Wikipedia:Deletion review

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This page deals with the Deletion discussion process. For articles deleted via the "Proposed Deletion" ("PROD") process, or simple image undeletions, please post a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
"WP:DELREV" redirects here. For Revision Delete, see WP:REVDEL.

Administrator instructions

Deletion Review (DRV) is a forum designed primarily to appeal disputed speedy deletions and disputed decisions made as a result of deletion discussions; this includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.

If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.

Purpose[edit]

Shortcut:

Deletion Review may be used:

  1. if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
  2. if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
  3. if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;
  4. if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or
  5. if there was a substantive procedural error(s) in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.

Deletion Review should not be used:

  1. because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment;
  2. when you have not discussed the matter with the administrator who deleted the page/closed the discussion first, unless there is a substantial reason not to do this and you have explained the reason in your nomination;
  3. to point out other pages that have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
  4. to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
  5. to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
  6. to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
  7. to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests); or
  8. to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed).

Copyright violating, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content will not be restored.

Shortcut:

Instructions[edit]

Before listing a review request, please:

  1. discuss the matter with the closing administrator and try to resolve it with him or her first. If you and the admin cannot work out a satisfactory solution, only then should you bring the matter before Deletion review. See #Purpose.
  2. please check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Commenting in a deletion review[edit]

In the deletion review discussion, please:

  • Endorse the original closing decision; or
  • Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
  • List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
  • Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
  • Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.

Remember that Deletion Review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

Temporary undeletion[edit]

Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by non-admins. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews[edit]

A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented. If the administrator finds that there is no consensus in the deletion review, then in most cases this has the same effect as endorsing the decision being appealed. However, in some cases, it may be more appropriate to treat a finding of "no consensus" as equivalent to a "relist"; admins may use their discretion to determine which outcome is more appropriate. Deletion review discussions may also be extended by relisting them to the newest DRV log page, if the closing admin thinks that consensus may yet be achieved by more discussion.

Steps to list a new deletion review[edit]

 
1.

Before listing a review request please attempt to discuss the matter with the closing admin as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the admin the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision. If things don't work out, please note in the DRV listing that you first tried discussing the matter with the admin who deleted the page.

2.

Copy this template skeleton for most pages:

{{subst:drv2
|page=
|xfd_page=
|reason=
}} ~~~~

Copy this template skeleton for files:

{{subst:drv2
|page=
|xfd_page=
|article=
|reason=
}} ~~~~
3.

Follow this link to today's log and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the deleted page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the page should be undeleted. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example:

{{subst:drv2
|page=File:Foo.png
|xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png
|article=Foo
|reason=
}} ~~~~
4.

Inform the administrator who deleted the page by adding the following on their user talk page:

{{subst:DRVNote|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
5.

For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.

6.

Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion. Use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2014 September 21}}</noinclude>, if the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, and use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2014 September 21|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>, if the deletion discussion's subpage name is different than the deletion review's section header:

 


Active discussions[edit]

21 September 2014[edit]

Belle Knox[edit]

Belle Knox (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Speedy deleted as G4. WP:CSD#G4 states, "This excludes pages that are not substantially identical to the deleted version." The newer article is not substantially identical to the previous version, which was deleted after an AfD about six months ago. BLP1E was the primary reason for deletion; since then the person has been the subject of a biopic series that represents significant continuing and expanded coverage compared to what was available at the time of the previous AfD. Requesting that the speedy be overturned to allow a full discussion. VQuakr (talk) 03:32, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

...I was under the impression that you were going to open a DRV on the first AfD now that new sources have emerged? (hence my comments about it being a BLP and we should avoid recreating it until we are certain it is notable) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:41, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
@The ed17: I guess I do not understand why I would, but then again this is my first DRV creation so it is quite plausible that I do not understand the process. I agreed with the first AfD closure; I disagree with the second because it does not appear to be justified by any policy or guideline. What in WP:BLP mandates deletion of the article during a notability discussion? VQuakr (talk) 04:20, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
The reason why I told you to come here is right underneath the listed purposes of DRV: "if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page". Hence, reexamining the first AfD. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 04:36, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
WP:DRV is neither policy nor guideline. The relevant policy, linked above, makes it clear IMHO that the 2nd AfD was closed inappropriately. VQuakr (talk) 06:17, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Relist at AFD The above discussion isn't too inspiring. The nomination says it wasn't the same as the deleted, then goes on to make a general assertion that things have changed not giving any context as to how the article may have substantially changed as a result - one more source doesn't seem substantial to me. Similarly starting on the this isn't policy sort of arguments aren't usually a good sign of a reasonable discussion ahead. The question should surely be, what is the "best" way of resolving this? That said, since this documentary is currently airing having the article present for reevaluation now, would seem to be the best way of minimizing the overall exposure for the individual if the new AfD concludes on BLP1E also. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 08:05, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

20 September 2014[edit]

HMS Richmond helicopter crash[edit]

HMS Richmond helicopter crash (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

When I saw Hawkeye7 claiming that the article has "attracted sufficient coverage to write a substantial article about it, so on the face of it meets WP:GNG.", and then when I read his claim that "Per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS neither the existence nor the non-existence of similar articles is a factor", I'm afraid I only had conclusion - that he had, at best, just skimmed the debate and article, possibly taking the claims of the keepers regarding coverage and sources at simple face value. A detailed review would have surely seen the objections I had to these ideas, leading at the very least to some explanation as to how I was wrong. I had come to expect being ignored by some of the keepers, especially the ones who seemed to have little or no interest in either what the sources actually contained or the clear intent of rules like EVENT, but I don't expect to be seemingly ignored by the person tasked with making a ruling on the debate. My personal vanity aside, there's also the problem that he appears to be dodging the central issue here, whether or not EVENT is met, by effectively declaring it a 'draw' - an outcome which surely helps absolutely no-one at all, neither keepers or deleters. There were some pretty out there claims made in this debate which appeared to me to absolutely fly in the face of a common sense reading of EVENT/GNG (like the inquest issue), so they surely warrant addressing with a yes or no answer, for the benefit of everyone. Patrol forty (talk) 22:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Endorse - This is simply a rehash of the DRV nom's AfD arguments and their meta-discussion as to their own interpretation of WP:EVENT and WP:GNG (the DRV nom's arguments in the AfD used up more bytes than all of WP:NOTABILITY and WP:EVENT combined), which was way out of consensus in this case. Many users, particularly User:Mike Peel, very much addressed the DVR nom's interpretation and consensus was very much in agreement him. --Oakshade (talk) 23:23, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Oakshade is a keeper, so I hope his endorsement and claims of a rehash are ignored as being hopelessly biased. You've got a cheek even mentioning Mike though. I take great issue with what Mike has said, it is flawed, and like your own positions, ignores the contradictions between what you both seem to want Wikipedia to include, and what it actually does (so it can hardly be consensus). And I don't see where anyone agreed with him anyway; certainly if you did at the time, you kept awfully quiet. You had your opportunity to respond to my criticism of his first post, yet you apparently couldn't be bothered. Something about having a life. But I can at least now see that I wouldn't be wasting my time responding to Mike's second post (I didn't see it until after closure, otherwise I would have done). Unlike yourself, Mike is clearly someone who appreciates what a discussion actually is, and can treat people with respect even if he disagrees with them. The delay not withstanding, he has actually read what I wrote, and tailored a specific reply which leaves me in no doubt where he is coming from. He seems to appreciate exactly which parts of is argument come from the rules (without tediously copy-pasting it verbatim, as if the other person is an idiot), and which are closer to personal preference. I hope if he attempts to create articles for some of those other Lynx crashes, he'll get some perspective on how easy it is to write them when they do actually pass EVENT. Patrol forty (talk) 01:12, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse. The task of the person closing an AfD is not to make a 'ruling'. It is to assess where the consensus lies, in the context of applicable policies and guidelines. That task often requires discounting !votes that are policy-ignorant. But it does not mean deciding that one or more contributors to the debate have 'won' the argument. Here, the arguments for 'delete' were not so overwhelmingly strong, and the arguments for 'keep' were not so overwhelmingly weak, that a delete outcome was appropriate. Hawkeye7 carried out the task correctly. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:23, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Kiyoshi Shiina[edit]

Kiyoshi Shiina (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

Substantial updates to article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CrazyAces489/shiina CrazyAces489 (talk) 17:11, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

19 September 2014[edit]

Edmund F. Brennan[edit]

Edmund F. Brennan (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

This deletion appears rather clearly inappropriate. Brennan is a federal magistrate, and US magistrate judges are generally notable under WP:NPOL. A quick check of the Google cache[1] shows a reasonable stub, adequately sourced, with an inappropriate sentence tacked on about a third party, probably earlier this week. Rather than deleting the article entirely, the inappropriate text should have been removed, probably RevDel'd. The deleting admin, Carlossuarez46, refuses to correct this, saying on my talk page "some admin would probably ignore BLP for you". The existing text (aside from recent addition) appears to be an adequate and appropriate stub, but I can't cut-and-paste it from the Google cache without violating attribution requirements. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 22:32, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Note: while the above complains about notability - a Strawman argument - it was an attack page, and the source had nothing about the attack even in a NPOV manner and no version without the attack. Per WP:G10, "Articles about living people deleted under this criterion should not be restored or recreated by any editor until the biographical article standards are met." Have they been? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:37, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • It wasn't an attack page. It appears to have been a perfectly legitimate article (just look at the Google cache!) with two lines tacked on about a defendant on a case the magistrate was handling. Per WP:ATTACK, "If the subject of the article is notable, but the existing page consists primarily of attacks against the subject of the article, and there's no good revision to revert to, then the attack page should be deleted and an appropriate stub article should be written in its place." It looks like the offensive content was added earlier this week by User:Forthe1789usconstitution, who vandalized at least one related article, and could easily have been suppressed. There ought to be a "clean" version in the article history. Even in the less likely event that it was created including the offensive content, that could easily have been removed to create the "appropriate stub" that WP:ATTACK. which is policy, calls for. And that's why the subject's undisputed notabily is not a "strawman argument", because relevant policy calls for particular action based on it -- but you did something different. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 23:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
As should have been evident from my phrasing, I couldn't tell that. Nobody posted a notice in the creator's talk page, so I couldn't identify the creator. I don't have access to a deleted article's history. But, per WP:ATTACK, which is policy, the subject was clearly notable, and you should have created an "appropriate stub." By restoring the article and using RevDel to excise the attack -- which is on a third party, not the article subject -- policy would be satisfied. I don't have the tools to do that directly, and can't cut-and-paste from the Google cache without violating attribution requirements. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 00:28, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Are federal magistrates really notable? Is this one notabl? I get that WP:NPOL says judges who hold nation-wide or state-wide offices are presumed notable, but magistrates are a long way down the judicial food chain. There are over 500 in the US. I'm not seeing any significant coverage in reliable sources: just his brief dot-point official bio on the court website, and a range of newspaper articles that mention him, incidentally, as the magistrate handing down such-and-such an interlocutory order. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I think we have not in the few instances I recmember held them automatically notable (as contrasted to US District Court judges and higher). DGG ( talk ) 03:40, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • (I moved this here from a posting in the wrong section-DGG) Good evening. Why was my posting for Judge Edmund F. Brennan deleted? What was the offense or problem? The man is a setting Judge for a U.S. Federal Court System, has been so since 2006, and has been with the Department of Justice since 1988. In public service since 1974. Its a legitimate posting. And facts that I grabbed directly from his bio. Additionally he set free a person of interest in a California case, that I am interested in that is related to, "Operation Broken Trust" a federal ponzi scheme investigation ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Forthe1789usconstitution (talkcontribs) 00:18, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Considering this and his mistaken views on a number of policies and guidelines (based on his statements in a number of the 51 AfDs he recently filed within two days), I'm shocked that Carlossuarez46 has the mop. WP:ATTACK doesn't say -- and never has -- that nothing disparaging can ever be said about a subject or anyone else in the article; it simply stipulates that negative statements must be adequately sourced and should not be of undue weight within the article. It is, unfortunately, no surprise to me that rather than taking the two seconds necessary to remove the inappropriate text, Carlossuarez46's response was to delete the article altogether. Ravenswing 08:22, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn the article was not at all close to being a G10 candidate. Most of it was a bland summary of the subject's career, referenced to [2]. The only sentence which was at all objectionable was one which said the subject was involved in legal proceedings related to a certain named criminal. Without a source that was indeed a BLP violation but it was hardly justification for deleting the page. Removing that one sentence (and using revdel if deemed necessary) would have been enough. An attack page is a page "that exists primarily to disparage or threaten its subject; or biographical material which is entirely negative in tone and unsourced". Since the article didn't say anything negative about the subject, didn't threaten the subject, wasn't entirely (or even mostly) negative in tone and wasn't unsourced it was not an attack page and deletion on these grounds was not appropriate. Hut 8.5 09:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted. I can't endorse the G10, for all the very good reasons given above. But, having pondered my question (posed above) further, and made a fairly exhaustive search for reliable sources, I don't think there is any reasonable prospect of the subject meeting our notability guidelines. It takes an overly literal reading of WP:NPOL to suggest that a lowly federal magistrate -- one of over 500 -- is notable. They are the US equivalent of registrars, who carry out the administrative functions of a court and exercise fairly narrow judicial functions delegated to them by judges. But, much more importantly, WP:NPOL aside, the significant coverage in reliable sources just isn't there. Nowhere near it, in fact. All we seem to have from his eight-year judicial career (aside from his dot-point official bio, which isn't independent) is the occasional mention, in coverage of a particular criminal case, that the subject issued a particular order like denying bail (eg [3] and [4]). No-one has written anything about Mr Brennan: who he is, what his judicial philosophy is, etc. So nor should we. Now, I'm normally loathe to turn DRV into a quasi-AfD like this. But I think it is such a clear-cut case for non-notability that we shouldn't be going through the bureaucratic hoops of restoring the article then going through an AfD.--Mkativerata (talk) 09:22, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Sutton twin towns mural[edit]

Sutton twin towns mural (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I am aware that the votecount in the above discussion is quite clear. However, according to me and the lone person who shared my view, most of the keeps were based on reasons that were either not policy- or guideline-based, or were votes where the policy or guideline had no relation to what was in the article. I have tried to raise my concerns with the closing admin at User talk:Philg88#Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sutton twin towns mural, but he clearly has no interest in giving any further explanation than "it was a strong consensus". To me, it looks as if the closing admin did nothing but a quick votecount, which goes against the Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators (see his statement about "the will of the community"). I argue that if one follows the definition given there of "rough consensus", especially the part reading "Consensus is not determined by counting heads, but by looking at strength of argument, and underlying policy (if any). Arguments that contradict policy, are based on opinion rather than fact, or are logically fallacious, are frequently discounted." was applicable here, and that the closing admin has not followed this definition (and surely has refused to adequately explain his closure). So, despite the clear votecount, I ask for this AfD to be reopened and to let another admin decide the outcome based this time on an actual determination of rough consensus instead of a votecount. The actual debate about the validity of arguments can be found at the AfD, no need to rehash it in this nomination. Fram (talk) 09:58, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

*Do not overturn keep* I notice that most of the "keeps" in the AFD cited WP:PERSISTENCE, which I must admit is actually about persistent coverage in media over a period of time, rather than persistence of a graffiti mural for over 20 years. However, I believe that the !voters actually meant to say that, if a supposedly temporary artwork is actually preserved over such a long period of time, and is praised by its local council, then it is notable enough for an article. (And they just assumed that WP:PERSISTENCE actually said this.) In this particular instance, I agree with them. I am quite sure that this unusual street art would have been mentioned in press over the last 20 years - it is just that most of these mentions are not available online. There is the possibility of merger with Sutton High Street; however, I feel that the street art is genuinely notable, whereas the High Street itself may not pass the notability threshold. Bluap (talk) 13:08, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
There is no evidence that the mural was supposed to be temporary, this is not some illegal graffiti that suddenly gets accepted but a project that was either condoned or supported by the council from the start (most schools don't encourage their school children to participate in illegal street art). Not every work of art in public spaces is notable, no matter how long it stays. Most cities are filled with sculptures with little to no notability, next to some works of art with lots of notability of course. Fram (talk) 13:26, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm not clear at the moment what the policy (sic) issues are though I see allusions such as "let's twist policy beyond recognition", "arguments that contradict policy". This is important (to me anyway) because of what it says in WP:Deletion guidelines for administrators "a local consensus can suspend a guideline in a particular case where suspension is in the encyclopedia's best interests, but this should be no more common in deletion than in any other area". Is there a reason why this would clearly be improper in the present case? Also, we seem to be lacking any policy-based (or guideline-based) reason against redirection or merging, particularly in the light of "Delete All this mural needs is a mention in Sutton High Street" in the AFD discussion. Thincat (talk) 17:50, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
    • The policy reasons are that PERSISTENCE is not applied correctly (we have three sources, spanning two days), NOTABILITY (guideline) isn't applied correctly (we have one local rewrite of the press release, printed identical in two local (versions of) papers, and one reprint of the press release in a local advert paper, so nothing beyond routine, local, one-off coverage), and arguments like "it's the summer of monuments" are completely beyond the pale (apparently the AfD should have waited until the summer was over?). The reverse objection which you raise here, that no good arguments have been made against redirection, has merit, but redirection wasn't really discussed anyway. As a compromise, it would probably have been acceptable, but both sides were rather entrenched. And of course, the DRV only focuses on whether the closing admin has correctly applied the guide for closing admins, which is impossible to determine from his closure or subsequent responses, and for which there are counterarguments (in my view, how convincing others find them is not up to me). Fram (talk) 18:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse as within the closer's discretion. I doubt I'd have voted this way myself, but there's no content violating any significant content policy and no clear reason to reject the expressed consensus. It's not a BLP, where stricter review could be appropriate. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 18:09, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Relist. Misinterpretation of policy in the arguments, accepted with out comment by the closer. The votecount is irrelevant, since most of the !votes were basically "everything is notable". Whether or not that actually means that in this case "I like it", Closers are expected to disregard such reasons. Of course, we can simply have a new afd. DGG ( talk ) 03:51, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Relist or simply start over again with a new AfD. I don't mind. These rare cases where one side of an AfD clearly has the numbers, but the other side clearly has the arguments, do put the closer in a difficult position. I think this case was a failure of the whole AfD process and it should be referred back to AfD for another go. That's a safer course than overturning to "delete". I'll have my !vote there. --Mkativerata (talk) 04:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn to "No Consensus". I'd be fine with a relist but I think that it is worthwhile to note that the close and not only the debate was problematic. WP:PERSISTENCE does not apply by it's terms and Carptrash's comment is a non-argument. Excluding those, the other Keeps are weak, but not in my view invalid. That leaves a couple of reasonably strong, policy based deletes and some week keeps. I think Bencherlite's suggestion of coverage in a wider context is a good idea, but whether that means merging, redirecting, or even deleting this article is a question to be decided at AfD rather than here. Eluchil404 (talk) 03:32, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

18 September 2014[edit]

Overt-Kill[edit]

Overt-Kill (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Despite a consensus of 5 Keeps vs 2 Deletes, closing admin went against consensus. Closing admin feels that the keeps were "I like it", when maybe one could be read that way, the others speak to the sourcing. Ignored is the fact that the 2 deletes cited "no sources" before sourcing was added. I'm not one to canvass so I thought the piece would stand on its own merits. How can an !vote for delete for lack of sources be valid when there are sources any more than an alleged "keep it because I like it"? Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:08, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Comment: I stand by the closing rationale given. In addition, I copy from my talk page: "I had a look again at the AfD debate, the article, and the sources and [...] I stand by my decision [...]. Please note that AfD is not a vote (which is why we call opinions "!votes" and not "votes"...). The closing admin has to evaluate the opinions expressed in the light of policy. In the current case, only one of the keep !votes was policy based, the others just said "I know it" or "I like it" or something similar. The sources were trivial mentions (or even did not discuss the character at all) and none of them provided any out-of-universe notability." --Randykitty (talk) 14:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment unless you looked at a completely different article or someone deleted everything I added just prior to your decision, those sources were not "in universe". 2 involved the 2 different lawsuits over ownership/copyright, one involved an action figure, two spoke to the creation of the character at the behest of Stan Lee on a cable TV show and one mentioned the character's appearance on HBO and the ctor who provided the voice. I'm not doing this to upset your 90% close as delete rate, I honestly feel this one was a mistake.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 14:30, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Without seeing the content it's difficult to tell, my leaning at this point would be towards delete, given the things like the bizarre keep suggesting that wikipedia policy shouldn't be a factor in keeping or deleting. A brief look for some of the sources mentioned didn't reveal much for me (though it wasn't extensive). Can this be temp restored?--86.2.216.5 (talk) 18:44, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Done. —Cryptic 19:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
      • Endorse of the sources added since the AFD began we have a passing mention in the washington times, a reference to comics where the character appears (primary, non-independent sources), reference to where the character was created (again primary, non-independent) and the ref to "African Americans and Popular Culture" which I don't have access to the page referenced, though given the material in the pages I can access I'd be surprised if there was a lot of depth to it. This seems to me that these new sources were unlikely to change the minds of those who already commented, since they still seem to fail to be non-trivial or 3rd party. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 18:40, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse The closer correctly summarized the appropriate weight given to the arguments presented. --j⚛e deckertalk 21:24, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse the closer was entirely justified in giving little or no weight to arguments such as "I've heard of it", "this one is popularity and good" and a bizarre exhortation not to cite policies in comments. AfDs are not votes and the raw count of people on each side (which the OP has got wrong anyway) makes little difference. Hut 8.5 22:09, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment I read the first half of that policy one as sarcasm and he goes on to state that the sources are reliable. But you guys will do what you want, I just thought the closure was incorrect. Even if you throw out the ESA "popularity" one and ironically throw out mine (admittedly I was frustrated by the nominator, but his behavior is not the subject here) it still comes out to 3-3 which should be no consensus. I guess the message I'm taking from this is to canvass after improving an article to change people's minds. Thanks for clearing that up.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • That comment didn't strike me as sarcastic at all. It does seem that the editor thought that personal opinions should trump arguments based on policies, which isn't going to get very far in an AfD. And the comment doesn't go on to say the sources are reliable, it goes on to say that "I have seen various sources online although probably not as many as the nominator wants", which isn't the same thing at all. Your 3-3 count is including one of "this one is popularity and good" and "appears to have enough information to be notable" as a valid argument and again AfDs aren't closed on raw numbers, even after discarding invalid arguments. Hut 8.5 06:54, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
So two votes saying "No sources" before the article has sources carries more weight than that? Whatever dude.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 07:25, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Weak endorse - not particularly strong arguments from either side and the admin did what he could. I suppose it could have been re-listed but the conspiratorial comment at the end was probably enough to discourage further and wider community input. At the end of the day, the "delete" contributions were weaker including some outright bizarre comments like the suggestion that "keep" opinions amounted to "constantly quoting Wikipedia acronyms" when, by that point, not a single WP acronym had been linked. Stlwart111 08:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse. The community expects that its notability guidelines get followed. There is always room for interpretation about how to apply those guidelines, and there is even room to create exceptions to them in individual cases. But because the community expects that guidelines generally be followed, administrators are not only entitled, but in my view required, to give less weight to contributions that are plainly at odds with the guidelines or give no reasons for creating exceptions to them. The closing admin acted in accordance with this principle here, and the outcome was accordingly correct. With bonus points for picking up the redirect option that no-one else identified. Just one thought -- and this is not intended as a criticism of the closing admin -- perhaps had the admin instead weighed in with a very strong and compelling delete !vote, another admin would have come along and closed it as delete. Then, in light of that concluding strong and compelling delete !vote, the chance of the AfD ending up here might have been a bit lower. Or maybe not. Just a thought. --Mkativerata (talk) 09:02, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse AFD closers aren't just encouraged to weigh the given arguments, they're actually required to, and given the incredibly poor arguments on display from the Keep side, the closing admin really had no choice. They ran the gamut from very poor ("I've heard of this character") to bizarre and nonsensical (a comment that people's comments shouldn't be based on policy) to absolutely pants-on-head WTF bizarre and nonsensical ("Keep this one is popularity and good" -no, really, it says that). A dozen, a thousand, or a million more comments of equal quality would still not have carried the debate. Since the level of discourse hasn't exactly risen in this DRV ("Whatever dude."), there's really not a lot to discuss. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 18:32, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse, not the best set of arguments ever presented in an AFD, but an admin has to work with what they get. None of the arguments were great but most of the Keep ones were especially feeble, so the close is reasonable to my eyes. Lankiveil (speak to me) 01:24, 21 September 2014 (UTC).
  • Endorse close and yet restore an earlier sourced version. Ignoring the keep arguments, and closer's discretion aside, the article was sourced and appears to show suitable notability for a fictional element... IE: sourcing speaking toward the topic need not be solely about the topic. Schmidt, Michael Q. 05:28, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Susan Lindauer[edit]

Susan Lindauer (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Deleted based on arguments such as "fails notability as a person. Also smells of WP:promo for her book" and BLP1E for her trial. Her references span over 10 years from her trip to Iraq, her incarceration, to her antiwar activity, to her book. She has a full profile in the New York Times Magazine that runs 5 pages. There are four references to her in the current Google News. There is no BLP1E for her trial, there was no trial, at an administrative hearing she was found incompetent to stand trial. That people are using the article to push their point of view about her, should not be a reason to delete. Every current president has that problem with their article. She seems to have become a symbol for conspiracy theories, and readers need a fact based biography of her. Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 14:05, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Endorse- DRV is not a venue to re-argue the AfD, which is all this nomination is doing. There is no indication that the closing admin has judged consensus wrongly. As it happens, I think the closer judged consensus correctly. Reyk YO! 06:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn. This is a closer case than I'd expected, and ordinarily someone whose reported criminal conduct is attributed to mental illness shouldn't be singled out for an article here. But this subject was given extensive, high-visibility coverage, including repeated coverage by the New York Times including a full-length profile, and there appear to be a significant number of examples of coverage in sources turned up via GBooks (discounting conspiracy theory claptrap). I don't believe the closer properly measured the invocations of BLP1E and PERP against the actual policies (admittedly a more difficult task than usual here); they're a bad fit when there's no article on the purported crime/event, and the person has been so substantively covered in national media (not merely wire service pickups of local news). The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 18:26, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn / Consider Relisting The AfD was a farce on both sides, with apparent sockpuppets supporting retention and brain-dead ignorance of dozens of reliable and verifiable sources combined with misinterpretation of BLP1E on the deletion side. A search of The New York Times (see here) turns up more than a dozen sources about the subject that clearly demonstrate notability, including an extremely lengthy article about the subject in the Sunday Magazine, all of which was ignored and unmentioned by the closing administrator, let alone the hundreds of other available sources. Even ignoring her own book, which is hardly typical of someone seeking to remain under the radar, this Google Books search turns up more than a dozen mentions in other books. This is someone who clearly meets WP:N and the keeps, deletes and closing administrator all seemed to fail here in their own unique way. Alansohn (talk) 19:13, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse as closer. Thanks first to User:Mkativerata who took the trouble to notify me of this discussion when the original nominator did not.
I acknowledge that this was a difficult discussion to close (in fact, it was several days overdue, perhaps because other admins didn't want to touch it with the proverbial 20 foot pole), largely due to a number of SPAs gracing us with their presence. I found the rationale advanced by User:TheRedPenOfDoom and User:Tgeairn to be the most convincing offered. Filtering out keep arguments that were basically WP:ILIKEIT, WP:ITSNOTABLE and the like, there were also two editors that made a decent go of making a policy based argument. One seemed to argue that Lindauer was a high-profile individual and thus WP:BLP1E did not apply, but I found this unpersuasive and the argument did not appear to gain much traction with the other participants. Another suggested that while a biography might not be appropriate, an article on the event itself might pass muster. I have no opinion on that, but we were dealing with a biography, not an article on an event.
This DRV seems to be introducing new information to the case, but obviously I was not able to consider arguments that had not been made. The proper time to make them would have been when the article was at AFD. In any case, I don't see anything particularly compelling that would indicate that this is anything other than a case of WP:ONEEVENT or that the article should be undeleted. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC).
  • endorse the NYT "profile" is of a perp before her trial which is about her trip to Iraq about which her case was dismissed-BLP1E. her book is self published and primarily mentioned in other self published conspiracy theory propaganda -no significant coverage in reliable sources. there was no misreading of BLP1E by the closer, even with the "newly introduced " evidence. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:07, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
The search " 'Susan Lindauer' Extreme Prejudice" gives 705 results in GBooks, that is a high impact for a self published book. None of the three criteria for BLP1E are met in this case. 1. She is still in the news over 10 years later, and the events consists of her trip, incarceration, and the continuing mentions in the news as an example of medicating a person against their will to make them competent to stand trial, and her continuing antiwar activity. 2. she is not a private person by publishing a biography. 3. A full profile in the NY Times is about her, as much as the events that put her in the news. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:32, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

17 September 2014[edit]

16 September 2014[edit]

National Socialist Japanese Workers and Welfare Party[edit]

National Socialist Japanese Workers and Welfare Party (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Article was deleted for non-notability in 2009, citing a lack of coverage by secondary sources. The party has been mentioned in recent news articles, such as Neo-Nazi photos pose headache for Shinzo Abe, and the party has Japanese, Spanish, Finnish, Italian, Korean, Serbian and Swedish language Wikipedia articles. Andrew Grimm (talk) 11:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Endorse party is mentioned only briefly in the linked article, tangentally mentioned in relation to a photo controversy involving a notable person who is NOT a member of the party in question. Does not even come close to constituting substantial coverage in reliable sources with which to overturn the discussion or to base a new article. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse notability is not mentions, it's significant coverage. Coverage by user contribution based sources (e.g. other wikis even if hosted by the wikimedia foundation) is not usable as a reliable source. Particularly between wikipedia projects that should be true, otherwise it would merely be a case of rush to dump something on a few wikis and they all suddenly become obliged to keep it since it's on the other projects, what a self sustaining pile of junk that could allow. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 18:03, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse. Recreation or restoration could only be permitted if there were sources providing significant coverage of the party, per WP:GNG. Significant coverage, according to WP:GNG, means coverage in detail, not passing mentions of the party in controversies concerning non-party government ministers. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:32, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse This request feels more like a request for an AfD2, the close appears appropriate. Separately, I suspect the result is correct, per Mkativerata. --j⚛e deckertalk 21:29, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

15 September 2014[edit]

Mersin International Music Festival[edit]

Mersin International Music Festival (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Mersin International Music Festival has been speedy deleted with the creteria A7 (non notable). But the borderline between notable is and non notable is vague and the non notability depends on the deleter's opinion only. The 10 day annual festival, a member of European Festivals Association (EFA) ([5]) is an important event in the city of 900,000 population. How can such an event be considered non notable in an 4,5 million article- encyclopaedia? The article should be restored. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:09, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Endorse per lack of sensical reasoning. The nominator is apparently suggesting that the event somehow must be notable because it takes place in a city with a large-ish population. I don't even know where to start pointing out just how nonsensical that is, so I'll just link to WP:NOTINHERITED instead. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 18:54, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn, list at AFD if you must. Article (still visible in Google cache) included credible indicators of significance, which is a lower standard than notability. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 19:41, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn, the bar for A7 is not "was it notable", A7 sets a much lower bar, and the article makes credible claims of significance. I wouldn't mind seeing an AfD on this, though, it may very well not be notable, but it is does appear to be beyond an A7. --j⚛e deckertalk 21:33, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn, and preferably with no AfD. This seems plainly notable, to me. There is significant coverage from Turkey's major newspapers ([6], [7], [8]). The festival has also attracted significant musicians (eg Fazil Say, Tania Maria). --Mkativerata (talk) 05:08, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn, clearly not a valid A7 as there is a credible claim of significance (not to mention significant news coverage, as pointed out above). Lankiveil (speak to me) 07:37, 21 September 2014 (UTC).

14 September 2014[edit]


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