might direct to this page. Moreover, the government of Northern Macedonia has issued a diplomatic document to Greece where it clarifies that the term Nationality in Prespa agreement refers strictly to citizenship and not to national identity. As a result, any page referring to Macedonia Ethnic Groups should be renamed to "People identifying themselves as Macedonians/Citizens of Northern Macedonia as clearly stated in Prespa agreement.

Best Regards, Docm_kosmo

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 January 2019

Should the footnote of Albanian Language be: "The Albanian language is co-official at a state level (excluding defense and monetary policy)? Because I read this article which states: "The measure boosts the use of the language at the national level, including in administrative, health, judicial, police, and other official matters." 69.14.238.177 (talk) 21:39, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

References

Requested move 26 January 2019

Republic of Macedonia → North Macedonia Greek ratified the agreement. --Sharouser (talk) 01:28, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

• I am a Greek. The agreement was ratified by the parliament but the protocol for NATO acccession of North Macedonia willl be ratified in a few days. The AgGreement stipulates that until this ratification the renaming does not come into effect. But, in fact the page can be renamed now.--Soccererer (talk) 02:54, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• The question does not seem to be if but when. Do we wait for NATO? Certainly we must wait for ARBMAC, though it doesn't seem like it will be controversial. I would propose Republic of North Macedonia, with North Macedonia as an alternate name, then see how that plays out in terms of usage. At any rate, there are a few related discussions above, and perhaps we can consolidate them here under the RM. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 03:16, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait: The name refers to a proper noun that will become outdated, and therefore inaccurate, once the renaming takes effect. However, per nom, the agreement requires that the NATO accession protocol be ratified before the renaming becomes effective. We would be jumping the gun by moving the article now. Once the renaming officially takes effect and there is no longer such an entity as the Republic of Macedonia, I would support a move to North Macedonia. -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:19, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Move: I also support a move to North Macedonia. Waiting until the NATO protocol is ratified is one option. At the same time the constitution of the country has officially been ratified under the Prespa Agreement and now reads the Republic of North Macedonia so changing it now would probably not be controversialWeatherextremes (talk) 07:18, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

  Have you seen the actual amended articles of the constitution? As far as I know, they may specify that the name does not go into effect until the Prespa agreement enters into force, or until the NATO protocol is ratified. Would like to know that actually. GeoEvan (talk) 11:08, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

• Move: I support the move. There is no sense to wait anymore. W00lyt (talk) 09:19, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

  Just to add that according to this Greek article [6] the NATO protocol ratification by Greece would take place around two weeks from today. With Greece's ratification, the Prespa Agreement will come officially into force Weatherextremes (talk) 08:01, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

• Might the best solution be to create a new article? Let us not forget that there are Wikipedia articles for countries that no longer exist such as Kampuchea and Rhodesia, even if there were no boundary changes which coincided with the name change. Dovea (talk) 08:28, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't think that's a good idea here. There's not only no boundary changes, but there's essentially no other change either. No change of regime, no change of constitution, no change of flag or other symbols; it's really just the name alone that changes. It's still, to all extents and purposes, the same state as before, not a new state on the same territory. If there were two articles, virtually all the contents would have to be duplicated between them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:05, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
    • Comment: The agreement actually does forbid the use of the Vergina Sun as a public symbol by North Macedonia. However, it doesn’t change the political system of North Macedonia. I believe the differing political systems are why the Kampuchea & Rhodesia articles exist, so I don’t see any reason to create a new article. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 10:17, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
• Move: I support the move. The process is 85% finished, I don't think there is a need to wait even longer. Macedonicus (talk) 09:09, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait: We should not ever be changing official names before they're officially changed (and actually, the text of the the Prespa agreement says it enters into force once the two countries' governments notify each other within two weeks of the last ratification - it says nothing about the NATO protocol having to be ratified first; see here [7] Article 20(4)).

  In addition to that, if the article is to be moved to North Macedonia rather than Republic of North Macedonia, since it's the norm for country articles to be located at the countries' common English short name (I presume Republic of Macedonia is a special case because of the need for a compromise in relation to the name controversy), then we need to first establish that North Macedonia is indeed the name in predominant use among reliable sources. My suggested procedure would be to (1) move to Republic of North Macedonia once reliable sources indicate that the name change is in effect (which they have not yet - on the contrary, see sources such as this one: [8]), and (2) if and when it becomes clear that the short form North Macedonia is the name predominantly used in reliable sources going forward, then and only then should the article be moved from Republic of North Macedonia to North Macedonia.

  GeoEvan (talk) 11:05, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Do we really need to over complicate things like that? Short name as per the agreement is North Macedonia. --Macedonicus (talk) 14:06, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Macedonicus here. IMO once the country is officially renamed to 'North Macedonia' we should just use the short name. — Tom^(T2ME) 15:48, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

The Prespa Agreement is very clear: The country's full name is "Republic of North Macedonia" and the country's short name is "North Macedonia". Plus, the demonym for state institutions, laws, papers, and bodies is "North Macedonian", and demonym for Citizens themselves is "Macedonian/Citizen of North Macedonia". --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 18:22, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

• I think we should take into account whether or not a move now would be controversial or not as well. We know for a fact that the constitution now reads Republic of North Macedonia and only there are only a few formalities until the agreement enters into force. What is the point of actually waiting? It will happen. The political process is over. Now it is only a matter of formalities. Weatherextremes (talk) 11:20, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait is the only allowed option per policy. Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS and changing the name of a country before it has actually changed is a definite no. Jeppiz (talk) 11:27, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes but the name has changed! That is my point. The constitution of the country now reads Republic of North Macedonia. What has not happened is the Prespa Agreement entering into full force. Weatherextremes (talk) 12:03, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: Nope. It has not. The Legal procedures for the Name Change will be completed the moment the Greek Parliament ratifies the NATO Accession Protocol for the Republic of North Macedonia. Only then the Prespa Agreement goes into full force. Until then, it is still "Republic of Macedonia". This is due to eight Macedonian MPs of the Assembly of Macedonia (who defected from VMRO-DPMNE) conditioning the starting date of the Prespa Agreement on Macedonia's entry to NATO. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 18:19, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

• Most definitely Wait a little bit more per the comments above. It won't hurt anyone to take our time. We should think this good before we take the next move. Creating a new article for a same country with a different constitutional name seems pointless to be honest. But yeah, for the rename, maybe just wait a little bit more. — Tom^(T2ME) 11:33, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait and move once we have evidence that the renaming has officially taken effect. This might be a matter of days or a few weeks, as far as I can see. GeoEvan's argument above, that we should first wait to see how English usage reacts in practice, is well taken; however, since the article is now titled according to the current full official name, we know for a fact that this current official name ("Republic of Macedonia") will no longer be correct, so whatever English usage does, the article can't really stay here. If we had gone for "Macedonia" pure and simple earlier, there'd be a case to make that there's a realistic possibility English usage will still continue to use that as an informal short form and that therefore the article should stay until there's evidence to the contrary, but with "Republic of Macedonia" I don't see that working. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:16, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Move: It is de facto the new name of the republic. Chances that the agreement be undone are almost zero. Bes-ARTTalk 13:58, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Move: The Parliament of the country changed the constitution so now it is officially called North Macedonia.--Udha (talk) 14:02, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait / Comment: We know that both parliaments ratified the agreement. But can anyone with intimate knowledge of the constitutional proceedings of both countries and Prespa Agreement tell us when is actual date when it comes in force and Macedonia is officially renamed to Republic of North Macedonia? From what I understand the constitutional amendement has not yet been submitted to President of Macedonia for signature and generally these things come to force only when they are made public in list of laws. EllsworthSK (talk) 14:32, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@EllsworthSK: the Speaker of the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia, Talat Xhaferi, made it clear that this won't be a problem; if President Ivanov refuses to sign, the Speaker can do so in his place and then have it published in the Official Gazette. And so he did. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 17:59, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

• Wait and commence a discussion on renewing Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia) with a move after consensus has been reached on updating MOSMAC.Resnjari (talk) 14:37, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Move: The change is de facto complete. Spare us the flame. Andreas George Skinner (talk) 16:17, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait: The agreement should first be signed by the President, and (according to rumors inside New Democracy), there is a chance that Pavlopoulos will resign over the agreement. I am here to contribute (talk) 17:03, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@I am here to contribute: sorry but these are Fake News. President Prokopis Pavlopoulos is in favor of the Prespa Agreement and New Democracy is just becoming the Greek version of VMRO-DPMNE: A populist political party. Current New Democracy president was exposed a month ago by German media that he told his European partners he is secretly in favor of the Prespa Agreement too but due to the upcoming elections, he doesn't want to admit it publicly. You get an idea of how unreliable this political party has become lately. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 18:06, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

• Wait for ratification of NATO Accession Protocol, then move: the Prespa Agreement (and change of Constitutional name) goes in force only once all the legal procedures are completed (they complete with the ratification of the NATO accession protocol by Greece). According to the sources, Constitutional amendments for renaming the country into North Macedonia, are conditioned (per demand of the 8 defected VMRO-DPMNE MPs of the Macedonian Parliament) on the ratification of the NATO protocol by the Greek Parliament first. This move will be a mistake if done now, while the legal procedures are not completed yet. The country still is "Republic of Macedonia" officially. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 17:45, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait Amendment to Macedonian constitution hasn't been published yet and they are still not in force. Also process of ratification of the Prespa Agreement is not finished. Wikipedia needs reliable sources say that the new country name has come into force. Aotearoa (talk) 17:55, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@Aotearoa: sorry, the Amendments to Macedonian Constitution were already published in the country's Official Gazette as this is a condition for the Verbal Note to be sent by the Macedonian Foreign Ministry to Greece;s Foreign Ministry. The Name Change procedures will be completed, not with publication in the Official Gazette, but on the condition that the NATO Accession Protocol is ratified by Greece the coming weeks (per request of 8 Macedonian MPs from VMRO-DPMNE). --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 18:13, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

• Wait and move after all legal procedures are ended. Jingiby (talk) 18:07, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait till the renaming process ends. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:09, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait and move:. I am Greek. Let's wait a little for the secondary sources to update with the name and the legal procedure to end. The Greeks and the Macedonians had to wait 27 years for this to happen, surely some temper for this ravaged and warred to death article is prudent. Dante 80 (talk) 18:18, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Comment This discussion is being linked to on outside resources (including Reddit) for the sake of brigading, take that into consideration.--Catlemur (talk) 18:41, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Hmm, that's weird. Why would people out there on Reddit believe this discussion is in need of canvassing? I know we had all sorts of external shenanigans back in 2009 when there was the question of moving to plain "Macedonia", but now, what's their beef? Which direction are they trying to push it in? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:48, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

 Comment:: I am afraid this Move Request came early. The Prespa Agreement will go into full force by 8 February 2019, once all the legal procedures for the Constitutional Name changes are completed. [9]

• The President of the Hellenic Republic, Prokopis Pavlopoulos, will sign the law on the Prespa Agreement and then it will be published this Monday 28 January 2019 in the country's Official Gazette and information will be sent to the NATO Chief Jens Stoltenberg that it has been ratified.
• Then the NATO's 29 permanent representatives will sign the North Macedonia accession protocol to the Alliance and this will be sent to the capitals of the 29 countries for ratification by their national Parliaments.
• Then the Greek Parliament will ratify it first (and before all other national Parliaments) and, after Athen's ratification, a verbatim note will be sent to the Republic of Macedonia that Greece has ratified the NATO admission protocol.
• Skopje will send to Athens and the United Nations Secretariat, information that the agreement comes into full force and at the same time Skopje will send a formal letter to all the UN member states and international organizations that the country's new name is North Macedonia and will be recognized by that name, from that day and on.
• After that, the President of the Hellenic Republic will sign the NATO Accession Protocol of North Macedonia and send the relevant verbatim note to Washington and NATO (which is the guardian of the agreement) to complete the legal process.

--👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 19:01, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

• • Thanks for the info. That's two weeks ahead then, just the right time frame for a good thorough move discussion. There shouldn't be a problem with keeping this RM open or on hold until then. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:08, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait and move. Though it's not entirely improper to propose a move before official usage changes, it should go without saying that if the result is "move", the move itself should not be implemented until the name becomes official. Unlike with the Czech situation, it's unlikely there will be any controversy over the eventual move. ONR (talk) 19:04, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait and move I'm in favor of waiting until it is official, since that should not be long. Also I agree with GeoEvan above that the first step should be to "Republic of North Macedonia." For one thing, a snap shot of RS's right now would show a predominance of reports that the country changed its name to RNM, and few that have gotten around to referring to it as NM yet. In time, sources will likely shorten it to North Macedonia, but strictly speaking the full name would likely be the most common usage for the time being. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 19:07, 26 January 2019 (UTC)*

Comment The constitution of North Macedonia has changed. It is de facto the new name. Here is an example of why the move needs to happen. This is from Israel's Foreign Affairs Ministry which from yesterday lists North Macedonia with the new name. So even though the Prespa Agreement has not entered into full force the name is already de facto North Macedonia [10] [11] So I am pretty sure that if Israel's diplomacy considers it safe to use the name from now they know something dont they? I mean they are a Foreign Affairs Ministry. Weatherextremes (talk) 19:31, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I prefer to look at the Macedonian Foreign Affairs Ministry since it is about them..... --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 20:17, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

• Wait for official renaming and move when the country officially changes its name. Also Comment what should the demonym be? North Macedonian? Is the Macedonian language now the North Macedonian language? ― Дрейгорич / Dreigorich Talk 01:32, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Comment: The demonym is North Macedonian when referring to the state (eg. the North Macedonian Prime Minister). The deal says that the RoM cannot use the term 'Macedonia' to describe itself, it must use the new name North Macedonia. The citizens are described as "Macedonian/Citizen of North Macedonia". The language, though, is just Macedonian. --Michail (blah) 01:38, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

• Wait and move In favour of moving but let's wait until the process has finished. --Michail (blah) 01:38, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

• Wait and then start a centralize discussion on renewing Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia). Matthew hk (talk) 02:33, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree as the Prespa Agreement also involves a few others things like identity and language etc, and those have to be sorted out as well in terms of how to express those elements in relation to Wikipedia.Resnjari (talk) 07:18, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

@Resnjari: actually, the Prespa Agreement acknowledges the right of the Macedonians to their self-determination, and does not interfere to it. The only thing which the Prespa Agreement does in relation to self-determination and language name, is to add a clarification that they belong to the Slavic groups of people/families of languages and have no whatsoever relation with the Ancient Greek Kingdom and language. Thats all. So, there is no really any need for the change of expression here in Wikipedia regarding the ethnic group and their language: they will still be Macedonians and their language Macedonian, except for these articles where there is also mention of other Macedonian groups, such as Greek Macedonians. In that case, the common practice will still be continued, which is to add a clarification (e.g. Ethnic Macedonians, Greek Macedonians) to avoid causing the readers any semiological confusions. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 12:15, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm in favour of reaffirming that for any updates of MOSMAC regarding ethnic Macedonian identity and their language in light of the Prespa agreement. Its to prevent POV pushers and denialists who argue the contrary etc from restarting edit wars on many articles (as was done in the 2000s) on 'patriotic', nationalist and racist grounds in Wikipedia.Resnjari (talk) 13:29, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I see your point. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 13:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

As a member of Football wikiproject, it really not fun if people argue it was North Macedonian footballer or Macedonian footballer in lede, it definitely need to renew the MoS. Matthew hk (talk) 15:05, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment.Resnjari (talk) 15:13, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

• Move: Wikipedia was terrible all these years and now proves it once more. FYROM was the official name and Wikipedia accepted fully FYROM thesis on name rejecting every logical Greek argument calling us nationalists. There was no way to avoid using Republic of Macedonia everywhere according to WP:ARBMAC and WP:ARBMAC2 guidlines. Now FYROM changed its name to north Macedonia and we still discussing if we move it or not. Even if Greece didn’t ratified the agreement FYROM has new constitutional name. There is no need to wait NATO, EU, Greece or any other third party to accept it. All these years the argument was that Republic of Macedonia is what they call themselves. So good job Wikipedia keep the provocative-for-Greeks-name as long as possible.Vagr7 (talk) 07:50, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

No, Wikipedia is not "terrible" because we accept the constitutional names of all countries. You will notice we also use the name Greece rather than FOVOG (Former Ottoman Vilayet of Greece)... If keeping the name provokes some racists then all the better, but that is not the motive. As has been made very clear in the discussion, the change takes place on February 8th, meaning that we of course should not move the page before per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:CRYSTAL. Jeppiz (talk) 10:02, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

@Vagr7: as a Greek myself, I disagree with your opinion that "Wikipedia is terrible" because it is not. And I don't understand why you want the country's name to change BEFORE it is actually changed. Haven't you read when the Name Change will take place officially? By 8 February 2019, when the Republic of Macedonia's authorities sent a letter to the United Nations and its 195 member states across the world, announcing that their new name will be Republic of North Macedonia from that day and on. Only then we can update the article name to reflect the new developments! Ratification by Greek Parliament did not bring the Prespa Agreement into full force. If you are Greek, please read this: "North Macedonia by 8 February: the next steps of the Prespa Agreement" --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 12:25, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with SilentResident. If anything I think Wikipedia's stance shows why this agreement is important. With the interim accord the whole world recognised it as Macedonia and this is simply reflected on Wikipedia. There is an argument to be made that Wikipedia facilitated this by de facto recognising it as Macedonia (although Wikipedia itself did not take a stance, it merely reflects the most widely used name), but there really is no need to have this discussion now. The general hysteria in Greece and North Macedonia will die out eventually and we can move on, but there is no need to rush to implement the name change before it has officially happened. I think the push is linked to what is happening in Greece right now where every 5 minutes we get a new news alert that X or Y person referred to North Macedonia simply as Macedonia, without mentioning that the name-change process has not officially been concluded yet. Good things to those who wait. --Michail (blah) 12:45, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I think the push is linked to what is happening in Greece right now where every 5 minutes we get a new news alert that X or Y person referred to North Macedonia simply as Macedonia, without mentioning that the name-change process has not officially been concluded yet. Good things to those who wait. This. Certain Greek media do this. So far, the newspapers "Kathimerini" and "Eleutheros Typos", and rightist "New Democracy" party are the ones complaining mostly about Zaev still calling his country simply "Macedonia" after Greek Parliament's ratification. These media and the party, are either populists, either ignorant, or both. And for this reason, I stopped taking them seriously. They crashed at the bottom of my esteem after the latest developments. Lately I am considering boycotting Kathimerini from being used as Reliable Source in Wikipedia's articles. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 13:34, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: I think that the 8th of February date is only a rough estimate of when the procedure is expected to finish. I heard yesterday on Greece's national TV that the procedure will finish on the 10th of February. So for the time being the exact date is not certain Weatherextremes (talk) 10:24, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

@Weatherextremes: 6, 8, or 10 February, does it really matter? It is just a rough estimate and the dates are irrelevant. That's why sources say "By 8 February" and not "On 8 February". The Article name will be updated when right time comes. No need to rush it. But in mean time we can benefit from this waiting period, and open a discussion on Wikipedia matters relating to name change. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 12:28, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

• Wait and move Let's wait until the actual name change is implemented in February 2019.Jurryaany (talk) 12:48, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose a move now or in February per actual Wikipedia policy: WP:COMMONNAMES/WP:OFFICIALNAMES and the spirit of WP:CRYSTALBALL. Wikipedia titles are supposed to reflect common usage in English-language reliable sources, something that has gone unmentioned in this discussion in the rush to turn this encyclopedia into Wikinews. Wikipedia has a number of country articles at titles that reflect their commonly used names rather than their official ones (from Taiwan to Ivory Coast to South Korea to East Timor) and even the recent move of Swaziland to eSwatini took time until actual usage changed. "North Macedonia" already redirects here so no readers are harmed by the status quo. —  AjaxSmack  14:48, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack: I am afraid there are 2 issues with what you said: first of all, Wikipedia has most of its country articles using WP:COMMONNAME instead of WP:OFFICIALNAME for these countries because their shortnames (e.g. Greece instead of Hellenic Republic, China instead of People's Republic of China, and more) are distinctive enough to avoid semiological confusion among readers. However, the Republic of Macedonia's case is an exception to this rule due to sharing the same name with other geographical/political/historical entities (e.g. Macedonia (country) and Macedonia (region) or Macedonia (kingdom)) and for this, Wikipedia chose to use the official name "Republic of Macedonia" instead of the country's WP:COMMONNAME "Macedonia". Secondly, there are ongoing developments relating to the Prespa Agreement, which will have the Republic of Macedonia's constitutional name changed into "Republic of North Macedonia". IMO, past this point, there will be no point to keep calling the country with an official name that isn't its official one anymore. If the official name of the country is changed, Wikipedia will have to be updated to reflect on these developments. However, the old official name Republic of Macedonia won't disappear; it will still be mentioned in the relevant articles, to inform the readers about the country's history and past names. But I do NOT think it is necessary for Wikipedia to keep "Republic of" in the new name for that country (Republic of North Macedonia) to distinguish it from other Macedonias, since the short term "North" is more than enough for this. It is safe to say that the "Republic of" can be dropped without causing any semiological confusion among the readers. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 15:20, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you, but that is a case for moving the article to the more common name of Macedonia (country), not the less common name of North Macedonia. —  AjaxSmack  16:19, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack: I don't understand how "Republic of Macedonia" will be WP:COMMONNAME after the implementation has finished - the agreement itself explicitely states that "Republic of Macedonia" will no longer be used to describe the state. The common name could be Macedonia (even though the deal itself forbids North Macedonia to refer to itself as simply Macedonia), but even then the process which saw the present title moved to Republic of Macedonia as opposed to just Macedonia would see the page moved to North Macedonia, even if the article begins with "Macedonia, officially the Republic of North Macedonia". --Michail (blah) 15:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't predict anything because I don't have a crystal ball. All I'm asking is to follow policy, i.e. follow what reliable sources use. I understand that my opinion is unpopular, and based on the consensus so far, I think the article can be moved summarily (i.e. without another RM request) on or around February 8. However, I did want to register my objection to ignoring policy. —  AjaxSmack  16:19, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack: I do understand your objection to moving it prematurely. I do not understand your objection to moving it to North Macedonia. Per WP:NCMAC, the page title for the country is the country's official name. Unless WP:NCMAC is revisited in its entirety, moving it to North Macedonia is the only logical thing to do. It has nothing to do with crystal balling. It's simply a case of replacing the official name in accordance with WP:NCMAC. --Michail (blah) 01:44, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack:Wikipedia country entries are vital articles of Geography. Your examples about the two Koreas and Taiwan Vs China are just wrong. Both Koreas claim the whole peninsula in their official name, but in terms of geography they occupy the north and south part respectively. Same for Taiwan that could never be classified as “China”. East Timor is in fact east Timor. We also commonly refer to the USA as America , but to avoid confusion with the continent America, we use the official name of the country. Wikipedia must provide accurate and up-to-date geographical information and not create confusions. Keeping the same entry “Macedonia” or “the Republic of Macedonia” for the soon to be Republic of North Macedonia: 1) Would not take a recent international treaty into account 2) Would provide inaccurate information regarding the official name and its accepted alternative short form (Republic of North Macedonia and North Macedonia) 3) create confusion with the wider geographical region of Macedonia and the historical region of Macedonia as well. [Shelop]

"Soon to be" is not "accurate and up-to-date"', it's crystal ball gazing and against policy. Follow the sources. —  AjaxSmack  16:23, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

"soon to be" is accurate and up-to-date because it refers to a treaty that is subject to international law! [Shelop] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shelop (talk • contribs) 18:33, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack: As a citizen of North Macedonia and ethnic Macedonian (and former nationalist) I strongly disagree with your opinion. The Prespa Agreement is here for a reason, to clarify things - not create more confusions. My country will be known as North Macedonia worldwide and Wikipedia will reflect this, 'Republic of Macedonia' as a name will exist only in historical references and our memories. Cheers to a brighter future! Macedonicus (talk) 16:57, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

"My country will be known as..." Congratulations. We can move the article then. —  AjaxSmack  00:39, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@Macedonicus: Round of applause brother. I am also all these things Macedonicus is as well! And I agree, nationalism should die already. That's the reason why I also need to disagree with you @AjaxSmack:. — Tom^(T2ME) 17:49, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I am Greek and I am proudly standing with both fellow Greek editor Michail, and fellow Macedonian editors Macedonicus and Tom. Like how Macedonicus said, I do believe the Prespa Agreement is meant to acknowledge the realities in the region - and mutual compromises had to be made to reach it and break the never-ending cycle of nationalism: both sides of the dispute acknowledge with the Prespa Agreement that no side can monopolize the name - for example, Greece and Greek Macedonians acknowledge that they cannot deny the right of the Macedonians to their self-determination, and the Republic of Macedonia acknowledges that it cannot deny that there are other Macedonias in the region such as the Greek. Wikipedia already acknowledges these realities but now the involving sides starting acknowledging it, and is why it is so good to simply ignore.

Now that the Prespa agreement is a reality, it is only natural that Wikipedia reflects upon it - All we need now is to have the readers's convenience as our priority: update Wikipedia to reflect on developments around the world, and keep things here tidy. This is better than sticking on outdated naming policies and thus, causing even more semiological confusions. I am certain that ignoring the Prespa Agreement and keeping naming policies unchanged in Wikipedia with the pretext of WP:COMMONNAME is only bound to cause more problems besides semiological confusion: 1) inconsistency about which name is really the official one, (since everyone will be seeing that there are 2 countries bearing the same name: the Republic of North Macedonia in the real life, and the Republic of Macedonia in Wikipedia), and 2) disparance among newer and older editors who are stuck with new and old POVs respectively (which may possibly lead to edit wars and page move wars). The best way to avoid all these problems altogether is to simply update Wikipedia's content to reflect on the new reality, which, from the looks of it, everyone is acknowledging already. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 18:24, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

A minor issue, which I do not know if it was discussed above, is whether the new name must be North Macedonia or Republic of North Macedonia. or example, in English the term Czech Republic is used instead of Czechia but SLovakiais used instead of Slovak Republic. In this case I suspect this is relevant to the difficult creation of a single word for the land of the Czechs. I want to point out though, that the word Macedonia means many different things and different pages exist, each devoted to a specific use of Macedonia, so using just North Macedonia will be insufficient in my opinion. This is true for Greek readers. I do not know what would be more comprehensible for other languages.--Soccererer (talk) 18:42, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Both "North Macedonia" and "Republic of North Macedonia" are perfectly fine and free of issues that may affect Czechia or Slovakia. But a name that has fewer words in it is more convenient for the editors to use, so North Macedonia which only has 2 words is much more preferable than the 4-word Republic of North Macedonia. --👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 ^{(talk ✉️ | contribs 📝)} 18:58, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

There is no need for 'Republic of North Macedonia', simply 'North Macedonia' is fine. There is no other entity going by that name except the country/republic. I don't know why we are complicating things. — Tom^(T2ME) 19:27, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

It just bad to use Czech and Slovak to compare with this RM. Why it is not Czechia , because it is not common name, why it is Slovakia, because it is common name. Just crystal ball on the common name was North Macedonia, Macedonia or else. Matthew hk (talk) 00:48, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Are you proposing that, should Macedonia be the most commonly-used name after the name change happens, that this article should be titled simply Macedonia? I understand the criticism of moving the article before the change takes effect, but moving it simply to Macedonia is a direct contradiction to WP:NCMAC. --Michail (blah) 01:36, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

It is WP:Crystal ball to guess the new common name of the country, which Macedonia or North Macedonia are possible. I already said above WP:NCMAC need to be renewed and this RM need to wait to avoid crystal ball. BTW, Republic of North Macedonia is unlikely as a common name, even it is official name. Since people and media call South Korea as Korea (which neither South and North Korea had the direction in their official name) If media still use Macedonia as the common name, then wiki user can still decide the new disambiguation affix for the country in the new WP:NCMAC, which North Macedonia or Macedonia (country) may be option. Matthew hk (talk) 14:16, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

• Move to North Macedonia I am neutral on when the move takes place, but I hope that with Prespa, we have seen the last of the naming dispute and we can improve the article without the naming dispute overwhelming us. --Marianian^(talk) 23:37, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
• Move Move, since the agreement is official and confirmed by both countries. --GT3-RSwiki^(talk) 02:15, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait with move to North Macedonia, but change intro sentence now. Yes, any move should not happen until the new name has come into effect (presumably after the NATO invitation.) But burying any mention of North Macedonia way at the bottom of the intro section (and paragraphs after detailed discussions of both Republic of Macedonia and FYROM in the meantime does not seem appropriate, either. It’s going to be North Macedonia; that’s way more important than the all-but-abolished FYROM construct. North Macedonia should be mentioned in some fashion no later than the second sentence. Otherwise, we look like we are somehow opposed to the agreed-upon name. —ThorstenNY (talk) 02:21, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
  • @ThorstenNY: I agree with this in principle, but it might be helpful to workshop some proposed language for the change. It would only be needed for the next week or so, but in the meantime, this article is getting a lot of traffic. -Kudzu1 (talk) 08:28, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
• Comment I don't have a crystal ball to predict the future but it seems like the whole name-related issue with the Prespa Agreement is just a big farce. People in 'Macedonia' continue calling their country by that name and so do even the politicians who were the main protagonists of and signed the agreement in their public speeches. The main slogan in favour of the name-change referendum was 'Yes for European Macedonia' (not 'Yes for European North Macedonia'), the common name they use after the country's parliament concluded the constitutional changes on 11 January was the same and no change can be observed even after the same was done by the other side's parliament on 25 January (on the other hand, there is no serious change in Greece either but that's not equally relevant to the point). Those (in particular Macedonicus, Tomica, Michail and SilentResident) claiming that the main purpose of the Prespa Agreement is to lessen the nationalism in a part of the world where there is no division between mine and yours but everything is only mine are right but the reality is that nothing in the world in the 21st century can change the mind of 7,7 billion people to accept, for most of them, a longer name for a country in their colloqual language. Despite the use of 'North Macedonia' in the international relations (which in most cases until now was 'FYROM'), like it or not, the country's common name will probably remain simply 'Macedonia' (no crystall ball to say it 'surely' will but 'probably' describes reality) and its citizens will be logically called 'Macedonians' (nobody would seriously use after-the-slash clarification from Article 1 Section b of the agreement). This is not because people want to deny the Prespa Agreement but because they tend to rationalize their style so that it's safe for them to use 'Macedonia' for 'North Macedonia' when there is no other country-level name containing the term 'Macedonia'. How this affects WP:COMMONNAME is pretty clear and waiting for it to apply in this case might last infinetly long and the renaming of the article should outrightly be made according to WP:OFFICIALNAME.--Mastersource (talk) 09:16, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
• Wait For now this is WP:CRYSTAL. Assuming the stipulations are realized, and it also becomes the common name (see also: "Czechia", oh wait nobody says that), the time to move will be in the future. --Calthinus (talk) 09:46, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@Calthinus: - Again, how is this WP:CRYSTAL? Per WP:NCMAC we use what the country calls itself for the name of this article. The country will no longer call itself 'Republic of Macedonia' once this is formally concluded. It will call itself 'Republic of North Macedonia', or 'North Macedonia' for short. People also colloquially call the Republic of Ireland simply Ireland, but the Republic is still on Republic of Ireland to avoid confusion. --Michail (blah) 12:25, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@Philly boy92: - It would be nice perhaps if Wikipedia's policy was to agree to current national governments' proposals but that is not what we do. And by the way on some issues that is a serious blessing -- as an editor active in the Israel/Palestine area I am especially grateful because otherwise we would have to mediate between different governments' naming policies. It would never end, let me tell you. Anyhow, that in mind, it's WP:CRYSTAL because our actual policy is to prefer what name in common use in the English language. When and if English speakers come to adopt "North Macedonia" to speak of this article's subject, then that is what Wikipedia will do. The Czech Republic has officially declared its name is "Czechia" not "the Czech Republic", but when speaking English, English speakers have not changed. Government agreements in one government versus the governments of two coming to an agreement (Greece, RoM) does not make a difference. Not even in the Czech Republic itself do English speakers call it Czechia in English [[12]]. The policy is clear.--Calthinus (talk) 13:08, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

In fact, we had to have a moratorium to stop further attempts to change the name of the Czech Republic to Czechia on Wikipedia. [[13]] --Calthinus (talk) 13:12, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@Calthinus: I understand all that. All this move to North Macedonia would do is ensure that the article complies with NCMAC. Czechia is a bit of an unfortunate example. No one is arguing that it should be moved there because there is no need for disambiguation. There isn't a wider area called Czechia, and there isn't a 30-year dispute going on. A better example would be Ireland, which is listed not on Ireland but on Republic of Ireland. We already have Naming Conventions - Macedonia and as it stands we use what the country calls itself for the name of the article. We can reopen the discussion about whether NCMAC is relevant, but this is not the place to do this. The request to move this article is solely so that it complies with the spirit of NCMAC. It's not crystal balling to expect the article to be moved once the formalities are over. Both parliaments have approved it, and the country's official name will indeed be North Macedonia. Keeping it at Republic of Macedonia would contradict NCMAC. To quote the current rules we have in place: "Republic of Macedonia" is an acceptable disambiguator because it is also the self-identifying official (constitution) name. --Michail (blah) 13:27, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@Philly boy92: The debate is between "North Macedonia" and "Republic of Macedonia". My current vote is effectively a keep "Republic of Macedonia". I am not saying adopt simple "Macedonia" -- which seems to be what you're arguing against I think?--Calthinus (talk) 14:20, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@Calthinus: No, I'm saying that since per the current NCMAC we use the official constitutional name, and since the official constitutional name has been changed, that is what this page should be called. Republic of Macedonia will be neither the official name, nor the common name. 'Macedonia' is currently the common name, not 'Republic of Macedonia'. Why would we keep 'Republic of Macedonia' as the name of the article if it is neither common nor official? I hope this clears it up. --Michail (blah) 14:48, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Okay, yeah it does, and that's fair.--Calthinus (talk) 14:58, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@Philly boy92: Calthinus has a very strong point. We don't rely on how someone dares to call itself but what's the most common practice in the English language and that's what WP:COMMONNAME is about. Ukrainians decided to use 'Kyiv' as an official English translation for their capital but that wasn't accepted here and won't be in near future as overwhelmingly the most common name in the English language is 'Kiev'. On the other hand, the use of official names such like 'Republic of Macedonia' or 'Republic of North Macedonia' is stipulated in WP:OFFICIALNAME. I really don't know how did someone come up with 'North Macedonia' when it wasn't even discussed in the negotiations (the negotiated name was 'Republic of North Macedonia') and Macedonian policiticians, including those who signed the agreement, still insist on the use of 'Macedonia' in their public speeches (see my extensive comment above). The question here is whether to rename the article to 'Republic of North Macedonia' per WP:COMMONNAME or to 'Macedonia' per WP:OFFICIALNAME. Considering that the use of the name 'Macedonia' has been previously opposed by users contending that it has multiple meaning other than the country (in the same way as Republic of Ireland), it's very logical that we'll continue using an official name for this country, that is 'Republic of North Macedonia'. The name 'North Macedonia' does not qualify for now and it's a crystal-ball reasoning if it does one day in the future.--Mastersource (talk) 14:59, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

This conversation is slowly descending into the very definition of the word 'punctilio'. I think you misunderstand the discussion if you think it's a choice between North Macedonia and Macedonia. This violates NCMAC. It's a discussion between North Macedonia and Republic of Macedonia, the current and former constitutional names. Please read my last comment above. We can argue about when the move needs to happen (for the record I voted to wait until it actually formally happens), but to accuse people of crystal balling is a bit misleading. We are not discussing whether Macedonia will agree to rename itself North Macedonia - it has already done that. And it has changed its constitutional name. The 'move' side is arguing that since NCMAC uses the constitutional name for the article on the country, this article should reflect that. Starting a discussion that the article should be moved per WP:COMMONNAME is a whole other beast and not the topic of this discussion. --Michail (blah) 15:11, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

• Move as per WP:OFFICIALNAME. The Greek and the North Macedonian parliaments voted in favour, the Greek one ratified the agreement, we are on to the NATO acceptance process. Also, the "Macedonia" should not appear as a per WP:COMMONNAME because firstly, beats the purpose and secondly since the name is similar to e.g. South Africa, none call this country just Africa. This argument is just invalid. Othon I (talk) 10:10, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

You quoted official name and common name wiki policy, but your reasoning are opposing the policy your quoted. Please see also Wikipedia:Article titles. Matthew hk (talk) 14:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying to not use a common name. All I am saying is that if we leave the common name as "Macedonia" it beats the purpose of the Prespa Agreement. The name "North Macedonia" which is the official from now on should be enough. Othon I (talk) 14:55, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

• Wait for official change name & a comprehensive RfC per ARBMAC 2 Motion of 17 June, and only then move to North Macedonia. First of all, the country's constitutional name has not yet changed. According to the recent constitutional changes in Skopje, the latter will be activated only after the ratification of the country's NATO accession protocol by the Greek parliament. Therefore, the Prespa Agreement is not yet activated, and the country's constitutional name (Republic of Macedonia) has not yet changed. This has been confirmed today by a statement of the Greek Alternate Foreign Minister, Giorgos Katrougkalos, to a Greek radio station; he stated verbatim that the provisions of the Prespa Agreement are not yet activated (answering to a journalist's question why Zaev continues to call his country "Macedonia" and not "North Macedonia"). Secondly, I am not 100% sure that the current procedure is in full accord with ARBMAC 2 Motion of 17 June. From a practical point of view, I believe that the Motion in question has a particular wisdom that should not be ignored: from my past experience (being inter allia the party who initiated ARBMAC 2), I have concluded that on this topic even the most uncontroversial issues somehow become controversial (does this RfC look, until now, consensual and uncontroversial?!). I thus believe that the RfC desicion which will be taken should be as comprehensive and as well crafted as possible. There is no reason to hurry; the new reality will be imprinted in Wikipedia, but this should be done in a way guaranteeing that there will be no fragmentary and contradicting decisions. Let's at least once, on this topic, do the things without a hurry and in a proper way.Yannismarou (talk) 13:20, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
• Comment Hi all, to those who remember me. I was also a party in the marathon discussion that lead to ARBMAC 2 current naming conventions so I guess this is our #10yearchallenge. So believe me when I say that moving any article should not be taken lightly. At least now there is discussion and not an out of the blue forced admin action. Make no mistake, the internet is not as it was 10 years ago and the world is also waiting for Wikipedia to choose for them!. Some in Greece are already preempting this move [14] Shadowmorph ^{^"^} 15:02, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Wait (not too long), then move. To the matter at hand I think common sense dictates to move, after the dust settles, to North Macedonia if there is consensus on that. North Macedonia is preferable to Republic of North Macedonia as per WP:PRECISE. Macedonia (country) is the only other alternative in my view, but I fail to see how it would gather support if it didn't the last time. I recall that it was considered bad form. My "not too long" clause pertains to the reasons found in the essay WP:NOW. Searching the policies I saw in WP:NAMECHANGES that we should look with some sensibility at reliable sources after the change and what wordings would they choose. However, browsing the news, I saw a hesitation to accept the name change as de facto and most news outlets use the term "North Macedonia" not as a current name but as a future one, while seemingly uttering: "Wait, is this for real?". TLDR, all I say is things could still go ...south! Shadowmorph ^{^"^} 15:02, 28 January 2019 (UTC) P.S. WP:MODERNPLACENAME could also aply: For an article about a place whose name has changed over time, context is important. For articles discussing the present, use the modern English name (or local name, if there is no established English name), rather than an older one. Shadowmorph ^{^"^} 15:22, 28 January 2019 (UTC)