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because they saw him bleeding. if that was from the shot or something else is unknown. the SS hasn't confirmed anything besides the fact that he's safe Problem$0lved (talk) 23:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
CNBC commented on the video they released, saying: "Former Pres. Trump could be seen on video contracting his body to the right, clutching his ear and dropping to the ground. What appeared to be blood could be seen on the former president's right ear." However, there has been no official statement released anywhere stating any facts. I'm sure there will be at some point, but until then it's best to leave it out. Maineartists (talk) 00:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Title
"Shooting" might be taken to imply that the attack was fatal. I propose moving to "2024 Donald Trump assassination attempt". Mårtensås (talk) 22:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, but I am not even sure "shooting" is appropriate at this point: none of the reliable sources state that unequivocally. Dumuzid (talk) 22:56, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As of right now, the page title should stay as is, but I agree that the name could be changed to something more informational. Silaaaaaa (talk) 23:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Shooting" could also imply that it was a mass shooting so I think your title is better, though I do also think we should wait before moving in case it's labeled something else. Articles about mass shootings simply say "shooting" in their title. As it stands I believe both CNN and Fox report that there were multiple shots fired but only Donald Trump and one bystander are confirmed to be struck but both still alive and receiving urgent care. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. LegendoftheGoldenAges85 of the East (talk | worse talk) 23:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mårtensås I'm not sure how "shooting" implies it was fatal. Shots were fired; it is a shooting. "Shooting of Donald Trump" would be the best title in my opinion as the media is most commonly referring to this as a shooting. Cobblebricks (talk) 23:59, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree. We do not yet know if this was an assassination attempt, much less if Trump was the actual target. It certainly seems likely, but the shooter may have, for example, been trying to kill someone else. Or he may have been trying to just wound Trump, rather than kill him. Stick with reliable information for now. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 23:49, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. It is candidly absurd to suggest that the target wasn't Trump and that the bullet that seemingly struck his ear was intended merely to harm. This was clearly an assassination attempt. -- justdweezil (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please let's not turn the article into a reaction farm
I think we should only include reactions if they're notable. Random expressions of sympathy will unnecessarily bloat the Reactions section. Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:01, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As per usual, I think it's worthwhile to have Biden and Shapiro's reactions. Other reactions can be added if they prove to be meaningful (i.e. if a politician starts a conspiracy that gets popular) Ornov Ganguly (talk) 23:05, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would it be best to remove the section on X users too? I feel like it's a bit redundant and way too vague of a statement, all things considered. Anjellies (talk) 23:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this analysis. I think political leaders from the area and in the relevant federal arena may be appropriate. A random businessperson of any persuasion is inappropriate. Zkidwiki (talk) 23:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Elon Musk was added back, but we can discuss here whether to keep it. I also believe Gallego might be unnessisary. He's just a random member from Arizona and I anticipate many, many members of congress on both sides of the aisle addressing this. And Governors will too, so to that extent I don't know if Whitmer's needed. Jcoolbro (talk) (c)23:21, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Musk is unnecessary unless he mobilises something major in support of Trump. As it stands, he just sent a Tweet. NYT reporting does not lend it newsworthiness because they're slapping everything on a live feed right now. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 23:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barring new additions aside from those four officials is a bit odd, particularly since Whitmer is not the governor of the relevant state and is not a federal official. I don't think there is a rational basis for including only those four and, say, excluding Barack Obama and George W. Bush from the list. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)00:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was trying to avoid being accused of ownership. I think that former presidents are still questionably important here. We can squish them all into "former presidents and politicians" once we get a full picture. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 00:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am suggesting we follow the Attack on Paul Pelosi's reaction page. Start at the President, mention the VP's reaction, local governor and mayors' reactions, and then in a few weeks or months we can discuss the general rabble/politicians' reactions. Ornov Ganguly (talk) 23:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Came here to say the same thing. Unless the reaction actually has a significant effect as described in reliable sources, they're trivia and there is no reason to include them. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Heavy prune. It can be trimmed to one sentence, "The shooting was universally condemned by politicians from both the Republican and Democratic parties." Abductive (reasoning)00:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.
I'm not going to go with any "wait" ideas, given an administrator moved it away from that title with 0 discussion. It was the title prior to administrator protection, and a single person determined the current name. Nah, a discussion needs to happen. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page)23:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support a move to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump since none of the other assassination attempts against him (such as the ricin one) were nearly as notable as this one. Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:06, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SimplyLouis27:WP:VNT. Do you have proof/sources that it was not confirmed or is not the common term? I listed 8 sources above using it. Sorry, but SNOWCLOSE isn't a valid thing for this, with a "not confirmed" reasoning because Wikipedia doesn't care about what is or isn't confirmed. Only what is verifiable, which "attempted assassination" is as presented above. If you wish to oppose, you can, but please provide a valid oppose reasoning via Wikipedia's policy. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page)23:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and wait, we still do not know the motive of the perpetrator(s), It's possible it was not the goal to harm Trump but simply shoot at the rally. There is more information we should wait for. I believe we can move when it is confirmed an assassination was the goal. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:19, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying this with no disrespect, but you are either as blind as a bat or just being really ignorant. There is 8 RS listed in the proposal saying it was an assassination attempt. Since this is now the 2nd time your mentioned RS not using it, I'm specifically calling out the 8 sources above. If you still say RS as an oppose reasoning, take all eight sources to WP:RSN to get a consensus on their reliability. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page)23:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, most of those are not RS, or should not be taken as RS on such matters when well-established political and national news media are not saying something. The rest are just repeating verbatim what the first lot said. But they're just hyperbolic for clicks, because until there is intelligence about the situation, it cannot be said conclusively, and no RS worth its salt is going to effectively influence the immediate intelligence-gathering by putting such a statement out there. Kingsif (talk) 23:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the sources you listed aren't exactly well known media organisations. For example, the BBC make not mention of this being a assassination attempt. [9]. Also, please don't call other editors ignorant its quite rude and condescending. SimplyLouis27 (talk) 23:37, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait: It was pretty clearly an assassination attempt; however, I'm willing to wait for more reliable sources describing it as such. No objections, either, to calling it "2024 shooting of Donald Trump", or something simple in that respect; I strongly dislike the current name, which is wordy and falls flat on encyclopedic guidelines. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤)23:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support His ear was literally shot, and the shooter was clearly aiming for his head. Had the shooter succeeded and killed him it would have been referred to as an assassination. PlanetDeadwing (talk) 23:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support for now, but we should wait. Almost every media source I can find explores the potential of "assassination attempt", even if they also refer to it as a shooting; though there is as of yet no official classification. Let's wait—but given current information, support is the way to go. LegendoftheGoldenAges85 of the East (talk | worse talk) 23:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait There are no official versions yet whether Trump was the main target of the assassination attempt or not, but it is obvious that he was. I suggest waiting for the official version of law enforcement agencies about whether Trump was the main target, and if they confirm that he was, then change the page name. PLATEL (talk) 23:32, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait. We are getting to a point where the media will say this is attempted, but I think there we should wait. However, shouldn't this be like "Assassination Attempt of Donald Trump" (omitting the year, to be in line with Reagan's article) 49p (talk) 23:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah that's what I meant to say. Year won't be relevant to the article's title unless something changes in the near future. 49p (talk) 23:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait: It was pretty clearly an assassination attempt; according to sources i read, multiple shoots being witnessed. let's wait for now and not rush things up till things get a bit cleared out. —— 🌸 Sakura emad 💖 (talk) 23:36, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support — WP:BLUE. Barring any issues with the title, the Butler attorney general has confirmed gunfire and everything hints at it to be a politically-motivated assassinatiion attempt. Luunarr (talk) 23:38, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, and oppose anything speedy No major media outlet (the proposal sources are dubious for political matters at best, some outright trash) is saying so, because they cannot confirm it, because police intelligence (while this is major and they will be working quickly) will not have yet told them so. The reason why no solid RS is running with "looks pretty obvious" is to not interfere, and Wikipedia absolutely does not lead the way on describing such incidents, especially if it would be applying a criminal motive that has not been reported by police yet. Kingsif (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - we don't know who the target was. We've got years to change it. There's other issues with the title ... 2024? Have there been others? Was it a rally or a campaign event? Nfitz (talk) 23:42, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support "Shooting of Donald Trump", pending further announcements of motive. The article title can be improved even before a motive is released, and the fact that Trump was shot appears to be the single most notable thing here. We don't need to circumlocute to "2024 shooting at a Donald Trump rally" pending future announcements when we can make an incremental change to benefit the page. Status quo is not good enough, and also is not the sort of thing that we should default to in a WP:NOCON close, since the original page title was at 2024 attempted assassination of Donald Trump. If we do get motive, then I would support Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, since we don't need the year and it's better grammar-wise. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)23:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait. We should make sure we have the fine details worked out before. There has been reports by reputable news sources about this topic, but there's definitely still some ambiguity that needs settling. 𝙰𝙶𝚛𝚎𝚊𝚝𝚄𝚜𝚎𝚛𝚗𝚊𝚖𝚎𝙲𝚑𝚘𝚒𝚌𝚎 (ramble)23:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support - It seems fairly clear that this was an assassination attempt, with some RS exploring the idea. We likely won't officially know until down the line, however, this should be moved back to its original title. A "shooting" understates the importance/severity of an assassination attempt, especially during an election cycle. 30Four (talk) 23:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note AP is now reporting that the Secret Service is investigating this as an attempted assassination (source). Unless there's a good reason not to, I'm going to unilaterally implement this move in about 10 minutes (since that seems to have rough consensus and be supported by RSes). Please let me know below if there is a good reason not to. —Ganesha811 (talk) 23:54, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment - Unilaterally is the wrong word to have used, but consensus is becoming pretty clear here in this RM. I don't see the point in Wikipedia's article title being vague and imprecise. If (and there's about a 0.1% chance at this point) this turns out to have been something *other* than an attempted assassination of Donald Trump, the article can always be moved back. —Ganesha811 (talk) 00:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to get this dragged into a process discussion, so I won't be making any move myself. However, I do support the proposed move. —Ganesha811 (talk) 00:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, because we don't know the motives of the perpetrator. We can't find out directly from the perpetrator because they're dead, but I imagine the Secret Service will find out what their motives were one way or the other. As I'm typing this, someone noted that the Secret Service is investigating this as an assassination attempt, so thanks in advance for that note. Ultimately, we'll have to see what they conclude. Unknown0124 (talk) 00:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't mean we should exacerbate the problem with renaming the article based largely on original research/editors opinions on the event. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, I wouldn't say delete it but I see where they're coming from. It's a current event article about something so current we don't really know what's happen(ed/ing). If the very basis of the event's notability cannot be definitely said (i.e. is the event "someone tried to shoot Trump" or "someone tried to wreak havoc at Trump rally" or unlikely but possibly "Trump fan discharged gun in crowd at rally, oops") then it'd be hard to get it through AfC, for example. Kingsif (talk) 00:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is obviously not a WP:G10. In what way is this page designed to disparage, threaten, intimidate, or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose? — Red-tailed hawk(nest)00:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait It is way too early to be discussing this, the current title of the article is fine. Until an official statement about what just happened comes out from a major official source confirming what possible motive was involved here. (Major official source being something like: President's office, District Attoerey, US Secret Service, FBI, CIA) BlunanNation (talk) 00:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait Obviously an assassination attempt, but I think we should wait for some more clarification before we can make a decision to change the title. Indiana6724 (talk) 00:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The attempted assassination of President Reagan is described as such, even though it did not result in his death but did result in the death of another; this is no different. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support Any logical mind assumes that firing bullets at someone is an attempt at their life, as a political figure it is entirely fair to assume a shooting at them at a political event is an assassination attempt.★Trekker (talk) 00:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This was clearly an attempt to take his life and this will likely lead to him being a martyr which could have election impacts. AlienChex (talk) 00:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait.' - We don't know what the shooter's motives were yet. It seems likely that it was an assassination attempt but it has not yet been confirmed. Shooting is neutral until authorities determine it was an assassination attempt. We should, however, add that this is being investigated as a potential assassination attempt in the lede. Titanium Dragon (talk) 00:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It was clearly an attempt to wound and or seriously injure him. This is going to have major implications for the 2024 election. It is being investigated as an assassination attempt and the White House is making a statement related to the event. Potomokbelogobarsa (talk) 00:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now as WP:V is not met, in spite of what all of these support comments think. There is a great likelihood this was an assassination attempt, but for all we know some yahoo started firing a gun into the air and some shrapnel nicked Trump. We need to wait for the results of the ongoing investigation and mind WP:BREAKING. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support for reasons of common sense as stated above. Regardless, title should be changed in line with WP:NCWWW as the current one is very unwieldly. "2024 Donald Trump rally shooting" would be more appropriate. CompassNNE (talk) 00:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose it is WP:TOOSOON to determine if it was an attempted assassination or not. We should absolutely not attempt to gun on this and frankly, the article was created too early as it is.}} Downerr2937 (talk) 00:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. Although I do not deny that Trump was purposefully targeted, we are not even sure quite yet what the downed shooter's motive was. Let's wait for the investigation to turn up any further information. FreeMediaKid$00:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait. I say it's highly likely it was an assassination attempt, but it's also possible that it was a random shooting with no political or religious motives, which doesn't constitute an assassination per its definition: murder (an important person) in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons. It might be better to wait until a motive for the suspect has been found. SilentExplorer (talk) 00:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In his testimonies and letters, Yamagami claimed that he was driven by a grudge against the Unification Church for ruining his family. Even though he originally planned to target Hak Ja Han, then president of the church, he was unable to approach her, so he switched to Shinzo Abe, whom he believed was "one of the most influential sympathisers" of the church.SilentExplorer (talk) 00:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
AP saying they have been told it is being investigated as such =/= AP saying it is such. We have to wait for the latter, whatever editors think is obvious. Kingsif (talk) 00:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support This was a clear cut assassination attempt. As someone else stated above, this was clearly an attempt to take his life and people usually shoot to kill their target. Anthonyd33331 (talk) 00:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy support @ everyone going ermmmm we don't know the motive of the shooter, actually 🤓 There is no reason for an audience member to fire a gun at a politician unless it is to assassinate them. Enough chicanery. Kodiak Blackjack (talk) • (contribs)00:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is your English this poor? The use of apparent implies a lack of decisiveness. ' : manifest to the senses or mind as real or true on the basis of evidence that may or may not be factually valid ' From your own source. Traumnovelle (talk) 00:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Sources have yet to identify it as an assassination attempt. "Shooting" is the predominant, even accounting for geographic and political bias, e.g. NYT: "Trump ‘Safe’ After Shooting at Rally", Fox News: "Former President Clinton condemns shooting at Trump rally", The Guardian: "Trump rally shooting being investigated". "Support but wait" is a meaningless distinction here, as we don't have crystal balls and don't know that will definitely be the language this turns out on. Sure, I'd put money on it, but this is an encyclopedia, we wait for reliable reporting. Dylnuge(Talk • Edits)00:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The existing title is factual and accurate. Whether it was an assassination attempt is speculation, which Wikipedia should not do. The cited news reports couch things in terms like suspected, alleged, or possible. Unless and until what happened is investigated and confirmed by a formal investigation by competent authorities, and even then, the existing title is fine. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
are you seriously arguing someone went onto a roof overlooking a trump rally with a rifle and it was some sort of accidental misfire and that he wasn't trying to assassinate him? Scu ba (talk) 00:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Currently there's no source on the number of victims (other than Donald Trump), despite it saying that there are two victims (one of which being Donald) and one death PikaCookies (talk) 23:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Change {{Short description|Non-fatal shooting at rally of former U.S. President Donald Trump}} to {{Short description|Fatal shooting at rally of former U.S. President Donald Trump}} RidgelantRL (talk) 23:26, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Days before the incident, President Joe Biden stated "it's time to put Trump in a bullseye".
This is a long-standing metaphor in politics and other fields. People keep using it because there is no social consensus for not using it. That being so, why quote this? Conservatives who defended Palin using it will now attack Biden, liberals who attacked Palin will now defend Biden. Until someone writes Political speech § Shooting metaphors to offer clarity I see nothing to be gained by putting too much prominence on such remarks.
Thank you. Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 23:29, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are sources and then there are reliable sources. And to be clear, the issue is not that Biden or Palin said such things, it is the linking of such comments to shootings. IMO unless there is clear evidence a shooter was influenced by such a comment such linkage is not RS, it IS OR by a source.
Reliable sources are supposed to engage in original research. That's just journalism. We're not supposed to because we summarize what they say. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Single source: "Shooter and one audience member reportedly dead"
AP and Washington Post are reporting this, though it's from only one local DA, and not from the Secret Service or any federal government spokesperson. Take with a grain of salt:
Butler county district attorney Richard Goldinger tells me Trump was grazed by gunfire but is safe. An audience member was killed and the shooter is dead. Another person is in serious condition, the prosecutor said.
It's the same source - Butler County's district attorney – so we should seek more corroboration. We've been down this 'fog of confusion' road before when reporting on breaking news in Wikipedia and need to be more discerning. - Fuzheado | Talk00:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pennsylvania does not have unincorporated areas. If it’s outside the city limits of Butler it’s likely part of a township. Dough487200:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is part of Connoquenessing Township. There are unincorporated places in Pennsylvania such as Boyers. Irregardless, it does not seem appropriate to say that it occurred in the city of Butler. Here is a map of Butler County with cities, townships, etc. labeled. Butler County, PennsylvaniaRaskuly (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Use of Live or Archived Sources
I noticed the archiving of some live sources. Should we not be simply linking live sources instead for higher accuracy and to prevent future confusion if the old sources report outdated information? Some people may update the content of this Wiki article and not change the outdated sources. Bill Williams00:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The current infobox image is biased and inappropriate
Not the issue, primary issue is we don't have the rights to the image and it is possible someone at the event might release a similar image to the commons. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 00:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just because an image of a victim of a shooting is being used by the supporters of that victim doesn't mean the image itself is "inappropriate" for a situation like this NorthropChicken (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quite the opposite, this is the image the media is using the most (all show different variations of him raising his fist) and therefore it is most informative to readers and most identifiable if this image is used. This image should displayed in the infobox. Bill Williams00:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article should be considered for deletion
WP:V states "that all content must be verifiable with reliable sources". The current article relies on live updates and initial reports, which are often speculative and lack the depth of analysis and confirmation required for long-term encyclopaedic content. In particular, the primary sources include live updates from news outlets such as CNN, BBC, and The Guardian. While these are reputable sources, live reporting is prone to errors and retractions, making it less reliable for establishing verified facts. The article mentions multiple gunshots being heard based on witness accounts and initial reports, but there is no definitive follow-up confirming the exact details of the incident (eg, the identity of the perpetrator or the specific nature of the injuries). WP:NPOV requires articles to be written without bias. Including statements from individuals such as Elon Musk and politicians may introduce subjective opinions, inadvertently swaying the reader's perception. Statements from Elon Musk and political figures denouncing the violence introduce a bias, as they represent specific political and social perspectives.
Wikipedia is not intended to serve as a news outlet per WP:NotNews. It should not cover current events unless they have enduring historical significance. This incident, while significant, may not have the lasting historical impact required for inclusion in an encyclopaedia. Wikipedia's role is to document history rather than provide a running commentary on current events. The article's emphasis on real-time updates and immediate reactions suggests it is more suitable for a news report rather than an encyclopaedic entry, so translate to Wikinews. Wikipedia prohibits the use of unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas. The article includes speculative elements, such as the motive of the shooter and the broader political implications, which are not backed by solid, published research. Speculations about the political motives behind the shooting or its potential impact on the 2024 upcoming election lack verifiable sources and are inherently speculative.
No, irregardless of the Wikipedian craze around this current event it appears to have crossed the threshold of notability to qualify for having it's own article. Raskuly (talk) 00:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An AfD would be WP:SNOW closed. Come back in 6 or 12 months and with hindsight, and propose a merger if the long-term significance turns out to be minor. Boud (talk) 00:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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