Talk:2011 Norway attacks

How was he apprehended!?

How did this come to an end? Did he run out of ammo? Did he surrender when police came? Was he overtaken by people at the camp? How was he apprehended!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.172.19.51 (talk) 16:46, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Supposedly he was approached by the SWAT team and surrendered without a fight. No word if he had run out of ammo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.89.55.119 (talk) 18:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, this was reported on the news, in a police interview IIRC. Don't have a good link for it though Ketil (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Why was this deleted? How he was apprehended or surrendered should be added!

I'll look it up.82.27.19.246 (talk) 19:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

It could be berryed in this huge BBC timeline.[[1]]82.27.19.246 (talk) 20:06, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry but no 'timeline' posted in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.172.19.51 (talk) 22:06, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

According to tv2.no he dropped the weapons, and was later approached by police where he then surrendered himself. No shots by police were fired. His weapons were later found on the island.

-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.149.195 (talk) 23:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Attackers deleted Facebook as PDF-File

The attacker was not a muslim but a self declared conservative christian: http://www.solidprinciples.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Anders-Behring-Breivik-FACEBOOK.pdf --82.113.99.150 (talk) 05:45, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

He liked World of Warcraft and Call of Duty!! Video games made him do it!!! DARN YOU BLIZZ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.114.111 (talk) 05:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

No but rather the far right wing blogs he used to read and post. --82.113.99.150 (talk) 05:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Wrong 82.113.99.150. What's the matter with you? Determined to extract political mileage from this unspeakable act are you? You are not only flat-out wrong, you are also wrong to make such a claim in the first place. No one and nothing "makes" someone else do these kinds of horrific things. His own mental illness made him "do it," which is why there shouldn't be anything called "temporary insanity" as a defense to killing another human being. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.166.126.122 (talk) 00:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

No, not wrong as it is a fact that the far right wing is violent because it's inherent in their ideology, they are in a state of permanent war. --89.204.153.215 (talk) 06:40, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Israeli Reaction

The listed Israeli reaction doesn't appear to a valid news source. A Google search turns up nothing for "Jerusalem One", and I don't think a Tweet counts as official national reaction. I'm removing the listing. Windward1 (talk) 06:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Or, someone beat me to it. Windward1 (talk) 07:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

And anyway, we list only reactions by heads of states and other notable figures. Many countries have inviolable freedom of press, and the fact that someone would be as low as to publish or pretend to publish this kind of rubbish does not mean we should give them any more visibility they deserve. --hydrox (talk) 07:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The article also cites an Aftenposten article implying a relationship between islamphobia and support for Israel. I don't understand Norwegian, could someone check if the Aftenposten actually implied a relationship? If so, could someone explain what that relationship is, since in and of itself, the citation makes Aftenposten seem to have an anti-jewish prejudice? Is this actually the case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.116.249.117 (talk) 19:34, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I can look it up if you give me an URL. Aftenposten is considered a conservative newspaper, and thus more pro-Israel than most other media, although most media tend to lean towards the Palestinians. Ketil (talk) 21:07, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Ive searched on the web about the israeli connection. no match found in a newspaper. only in an iranian blog.

delete this part now! and how is the article that "showes" the sentence is from 2009? — Preceding unsigned comment added by IsraeliUpdater (talk • contribs) 23:26, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

ARTICLE ABOUT ISRAEL'S REACTION TO THE NORWEGIAN ATTACKS: http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/peres-to-norway-s-king-massacre-broke-our-hearts-in-israel-1.374996 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.173.27 (talk) 14:25, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Mentions of Israel

In the "Political and religious views" section about the terrorist's motivation, just 3 paragraphs long, Israel was mentioned six (!) times, and Judaism a few times more. This is absolutely ridiculous - this is a Norwegian terrorist in Norway, that has absolutely nothing to do with Israel, Israelis, or Jews. I can't belive his motivation had anything to do with Israel - it just doesn't make any sense! And I don't see any sources quoted to claim that it did have anything to do with Israel.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4099122,00.html 173.247.29.132 (talk) 21:37, 24 July 2011 (UTC) Please edit this story carefully, media is often unreliable in the early stages of reporting an event.

congratulations wikipedia you have once again succeeded in making the jews the bad guys, saying that a neo-nazi favors jews though sounds a little weird, but im sure that wont bother your anti-Semitic readers. you know they say that the protocols of the elders of zion and mein kampf are the most anti-semitic books but i think Wikipedia tops them both. good job wiki guys hitler salutes you, i may only pray that you join him along with all your friends in hell, speedily in our days amen.--207.230.209.138 (talk) 02:32, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Deadliest

One or more editors have added the claim that The shooting spree was the deadliest in modern Western history (assuming civilian victims), and the biggest act of violence in Norway since 1945..

I consider this hyperbole, and don't think it is notable. Stick to facts, and let the numbers speak for themselves. Ketil (talk) 21:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I've removed this [2] ; although they've cited refs, I see this as original research / novel synthesis, because I have not seen reliable sources making the claim.

Discussion, of course, welcome. 07:03, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I knows the BBC World claimed it was the worst and/or deadliest violence in Norway since WW2. Dunno about the deadliest shooting spree part though Nil Einne (talk) 07:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Isn't saying the deadliest violence even broader than saying deadliest shooting spree? In a sense, saying shooting spree is making it narrower and, thus, even more likely to be in line with the ref. Silverseren^C 07:20, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Um as I said, I'm talking about it being the deadliest/worst violence in Norway since WW2 (the text our unnamed friend said it was the biggest act of violence in Norway since 1945 which is fairly similar). As I though would also be clear from the context, when I referred to 'shooting spree part' I meant the text our unnamed friend above referred to it as the deadliest shooting spree in modern Western history (assuming civilian victims) which is a rather broad claim with very undefined terms. Now although rather broad because they refer to non overlappinmg subsets, this claim clearly isn't inherently broader then the Norway since WW2 part, i.e. it's possible that it is true but the Norway part isn't. Just as it's possible that the worst violence in Norway part is true but the shooting spree in modern Western history isn't. And as I said, there are refs (as a simple search will show) for the Norway part, but I have no idea if there are refs for the other part (and no, our article isn't a suitable ref). Nil Einne (talk) 07:28, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Somebody already noted that this is relevant for the article Killing spree. He seems to top anyone there, at least... --hydrox (talk) 07:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

We need a reference.

If a reliable source says it is the 'deadliest spree' or whatever...then, yes, we can add it.

Give a reliable source, please - otherwise, it would be original research.  Chzz  ►  07:26, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Note that spree killing would seem to be different from shooting spree. If this event is classified as a spree killing it seems to be taking in to account the bombings and the later shootings as spree killing requires two different locations. Even if you call the shootings a shooting spree, it seems it itself wasn't a spree killing (although it may have been part of one) as it was basically only in one location. Nil Einne (talk) 07:32, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

• The sources seem to be rather varied in their example of what it is the deadliest since.

• "deadliest day of terror in Western Europe since the 2005 London bombings" - Sydney Morning Herald
• "in western Europe's deadliest carnage since the 2004 Madrid bombings" - Independent Online

Most of them seem to be comparing it to the 2004 Madrid one though. Silverseren^C 07:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Ja. Hi Silver seren; was waiting for you to turn up :-) And, indeed, "halps!"

I've no objection to some generic "Bigger than X", "Smaller than Y", etc - of course - as long as some RS has said it. But...you already know what I mean.  Chzz  ►  08:06, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Why was the original version of this statement removed in the first place?. How exactly is it sensationalist? It's rather vital to discussing the subject by placing it in context. And more to the point it was removed for supposedly not being in the source yet it blatantly is!

"(CBS/AP)OSLO, Norway - A homegrown terrorist set off a deadly explosion in downtown Oslo before heading to a summer camp dressed as a police officer to commit one of the deadliest shooting sprees in history, killing at least 80 people as terrified youths ran and even swam for their lives, police said Friday." ChiZeroOne (talk) 13:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The Prime Minister himself has characterized the attacks in exactly that fashion: "The deadliest attacks [in the nation] since World War II" Surely you're not likely to find a more credible source to make that distinction. I'll try to relocate a link to the relevant press conference. 67.117.27.49 (talk) 15:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)Snow

The quote from the Prime Minister should be included in the article: it is sourced to a notable authority, not merely an evaluation by a random editor or even newsman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.7.107.178 (talk) 23:29, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

There are a wide number of separate sources now saying this was the deadliest shooting spree in history. Some of the sources: Utøya: Historiens verste drapsmassakre (Verdens Gang), Norway reels from world's worst-ever mass shooting as police quiz Anders Breivik over deaths of 91 people (The Daily Telegraph (Australia)), Kan være det verste hatangrepet verden har sett (E24 Næringsliv), Norway killings: the quiet and modest man who became peacetime Europe's worst mass killer (The Daily Telegraph), Minst 85 drept på Utøya (Bergens tidende). Maybe it's time too add this? Keeps getting removed when somebody adds it. And the numbers in the List of rampage killers speak for themselves. --Miceagol (talk) 12:19, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Archive

In the interests of keeping good order,

I've made Talk:2011 Norway attacks/Archive 1 and moved some of the earlier comments - which I believe are now outdated - to the archive.  Chzz  ►  07:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Reactions

I've removed it. WP:BOLD

[3]

It's like...we just quote stuff *because* we can quote it, because it is referenced.

How does it add to the understanding of the topic?

Maybe, perhaps, a parahraph or two, saying that the world was very very very sorry about it all...might be OK.

But all this? Seriously.

I can't think of a clean way of dealing with this, other than BOLDly removing it...I'm sure others will disagree with my action, and I welcome comments here.  Chzz  ►  07:52, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

A cleaner way: branch it to another article and await it's deletion. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 07:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I considered that, and it's a valid call; feel free to spin off "Reactions to the 2011 Norway attacks" if you want - it's probably notable. I'm just being pragmatic in my bold approach.  Chzz  ►  08:04, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Reaction sections are a very common method of organization for articles and they contain information that readers wish to see. The length of this one is, however, fairly extensive in comparison to the overall length of the article, but that only means we need to WP:SPLIT it off into it's own article and put a summary paragraph or two in this article with a main article link to it. Silverseren^C 08:04, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I had added this to the reactions section above (typing it in at the same time as other edits were being made), but it belongs in this later discussion: In an encyclopaedia do we need a reactions section, or article, at all? Simply saying that most countries sent condemnation, condolences, and solidarity is enough. This is all sincere, but virtually automatic and not news; everyone says essentially the same thing. It IS perhaps notable that Libya and Pakistan added other comments, as it is different from everyone else. I've added a sentence to that effect, but consider the rest of the reactions section to be unnecessary for an encyclopaedia as against a newspaper. Pol098 (talk) 07:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC) Added later: I see that the reactions section has been deleted; I have reinstated a very brief section, giving detail of only the two reactions different from the others. Pol098 (talk) 08:13, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Certain countries making comments and also certain comments, depending on what they say, are interesting and of importance to our readers. However, we cannot decide which reactions are of importance or interest, because that is original research. We have to include all of the reactions, since every one of them would be of importance to someone. For me, I always want to see who exactly is making the comment for the US and also, if it has to do with terrorism, what they say about it. Silverseren^C 08:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I make no apols for my abrupt actions. I've dealt with lots of these type of events now, and frankly, I've had enough of President Umbogo of Buugabuugaland said, "It's all very sad".  Chzz  ►  08:17, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree, this type of WP:NOTNEWS cruft is all too common, and will seem dated in a few months' time.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 08:20, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Adds nothing to the understanding of the event: it would be far more noteworthy if any head of government were to refuse such a statement of sympathy and outrage. This is an encyclopaedia, not a media-watch. One sentence would suffice. Kevin McE (talk) 08:25, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The issue is, it would be noteworthy in your opinion, but that opinion is one that shouldn't dictate inclusion. The sources should. Silverseren^C 08:26, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

• Isn't the usual practice to simply split it off into a big reactions page? -LtNOWIS (talk) 08:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
  • Support. I think that would be a good idea. --hydrox (talk) 08:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, there was some sort of a bug in my browser. I accidentaly reverted the article several hours back for 15 minutes, and the "reactions" list was restored for this period. Sorry for the inconvenience (and edit conflicts!) --hydrox (talk) 08:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Of cause eveyone says the attacks were bad. Why is that notable? Really only if someone says something good about them it would be notable. -Koppapa (talk) 08:40, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Now, just after the attacks, there is possibly newspaper-type interest in the reactions, but in 10 years' time is it going to be relevant that France condemned and condoled? When discussing this, we do need to think encyclopaedia, not current event. Pol098 (talk) 08:44, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

But we also need to understand that Wikipedia considers a far wider range of information than a normal encyclopedia. Sections that describe reactions from various countries gives information such as political climes of the time between the affected country and the responsive countries. That's one type of information that is useful and would remain useful ten years from now. Silverseren^C 08:49, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

That's part of the argument, yeah; the other part is: does it help undestand the subject - ie, "2011 Norway attacks". Just 'coz a load of people have said "ooh, yes, it is awful!" in various countries...does not, I think, help with our encyclopaedic understanding.  Chzz  ►  08:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

We must obviously agree to disagree, Silverseren. personally I can't see why information such as (randomly chosen): Chile: In a communiqué released by the Foreign Affairs MInistry, the government of Chile lamented the events at Oslo, calling the attacks an "unacceptable expression of violence that Chile strongly condemns." gives any information about the political clime (other than that Chile is not currently at war with Norway) or will be of any interest in ten years. More informative might be "Ruritania sent no message of condolence", and the genuine "Libya says it's NATO's fault". Pol098 (talk) 09:15, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I would agree that the Libya response is rather informative. However, again, us deciding which ones are more informative and useful is original research. We can't just decide to keep some of them and deciding to remove all of them also removes genuine useful information that is beneficial to the article. Thus, we should keep them all in. Silverseren^C 09:21, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

With all due respect, Silver seren, please be quiet and listen to Chzz and Pol098. They are correct, you are wrong. --87.78.54.22 (talk) 09:25, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

"We can't just decide to keep some of them" [..] "Thus, we should keep them all in" - nope. We can "Thus" decide to keep them all out. Or, better still, we can present a balanced, fair summary.  Chzz  ►  09:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm perfectly fine with the split page as it is right now. If people are interested in the reactions, then they'll click the link to the other page. Though the summary paragraph definitely needs to be fixed, it's very one-sided. Silverseren^C 09:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The domestic reactions are becoming cruft. It is clear that politicians queued up to say how shocked they were etc, but there is no need to introduce repetitive material.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 15:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

holiday?

The BBC states, "State Secretary Kristian Amundsen said Friday was a public holiday in Norway so the government offices were not as busy as they might usually have been." However, according to the article Public holidays in Norway and some external sources I checked there was no public holiday on Friday. My suspicion is that Amundsen said something like "Many government workers, like the public, was on holiday" (because this is the month Norwegians take vacation typically) through a translator, and the BBC editor morphed that to "government workers were on public holiday".

Can anyone familiar with Norwegian holidays and vacation-taking shed some light on this and why exactly there were fewer people than normal in the city center? - BanyanTree 09:26, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

This period, the last weeks of June, is usually considered "common holiday" (fellesferie) in Norway. While it is not stated in any law that this is the case, it is a publically accepted term. Source: http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellesferie — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.202.155.130 (talk) 09:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

• It is not a public holiday, but a significant percentage of the population is on summer vacation. (The Norwegian "ferie" translates to "vacation", the Norwegian word for "holiday" is "helligdag".) Government offices are mostly inactive during the summer. However, it is not a holiday like Sundays or Christmas or Easter. For the most part shops and banks are open, and most businesses have some activity, although the activity is somewhat reduced. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The last weeks of JULY are considered "fellesferie", common holidays (Br.) or common vacation time (Amer.). Many offices which are open during this period have shortened hours, closing typically at 3 p.m. and sometimes earlier on Fridays. Thus there would be few people in public buildings at 15:26 on a Friday. Oslo people who can afford it usually spend their summer weekends away from the city; many people have cabins at the shore or in the mountains. Those people hurry home as early as possible on Fridays. --Hordaland (talk) 13:04, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Terrorism?

Why has this been called a terrorist attack? It's a nutter that's gone berserk. You wouldn't call Derrick Bird a terrorist would you? Needs to be changed in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.67.41.208 (talk) 10:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Any unprovoked attack done to cause fear and panic against innocent civilians can be labeled a terrorist attack by definition, but I agree- let's call him a religious nutjob, furthermore a Christian religious nutter, but wait, that already means all Christians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.152.1.160 (talk) 10:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

It is early days, but the attack is beginning to have echoes of the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. This is classed as a terrorist incident, even though a large organization was not involved. Derrick Bird did not plant a bomb at a government building, which suggests at least some political motive.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 10:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

At this point, it seems to me it remains to be seen whether this is terrorism or another form of insanity, as it must depend on the motives of the perpetrator(s), as yet only conjectured only. But reliable sources do call it terrorism - I guess it comes from Norwegian authorities, and we should report that. -- In fact, it seems to be a case of fundamentalist Christian terrorism as much as rigth-wing terrorism - though terrorism, whether religious or not, is by definition (my definition at least) always political as it intends to impact society.--Nø (talk) 10:40, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

• I am very surprised that "terrorist" was removed from the lead. All the media is referring to the attack as "terror". NRK, TV2, VG, Dagbladet. The last of these links (Dagbladet) say that the police have charged Breivik for crimes in accordance with the Norwegian law on terrorism. I am restoring "terrorist" to the lead, and will add the last link as a cite for that. Sjakkalle (Check!) 10:44, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Also Aftenposten reports that the police have charged Breivik for crimes in accordance with the Norwegian law on terrorism. (He can get 21 years.) --Hordaland (talk) 13:09, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

You don't need to be of arab descent or a muslim to be a terrorist. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡælˈeːrɛz/)^[1] 13:17, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

67.117.27.49 (talk) 15:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Are we seriously having a debate here about whether the bombing of three of a government's most senior ministry buildings, followed by a mass shooting spree at a youth camp that was sponsored by the dominant political party, all seemingly carried out by a man with a radical political, religious, and ethnic ideology qualifies as terrorism? Seriously? I think I would sooner classify E. coli as "maybe" bacteria than I would consider these acts "maybe" terrorism. 67.117.27.49 (talk) 15:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)Snow

We have no evidence to suggest that this is actually terrorism, rather than a killing spree, other than speculation. This may not be terrorism as we have no proof that these attacks were intended to incite terror, and perhaps was seen as a game, as his interests on facebook would express.--TheGreatDefective (talk) 16:44, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I think 67. makes a good argument. I understand the urge to obliterate the vague "terrorism" from the language altogether, but if there is such a thing, surely this is it. The perpetrators described the killing of civilians in Oklahoma City as collateral damage from a military attack, with some academic plausibility, but this was an attack on an island full of children. Wnt (talk) 18:45, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The attacks appear to be politically motivated with a goal of forcing change which certainly qualifies as terrorism to me. I'm not sure there are official sources yet for that information though, just bits and pieces of things the killer or someone using the killer's name had posted on the internet prior to the attacks in which he strongly denounced multiculturalism and marxism. 174.101.225.102 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:32, 23 July 2011 (UTC).

It seems to me that a few here are overfocused on one narrow aspect of a possible definition for terrorism, namely that the terrorist must have a clear, well-defined and fully-understood intent of promoting some specific change. This strikes me as a classic case of not being able to see the forest for the trees. Motivation is an aspect of how people have historically defined terrorism, not necessarily the defining aspect. All of the major hallmarks of terrorism are there. It was a violent attack in the public sphere by a private non-military entity, which targeted major government institutions (including the the head of state) and the lives of innocent citizens alike in locations that had an undeniable political significance. The perpetrator seems to have been vocally opposed to said government along social and ideological lines. The idea that such acts must be part of a well-delineated and logical attempt to leverage social reform in order to qualify as terrorism is ridiculous. By this definition any man who sets a bomb off in a public location for no other purpose than because he believed his god willed those people dead would not qualify as a terrorist unless he was trying to make a clear social statement. And yet clearly we routinely classify such acts as terrorism. Furthermore, even if you were a stickler for the social intent aspect, the man attacked two sites, two hours apart, that were clearly linked by a shared political affiliation, he had to know the significance and that alone ought to qualify as an ideological statement. There is just too much that we already know about the manner and circumstances of the attacks and the nature of the selected targets for this to be considered anything but terrorism under any reasonable common-sense application of the term, regardless of whatever garbled manifesto we have yet to receive from the man. 67.117.27.49 (talk) 21:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)Snow

Like user Hordaland wrote the person arrested is currently charged (so far) for terrorism in accordance to the Norwegian law paragraph §147a that covers this and can give up to 21 years prison. http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4181167.ece http://www.lovdata.no/all/hl-19020522-010.html#map018 -Laniala (talk) 19:55, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Breivik's lawyer Geir Lippestad told Norway's NRK television channel:

"He wanted a change in society and, from his perspective, he needed to force through a revolution ... He wished to attack society and the structure of society. He explained that it was cruel but that he had to go through with these acts." http://news.sky.com/skynews

The motive was political so it was terrorism - even if carried out by one person acting alone. Stanley Oliver (talk) 17:04, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's pretty undeniable that the label is accurate now, though actually, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm amazed that there was a debate on the matter to begin with. Regardless, I think it's time to discuss reverting the title back to a form that reflects the terrorist nature of the attacks. 67.117.27.49 (talk) 17:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)Snow

From what I have read, there is no reason to label this as a terrorist attack. The attacker has not released any statements regarding why he went on a killing spree, so any tie with his political views is only speculation at this time. Terrorism, to my mine, also implies the use of fear of a future attack as a tool to achieve a particular goal, but since there are no threats of future attacks from this person, there is now no "terror". Therefore the attacker is not a "terrorist" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.214.130 (talk) 23:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I am suspecting that the motive was not terror, but to get attention, and he found controversial politics to be the easiest way to get himself into the limelight. He might just as easily been upset by a bad episode of his favorite show on Television, and gone off and killed nearly 100 actors and actresses. Or perhaps upset himself because there was a picture of a dog on Norway's postage stamps, and he likes cats. 173.247.29.132 (talk) 00:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Anders' picture

I believe that Anders' picture on Facebook could be uploaded to Commons once it was uploaded to Facebook by Anders himself under Creativecommons license. Is that correct ? Krenakarore (talk) 11:07, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

This is sorta OT but do you have any evidence it was uploaded under a creative commons licence? Facebook doesn't provide any way for you to specify a licence so it would have had to been mentioned in the comments or description or something of that sort which I find strange (but not impossible). Note that even if it was, this still doesn't guarantee it's okay, we don't accept any NC or ND licences. And also since his profile was as I understand it taken down and in any case I suspect the image was restricted, proving it was licenced in that way is likely to be difficult. Nil Einne (talk) 12:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Surely this is all moot; the pictures are so widely distributed in the media now, I think we're well past the bar for fair use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.117.27.49 (talk) 15:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The Facebook image almost certainly fails WP:NFCC. Exactly the same thing happened with Jared Lee Loughner after the 2011 Tucson shooting. Eventually a free image of him turned up, but anything non-free will likely be deleted.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's comparable (see the FFD for the picture currently open). Unlike in the US, most European countries, including Norway afaik, do not allow to release such photographs to the public. Additionally, Norway has no perp walk, no photos allowed in court, arrival in court will most likely be in secret etc., so most, if not all, possibilities that exist in the US to take a picture of a suspect do not exist in Norway. Regards SoWhy 17:44, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

It is early days yet, and the claim that a free image of him will never turn up is unrealistic. For any living person, there are likely to be free images somewhere. The Facebook image fails WP:NFCC#1--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear, we're agreed that the only criteria in question is whether there might be a free-equivalent available? 22:20, 23 July 2011 (UTC)Snow — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.117.27.49 (talk)

Christian

The revision of this article I looked at a few seconds ago does not contain the words "Christian" or "Christianity" even once, despite Anders Behring Breivik's self-identification as a Christian. Look up another terrorist attack of your choice (e.g. 9/11, Madrid bombings, London bombings) and see how many times the words "Islam", "Islamic", "Islamist" and "Muslim" appear. This is shameful, Wikipedia. 82.32.186.24 (talk) 11:06, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, Islamism was the primary motive of the other attacks. It is not yet clear whether Christianity was any part in the motives of the attacks. If it does happen to be the case than the article will be updated to reflect that accordingly. --Kuzwa (talk) 11:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I'll say this much - I don't doubt for a second that we'll shortly have plenty of cause to include reference to his apparent extremist Christian ideology, but for the moment the issue is technically muddled. The police have as yet not released any information on the man's interrogation so far except to classify him as "extreme right" and apparently eager to explain the reasoning behind his acts. So presumably there will soon be plenty of material to explore this angle. Though, the reports I've read of his social media pages suggest he's more anti-Muslim than he is pro-Christian. Which is not to say that he can't be both (I'd be surprised if he wasn't), but we have more evidence for one than we do the other. Personally I'm more upset by the lack of the term "wormy little fucktard douchebag who apparently wants to try usurp Hitler's longtime claims to A) beingthe most counterproductive waste of human tissue, and B) having the most ridiculous facial hair to be seen on a pathetic effeminate face." But we have to work towards a consensus when it comes to terminology. Maybe I can get a vote? 67.117.27.49 (talk) 15:38, 23 July 2011 (UTC)Snow

I haven't hard that religion played any part of this act, although little has come out from the police authorities yet. We can wait and see before jumping to conclusions as to if Christianity, or any other religion played a role. He's a blondi, obviously a murderer, right? Dinkytown talk 19:57, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Christianity played no part in this in the same way that a pope isn't responsible for his crusade, please. A self proclaimed knight Templar showing reverence to crusades of old and committing his atrocities with a cross displayed on his chest, be proud; the christian skin heads will be at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.99.179 (talk) 19:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

---

He acted in an un-Christian way!82.27.19.246 (talk) 19:43, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

They do that a lot (and see No true Scotsman). AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:46, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Aders acted in a un-Christian way. He was a thug and a renegade if he was of Christianaty.82.27.19.246 (talk) 00:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

---

(Someone was so "stung" by my comment they removed it. What is it about the truth which some find so objectionable? Here, allow me to put it back.)

You liberals, who hijack Wikipedia over your own, personal bias so often it's lost all hope of ever meeting the spirit behind the NPOV bar set by its founders, can hardly WAIT to hang "Christian Conservative" around the neck of this psychopathic killer, can you? "Christians" are pro-life, and "Conservatives" are pro-individual, remember? Try, if you can, to recall it was Republican lawmakers who were responsible for the overwhelming majority of the anti-slavery bills introduced to the U.S. Congress before the Civil War, while Democratic lawmakers were responsible for the overwhelming majority of attempts to kill those bills, just like it is today when it comes to murdering unborn children. This nutcase is no more a "Christian Conservative" than Obama is either of them, though the truth hardly matters when you insist others live (or not) by your One World View, does it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.166.126.122 (talk) 03:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Your comment was probably removed because it is hyperbolic, accusatory, and non-productive and mostly concerned with issues that have no relevance to this article. This is not a place to discuss your personal political or religious leanings, nor for ideological rants - there are plenty of forums and other opportunities for you to do that online. The sole purpose of this page is to discuss what information should be added to the article and in what format. Now this man may not be your idea of what constitutes a 'true' Christian. That's fine, I doubt he's many people's idea of that. But if it turns out that his Christian ideology was a motivating factor for the attacks (and apparently there is mounting evidence in his own words that it was) then that information is relevant to the article and should (and will) be added. But in case you hadn't noticed, at the time you wrote your comment, the consensus was actually that there was not yet sufficient evidence so as to add said content. I suggest that maybe you should read these two articles before continuing to participate in this (or any) discussion page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility

67.117.27.49 (talk) 04:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)Snow

The video that he published is clear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAwp2FnRmsE&skipcontrinter=1 He is a Christian terrorist. He's not a guy who happens to be Christian. His Christianity, as he understood it, played a significant role in his desire to kill the "cultural marxists" who were, as he saw it, working to weaken Christendom and the "cultural purity" of Norway. His whole shtick is to get rid of the Muslims because he saw them as a threat to Norway's cultural and religious (Christian) purity. He was a member of the "Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon." His video told Christians to be like the crusaders and battle the Muslims, join a local Templar group, and rely on the virtues of the crusaders and other people who had battled Muslims in the name of Christianity. In the video he also hated on feminism, multiculturalism, Marxism, Obama, and all the usual stuff you usually find amongst right-winger Christians in the United States. 66.188.228.180 (talk) 07:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I realize that the shooter's self-proclaimed associations are true and verifiable, and I see how they are being handled in the article. I'd like to point out that Christianity is a well-defined term, defined by Christ and documented in the Bible. "Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples". I don't think it's too radical to say that Jesus and the Bible are the authoritative sources on who or what is and is not Christian. OhSqueezy (talk) 01:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Libyan reaction

I think that the Libyan reaction should be mentioned here - after all the Norwegian jets take part in bombing Libya, and this connection was one of the first speculations of media.Cimmerian praetor (talk) 11:17, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Libya was not part of the plot!82.27.19.246 (talk) 19:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Norwegian language problem

Can someone help me? When I put a norwegian web site into english with google translate, the words "bugs" and "vermin" are common in news articles. Ex. Kjetil Vevle tweeted " Someone shoot the vermin. Update the police!" Thanks, --93.137.108.94 (talk) 11:34, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

It seems that google translate translates Utøya to bugs or vermin. Weird. Tooga - BØRK! 11:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

It does this because of the word "utøy" (vermin). "Utøy" consists of the parts "u" and "tøy". While "Utøya" consists of "ut" ("out") and "øya" ("the island"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.224.75.9 (talk) 12:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Though arguably you're inevitably going to see the word 'vermin' associated with the perpetrator(s) of these acts in Norwegian sources anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.117.27.49 (talk) 15:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to Speedy close. Editors are advised that previous discussion arrived at an overwhelming consensus to keep and wait, and we should wait a few days if not a few weeks before having this discussion again. As an aside, I remind editors that WP:BLP1E is not a blanket/automatic prohibition on BLPs notable for one event, and specifically, says If the event is highly significant, and the individual's role within it is a large one, a separate article is generally appropriate. The assassins of major political leaders, such as Gavrilo Princip, fit into this category, as indicated by the large coverage of the event in reliable sources that devotes significant attention to the individual's role. --Cerejota (talk) 17:35, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

---

I suggest that the article Anders Behring Breivik be merged to 2011 Norway attacks#Alleged perpetrator for the time being. Per WP:BLP1E we do not have separate articles for people who are notable for one thing only (in this case, the attacks), unless they attract persistent coverage in reliable sources. This man will probably qualify for a separate article if and when he goes to trial, but right now it's too early to tell. As a practical matter, the information at 2011 Norway attacks#Alleged perpetrator is now essentially a duplicate of Anders Behring Breivik, and it is impractical to keep both versions up-to-date and error-free. That's why I propose to merge the content back for now and spin it out again as soon as it becomes too large, per WP:SS.  Sandstein  11:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Discussed at [4], no consensus to merge. WWGB (talk) 11:50, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, at least wait a few days before making another proposal, the prior one finished a few hours ago. Give it a few days and that will give time and more perspective to see whether Breivik will turn out to be an exception or not to the rule and also won't have us doing back to back merge proposals, which is counter-productive. Silverseren^C 11:52, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

OK, I didn't see the previous one. It ran only for eight hours or so, but there does seem to be no consensus to merge.  Sandstein  11:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

This is the third proposal for the same request today. The first is here. The second is here. I continue to stand by my opposition. The magnitude of the crime perpetrated here is right up there together with Seung-Hui Cho and Timothy McVeigh, both who have separate articles without any controversy whatsoever. The BLP1E policy is to prevent "coatrack" articles on low-profile individuals (typically: victims who get caught up in major events), but perpetrators who become the subjects of mass scrutiny because of their crimes do not fall under that category. Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, it's clear that this person is in the same category as the other two perpetrators you mentioned, but right now there is simply too little verified information to support a full article. We should develop the content in the main article until it's large enough to spin out. This avoids duplication of effort.  Sandstein  12:05, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Speedy close This has already been discussed twice within the last 12 hours. Last time the consensus was leaning on wait. --hydrox (talk) 12:11, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Speedy close as above. notable subject etc etc..--BabbaQ (talk) 16:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

This is a textbook case of WP:1E, so I would agree with "speedy close" as long as the merger is also implemented at the same time. There is no reason whatsoever under our guidelines to keep this page separate. The "magnitude of the crime" is completely irrelevant here. The history of notability is. Once this guy has through years of trials and re-trials, perhaps a bio page will be arguable. Certainly not now. Arguing from the "magnitude of the crime" is an extremely misguided attempt to make this a moral discussion, suggesting that the merge proposal goes to belittle the severity of these events. This is completely wrong. Wikipedia does not have a policy of "the more notable an event, the more pages we need to create about it". --dab (𒁳) 16:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

• Agree entirely with dab's comments. This is a textbook case of WP:BLP1E and the relevant contents of Anders Behring Breivik should be merged into this article, with Anders Behring Breivik becoming a redirect. Jenks24 (talk) 17:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suspect has has been charged

I don't know where this would fit in but from BBC News and Sky News police have charged a 32 year old male over both attacks which is believed to be Anders Behring Breivik. Just thought this was useful information and if someone could add it to the article.Jonny109 (talk) 12:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, English-language source confirming the charges is really useful. --hydrox (talk) 12:54, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

POV in section "Alleged perpetrator"

Please User:ShipFan insists on marking this section as POV. Please discuss here, what the problem with this section. --hydrox (talk) 12:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

• DO NOT remove the tag until the issues are resolved. ShipFan (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC).

This section contains second hand hearsay and allegations about somebody who is only a suspect (not convicted of a crime). This violated WP:BLP. A living person accused of a crime is not guilty unless and until this is decided by a court of law. ShipFan (talk) 12:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Well for starters you're using the wrong tag. But anyway can you please give some specific examples of what you feel is at issue? BTW, do note that even if he was convicted of a crime, BLP still applies and second hand hearsay and allegations are still a problem Nil Einne (talk) 12:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No? Really? Innocent until proven guilty? You must have watched too much television.. seriously though, I copyedited the section in the neutralest, most innocent-assuming way possible. Please see if you are happy with this. We can not go much further, if we want to be still able to express information reported by multiple WP:RSs in the section. --hydrox (talk) 12:38, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean by "hearsay", if you mean that the information is sourced to newspaper articles written by journalists who didn't witness the attacks, then it is what Wikipedia calls "secondary sourcing", which is the preferred type of sourcing for articles. "Only a suspect" is "not guilty unless and until convicted" does not seem to apply here considering that the person was caught more or less red-handed, with weapons and his police uniform disguise, at the scene of the crime. The "only a suspect" concerns are treated seriously to protect potentially innocent people (e.g. names are generally not released by the media until there is a conviction), but if there are no serious or reasonable doubts, that standard is not adhered to slavishly. Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:40, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to change the heading from "alleged perpetrator" to "suspected perpetrator". The Oslo police have formally charged him as a suspect[5], and as such "supspected" is more correct than "alleged" in my opinion. Bjelleklang - talk 15:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

This has been the section heading for the last three hours, give or take. --hydrox (talk) 15:27, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

My bad, was probably looking at some old cached version. Bjelleklang - talk 15:38, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

John Stewart Mill quote.

The old version said that he was an admirer of Mill, but we know that he only quoted Mill on his twitter account. The quote is "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests". I've changed it to reflect this. Source: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080610--Havermayer (talk) 12:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

He also listed Mill's On Liberty in his favorite books on Facebook. Lolilith (talk) 19:21, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Somebody please fix

From the article: "Reports initially suggested that car bombs[11] exploded at the same time at Youngstorget (Young's Square) in Oslo, outside the office of Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg and other government office buildings such as the Oil Ministry[11] and Ministry of Finance,[11] with many windows blown out. This later proved to be wrong.[12]"

What proved to be wrong? That windows were blown out? Seriously, that sentence needs clarification. --Hordaland (talk) 13:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The statements are simply wrong, but involved editors starts edit wars to keep the false information in the article. There were no bombs at Youngstorget, and the office of Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg and other government office buildings such as the Oil Ministry[11] and Ministry of Finance are simply not at Youngstorget at all. The bomb was located between R4 and H-blokka, that is in Grubbegata. 87.248.5.62 (talk) 14:44, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

This is actually quite funny: On 23 July 2011 at 15:25 (CEST) a powerful expolosion went off on Youngstorget (Young's Square) in Regjeringskvartalet, downtown Oslo, near the offices of the Prime Minister of Norway and several other governmental buildings, such as the Ministry of Petroleum and Energy and Ministry of Finance. Youngstorget isnt part of Regjeringskvartalet, yet both are downtown Oslo. There was no bomb at Youngstorget, its an erroneous report in Swedish Expressen. The bomb was located in in Grubbegata. Youngstorget is located to the right and outside the map in the article. Jeblad (talk) 16:29, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

There were early reports claiming Youngstorget and (ISTR) Akersgata as locations, but I think this was due to the size of the explosion. It seems clear that there was a single, big bomb, probably in a parked car outside the main entrance of the part of the main government building. If you look at the pictures, you will see the extension containging the cafeteria being severely damaged all over, but on the side towards the parking, the concrete wall is broken down, and the rebar is stripped of concrete. The damage on R4 across the road, and the debris blown through the first storey of the highrise seems consistent with this placement. I think the broken car to the right was parked next to the bomb, the car containing the bomb would probably been torn completely apart. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ketil (talk • contribs) 21:34, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Source: Breivik in FrP

Possibly of interest as a source: http://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/article3196591.ece (in Norwegian). --Hordaland (talk) 14:15, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

It's been mentioned in his dedicated article. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)^[1] 15:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Missing persons

I hear some people are still missing. Just wondering if Google Person Finder been considered. Ottawahitech (talk) 15:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Police says that 4-5 people are still missing at Utøya (possibly more) and also indicated that more people are missing in relation to the bombing. They expect the death-toll to rise. The article should say Death(s): 7+ (Oslo), 85+ (Utøya). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.179.209.64 (talk) 18:53, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Disassembled?

Troll, blocked, ignore

The bombing disassembled seven human beings ... ... opened fire at the campers, disassembling at least 85 attendees Seriously? disassembled? Who the heck wrote this article. 24.201.59.148 (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2011 (UTC) Non-native english speaker, likely. WP:SOFIXIT. 64.180.40.100 (talk) 16:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC) It was vandalism. It has been fixed and the vandal is now blocked. Prolog (talk) 17:01, 23 July 2011 (UTC) Thank you. I don't understand that kind of behavior. It's a tragedy, I can't see what's to laugh about. Poor English?82.27.19.246 (talk) 17:25, 23 July 2011 (UTC) Well, it looks like a strange choice as a synonym to "killed" or "dead". Specially at the beginning, where it announces that "seven human beings" have been "disassembled" by the explosion. It looks like they've been torn apart, which may be true, but still sounds crude and insensitively "robotic". And later, when we read about the shootings, it gets worst, using that weird term on and on. Like Terminator or Robocop writing the news: "Critical explosion in structure. Disfunctional human executing forbiden proccess. Human beings disassembled. Suspect terminated. All systems operative." Please, let someone with better writing skills than me, change it, and use normal words. EDIT: I've seen it was just fixed. Thanks. It's a troll who was last seen doing the same thing on Japanese earthquake articles. Revert, block, ignore. Acroterion (talk) 17:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC) An illiterate user?82.27.19.246 (talk) 17:25, 23 July 2011 (UTC) Account disassembled for vandalism!82.27.19.246 (talk) 19:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Is publishing pictures of mass murderers a good idea?

Experts on the subject recommend not publishing pictures of mass murderers to avoid encouraging copycat killings. I'm not entirely comfortable with Wikipedia breaking that guideline. As the picture is also nominated for deletion can we remove it soon? The mayor of Yurp (talk) 17:54, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Many think that that's bullshit. Verify your sources. --TheGreatDefective (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Saw an expert talking about it on Charlie Brooker's Newswipe. Also here and there are many others pleading to stop giving publicity to mass murderers. The mayor of Yurp (talk) 18:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Does that mean we delete Adolf Hitler? Wnt (talk) 18:40, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:NOTCENSORED. If someone said this elsewhere, it carries little weight on Wikipedia.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with WP:NOTCENSORED. We need to know what the guy looks like. The killer at Espo's Cello shoping mall has his image on his bio.82.27.19.246 (talk) 19:44, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

He's on the front page of every newspaper, so I think it's too late anyway. Ketil (talk) 21:35, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Yaa, let's leave Osama bin Laden's face up, but take this white conservatives face down. That way the only mass murderer faces we'll see will be brown. Great idea! I vote to do this! Adelson Velsky Landis (talk) 22:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I note with dismay the reductio ad Hitlerum reactions to my suggestion at denying this "man" the notoriety he craved. The mayor of Yurp (talk) 22:16, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Water temperature?

For those who haven't been to Norway, it would be nice if we could find a statement about the water temperature around Utoeya Island. This source touches on it [6] but it isn't very clear to me: some survivors jumped into the water, but I don't know how long they could stay there. There were boats with rescuers... did this turn into a search of the water for survivors (or corpses), almost like with a capsized ship? Wnt (talk) 18:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I haven't heard anything about a major search for survivors, but it has been supposed some might have drowned. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:25, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The water temperature is 19°C at this camping site, which is located at a different place at the same lake - http://www.onsakervika.com/akkurat-naa/badetemperatur.html So around the Utøya island it was probably 17°C-19°C depending on the currents, which is not too bad a water temperature for Norway during the summer. Probably about the same air temperature, but occasionally rainy. Maybe a couple of degrees lower. http://www.yr.no/sted/Norge/Buskerud/Hole/Ut%C3%B8ya/ The shortest distance from the island to the mainland if you look at a map is about 600 meters. More if you don't pick the shortest route which a lot of those fleeing not necessarily did in trying to escape. Many might already have been exhausted from the panic and running on the island itself. Many might not have been excellent swimmers, and perhaps wearing cumbersome clothes if it was raining at the moment. So the people that are still missing (and might bring the death toll higher) are being searched for in the water and shorelines. Only time will tell if those still missing people actually were shot in the water or drowned from exhaustion and not being picked up in time by a boat or against all odds are alive somewhere. -Laniala (talk) 19:28, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I heard a survivor interviewed on BBC World who said they had to swim back to shore as they became bogged down, having been unable to remove their shoes or clothes because the perpetrator was not far behind. OR but [7] gives 2-7 hours for exhaustion or unconciousness and 2-40 hours for survival for a water temperature of 16-21°C while [8] gives 10 hours survival for 18°C. So while possibly a contributing factor it seems general exhaustion etc may have been bigger problems. Nil Einne (talk) 22:50, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Admirer of Winston Churchill and Max Manus

I removed the sentence saying that he was an admirer of them. The reason being that he only listed them as interests on fb, which doesn't necessarily mean he admired them. We just don't know. I'm waiting for more sources on this. --Havermayer (talk) 18:49, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

This has been widely reported and is reliably sourced. We cannot rely on your interpretation of whether it's correct, only on what reliable sources report. JonFlaune (talk) 19:29, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Why insult Winston and Max! Anders’ words on his Facebook page are not WP:RS. We need a stronger sorce.82.27.19.246 (talk) 19:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Nonsense. We are not using Facebook as a source at all. We are using reliable sources (currently El Mundo (Spain) and the Herald Sun, but hundreds of others pointing this out can be found). It doesn't matter if you find the material offensive, because Wikipedia is not censored. JonFlaune (talk) 19:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Those sources are using his fb interests listing to conclude that he admired them. Its somewhat ambiguous however. I'm going to find another source that says that he simply listed them as interests, which is more accurate. --Havermayer (talk) 19:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

O.K.82.27.19.246 (talk) 01:08, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Impact on transportation

The 'Impact on transportation' section is pretty trivial, in the overall scheme of things; shall we remove it? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 19:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Anders' Book 2083

Allegedly this is his book http://www.2shared.com/file/M-s-2fBD/2083-AEuropeanDeclarationofInd.html From the last pages in the book it seems it is indeed his book. The last pages also detail his plans.

I would trust this download: http://www.kevinislaughter.com/2011/anders-behring-breivik-2083-a-european-declaration-of-independence-manifesto/

After quickly reading through it, it seems legitimate. There are several details which has only recently been publicly known (for example that there has been a marihuana farm several years ago at the farm he bought. It also seems unlikely that someone would be able to write that document in such a short time for it to be fake. However, I do believe that we should not yet trust it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.211.58.123 (talk) 20:09, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Several Norwegian newspapers now report that he has written and published the book. Apparently it has also been sent to several Finnish right-wing politicians. See http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080671 and http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/07/23/nyheter/utoya/innenriks/drap/17433269/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.211.58.123 (talk) 20:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Timeline

AP has just put out a timeline [9] which made me think...a timeline of some kind would really help the article. I suppose it could be a graphic, or a table - or prose; I don't know.

Any ideas, or indeed anyone just adding something, welcome.  Chzz  ►  19:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

A table of events?82.27.19.246 (talk) 19:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Use {{Timeline-event}}. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 19:47, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I found this huge BBC timeline.[10]82.27.19.246 (talk) 20:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Here is the official timeline from the police of the events at Utøya - https://www.politi.no/Nyhet_10256.xhtml — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laniala (talk • contribs) 12:10, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Anyone can edit?

Since WP has long held that IP editors contribute some of the best edits and that forcing users to register will drive them away, I would like to know the radionale behind sprotecting this article? You can't really have this both ways. Either IP editors are a wonderous and productive group on the whole, or else they are not always.

On the other hand, if WP has identified certain areas in which IP editors are best excluded, then those areas (featured articles and rapidly changing wide-interest current events, for example), should be semi-protected immediately, as a matter of course, without waiting for vandalism and unhelpful bad editing to (inevitably) happen and clog the system. But such suggestions (as for sports playoff articles and natural disasters) have failed at WP:PERENNIAL, again and again.

It seems to me that the WP community is absolutely unable to learn from past experience in this matter, or to generalize any observation to change its policies. Which is to say, there's not much wisdom in this policy, as it stands. Here is yet one more illustration of that. I'm posting this to remind you-all who opposed any changes to sprotection policy, that this is your mess. SBHarris 20:03, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Honestly I've never heard that IPs do the best edits. Maybe they do. Other IPs provide the worst edits - that I know for very very sure. I think it depends on whether the article is political hotstuff (in which case IPs are proner to POV edits), and whether the topic is academical (in which some IP professors may partake). Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 20:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Read and learn. [11] SBHarris 20:28, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

That says nothing about the "best edits", it just says that IPs make productive edits. There is no judgement of quality whatsoever beyond good/bad. Go WP:SOAPBOX elsewhere. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:34, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the death count at Utöya

The 85 death count are possibly including people who were not hit, but still drowned. No sourze, but it is implied. 20:10, 23 July 2011 (UTC)77.53.61.62 (talk)

They wouldn't have drowned if the attack did not happen, as such, the deaths were a direct consequence of the attack. --TheGreatDefective (talk) 20:18, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes. It still counts as murder. If I fire a gun at you, and you fall off a cliff trying to escape, I'm still guilty of murder. --Havermayer (talk) 20:43, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Arrest without resistance

He made no resistance when arrested according to sverigesradio.se. I'll see if I can find similar sources. Sveriges Radio is generally reliable and don't propagate rumors as facts. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 20:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=4615008 The explosives were placed in a car (as earlier suspected). He have admitted firing the weapons. The explosive fertilizers have been found at his private farm. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 20:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Kosovo War

According to [12], he views the European Union as a project to create "Eurabia" and claims the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia was authorized by "criminal western European and American leaders". His anti-EU and anti-NATO views should be included in the article. JonFlaune (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, a person called Andrew Berwick does. His identity with Anders Behring Breivik is perhaps a little speculative. The similarities looks compelling, however. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!)

Several sources say he wrote it. Apparently he's discussing it with police. http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/07/23/nyheter/utoya/innenriks/drap/17433269/ --Havermayer (talk) 21:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The NRK (TV) just referred to him having written it. The source cited above (Bergens Tidende) also states that he wrote it. JonFlaune (talk) 21:32, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

"Knights Templar 2083"

I just saw an article about a YouTube video posted July 22 by "Andrew Berwick", an anglicized version of Anders Breivik. It isn't really known who posted the video, but it shows this person holding a gun (apparently a copy of one from his Facebook page though). It also contains excerpts from a number of Wikipedia articles, e.g. Jacques de Molay. (No Creative Commons license attribution, I might add...)

My assumption is that J. Random Racist saw the suspect named in the news, and immediately tagged his pictures to the end of a long rant he'd already assembled; therefore the video in fact gives no information at all regarding the motivation of these attacks, and is essentially spam, and not relevant to this article. But is there a way to confirm or deny this? Wnt (talk) 21:33, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

It seems fairly consistent with other stuff he has published, e.g. web comments. He is concerned about European and Norwegian culture being destroyed by multiculturalism and immigration - especially from moslem countries. He sees the labor party as the primary driving force behind the multiculturalism. Although you can't be sure, it seems it might be bona fide to me. Ketil (talk) 23:53, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Crap! The bastards at YouTube have already deleted the video! Before I had the chance to cast the counterspell! ("Non Angli, sed Angeli") Fortunately I use Video DownloadHelper and at least I have an archival backup copy for research purposes... Wnt (talk) 21:40, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

There's a link to that youtube video in Breivik's "manifesto". There's also an alternative link: http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21123164bZCBQeZ8 .--Victor Chmara (talk) 21:50, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Could you provide a link to this manifesto, or whatever source said the manifesto links to this video? That way we can mention it in the article as verifiably sourced. Wnt (talk) 22:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

This manifesto is downloadable as a pdf here. 2.26.230.126 (talk) 23:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)(i.e.)

Breitvik Confesses

According to NRK (norwegian state TV) Anders Behring Breivik has now konfessed to the bombings and the shootings. Not only that but it turns out that he has prepared a 1500 page ideological "interview with himself" about his acts and motivations... http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7724809 http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrk.no%2Fnyheter%2Fnorge%2F1.7724809 (conditions="charges) http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7724781 http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=no&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrk.no%2Fnyheter%2Fnorge%2F1.7724781 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.176.90.204 (talk) 21:34, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

AN/I User:ErrantX and Anders Behring Breivik

Admin, User:ErrantX has unilaterally, blanked, redirected here, and full protected the article Anders Behring Breivik. THis over the discussions in the two AfDs and the several merger discussions. An uninvolved admin opened this case. Please comment. That is not a place to discuss this article, but if the protection was according to rules. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Admin_ErrantX_and_Anders_Behring_Breivik--Cerejota (talk) 21:49, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

For interested parties; the redirection and move protection of Anders Behring Breivik has been disputed here. Silverseren^C 21:50, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Looks like you beat me to it. Just barely though. Silverseren^C 21:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Description apparently In his own words

Very bulky, but worth reading data list by User:188.103.193.14

Personal facts: Name: Andrew Berwick/Anders Behring Breivik Nationality: Norwegian Born: February 1979 Height: 183 cm Weight: 80 kg Ethnicity: Nordic/Norwegian Address: Oslo ,Norway Personality: Optimistic, pragmatic, ambitious, creative, hard working Political view: Cultural conservative, revolutionary conservative, Vienna school of thought, economically liberal Religion: Christian, Protestant but I support a reformation of Protestantism leading to it being absorbed by Catholisism. The typical “Protestant Labour Church” has to be deconstructed as its creation was an attempt to abolish the Church Religious: I went from moderately to agnostic to moderately religious Education: Non-formal equivalent to 7 years + at university level Professions: Investor, Director, Manager - founder of several companies, Small business management (including organisational development), political analyst, author, stock analyst/trader. Im unsure whether resistance fighter (Justiciar Knight Commander) and martyr counts as a profession:) Nicotine: Yes Alcohol: Occasionally Drugs: No Tattoos: No Sports: Snowboarding, fitness (body building/spinning), running Watch sport: Only women’s sand volley ball:P Perhaps I would if Norway didn’t suck so hard in footbal Name of your primary weapon: Mjöllnir Name of your side arm: Gungnir Hobbies: Political analysis, studying new topics, Free Mason, Heraldry, Genealogy, gaming (MMO or Modern Warfare 2), travelling – learning about new cultures, music, friends. I have had the privilege of experiencing the following countries: Sweden, Denmark, UK, Germany, Poland, Belarus, France, Austria, Hungary, Austria, Croatia, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Spain, Cyprus, Malta, US, Turkey, Mexico, China, Nigeria, Cote d'Ivoire, Liberia. Key points – curriculum vitae Key qualifications: Organisational/business development – Experience with the establishment, development and management of smaller businesses related to the fields; organisational/business development, small business management, marketing and sales Financial analysis – stock/currency analysis relating to the fields/indicators; candlesticks, RSI, stochastic, MACD, Bollinger bands, DMI, momentum 2005-2007: Managing director of E-Commerce Group AS (part investment company – 50%, part sales/outsourcing company – 50%). I converted ABB ENK to a corporation (AS). Total of 7 employees: 3 in Norway, 1 in Russia, 1 in Indonesia, 1 in Romania, 1 in the US. Distribution of outsourcing services to foreign companies, sold software/programming solutions. Worked part time with day trading (stocks/options/currency/commodities). This was a front (milking cow) with the purpose of financing resistance/liberation related military operations. The company was successful although most of the funds were channelled through a Caribbean subsidiary (with base in Antigua, a location where European countries do not have access): Brentwood Solutions Limited with bank accounts in other Caribbean nations and Eastern Europe. E-Commerce Group was terminated in 2007 while most of the funds were channelled in an “unorthodox manner” to Norway available to the coming intellectual and subsequent operations phase. 2002-2004: Director of Anders Behring Breivik ENK) (part time from May 02 (shortly after my inclusion in PCCTS) – des. 02, full time from March 03. Same emphasis as E-Commerce Group. This was a front (milking cow) I established and focused on shortly after my inclusion in PCCTS, Knights Templar with the purpose of financing resistance/liberation related military operations. 2002-2003: Supervisor/internal advisor for Bankia Bank ASA (Apr. 02 – March 03) 2001-2002: Customer service representative for Bankia Bank ASA (Nov. 01 – Apr. 02) 2000-2001: Managing director of Media Group AS. Development and sales of outdoor media solutions (primarily billboards). My company was partially acquired/bought by Mediamax Norway AS after I (and my employee, Kristoffer Andresen) had built a billboard portfolio from scratch in the Oslo area which was then sold to Mediamax Norge AS (which was later bought by JC Decaux Norway) and Clear Channel (July 00 – July 01) 1999-2000: Team leader for the customer service rep. dept. for Enitel Telephony/mobile/internet/support division (March 99 – July 00) 1998-1999: Director for Behring & Kerner Marketing DA. Implenetation and sales of telephonic services (part time from Aug. 98-Feb. 99) 1997-1999: Corporate customer care rep. for customer care/internet support for Telia Norway AS (Nov 97-Feb 99) 1996-1997: Part time as a sales rep. for ACTA Economical Counselling (Feb 96-97) Education: Non-formal studies/degrees: Bachelor of Business Administration (major: small business management) part time studies using the curriculum/online study courses from AIU, American InterContinental University (98-02), Bachelor of Political Science (major: political science and history) part time studies (00-05), Master of Political Science, full/part time studies (05-10). See other chapter for specification. Other professional activities: 2005: Was coached by my friend, former mentor and independent stock analyst; Xun Dai over a 6 month period on the areas: technical stock analysis: candlesticks, RSI, stochastic, MACD, Bollinger bands, DMI, momentum 2000-2001: Was coached by mo former mentor – and managing director of Hypertec AS; Richard Steenfeldt-Berg over a 12 month period on the areas; management, administration, corporate/business/organisation development (May 00-May 01) 1995-1998: Oslo Handelsgymnasium/Hartvig Nissen High School Board positions, professional activities, responsibilities 2003: Candidate for the Oslo City Council election on behalf of the Oslo Progress Party. This was during the “crossroad” when I was in the process of deciding whether I would fully abandon conventional politics (and a career within conventional politics) as a solution/source to acquire funds for the future operation or if I would rather leave conventional politics altogether and rather focus on entrepreneurship/business as the source for financing my future and clandestine participation in the pan-European Conservative Revolutionary Movement/pan-European Resistance Movement. As you already know I became one of the founding members of the PCCTS, Knights Templar in 2002 and among the very first Justiciar Knight Commanders. However, regardless of this choice, I was not completely convinced I was done with conventional politics. I actually decided to do a last push (after my pledge to the PCCTS) as I was already nominated on behalf of the Oslo Progress Party for the City Council election in 2003/2004. I came relatively close to being elected but was not among the final contestants due to the fact that the Progress Party Youth (lead by my rival Jøran Kallmyr) refused, for strategical reasons, to support my candidature. At the time I was more popular than Jøran but needed the support of the youth organisation (an organisation I had been a part of for a few years). I don’t blame him for backstabbing me like that though. After all, he had invested so much more of his time to the organisation than I had. He deserved it while I didn’t and I would probably have done the same thing if I was him. Also, during the “crossroad phase” I had lost all faith in the Progress Party as a solution to Norway’s rapid disintegration due to multiculturalism and Islamisation. A moderate cultural conservative political party like the Progress Party is un-capable of solving any of our primary problems as they are systematically ridiculed and isolated by all other political parties and a united media sector. This, even despite of the fact that they have taken measures and gotten rid of all true nationalists ending up with only opportunistic career cynisists unwilling to take any political risks. The Progress Party is now a part of the problem as they continuously give the Norwegian people false hope and thus contributes to pacify them. They should rather be honest and admit that all hopes for the democratical change of the society is futile and rather encourage all patriotic Norwegians to resist the multiculturalist regime through armed resistance. Their unwillingness to do this makes them a central part of the problem and in fact an obstacle to the liberation of and the reconquista of Norway. I anticipate that the Norwegian media will persecute and undermine the Progress Party for my earlier involvement in the organisation. This is not a negative thing as an increasing amount of Norwegians will then have their “illusions of democratic change” crushed (if the Progress Party is annihilated by the multiculturalist media) and rather resorts to armed resistance. From a tactical and pragmatical viewpoint; the PC Medias defeat of the Progress Party will benefit the armed National Resistance Movement in Norway. The more moderate alternatives are persecuted the more likely it is that the average nationalists illusions of peaceful reform will be crushed, which will lead to him seeking “other means”. Because at this point, armed resistance and the violent overthrow of our regime is the only thing that can save us. 2002: Founding member (national representative) of the PCCTS, Knights Templar, in London (April). 2002: Member of the board of directors of the control authority for Majorstuen Eldresenter (Majorstuen Retirement home), political position for the Norwegian Progress Party. 2002: Member of the board of directors for Uranienborg Elementary and Secondary School, political position for the Norwegian Progress Party. 2001: Development of the financial prospectus for Hypertec AS in cooperation with NB Partner AS and PriceWaterhouseCoopers DA (Jan 01-May 01) 2000-2003: Board member in Progress Party Frogner and Vice Chairman in the Progress Party Youth – Oslo West.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.103.193.14 (talk • contribs) 21:52, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I read it and it is' informative, if verbose.!86.24.23.148 (talk) 10:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

"Acting national police chief Sveinung Sponheim"

The articles describes Sveinung Sponheim as "acting national police chief". The cited source does not describe him as such. Sponheim is visepolitimester (Deputy Chief of Police) in Oslo Police District. The national police chief is the Police Director. The acting national police chief would presumably be one of the deputy police directors, not a Deputy Chief of Police in Oslo Police District. JonFlaune (talk) 22:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Admitted perpetrator

Breivik has admitted to being the perpetrator of both attacks.[13] JonFlaune (talk) 22:11, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

English source: [14] JonFlaune (talk) 22:13, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Suspected perpetrator

Since he has confessed, do we still need the suspected on there? Or do we have to wait until he is actually convicted? I'm not sure how Norwegian law works in this regards. Silverseren^C 22:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

We could describe him as "admitted perpetrator"? Norwegian law isn't really relevant in this regard (whether we describe him as an admitted perpetrator). JonFlaune (talk) 22:52, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

My point on Norwegian law is because in some places, when someone confesses, there is no case or anything, they just immediately go to jail, for sentencing to be determined at a later point. But, anyways, admitted perpetrator sounds good. Silverseren^C 22:59, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

There will be a trial (probably sometime next year) where he will be found guilty or innocent, so he's not convicted yet. But there's no problem with describing him as the admitted perpetrator from a legal point of view. He first was the suspected perpetrator, then became the admitted perpetrator, and is likely to become at some point the convicted perpetrator. JonFlaune (talk) 23:04, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Are you people nuts?! By making him famous and a star, you GIVE A GROUND FOR FURTHER WANNA-BE-FAMOUS freaks! That's why, every time, police all over the world refrains from naming terrorists. midzuno (talk) 0:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

We're not making him famous. We're just analyzing him into atoms, so that nobody follows his path. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 14:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Source #62

62. "Dynamittgubben" (in Norwegian). Aftenposten, A-magasinet. 20 February 2009. How can this source be about the shooter if it's dated 2009? I can't find it online either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StoriesTime (talk • contribs) 22:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Strange?82.27.19.246 (talk) 01:11, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

That is quoting Aftenposten about the website document.no, not about current happenings. --Hordaland (talk) 02:33, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Pro gay?

I'm reading his manifesto now. He bitches a lot about homosexuality and how its abhorrent. --Havermayer (talk) 22:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't surprise that me that his political beliefs are very inconsistent. He also said he was "pro-gay". JonFlaune (talk) 22:49, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

But, regardless, we have to wait for reliable sources to cover and interpret his manifesto before we can include anything. Silverseren^C 22:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

And I don't think his beliefs are inconsistent. I think the manifesto is him clearly stating his beliefs. I only have a translation of the source that says he's "pro gay", and I'm not sure where it says it. I actually have a really hard time reading it. http://ekstrabladet.dk/minsag/article1590881.ece --Havermayer (talk) 23:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

He refers to "our anti-racist/pro-gay[s]/pro-Israel stance". The comment is originally from one the comments he posted on the anti-Muslim website document.no[15]. JonFlaune (talk) 23:27, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

He used being a closet-homosexual as one of his coverups when friends and family got suspicious of why he kept large parts of his personal life secret. (source: http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7724818) It is thus possible that he said the pro-gay thing on document.no to have a back-up for this claim. This is speculation however, but might explain it. --Painocus (talk) 02:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

his picture in the dark LaCoste sweater has been used in at least one all-male chat room in the past (probably months ago), but that doesn't mean it was him using it. (personal knowledge) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.153.140.243 (talk) 14:09, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

He's definitely not pro-gay according to the manifesto. Maybe someone should put something about that in, since it's contradictory? Maybe he just wanted to make his ideas more palatable to more people and that's a social aspect he can compromise on, I dunno. Lolilith (talk) 19:07, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

"it is Western Europe's deadliest terrorist attack since the March 2004 Madrid train bombings"

Is norway in western europe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.66.194.16 (talk) 23:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Technically, it's in Northern Europe, but because Europe is generally classified into West and East, yes, it is in Western Europe. See the link I just gave. Silverseren^C 23:16, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

It's both in Western Europe and in Northern Europe. Or, if you want, in Northwestern Europe, or the northern part of Western Europe. JonFlaune (talk) 23:28, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Western and Eastern Europe are as much cultural and political terms as they are geographical. Norway easily fits into Western Europe on this basis, it's never really been in dispute. Totnesmartin (talk) 10:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Scandinavia's hisory actuly.10:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.24.23.148 (talk)

Breivik's connection to the ebook '2083: A European Declaration of Independence'

This book was written by "Andrew Berwick" but includes the line "Being a Norwegian myself..." on page 1369. As the video summary of this book includes pictures of Breivik, we can assume that this 1500-page book is his manifesto.

2083: A European Declaration of Independence

2.26.230.126 (talk) 23:21, 23 July 2011 (UTC)(i.e.)

Yes, this has been confirmed by many reliable sources including the NRK. JonFlaune (talk) 23:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

After reading through that book right now, I can definitely say we have an extreme case of christian fundamentalism here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.143.114.225 (talk) 23:39, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

That is seriously creepy to read, the last 50 pages describe how he did everything in detail. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)^[1] 03:35, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

And the diary portion ends with "I believe this will be my last entry. It is now Fri July 22nd, 12.51." on page 1472. --Hordaland (talk) 04:29, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Biochemical Rounds

While flicking through his Book/diary/manifesto, I noticed he purchased liquid nicotine. Searching the document further, I saw that he put lethal drugs into hollow point bullets, clearly intending to poison those who did not die on impact of rounds. The chemicals he used were Ricin, which apparently causes diarrhoea, and liquid Nicotine, which causes respiratory failure. This is particularly worrying, as it means that there could potentially be more deaths amongst those who were shot. Should the biochemical element of this be mentioned in the article? --TheGreatDefective (talk) 23:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

We can only mention it once reliable sources start discussing the manifesto and discuss the chemicals. If we put such things in ourselves directly from the manifesto, it would count as original research, as we would be the ones interpreting it and not qualified professionals. Silverseren^C 23:40, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm very curious whether he went through with it, or if it would even work. --Havermayer (talk) 00:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I have followed the news closely, and none of this has been mentioned a single time. It has been said that most of his "book" has been copy-pasted from other things, so we shouldn't draw any conclusions ourselves. Kiire (talk) 16:36, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Update: He has been using hollow-point bullets (I have added this to the article with a source), but it doesn't say anything about any drugs in them. Kiire (talk) 20:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Anders Behring Breivik unprotected

Anders Behring Breivik unprotected and restored. If you disagree with this, please raise it at deletion review, as it has been subjected to multiple AfDs and survived, hence any change in status should be due to process happening. --Cerejota (talk) 23:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Revert request

A user with a username indicating his agenda, deleted the second part of a direct quote from a source (thus falsifying the quote)[16]. Please revert. JonFlaune (talk) 01:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Done. Silverseren^C 01:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Weapons

Does anyone know what he was armed with? New sources constantly say "automatic weapons" but I've also heard everything he had was legally owned.69.70.241.62 (talk) 03:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

"The gunman in his 30s was described to be carrying a pistol and a rifle with telescopic sight." [17] DUMBELLS (talk) 05:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I have done some research, but so far I can't find any reliable source for what type of weapon he used. Some eyewitnesses reported they saw an M16 (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/bombing-shooting-at-political-rally-rocks-norway-capital-of-oslo/story-e6frg6so-1226100619876) while other reports simply mention "eine Glock-Pistole und ein automatisches Gewehr" (a Glock pistol and an automatic rifle) (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,776076,00.html). In one of the pictures in the appendix of the book that he allegedly wrote, he can be seen holding a rifle: http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/a3/d6/8335ba2c4d0684d736bd0a9dc4e8.jpeg I'm not a gun expert and the angle is rather unfortunate to identify the weapon, but I'm pretty sure that's not an M16. At least to me it looks more like a Ruger mini 14 (http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/firearms-images-products-437l.jpg for example) due to the four distinctive rows of holes at the front end of the barrel shroud as well as the front sight. There very well may be other weapons with these characteristics, but the mini 14 is simply the only one I can think of right now. The mini 14 would also (as far as I know) be in accordance with the gun laws in Norway, which according to the article here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Norway#Types_of_civilian_owned_guns) ban all full auto weapons ("There is a total ban on automatic weapons for civilians [...]"), since its semi auto only. An M16 would be illegal to own by a civilian according to that law, since it's a fully automatic weapon (or rather a select fire with the option of either semi auto or full auto or depending on the version semi auto and burst).

Maybe someone with a more in depth knowledge can take a look at the picture and add some additional info about what weapon it might be.

There is also no evidence as of now, that links the weapon in that image to the actual shooting, but if it's actually the same guy in the picture and it's his gun, its save to at least consider the possibility that it's the gun that was used. 93.131.14.172 (talk) 06:02, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Media stated early on that he used a Glock, the guard who let him in mentioned a rifle with telescopic sight as well, but the police said machine pistol. There has also been reports of a shotgun. It's hard to get a consistent view of this, my guess would be a Glock pistol and an MP-5 machine pistol, which are used by Norwegian police and military. There are also plenty of hunting rifles, but it would be less useful weapon and more suspicious when impersonating a police officer. An M16 would be a lot harder to obtain. Ketil (talk) 07:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

If the manifesto can be believed, he owned at least a Glock 34 handgun, and possibly also a Glock 17, as well as a Ruger Mini-14; both weapons legally acquired and registered with the appropriate authorities (he applied for and received permits for both in 2010). He also makes reference to owning a pump-action shotgun (make unspecified) and a .308 Winchester bolt-action rifle, both of these also legally owned. Some early eyewitness reports mentioned pistol, rifle, and shotgun; but current reporting do not repeat this claim. Police are only saying that he was apprehended with one “one-handed” weapon and one “two-handed” weapon (they're deliberately not giving further details). Sadly it seems stricter gun-control laws might have stopped him since he describes attempts to acquire firearms illegally (he really wanted a Ruger Mini-Thirty), but finding it difficult and eventually chickening out (due to all the unsavoury people he'd have to associate with). Anyways, there are, that I have found, no reliable sources for any of this yet, so for now this is just idle speculation (i.e. WP:NOR) and can not be added to the article. --Xover (talk) 09:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The Ruger Mini-14 article states "Anders Behring Breivik owned and possibly used a Mini-14 in the shootout on Utøya." and links to this image (http://static01.vg.no/drfront/images/2011-07/23/88-98b88918-9b1830ae.jpeg) as a source. Maybe this should also be included in the article here? As mentioned above I agree with the assessment, that he gun in the image is a Ruger mini 14, but without a credible source identifying it as such, I feel somewhat reluctant to edit the article. I'm also by no means a regular editor and since this is an active article I don't feel confident enough to edit this. I've been using Wikipedia and read talk pages long enough to know when to stay clear XD 93.131.14.172 (talk) 16:44, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I made a few corrections relating to the weapons used in the attack. 1) There is no such thing as a Glock 16, so I removed the '16.' 2) The Ruger Mini 14 does not use '30 magazine clips,' so I changed it to 30-round magazines. 3) Changed 'silencer' to suppressor, which is the correct name for the device used to muffle the sound of shooting.Systmtc (talk) 19:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Possible links to the EDL and other European far-right groups

This guardian article may be useful, as it treats Breivik's discussions with far-right and anti-Islamic groups such as the English Defence League. Sindinero (talk) 05:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

2 Islamist terrorist groups that took credit

This needs to be mentioned. It's very noteworthy that that happend.

Abu Suleiman al-Nasser and Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami both took credit.

http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/islamic-extremist-claims-responsibility-for-oslo-bombing-group-retracts/

http://drudgeretort.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/norway-attacked-by-islamic-right-wing-extremist-group/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.215.116.115 (talk) 06:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Not sure it's very noteworthy, these seem to pop out of the woodwork any time something happens. But yes, it's part of the story. There has also been some other arrests, one knife-carrying AUF member, one nutcase who phoned in support for ABB. Also armed police at the airports. Currently, there is no indication of involvement, but it illustrates the police response and is part of the story IMHO. My edits get reverted though, so I guess this is contentious? Ketil (talk) 07:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's noteworthy to mention a claim then say it was a lie, according to theforeigner, and the second source is just a personal blog. Please bring a reliable source for any further suggestions. Good work everyone... ~ AdvertAdam ^talk 09:46, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Right wing?

There are multiple references to "right wing" in the article. However, this is an inherently vague term that is open to all manner of interpretation. Nazism and Libertarianism are both regularly described as "right wing" ideologies, and they have virtually nothing in common. Indeed, "right wing" seems to be a term used to describe anything a reporter doesn't agree with. I suggest that the use of the term "right wing" is inappropriate for this article. Deterence ^Talk 08:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Well the term is originating from reports on his own social media pages and from the few statements police have made about his interrogation. Given his professed stances, the term is certainly accurate, even if not exactly specific. We're now starting to get more significant details about his political affiliations so no doubt other terms will start making their way into the article to replace the more generic ones in some places, but for now I'd say it's entirely appropriate. Oh and just a little FYI that you might find useful - libertarianism has an entirely different meaning throughout most of Europe than it does in the United States; whereas in the U.S. it refers to a kind of ultra-deregulationist, somewhat conservative philosophy (as you alluded to) in Europe the term tends to refer to a political school of thought closer to social democracy, socialism and anarcho-syndicalism. So really almost a diametrically opposite viewpoint. Not really relevant to the current discussion, but thought it might save you some miscommunication down the road. 67.117.27.49 (talk) 09:41, 24 July 2011 (UTC)Snow

Right-wing terrorism has a far more precise meaning. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:08, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources describe him as a Christian fundamentalist, far-right Zionist and Islamophobe.([18] and others) I think we can replace "right-wing" with more accurate descriptions. JonFlaune (talk) 18:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources also describe him as right-wing in addition to those other attributes. In fact, virtually every news article I've read describes him as such, as have police (currently cite #56), so it would make little sense to exclude the term from the article. Rivertorch (talk) 18:30, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Again, agreed. Where more specific terms are called for, they should be used, but not to the exclusion of the broader term. The fact is, the man's beliefs read like a comprehensive list of the cornerstones of radical far-right philosophies; cultural and ethnic purity, extreme religious fundamentalism (and just about every cliche under this header from religious xenophobia, the role of religion in states and determining social order, the role of women, contempt for homosexuality, the list goes on and on here) condemnation of even slightly left-leaning political philosophies, strong pro-weapon views, ect. If ever there was a man who qualified for the term right-leaning, this is him. At the same time, I do understand where the reservations are coming from here -- as with any occasion that a person under such a broad ideological header commits such heinous acts, those who nominally share that affiliation reasonably want to make an distinction between such extremism and the milder and presumably peaceful form of that philosophy which they themselves practice. Bearing that in mind, I suggest a liberal application of qualifiers such as "extreme" and "radical" in many of the cases where we must use the term "right-wing." It will be entirely accurate and hopefully will go some ways to making the description more palatable to those who consider themselves on the right but who abhor such acts (which of course is the vast majority of people on the right). 67.117.27.49 (talk) 20:13, 24 July 2011 (UTC)Snow

Number of injured

The number of injured has been updated to 67 at Utøya, and 30 in Oslo. Source: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080693 (QUOTE) - Det er 67 har vært eller er til behandling etter Utøya-angrepet og 30 har vært eller er til behandling etter bomben i Oslo. Av de som er skadet etter bombeeksplosjonen, er mellom ni og ti alvorlig skadet, sier Sponheim. (END QUOTE) Translation: 67 people have been or are being treated after the Utøya attack, and 30 have been or are being treated after the Oslo bomb. From the bomb injuries, 9 or 10 are seriously injured. Kiire (talk) 09:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Done (on infobox) ~ AdvertAdam ^talk

It still says 11 and 19 in the infobox. Kiire (talk) 10:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry :( I was counting the dead and thought someone updated it. I guess I need to head to sleep (it's 4am), but it's fixed now (including the translation) :) ~ AdvertAdam ^talk 10:49, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you :) Kiire (talk) 11:09, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Christian Terrorist

The video that he published is clear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAwp2FnRmsE&skipcontrinter=1 He is a Christian terrorist. He's not a guy who happens to be Christian. His Christianity, as he understood it, played a significant role in his desire to kill the "cultural marxists" who were, as he saw it, working to weaken Christendom and the "cultural purity" of Norway. His whole shtick is to get rid of the Muslims because he saw them as a threat to Norway's cultural and religious (Christian) purity. He was a member of the "Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon." His video told Christians to be like the crusaders and battle the Muslims, join a local Templar group, and rely on the virtues of the crusaders and other people who had battled Muslims in the name of Christianity. In the video he also hated on feminism, multiculturalism, Marxism, Obama, and all the usual stuff you usually find amongst right-winger Christians in the United States. He is a Christian terrorist with religio-political supremacist ideology 66.188.228.180 (talk) 07:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Christian terrorism#Oslo, Norway Christian Terrorism for a discussion of this point. "what else could it be" is not sufficient grounds for Wikipedia, we need a Reliable source. Totnesmartin (talk) 10:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I think this should be ok, by NY-Times. They're just not sure if he's linked to a large network or not, tho. ~ AdvertAdam ^talk 10:33, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Fine. You won't accept the actual manifesto which has 'christ' 500 times in the first 200 pages of his manifesto, or the Youtube video he sent out declaring a Christian war against Muslims explicitly calling for a Christian crusade against Muslims. Fine. Well, accept the NY-Times article then, mentioned above, in it, it reads: "...left behind a detailed manifesto outlining his preparations and calling for a Christian war to defend Europe against the threat of Muslim domination." That is Christian terrorism. 66.188.228.180 (talk) 23:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Typo in "Oslo Bombing"

2nd paragraph. "chock wave" should read "shock wave"

 Done (though not by me). Jenks24 (talk) 13:16, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Progress Party "right-wing"

English is not my first language so excuse for the typos. But I find that some edits are saying that the Progress Party of Norway is a "right-wing" party, but on the progress party page I can't find sources that say this and also the evidence on this page doesn't say so either. Also, right-wing I think is a peacock term and so it shouldn't be used since Wikipedia says you cannot type this stuffs. Festermunk (talk) 12:46, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

• It is rather uncontroversial in Norway that FrP is a right wing party. E.g. this link says "The Progress party has from beginning been the most right-aligned party in Norway, inspired by the Danish Progress Party". Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:10, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry i cannot read norweigian language so I cannot see where it says the progress party is right-wing. Also, it says right-aligned, not right-wing so when you edits it you must be careful.Festermunk (talk) 13:53, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Or is Anders realy a lefty who faked his rightness?16:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The Progress Party is an anti-immigration far-right party according to The Daily Telegraph[19]. But, as the Telegraph states:

"Since Siv Jensen became leader in 2006 the Progress Party has made efforts to tone down its extremist image. Whereas mainstream party once shunned the fringe group, the centre-right Conservatives have recently considered co-operating."

JonFlaune (talk) 17:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

and this "toning down" seems to be why he left the party, or dissociated himself from it. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:13, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Notable anniversary of King David Hotel bombing

It should be noted that the bombing and massacre occurred on 65th anniversary of King David Hotel bombing, which killed over 90 people. --Magabund (talk) 13:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

• Regardless of the date, it is highly probable that it will be on the anniversary of something. The July 22 article gives many things which happened on this date. Unless there is any connection between the King David Hotel bombing and these attacks, apart from the coincidence that they are on the same date, I see no good reason to mention this. (In contrast, Waco and the Oklahoma City bombing both happening on April 20 is a different matter, since the latter attack was largely a retaliation against the former.) Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:44, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The terrorist's worldview was characterized by "extreme screed of Islamophobia, far-right Zionism, and venomous attacks on Marxism and multiculturalism" according to The Jerusalem Post[20]. The killer "espoused new right-wing, pro-Israel philosophy"[21] according to JTA. Right-wing Zionism was a motivating factor. The anniversary of the King David Hotel bombing is highly relevant and should be mentioned. There is a clear ideological link between the two terrorist attacks. (I think we can effectively rule out the possibility that this was a coincidence.) JonFlaune (talk) 17:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like OR to me 90.213.139.19 (talk) 18:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. If the killer actually said the King David Hotel bombing anniversary was part of the reason for choosing the date then fine. But if not then no (okay if a large number of reliable sources discuss the connection to the date even if the killer never has then may be as well) Nil Einne (talk) 19:11, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Anders Behring Breivik (Facebook portrait in suit).jpg Nominated for Deletion

	An image used in this article, File:Anders Behring Breivik (Facebook portrait in suit).jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests July 2011 What should I do?
	A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 14:32, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

"Indiscriminate" shooting

Contradicted by witnesses who say he was purposeful in target selection. --68.81.167.181 (talk) 18:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

If indiscriminate means he didn't care which people he shot, then yes he was. If if means he was just firing randomly at people and trees and buildings, then no he wasn't. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:15, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

But surely we could chalk this up to berserkergang, couldn't we? — Rickyrab | Talk 21:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

New important info

I just read two new articles, one (http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080715) says that the shooter used hollow point ammunition to cause as much damage as possible, and another article (http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080712) says that a police officer stationed at the island was killed by the shooter. I don't have the time to translate it and add it myself, so I'm hoping someone else can do it. Kiire (talk) 18:59, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Never mind, I've got the time to do it myself. Kiire (talk) 19:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Added now (although more can probably added from the articles) 2011_Norway_attacks#Belligerent.27s_attack Kiire (talk) 19:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Note that this is probably just hunting ammunition - which would probably be easier or less suspicious to get than FMJ military ammunition. Ketil (talk) 21:49, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Link 1

(machine translation)

(AP) Anders Behring Breivik should have used special ammunition to do the most damage when he started the massacre Utøya. AP follows

   The terrorist attacks 22 July 

More and more gruesome detail draws an ever clearer picture of Breivik as a cold, calculating killer .

The last report from the drama on Utøya, makes the picture even clearer:

Chief Surgeon Colin Poole at Ringerike Hospital, where at least 16 of the victims have been treated for gunshot wounds. He claims that Breivik used dumb-dumb bullets during the massacre.

- This is not the balls you can buy over the counter in Norway, says Poole to VG Nett.

It was said yesterday that first wrote about Poole statements.

- These balls more or less exploded inside the body of the victims. All energy from the bullets were transferred to the tissue, says Poole said.

- The internal injuries they had sustained was absolutely terrible, he says.

Faced AP emphasizes that Poole

- The fragments are so tiny that I have never seen anything like it.

Dumdum bullets are specially designed to deform when it hits the target to create the most damage. Dumdum bullets have such a tremendous effect on people that it is completely forbidden among military forces.

Expanding ammunition, in Norwegian called blyspiss or hole tip ammunition is required by big-game hunting in Norway, because it increases the chance that the animal is killed, according to Wikipedia.

- Dumdum bullets are a bit old-fashioned collective term for all expanding ammunition. I am even big-game hunter,

At least 86 killed in massacre Utøya, among them a police officer who was hired as a guard at the AUF-camp . Most of them were victims of Breivik's bullets. Some may also have drowned when they swam for their lives to escape.

The surgeon, who must have worked at the hospital for 26 years, says that the major internal injuries caused major problems for the trauma teams at Ringerike Hospital.

- As one thousand pinpricks

- It has given us all sorts of additional problems with the type of damage they have caused, with a very special ball courts. The effect inside the body is like thousands of pins and needles, says Poole.

The picture that Anders Behring Breivik has posted posing him with what looks like a Ruger Mini-14 rifle.

He describes his own manifesto how he acquired the gun legally after having been on a failed drive to Prague to buy an automatic rifle. The picture shows that he has attached special equipment on the rifle.

- It looks as if he has attached flashlight, bayonet and laser sight on the race, said one weapons expert told VG Nett.

In addition, there is attached a so-called monopod on the gun that can be used as support.

- It also looks like he has a rødpunkt-view in addition to a magnifying device, says weapons expert.

Behring Breivik describes himself in the manifesto hvorden a gun smith did trigger mechanism smoother.

A Ruger Mini 14 is a licensed hunting rifle in Norway, but the civilian weapon that can mimic most of the military. It is semi-automatic, which means you can fire the shot after shot without taking the new charging handle. Behring Breivik writes that he ordered special magazines for 30 cartridges.

Link 2

Link 2 says (machine translation, sorry: (AP) The police officer who was hired as a guard at the AUF-camp on Utøya, was killed by the perpetrator. AP follows

   The terrorist attacks 22 July 

The policeman had been a guard at the camp for several years and was also this year hired the so-called "private paid overtime." The official works normally in the Police Immigration Unit.

He was hired in private, was unarmed and had no protective equipment.

The program AUF had sent out in advance of the camp was that there would be police at Utøya. At a press conference Sunday night, police confirmed that there was an official on the island since the terrorist accused Anders Behring Breivik attacked.

- There has been a police officer in private paid overtime that would seem like garrisons on Utøya. We can confirm, said Deputy Police Chief Sveinung Sponheim in the Oslo police.

- Where was he?

- We do not know, what we get clarified through the investigation, said Sponheim.

VG know that the police officer is one of the victims after Utøya tragedy. The next of kin are notified. The police informed not about the policeman's condition at the press conference, but the VG has chosen to presiere that he is killed to avoid speculation. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:18, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 66.203.236.78, 24 July 2011

7 have been killed. should be changed to 93 have been confirmed dead.

66.203.236.78 (talk) 19:27, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

It already says Death(s): 7 (Oslo), 86 (Utøya), Total: 93 Kiire (talk) 19:30, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Witness Accounts

Here are links to the some accounts of witnesses of the shooting: (in Norwegian)

http://www.nrk.no/video/gjerningsmannen_valgte_og_la_adrian_pracon_leve/617A8569F7EE130B/

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/ostafjells/telemark/1.7725435

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7723955

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/nrk_sogn_og_fjordane/1.7725415

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/sorlandet/1.7725249

I thought they might be relevant, but are uncertain of how to integrate their information into the article. --Painocus (talk) 19:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

The needed citation in the "Possible accomplices" section

This URL is an interview (in Norwegian) with three survivors, at least one of which claim that there must have been more than one shooter. The authors of the article (Jarle Brenna , Gordon Andersen , Morten Hopperstad , Bjørnar Tommelstad , Rune Thomas Ege and Tor-Erling Thømt Ruud) also write that several survivors they have spoken to claim this. http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080627 From the Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang, retrieved 2011-07-24.

Torbjorn Bjorkman (talk) 19:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC) Torbjörn Björkman

Citation added Kiire (talk) 19:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Okay, there might have been more than one berserker on Utoya. Good to see someone taking note of that. — Rickyrab | Talk 21:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikilinks within quotations

As I've just pointed out at Talk:Anders Behring Breivik, we should not put Wikilinks onto words within quotations, as this violates Wikipedia:Manual of Style: "As much as possible, avoid linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader". There is no need whatsoever to link such terms 'Pro-gay, or 'Israel' in any case, under WP:OVERLINK - Our readers will know what such words mean. I am going to remove any such links, and ask that people do not reinsert them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Steroids

I've read several news accounts that stated that he used steroids. Since steroids cause paranoia, psychosis and overt aggressiveness, I think his use of anabolic steroids should be included as a causal contributing factor. 69.236.142.83 (talk) 22:01, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

According to his book iz was a 9 year planning and he only took steroids in the final year.--89.143.114.225 (talk) 22:13, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Over categorisation

I just used HotCat to remove Category:2011 in Norway, Category:Terrorism in Norway and Category:Terrorist incidents in 2011 because all three are children of, and thus redundant to, Category:Terrorist incidents in Norway in 2011.

I also removed Category:Zionist terrorism both because there is no citation in the article to support it; and it is unlikely that a Christian fundamentalist would be a Zionist, as we define it in out article on Zionism.

All those removals have been reverted. Why? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 22:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I reverted them, as I only saw 4 edits by a script with no reason given. You should specify a reason as to why you are removing something. I have not looked deeper in to the categories, so I'll take your word for it, I only reverted it because I thought it was a malicious script or something. Kiire (talk) 22:37, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

HotCat is widely used; if you have issues with how it works I suggest you raise them in its talk page. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 22:43, 24 July 2011 (UTC).

Then I apologize, I don't edit much here. But the edit summary is there for a reason, you shouldn't blame others for not having a proper reason. I'm sure you can understand how it looks wrong for a "newbie" like me when 4 categories are just removed with no reason given. Kiire (talk) 22:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Zionist?

File:Pears-Soap-barbox.jpg

Among the things that Wikipedia isn't, there is the soapbox. So do like the soap in the picture, and get out of the soap box. Besides, is better when you are neekid™.

Are you serious? This guy's basically a nutcase so calling him a "Zionist" is about as correct as calling David Koresh "Jesus". The source given does not call him a Zionist either - that's a pure invention by some Wikipedia editor. And since this is breaking news I'd be very very careful about attributing such controversial labels to anyone until such a moniker is widely reported in reliable sources (which, obviously, it's not going to be, since the contention is plainly ridiculous).

Another reason why Wikipedia shouldn't try to cover news. WP:NOTNEWS.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

More to the point, why not just describe him as a Knight Templar? I'm sure there's sources for that. Seriously, this is just highlighting how pathetic Wikipedia can be sometimes.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:29, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Until the sitiation is better understood, why not just say he appears to be associated with "several different ideologies?" 173.247.29.132 (talk) 22:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

He's a Viking. He comes from that part of the world, right? — Rickyrab | Talk 22:45, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources describe him as a Christian fundamentalist, a far-right Zionist and an Islamophobe.[22] Possibly there are other descriptions. There is no doubt he held what the Jerusalem Post calls "far-right Zionist" views, and this is both properly sourced and a crucial point (se this article in the Financial Times). JonFlaune (talk) 22:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

That source does not describe him as a "Zionist". It just says that his manifesto has "Zionist" stuff in it. It is not at all crucial. It is not anymore crucial than the fact that he called for Knights Templar to rise again or something. Just leave this junk out until a clearer picture emerges. This is an encyclopedia not a sensationalist tabloid.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

And your FT link doesn't have crap about "Zionists" in it so I don't know what in the world you're talking about.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Multiple sources point out far-right Zionist/pro-Israel views, along with Christian fundamentalism and Islamophobia, as the central components of his worldview. This has been discussed before, and is widely reported by reliable sources. JonFlaune (talk) 22:53, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

What multiple sources?Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

And there are also multiple sources which point out pro-Knight Templar views, so why aren't you putting that in the article? This is amazingly stupid. The guy is a nutzoid. You can't pigeon hole him into some category just to score some political points.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

He is a self-described Zionist, as reported by the JTA: JTA: Norway killer espoused right-wing philosophy claiming to be Zionist. This has also been reported by the Jerusalem Post and other sources. And we ALREADY have Christian fundamentalist in the lead, that covers the Knight Templars etc. JonFlaune (talk) 23:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

He is a self-described Knight Templar for fuck's sake!!!!!!! Stop it. You're a new (?) account and this kind of politically charged sensationalism is not appropriate for an encyclopedia.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:05, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of what these "reliable sources" say, anyone who has taken more than a cursory glance at his manifesto would see that he is not a Zionist nor a Christian fundamentalist (though he is pro-Israel and a Christian). His main schtick is anti-multiculturalism, specifically in regards to Islam. Lazy reporting does not change what the perpetrator himself has described as his motivation. --Imperialles (talk) 23:02, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

He has several shticks, not just one. We describe all of them, which are described by reliable sources, and mention the most important ones in the lead. He has himself described what he considers most important, and supporting Israel is one of them, in fact it may be the motivating factor for killing almost hundred members of a party he considers to be pro-Palestinian. JonFlaune (talk) 23:05, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

And that right there is classic original research: supporting Israel ... may be the motivating factor for killing almost hundred members of a party he considers to be pro-Palestinian. . In other words, this is shit which you yourself just made up on the spot right now. And btw, for someone who just began editing Wikipedia, you're awfully familiar with the procedures. Please, someone just take all this junk out, the Zionism, the Christian fundamentalism and everything else. Not only is it undue and pov but it's also insulting to the victims, having them hijacked like that for some unrelated political purpose. If we have to have an article on this thing then just stick to the facts and eschew all the motivations crap.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:13, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

From the manifesto: "Q: If you were to coin a word for the ideology or movement you represent, what would it be?" "Cultural conservatism or a nationalist/conservative direction known as the Vienna school of thought. As for the political movement; I would describe it as a National Resistance Movement, an Indigenous Rights Movement or perhaps a Conservative Revolutionary Movement. Justiciar Knights are not an ideologically homogenous group. Many Justiciar Knight Commanders would probably reject some of my personal views as I would with theirs. Some are deeply Christian while some are Christian agnostics or even atheists. Some are individualists while others not so much so, some puritans. The primary factors that unites us is that we are all nationalists, anti-Marxist, anti-Islam(isation), we support indigenous rights and we are revolutionary, willing to martyr ourselves." I know that Breivik is pro-Israel, but his actions cannot be said to be in any part motivated by Zionism or the state of Israel. --Imperialles (talk) 23:12, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Until the situation is better understood, why not just say he appears to be associated with "several different ideologies?" LET'S NOT give him a victory by taking sides regarding his paranoid psychotic world-view. He is an obviously sick product of our society, I hope you will all fight the urge to participate in his insanity.173.247.29.132 (talk) 23:01, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

NPOV tag

User:Cerejota just removed the NPOV tag with an edit summary of tagcruft, no discussion on talk about neutrality, besides, this is a current event, there is no history to fight over. Obviously there is a neutrality discussion concerning this article, right above. The fact that this is a current event is... well, completely unrelated.

The neutrality of this article at present is disputed. Hence, the tag belongs here. I would appreciate it if it was restored.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:18, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I see no reason for a tag. All content of the article is reliably sourced and relevant. Final stop. JonFlaune (talk) 23:19, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

You don't see a reason for it because you're the one POV pushing. Others obviously disagree. That means a dispute exists. A tag makes the reader aware of the fact. Removing the tag is hence disruptive.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

How about the above suggested, "appears to be associated with several different ideologies," and also mentioning that he might have been influenced by the ongoing controversy surrounding Israel/Palestine? I hate labels, but Zionist is not a dirty word, however I do understand why it might be inflammatory, also Christian, Pro-Gay, Fundamentalist, Right-Wing, I mean wow, this guy really knows what buttons to push, he's a psychopath going for his 15 minutes of fame. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.247.29.132 (talk) 23:36, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

How about we leave these kinds of controversial badly sourced speculations (especially with the "self-described" adjective) out? It's not essential information, this is a developing story, it's better not to give in to sensationalism.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:38, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

He carries out a politically motivated terrorist attack against the Labour Party. Exactly how is his political position "not essential"? JonFlaune (talk) 23:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Because he's nuts? Because he thinks he's a Knight Templar? This is like putting "Ted Kaczynski was an environmentalist" in the Unibomber article.

And let me repeat myself. No source has called him a "Zionist". That is your own made up nonsense. Show me a source which calls him that or remove this junk.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I have shown you several sources including the JTA which refers to him as Zionist. Come up with sources yourself to prove the other sources are wrong. Also, he has been active on pro-Israeli websites in Norway for years, he clearly has some distinct political beliefs for carrying out a politically motivated attack that we need to describe. JonFlaune (talk) 23:55, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

No you haven't. You've given two sources of which the first one says that his manifesto had some stuff which could be described as "Zionist" in it, and the other one which says he claimed to be a "Zionist". He also claimed to be a neo-Nazi and a Knight Templar. Neither of these sources itself call him a Zionist. This is a pretty simple to understand distinction. At this point it's hard to escape the conclusion that you're purposefully pretending not to understand what is being said.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:02, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Where has he claimed to be a neo-Nazi? The sources I've seen state the opposite, he considers Nazism, Islam and the Left ("Cultural Marxists") to be his enemies. Quite frankly, many of his views are typical extreme neoconservative views (which has also been pointed out by sources[23]). JonFlaune (talk) 00:09, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

The srilanka evidence is from a blog (http://alexbkane.wordpress.com/) people should be aware of this.Festermunk (talk) 00:40, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

You have shown us several valid sources, all of which derive their information primarily from Breivik's manifesto. You are entirely correct that he has pro-Israeli views. However, from reading said manifesto it is very clear that Zionism is not a primary motivator for his actions, and is in fact but a fraction of his many political views. To mention Zionism in the introduction is misleading, because he is first and foremost an anti-multiculturalist. I agree his views should be detailed in the article, but the way the introduction is worded at the moment is bad precisely because Zionism is not his main political affiliation, and not why he killed all of those people. I suggest you leaf through the manifesto, particularly the handy Q/A section near the end. --Imperialles (talk) 00:12, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with rewording the introduction, I don't claim it's perfect, and his opposition to multiculturalism would be a good idea to include. But he states on p. 650 that

"I believe Europe should strive for: A cultural conservative approach where monoculturalism, moral, the nuclear family, a free market, support for Israel and our Christian cousins of the east, law and order and Christendom itself must be central aspects (unlike now). Islam must be re-classified as a political ideology and the Quran and the Hadith banned as the genocidal political tools they are"

and on p. 1400:

"A modern cultural conservative (nationalist), anti-Jihad right wing alternative is emerging in Western Europe. A majority of Western European right wing groups are all anti-Islamisation and pro-Israel"

Here, he makes it pretty clear that 1) opposition to multiculturalism 2) support for Israel and 3) Islamophobia are key elements in his political thought.

An article in the Financial Times discusses the rise of "a new type of right-wing extremism" which is pro-Israel and driven by radical anti-Islam. This is not just one crazy person, these are positions also held by others on the contemporary European far-right. JonFlaune (talk) 00:22, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh, all of those elements are definitely part of his political... gumbo. I am not disputing that. My only concern is with the detail given in the introduction. It is my opinion that while his views should definitely be explained, the description given in the introduction should focus on his overarching ideology, which he himself has stated as being anti-multiculturalist and anti-Marxist. Since these views appear to form his primary (though, as you pointed out, not only) motivation for the attacks, they are the most immediately relevant for the purposes of the introduction. --Imperialles (talk) 00:33, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

He uses the word marxist to refer to anyone who are not right-wing, so it's not anti-marxism as one usually would understand the word. Anyway, I don't quite see how anti-marxism is more prominent in his worldview than pro-Israel/zionism views. We could remove the description of his political views from the lead altogether and deal with them below. JonFlaune (talk) 00:39, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I have no basis for the anti-Marxism thing other than my own reading of the manifesto, which is irrelevant. Removing it from the intro would probably be the best solution for now. We can always add it back when it becomes clear what his exact motivations were—through for example a statement from Breivik in court. Frankly, the manifesto is somewhat sloppily written, and a direct explanation from the perpetrator would clear a lot of things up. --Imperialles (talk) 00:49, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I removed it from the lead and instead added a direct quote from the Jpost in the section on his political views. JonFlaune (talk) 00:53, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Psycopathic killers are not political, he did this because he wants to get on the world stage. He evidently sought attention, and approval in some pretty unconventional places, sort of like a troll. Don't feed the troll, stay neutral 173.247.29.132 (talk) 23:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

That's fine as your opinion, but it does not belong in WP. I've read through some of the manifesto, and I think anybody calling him a zionist must be trying to use this tragedy to further their personal political agenda, and I wish they'd stop. It's clear that his political motivations are cultural conservativism (meaning he wants to "protect" national culture from outside influence), perhaps nationalism, and Christianity. Other terms, like neo-nazi or zionist should, when notable, be cited with an author or publisher qualification ("XXX calls him an YYY") Ketil (talk) 00:28, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Your reading of the manifesto is irrelevant, as is that of any editor. What we care about is what the reliable sources say. verifiability, not truth.--Cerejota (talk) 00:32, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

GLock 16?

Is there even such a thing as a Glock 16? I can't find it in the Glock pistol article or on the company web site. I see Financial Times writes it, but that could be a mistake. Probably it was a Glock 17 – a relatively common gun in Norway. I found a couple of sources that call it a Glock 17: [24] (Danish), [25] (Norwegian) Lampman (talk) 23:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I took Glock 16 one from the FT. If there are other sources, then Glock 17 it is. Cimmerian praetor (talk) 00:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

The manifesto talks about plans to buy and to apply for a Glock 17, but refers to owning a Glock 34. Ketil (talk) 00:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Serbs, London, 2002

"At the centre of the inquiry is the maniac’s claim that there was a 2002 London ‘summit’ of far-Right fundamentalists from across Europe, including two Britons." Source: Did Norwegian maniac plot his gun rampage in London? As death toll rises to 93, extremist reveals chilling UK link Should this be included to part about preparation of the attack, or is it more into the biography article? It definitely made a mark on him, but can this be directly connected to the preparation? Cimmerian praetor (talk) 00:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

"Christian fundamentalist"

I believe that while the descriptor "Christian" for Breivik is accurate, the description as a "Christian fundamentalist" is based on off-the-cuff assessments in very early reports and should be dropped. I have discussed my reasons in detail at: Talk:Anders_Behring_Breivik#Religious_section where further discussion of this should be directed. Peter G Werner (talk) 00:57, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

It should absolutely stay, just read his writtings where he calls him self a templar and even a great defender of the Christendom in Europe!--89.143.114.225 (talk) 02:27, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the final article on the 2011 Norway Attacks will probably not contain a lot of detail about this person, but perhaps relevant links to other mass murderers, and possible traits they share. 173.247.29.132 (talk) 01:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Our article doesn't (or at least shouldn't) say that Breivik is a Christian fundamentalist. It can however say that he has been described as one. It isn't up to us to decide if this is true or not. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC)