Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Archive 2010

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February 8, 2010 Featured Article

I was thinking this was a great idea. How about some of the editors of this Project join me in making the Boy Scouts of America article a feature article. Notice I said February 8, 2010, which is the 100th anniversary of BSA. I would appreciate it if you join me. --12george1 (talk) 17:21, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a good thought. It will be tough to run through, as FAC gets backed up around the holidays. I think the biggest issue was with the number of primary sources from the BSA. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 21:32, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
That and the people who hate the BSA. Anyone that can pull this off gets a super duper award from me. I'll help where I can.RlevseTalk 21:53, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I know this will be hard, but I think it seems worth it to try. We might be able to do it because we have almost 2 months before 2/8/10. --12george1 (talk) 01:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Ok, the BSA article failed to make that dead line. However, does anyone want to try to get it as an FAC sometime this year? After all, the 100th anniversary of BSA is not just being celebrated on February 8, 2010. --12george1 (talk) 22:57, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

National Camping School

I swore we had an article on this, but I can't find it. Help? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 09:51, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I have every Scouting article on my watchlist but this one does not exist. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:15, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Even the non-BSA ones, Gadget? And all images? RlevseTalk 12:29, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
I have 6,159 pages on my watchlist. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:16, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
HOLY COW and I thought my 2K or so was a lot. RlevseTalk 23:30, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
I guess I will go ahead and tell you that I've got approximately 11,900 pages on my watchlist. -MBK004 07:52, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Portal:Scouting broken

When Jan 1, 2010 rolled around this portal display went awry. I checked it on both my computers and it looks the same: some portlets display on the left with blank space on the right, some display across the whole screen, and then some display on the right with blank space on the left. I changed my screen settings and it doesn't help. I have not changed any of the portal's code, so one would think something with the new monthly content is breaking it, but I have no idea what. It displayed fine prior to that. Can anyone help? Thanks. RlevseTalk 14:42, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I saw what you described, went to edit the page and it was fixed. Looks OK now in FireFox and IE. Server hiccup? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:18, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
yea, it seems to have fixed itself, go figure, New Year Wiki Gremlins I guess. RlevseTalk 15:28, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
An anon realized I left off <div><center> tags on the picture page, hehe. RlevseTalk 15:38, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Template:Scoutorg BSA

Okay, the last redlink at the bottom is for Northeast Region, anyone up for it? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 14:08, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


My first official act as coordinator is to present Rlvese as our first coordinator emeritus; I have added the userbox to his about page:

WikProject Scouting coordinator emeritus.svgThis user is a coordinator emeritus of WikiProject Scouting.

---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:56, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

♪For he's a jolly good fellow...♪ Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 18:41, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Wow, thank's Gadget. Neat userbox! Much appreciated.RlevseTalk 18:42, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
You are welcome. Made myself one as well with a gold wreath. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 22:23, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

commons:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Sakartvelos Skauturi Modzraobis Organizatsia 1992.svg

I put a bunch of deletion requests up yesterday at Commons, as most Scout logos are not free use, and these are improperly placed there, improperly licensed. Please feel free to weigh in. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 09:35, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

  1. Commons:Deletion requests/File:Kindred of the Kibbo Kift.gif
  2. Commons:Deletion requests/File:Join In Moot.jpg
  3. Commons:Deletion requests/File:Corpo Nacional de Escutas.jpg
  4. Commons:Deletion requests/File:Baden-Powell Scouts Association.png
  5. Commons:Deletion requests/File:Association of Armenian Scouts.svg
  6. Commons:Deletion requests/File:Asociación de Grupos de Scouts de México.jpg
  7. Commons:Deletion requests/File:6th World Scout Jamboree.svg
You should explain - in the respective discussions and for each logo separately - why these logos are improperly licensed. Just saying "I want them back on en:wiki" is a little bit weak for a deletion request.
If you did not know: Commons is the central depository for medias within all Wikimedi projects. Claiming ownership for a special local wiki (and for a specialised project) is again the spirit of the project. --jergen (talk) 13:08, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I am well aware of what Commons is and is not, as I am aware (and as you often remind me) that some things get uploaded improperly. None of the above are free use, they are all fair use, and anyone claiming copyright ownership is incorrect. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:39, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
The question is whether the particular logo is free use or not. One question i the first date of publication. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

01 Raffles Scout Group

I requested that 01 Raffles Scout Group be merged to The Singapore Scout Association. This has been supported by members of the project but disputed by the editor who wrote it. In effect the merge would be just returning it to a redirect as it was before. That redirect resulted from a discussion in 2006 regarding an earlier version of an article on the Group that was very different and much worse than this one. It is unlikely that any material could be merged. If it was, it could be just as likely to be merged into Raffles Institution (Secondary) as The Singapore Scout Association. It seems a bit high handed to just revert to a redirect, and it might cause an edit war. I am inclined to nominate it for deletion at WP:AFD but I seek advice before doing so. What do folks think? --Bduke (Discussion) 21:59, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I remember this from last time and thought that there was a definite "no articles on groups" policy. It's a great Group page, but if this one stays we will get a load more, and certainly District articles would follow. I could produce articles on several notable groups just for Norfolk, so I think that it would be best if it were merged into the Raffles entry or put through AfD to get a wider verdict on whether or not we are being fair in our inclusion policy. DiverScout (talk) 22:11, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
There is no blanket ban of Groups, or Troops or Units, but there is general agreement that they have to be very notable possibly for something outside Scouting, such as Surrey-Thomas Rover Crew or the first of its kind. I have just had a brief look around and found Toronto Police Service Rover Crew, Delftsche Zwervers, and Oxford University Scout and Guide Group. I thought there was a very old Group somewhere. --Bduke (Discussion) 22:37, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
That makes it a harder call, then, as what is notable to one editor is often not seen as notable to others and vice-versa. If there is doubt about Raffles, as seemed to be the case before, I guess I'd go for AfD and see what the outcome was from a broad spread of editors. DiverScout (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes— we must judge each article on its own merits. Units and groups are very difficult to establish notability, as are most local camps, and most articles are hagiographic and full of trivia. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 02:54, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Finland and India had very short stub articles which we merged about four years ago. (Jeez we're old...) There was one on a now-dead gay Scout troop, now merged. Looking at Toronto Police Service Rover Crew, I think that one needs a merge too. Not particulatly notable at 6 years old. My troop is the oldest surviving in Colorado, and I would not put an article up. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 03:06, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Scout response to the 2010 Haiti earthquake

Has anyone seen any coverage? --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 08:52, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

See Portal:Scouting/Scouting news. I encourage everyone to watchlist that page. The BSA is referring folks to the Red Cross.[1] ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:04, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
See also WAGGGS: Girl Guides and Girl Scouts around the world reach out to their Haitian sisters [2]. There are also projects of NSOs to support the help of WOSM and WAGGGS i.e. in Austria[3]-Phips (talk) 16:54, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
CNN has published an article about a Haitian Scout and her troop here. Kingbird (talk) 19:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
There is a Haiti Solidarity Blog on [4]. The DPSG (German Catholic Scouts/RdP) refers to Caritas international and other Roman Catholic NGOs [5]-Phips (talk) 14:47, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
The Pfadfinder und Pfadfinderinnen Österreichs donated 15.548 Euro to WOSM-Haiti Solidarity.[6]-Phips (talk) 20:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Haiti Youth Rebuild Fund (ISGF): [7] and Guides in Belgium reach out to the Guides and Scouts in Haiti[8]-Phips (talk) 10:12, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

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Request for support on Catholic Scouts of Europe

User:Yorkshirian is trying to rewrite Catholic Scouts of Europe in an advertisment for this widely criticized organization including rewriting sourced sections to the contrary and still referring to the same source. --jergen (talk) 10:47, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm. RlevseTalk 13:16, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Looks like the article needs some work. I will have to take a look in a bit. This should be discussed on the talk page. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:28, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Boy Scout

The Boy Scout article is under discussion again. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Scouting Frontiers: Youth and the Scout Movement’s First Century

Block, Nelson R. (2009,). Scouting Frontiers: Youth and the Scout Movement’s First Century. Newcastle upon Tyne: Cambridge Scholars Publishing. ISBN 1-4438-0450-9. Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) is a fascinating book arising from an academic conference on Scouting History in 2008. I still have a lot to read, but I will update this section as I do so. I have used chapter 13, on Muslim Scouting in UK, to update and correct some of the information in Scouting in Wales on the 1st Cathays (Al-Huda) Scout Group, which is a specific case study in that chapter. We had an article on this Group and it was merged to the Welsh article. It also discusses the Muslim Scout Fellowship so I have added a sentence to The Scout Association. Chaper 3, "Trademark: Scout" discusses legal action against the Girl Scouts in the 1920s by the BSA in a failed attempt to get them to stop calling themselves Scouts. West considered the Girl Scouts to be a threat to the BSA not just to their trading income, but to the BSAs whole concept of masculinity. Amazing stuff. We need to use it. That chapter and the one before it taught me more about why the BSA differs so much from Scouting in Europe and Australia, than anything else I have ever read. Chapter 6 deals with Scouting in Australia from foundation to WWI in 1914 and shows how the challenge of militarism in Australia was very different from that in the UK and that it diminished membership almost to the point of Scouting folding. Numbers recovered after WWI. I knew nothing of this and will try to add a small section in the Australia article. If others have a copy, please add some comments here about using this source. --Bduke (Discussion) 01:50, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Man that sounds great! Want to write an article on the book itself? --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 12:22, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
I would love to have that in my library, but it is still $60 here in the US. You should check out Scout Active Support, formerly Scout Fellowship. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 12:41, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Block is very knowledgeable and holds rights to lots of William Hillcourt stuff. He helped get that to FA. I've had email exchanges with him. I should get this book.RlevseTalk 13:11, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Kintetsubuffalo, I doubt a book of papers presented at a conference is notable. It certainly has not been noticed much yet. Gadget850, early in the morning and I am not getting your reference to Scout Active Support. Rlevse, Block and Johnny Walker seem to have equivalent roles in the USA and UK. Block got academics together for this conference but it looks as if he is not a formal academic himself, although he writes in a scholarly way.

More detail:

  • Chapter 4 deals with Zionist Scouting in Israel, but I have not read it yet.
  • Chapter 5 looks at the concept of a citizen in Scouting and Guiding and how this has lead to a very different way of doing thinks between Scouting and Guiding. It helped me to understand why amalgamation between Scouts and Guides in UK or Australia, and amalgamation between WOSM and WAGGGS has not happened in spite of good will. It is not just about the view that girls need their own space and boys need to work together with girls.
  • Chapter 7 is about the middle east between the two World Wars. Again I have yet to read it.
  • Chapter 10 is about Guides in Kenya and some comments about why Scouting was different. It discusses the start with only European girls and then the slow incorporation of first Asian and then African girls.
  • Chapter 10 is a fascinating discussion on what he calls the Younger and Older Boy problem in the BSA, outlining first how Scouting works on child psychology program called racial recapitulation theory which I had never heard of. It certainly was not a well know theory in the UK and certainly did not influence TSA. For those just after facts, it gives the story of the start of Cubs after a long resistance to having them, and a lot about Sea Scouts, but nothing about the more recent Venturer program.
  • Chapter 12 deals with the "God" issue in the BSA and makes some interesting points.

OK, more about the few chapters I have not mentioned later. --Bduke (Discussion) 21:45, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

  • The Muslim Scout Fellowship is listed at Scout Active Support, recently renamed from Scout Fellowship by the Scout Association. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 22:26, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
  • For more on "racial recapitulation", I recommend Macleod, David L. (1983), Building Character in the American Boy: The Boy Scouts, YMCA and Their Forerunners, 1870–1920, University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN 0-299-09400-6
  • Venturing started as a split with Exploring. Career oriented Exploring posts such as Fire Exploring, Law Enforcement Exploring and the like were supported by local government agencies who were having issues with the BSA's membership policies. Career Exploring was move to Learning for Life, which does not have the policy issues and the others, such as high-adventure Exploring, were renamed Venturing.
---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 22:56, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Chapter 7 deals almost entirely with Aleppo, Syria. I have added something at Talk:Scouting and Guiding in Syria. Chapter 10 does not talk about Explorers either. I have added the reference to Scout Active Support. Does the Muslim Scout Fellowship in UK need an article? --Bduke (Discussion) 06:59, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I think you should expand the SAS article (who came up with that name?) until it needs a split. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
It´s a great book. I bought and read it.-Phips (talk) 13:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Old merge discussions

Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Merge

We have merge discussions almost two years old. Please review these and either close or complete the merge. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:26, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Article incubator

I have created an article incubator to allow for collaborative editing. Drafts are created with a preloaded skeleton that includes the infobox, the Scouting navbox and a workpage template that describes the page as a draft and prevents it from being indexed by search engines. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:49, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Neato!RlevseTalk 16:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Gadget-capital G. God-capital G. Coincidence? You rock! --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 17:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
I tried it with the Region 7 Article as discussed in the "todo" section. I didn't notice that there was a word "title" inside the title and replaced the contents of the whole box with the proposed title. This puts the article in main namesapce.
If you ever are trying to make something dummy proof and need a test pilot, I volunteer. North8000 (talk) 12:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I started one "BSA High Adventure Bases" North8000 (talk) 14:04, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Looks like you started it at User:North8000/Region7. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:08, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
It's "BSA High Adventure Bases" in the place you created

I've abandoned the one in my user space. Also set it up with the broader "BSA High Adventure Bases" title with Region 7 being merely a section.

This is just brainstorming / or something to get the conversation going. I have no opinions on this. North8000 (talk) 15:43, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I started adding some info on the existing camps, mostly based off the intro paragraphs of the main pages for each camp. Three down, Three to go :D - IanCheesman (talk) 17:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Huntsville shooting Please have a look. Worth an article? --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 20:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

March portal theme

WikiProject Scouting Guiding 2010 Centenary Wikipe-tan.svg

I have chosen an all Girl Scout/Guide theme for the March 2010 portal. I've had themes before, like the Netherlands one. Help in this in the future appreciated. RlevseTalk 17:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Jergen has given me a great set of German articles for April, can others put articles and pics for other themes on the portal candidates pages? Aussie, Brit, Indian, whatever, thanks!RlevseTalk 19:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
If we can find free-use pics of Japanese Girl Scouts, they are adorable and have the nicest old-school uniforms! They are everywhere here, helping out all over the place, but my only camera is my phone. Any suggestions where I can look on the Internet for free ones? --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 07:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Further, I have asked User:Kasuga to make a Girl Scout/Guide version of Wikipe-tan, the Wikipedia mascot, but thus far no answer. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 07:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
ps-update, take a look at what's brewing at Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Illustration workshop#Wikipedia:Wikipe-tan! Wikipedia can be fun! --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 11:56, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Many Japanese love photography, I'm sure one of your friends has a good digital camera they can use to take free Scout pics. RlevseTalk 00:42, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

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I found this at Regensburg lecture while researching for a new article:

What part of that translates to "Boy Scout"? The Arab Scout orgs use kashafa or Scout itself. I'd hate to think there's a group like this calling themselves Scouts. If it's a mistranslation, we need to find and correct this. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 04:36, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


And it is in {{Armed Iraqi groups in the Iraq War and the Iraq Civil War}}. We have articles on Islam and Salafi, but I can't find a translation for "Kataab Ashbal". I'm am asking at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language#Kataab Ashbal Al Islam Al Salafi. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 12:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
I switched <references /> to {{reflist-talk}}, designed for use on talk pages.
The Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic defines shibl (plural ashbāl اشبال) as meaning "lion cub; a capable young man, brave youth, young athlete." See Fedayeen Saddam for Ashbal Saddam (Saddam's Lion Cubs), probably the previous incarnation. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:29, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Then I propose changing "Boy Scout" to "Youth" in every instance, with that reference. Is that okay? --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 03:06, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Found another correction here:[9] The problem is that Islamic Salafist Boy Scout Battalions has been reported as such in the media. I added notes to Assyrians in Iraq and Regensburg lecture. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 12:17, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
FWIW: The BSA had Lion Cubs until 1967 and currently has an experimental program called Lion Cubs for kindergarten age boys. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 22:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
In the USA back then Lion was a rank in Cub Scouts rather than a membership or organization classification. I was one, still have my Lion badge on my old cub scout uniform earned about 1961/1962. North8000 (talk) 02:01, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Harmon award (scholarship) for Eagle scouts

  • See Harmon award (disambig) and this. I've seen some obituary notices in which the people listed their Harmon award as a notable achievement, so maybe this deserves an article or a list... • Ling.Nut 05:26, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
There are lots of Eagle Scout based scholarships, none noteable for separate wiki articles. RlevseTalk 10:22, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
That's why we decided to list only those scholarships directly offered through the National Eagle Scout Association. There are a myriad of local scholarships and awards. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

The Dump

I know that The Dump[10] is a resource used by several of us. The UK Scout Association have demanded a payment of £500 for the site to be permitted to continue (despite most of the books being long out-of-print). I know that this is a cheeky post, but many of us use the site to help our research I thought it important for us all to know that this time the site is in need of our help. DiverScout (talk) 22:31, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Eek! I love The Dump - will post on Escouts if no-one else has already. DuncanHill (talk) 22:35, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Already an active thread there, and someone has asked Wayne Bulpitt to try to find an amicable solution. DuncanHill (talk) 22:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
They raised the 500 pounds required by TSA and are back in business. --Bduke (Discussion) 11:07, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Peace Scouts

Several editors are meatpuppet canvassing and violating WP:POINT at this disambig page. There are so many disambigs in really sorry shape, yet they've chosen this one to target. It's unnecessary and it's getting old. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 07:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

It is not a big deal. People who specialize in one aspect such as disambig pages have a fixed view of how things should be. Let them have their own way and move on. It is not as if their version is really unclear. --Bduke (Discussion) 08:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Yep, it's a dab page, not worth the effort unless sanctions get warranted. Zealots are oh so alike. This reminds me of the WP:MOS wars and date delinking arb case. RlevseTalk 10:04, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
The editnotice links to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages). The rules for dab pages are fairly clear— one link per line, don't pipe links unless, etc. Remember— dab pages are not lists, they are directories of articles with similar names. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 12:10, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
Okay, now that I've had you guys' input on this, I will respect your views. I think such cabals are one reason Wikipedia is not growing at the moment. I hope that reverses someday, this can be a great place, else we wouldn't still be here. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 19:56, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

How the Boy Scouts Work

HowStuffWorks has an interesting article on How the Boy Scouts Work about the BSA. The content on Venture Scouts and the photos of members of The Scout Association is especially intriguing. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 21:40, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Very interesting.RlevseTalk 22:14, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Indeed, but what photos of members of The Scout Association? It looked like all BSA to me at what was, I confess, a quick read. --Bduke (Discussion) 22:24, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
There's a Cub in SA uniform, I think a couple more. DuncanHill (talk) 22:31, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Yea, the young kid in a green uniform in the beginning pics is not a BSA Cub Scout.RlevseTalk 22:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
The second page (lad washing a car) is a British Cub, as is the boy on the third page. I think they are in the jumper before the current one. DuncanHill (talk) 22:35, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
There are two photos of SA Cubs.. Interesting to compare to our article. The BSA has a Venturing division, with the members called Venturers— the Venture Scout section is not found in the US. The Order of the Arrow is an honor society, not an award. Many minor mistakes. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:35, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I just noticed this is used as a source for Order of the Arrow. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
The National Park Service is promoting the BSA centennial. Unfortunately, they seem to have grabbed the second Cub Scout photo for their site.[11] ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 03:18, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Cpedia is apparently a new encyclopedia. The Boy Scouts of America article is mind numbing. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 02:52, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

How scouts became cool again, Monday 19 April 2010:

-Phips (talk) 13:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Scouting in the regions of England

There has been a discussion at Talk:Scouting in South West England#Not a satisfactory article that could equally apply to all 8 region articles in England and to the 3 on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. These articles are all linked under "Countries, regions and territories" in the "Scouting and Guiding in the United Kingdom" box at the bottom of all these and other UK Scouting articles. The complaint is that the material is not all grouped under the sections on each Scout Association County. These articles were created in 2008 by merging together very unsatisfactory articles on individual Scout Counties, with the intention that they cover all of Scouting in the government regions, not just the Scout Association, but not Guiding, which has its own articles on their regions which do not match the Scout Association regions or the government defined regions. I think it is worth revisiting these articles here. Since they were created, there has been little addition to the history or role of Scouting. Most additions have been to the camp site and Gang Show information. Can other editors give this a look? --Bduke (Discussion) 09:16, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

  • I am very sorry to have to say this, but Bduke has opened this debate with a misrepresentation of what I have said. The concern was not that material is not grouped together under Scout Association County, but that is is not arranged by county. I would ask him to remove the incorrect assertion before we go any further. DuncanHill (talk) 11:34, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I would presume the Bduke is giving his interpretation of the issues. If he has misinterpreted your comments elsewhere, then please summarize them here. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I have given them quite clearly at the discussion linked at the head of the thread. Perhaps that could be copied over to here? DuncanHill (talk) 15:40, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree that this is a less-than-great example of such an article, as the internal boundaries of The Scout Association appear to have been employed to describe the geographic spread of Scouting in the Area. As these are unknown to most people outside of TSA, and do not alway agree with real boundaries, I would agree that this article should be rewritten to cover the national geopolitical boundaries. DiverScout (talk) 16:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Duncan, I am sorry if I have misrepresented what you said. I see now that I might have done. You wrote "I would suggest as a first step re-arranging this article into county-by-county subsections, which could then be the destinations of the various county redirects". Now the county redirects are from SA Counties. The first I found was Cornwall Scout County (The Scout Association). The article has a major section for the Scout Association with sub-sections for the SA Counties. I thought therefore that you were saying that the material of camp sites and Gang Shows in SA County XX, should be moved under the SA County XX heading. It seems you were asking for a complete rewrite to put material under the administrative counties. Is that correct? If so there are problems. In this case of the South West England region I think the SA Counties line up with the real counties. They also line up with the traditional counties. Neither is true in general. I would also agree with DiverScout that people are not always aware of the administrative counties. They are aware of the tradition counties. I come from Yorkshire. I relate to that. As I travel around that traditional County, I am never sure which administrative county I am in at any one time. I do however know that some of my favorite places have moved between North Yorkshire and West Yorkshire. The regions have fairly clear boundaries and in the whole of the UK I think there is only one place where a SA County is in two regions. I think it on Teeside. Only there does material have to be two of these articles. By your attachment to the west country you have selected a case that is straight forward. The others are less so. So, which counties do you want material to be grouped under? DiverScout, what national geopolitical boundaries are you suggesting. To everyone, can we please move away from this particular article and look at all 12 articles? I think it would be unfortunate if we structured these 12 articles in different ways. Does anyone disagree with that?--Bduke (Discussion) 22:23, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

The redirects that led me to the article were the "Scouting in Blankshire ones (actually the Cornwall one). Didn't know about the SA county redirects until after you pointed to the previous discussions. Yes, I was suggesting putting information into the counties, that's why I said it. DuncanHill (talk) 01:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
How about doing it by region, akin to the BSA doing it by council, cf Category:Local councils of the Boy Scouts of America? This'd keeping within Scouting rather than mixing a political division. Just a thought.RlevseTalk 01:20, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Readers will not look by region, they will look by county. One does have to be pretty dim not to know what county your in. No-one knows what region they're in. DuncanHill (talk) 01:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that's rather short sighted. The people most interested in Scouting articles are Scouts, and in this case from the UK, and they'll be familiar with regions of TSA. For example, I don't look for "Scouting in Pennsylvania", I look for "Malibu Council".RlevseTalk 01:32, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I assure you, most SA Scouts and Scouters know nothing about the SA regions. They have no discernible impact on anything we do. We think in towns and villages, groups and districts, and counties. General readers interested in Scouting will think in towns, villages and counties. DuncanHill (talk) 01:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
By the looks of it, your Councils are roughly equivalent to our Scout Counties. DuncanHill (talk) 01:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
  • I may not be contributing here for a few days, owing to a foul mood (which is not anyone here's fault). Our District St George's Day Parade has had to be cancelled for safety reasons, because a fascist group are marching in Brighton. I hope you'll forgive me if I try to steer clear of this debate for a few days just to avoid me snapping at you guys when it's not you who has put me in the bad mood. DuncanHill (talk) 01:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Sure, no problem. Thanks for letting us know. And too bad about the fascists messing things up. RlevseTalk 02:00, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
No hurries. Sounds like Mosely is having a laugh. BTW: In the BSA council category, italics are redirects. I have all the GSUSA councils set up with redirects in the same manner, even though they only have one council article. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 01:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear that, Duncan. It is bad news indeed. I think we should all take a bit of time to think about this. Part of the problem is definition of terms and not addressing the key issue. Two terms are being used loosely. Region: Scout Region or Government Region? County: Traditional County (e.g. Yorkshire) or administrative County (e.g. North Yorkshire). On Region, the Scout Regions are Scout Association Regions, so are not appropriate if these articles are to cover all Scoutiong in the UK. The key issue is whether we do that or move back to covering the Scout Association only and leave the organisation of the BPSA to be in their national article. I have made my own view clear. I much prefer the former and think the latter will get deleted. On County, in some parts of the country, there is no problem - Traditional County = administrative County = Scout Association County. In other parts it is much more complex. All three can be different. When you have been moved several times between counties as has happened in parts of the north of England, one's attachment to one's administrative County is rather low. The government Regions are neutral and we overcome the "No-one knows what region they're in" problem by lots of redirects which we already have. I had forgotten the older redirects from "Scouting in Cornwall" etc. I agree that no-one knows what region they're in, either TSA region or government region, but they are about the right size. Counties are too small as we found out years ago. --Bduke (Discussion) 02:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

My personal choice would be to keep the government regions, then break up the content according to Counties. Whether these sections be SA Counties, then other association areas or actual political ones with the association content mixed in together does not matter too much to me. Having redirects into these articles makes the other concerns less of an issue. If I look for 'Scouting in Norfolk' I still end up finding that same information when I am redirected to the appropriate section of the Scouting in 'East of England'. I don't see any advantage to splitting this content away from 'Scouting in Suffolk' etc, and certainly would oppose sites that simply advertised one association or another. They simply would not be encyclopedic.
Whether or not most people using these pages are involved in Scouting, the pages need to be written to be used by all readers. The common framework for all users would be governmental boundaries. DiverScout (talk) 12:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
How many members does the BPSA have? About 1% of what the SA has? WP:WEIGHT. DuncanHill (talk) 13:46, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

I am really not seeing that argument. The article that started this, Scouting in South West England, has in the lede "It is largely represented by the Scout Association of the United Kingdom and some Groups of traditional Scouting including the Baden-Powell Scouts' Association". That is the only mention of the BPSA. It is less than 1% of the article. WP:WEIGHT does not mean that we do not mention something. It means we give an appropriate weight. Perhaps that sentence in the lede could be edited to replace "and some" by ", with some" or ", with a few" but that is a minor point. On the major point, it seems both of you are in favour of government counties. Do you mean the current administrative boundaries? Do you want to change all 12 region articles to reflect this or just change those that you have an interest in? In general I do not have a problem with this, but I think both of you come from areas of England where the counties line up well. I would like to see consideration given to how an article would look when the counties do not line up. For example Scouting in North East England currently has SA sections on Cleveland Scout County, Durham Scout County and Northumberland Scout County. I think it would need a new section on the area of Tyne and Wear, which covers part of both Durham Scout County and Northumberland Scout County. Scouting in Yorkshire and the Humber is perhaps even more complex. Humberside Scout County covers the former non-metropolitan county of Humberside. South Yorkshire Scout County includes Sheffield, Barnsley, Rotherham and Doncaster. Each are metropolitan boroughs. There is no South Yorkshire County anymore. In a short while, Sheffield, where I was born, has gone from being a city in the West Riding, to in South Yorkshire, to just being itself. The West Yorkshire metropolitan county includes both the West Yorkshire and the Central Yorkshire Scout Counties. Is this just going to make those articles less readable? How would we structure Scouting in Yorkshire and the Humber? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bduke (talkcontribs) 22:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

It was not me who made this into a national debate. I was commenting primarily as a reader on the article I was interested in. DuncanHill (talk) 22:57, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Indeed, you were. I widened it because I work through the Scouting Project to maintain some consistency. It seems then that you are answering "the latter" to my question "Do you want to change all 12 region articles to reflect this or just change those that you have an interest in?". I do not think that is helping the reader. Many readers are going to be looking at several of these articles. I do not therefore support the change you are proposing to just one of these articles. --Bduke (Discussion) 23:09, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
In an ideal world I'd be keeping the existing pages (as individual articles on Counties have been shown not to work, so I don't see any merit in repreating the exercise), but with the sections inside the article relating to the real counties. That said, I don't see that there is enough of a reason to change the current layout, as the TSA counties are listed in a TSA section on the pages and I feel that the in-place redirects make it pretty easy for anyone interested in a location to get fairly quickly to the information they want. DiverScout (talk) 07:31, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

either weird question, or there's something there... --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 04:08, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to know too. RlevseTalk 10:01, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
I answered it. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:02, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Okay, now my curiosity is piqued. We have Scouting in displaced persons camps. Would Scouting and Guiding in World War I and Scouting and Guiding in World War II be worthwhile articles? --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 14:21, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
All three seem to raise the question that the same material could be organized / repeated under several different topics. For example, each piece of content under those three could also be under Scouting in a particular country, or history of Scouting of a particular country. It probably boils down to whether or not there is a person or persons who are willing and able to build a good article on the topic. North8000 (talk) 16:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Yea, they'd have to take the track the DP camp article did, rare and unusual info very detailed, unique to that topic that isn't usually included in the other topical articles it may touch, similarly, like when a sub article is built from a summary in a main, more general article. RlevseTalk 17:18, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
For some time, I've been considering writing an article on the GIS (Guides International Service). I have refrained from actually starting an article because have such admiration for these women that I want it to tell their story really well. I think this would be best achieved using a copy of All Things Uncertain, which I do not currently have. Such an article wouldn't repeat information already on Wikipedia. Maybe other project members know of similar war topics that exist? Kingbird (talk) 03:59, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

translation help

fr:Organisation internationale des amicales du scoutisme is up for deletion, but the info looks worthwhile, can anyone give it a translate into English? --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 05:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

An article on this organization was even deleted on, after this discussion [16]: In short, no credible information on the organization seems to exist, no activities were reported, and the organization sent spam mails to members of fr.scoutwiki.
Thus, I don't see why we should keep any content on this dubious organization. --jergen (talk) 07:16, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, it helps to have someone who can read the stuff! --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 07:19, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

The Duke of Edinburgh’s Award

The Duke of Edinburgh’s Award Young Americans’ Challenge has been available in the US since 2007, and is now being promoted by the BSA.

---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 16:42, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Portal template

All portals are now supported though a switch in {{portal}}. {{Scouting portal}} is in the process of being replaced by {{Portal|Scouting}}. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 00:04, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Now replaced. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 22:21, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Ranks in the Boy Scouts of America

Two quick questions:

1) is there a corresponding article for Cub Scouts and if not, should there be?

2) Wikipedia style differs in titles for such articles. Should it be Ranks in the Boy Scouts of America or Ranks of the Boy Scouts of America?

--Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 09:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

No opinion either way, but a few notes: There's a summary in Cub Scouting (Boy Scouts of America). In Cub Scouts these are a sort of blend of rank and "year in the program", vs. simply rank in Boy Scouts North8000 (talk) 11:16, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Proper title of the current article would be Ranks in the Boy Scouting division of the Boy Scouts of America. That article was forked from Boy Scouting (Boy Scouts of America). I don't know why, as the parent is not overly long, and there is redundant content. Don't forget that Sea Scouting uses ranks, but not Venturing. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:52, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Since it exists with the catchall name, should we then add the Cub Scout and Sea Scout stuff?--Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 12:12, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

There's also Advancement and recognition in the Boy Scouts of America North8000 (talk) 13:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I knew I should have learned to read! --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 14:38, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm out of the loop overseas, is this a new program?
Or, conversely, is this a local thing? Both sites I found this at are in Minnesota. --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 04:45, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Lion Cubs are a pilot program for kindergarten age boys in a few councils. The name is recycled— Lion was the highest Cub Scout rank until it was replaced by Webelos in 1967. Webelos originally stood for Wolf Bear Lion Scout, until 1967 when it was changed to "we'll be loyal Scouts". ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 09:49, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Yepper.RlevseTalk 10:16, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
Just trying to go from memory (and wake up a few rusty brain cells from when I went through cubs 1960-1963) I think that Webelos existed back then (before 1967) but only as a 1 year program, following Lion. Now it's a ~2 year program. North8000 (talk) 10:53, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

First member with his own article

With his permission, I've written James G. Howes, known to us as User:JGHowes and will also make a DYK nom for it. This is the first case I know of where one of our project members has their own article. So, JGHowes, how's it feel to be wiki-notable? RlevseTalk 12:07, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that is so cool. I'm very humbled and appreciative of all the work that went into the article. Of course, it's one article I will definitely watchlist without being able to edit myself!  JGHowes  talk 13:31, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
-;) and it was fun and interesting to work on. RlevseTalk 13:42, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Cool! And, nice article! North8000 (talk) 16:38, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Indeed! Rock on! --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 01:10, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Scouting userboxes

I created some more userboxes. Does anyone think they could be useful for the project?

Code Result
{{User:NerdyScienceDude/Userboxes/Boy Scout}}
WikiProject Scouting BSA current member.svgThis user is a Boy Scout.
TThis user is a Tenderfoot Scout.
{{User:NerdyScienceDude/Userboxes/Second Class}}
2This user is a Second Class Scout.
{{User:NerdyScienceDude/Userboxes/First Class}}
1This user is a First Class Scout.
This user is a Star Scout.
This user is a Life Scout.
{{User:NerdyScienceDude/Userboxes/Troop number|###}}
###This user is a member of Troop ###.
SMThis user is a Scoutmaster.
{{User:NerdyScienceDude/Userboxes/Arrow of Light}}
This user has earned the Arrow of Light award.

An example of these userboxes being used can be found here. Just scroll to the Scouting section of the userbox panel. ~NerdyScienceDude () 17:04, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Apart from the first one, they are not obvious that they refer only to positions in the BSA. I think they are confusing and their use should not be encouraged in their present form.--Bduke (Discussion) 07:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I have them [[linked]], so the userboxes do indicate that they refer to the BSA. ~NerdyScienceDude () 23:38, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Lanyard knot identfication

Another editor, a Scout, has asked at the reference desks for help in identifying and finding instructions for making a lanyard. The question is at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Unknown lanyard. I feel sure there must be someone here able to help! DuncanHill (talk) 23:00, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

James G. Howes will be DYK lead

James G. Howes is scheduled to be the lead DYK article, with photo, at 8pm Eastern US time, 1am 22 Jun UTC. Let's give it lots of views! Way to go User:JGHowes!! See current version of Template:Did_you_know/Queue and Template:Did you know/Queue/3 for more info.RlevseTalk 12:55, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

HOO YAH! It's there. RlevseTalk 00:05, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Scouting portal

Does anyone read Portal:Scouting each month? I rarely get noms for new items and it's getting harder and harder to find quality new items each month.RlevseTalk 23:30, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Not monthly but occasionally.--Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 05:32, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
For more news: Do you check WOSM's website regularly? The news section over there is good and there are also some interessting news to be found in the official papers (aka "Resource Centre"): eg. the planed readmission of Belarus [17]. --jergen (talk) 06:43, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Sometimes, but if you check this and know of the Belarus thing, why haven't you added it to news?RlevseTalk 09:53, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
I did not know that Portal:Scouting existed. That's MY FAULT, but also probably indicative that it would be good to get the word out more on what it is and where it is. North8000 (talk) 11:01, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
If you look at the talk page of any Scouting article, look at the Scouting Project tag. In the upper right-hand corner is a link to the Scouting Portal.RlevseTalk 10:31, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
And in the article itself, either in the infobox or under See also. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. I knew (and said) that it was my fault for not knowing about it.  :-) North8000 (talk) 19:38, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

William Hanna

Hanna is on the main page today as Today's FA. He was a Distinguished Eagle Scout Award recipient. It's the 100th anniv of his birth. RlevseTalk 01:40, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

União dos Escoteiros do Brasil

União dos Escoteiros do Brasil was updated by an IP by replacing File:União dos Escoteiros do Brasil.svg with File:Logo UEB.svg. The new file is on Commons, but I suspect it is copyrighted— this needs someone with some ability in Portuguese to verify it. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 01:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Left a note here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Portugal#Need_translator RlevseTalk 02:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
I searched the website from where the logo was taken and couldn't find any warnings regarding content or symbol copyrights. Not even the logo user guide mentions anything about it. I'm not sure if this can be considered as absence of copyright restrictions... Parutakupiu (talk)
In absence of copyright documentation, we always assume copyright restrictions, unless the association is many years defunct or the country no longer has Scouting, like Laos and Burma.
The Commons image was deleted, can an admin please snag a copy to en:wp so we can use it here?--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 13:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I plan to PROD Coalition for Inclusive Scouting Article.

I plan to propose deletion of the Coalition for Inclusive Scouting Article. This appears to be the unanimous consensus in the 3 1/2 year long discussion on it's talk page. See details there.

And "redirect to Scouting in the United States, where it is already mentioned." per gadget850's recommendation.

Any thoughts or advice?

Sincerley, North8000 (talk) 11:22, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'd merge it to Scouting for All instead, as a related offshoot.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 12:44, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Discussion now at Talk:Scouting for All#Coalition for Inclusive Scouting. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:44, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Scouting New Zealand

Please go to Talk:Scouting New Zealand and help us resolve what this article should be called. The current name is clearly wrong. --Bduke (Discussion) 08:33, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Posted there. RlevseTalk 23:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Leave No Trace help

I'm making this the selected article of the month, but it has A LOT of external jump URLs in the body. Help converting these to proper footnotes would be appreciated. RlevseTalk 23:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Image annotations

The ImageAnnotator can now be enabled at Special:Preferences → Gadgets → ImageAnnotator. See the link on that page for help. For an example, see File:Scouting pioneers.jpg and hover over the image. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 16:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Cool. For Commons pics you have to go to the commons page, it won't work using the en wiki "show through" page.RlevseTalk 16:28, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Did you enable the gadget? ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 16:31, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Yea, now it works, but for commons it works without enabling the gadget. Did you look at the jambo DOD pic issue?RlevseTalk 16:32, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Not yet. Been busy since Thursday and now headed off to a wedding. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:24, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

William Hillcourt TFA

This will be the TFA on August 6th! Hoo yah! RlevseTalk 23:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Cool! North8000 (talk) 23:20, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Very cool indeed. I swear I've read it half a dozen times, come up with new info each time.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 06:35, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Commons deletion Interesting discussion whichever way you fall, about a series of before-and-after Scout badges.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 06:35, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Terry Sanford TFA number three

This is currently on the main page, two days after William Hillcourt was on the main page and three weeks after William Hanna was on the main page. ROAR! RlevseTalk 00:35, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Request for photographs and images

To help address the many requests for photographs People-photo-bot has moved article talk pages from Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of people to Category:Wikipedia requested photographs of Scouting and Guiding people if it contains the template {{ScoutingWikiProject}}. Members of this project are invited to address the requests for images listed. Please note that some articles may now have an appropriate photograph and that the need-image flag has simply not been removed, this can also be checked using the Image Existence Checker link on the category page. If a page has been incorrectly moved please inform me on my talk page.--Traveler100 (talk) 12:03, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Category:Scout and Guide emblems in the public domain

Based on earlier discussions about proper-rather-than-generic tagging, and inspired by user:Egel, I created Category:Scout and Guide emblems in the public domain here and at Commons. Please have a look and tweak if you want. The images should be marked for move to Commons, however, some are ready to move to Commons, some should be vectorized (svg) before we move them to Commons.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 18:11, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

William G. Higgs

New article. Please help out. RlevseTalk 01:54, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Since we have Ging Gang Goolie... Men From Nairobi

Am I crazy, or does anyone else know this song, and its pedigree? *

Thanks, --Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 04:59, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

This website may provide needed graphics, and apparently there is some agreement between Flickr and Wikipedia, please have a look!--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 05:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Troop 1 Chappaqua

Current AfD that is probably of relevance to this wikiproject. Interesting notability asserted, few references. If anyone here is interested in helping to source the article and/or find an appropriate merge target, the subject matter expertise would be appreciated. 17:36, 30 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jclemens (talkcontribs)

Deletions like are listed on the project page at WP:SCOUT. Long standing consensus is that unit articles must meet the standards of WP:ORG. There are only two+++ notable units in Category:Local units of the Boy Scouts of America and both are notable outside Scouting. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:47, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
Concur. No solid refs, not the oldest in the country, no RS, very anecdotal. RlevseTalk 17:53, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

+++Make that three, I didn't know about that cat.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 19:06, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Countries without Scouting

I added a reference to the Scouting in Andorra article for Andorra being one of six countries without Scouting. This was removed by another editor with an edit summary saying there was a discussion here. I can't see the discussion here, could someone help me find it please? DuncanHill (talk) 00:19, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't exist, unless it's deep in the page archives. RlevseTalk 00:52, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
No, there has been recent discussion about Scouting in China, b ut I do not have time right now to find it. That is the point, Scouting in China changes the 6 to 5, but, Duncan, you are correct that it needs a source. The old source needs updating. --Bduke (Discussion) 00:57, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Found it near the bottom of the 2009 archive. The only ref given in the thread is to a clubspaces website, does anyone have any reliable sources for it? Also, to combine that with the WOSM cite to give 5 countries is synthesis surely? DuncanHill (talk) 01:05, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Categories for discussion nomination of Category:Silver Wolf awardees

Info non-talk.png

Category:Silver Wolf awardees, which is under the purview of this WikiProject, has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you.

I have raised a CfM for the above awards to bring them into line with category naming conventions used more widely in Wikipedia. Please note that Category:Members of the Order of the Silver Elephant already conforms to naming conventions for 'orders' (as opposed to decorations, medals, awards, etc) and therefore should not be a candidate for change. Cheers, AusTerrapin (talk) 15:25, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Scout uniforms to Template:Infobox WorldScouting

I've been following the World Cup articles and thought, maybe we can/should add Scout uniforms to Template:Infobox WorldScouting, like as in Template:Football kit. So I started it at Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting/Article incubator/Template:Infobox WorldScouting uniform, please have a look! --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 16:42, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Didn't work (on Firefox). Just a blob of code at the moment. DiverScout (talk) 18:31, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
Please check out !--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 18:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
To give some idea what different kinds of headgear will be needed [18] [19] [20] And I think the shirt has to much detail. --Egel Reaction? 19:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I have asked him to tone down the shirt-he's not a Scouter, just really helping us out! (fixed, check out Template:Scout_kit/sandbox and Template:Girlscout_kit/sandbox--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 16:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC))
For the hats, can we narrow it down to five or six styles? Or none at all if need be?--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 19:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
some ideas:
  • long sleeve shirt
  • short sleeve shirt
  • polo shirt (as short sleeve shirt without pockets)
  • t-shirt (as short sleeve shirt without pockets and collar)
--Egel Reaction? 17:05, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I picked the most basic

All of this is done and visible on Template:Scout_kit/sandbox.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 12:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Silver Buffalo category debate

User_talk:Fastily#Category:Recipients_of_the_Silver_Buffalo_Award RlevseTalk 09:59, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

I love Bundesarchiv photos!

Can someone give some background on File:Bundesarchiv Bild 102-07754, Prinz of Wales verleiht Preise an Pfadfinder.jpg? I want to find a way to incorporate it into Edward VIII of the United Kingdom.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 07:23, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Nothing specific but the German text states it is at a Scouting honour giving event in London. As it states Prince of Wales it must also be pre 1936. Some other links with images. [21] [22]. --Traveler100 (talk) 11:30, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Your second link is helpful. Nearly the same picture is shown on the cover of the official souvenir book for the 3rd World Jamboree, with the title "Visit of H.R.H. The Prince of Wales". The German description is faulty, as with many of the Bundesarchiv pictures. --jergen (talk) 08:07, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Bill McKown DYK

This article is scheduled to be the lead Did You Know hook, with the picture, on 28 Sep, starting at 2 pm, Eastern US time, 7pm UTC time. Bill is a retired Navy pilot, current airport manager, and Distinguished Eagle Scout. RlevseTalk 10:04, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Girl Scout National Center West expansion help

Chris created this and I've expanded it enough to make it DYK eligible, just barely. Additional expansion would be greatly appreciated. We don't get many new GG/GS articles. I've nom'd it at DYK.RlevseTalk 02:37, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

dissolution of the Netherlands Antilles, Belarus

Okay folks, unique situation for you. With today's dissolution of the Netherlands Antilles, the islands of Bonaire, Saba and Sint Eustatius became special municipalities of the Netherlands, while Curaçao and Sint Maarten became constituent countries along the lines of Aruba. But, they are keeping their Scout framework intact. How do we list multiple countries on the WOSM and WAGGGS list that share the same Scout association? The last time this happened was with Czechoslovakia, before we had Wikipedia, so this is new ground.

Also, WOSM list needs to be updated to reflect Belarus was let back in. I don't have the numbers, anyone?--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 13:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

They all stay part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. There are not that many (WOSM and WAGGGS) Scouting and Guiding groups on Sint Maarten (2S, 0G), Bonaire (2S, 1G), Saba (0S, 0G) and Sint Eustatius (0S, 0G). On Aruba there are 13 Scout groups and some Guide groups, on Curaçao 21 Scout groups and 10 Guide groups. I think it is best to wait and see what the WOSM and WAGGGS will do. --Egel Reaction? 15:04, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Guiding on Bonaire started as a branch of Guiding on Curaçao in 1995. [23] --Egel Reaction? 15:22, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Scouts Royale Brotherhood

Could we have some more eyes on this article. It is getting a lot of edits, but none are addressing the problems that have been tagged. It has no sources sources. It is not notable. It should be merged or deleted. --Bduke (Discussion) 09:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

It is amazing. There are plenty of edits going on but none are addressing the issues or even recognizing that it is proposed for deletion at AfD. The latest edit looks like a copy vio as it is all in the first person. --Bduke (Discussion) 08:15, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Scouting in the Antarctic

Can anyone find a good usable picture of Paul Siple in Antarctica during either of his Scout trips? Lots of nice ones of him in uniform, and later trips, but... Can any of the images at be used?--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 19:00, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


Not sure when they did it but BSA finally put a more up to date DESA list online. Go to this NESA site, click on the sortable list and you'll get an editable Excel file (they prob should have put it up in PDF format). It doesn't have any 2010 guys in it yet, but it does go to at least Nov 2009. I'll be updating my list from it soon. RlevseTalk 20:21, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

BTW, I've figured out that the council number is the council number the DESA nomination came from, not the council they made Eagle in.RlevseTalk 22:59, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
William Hillcourt is missing. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 04:04, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm working through the list. There are others missing. Everytime they put out a list I find a handful of errors and send them the errata data. RlevseTalk 10:02, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Found gobs of mistakes in their list, which I made from their prior hardcopy lists. I've sent them the corrections they need to make. I'm working on updating my own list.RlevseTalk 23:45, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Finished and uploaded my list.RlevseTalk 01:01, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject cleanup listing

I have created together with Smallman12q a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for WolterBot and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of Category:WolterBot cleanup listing subscriptions). See the tool's wiki page, this project's listing in one big table or by categories and the index of WikiProjects. Svick (talk) 20:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Potential FARs

I've found something which says that History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America) and Eagle Scout (Boy Scouts of America) are considered to be older featured articles which may need review against the current standards. Might be worthwhile taking a look at them to see if they could be improved. I don't intend to take these articles to WP:FAR, but thought I'd make you aware of this page. --Malkinann (talk) 22:44, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Venturer Camp

This is an article on camps of the Venturer section of the Woodcraft Folk. It was copied out of the main article, has no references and is not wikified. It has been prod'ed for deletion. Do we want to do anything to save it? I'm inclined to let it go and then revert the removal of the material from the Woodcraft Folk. There is no notability. --Bduke (Discussion) 21:16, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree. I looked though the event website. Looks like it would be be a good section in the Woodcraft Folk article. North8000 (talk) 22:15, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
It has been deleted and the Woodcraft Folk restored to the position before this material was removed. The article might need some work as North suggests. What was the link to the event website? --Bduke (Discussion) 21:06, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Hi Bduke. Its Seems like mostly material to organize, and tell the participants the essentials of what they need to know. Not much general info or descriptive stuff in there, or attendance. etc. North8000 (talk) 21:29, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I did some related reversions yesterday. -— Gadget850 (Ed) talk
I'm confused...don't see anything by y'all at the Woodcraft Folk in the last few days. North8000 (talk) 12:50, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
I reverted a redirect of Woodcraft (youth movement) to The Woodcraft Folk. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 17:10, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

22nd World Scout Jamboree 2011

I have a high quality picture of the BSA's contingent patch if anyone wants it. --Guerillero | My Talk 19:00, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

It may be of use later on. Right now, the article has no content on participants and reads more like an ad. --jergen (talk) 09:44, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Once my school work subsides during fall break i will try to shore up the article. --Guerillero | My Talk 03:18, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. Some infos on the expected number of participants can be found in the last Jamboree newsletter Aktuellt #4. The linklist shows some national contingents, but it is very incomplete. AFAIK is the UK very close to the maximum of participants, which is 3,000 for all nations except Sweden, plus 500 IST. The US should also reach this number, Germany expects about 2,000 participants (ie 50 troops) plus IST.
I think the 22nd WSJ will be larger than the expected 30,000 Participants plus 7,500 IST and staff. Nearly all European countries expect new records in participation. --jergen (talk) 08:00, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
What is Sweden's max and why is it different? RlevseTalk 09:59, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Sweden's max is 6,000 participants. The rule (do not ask me for a citable source) is: No country should send more than 10 % of the participants, except the host country, which is allowed 20 % of the participants. The size of the very large contingents (US and UK) is based on the estimated participation, not on the real numbers. --jergen (talk) 12:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the source. I would like the article to me at least a C class after the jamboree ends but that might just be a pipe dream --Guerillero | My Talk 03:54, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
The Austrian Contingent will be 15 Troops with 540 Boy and Girl Scouts, 60 Leaders and 222 IST.[24]-Phips (talk) 16:43, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

LDS project members?

Are any of you folks LDS? Is there crisper clipart I can link to for the central theme of File:Association des Scouts Liahona-SDJ.png? I am trying to get it vectorized.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 01:47, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Scouting articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release

Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Scouting articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (♦) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 23:35, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Put my 2 cents there. RlevseTalk 00:08, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

The list is very US/UK biased with the only Association articles being from the USA and UK. Some European articles would give a broader view of Scouting. --Bduke (Discussion) 01:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

By all means propose some. I suggested removing the one because it was a stub. I don't think stubs should be on the CD. I'd suspect a lot of the reason for this is systemic bias--people tend to write on things they know about and in their native language. For example, for me to write an article on Sri Lankan Scouting, there would have to be good sources in English. One can go here: User:WP 1.0 bot/Tables/Project/Scouting, click on "FA", "GA", "B", etc and one can see what our better articles are.RlevseTalk 02:03, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
What about FA The Scout Association of Hong Kong, GA South African Scout Association, B Scouting and Guiding in Germany and Scouts Australia for some associations across the world?--Bduke (Discussion) 02:59, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
B class Scout Association of Japan, my two yen.--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 03:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Added all to my post there. They say they used a new selection process, but I have no idea what that process is. RlevseTalk 10:04, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
How about the GA Order of the Arrow? ~NerdyScienceDude 13:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
It would be a shame if Olave Baden-Powell, the World Chief Guide, didn't make it on to the list, but the article is only a C class. Can I still suggest it? Kingbird (talk) 17:56, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Olave should be there, even if C class-am listing it. OA may be too country specific-what do others think?RlevseTalk 18:05, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Order of the Arrow is country specific, but I think that's what makes it interesting. Honor societies are not part of my culture at all, but I have learned in recent years of their importance to young American people. Such an article explains what life is like in America to people who have little contact with everyday life there. It's a good quality article; I think it should be given consideration. Kingbird (talk) 19:26, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest Scout Promise and Scout Law because of their enormous importance within Guiding and Scouting. They're fundamental. Kingbird (talk) 19:58, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for your discussion. I've added the articles proposed on the 0.8 page, except for Coker (low external interest) and the Germany article (low score and poor quality compared to some others). I'm also OK adding the Order of the Arrow. I see the Law & Promise articles are assessed as low quality, but score high on importance; do others here think they should be improved before we include them, or add them anyway? Thanks, Walkerma (talk) 00:12, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd say add them anyway. Other thoughts? RlevseTalk 00:34, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

To me it would be nice to see something non-WOSM/WAGGS on the list as well. B-PSA (C-High), although I'm not personally convinced that any single association ought to be on there. WFIS (Start-Top) could be an alternative. The BBS ought to be listed as the first-formed formal association, although that article is flagged as needing a rewrite so probably not a good candidate this time. DiverScout (talk) 09:34, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
I added Scout Promise and Scout Law. We expect to be producing Version 1.0 early next year, so get working on improving those key articles! Many thanks, Walkerma (talk) 23:57, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The Summit: Bechtel Family National Scout Reserve

I've taken quite an interest in this article. It needs a lot of work and given its importance to the BSA and those of us interested in BSA articles, we need to improve it. It shouldn't be hard to get it to GA level. One questions I have is: how do we know the ":" belongs in the title? BSA itself is inconsistent on this. Any help improving this appreciated.RlevseTalk 21:07, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I moved it to the colon title based on the BSA fact sheet, thus there is a redirect from the title without the colon. The colon title was already used on several pages when it was a redirect to the HA article. If the name finalizes without a colon, it is easy enough to move back. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 02:51, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
The page has been moved again. To keep a move war from happening i started a discussion on the talk page. cheers--Guerillero | My Talk 21:19, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Girl guide regions

It seems that there are a number of articles about Girl guide regional organisations which fail WP:ORG; most rely exclusively on WP:SPS. Is there any reason they are not merged/redirected to Girlguiding UK? --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:00, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

They certainly need some work, but they allow for material that would make the national association article too long. I just looked at the London and South-East England article and that has mention, with independent sources, of Guiding for the Royal family at Buckingham Palace and information about camp sites which are often where Scouting and Guiding is noticed by the general public, newspapers etc. Interesting sourced history is also often local and would make the national article very long. They also stop arguments about articles on narrower organisational levels like Counties, Districts and Companies. In general, these have taken a lot of effort to keep out of WP and using a redirect to a region article saves a lot of work. This has not happened so much with UK Guiding, but it was a problem with UK Scouting. So, they need work, but they have a valuable role. --Bduke (Discussion) 03:39, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
  • OK, thanks for the response. Yes, it would indeed not be desirable to have break-out articles of even smaller groupings. Nevertheless, care should still be taken to pare down the trivia and use sources other than self-published ones. 'Interesting' is one thing, notability is quite another. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 03:55, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
I agree. I will take a look at them all fairly soon. I keep an eye on most UK Scout articles but the Guide ones get less attention. --Bduke (Discussion) 07:08, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

The Scout Association of Hong Kong

The Scout Association of Hong Kong will be today's featured article for December 13. Please review the article to see if it needs any final polish or updates. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:17, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

FYI: New international Scouting body founded

Following a scission in the South American region of the World Federation of Independent Scouts, the dissidents and some (?; mor likely: one) Italian organization(s) have founded a new World organization, the World Organization of Independent Scouts. It's really not so easy to distinguish between WFIS, WOIS and WOSM. --jergen (talk) 15:39, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

No it's not ;-) RlevseTalk 15:58, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Anyone else notice Asociacion de Boy Scouts el Ecuador includes the text "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consetetur sadipscing elitr, sed diam nonumy eirmod tempor invidunt ut labore et dolore magna aliquyam erat, sed diam voluptua."?--Chris (クリス • フィッチ) (talk) 18:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
  • I did. There is also a missspelling: "el" should read "del".
  • And did you notice the strange arrangement of regions? A draft of the statutes shows the originally design [25], which was very close to the regions of another well known World organization ;-) --jergen (talk) 07:30, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
I have started the article World Organization of Independent Scouts, can someone put some text in it? I have already put the logo in. --Egel Reaction? 19:31, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to wait some months to see if the organization still exists. --jergen (talk) 07:30, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
And has some reliable independent sources.--Bduke (Discussion) 08:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
Articles to update as we get info:
---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 14:33, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

And an other one but somewhat older: International Scout Fellowship. The "ISF" is to the WFIS what the ISGF is to the WOSM and the WAGGGS. Not much information, so let's keep it a section of the WFIS-article.--Egel Reaction? 18:34, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Yet another one international organization

I just found the website of the Union Latinoamericana de Scouts Independientes. I suspect that this org was founded after a scission in the Unión de Scouts Tradicionales de América, which is a member of the Order of World Scouts; both Chilean orgs and the Peruvian member were listed with USTA. --jergen (talk) 08:28, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

And there is also the Confederación Interamericana Scout Independiente claiming membership in ten countries. AFAIK, this was the first South American regional council of the WFIS which had at least two scissions in South America. --jergen (talk) 08:36, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Calvin Rustrum

I couldn't believe that this article didn't already exist so, after searching, I started it as a stub. One of those rare moments of a prominent topic not already covered. Not really a Scouting article, but he intersected a lot with the Scouts, and I've seen his books referred to in Scouts. Mentioned here in case anyone wants to join in the fun. Sincerely, North8000 16:53, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Collective CfM raised

Categories for discussion nomination of Category:Bronze Wolf awardees

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Category:Bronze Wolf awardees, which is under the purview of this WikiProject, has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you.