Talk:Charlie Hebdo shooting

Hyper Cacher victims

From Le nom des victimes de l’HyperCacher dévoilé: Y. Cohen, Y. Hattab, P. Braham, F.M. Saada

• Yohan Cohen (22)
• Yoav Hattab (21) son of the rabbi of Tunis
• Philippe Braham (in his 40s)
• François-Michel Saada (in his 60s)

Names included in Porte de Vincennes hostage crisis. WWGB (talk) 01:45, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Background section to dig in

I made a first push on the background section shich is now such as :

Background
1.1 Charlie Hebdo satirical works
1.2 Demographics and sociology
1.3 Ideological conflict

It still need further digging to explain the conflict at play there, between French freedom of speech, laicity, partially failing integration system, and radical Islam which see itself as above everything. And I probably forgot some factors. Please help around, an Encyclopedia is here to EXPLAIN processes so we learn from each. Yug (talk) 11:39, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I think you have done a good job in presenting the material there , quite starkly, but avoiding pov presentation. Sayerslle (talk) 13:30, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I have removed the demographic material as WP:OR. The increase in Muslim population of France over the last 50 years is irrelevant. Now, if one wanted to talk about the increasing radicalization over the last few years, go ahead. Abductive (reasoning) 17:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Abductive, I saw load of TV materials about radicalisation, French suburbs socio-economic situation, young muslims radicalization. These subjects are clearly raising up within French medias. But I didn't found in-depth newspaper articles on these aspects in the articles I my quick review. As I'am in mid-year exams, I cannot read nor write more, but an outline is there ! Yug (talk) 11:39, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Abductive Can you prove that the increase in the Muslim population is not relevant? Your reasoning currently is unsound. An increase in population clearly allows for an increase in radicalization as well. Simple cause and effect. Zup326 (talk) 17:33, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't have to prove it; per WP:BURDEN, you have to prove it. Abductive (reasoning) 17:50, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The demographic material is well-sourced and passes WP:OR. You have no argument based on WP:BURDEN as the content is sourced and the verifiability is not in question. All of your arguments are highly flawed. Zup326 (talk) 18:04, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Read WP:SYNTHESIS. Abductive (reasoning) 20:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

There is no OR or SYNTHESIS there. If you believe otherwise, the burden is on you, Abductive, to demonstrate it. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:25, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes there is. For example, using sources that predate the the attack to draw conclusions. This is the definition of synthesis. But we may be arguing at cross-purposes: I 100% do want all kinds of information about the radicalization/Islamistization of Muslims in France in the article, if secondary sources connecting this to the attack are provided. The article should not make any connections between the increasing number of Muslims in France and the attack. After all, there were plenty of Muslims in France in the 1960s, but no such attacks. Abductive (reasoning) 21:43, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

What I gather from this statement is that you possibly believe relevance is based on what you personally want or don't want? I have no further comment. Zup326 (talk) 21:50, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• using sources that predate the the attack to draw conclusions: and what conclusions were drawn, pray?
• After all, there were plenty of Muslims in France in the 1960s, but no such attacks: and where does it imply otherwise? You're reading things into the statements that are not there.

Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:56, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The population increase is lowly relevant IMHO, but qualitative limitation (education, jobless rate, etc) is more relevant. Note: Abductive, you are removing several contents quite hastily, please help around by sourcing rather than doing not encouraged deletions. Yug (talk) 17:38, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia cannot be seen as endorsing a notion that more Muslims led to a terrorist attack. In Germany, for example, the largely Turkish Muslim population has been growing a lot since WWII. But are some Turks running around, shooting and bombing? Not really; of all the Islamist terror attacks in Germany, only one had 2007 bomb plot in Germany Turkish membership, and that one was driven by recent converts Gelowicz and Schneider. Abductive (reasoning) 17:49, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

you forget the Hamburger Morgenpost was firebombed Yesterday after it published some Charlie Hebdo cartoons. So not all Germans say Ich bin Charlie, you know? 06:23, 12 January 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by XavierItzm (talk • contribs)

But were the perpetrators of the recent attack Turkish? If not, it seems largely irrelevant to the point Abductive was making. Nil Einne (talk) 12:22, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia cannot be seen as endorsing a notion that more Muslims led to a terrorist attack.: and where, in the material you removed, can such an interpretation be drawn? The interpretation I got from it is: there has been a large population of Muslims in France for a long time, so it shouldn't be surprising that (a) the shooters were French citizens who (b) spoke perfect French. Exactly the kind of context I would expect from an article like this. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:25, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

good point - that material all comes from that same opinion piece from cbc and should be removed really (oh, and a 2004 book - so is clearly synth because it cant have been talking about Charlie hebdo attacks) - - the influence of militant Islamic ideas among disaffected elements is different. Sayerslle (talk) 18:01, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

About the book source, that's definitely not WP:SYNTHESIS. For one thing the book source was used for a single, brief sentence. It does not combine any references together to prove a false point. Secondly, it's a BACKGROUND section for goodness sakes, and hence explains things that were before the shooting. Thus the sources, if reliable, may also be before the shooting. Charlie Hebdo existed before the shooting, the cartoons existed before the shooting, tensions existed before the shooting, laïcité existed before the shooting. Presenting an argument of "it's from 2004 so it's synth" just does not come across as credible. By this logic, then the entire background section would need also need to be blanked. Mostly all of the sources in the background section predate the shooting, are they synth as well then in your opinion? If this was the attack or motive section, then you've got a valid argument that a source from 2004 has nothing to do with the attack itself. In the background section, it's not the case. Whenever policies such as WP:SYNTH are misused as false backing to present an argument then it becomes much harder to debate and take seriously whatever is brought to the table, if there is indeed any other legitimate points. Zup326 (talk) 19:02, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

oh Christ - well your argument sounds to me like a charter to drag in any old stuff you want into a 'background' section and sod whether its related to the attack on Charlie hebdo - its OR to say this 2004 book is 'background' to the attacks -who says so - turkey gobble and zup ? - the 2004 book is only brought to the sodding table by OR , nothing else. I can't stand this dumb wikilawyering - Sayerslle (talk) 19:26, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Sayerslle: I didn't add the 2004 source. I added the very in-context CBC source, to which your objective appears to be WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:16, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary. Another guy who wants it quite strongly happens to be PuffinSoc (he brought in the book source in the first place), and he's been restoring a lot of background information around once per day whenever it got nuked. I'm not the one doing reverts nor am I sitting here drooling to delete the information the next time it comes back. The first issue people had with it, was simply being the lead-off paragraph. When we moved it down, only one editor kept on blanking it. When 2 guys keep on re-adding something for days on end, and 1 guy keeps on deleting it and gets blocked for doing so, then the current consensus (albeit it a small one) is inclusion. As per your request I went ahead and added another source myself which is the only contribution I've made to the section. It's not a major disagreement and I appreciate the fact that you've accepted the source. Zup326 (talk) 20:26, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

I feel strongly that there must be decent background to this article, but it must be in context. Given the amount of news and commentary out there, I think it would be reasonable to limit the background to what has appeared in sources about the shooting (which is likely substantial). Something like a Time article, for instance. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:14, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, Sayerslle has made his opinion quite clear that he simply just doesn't want the book. As I type this, PuffinSoc has restored the information about the book yet again. Is there any reason why the book reference in itself so desperately needs to be nuked? I'm perfectly fine with it. If we can say there are 5 million Muslims in France then why not further state that 1.7 million of them are in Paris? It's an extremely brief sentence that aids the reader. It helps the context of the section regardless of the source's age. I'm not losing sleep over it either way and I merely wish to see an end to the edit wars. That being said, take a look at the other sub-sections in Background. One of the sources is from way back in 2008, some from 2012, etc. Zup326 (talk) 22:32, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

If it's really important to understanding the incident there'll be a source that gives such background. The book has nothing to do with the shooting; the CBC and Time articles are about the shooting. Try Google---I don't see anything in the first page that gives the Muslim population of Paris, but I do see an interesting tidbit in multiple sources: France has the largest Muslim population in the EU: The Economist, CBC, The Telegraph, The New York Times. If we stick to what sources about the shooting have to say about the background, then we won't have editors claiming SYNTH or OR. We'll still have Abductive removing the CBC-sourced info, though, obviously. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:24, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

'stick to what sources about the shooting have to say about the background' - yes, thats a good guide imo - the problem I have with that CBC article is that though it is about the shooting it looks like a guest columnist kind of thing , and an op-ed - but I wont edit war over itSayerslle (talk) 00:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Which perhaps applies to the "right wing" stuff (whose original removal I did not object to), but not to the rest of it, which is strictly factual and in context. Several of the sources I just linked to above mention some of the same stuff. Conrad Black just wrote in the National Post about the flood of immigrants following the war in Algeria---a million of them in the 1960s. This info is not limited to what the CBC article says---the CBC article happened to be the first source I came across that mentioned these things. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:27, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough guys. I'm always in favor of increasing the amount of reliable sources. The thing is, I've written most of what I'm going to write already for this article, mostly in the attack, siege, and demonstration sections. They're now relatively in good shape and fairly up-to-date. I would have liked to have written about the Background section a little bit as well but I felt put off from doing so due to the edit wars. I'd be willing to write a paragraph or two once it's clear that the edit wars and the blanking of entire sections is over with. Zup326 (talk) 00:42, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

oh bloody hell, Conrad black , - well now maybe I have to refine what I think is a good guide as something like - 'what sources about the shooting have to say about the background and which aforesaid sources are respected commentators, historians, and journalists on the history and politics of contemporary France and whose views appear in RS -' Sayerslle (talk) 00:44, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand: are you trashing Black's credentials as a historian? I've now quoted media from both the left and the right in Canada among the sea of other sources (American and British) I've pointed to above. How many sources do I have to provide before you'll graciously allow your minions to include background demographics? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:32, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

While sources is needed and welcome, your push for EXTERNAL source at every single corner make our editorial work impossible (is this what you want ?). I will take some example.

• I formerly wrote 2 lines about muslim population arrival into lower income jobs and not complete integration, which were well known and obvious historical summary yet removed because there were no external citation "with this exact statement".
• I currently would like to add "While most Muslims are well integrated to French society", an obvious fact of French society, to neutralize the dramatic-pessimistic and muslim-agressive tone of the background which is quite stigmatising muslim and accordingly, shocking. I will not improve the section, add this obvious common sense, but de facto leave the section tone anti-muslims, because I haven't under hand an article with this EXACT statement. This statement is so obvious to French journalists that they will not even write it, or it will insult the intelligence of French readers who see it daily.
• On the other hand you will protect "An August 2014 ICM survey found that one in six French citizens (16%) sympathises with the Islamist group ISIS - also known as Islamic state." because there is a source while the "sympathises" is so blur that it can mean anything such "do you sympathise with their fight against Assad".

Sources are needed, but when you remove every single non-controversial common sense summary on "it's not sourced directly in link with the shooting", you make our writing work impossible and you do encourage to keep the section in a poor autistic state. Yug (talk) 13:51, 13 January 2015 (UTC) See Wikipedia:What_SYNTH_is_not.

Wiki writing is a work in progress, and positive stones should not be removed from the wall on the argument "stone is not perfect", as it makes the wall-article fragile. For non-controversial points, sources must be requested, but the content should not be removed. Yug (talk) 13:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

@curlyturkey - I just have a preference for journalists and historians who are active now as observers and commentators on the contemporary French scene, or political scene in general, like Lyse Doucet say, over what amounts to a superannuated 'rentagob' like Black with a predetermined narrative to sell - would belong better in a 'reaction' section anyhow, - setting the background should be the result of collecting highly informed RS on French politics, culture and society - you seem to favour sensationalist op-ed type material for some reason. Sayerslle (talk) 14:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Sayerslle: "you seem to favour sensationalist op-ed type material": except that I do no such thing, and every time I call you and Abductive out on your bullmanure statements like this, you pretend you DIDNTHEARTHAT. You can't make accusations like that without backing them up. Instead you're more interested in defending Abductive's right to editwar. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

@yug - I agree with what you are saying here , but surely theer must be RS for the degree of integrated -ness etc - there isn't really a way to ignore RS if they are being asked for is there? Sayerslle (talk) 14:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

@Sayerslle I agree with Yug and Curley, you are causing a lot of disruption by being so fussy with the sources. If this was a biography of a single person, then yes the sources will always be in direct relation to that person. This is not. It's an event with a highly extensive background that involves Charlie Hebdo, French Muslims, and conflicting ideologies. It's reasonable to expect and allow that not all sources explaining these topics will be written about in direct response to the shooting. You are not applying WP:Reasonability in regard to the sources of background information. You may have some valid points but citing OR and WP:IDONTLIKEIT at every turn is clearly not helpful. Why not try to provide an alternative writing source instead and contribute something that you do like? Zup326 (talk) 17:53, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't want to add stuff I like - I believe the article should be led solely by what RS are saying about the background to the shooting. citing OR 'at every turn' , if, at every turn, OR is being added to that section, is ok imo Sayerslle (talk) 17:58, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The thing is, you cite OR

Please do not present WP:FRINGE and racist allegation as if they were truth. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 21:11, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, Fox News should be avoided at all costs. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:28, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

It was a good faith edit. The opinion piece that I did include was stated in the right context and was prescribed to the analyst, and even then no racist allegations were made. It certainly wasn't even close to OR, but I agree it could have come across as fringe the way it was written. Maybe we need a discussion on the relevance of radicalization? Abductive earlier stated that he wanted stuff that expanded upon the topic. At this point however, I would consider the section as hopelessly unexpandable with no consensus of what we are even trying to do. But the ZUS's, along with the isolation and poverty they entail, are an important part of Muslim radicalization in France. If anyone is interested in it, then the following sources expand upon it. Washington Times, The Economist, IJReviewZup326 (talk) 02:45, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I've no doubt that it was in good faith, but Fox News has an agenda, and what they report will be chock full of dog whistles and other less subtle bias. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:41, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Is there a clear consensus anywhere that establishes the fact that Fox News is not an acceptable source for information? The only thing I could find on the subject was an old conversation in which the consensus was that all news channels have some bias in some way at times, and thus Fox should not be treated any differently than any other news source. Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources/Archive_16#Fox_News._Reliable_Source.3F Zup326 (talk) 04:52, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not aware of an official consensus against it, but it's well knwon that Islam is one of their pet targets. If there's anything neutral and factual in a Fox News report that's worth including, it will almost certainly be found in a less overtly bisaed source as well. Or, let's put it another way---do you want to spend your time defending a Fox News source on the Talk Page? No? Then get a different source. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'm not worried about it much anyway. I'd rather get some feedback as to what we're actually trying to do with the section. Do you disagree with expansion or do you think that the radicalization of Muslims in France is relevant background information? Zup326 (talk) 05:20, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't disagree with expansion per se, but it's obviously very sensitive, and I don't think the background should be allowed to overtake the article. The background should provide sufficient context which which to make sense of the article, but no more. I don't think the background should be filled up with the merely interesting. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Right I agree. I never had any intention of writing an essay there at all. The relevance of radicalization was raised by multiple editors including Yug and Abductive, so I felt that it was alright to include some brief info about the topic as well as the ZUS. As it stands now there's not a lot else that I'm interested in adding to the article...except for maybe that Michel Houellebecq cover though. Nah just kidding. Zup326 (talk) 06:42, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

References

Trying to get away without sourcing

So there's this dirty little comment snuck into the article:

< !-- See external sources in the cited wikipedia articles. Notice that this section summarizing other wikipedia articles, external sources **while helpful are not compulsory**. -- >

No, no, no—a thousand times no—we do not include material without citations, especially material that is obviously politically heated. You don't get out of including references just because you've linked to another Wikipedia article. This is not negotiable. The balls of whoever it is trying to convince people citations are "helpful" but "not compulsory"—they are compulsory! Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:00, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Wait... this is a reponse to people removing :

On the other hand, some Muslims claim that the satire of religion, of religious representatives and - above all - of the Muslim prophet is forbidden blasphemy in Islam and can be punished by death.

There is a whole wikipedia article about that: blasphemy in Islam. Are you really asking that we copy-paste external reference from the original article we already link to ?Ok, so you are deleting the section on the basic argument "this is not EXTERNALY sourced enough", right ? Yug (talk) 23:09, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That is the minimum requirement, yes. It would also require demonstrating relation to this incident. Do sources commenting on the shooting also comment on their relation to this information you've added? Remember, no WP:OR or WP:SYNTHESIS. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:11, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

It needs to be cited in every article that makes the claim. Popcornduff (talk) 23:12, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Funny how you 2 are supporting the deletion of meaningful, verifiable contents (after 3 clicks rather than 2) based on the light "there is no external source right under hand". The WP:SYNTHESIS was also commented by Jimbo Wales by "don't be stupid either", stating that obviously true contents should not be deleted based on "there is no external reference". It was before 2010 and before that new users come along and look at wise best practices such WP:SYNTHESIS as "hard stone-writen laws". Concluding from 2 facts is acceptable when the final statement is obviously logical and true. Yug (talk) 23:50, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Example: saying that part of the issue is socio-economical, that part of the poorer areas are radicalized after individuals from poor areas lead to such even is valid. When source is always welcome, no source is not a argument for keeping stupid. Yug (talk) 23:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

You're going to make the claim that anything in a politically-charged article is "obviously true"? Get yourself a reliable, in-context source and you're fine—what issue do you have with that? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:51, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

You perfectly understood i'am talking about logical statements, not about hard to believe associations. What issue ? => 1. your removal is not helping, it is HIDING explicative elements and destroying the needed outline which is the 1st step to then receive the sources you are asking for, and that we all acknowledge are in the cited wikipedia articles and in current French debates. 2. My mid-term exams are today. Yug (talk) 23:09, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The "1st step to then receive the sources you are asking for" is to get the sources. Get them, then come back. The article's not going anywhere til you get back. Remember, the info must be in-context, and not just what you feel should be added. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 09:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

User:Curly Turkey: Wikipedia:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH_is_not_a_rigid_rule , Wikipedia:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH is not summary, Wikipedia:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH is not explanation. You are removing content which is the summary of cited wikipedia articles (point 2) and thus verifiable. Yug (talk) 19:30, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

You're spending an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out just how close of to the SYNTH line you can go, aren't you? Not a good sign. And still no attempt at providing sources, eh? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Curly Turkey, if you just want to win the argument against other people go ahead in long edit wars and WP:something naming with hard line reading. You will likely exhaust your opponents and win, good for yourself. In the current emergency of load of readers and few in depth sources, my question is "how do we take off from a superficial list of lowly connected sourced statements into a meaningful and honest encyclopedic article". Yug (talk) 14:07, 13 January 2015 (UTC) Sourcing is helping, deleting summary of meaningful content doesn't.

Yug, everybody else seems capable of adding sources when they add text. Do you see that notice at the top of this Talk Page? "This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy". The requirement for in-context sourcing is not negotiable. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Nicely worded point... if it was our point of conflict. But :

• Strict sourcing for living people is required to avoid personal attacks, to avoid controversial statements, and to avoid legally risky defamation for editors and for the WMF. We adhere to this guideline.
• As Zup326 (17:53, 13 January 2015), Sayerslle (17:58, 13 January 2015) and myself are pointing out: we are here talking about the background section, including the general background of the attackers and of French society, namely immigration and Islam in France at large, poor suburbs, laicity, right of satire and the historic of these concepts in France. None of these is a living person, as you can agree with us. Each of these have been documented for years, before the attacks. It's the context, the environment, not what these guys are or did. Yug (talk) 10:24, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

My previous statements still stand, your hard line "biographies of living persons" reading make our writing work of a meaningful, fair background section impossible by excluding summary and pre-event in depths sources. Yug (talk) 10:37, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

You will not get away with adding unsourced text, as per well-established policy. You've been warned. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 11:10, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Are your reading ? You sound like you just want to be right, accepting sensationalist when sourced, and don't give a shit about the article itself. You are pushing away pre-event sources and fair logical associations done from several sources if there is not a single word-by-word approving source. WP:REASONNABLE, we are 3 editors answering you that sourcing is needed, we agree, but you go too far and it get toxic for the article itself. Yug (talk) 13:51, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Where am I "accepting sensationalist when sourced"? I sure as fuck haven't added any!

You are pushing away pre-event sources and fair logical associations done from several sources if there is not a single word-by-word approving source.: No, I'm deleting your information that you have explicitly stated you will not provide a source for. Sourcing is not an option. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:35, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Citation Overkill

I believe some sentences have too many citation footnotes. For example:

• On 7 January 2015, at about 11:30 CET (10:30 UTC), two masked gunmen armed with AK-47 assault rifles, a shotgun, and a RPG launcher stormed Charlie Hebdo's Paris headquarters.[4][5][6][7][19][54]

• There were also large marches in many other French towns and cities — perhaps three million people throughout France — along with marches and vigils in many other cities worldwide.[28][215][216][217][218]

• Some English-language media outlets republished the controversial cartoons on their websites in the hours following the shootings. Prominent examples included Bloomberg News,[224] The Huffington Post,[225] The Daily Beast,[226] Gawker,[227] Vox[228] and The Washington Free Beacon.[229]

• Former Union Minister and Indian National Congress senior leader Mani Shankar Aiyar defended the attacks on Twitter and television[284] as a response to France banning the niqab, and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.[285][286][287][288][289][290]

I believe some of the citations should be formatted in a single footnote, as the article is currently difficult to read. Like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vaccination&oldid=511805976#cite_note-4

Gamebuster19901 (talk) 01:43, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Some of that was the result of editors deleting the material in question. For example, the first sentence and series of refs. You can see some of the history of that on the talk page (editors seemed happy deleting the sentence if there were only two or three RS refs). But yes, formatting any of those into a single fn would be fine. Also, except for possibly contentious matters, the lede does not needs refs ... to the extent that the refs appear in the body, supporting the same proposition. Epeefleche (talk) 01:59, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunetly, I have no idea how to go about making list/group references, do you know anyone that knows how? Gamebuster19901 (talk) 18:30, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

You just put one cite after the other with a <br\> in between. See WP:CITEBUNDLE Richard-of-Earth (talk) 08:24, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I will see what I can do :) Gamebuster19901 (talk) 15:17, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

----Edit to stop archiving of this section---- Gamebuster19901 (talk) 01:31, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Looks like David O. Johnson already took care of most of it. Xharm (talk) 01:36, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

The article is also bloated by an excessive number of references that largely make the same point. Cite bundles just shift the bloating from the article to the ref section. What is really needed is a firm and judicious pruning of the multiple references. There would be hundreds of sources around the world making the same point, but only one or two are needed to satisfy WP:VERIFIABILITY. Many multiple sources are added by editors keen to make a point that the content is "important". WWGB (talk) 01:35, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree, However editors need to make sure they are keeping at least one reliable source for the statement, and not leaving only yahoo in it's place, as yahoo is very rarely a reliable source. Gamebuster19901 (talk) 01:53, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

In that instance that you mention, AFP was the original source; Yahoo just carries the story.David O. Johnson (talk) 02:06, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Numerals vs spelt-out numbers

The second sentence goes as follows (minus the links).

"They killed 12 people, including the editor Stéphane "Charb" Charbonnier, 7 other Charlie Hebdo employees, and 2 National Police officers, and wounded 11 others."

The use of numerals is justified by a hidden comment which reads "per [[WP:NUMNOTE]], numerals are fine here, as the series includes both small and larger numbers".

Actually, per WP:NUMNOTES, spelt-out numbers (as follows) would also be fine for the same reason.

"They killed twelve people, including the editor Stéphane "Charb" Charbonnier, seven other Charlie Hebdo employees, and two National Police officers, and wounded eleven others."

WP:NUMNOTES is a double-edged sword here as it allows either. It's actual purpose is to discourage a mixture like the following.

"They killed 12 people, including the editor Stéphane "Charb" Charbonnier, seven other Charlie Hebdo employees, and two National Police officers, and wounded 11 others."

So, it's a question as to which is better the style (all words or all numerals). I'd say "They killed twelve people ..." is the better style and I believe MOSNUM agrees.

Immediately above WP:NUMNOTES we have the following.

Generally, in article text:

• Integers from zero to nine are spelled out in words
• Integers greater than nine expressible in one or two words may be expressed either in numerals or in words ...

This would seem to imply that if you have a set of comparable quantities including at least one integer from zero to nine all of which can be spelt out in fewer than three words, they should all be spelt out.

The following examples from WP:NUMNOTES appear to conform to this interpretation.

  •  five cats and thirty-two dogs, not five cats and 32 dogs.

  •  86 men and 103 women, not eighty-six men and 103 women

So, let's spell them all out. Jimp 05:43, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The existing format is perfectly fine. This is clear from the link to the MOS that you supply, but the language of which you failed to quote. Which states the exception to the general rule. Namely that: "Comparable quantities should be all spelled out or all in figures". The current format is "all in figures", and therefore perfectly in compliance with our MOS. No reason to change it. We are applying the exception here, not the general rule, so your back-tracking to the general rule, and importing it into the exception (which the exception does not do ... it says nothing about "well, if the number is x use this format, and if y use that format") ... is to mis-read the MOS.

At the Project, we do at times have formats in place that are fine to use, and someone comes along and says "here is another one that I personally like better that is also fine to use." We don't, in those circumstances, edit war back in forth - we stick with the one in place. An example is dates ... when we have 7 July 2010 in place, and someone wants to change it to 7-7-10. Or vice versa. We stick with the existing format. And we certainly don't edit war back and forth to try to impose a second format that is no more approved than the first format. Gives editors time to attend to other matters. Epeefleche (talk) 06:54, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

• This is a level of hairsplitting that should be left until the flurry of edits has died down. There are enough edit conflicts as it is, and this issue is purely cosmetic. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 07:04, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, no, I agree that it is cosmetic and I agree that MOSNUM allows either (I believe I acknowledged this). I'm not interested is starting an edit war (especially over such a small thing), that's why I brought it here for further consideration. I will admit that NUMNOTES does overrule the advice in WP:NUMERAL (to an extent at least). However, I don't agree that there is no reason to change it ... well, maybe not at present. Stylistically the spelt-out version seems better to me, sure, that's an appeal to I LIKE IT, but if consensus is to agree, so be it. No, I didn't quote (be it a kind of failure or not) the exception but I think I acknowledged it and did link to it. No, I also agree that it would be totally unproductive to be toing and froing over two equally acceptable styles. I only question whether these are really equally acceptable. Am I misreading MOSNUM or just interpreting it? Am I importing the general rule into the exception unjustly? Whatever. You know, though, if you follow the general rule (as specified by WP:NUMERAL), you don't need the exception (in this case), so, I might be forgiven for reading the MOSNUM the way I did. Anyhow, what I'm suggesting isn't what is said but I still reckon it's what is meant. Ultimately this could be a question to be dealt with at WT:MOSNUM so that we can have more definite rules (not too definite though). Jimp 13:25, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The other two

• Comment - I'm not going to start a new section about this, but who are the other two people that were killed. According to this passage, it's only ten: They killed 12 people, including the editor Stéphane "Charb" Charbonnier, 7 other Charlie Hebdo employees, and 2 National Police officers. Charb is 1, then + 7 employees = 8, then + 2 police = 10. So who are the other two people excluded? List of 12 at NYT. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:37, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Maintenance worker Frédéric Boisseau who worked for Sodexo and happened to be sitting in the lobby by terrible misfortune, and Michel Renaud who was an invited guest at the meeting but was not a Charlie Hebdo employee. Zup326 (talk) 19:59, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. However the sentence is still misleading as it says 12 people were killed, but the data listed there to support that statement doesn't back that number (12) up. I guess the question I should have asked is why these two people are excluded. Isaidnoway (talk) 13:28, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Next edition

The next edition of Charlie Hebdo will be full length (16 pages), and not 8 as previously planned. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.251.154.154 (talk) 09:43, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Muslim reactions

The section on Muslim reactions is divided into two, with some condemning and other supporting. The condemnations are coming from mainstream Muslims, where as the support are coming from lone individuals, often with no association to a major Muslim organization. Therefore, the section on support should not be given undue weight. Because it is certainly possibly to flood the article with Muslim condemnations of the attack, all sourced to reliable and notable sources.

Instead, I suggest we give broad summaries of the condemnations and support.VR _talk 06:29, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Where comments are made (on either side) by notable persons or organizations (e.g., those with wikipedia articles), I see no reason to hide the reactions from wikipedia's readers. Epeefleche (talk) 06:48, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Are you saying comments should be quoted in full? Wouldn't it suffice to say simply say "ISIS praised the attack", as opposed to quoting ISIS' exact words?

And if we started doing that, pretty soon we'd need to fork off an article like "Muslim reactions condemning Charlie Hebdo shooting", since there are literally, at least, 50 different notable Muslim individuals and organizations that have condemned the attack in lengthy statements.VR _talk 06:50, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Summarizing or shortening what they say, or lumping it together, would be fine with me -- editorial discretion (where the extra words add nothing, certainly it would be better). If it is Churchillian, then I would quote more. I'm focused on deleted that x took position y, if x has a wikipedia article, and RSs have reported it. I would be open to deleting views of people or organizations that don't have wp articles. Epeefleche (talk) 07:01, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Muslim official condemnations are many, almost unanimous. V has a good point, policy-wise. Some sense of proportionality per WP:Undue is needed. The article is already suffering from bloat, and one can barrel-scrap to get fringe support evidence, but is it important?.Nishidani (talk) 21:27, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I'm deleting this reaction: "Shots of joy in the Palestinian camp of Ain al-Hilweh, in southern Lebanon, were heard Wednesday..." This is a simply anonymous reaction from non-notable individuals. While the camp of Ain al-Hilweh itself is notable, its hard to believe that the "shots of joy" are representative of the camp. Let me know if anyone disagrees.VR _talk 02:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

wait, are you saying you are in a Better position to assess what the major Lebanse newspaper publishes (and cites a major TV Network as corroboration, to boot) than the local reporter who wrote the report? Are RS to be considered Less Reliable than Wikipedia editors from this point forward? Please advise, XavierItzm (talk) 08:38, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

ABC News reports that "Somayeh Nikooei", a random American Muslim, wants to express solidarity with Charlie Hebdo and the victims. Should we report that too? Per Epeefleche's comment, I think we should only report on reactions by notable individuals and organizations.VR _talk 14:55, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree with VR as to Somayeh Nikooei. Epeefleche (talk) 19:25, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

• isn't it ridiculous that the boring and repetitive condemnations of the terrorist attack by heads of state got spun aside into their own little article, and now we are looking at that list being repeated under this section, only for Islam countries only? XavierItzm (talk) 23:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
  • That's an interesting point. How do you propose this be handled? Please note that the majority of the world's Muslims live in Muslim-majority countries, so the official reaction of those countries is actually indicative of a lot of Muslims.VR _talk 02:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
    • since by far the majority of countries you allude to are not free and open democracies as we know it in the West, the assertion that anything those governments say is indicative of the population is open to challenge, don't you think? My humble suggestion is that government statements stay on the government subpage that has been created for that purpose and we keep this page clean of government tropes, propaganda, deflection, or positioning tactics. Cheers, XavierItzm (talk) 05:30, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• This was reverted. Why?VR _talk 03:02, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

because he did not condemn the attacks straightforwardly - he used sectarian language - takfiris etc - he is happy with shia terror - and assad regime terror , he is part of it - and he simultaneously continued to attack Charlie hebdo by saying the takfiris are worse than even the leftist cartoonists - so to just leave up 'he condemned the atatcks' - is too Hezbollah friendly imo and misrepresents the speech- which was sectarian and religious fascist imo - against sunnis and against the leftists of Charlie hebdo. - the extended quote, which is still not much, is necessary imo. Sayerslle (talk) 03:08, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

disagree. Who is Wikipedia to judge "the language" of Hezbollah and adjudicate the sectarian disputes of the followers of Allah? If the RS provides a quote from Hizbollah, then it should be included verbatim, and to do otherwise reflects bias (note Hizbollah is not a government so it is OK to include in this section). XavierItzm (talk) 06:32, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

i'm not arguing to judge the bloody language i'm saying report the choice of words used by this man in his condemnation of terror scrupulously. ffs. a few extra words to represent what was said accurately, the exact words, and i'm accused of seeking to adjudicate sectarian disputes. load of bloody rubbish. include verbatim - yes, that is what I want - what was wanted was obliteration of the exact words precisely with the effect of making it biased. 'Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said what he called "takfiri terrorist groups" had insulted Islam more than "even those who have attacked the messenger of God through books depicting the Prophet or making films depicting the Prophet or drawing cartoons of the Prophet." reuters - reuters highlights the language used - if you say 'oh its not for wp to reflect sectarian language, thats not our business' , i'd say - stick to RS - don't seek to erase exact language in RS for any 'PC' concerns - 'ooh its not for the likes of us to get involved ...' Sayerslle (talk) 13:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you.  ;-) XavierItzm (talk) 17:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Notability

• For fear that my point may get lost above, I want to start a new bullet. For reactions, I propose that we only include reactions of those people or organizations that are notable (which would probably mean that they have a wikipedia article). We should not include the reactions of non-notable individuals, even if they are reported in reliable sources, because that will really bloat the article and violate WP:UNDUE. There are likely hundreds, if not thousands of articles, where the journalist interviews John Smith on the street and asks him his opinion on the matter. We can't simply include all of those reactions.VR _talk 15:10, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
  • For example, professor Aurangzeb Alhafi doesn't seem notable at all, so I'm removing his reaction.VR _talk 13:37, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Condemnation higher than support

The vast majority of Muslims, both in France and worldwide, have condemned the Charlie Hebdo attacks. But, Andiar.rohnds insists on putting the reactions supporting the attacks before those condemning them. Why?VR _talk 15:35, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Since I've gotten no response in the last 10 hours, I'm moving the condemnations back higher than the support.VR _talk 01:17, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh hello there! Wikipedia is not your personal agenda device! The reason why I keep placing "support" above "condemnation" is because the "support" is directly tied to the event, as these types of views reflect the methodology which have reportedly led to the event, which therefor is more relevant! Also, no logical reasoning was provided against this action in the second, archived "Muslim response" topic in talk. There is an entire separate article dedicated to responses now, it may be more appropriate if you made your edits there, thanks. --Andiar.rohnds (talk) 02:29, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Here's a little bit of history behind the evolution of "muslim response". Originally, only the condemnation was listed directly under the topic of "Muslim response" with no other information provided, realistically this doesn't look right, nor it is non-biased. Then someone took the liberty of adding those who supported the murder of french cartoonists, and now that information is correctly listed at the top where it belongs. Thanks. --Andiar.rohnds (talk) 02:43, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

The "support" is not at all directly tied to the event. There's no evidence that the supporters, like Anjem Choudary, were linked to the killers. And I have provided logical reasoning. The condemnation in the Muslim community is far stronger than the support. Most Muslim organizations and countries have condemned the attacks, not supported them. Also note that the family of one of the victims, a Muslim, has condemned the attack. Therefore the condemnation belongs higher.VR _talk 03:19, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

More important: sources give more weight to the condemnation than to the support. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 03:30, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Once again, you are merely reiterating a defeated logic. The type of people who support the attacks are indeed much more relevant in this case, because they often share the same methodology which is directly tied to the actual cause of this event. Those listed condemning the attack are far less related. Realistically the entire "reactions" section of this article is grossly redundant and should have never gone this far, so don't expect something that shouldn't even be here, to be perfect the way you wish it to be. Also, the editing tactics of you and perhaps some like minded individuals are really coming out of the woodwork here. Please know that many are aware of what you are doing, there are no secrets here. The message you sent me regarding the 3RR rule seems desperate. I suggest you read Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines and Wikipedia:Policy shopping. This article has seen more than it's fair share of bias, please regard my edits as a consequence to this. Wikipedia is not a mainstream, often biased media source, as you and other like minded individuals treat it as such. You seem to be working within a popular, accustomed framework which you are confusing to be acceptable here. You, or some other individual also claims "The condemnation in the Muslim community is far stronger than the support." Instead of asking you to prove this, I'm just going to be realistic with you. First of all, you don't know the exact numbers, nor are you considering that many muslims who would support this act of cowardice are often traditional and don't use or have access to technology/methods of voicing their opinion, but realistically down in the streets of these actual communities, many more seem to be in support of the killings. Again, this is not a secret, but this is my personal observation and nothing I'm trying to present as fact, such as you are. Please stop reverting my edits, thanks. --Andiar.rohnds (talk) 04:58, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

The type of people who support the attacks are indeed much more relevant in this case, because they often share the same methodology which is directly tied to the actual cause of this event: Non sequitur. Sources give by far the greatest weight to the condemnations, and we are required to follow that. Find a blog or other venue for your soapboxing. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Your assumption that sources cannot be biased, nor cherrypicked, are indeed quite humorous to me. Please continue treating Wikipedia as a CNN affiliate. I'm sorry but your argument has no weight in logic, and is simply unrealistic. Please stop undoing my edits, thanks. --Andiar.rohnds (talk) 14:58, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Andiar.rohnds, Wikipedia relies on reliable sources to provide content. If the reliable sources say something, we have to follow it.VR _talk 17:31, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia also relies on common sense, and you're failing to comprehend what's written. What is cherrypicking? --Andiar.rohnds (talk) 02:35, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• This honestly getting ridiculous. Not only is Andiar.rohnds continuing to revert, despite opposition from multiple users. But Andiar.rohnds reverts are actually reckless. Consider this revert. Andiar.rohnds only partially moves the "Supporting the attack" subsection above, resulting in some reactions that supported the attacks actually being categorized under "Condemning the attack". For example, in the revert it can be seen that the sentence "Yahoo Canada reported a rally in support of the shootings in southern Afghanistan," appears under "Condemning the attack". That's plain absurd. If you are going to revert other users, could you at least double check what you are reverting?VR _talk 05:01, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

While one may not agree with Andiar.rohnds|talk entirely, the criteria of "Sources give by far the greatest weight to the condemnations" advocated by his challengers will simply result in the Wikipedia crystallizing the conventional, possibly propagandised, narrative of the time of the events. Sorry to make an 'ad Hitlerium' argument, but Winston Churchill was writing in the 20s and 30 against the rise of National Socialism and was largely ostracised and ignored by the mainstream, while the media, the "correct-thinking people", and the political class, epitomized by Chamberlain, were apologizing for, and appeassing, the National Socialists.
"Sources give by far the greatest weight to the condemnations" would have resulted in a 1938 Wiki where Kristallnacht would have been "an isolated event by a small minority of radicals in what is all, after all, a very large country with tens of millions of people, the vast, vast, majority of whom did not even participate". XavierItzm (talk) 13:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• So you support the idea of Wikipedia taking a POV counter to that of the sources? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 13:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

XavierItzm, you're right that there have been periods in history where the mainstream have been wrong. Also, unfortunately, Wikipedia is not a hero nor a Winston Churchill, especially since original research is forbidden. We are here to parrot what other reliable sources have published even if you disagree with those sources.VR _talk 14:56, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

VR, you imply many things. Sources are not always correct, even in abundance, especially when their source (source of the source) is known and proven to be biased at times. If sources are the blood of Wikipedia, realistic common sense would be the heart. Please read and understand the policy. Thanks --Andiar.rohnds (talk) 15:04, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you're in a position to accuse anyone of having an agenda. Saying that "the type of people who support the attacks are indeed much more relevant" displays a strong bias on your part. Stop vandalizing this page. You are doing nothing constructive at this point. Shabeki (talk) 06:30, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

" Sources are not always correct". That's simply against wikipedia policy WP:NOR. Your assertion "many more [Muslims] seem to be in support of the killings [than against the killings]" is not "realistic common sense", it is your own original research. Wikipedia is not the place for that.VR _talk 07:47, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Sourced content removed

Condemnations by the Palestinian authority and others were removed here. Why?VR _talk 03:32, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Another very detailed description of the shooting by Sigolène Vinson

« C’est Charlie, venez vite, ils sont tous morts » It appears that Saïd Kouachi did not want to kill women but that Cherif Kouachi killed Elsa Cayat before he got this specific instruction from his brother. There was a dog too which survived 195.169.141.54 (talk) 15:58, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Shooting leads to more internet censorship

"EU response to free speech killings? More internet censorship" (source) "After Charlie: more internet censorship?" (source) Why the article doesn't mention anything about this? 85.241.122.28 (talk) 16:08, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia response to free speech? Quickly deleting comments on US policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.15.142 (talk) 19:08, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Muslim demographics

Why are Muslim demographics relevant to this article? If not, why do we have this section: Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Muslims_in_France. It's not as if all Muslims were involved in the attacks.VR _talk 18:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Some are very eager to make it look that way. // Liftarn (talk) 21:36, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Liftarn: Nice smear. "Some are very eager" to make it clear why it should not be surprising that a Muslim in France should speak perfect French. Others are very eager to paint those they disagree with as racists in lieu of discussing things. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:19, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Liftarn seems to disagree with putting in the demographics. What is your opinion Curly Turkey?VR _talk 01:30, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Vice regent: As I've stated quite a few times on this talk page already, I cannot see how this article can get away without include some basic demographics on the subject (especially since reliable sources are talking about them). I'm the guy who added the first bit of background demographics. I'm also the guy who deleted paragraph after paragraph of uncited, out-of-context verbal diarrhea from the same section. Both sides of the argument have attacked me for it. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:39, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, but what is the subject here? Is it three terrorists attacking a magazine and then later a supermarket? Or is it France's Muslim population rebelling against the country? What does the number of Muslims in France have to do with the terrorist attacks? I can see how demographics were justified in 2005 French riots. But why here?VR _talk 01:50, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

How on earth can you read those details as "France's Muslim population rebelling against the country"? Talk about a non sequitur. "What does the number of Muslims in France have to do with the terrorist attacks": I've answered this already, but YOUDIDNTHEARTHAT.

Without those details, it is impossible for a layreader (Wikipedia's target audience) to make sense of many of the most important details in the article. Explain why you want to distort the interpretation of this aricle by leaving out these essential details. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

"Explain why you want to distort the interpretation of this aricle (sic)" Why would I want to distort the article? Why are you asking me a Loaded question? We certainly won't get to an agreement here if you accuse me of wanting to "distort" things. We can disagree with each other without attacking the other's intentions, no?VR _talk 02:03, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

You can disagree, but you also have to back up your disagreement. Drop the accusations that the demographics are a racist attempt to make it look like all Muslims are terrorists. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Yet another false accusation you have made against me. When on earth did I ever accuse anyone of "a racist attempt"??VR _talk 02:17, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

If accusing someone of adding the information to make it look like all Muslims are terrorists is not an accusation of racism, then that's a finer hair than I'm capable of splitting. Meanwhile, you ignore my every other point. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:47, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I certainly don't understand why. Let's see what others think. MoorNextDoor (talk) 01:40, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

MoorNextDoor: Don't understand what? Who are you responding to? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:44, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Curly Turkey: I don't understand why Muslim demographics should be relevant to the article. I was responding to VR. _____ MoorNextDoor (talk) 02:01, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

So I have to explain again? The demographics are important so that it is not surprising that a Muslim might speak perfect French. Nobody wants to address this no matter how many times I bring it up. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree that's relevant. See my comment below. Zup326 (talk) 02:21, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

You're confusing me even more. What does religion have to do with language skills ? Who's going to be surprised by the fact that s French born citizen (regardless of his religion) speaks fluent French ? MoorNextDoor (talk) 02:29, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

"The demographics are important so that it is not surprising that a Muslim might speak perfect French." Seriously, Curly Turkey? Why would a lay person be surprised that a Muslim can speak perfect French?VR _talk 02:30, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Seriously, you don't know? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:49, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Don't know what ? MoorNextDoor (talk) 02:54, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Are you trolling? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:28, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

• Time has taken the time to write a couple of articles that deal with the background demographics: 5 Facts That Explain the Charlie Hebdo Attack, Why There’s Tension Between France and Its Muslim Population. Why is Time wasting its time on "irrelevant" information? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:50, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Media of all sorts are now writing articles on all sorts of topics. Bloomberg wrote stuff saying these attacks will "fuel" anti-Muslim sentiment. So did Foreign Policy and New York Times. Should we also have a background section on Europe's anti-Muslim sentiment? My point is that what the world's media can and will publish is far beyond the scope of this article. Wikipedia should certainly talk about Muslim demographics in France, at Islam in France. This article can link to Islam in France.VR _talk 01:59, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
    • It's a matter of how it's written---it should be brief, to the point, and readable. Many of the additions have gone into far too much detail. There originally was no more than a paragraph on demographics in the "Background" section, and no separate subsection. Removing all of the demographics, however, is entirely unacceptable, and only distorts lay interpretation of the article. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
  • The Time magazine article you cite also says "The massacre occurred on the publication day of a new novel by controversial writer Michel Houellebecq." Should we mention that in the background too?VR _talk 02:06, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
    • That's been discussed elsewhere. Perhaps it should, perhaps it shouldn't. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
      • I added the bit on Europe along with my previous edit. Is the consensus then that the section does not need expanding? I agree to keep it but what should be further done with it? Zup326 (talk) 02:19, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Some newspapers are talking about French prisons and French Ghettos, should we create sections for those too ? MoorNextDoor (talk) 02:36, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
    • Some editors believe so, yes. They are separate issues and need to be weighed on a case-by-case basis. It begins by discussing---not by saying "I don't get it" and removing it. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:54, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
      • The way I see it, they are the same issue (relevance of certain topics to this article). Unless we set some standards, anybody can create a section that is reliably sourced, yet completely irrelevant, and asks for it to be discussed for days on end. MoorNextDoor (talk) 03:05, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
        • What are your opinions on radicalization within the background section as well? Do you believe every subsection is irrelevant or just the demographics? Zup326 (talk) 03:32, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
          • I'm questioning the relevance of the section "Muslims in France" (including the title), the content is another issue. MoorNextDoor (talk) 15:40, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
        • (edit conflict) In other words, you are intent on eliminating all demographic information, so it's very important to assert that all demographic information is inseparable so you can eliminate it in one swoop. You've failed. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 03:37, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
          • I'm giving you a chance to explain why you think it's relevant, and in this instance, why is it more relevant than the ghettos and the prisons in France ? MoorNextDoor (talk) 15:40, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
            • Giving me the chance to do what? I've never opposed the inclusion of information on ghettoes and prisons. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:30, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Muslim section pruning and neutralization

@Curly, the muslim section is becoming a mess with easy sensationalist opinions polls making a good part of it. It's becoming a trial of immigration in France.

I don't know why you're addressing that to me. I didn't add any of that, and I've never supported having a separate section for this stuff. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:25, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

@Zup, while I agree this section is now taking far too much importance, we cannot delete it all. Pruning is required. Demographic can be reduced sharply by integrating it's scale order within the section "sociology". Opinions polls seems hightly irrelevant to me as we can make opinions polls to says everything. It will be sourced, but it stays highly irrelevant opinions corrupted by the tone of the questions and the poll's customers (right wing papers will turn the wording to push up anti-muslim answers, etc.).

Gentle pruning and neutralization is needed. Yug (talk) 14:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Since you think we should keep it, can you at least tell us why you think that the "Muslim in France" section is relevant to this article. MoorNextDoor (talk) 15:18, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

MoorNextDoor: It mainly expose the socio-economic background of the attackers and rejection of French values. I'am myself not in love with the "Muslims in France" tag, as it unfairly stigmatize all the muslims for the actions of few. The socio-economic context of the attackers, and Islam should be cited as the attackers claimed to fight for Islam, but I don't really see to point to name the "muslim in France". Yug (talk) 16:07, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I created the background section to enlighten a bit this article but it quite got out of control. Annoyingly, I've been dragged by Curly who remove general summary and sources, pushing for a non-reachable perfect word-by-word sources quest, and was unable to work on a balanced coverage of the #background section. NOW, as the section "#Laicity and blasphemy" take care about the ideological background and conflict. I think we should take out the muslim-blaming tone and have a short "#Immigration and poor suburbs in France" section handling the socio-economic issues. I urgently renamed the section as "Immigration in France" for now. Sources are available. Yug (talk) 16:22, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Please Curly: let us some time to work on this. It's an incremental work, we cannot work with hard liner constantly unbuilding our work. Yug (talk) 16:23, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest to take the content of this, put it here, work on it and improve both the wording and sourcing which are both not properly done. Yug (talk) 16:52, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I'am leaving this article, writing is nor possible / productive. Wrote 8 good lines in ~15h full-time work over 4 days. Yug (talk) 17:12, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Yug, why not give the socio-economic background of the attackers instead of all the Muslims in France? What do Muslims in France have to do with these killings?VR _talk 17:33, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Seems a pretty good idea. Yug (talk) 18:23, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

That is a fine compromise. Only talk about the attackers. Abductive (reasoning) 18:25, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree This seems like a good compromise. Gamebuster19901 (talk) 17:54, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, why don't we do that instead? The Muslim community are not all terrorists, and people shouldn't read this article and assume that Epicgenius (talk) 19:44, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

The population and population growth of Muslims in France is part of the socioeconomic background of the attackers. The only issue is when such information gets too long. I propose doing what I had in the first place: a single concise paragraph in the overall "Background" section with no subsection header to draw undue attention to itself. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) When I say "what I had in the first place", I don't mean literally what I had written, but the spirit of how I included it—all relevant information should be concise and to the point, and not exceed (say) two paragraphs (one would be better)—just enough information to give readers the context they need to interpret the events without jumping to conclusions (like the idea that suddenly Muslims are invading Europe). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:20, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I propose doing what I had in the first place: a single concise paragraph in the overall "Background" section with no subsection header to draw undue attention to itself. That's what I'm saying. A shortened, non-headered paragraph will not put undue weight on that section. Epicgenius (talk) 23:19, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Epicgenius: Unless the disruptive editing is properly dealt with, I honestly don't see the point of doing anything since it will probably be reverted within an hour. Yug understood and I'm beginning to feel that way too. MoorNextDoor (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I've noticed that it was an IP that removed these tags, disruptively edited, etc. I am starting to think that maybe we need semiprotection again. Epicgenius (talk) 00:30, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid semi protection will not help since it's a user doing it, not an IP. The tag you added was removed within 20 minutes. MoorNextDoor (talk) 00:42, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

So name the disruptive editor already. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it was removed by 2 users. Here by PuffinSoc and here (twice) by 186.14.226.61. Epicgenius (talk) 02:42, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

If we are to mention Muslim demographics in the background, we also need to add things like discrimination against Muslims (and immigrants) in France, which is a significant issue. From what I see, sources that talk about Muslim demographics also discuss issues of unemployment, integration and discrimination.VR _talk 01:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

So add it—with in-context citations. There are plenty. I've linked to some on this very talk page.

I'm gonna go into broken-record mode here—I removed Yug's additions not only because they were uncited, but because Yug openly stated he would not cite them. I've never made any attempt otherwise to keep this kind of information out of the article. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:01, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• The Guardian (01/13), Charlie Hebdo attackers: born, raised and radicalised in Paris, Guardian.uk {{citation}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help)

• Here's an idea: instead of giving background on all Muslims in France, why not give background on Al-Qaeda?VR _talk 02:03, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

 Disagree I don't believe we need a section about demographics, this article is about the Charlie hebdo shooting, not about France. However I believe that the above compromise and the one where I put the {{agree}} might satisfy both sides.Gamebuster19901 (talk) 18:03, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Curly Turkey's argument

Curly Turkey: if I understand correctly the main reason you want Muslim demographics in the article is because of this reason: "The demographics are important so that it is not surprising that a Muslim might speak perfect French." Is that it?

If so, I have a few arguments against that. Firstly, presumably, you're referring to the Muslim French terrorists who did this. Why is them speaking French such an important issue? Readers would likely be more interested in other things like: how did they learn how to use guns? How were they radicalized? In fact, if there's anything the terrorists said that the readers would be interested in knowing, it's the "Allahu Akbar".

Secondly, how does knowing that there are 5 million Muslim in France lead a reader to believe that the French Muslim terrorists spoke perfect French? Someone can speak perfect a language perfectly without 5 million of his coreligionists being present in that country. On the other hand, having 5 million of your coreligionists doesn't guarantee that you'll speak the language of the country perfectly.

Thirdly, we mention the fact that the terrorists were from Gennevilliers, France. Isn't the fact that these guys were born in France a far stronger indicator that they spoke perfect French than the fact that there are 5 million Muslims in France?

I have written the above arguments in an attempt to have a polite dialogue with you. I'm sorry if anything above comes across as offensive.VR _talk 01:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• Why is them speaking French such an important issue?: because virtually every newspaper reported the fact that they spoke perfect French. Why would they do this? Why would a couple of Frenchmen speaking perfect French be newsworthy? You know the answer. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:58, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I find that surprising. Give me references from major sources like CNN, BBC, France24, please.

BBC, CNN, and over 2000 hits on Google News Search alone. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, if my first argument doesn't hold, what about the 2nd and 3rd? I made 3 arguments.VR _talk 02:04, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I see at least one source does it. You're right. It is important. However, I think it can be dealt with differently, please see arguments 2 and 3.VR _talk 02:07, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

As for point 2: You've misread. When our article states She reported that the two armed and hooded men spoke perfect French threatened her if she did not type in the code to open the door to the building., it should not come across as a surprise that Muslims would speak perfect French. Knowing there's a large Muslim population there eliminates the surprise.

As for point 3: no, I can't see why, especially as that comes after it's noted they speak perfect French. It also gives us no clue that Muslims coming from Gennevilliers should not be unusual. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

That paper is from the date of the incident (before they were identified). The fact that they spoke perfect French was mentioned because it meant that there was a big chance of them being French born nationals (which was confirmed later). MoorNextDoor (talk) 02:30, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

"That paper"? I just point you to over 2000 news sources! Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:50, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

2000 or 2 billion sources, the argument will be the same since they all relate to eyewitness accounts. Besides, all of this is WP:OR. If the fact that they spoke perfect French is so important, mention it, but don't create a whole section that is completely irrelevant to it just because you think that's how it should be explained. MoorNextDoor (talk) 02:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me, but are you paying even passive attention? I'm the guy who removed the fucking section! Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 03:15, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Point 2: a surprise to whom? The woman who said the quote, or the reader? Also, can we please agree that this is not about Muslims speaking perfect French, but rather the 3 perpetrators of the shootings speaking perfect French? I don't see any sources that record the fact that French Muslims in general can speak perfect French. The sources talk about the attackers speaking perfect French.

Point 3: wait, you can't see how someone born and/or raised in France might speak perfect French? Ask yourself the question, what is a greater indicator of speaking perfect French? The fact that you are born and/or raised in France. Or the fact that there are 5 million of your coreligionists in France. It's obviously the former. Because plenty of newly immigrated Muslims to France do not speak perfect French. Speaking French is an individual thing. Belonging to a religion doesn't teach you a language.

Also, we can always move the fact that the attackers were born in Paris earlier up.VR _talk 08:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Point 2: a surprise to a very great many readers, including myself and every person I've spoken to in real life about the incident. The large (2000+) news sources that reported this fact seem to agree.

Point 3: the assumption is that if they are French-born perfect speakers of French, they will be assimilated; a further assumption is that such terrorists would not be assimilated. The fact that they are perfect French speakers, yet appear not assimilated requires background information to give the reader the context with which to grapple with those seemingly contradictory facts. The large number of mainstream news sources (Time, The New York Times, the CBC, plus the very large number of sources not used in the article) bending over backward to provide this context supports the idea that this context needs to be provided. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:34, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

You're reading way too much into this to the point where it's clouding your better judgement. To equate speaking perfect French after being born in France with being fully assimilated into France is cognitive dissonance. This is like saying Anders Behring Breivik had assimilated well into Norway because he was born there and speaks perfect Norwegian. To continually belabor this displays an agenda on your part. Shabeki (talk) 20:13, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

You just spewed a whole mouthful of gibberish there, didn't you? For one, I never did "equate speaking perfect French after being born in France with being fully assimilated into France". So, what's your agenda? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:01, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Relevance tag

I saw this revert. Aren't we still debating this issue? If so, isn't the tag justified?VR _talk 02:09, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, we are still debating it, and if it were added by anyone but MoorNextDoor, I'd've left it, but said editor obviously only did it to be WP:POINT-y. If you'd like to re-add it, please do. I'll accept it from anyone who isn't being deliberately contentious. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 13:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

If you take a closer look at the revert, you'll see that I was the one whom you reverted - your edit summary says so. Anyway, I guess I'll restore the tag.VR _talk 14:59, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I apologize. I mistook who was who---too many reverts in too short a time. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 19:36, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Islam and blasphemy

The article states "On the other hand, some Muslims claim that the satire of religion, of religious representatives and—above all—of the Muslim prophet is forbidden blasphemy in Islam and can be punished by death."

Actually Muslim positions on satire and depictions of Muhammad are complicated. There's first of all disagreement whether Muhammad can be depicted. Some say yes, some say no. Among those who say no, there is disagreement whether depictions constitute blasphemy and whether blasphemy is punishable by death. Is this article really the place to go into Islamic theology? And if we are going into Islam's position on blasphemy, why not also discuss Islam's prohibition on terrorism, as agreed by almost all of the world's Muslims (except a few radical ones)?VR _talk 18:24, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

VR, I'am the writer of the lines you are citing, and all your points are relevants. Feel free to improve the section ! That's welcome. Note that some users are hard liner and may remove such [common sense and important!] statements if not externally sourced. Yug (talk) 13:19, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

• Of course, it should not be dealt with in-depth in this article. You might want something succinct like: "There is disagreement in Islam regarding the depiction of Muhammad; extreme interpretations hold that the depiction and satire of him are blasphemy and punishable by death." Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:15, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Sure. But then we must also mention that pretty much all mainstream Muslims condemn terrorism and vigilantism. Even countries which have laws against blasphemy (e.g. Pakistan) are opposed to terrorism. Of course, disagreement comes from Muslims linked to or sympathetic to Al-Qaeda and ISIS, but that's hardly a surprise.VR _talk 01:56, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
    • So what's your proposed (and cited) wording? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:04, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Current version states, at the opening of a paragraph: "Images of Muhammad are not banned in Islam." This is incorrect, partly because it's untenable to make a sweeping generalization about all of Islam, and partly because there is a well-documented aniconism in Islam, especially regarding Muhammad. Numerous sources would support a far more nuanced opening to this paragraph, e.g., CNN[2] or BBC [3]. Perhaps a better opening would be, "Though the Quran does not explicitly ban images, [many] authoritative Islamic views have long opposed human images, especially those of prophets." Not sure what qualifier, e.g., many, would be helpful. Thanks, ProfGray (talk) 06:23, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

In depth article on authors radicalisation

• The Guardian (01/13), Charlie Hebdo attackers: born, raised and radicalised in Paris, Guardian.uk {{citation}}: Check date values in: |date= and |year= / |date= mismatch (help) Yug (talk) 18:29, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I added it to the section on said and cherif kouachi. Sayerslle (talk) 18:56, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Sayerslle. I used it to source some sentences in the background section, which expressely link the socio-economics of (muslim) immigrants to the attackers. This as some wikipedians insistedly required to accept a source, and despite is weaken greatly our ability to work meaningfully on this article's background section. Yug (talk) 19:59, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Why is the Infobox mass murderer for?

I have seen in this article some Infobox for terrorist.

Those box looks like a «kill them all» video game score/record. Is really the goal of wikipedia to give a good picture of them or to induce a competition?

Additionally, they are not djihadist but terrorist.

This Infobox name is names «mass murderer». — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.185.253.142 (talk) 22:30, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Move?

– I think that 2015 Paris attacks or something should be the name of the Article. Yogurto (talk) 18:14, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Agree Such a move is long overdue. It is clear that the Charlie Hebdo shooting was just one part of a larger terrorist attack (the other one being the Porte de Vincennes hostage crisis). That currently 2015 Paris attacks is a redirect to this page and the victims of Porte de Vincennes are not even mentioned in the infobox but buried somewhere deep down is pretty outrageous too. User:Gugganij (talk) 13:48, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

 Comment: May I also add that nearly half of the total deaths involved in the incidents were from the other events, and are not even mentioned in the infobox at the top of the page.There is only a brief paragraph about the attacks in the intro and you have to scroll halfway down the page before you get any details about the other attacks. Certainly is inexcusable. 72.87.108.194 (talk) 15:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose, this is more of an argument for splitting. There will have to be an article on the Charlie Hedbo attack. This is that article. Instead, create the article 2015 Paris attacks or whatever and have it be the container for all these attacks. Abductive (reasoning) 18:27, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

 Comment: But wouldn't that just be copying a lot of the same information from the Charlie Hebdo page to a new one? As it is right now with the individual pages on Charlie Hebdo and Porte de Vincennes and no main page it's rather confusing because the separation seems to infer that the events were not related. 72.87.108.194 (talk) 19:12, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

No... the article would be split, not copied. Gamebuster19901 (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. The 2015 Paris attacks article would be a bare bones overview article leading most people to whatever it was that they were looking for. Abductive (reasoning) 04:54, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

 Disagree This article should not be renamed. This article is about the charlie hebdo shooting. The other ones are included near the bottom because they are not entirely about charlie hebdo, but are related. Second, Not all of the attacks were in paris, so that name is too inaccurate. Gamebuster19901 (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

 Comment: How would you feel about 2015 Île-de-France attacks then? After all, the way some things are stated by the media are not always the truth. For example, shortly after the first attack, it was being called by many media outlets the "deadliest terrorist attack in Europe since the 2005 London bombings" which is obviously not true, and therefore it was removed from the Wikipedia article. This demonstrates that how things are worded by the media does not have to be the same way they are worded in Wikipedia. The same applies to media calling the incidents the "Paris attacks" rather than the "Île-de-France attacks;" even if "Paris" is not technically accurate, they say it because "Île-de-France" is not an area which non-locals are familiar with, so it's easier just to say Paris. So 2015 Île-de-France attacks would probably be best IMO; and it has the word "France" in it, so it won't be an unrecognizable term. Undescribed (talk) 03:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME "Paris attacks" appears to be used more in the media. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:49, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Done Due to the fact that many people are saying it would be best to have a general page for all the attacks, I have created a page titled 2015 Île-de-France attacks and which does just that. I have adjusted the infobox on the article accordingly as well. Hopefully it will settle this very controversial matter which has taken days to be resolved. Undescribed (talk) 07:42, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• I Oppose anything related to name changing and Agree with the creation of the 2015 Île-de-France attacks parent article. Further, that messy and outdated discussion for moving/renaming/splitting what have you -- of which no one wants to touch or add to anymore -- could probably be best closed and forgotten about. Creating the parent article pretty much solves most of the problem. Zup326 (talk) 21:15, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Agree 100% with the above statement. Gamebuster19901 (talk) 21:21, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Claims regarding Military Training

Sky News, in this report, makes some pretty strong claims regarding military training evident from the videos of the gunmen. I've added a paragraph at the appropriate section but I would greatly appreciate if an editor more familiar with military/infantry tactics and maneuvers expanded/improved the section. Myopia123 (talk) 12:48, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

A bit about Merabet

I added a bit about Merabet, but it was removed. I disagree. This is what I had added: According to Ahmed's brother, Malek Merabet, the police officer "was very proud of the name Ahmed Merabet and was proud to represent the police and of defending the values of the Republic – liberty, equality, fraternity."

In response to the shootings, we created several articles on the victims. Also, we have a statement from Charb's partner "I always knew he was going to die like Theo van Gogh," which is something said in hindsight. So why can't we have a statement from Merabet's brother about his service in the police?VR _talk 13:53, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

As the reverting editor, I am sure that every deceased was proud of their name and their job. I see no significance in such a statement, no matter who made the comment. WWGB (talk) 13:58, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

What's wrong with talking about victims of the Charlie Hebdo shooting? Surely the victims are just as relevant to this article as the perpetrators.VR _talk 17:34, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Why not create an article on Ahmed Merabet? Surely by now he will have enough secondary sources? And I'll bet they name a street or school after him in the near future. Abductive (reasoning) 18:31, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Well let's start with a bit here. If we have enough, we can make a secondary article. I personally don't think we have enough information on him by secondary sources to justify a separate article.VR _talk 02:12, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Survivors' issue of Charlie Hebdo

I have made a Charlie Hebdo after attack issue article; so please help expand and improve. The title may also need tweaking. Iselilja (talk) 15:44, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Mustapha Ourrad (fr)

The article claims, Mustapha was Muslim is there any source ? I've read in some french article that he claimed to be an atheist with a Sufi background. a muslim background is not enough to be called a muslim (especially when the person claimed to be atheist) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.78.254.31 (talk) 18:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Yep. His friends claim he used to call himself an "atheist Sufi". He was a fan of Nietzche. XavierItzm (talk) 13:28, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Here's one of the sources that describe Mustapha Ourad as a Muslim.

Here's some food for thought. Cherif Kouachi described himself as a "ghetto Muslim". Other RS describe the brothers as "occasional Muslims". Why are some people describing them as simply Muslims ? MoorNextDoor (talk) 15:49, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Because they murdered people with an Islamic motive. When you shout about Allah and boast about killing alleged blasphemers, it doesn't really matter whether you prayed five times a day or not at all. '''tAD''' (talk) 13:54, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Soap-boxing-V- fair comment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

In the interests of free speech, I ask whether the soon-to-be-deleted section was 'soap-boxing' - or fair comment on the possible impact of US policy? Whatever it was, the US State Department did not wasted any time getting it take down. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.15.142 (talk) 18:40, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Shouldnt a merge happen?

Hello, shouldn't both the hostage crisis and the shooting be merged as an article on the January 2015 terror in France? or Paris or something? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simen113 (talk • contribs) 20:08, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it should. Either that or create a page called "2015 Paris attacks" to summarize all of the events. 72.87.108.194 (talk) 22:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Coco's daughter

Corinne "Coco" is pissed off at Wikipedia for getting the facts wrong: her Twitter message reads:

Wikipedia dit que de la merde sur le 7 janvier. 1bonne fois pour toutes, j étais pas avec ma fille, j ALLAIS la chercher au moment des faits

It's too bad we have to take the fall for this, and not the shitty reporting that tells us in headlines:

• "Gunmen threatened cartoonist and young daughter to force entry into Charlie Hebdo offices"
• "Charlie Hebdo Cartoonist Corrine Rey Says She Let Terrorists inside and Hid under her Desk with Toddler Daughter".
• "Charlie Hebdo cartoonist reveals terrorists threatened to murder her toddler unless she let them in - and how she cowered with child under desk as massacre took place"
• "Charlie Hebdo Paris shooting: 'I let gunmen into building to save my child and I'"
• "Paris Shooting: Terrorists Threaten To Shoot Toddler During Attack"
• along with dozens that tell us the same story without putting it in the headlines. Of course, Wikipedia put the media up to it, eh? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:26, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Good finds Curly Turkey! Now, the French media are already putting out long, detailed interviews with the survivors, and some of these inaccuracies get corrected. However, going by your rule that "Sources give by far the greatest weight to the condemnations", then certainly the Wikipedia must keep the version where she had her daughter with her! Because I assure you one or two long form articles on Le Monde are going to be quantitatively less sources than what you cited above.
Live by the sword, die by the sword. XavierItzm (talk) 13:39, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• It ain't "my rule", XavierItzm, and you're going over a cliff here equating a factual error with an ideological disagreement. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 19:58, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
  • No ideological disagreement. I am willing to embrace the rule "Sources give by far the greatest weight to the condemnations"; i.e., we go give more weight to RS sources and do not undertake any sort of rational analysis. In this case, clearly more RS say the victim was with the daughter, and therefore, the victim needs be ignored. XavierItzm (talk) 17:58, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
    • "No ideological disagreement"? Then no need to rearrange the reactions section. Glad that's settled! Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:55, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

@Curly Turkey: I take it she aint happy! (I get the Merde=shit). Can someone translate that fully into English? --220 of ^Borg 01:35, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

"Wikipedia's talking shit about 7 January." She wasn't with her daughter, she was going to go find her. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:49, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Yep she's 'pissed off'! Thanks Curly Turkey. (how do you 'curl' a turkey?) Indeed many sources said what we reported, she should hassle them! 220 of ^Borg

I know—after all, Wikipedia didn't put her daughter in the headlines. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:56, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Trying to tighten the "Muslims in France" background thing

Okay, so I've added this. I'm hoping with a bit more tweaking we can drop the "Laïcité and blasphemy" subsection entirely. Discuss, please. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 02:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

MoorNextDoor has removed the following text with the edit comment: Charlie Hebdo satirical works: WP:SYNTH You cannot combine material from multiple sources to blame the Muslims or anyone else for the actions of 3 criminals:

Since the 1960s, the Muslim population of European countries such as France and Germany has been growing. By the time of the shooting, the Muslim population of France had surpassed 5 million, which was the largest Muslim population in the European Union. While most French Muslims abide by the values of the country, French colonialism in Algeria and the Algerian War of 1954–62 remain in the memories of many French of Algerian descent, many of whom feel their ethnic background has excluded them from mainstream French society. A 1905 French law enshrines secularism, or laïcité, in French public life; niqabs, yarmulkes, and other ostentatious symbols have been outlawed in public schools; this runs counter to Muslim traditions of the public display of their faith, and is undergoing court challenges.

As clearly no "blaming" has been done, nor anything resembling WP:SYNTH, I've reverted it as vandalism. MoorNextDoor has an agenda and his edits should be monitored. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:00, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Multiple people have been complaining about this material, and you are outnumbered. The article needs to tone down the general material on Muslims. Abductive (reasoning) 04:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Abductive: Your comment is gibberish: This is the result of removing several paragraphs worth of material, when several others have been calling for its expansion. Please pay attention before making non-sequitur comments. We're all aware of your biases and the reason for your block—it doesn't look good for you to support a fellow edit-warrior. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:58, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Note: Abductive's position is that all of this material must be effaced from the article, and had himself blocked for doing just that. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:00, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

No, I was not blocked for doing that; I was blocked for violating 3RR to keep this crap off the page. You have lost now that more people have determined that the material can't be in the article. Abductive (reasoning) 21:32, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I was blocked for violating 3RR to keep this crap off the page: What I said. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:35, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

If that's WP:SYNTH, I don't know what is. Explain to me what is the purpose of the background section and what makes you think you know better than the French themselves ? MoorNextDoor (talk) 04:24, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

That's right, you don't know what WP:SYNTH is, neither do you care, nor are you willing to listen. You certainly have made no effort to demonstrate it. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:39, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Do not make personal attacks, read WP:PERSONAL. Just answer the question please. MoorNextDoor (talk) 04:46, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Do not make accusations of personal attacks. I've stated facts: you refuse to listen to those you are "discussing" with, and you refuse to make any effort whatsoever to back up your accusations of WP:SYNTH. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:50, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH is exactly that, a paragraph of "facts" from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. What is the purpose of the background section and what do any of those "facts" have to do with the actions of the 3 criminals ? MoorNextDoor (talk) 04:59, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

And the supposed conclusion implied is ... ? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 13:54, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

That the Muslims and the immigrants are to take the blame for what happened, which is completely wrong and you know it. I repeat the question: What is the purpose of the background section and what do any of those "facts" have to do with the actions of the 3 criminals ? MoorNextDoor (talk) 16:05, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

1. Please explain how "While most French Muslims abide by the values of the country" can be interpreted as "the Muslims and the immigrants are to take the blame for what happened".
2. I've answered your question several times already.
3. Please demonstrate WP:SYNTH, or retract the accusation.

Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 19:41, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

1. What does "While most French Muslims abide by the values of the country" means ? Why is such statement relevant to Muslims only ?
   • What, you're saying it excludes other ethnicities? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:02, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
2. You still haven't answered the most important question: What is the purpose of the background section and what do any of those "facts" have to do with the actions of the 3 criminals ?
   • If you're truly interested in the answer, you wouldn't ignore it each it I give it to you. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:02, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
3. I already did. Answer the question above and everything will become clear to you.
   • You've asserted (without evidence) that I've combined sources to reach a conclusion that "the Muslims and the immigrants are to take the blame for what happened". I've demonstrated (with evidence) that not only is this false, but that the paragraph says exactly the opposite. When will you retract your falsified assertion? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:02, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

MoorNextDoor (talk) 21:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

There is no evidence that the attackers are motivated by French culture; the section doesn't belong.David O. Johnson (talk) 05:08, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

What is this statement even supposed to mean? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:13, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Due to a post at ANi I just reviewed this disputed section as an uninvolved editor, and I think it does not belong in this article. There is enough there for a stand alone article, and it might be worth linking to it, but it is not appropriate for this article. Please stop edit warring over it. Legacypac (talk) 07:17, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Legacypac: this isn't about the disputed section—that's a separate discussion. It's very specifically about this one paragraph, which is in the general "Background" section (or was—the editwarring is fast and furious). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 07:26, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

• For the record, and with all due respect to everyone, I still oppose any mention of Muslim demographics in France. I think the background section should focus on things like Charlie Hebdo, it's drawings of Muhammad, and perhaps even Al-Qaeda. The Muslim population of France is not relevant, IMO.VR _talk 08:24, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Do you agree with MoorNextDoor that the single paragraph I've presented above is WP:SYNTH, or do you simply believe it's not necessary? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:35, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

having wanted it all removed I have changed as regard the odd sentence or two about muslims in fance partly because , muslims in france have been discussed in RS in articles directly pertaining to these attacks and partly because it seems inconceivable that the hebdo muslim-related cartoons, as with the catholic-related cartoons would not exist in the quantity they do without the expectation of being understood by their readership - why does hebdo not have lots of Zoroastrian cartoons - (i'm assuming they don't)- because there aren't lots of zoroastrian symbols and wouldn't be understood - surely the content against religions , the pope, prophet etc is because the cartoons use stuff from the culture that surrounds the makers of the art and consumers of the art - so the rise in the muslim population is kind of related to the magazine , its content, its fate, - that's my , poorly expressed opinion. Sayerslle (talk) 13:59, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Curly Turkey: I think it's completely irrelevant.

Vice regent: If it's irrelevant, why do you think so many mainstream newssources have devoted so much space to explaining these background demographics? Why do you think Wikipedia should make such an exemption? I'm afraid this would spill over into Andiar.rohnds‎ territory, where he places support above condemnation because he feels that the way it should be. Should we really be cherrypicking our sources to match our personal versions of what we think should be there? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 19:53, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Sayerslle, you're right that the Charlie Hebdo may have made these cartoons after being alarmed by the increase in Muslim population of their country. They could also have made this cartoon due to anti-Muslim sentiments in both Europe and France. If we are to mention Muslim demographics in a sentence or two, we should also mention that this is a minority subject to frequent discrimination by the French (also in a sentence or two).VR _talk 15:03, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I didn't mean they were alarmed by the increase - I just meant they deal with the real world around them - so it gets reflected in their art - more mosques in real world around them, more mosques in their art ,kind of thing-that's all - some of their former contributors - fr:Olivier Cyran, a hostile witness it seems to Charlie hebdo, says in this article - they became more obsessed with Islam pas raciste si vous - the left is a bit split - Sayerslle (talk) 15:27, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

This seems to be pure editor speculation, which is not a valid basis for including any content in the article. If we can find sources that say that the cartoonists were reacting to an increase in mosques in France, then it might be fine to cite them. But in the absence of that, we can't just make stuff up that seems plausible to us. Formerip (talk) 15:47, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

of course, - the difference between discussing on a talk page and the article itself - in the meantime the article by cyran pas raciste si vous certainly shows more examples of the -pretty visceral - art - ( just discussing , didn't mean to annoy you formerip NOTFORUM, I know, I know. Sayerslle (talk) 15:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Don't worry I'm not annoyed. You say that as if you have heard rumours about what I might do to you!

Main point is we shouldn't be coatracking content into the article that isn't in sources directly related to the article topic. Formerip (talk) 15:55, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes - actually at leninstomb,via louisproyect, I found the article translated into English Charlie hebdo not racist if you say so - so its not just making stuff up, if RSsources from former writers in English are available)- (from 2013 -so probably better at main if use-able at Charlie Hebdo article, not here - ma faute Sayerslle (talk) 15:58, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

#KillAllMuslims

I recently went to Twitter and saw that the hashtag #KillAllMuslims is becoming a trend, I have no idea of how to edit the page but anyone can help me if this edit is accepted about the trending hashtag, similarly #KillAllChristians is also abit less trending than the Muslim hashtag Xizuki (talk) 13:33, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I wonder if this content might be more appropriate at Je suis Charlie rather than this article. It seems like the hashtag was trending mainly through people saying "what a disgusting hashtag", rather than through people wanting to kill all Muslims. That's something that should be taken into account in deciding whether it is significant enough to include on WP (because not every single instance of something trending on Twitter is). Formerip (talk) 13:41, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

BBC News (of all places!) revealed this was left-wing/Muslim rather than an actual online pogrom. Either by conspiracy or by a stupid accident, they promoted the hashtag themselves while voicing their disdain to a very small amount of anti-Muslim people tweeting it http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-30728491

I wrote on Twitter that this hashtag is just a bullshit to me, thats why I was wondering why was this so trending. Xizuki (talk) 08:05, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism?

Hello, Elsa Cayat was of Jewish religion and there was a direct French reference for it (not the NY-cousin thing) from one of the Newspapers of Record. Yet this was deleted.
Wolinkski was Tunisian-born and ethnic Jew. This was deleted.
However, for the other victims who were Muslim, their country of birth and religion is shown.
Is this something everyone has agreed to? XavierItzm (talk) 13:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think this is vandalism. We normally don't mention people's ethnicity or religion except where we have reliable sourcing both to show that they identify with that ethnicity/religion and that it is especially relevant to the article content in question. It doesn't look like those criteria are met except in the case of Ahmed Merabet. We don't seem to have sourcing that Mustapha Ourrad even was a Muslim, so I will remove that. Formerip (talk) 14:39, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I think that the Jewish religion of these victims should be restored. But this is not vandalism.VR _talk 15:06, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

' Done.Done. XavierItzm (talk) 19:12, 17 January 2015 (UTC)'

I've re-removed the reference to Ourrad being Muslim. Someone added two sources to support this. One was the Daily Mail, which certainly doesn't pass RS for this type of material. The other was Le Monde, which would be an acceptable source, but that source doesn't support the information. Formerip (talk) 16:38, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Formerip You say that the daily mail is not reliable enough to consider him as a Muslim, how about the Guardian ?

This has already been discussed. If for whatever reason, their religion or their ethnicity (these are simple facts) has been reported by RS, then by all means, it should be mentioned, period. MoorNextDoor (talk) 16:57, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I didn't remove the fact that he is an Algerian citizen, that is still there.

The new source you have provided is not from the Guardian, it is from Comment Is Free, a collection of blogs on the Guardian website. Also not RS for the statement.

It's not true that ethnicity and religion should always be mentioned. Our articles would be a mess of ethnicities and religions if that were the case. Why, for example, are we only concerned with who is a Jew and who is a Muslim? Maybe one of the victims was half Inuit or a Jain. Why should we not mention this too?

Purely in the case of Ourrad, though, it looks likely to me that he was actually an atheist. This source says he described himself as an "atheist sufi". I'm not sure about the reliability of the source, but it looks better than the others. Formerip (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

My bad, I didn't notice the Guardian's blog. However, the tamurt source is complete rubbish, that website (without even an address) has no credibility whatsoever.

You make a good point about ethnicities and religions. Why are we mentioning the origin of the killer's parents ? Why are we describing the killers as Muslims since none of the RS describe them as such ? MoorNextDoor (talk) 18:03, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

The Moornextdoor keeps badmouthing the Kabyle media (an oppressed ethnic minority of Algeria) (for example: Tamurt) and deleting any references based on Kabyle media.
However, "Newspaper of Record" Le Monde says the same thing as Tamurt: "Atheist Sufi"
“athée soufi”
http://correcteurs.blog.lemonde.fr/2015/01/09/mustapha-un-dernier-mercredi-chez-charlie/
Oh, and BTW, Ourrad preferred to refer to himself as Kabyle over Algerian.

Main article redirect "2015 Île-de-France attacks"

Even if it is not termed as "main article" shouldn't there at least be some sort of redirect link on the top of the page to this article? Undescribed (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I think I have something for that. -- Orduin ^⋠T⋡ 18:13, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

What is it? Undescribed (talk) 18:21, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

If needed, you could add this template, or this one, to provide a similar effect.

However, I think you might want to look for consensus before adding it to the page. Maybe not. -- Orduin ^⋠T⋡ 18:23, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. The second format would be best imo. But yes, we should probably wait for more consensus first. Undescribed (talk) 18:33, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Thoughts? Undescribed (talk) 18:35, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I think it should be added to the top of the page Gamebuster19901 (talk) 21:22, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Looks like it's already added. Xharm (talk) 22:08, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Good work. It looks good at the top of the page. Zup326 (talk) 22:51, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Possible related operations in Belgium

There seem to be numerous possibly-related police operations ongoing in Belgium at the moment: see 2015 Verviers police raid -- Impsswoon (talk) 19:37, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

They are saying for now that they appear to be unrelated to the Paris attacks, but the possibility is still under investigation. Undescribed (talk) 20:32, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Apologies to all

I accept responsibility for my part in the ill will that has spread here and has contributed to poor quality of the discussion.

Please sign below to express your commitment to renew a good-faith dialogue on all issues to do with this article.

1. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:35, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Background discussion reboot

The discussions are such a mess that they have become nearly impossible to follow. I propose we renew the discussion to keep it accessible, so let's clearly and concisely restate our concerns: how much "Background" there should be, what parts are appropriate, if any, etc. Commenters in this section should follow the code of conduct; those who wish not to follow it are free to continue commenting in the still-open discussions above. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:49, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

How much "Background" is appropriate?

How much and what kind of background information should be in this article? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:49, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• Let's follow this Code of Conduct

1. Assume Good Faith
2. Back up all assertions with evidence.
3. Focus on the argument, not the arguer, and avoid rehashing older disputes.

Curly Turkey's position

We need information on the background demographics of the incident. It should be kept concise---one to two paragraphs---and should not be have its own subsection, so it doesn't draw undue attention to itself. I've made a few attempts at doing so: this is my most recent.

• WP:DUE: Major news sources have devoted entire articles to this stuff:
  • Power, Carla. "Why There's Tension Between France and Its Muslim Population". Time. Retrieved 12 January 2015.
  • Blair, David (8 January 2015). "Charlie Hebdo attack: the tormented links between France and Algeria". The Telegraph. Retrieved 16 January 2015.
  • Fisk, Robert (9 January 2015). "Charlie Hebdo: Paris attack brothers' campaign of terror can be traced back to Algeria in 1954". The Independent. Retrieved 16 January 2015.
  • Marlowe, Lara (10 January 2015). "'Charlie Hebdo': why jihad came to Paris". The Irish Times. Retrieved 16 January 2015.
  • Steven Erlanger and Katrin Bennhold (7 January 2015). "'Dangerous Moment' for Europe, as Fear and Resentment Grow". The New York Times. Retrieved 16 January 2015. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
  • Many include such details without devoting an article to them. Wikipedia must give weight to articles that the sources do---and the sources give these details considerable weight.
• Context: Initial reports emphasized the gunmen spoke "perfect French": BBC, CNN, and over 2000 hits on Google News Search alone. This is obviously surprising to a great deal of (most?) English-speakers who (a) assume Muslim terrorists would be foreigners (à la 9/11); and (b) do not know that France has a large population of Muslims (the largest in the EU). The large number of English-language news sources carrying these details strongly suggest they recognize the need to dispell readers' preconceptions on these issues; my own experience talking to people in real life about the incident affirms the need to clarify (briefly) these details.
• Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 01:49, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Gamebuster19901's position

• I don't believe we need any demographical information regarding the entire country of France, as it strays too far from the topic at hand, and I do not see how it is related at all. Though many news sources put weight on this factor, Wikipedia is not a news source, and shouldn't strive to be a news source, we don't need to include opinions/a pro-con list.

• Secondly them speaking perfect french would not be a surprise to a reader who has actually read the article, as it states they were french citizens, Is it really surprising that french citizens speak french? (Quote from article: "The two Muslim French nationals,[Citations here] both born in Gennevilliers, were aged 34 and 32 respectively.[Citations here])" Surely nobody would assume that there are no Muslims in France.

• Thirdly, The information is presented in present tense, while the article itself is in past tense. The fact that it uses inappropriate use of tense puts undue weight on itself, and also shows how unrelated that content really is. While that information may be accurate, that information will always be changing and will become inaccurate. Stating that it was at a certain percentage at a point in time before the actual attacks would make the information irrelevant.

• And lastly, if the information is included from consensus, please remove the obvious bias:

Anti-Muslim opinions are held by 27% of the French public, according to a May 2014 Pew Research survey.[47] A January 2013 Ipsos survey published in Le Monde found that 74% of French citizens view Islam as "intolerant" and "incompatible" with French values.[48] The same 2013 study found that 8 out of 10 French believe that Islam seeks to impose its values on others.[48]

An August 2014 ICM survey found that one in six French citizens (16%) sympathises with the Islamist group ISIS - also known as Islamic state.[49] Support for ISIS rose to 27% of French citizens aged between 18 and 24.[49] Newsweek’s France Correspondent Anne-Elizabeth Moutet stated, "This is the ideology of young French Muslims from immigrant backgrounds [who are] unemployed to the tune of 40%, who’ve been deluged by satellite TV and internet propaganda."[49]

Gamebuster19901 (talk) 03:56, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• The two paragraphs above are much too long, and the citations are not in the context of the shootings (for example, a Le Monde article from 2013). The article should be restricted to sources about the subject.
  Issues of tense are handled by changing to an appropriate tense.
• Is it really surprising that french citizens speak french: when you word it that way, it sounds silly, but the news is not reporting "Two Native French Citizens Shoot Twelve Other French Citizens". Thus we make it clear that there is nothing unusual about a French-speaking Muslim by saying so. This is why sources put such weight on it, because it's something readers don't know (and are likely to assume otherwise). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:46, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• Including the demographic information draws a causal link between the growth and distribution of the Muslim population and the heinous acts of a few Islamists. Therefore the material cannot be in the article. Multiple editors have removed this material, only to be continuously reverted by one editor. Therefore the consensus already exists to not have this material in the article. Further discussion must take place without the material disgracing the article. Abductive (reasoning) 05:06, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
  • If there are multiple editors reverting the same material back and forth, then by definition there is no consensus. Please, Abductive, in this discussion we are discussing the merits and demerits of the text in question and assuming good faith, not pointing fingers. Please strike those portions of your comments. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:38, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• I have to agree with abductive, it does imply that there is a link between growth and distribution of the Muslim population and the shootings. We won't be able to establish a link without using bias sources. Gamebuster19901 (talk) 05:25, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Gamebuster19901: The paragraph I wrote makes no such causal link, and in fact explicitly contradicts it. Have you read it? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:38, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
    • No I haven't read it, Perhaps you could post it here as a response? Gamebuster19901 (talk) 05:48, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
      • I was hoping to avoid that, as I've already posted it on this talk page, and I've linked to it several times. Here it is:

Extended content

Since the 1960s, the Muslim population of European countries such as France and Germany has been growing. By the time of the shooting, the Muslim population of France had surpassed 5 million, which was the largest Muslim population in the European Union. While most French Muslims abided by the values of the country, French colonialism in Algeria and the Algerian War of 1954–62 remained in the memories of many French of Algerian descent, some of whom felt their ethnic background had excluded them from mainstream French society. A 1905 French law enshrines secularism, or laïcité, in French public life; niqābs, yarmulkes, and other symbols deemed ostentatious have been outlawed in public schools; this runs counter to Muslim traditions of the public display of their faith, and has been challenged in court.

All of this is sourced to articles about the incident, and none of it implies blame on Muslims as a group (in fact, it explicitly contradicts that view—the contradiction is also sourced). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I need time to think and to review everything, As I see both sides of the debate are logical. Gamebuster19901 (talk) 06:32, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

(Uninvolved editor; I have read the discussions) I applaud this group of editors who are taking productive steps to resolving this. As you can all plainly see above, it is a more positive experience to actually begin to understand each other's positions and try to compromise in order to attempt to reach a productive result. I think I can understand both positions here (i.e. Why include background on innocent Muslims? and Why not have background on the socio-political climate?). Now, from where I can see, one editor has actually done some work researching and writing a proposed solution. I challenge the other editors to attempt the same. To get you started, I suggest someone research and write another proposed background paragraph (i.e. background on the terrorists themselves? Here is a possible source.). Good luck and sincere best wishes to everyone. Prhartcom (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

While that is a good source, most of that information is already in the section about Chérif and Saïd Kouachi. Gamebuster19901 (talk) 23:52, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I have gone through the paragraph and attempted to make it sound more neutral to help with both sides of the argument, Would this work? I personally would be fine including the information below because it is not irrelevant (It explains why many French Muslims are upset, but doesn't make general statements about all French Muslims) Gamebuster19901 (talk) 23:52, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Extended content

Since the 1960s, the Muslim population of European countries such as France and Germany has been growing. While most French Muslims abided by the values of France, French colonialism in Algeria and the Algerian War of 1954–62 remained in the memories of some French of Algerian descent, some of whom felt their ethnic background had excluded them from mainstream French society. For example: A 1905 French law enshrines secularism, or laïcité, in French public life; niqābs, yarmulkes, and other symbols deemed ostentatious have been outlawed in public schools; this runs counter to Muslim traditions of the public display of their faith, and has been challenged in court for breach of freedom of religion.

• I would support this version. I just have a question: why do you feel the population figures should be removed? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 03:09, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

• Because it seems to imply that the growing population is harmful to France. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but I could see how a reader would think that it was an issue. Gamebuster19901 (talk) 15:38, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I suggest adding this improved version then as soon as possible, of course mentioning this discussion in the edit summary, and when/if an editor or IP removes it, calmly ping them to this discussion so that they can get caught up and hopefully see that they were wrong to do so. You may revert their removal at that time also or you may first wait for their acknowledgement here (I would not revert the same editor more than once per 24 hours, though). Good work. Prhartcom (talk) 17:47, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Removal of simple inline descriptions of weapons

User:Trackteur has been deleting the simple descriptions of what these weapons are (eg. "assault rifle", "rocket launcher", "submachine gun") from the intro to the article, on the basis that readers can just click the links on things like "Škorpion vz. 61" or "M80 Zolja" to find out what they are.

I believe this is counterproductive, and contrary to our convention of plain writing. Most readers are not arms experts, and it's unreasonable to expect them to click on the description of a weapon to find out what kind of weapon it is. For most purposes, they only want to know what kind of weapon these are (ie that they had "some submachine guns, a shotgun, and a rocket launcher"), and putting it in inline text suffices. If they want full details, then that's when they can click on the link and go to the full article. Adding the weapon names is a bonus, but the crucial information for most readers is the kind of weapon.

To Trackteur: instead of just reverting me again, please comment here before doing so. -- The Anome (talk) 16:36, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

• I agree; if the reader has to click through to something just to find out what it is, the writing has failed. The links are there for people who want details. This is why we don't link dates, for instance, or everyday items, or major countries, per WP:OVERLINK. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:03, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Skorpion vs. AK-47

The AK-47 mention in the lede keeps on getting deleted: Trackteur asserts that the Skorpion is the AK-47 variant in question. I think this is wrong, and I think both the text, and the image in the cited source support me on this.

The source cited says "The weapons seen in various images of the attackers include a variant of the famous AK47; a Czech-made sub-machine gun called a Scorpion; several Russian-designed Tokarev TT pistols and a grenade or rocket launcher — probably the Yugoslav M80 Zolja."[4] This is not saying that the Skorpion is the AK-47 variant. Look at the picture in the cited source, showing one of the terrorists holding a weapon: and in particular where the magazine is located on the weapon. On the Škorpion vz. 61, it's situated toward the front of the very short-barrelled weapon; on the AK-47, and on the weapon in the image, it's situated toward the rear of the much longer-barrelled weapon. Now take a look at the pistol grip in the image. Again, AK-47-like, not Skorpion-like. The weapon depicted in the photo is clearly not a Skorpion.

@Trackteur: If I'm mistaken about this, please let me know what I've got wrong. -- The Anome (talk) 17:23, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Alas, Tracteur keeps on removing mention of the AK-47, in spite of the unanimity of sources that they were carrying AK-47-type rifles, and in spite of the fact that the sentence they are removing it from is directly supported by a cite that says exactly that in plain English (see above). Given this, I really can't see any sensible reason for their edits, which now appear to me to be purely destructive. I have attempted to engage them at their talk page: let's see if that does any good. -- The Anome (talk) 19:38, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

The Scorpion is definitely not an AK-47 variant and the weapon in the picture seems to be a folding-stock AK-47. 91.6.152.198 (talk) 22:15, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Use of Elsa Cayat image

We need to come to a consensus over the usage of the file named Elsa Cayat.jpg in this article. User:PinkAmpersand was one of the most recent people to remove the file, with the comment that "once again, rm File:Elsa Cayat.jpg due to lack of fair-use rationale; include warning against using it without rationale". It is completely unnecessary for User:Andiar.rohnds to launch a personal attack against me by stating that "your own talk page suggests your edits be taken with a grain of salt." Can you also explain the "*yawn* the fair use claim seems unauthentic" comment? David O. Johnson (talk) 03:51, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

It can't be used. NFC #8 is quite clear that the image must significantly impact reader understanding, not just serve as illustration or decoration. This image does not appreciably add to the reader's understanding of what happened at the Charlie Hebdo shootings, it is just part of a gallery. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 04:04, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree that it can't be used. Xharm (talk) 08:02, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Lead

Can someone explain why the lead was allowed to be gutted? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 03:16, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Background: Charlie Hebdo satyrical works mock far-right politics, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Israel, politics...

The Background sections reads it "publishes articles that mock far-right politics, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Israel, politics, culture...". Since far-right politics are included in politics, should not it be rephrased? (Sort of "...publishes articles that mock politics (especially far-right), Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Israel, culture...") --Javierme (talk) 22:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

How about changing "far-right politics" to "the far right"? I don't think CH limits its political targets to the far right, but does put an especial empahasis on them. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:52, 17 January 2015 (UTC)