Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
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User:Drsmoo (revised per comments)

Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere

 – moved to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Please_ban_two_users_from_article_Gilad_Atzmon Gerardw (talk)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Since my previous list of admins’ complaints about Drsmoo was considered inappropriate by User:Dcmq because it did not clearly show Drsmoo’s incivility towards me, I’ll focus instead on that, hoping someone can convince him to stop this behavior.

Regarding the Politics section of Israeli Defense Force member turned musician/political commentator Gilad Atzmon's article (which after an OTRS complaint was protected for 5 months):

Since there is insufficient discussion on the Atzmon talk page and I do not want to engage in edit wars with Drsmoo, I have had to go to various notice boards for opinions on specific WP:BLP (especially Wikipedia:Blp#Criticism_and_praise), WP:RS and 3rr/edit war issues regarding Drsmoo’s edits. Drsmoo follows me to every page and usually emphasizes exaggerated or untrue accusations that sabotage my efforts, rendering his behavior Wikipedia:Harassment#Wikihounding. The two most annoying are personal attacks accusing me of trying to protect an antisemite and repeated claims I’m ignoring some alleged consensus of other editors which I consider Wikipedia:Incivility#Identifying_incivility 2C: deliberately asserting false information. In any case, another distraction from reasoned discussions. Just a few of many sample diffs:

• Oct. 18: My BLP notice board complaint on cherry picking primary source quotes Drsmoo avoids the cherry picking/primary source issues with accusatory language: What is amazing and unsurprising is that the editor above, without fail, considers every single one of the subject's antisemitic statements to be "out of context."

• Oct 22.: Response to same BLP thread: the above editor has managed to turn an article about a little known bigot into a several page defense of his anti-semitism.

• Oct 22 on 3rr/Edit warring complaint because of Drsmoo’s constant reverts: Her whole point is that all of Atzmon's anti-semitic statements should be removed.

• October 25 on 3rr/Edit warring board: Drsmoo alleged Others have been chiming in consistently, particularly after you asked them too on noticeboards, you just keep reverting their edits. (Note: As the relevant section in talk page shows the only editor from edit boards who made substantive edits never answered my critiques. The other one just agreed the section should be shorter. And so I made corrective changes - based also in part on a past consensus edit.)

• November 11 Informal Mediation was agree to after my 3rr/edit warring complaint. Drsmoo writes: Carolmooredc's goal is to remove all of Atzmon's antisemitic quotes, regardless of the fact that they are notable (she has no problem using completely non notable sources however). After the above I advised Drsmoo: Please read Wikipedia:Civil#Identifying_incivility #2C which reads "(c) lying to mislead, including deliberately asserting false information; Constant false and unsupported accusations are not appreciated on wikipedia."

• Nov 16 Informal Mediation Drsmoo makes false allegations about my editing behavior being against all other editors and the Informal Mediator writes This was going so well until you started to attack Carol, Drsmoo.

• Nov 16 Informal Mediation: This diff shows my complaint If he keeps attacking me instead of dealing with issues I'm just supposed to ignore it? and Informal Mediator’s warnings to both of us.

• Nov 20 Informal Mediation: After I question if we need a more experienced mediator (or formal mediation) Drsmoo writes: Carolmooredc will request new mediators until she finds someone who she believes will force her edits on the page.

• Nov 23 On BLP/noticeboard Drsmoo alleges once again: To begin with, the last time this article was brought here, Carolmooredc completely reverted the significant changes of the two editors who attempted to help, replacing them with her own edits. (Again see Note on October 25 entry above.)

This whole situation has wasted an incredible amount of time I could have spent on the many other articles I edit. I hope I can get some help. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:24, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

To begin with, it was two editors from the noticeboard who you reverted after asking for their help, Hipocrite and Slimvirgin. You deleted both of their edits http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gilad_Atzmon&diff=321642088&oldid=321461856 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gilad_Atzmon&diff=321642476&oldid=321642088 and replaced them with the Politics Draft, which you claimed was a collaboration, and it originally was, but which one can see if they check the diffs, was almost entirely composed by you http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gilad_Atzmon/Politics_draft&action=history.

Then in the midst of discussion, you completely removed the entirety of the disputed section http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gilad_Atzmon&diff=327261185&oldid=327251414, (most of which was identical to the politics draft you replaced the section with) which was of course quickly reverted as an act of vandalism. You have have filled nearly the entirety of the article talk page with nonstop attacks on me. Both directly and indirectly (sometimes in the same paragraph) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gilad_Atzmon&diff=284327096&oldid=284319020 "Unfortunately, your claiming he IS an antisemite, based on reading a lot of out of context statements, is exactly the effect that some editors have been working to create in this article for months. We let the WP:RS share that opinion, we don't opine that way ourselves. I've complained about POV for those editors who constantly have made that claim, which is what Drsmoo is mad about. And the reason it is so poorly written is certain editors insist the most negative sounding comments be included." http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gilad_Atzmon&diff=282975023&oldid=282872166 "I also left a couple in to make Drsmoo and others who might come along and want to see some outrageous stuff happy."http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gilad_Atzmon&diff=285482150&oldid=285408395 "I think the bottom line remains that Drsmoo for a year has insisted on putting the most negative material on here in the most negative light" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gilad_Atzmon&diff=319272224&oldid=317139827 "Might be needed again because once against Drsmoo insists on taking out of context sentences from Atzmon's writings and sticking them in there." (CarolmooreDC was subsequently advised by that admin that she was editing with an "appalling lack of good faith" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Carolmooredc&diff=321125492&oldid=320996245) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gilad_Atzmon&diff=328804721&oldid=328689529 For some reason, CarolmooreDC decided to refer to me as "Drsmoo show"

It hasn't just been on the talk page, CarolmooreDC has been attacking me on various editors pages and on multiple noticeboards. On her own talk page, she has attempted to work with other editors to revise the article as a team, rather than discussing it with everyone on the Gilad Atzmon discussion page, while simultaneously insulting editors http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Carolmooredc&diff=279500434&oldid=279498060 "Also, what to do about Rance? He's been rather sneaky about getting his own writings in there without his name being mentioned (going to fix that now) but not as bad as THF and Drsmoo"

Three of the most recent attacks on noticeboards/in the mediation talk page, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=327563945&oldid=327537164 "Drsmoo is so absurdly opposed to admitting that a number of reliable sources mention that Atzmon is accused of antisemtism for criticisms of Zionism (6 in the article), it is absurd. I think it's a game to get me to focus on the accusations and not on Drsmoo's hatred of Atzmon" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=322357933 "The real issue is your specific edits against policy, like twisting these quotes. You like to throw up a smoke screen of accusations rather than deal with issues."http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Master_of_Puppets&diff=321955412&oldid=321953580 "He only makes vague accusations, which he can't back up with diffs" For over a year, rather than CarolmooreDC working with editors on the article, it's been nonstop topics about me on noticeboards, one after the other after the other Drsmoo (talk) 19:11, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Having looked at the evidence my feeling is still that this is an edit war over content. I shall assume raising this issue in multiple forums was asking for help about resolving the dispute. I am sorry it has continued so long without some peaceable resolution and I'm viewing raising it here as asking for help for a way out. I do not believe talk here would resolve any problems as you have both been involved in moderatorship and other forums about resolving the problems. My feeling at the moment is that the best way to fix all this with the least rancour on both sides would be to be refer it to WP:ANI with the recommendation you both be banned from editing that article for some months and let other people have a go at it instead. Dmcq (talk) 19:51, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Your recommendation we both be banned is one reason editors might be reluctant to bring problems here, especially if there is a long history that would take a lot of reading to understand. Or maybe I should have just come here the first time he attacked me and then I wouldn't have gotten involved in so much back and forth?? If that's the proper use of this forum, please tell me. And perhaps I should only have mentioned the first issue of his personal attacks, and not brought in the more sticky editing issue which he replied at length to, but I will not seek to counter with a more accurate rendition.

Are there other editors who comment on Wikialerts? Comments welcome.

Anyway, as it happens another more reasonable editor who is very familiar with all the details of the issue and worked on the compromise draft last spring has now agreed to become more involved. Maybe that will resolve the issue. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

We don't actually block people here; this a mediation forum where we try to get folks to come to mutual agreement. Based on past history and noted that the current and past WQA consist mostly of both of you going back and forth, I don't think we will be able to help you here. What works best is raising the issue(s) and allowing time for the process to work; each party responding immediately to the other makes it less likely that I, and perhaps other editors, will want to get involved. As DMCQ indicated, if blocking is necessary a referral to AN/I would be the next step, not that I recommend that. Gerardw (talk) 01:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't have any problem with your suggestion DMCQ. I can't see anything wrong with letting the rest of the Wikipedia community take over work on the article and decide what makes it most accurate. Drsmoo (talk) 14:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Continuing with her disruptive edits, CarolmooreDC restored her edits which no editors have agreed with, and singlehandedly decided to abort the mediation that she felt was not going her way. This was after repeatedly insulting the mediator both on his talk page and elsewhere. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation&diff=326654780&oldid=326540754 "he really is not very experienced" "doesn't understand the issues or how to address them" I hope something can be done about these increasingly caustic disruptions. Drsmoo (talk) 18:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I would support Dmcq's suggestion that both editors be banned from the article, either temporarily or permanently. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 18:32, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I would just like to point out that people do not have to stay in mediation (Informal like that one was, or formal), especially when there are so many personal attacks. The mediator did not mind my comments writing in his last missive on November 23: "Carol (oh, and in reply to your above statement, no personal offence taken, so do be honest)."

Anyway, before any banning from the article I did want to get on the record (See Diff) that my proposed changes actually solved serious WP:OR, WP:POV problems and thus made these changes which Drsmoo of course immediately reverted. And Talk Page editors have agreed on making the section shorter, which I did, and on ending cherry picking of quotations our of context of WP:RS, which I did. I don't know who has agreed with any specific Drsmoo edits. (Noticeboard editors have been all over the place on various issues.)

And, yes, this has taught me that as soon as there is a personal attack of any type what so ever one must come to this noticeboard and NOT engage the person at all or sooner or later one will be blamed as well and banned from the article. CarolMooreDC (talk) 00:42, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Gerardw makes excellent points and I don't actually have a problem with the two of us agreeing to a voluntary block on the article and talk page by an admin for, say two months, IF we can just delete the second two paragraphs of Gilad_Atzmon#Politics which contain the WP:OR and POV editing problems which I think violate BLP. And IF new editors put in problematic material and there are real BLP problems which other editors do not deal with, we can report them to WP:BLPN. Again, it should be noted that after the OTRS an Admin did delete all of the critical material (now back in in shorter form) as being problematic and after a now retired editor kept putting it back (See this diff and the next few following ones), he asked for the article to be protected. So it's not like I'm going rogue here asking for the article NOT to violate BLP. ;-) CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I have raised this at WP:ANI#Please ban two users from article Gilad Atzmon. I don't know if it's the way to do things according to the dispute resolution process but I think it is the best path for both for the editors and for WIkipedia. Dmcq (talk) 01:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I think having the rest of the wikipedia community work on the article would be a far better solution. I think some people have stayed away as a result of all the conflict between us. In response to CarolemooreDC's statements:

The statement that the the material Carolmooredc disputes was deleted after an OTRS is factually wrong. The article was locked with the relevant information featured http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gilad_Atzmon&diff=284054107&oldid=284053969, immediately after the article was unlocked, CarolmooreDC resumed deleting the material http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gilad_Atzmon&diff=317484413&oldid=317237627 Drsmoo (talk) 01:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Any one who bothers to follow back several edits from your first link sees that the admin deleted material and others put it back and then others deleted it, and at the time it was locked it was back in again. And I think anyone can see in the second link that my edit summary rem two tags no longer relevant with removal of primary source material without clear sourcing, WP:Undue rambling barely related to WP:RS point is accurate. CarolMooreDC (talk) 02:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe you're referring to the allegations of antisemitism section that was removed, yes that was overly long and had become full of justifications and apologies? I was very comfortable with the article in the state it was locked in. Drsmoo (talk) 03:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Eightball - personal attacks

Stale

 – left mesage on user talk asking user not to use term "lying" Gerardw (talk) 11:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Eightball has accused me outright here [1] and here [2] of lying with no foundation whatsoever. When asked to retract his accusation, he repeated it threefold, adding another accusation of misleading editors. I don't want to start a big argument on a discussion page with someone who doesn't understand what people are saying to him, and appears not to understand the subject either, but I will not accept charges of lying. Bretonbanquet (talk) 02:57, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

This is the only post I will make here. There is a list in F1 that is the official entry of list of all teams and drivers. This guy is saying that that list is not solid information, despite the fact that it is the only primary source for such information. That is a flat out lie and serves only to mislead other editors. This isn't a personal attack, it's a fact, and I won't have someone telling me not to correct them. Eightball (talk) 03:16, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Saying something incorrect is prevarication (or more simply, "being wrong"). Lying is intentionally deceiving someone and use of the term strikes me as both unnecessary and uncivil. Gerardw (talk) 03:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

(e/c)Eightball started the thread in question debating a part of this "solid information", which is in fact a temporary and provisional list, updated regularly and which often features anomalous information, leading to long discussions exactly like the one he himself started today. A difference of opinion regarding this list has led to accusations of deliberate lying, which is not acceptable. Bretonbanquet (talk) 03:22, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Eightball, "lying" is an extremely provocative term, and you clearly use it in a different way than other people do, so you are strongly advised not to use it at all. Just use "wrong" instead. Looie496 (talk) 16:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Don't use the word "lying" unless you mean to accuse someone of deliberately relating what they know to be untrue. You can be incorrect without lying. --King Öomie 17:29, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

User:Viriditas multiple accusations against other editors in AfD

Work in progress; comments welcome

 – additional third party input welcome Gerardw (talk) 11:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Viriditas (talk · contribs) has made several serious allegations against other editors in this AfD but is not prepared to ask for an investigation. There has been a lively discussion about the article but Viriditas appears to be turning this into a personal argument. Some advice on how to respond to such accusations from this well established editor would be welcome.

Examples of allegations made:

• Harrasment against User:RightCowLeftCoast
• Wikilawyering and Forum-shopping against User:RightCowLeftCoast and User:Ash
• Personal attack against User:Ash

—Ash (talk) 14:40, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

My inclination is to sympathize with Viriditas here. You can't expect a person who has put a lot of work into an article that has already survived one deletion attempt to be happy when it is hit with a new one. Why not simply stop responding and let the AFD come to completion? Looie496 (talk) 16:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe that although Viriditas has acted at times that violates Wikiquette, I understand some of the frustration and reasoning that he maybe experiencing. That being said, he has been warned multiple times (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) and has been asked to be civil. I don't believe that my request for the user to be civil with those who may hold differing opinion regarding the notability of a subject is asking for to much. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:31, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to confirm the statement "already survived one deletion attempt"; the above references are to the first AFD on this article, an early PROD was quickly deleted by Viridias without much in the way of general discussion.—Ash (talk) 14:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The diffs provided by the original complainant strike me as, at worst, mildly incivil and best overlooked. Certainly not to a level that I would support intervention. Gerardw (talk) 00:58, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Possible example of hounding. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 12:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:N/N was linked to in the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Mun_Charn_Wong which Viriditas has been participating in; it's a reasonable good faith assumption he followed the link rather than hounding anyone. Gerardw (talk) 13:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Good lord. If no one else wants to hone up to it, I'll take full responsibility and do a bound-to-be-a-mess non-admin close as delete since this is never going to end otherwise. As in, never. Ever! It's been derailed and just pushed all over the place. The difference between notability of a living person and a recently-deceased are essentially the same, and history has not drive the gears of time forward to advance the concept of notability. Success is not notability, scare mention in 2 books is not notability. Absolutely nothing else there is encyclopedic. ♪ daTheisen(talk) 20:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Wong was one of the first Chinese-Americans from Hawaii to fight in WWII at a time when discrimination was rampant. After the war, he became a recognized life insurance salesman and won a prestigious business award for his work. He also managed to perform important WWII research and contributed to military history, as well as creating a scholarship at the University of Hawaii. He is known for his contributions to the field of life insurance (he published on the subject and gave speeches around the world) and he is known for his WWII research and work with the university. You've only been on Wikipedia since the second week of October,[3] and you've never created an article during that time,[4] yet you have 1,421 edits, and from your very first edit you've been participating in project space,[5], devoting almost 27% of your edits to AfD debates, and 31% to user talk pages. Your article work is as low as 28%, so you will understand my concern that you might not be here for the right reasons. In fact, it seems that most of your work here only involves nominating articles for deletion, and your 28% work in mainspace might consist of nothing more than adding deletion tags to articles. That's very strange behavior for an account only created at 11:19, 16 October 2009, if you don't mind me saying so. I'm curious, what is Wikipedia policy on accounts solely designed to delete articles? Viriditas (talk) 04:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Wording in edit summary constitutes a personal attack. I have placed a lvl 2 warning on the users talk page, as appropriate. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Tagging the "world's greatest life insurance salesman" with multiple unneeded tags, including a "notability" tag, indicates an abuse of the tagging process. Please do some actual research before placing tags on articles. Additionally, expansion requests should not be used on articles already tagged with stub templates like Ben Feldman, as a stub tag is an "explicit request for expansion". If you are unsure of how to use tags, use the talk page and ask questions. Viriditas (talk) 04:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Viriditas, I guess as you are not listening, it is useless to point out that repeating criticism of RightCowLeftCoast here and in the AFD does not justify your offensive edit comment of "Suggest tagger do research for the first time in his life".—Ash (talk) 04:46, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Please do not continue to support bad editing behavior, which is clearly used to justify the unwarranted deletion of notable articles. This is a pattern, and we can see it in the contribution history. RightCowLeftCoast shows up to add an "article issues tag", then he follows up with a "prod", and then finally, the article is brought to deletion. Feldman has dozens to hundreds of references in the literature, and the notability tag was added for no reason whatsoever other than to justify this tactical deletion strategy. It's bad editing, and it needs to stop. Viriditas (talk) 05:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

As the article was when I first read it, it received the tag appropriately. As appropriate, as the article is improved, the clean up templates are removed or replaced with more appropriate templates.

Regarding the Feldman article, I have added references denoting increase verification of notability to its talk page for use of other editors to improve the article.

I thank you for trying to show me the 'correct' way to edit wikipedia; however, the personal attacks are not necessary, and are not welcomed. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:27, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Viriditas, I did not support RightCowLeftCoast's tag of the article, I pointed out repeating criticism does not in any way justify your offensive edit comment. Let me repeat, you are not listening and attempts to side-track the AFD are now this WQA are tendentious and manipulative. You only seem to have two types of response, answering questions with questions or making accusations.—Ash (talk) 09:22, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

The goal of WQA is to help users reach mutually agreed upon understandings of how to work better together. It requires good faith and a willingness to listen to uninvolved third-parties from all parties.

• Ash and RightCowLeftCoast, the first two accusations of Viriditas being uncivil were, at best, thin. Refusing to acknowledge that or withdraw your complaints isn't helpful. Continuing to look for dirt could be considered WP:HOUND.
• Viriditas, the last edit summary was over the line. Not commenting on the merits of the edit, just the phrasing of your edit summary.
• RightCowLeftCoast, posting the template on Viriditas's page isn't helpful (WP:DTTR) and if you ask for the community's help here you ought to let the process finish

I'm going to leave the section open to solicit help from additional third-party editors. (Some might disagree with me, and that's cool. It's part of the process.) You guys continuing a back and forth dialogue will not be helpful and most likely result in the alert going stale with no resolution. Not to discourage WP:CIVIL dialogue on the article talk pages; but if that's untenable I'd suggest wikibreaks, article WP:RFC or WP:THIRD, if you haven't tried those already. Best wishes. Gerardw (talk) 11:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

May I kindly ask how reporting continued actions of Viriditas directed towards myself is considered Hounding? I asked Viriditas at least once more to please be civil prior to using a lvl 2 template. It was not something that I did quickly or without hesitation.

I understand what you are saying regarding the back and forth, and distance between editors would definitely go a long way to deesculating the current situation. That being said, I have stopped directly working on Mun Charn Wong in hopes to avoid Viriditas. As soon as Viriditas began editing Ben Feldman (insurance salesman) I have stopped editing that article as well. I believe I have been relatively patient with Viriditas regarding his actions, and have asked multiple times for civility.

If you would like I can stop responding here as well. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 14:51, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately I have to agree here. Describing my responses to Viriditas' accusations as "looking for dirt" is emotive wording and a misinterpretation of the facts. I added reliable sources to the Ben Feldman article, Viriditas followed our edits, not the reverse. You may find it helpful to note that WP:3O only applies when two editors are involved and WP:RFC could only apply once this WQA is closed.—Ash (talk) 14:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

What strikes me as rather rude is Viriditas demanding that every Delete !vote explain themselves, or openly challenging their statement (again and again and again). Seems overly combative. I don't have a stake in the AfD myself, but it's off-putting to see. The community isn't a bunch of idiots and you, and the closing admins know what they're doing. --King Öomie 15:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with Gerardw that many of the accusations of impropriety have been very weakly founded. It seems to me that the first accusation was made by Ash here, to which Viriditas responded in like by accusing Ash of personal attacks here.

It seems to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that Viriditas mistakenly took Ash's comment; "I originally came to the article to provide a third opinion but I was aggressively rejected by Viriditas" as a personal attack, and said as much later on, which Ash took as a personal attack.

To me it seems that there was no real malice in either patry, at least to begin with, and looks like a honest misunderstanding has simply escalated;

Although I doubt that Ash's first comment was intended as a personal attack, Viriditas took it that way, and from there the entire matter has slowly sunk down. I recommend that you all just leave the issue behind you. You all seem to feel that you have been attacked, and you equally all seem to feel that you haven't made any personal attacks.

My Advice is:

Firstly, be careful when interacting with other users, especially when accusing them of impropriety.

And Secondly, remember to assume good faith as to intent; in a sensitive area like AfD, tempers can fray, it's important to remember that just because a user seems to make a harsh or cutting remark towards you, doesn't necessarily mean that their intent is to hurt. If you can, just ignore it.

Kind regards, Spitfire^Tally-ho! 21:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

User:Izzedine is making argument personal, no matter how I phrase it.

User:Izzedine has made changes to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad without consensus, then when I question Izzedine about Izzedine's reasons, User labels me as being rude and pejorative. User posted a warning to my page and deleted my warning on user's page. This is not the first time user has deleted warning off user's talk page, see difference at User talk:Izzedine 01:55, 2009 November 27. THough I know Users are permitted to delete comments off their user pages, it still gets in the way of tallying up a user's tendency for losing neutrality. a problem this user clearly suffers from. Please assist. THanks.--Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 19:43, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

"User labels me as being rude and pejorative"— please provide a diff for this, kind regards, Spitfire^Tally-ho! 19:48, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, this looks very overblown to me. Your only complaint against Izzedine seems to be that they gave you a {{uw-joke}} template on your talk page? However, you also gave them a {{uw-npov}} template, why do you think its less acceptable for Izzedine to template you then it is for you to template them?
I agree that the {{uw-joke}} template is one that could be very annoying, especially if your edits are made in good faith, but then, the same goes for the {{uw-npov}}. When you are in a content dispute, the answer is to discuss your concerns with the other party/ies, not to post templates on each others talk pages. The "uw-" templates are generally reserved for vandalism, not for good-faith attempts at article building. Another thing that is generally reserved for vandalism is WP:AIV, Abie, it wasn't very constructive to report Izzedine there. The first step in dispute resolution is to bring up your concerns with the other editor/s concerned (user warnings don't count as bringing up your concerns).
My advice is this:
Izzedine; I suggest that in future disputes your first action is to politely bring up your concerns with the other editors, try not to use user warning templates.
Abie the Fish Peddler; pretty much the same, I know that it can be extremely aggravating to receive a user warning template that isn't deserved, as I have in the past received such warnings. I suggest that instead of retaliating by posting another warning on the other users talk page you instead gently discuss the issue with them.
To both of you: I suggest that you leave the matter of the warnings behind you, and (if you want to) proceed to resolve the issue on the Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in a polite and civil way.
Kind regards, Spitfire^Tally-ho! 20:20, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

and try very hard to assume good faith, which admittedly is hard when in the middle of a content discussion you feel strongly about. Consider article WP:RFC or WP:THIRD to get assistance in coming to consensus on the content. Gerardw (talk) 20:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the issue is resolved. I asked for other editors to give their perspectives. So far one has. And I was able to understand that the photograph Izzedine wanted was the best choice. Though I still think Izzedine is very quick to take things personally. I wish in the future Izzedine will keep the suspicion of ulterior motives out of the discussion. I have also learned that if an editor reports that I have been vandalizing, that doesn't mean that I have been vandalizing and I don't need to freak out. Thanks for your help. --Abie the Fish Peddler (talk) 07:18, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

User:AzureFury -- Incivility

AzureFury has become increasingly uncivil on the Iraq War talk page. His behavior has resulted in several disputes. An editor came to the talk page and stated their opinion that the article was not neutral.[6] They didn't list any specific reasons as to why they thought this, and this created a small dispute as to whether or not their POV claim was even legitimate. This dispute shortly led to the beginning of uncivil and bad faith comments by AzureFury: [7][8] The next part, long story short, was me letting them know that they were being uncivil -- and Azure claiming that doing so was a personal attack[9] although they were also confronted by another user about it as well.[10] I feel I civilly and clearly explained myself in an attempt to get them to understand that they were being unreasonable,[11], but their response was unnecessarily hostile.[12] Although I cited wp:civility to them, they ignored my argument and suggestions to read it, instead seemingly taking quotes out of wp:agf and wp:npa to defend their actions.

Not long after, another editor posted a new section on the talk page, raising a question between the usage of the words words "war" and "conflict".[13] AzureFury, despite the multiple clearly given warnings at the top of the page, responded by using the talk page as a forum for his view that the war is illegal.[14] Although I cited wp:TPNO to tell him that his comment was unacceptable for a talk page, and wp:TPO to let him know that it could be removed,[15] he refused to acknowledge his inappropriate comment, using the argument that wp:TPO didn't say anything about expressing opinions[16] (again, I had given him the direct link to the section that spells out inappropriate behavior on a talk page -- wp:TPNO). His refusal to heed the warnings directly led to another, long, drawn out dispute between AzureFury and User:Coldplay Expert, who was also asserting AzureFury's incivility. The argument between the two quickly became a personal political debate, although AzureFury explictly stated that since WP:BITE didn't apply to Coldplay Expert, they refuse to assume good faith and be welcoming (completely disregarding wp:civility).[17] The argument between the two continued until a third party had to step in and archive the entire section[18] and suggest dispute resolution. That section can be seen here. It seems clear that AzureFury, despite multiple warnings, is unfamiliar with wp:civility and talk page behavioral guidelines, and this has resulted in long disputes that disrupt the article and the talk page. I tried to deal with it myself, but they seem uninterested with familiarizing themselves with policy.--Abusing (talk) 23:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

• I am assuming that per the instructions above you have notified all users of this post. I have responded to the talk page of the article in question in an effort to resolve the dispute. I would note that it seems to me several parties are implicated here, so I wonder why you would single out a specific editor. Eusebeus (talk) 23:34, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

This is all old news. This supposed "dispute" has been over for a couple days now. Oh, and I haven't once made a personal comment about another editor. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 00:06, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

It's been over less than one day. And does this count as a personal comment? I think so... --Thejadefalcon^{Sing your song}_{The bird's seeds} 00:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Not really, I was referring to a policy. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 00:30, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, except I know Coldplay Expert, having come across him many times on Wikipedia (and I shall restate that I entered that argument unbiased and found both of you at fault), and he is hardly a troll. --Thejadefalcon^{Sing your song}_{The bird's seeds} 00:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Eh, I was thinking of "troll" more as the discussion we were in. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 00:35, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Both of you were at fault. --Thejadefalcon^{Sing your song}_{The bird's seeds} 00:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Please copy and paste my first comment that did not either attempt to discuss policy or discuss improving the article. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 00:39, 7 December 2009 (UTC)