Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes

Parameter names normally use underscores, not spaces

At MOS:INFOBOX#Consistency between infoboxes, bullet 8 says "Multi-word parameter names should be separated with spaces, thus: |first second=". I looked at the popular templates {{Infobox person}}, {{Infobox country}}, {{Infobox city}}, {{Infobox football team}} and each has two (or more) word parameters that are sep'd by underscores, not spaces. Should this point be changed or removed? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 05:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

I'd say so. I raised this point here in October 2011, in conjunction with discussion at Parameter naming standards for Infobox person. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:35, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Metadata explanation

The text:

Using an infobox also makes the data within it available to third party re-users such as DBpedia in a granular, machine readable format, often using microformats.

has been removed, because:

it's not the infobox that facilitates this, it's the classes within the infobox

This is ridiculous; the text should be restored. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:31, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

so explain how an infobox generates metadata without any additional microformat classes, and explain how a navbox or table with microformat classes does not generate metadata. it seems as though the microformat classes are the distinguishing characteristic here, not the fact that it is an infobox. Frietjes (talk) 19:28, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

DBpedia doesn't rely on the classes (though it may use them) for the extraction of metadata from infoboxes. An infobox, including the classes that are part of it can generate metadata available to other re-users. That's why the wording says "often", not "always". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:59, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

so, DBpedia doesn't parse {{persondata}} or any other part of the article? again, it appears that the fact that it is an infobox isn't what makes it able to be parsed, it is the use of a common structured presentation of data. Frietjes (talk) 20:06, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Where did I say anything about Persondata? Again: DBpedia parses infoboxes. It may or may not make use of microformat classes when it does so, but it does not rely solely on them. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:43, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

again, I do not believe the statement, "using an infobox also makes the data within it available to third party re-users such as DBpedia", is entirely true. it is not the fact that the data is in an infobox that makes it available to DBpedia. if you look at the DBpedia content you will see that it has plenty of data that does not come from the infobox. so the infobox is not the reason why the information is available. Frietjes (talk) 22:10, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The statement does not say that the infobox is the only place from which DBpedia extracts data. The presence on DBpedia of some data that is not from an en.Wikipedia infobox does not mean that DBpedia does not use our infoboxes; it does. Note also "such as". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:42, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

the statement is misleading, and should be either reworded or removed as off-topic. Frietjes (talk) 00:06, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

The statement does not mislead. It is entirely factual and accurate. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:12, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

I have to say I agree with IllaZilla and Frietjes that this doesn't belong in the purpose section. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 23:37, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Why, when it is one of the purposes of infoboxes? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:03, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I disagree that it is one of the purposes. Clearly third-party databases can harvest information from articles without infoboxes, so this is not really the purpose of an infobox. Any undergraduate computer science student familiar with natural language processing could write a program to parse prose. Most of the information is in the article in multiple places. For example, for people, we have birth/death information in the infobox, in the prose, in the persondata, and in the categories. All of these sources can be parsed by a computer, so if we are worried about making our content machine readable, we shouldn't be overly concerned about infoboxes. There are very good reasons for infoboxes, but this is not the real purpose. The real purpose is to present information in a concise format for our readers. Thanks! Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 00:28, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

What third-party databases can do is immaterial; that they do use infoboxes is irrefutable; as is that many of our infoboxes do emit metadata via microformats. That infoboxes are useful to humans in the way that they present information is not disputed; that is one of their purposes, but it is not the only one. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:01, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

they use the entire article, not just the infobox. hence, this is not a purpose of the infobox. Frietjes (talk) 16:39, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

They may use other things also; but they specifically use our infoboxes. I'm not sure why this is unclear to you: our article says so, as does their documentation. Nor are they the only users of the metadata emitted by our infoboxes. You've again removed the section under discussion, while noting that it is being discussed. Why could you not wait until we have consensus? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:10, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

you appear to be the only one arguing for the addition of this statement. and no, most third party sites don't specifically use our infoboxes, they specifically use the entire article which includes the infobox, the categories, any other tables, and the prose. Frietjes (talk) 17:45, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

And there is only you and one other arguing against it. Wikipedia is not, as I'm sure you're aware, a democracy. Where did I say anything about "most third party sites"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:55, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

of course you conveniently forgot Plastikspork, who commented in this thread, and IllaZilla who reverted your edits. Frietjes (talk) 21:47, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Plastikspork is the "one other" to whom I referred; and IllaZilla hasn't made any argument in this section. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there is a doubt about the accuracy of the statement "Using an infobox also makes the data within it available to third party re-users such as DBpedia in a granular, machine readable format, often using microformats." So may we progress beyond that point, or is it necessary to provide references? What seems to be contested is whether the statement deserves a place in the section entitled "Purpose of an infobox". I have no doubt whatsoever that when I add an infobox to an article, one of the main purposes I have in mind is to make the data within it available to third-party re-users. Without that, I would have great difficulty in convincing myself that an infobox is providing anything more than a well-crafted opening paragraph of the lead would do. And in full disclosure, when I encounter editors who are unaware of the ability of infoboxes to deliver that functionality, it is always useful to be able to point them to the section in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes #Purpose of an infobox so that they know I'm not the only person who wants to provide this service. I see no good reason to remove a statement that is accurate and reflects the reality of the use of infoboxes. --RexxS (talk) 21:14, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

yes, a citation is needed for an important 3rd party site that requires an infobox to obtain metadata. as I am sure you know, DBpedia does not require an infobox to obtain metadata. they do, however, heavily leverage templated information, matching parameter names with values. since not all templates are infoboxes, then we can certainly agree that it is not the fact that it is an infobox which makes it easier to parse. it is the fact that the data is presented in a uniform format that can be easily parsed by a machine. for example, DBpedia also parses tables. Frietjes (talk) 23:33, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is talking about "an important 3rd party site that requires an infobox to obtain metadata". I'm sure you're familiar with strawman, so perhaps we could get back on track by me asking if we actually need a reference for the statement Using an infobox also makes the data within it available to third party re-users? Does it make the data available or doesn't it? Once you have conceded the truth of that, we can go on to look at:

• whether DBpedia is such a third-party user
• if an infobox makes data available in a granular, machine readable format, often using microformats

That should complete the necessary verification of the accuracy of the statement as written (rather than an imaginary statement that you're objecting to). --RexxS (talk) 01:05, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

templates and formatted tables make data available in a granular, machine readable format, often using microformats. an infobox is a template and a table, but not all templates and tables are infoboxes. Frietjes (talk) 01:16, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Good, we're making progress. We have agreement then that:

(1) infoboxes make data available in a granular, machine readable format (often using microformats)

(2) but not every entity that makes data available in a granular, machine readable format (often using microformats) is an infobox

from (2) above, we can agree that an infobox is not required to make data within it available to third party re-users in a granular, machine readable format, so we won't be writing anything into MOS that says required. But from (1), it is now crystal clear that we can write "an infobox makes the data within it available to third-party re-users in a granular, machine readable format, often using microformats." So we just have to establish whether DBpedia is an example of such a third-party re-user, right? --RexxS (talk) 03:14, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Collapsed or hidden infoboxes

A small number of editors insist on hiding infoboxes inside collapsed sections; or moving them to the foot of articles. Recent examples include:

• Peter Planyavsky
• Little Moreton Hall
• Renaissance Theatre Company
• Montacute House
• Cathedral of Blessed Mother Teresa in Pristina

Is this acceptable? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:15, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a not a good idea. Jweiss11 (talk) 18:17, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

It can be a good idea, where there is objection to a conventional infobox, and is likely to become increasingly useful, as infoboxes are loaded up with less important data that is excessive at the top of the page. Johnbod (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

It sounds to me like you might have a misconception about Wikidata does or will do. --Izno (talk) 18:28, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

If there is an issue with too much data being loaded into infoboxes, then that's an issue to address for whomever (editors/project) that maintain the infobox to start trimming excessive data, or use means (as Izno notes with the video game template) to collapse less-critical data within the infobox but still have it there. --MASEM (t) 20:15, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

But that's inconsistent with the view expressed by Andy Mabbett that the purpose of infoxes is to emit metadata. Surely the more we have of that the better? George Ponderevo (talk) 23:05, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I have never made the false claim that "the purpose [singular] of infoxes [sic] is to emit metadata". That is one of their purposes, but not the only one. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

There's an important difference between what information is just "excessive" and what is "excessive at the top of the page" (meaning always visible) which is what I said. Once the box is collapsed people can load them up with what they like for all I care. Experience shows that while they are always visible there will be endless arguments over what information justifies inclusion. Johnbod (talk) 14:23, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

the way to do this would be to add the option to add 'collapsible collapsed' to the class in {{infobox person}}, {{Infobox historic site}}, etc., not use some hack of div tags and html tables. Frietjes (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

That would be one approach, but another problem with infoboxes is that they constrain the size of a lead image, so the width of a collapsed/expanded infobox really ought to mirror the size of the lead image to make the alignment look decent. Not a massive problem I agree, but one that would need to be addressed. George Ponderevo (talk) 19:48, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Where there is consensus to allow that option at the template page itself, yes. Such exists at Template:Infobox video game (though I don't agree with it). Otherwise, no. --Izno (talk) 18:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• If there is no consensus either way for including an infobox, it seems like a reasonable compromise to me. If people want to see it they can click it; if javascript is turned off it expands by default anyway. Betty Logan (talk) 19:00, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• I am completely against info boxes, except on pages requiring statistics (sports people who have done little else but get laid and kick/hit a ball) and mathematical, chemical and scientific type pages. On historical pages, especially buildings, info-boxes either over simplify or give false information. This is the best compromise that there's going to be and the only one that I will agree to.  Giano  19:20, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

If an infobox contains false information, then the information should be corrected, just like any other error on a page. This assertion of "false information" has been going on for years, and it has always been a bogus argument. - Denimadept (talk) 01:17, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Information becomes false and misleading, when it's so complex that it cannot be correctly explained in a box in five words.  Giano  08:19, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

It took you more than five words to explain that, so I take it that you're being false and misleading. You might want to work on that. - Denimadept (talk) 17:43, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

You might want to work on not being a flippant and prattissh idiot. If you can't make a sensible contribution, go and enjoy your own company.  Giano  19:54, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Claiming that information becomes inaccurate when it's not a sound-bite is clearly incorrect. In other words, your original statement, which I commented on, was clearly wrong. - Denimadept (talk) 03:20, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not "clearly wrong"—if you accept the tacit predicate that the "Information" that "becomes false and misleading" is the information in the infobox. It wasn't very artfully phrased, but you could have figured it out if you'd put in half the energy you spent on being patronizing and pedantic. Choess (talk) 04:14, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

*sigh* Gratuitously rude of me, and for that I apologize, and it also detracts from my point: we should be discussing the salient point—that infoboxes can encourage or even force editors to over-summarize facts to the point of inaccuracy—rather than each other's language or behavior. Choess (talk) 06:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I deserved it, at least somewhat. The thing is, any information that's incorrect can be fixed in an infobox just as easily as in the rest of the article. I don't see how it can be otherwise. - Denimadept (talk) 06:35, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I think what Giano meant is that information that was accurate in the article can become inaccurate when it's distilled into a summary in an infobox; a compression artifact, so to speak. Cf. Dilbert. For instance, how would one denote an occupation for Emperor Norton? Fortunately, no one has tried in his current infobox, but you can see how "real estate speculator", "emperor", and "mendicant" would all mislead through omission—he wasn't in real estate for most of his life, he was an emperor only by sufferance, as it were, and yet he kept too much state to be a beggar. Obviously it's worse for some things than others: filling in, say, chemical infoboxes or taxoboxes is likely to be pretty clear-cut, but articles on biography, architecture, literature, music and so forth are more likely to have these qualities that defy classification without explanation. Mind you, that's OK if the parties editing the article agree that they'll just omit that field from the infobox because it can't be concisely and accurately summarized; but then that provokes other people because the infobox isn't emitting the maximum amount of metadata, and sometimes they jam an inaccurate summary in so that the field can appear in the infobox. Choess (talk) 13:44, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

There's no proper way to summarize Emperor Norton, other than, maybe, "mad man". Still, I think I get your point. Some entries in some infoboxes don't belong there. I concentrate on {{infobox bridge}} and similar, which don't have these problems, as long as you don't listen to User:Wetman, so I can't speak to issues others might have. - Denimadept (talk) 21:00, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• There have been arguments for years over whether infoboxes are appropriate for English country house articles, which is why this approach was introduced a few years ago into Montacute House and more recently into Little Moreton Hall, so this is an attempt to give the best of both worlds. Infoboxes are in general often too long anyway, and distort the article's layout, but anyone who wants to see it has only to make a single click. Also, it's not infrequently that case that for some articles, in particular short articles such as Pendine Museum of Speed, the infobox completely overwhelms the article if it's not collapsed. I really don't see the problem here, and I hope that other editors will pick up on this approach. Contrary to what Andy Mabbett claims, the infobox isn't hidden, it's simply collapsed. George Ponderevo (talk) 19:29, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree some infoboxes are too long. Some of the stuff in {{infobox bridge}} really doesn't belong there. But I'm not willing to fight it. A better answer may be to figure out a replacement for the "infobox" concept. Maybe a pop-up? Ick, I just had to reswallow my lunch. Well, maybe another way, then. Some kind of summary page or such? I mean, hyperlinks are not exactly foreign here. I dunno. - Denimadept (talk) 21:00, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• • The infobox is hidden, by wrapping it in another HTML element, a DIV, which is not part of the infobox, and which styled as collapsed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
• The choice of whether to use an infobox or not is up to page editors, but if one is going to include data in collapsed infobox that otherwise would have gone in a top-of-page infobox, it is improper to hide that data as such. Either use the infobox and incorporate the data into that, or don't and put the data into the prose. --MASEM (t) 20:12, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• On a properly written page (per MOS), the data is always already in the 'prose' - and should always be easily available in the lead section. This is why so many people don't see the need for an unsightly, misleading and distorting info-box just a few millimetres away.  Giano  21:21, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• Prose yes, but not necessarily in the lead. For example, in multiperson creative works (like films and video games) while the infobox will have the major participants in the film, the lead would be inappropriate to list them all out (most films, for example, highlight the director and the top two or three actors). An infobox should be tabular data that is repeated in detail somewhere in the prose that quickly summarize the major details of the article which can be briefly represented by that. That data should not be hidden if the infobox is present. --MASEM (t) 04:15, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

But that is exactly what the lead is supposed to do. If information is not worthy of inclusion in the lead, it should not be in an info box. They acheive the same purpose millimietres away from each other. If the lead is properly written, the box is redundant. Or are you saying that in a film like Ben-Her the box should stretch the length of page and into the next listing every actor? Giano  08:19, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I think that's exactly what he's saying, thus demonstrating the idiocy of tying the infobox to this so-called metadata generation. There are so many more elegant ways to achieve a better result that I find this whole discussion rather astonishing. Is there no vision here, no imagination? George Ponderevo (talk) 10:09, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I work on bridge articles. Putting all the stats in the lead would not make sense. You put basics in the lead. If anyone wants to know more, they read the infobox and/or the rest of the article. - Denimadept (talk) 17:43, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

As this points out, the infobox is used for some readers as to effectively distill down the basic facts of the article that they need quickly, without having to scan through text, in a consistent format across articles of that type. As to the film infobox, you'll note most rarely list any actor - I think the Film project has them limit to the 5-7 principle ones (with a cast section later to fill in the rest). But not all 5-7 actors may be appropriate to mention in the lead if it just weighs it down, and most I've seen typically list the 2-3 leading roles. The point is still that while all the data in the infobox should be used in the article prose somewhere, it doesn't need to be all in the lead - though clearly there should be some duplication there. --MASEM (t) 17:54, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• But the data isn't hidden, it's simply in a collapsed infobox. Can we please stop referring to collapsed infoboxes as hiding anything? George Ponderevo (talk) 04:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

If it's not visible when I go to the page, and I have to do something to get it to show up, it's hidden. You're not going to get agreement on this. - Denimadept (talk) 06:03, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

All you have to do to get the data to show up is to read the article, nothing is being hidden. George Ponderevo (talk) 06:31, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

You keep saying that, and I will keep repeating that IT IS NOT SHOWING when I get to the page. I have to TAKE AN ACTION to see it. That's hidden. You can word it how ever you like, but that doesn't change the facts. - Denimadept (talk) 07:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

You may repeat your misrepresentation as often as you like, doesn't make it true though. If the infobox was hidden there would nothing for you to click on to see it, it would be hidden. Geddit it? George Ponderevo (talk) 10:01, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I stand by my statement. Is the infobox showing? No, you have to click on something to see it. That's hidden. You may continue to refute the obvious, but it just makes you look silly. - Denimadept (talk) 17:43, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I really don't think there's any call for that kind of abuse. Is everyone who disagrees with you silly or just me? George Ponderevo (talk) 18:36, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I apologize. George, it's not just you. You're just the latest one in a series, that I know of, who have been fighting infoboxes for years. There was an argument of this type relating to a major bridge article (Ponte Vecchio) back in 2008. The opponent there denied that the bridge was a bridge, so the bridge infobox was not needed. He used similar arguments, "disinfobox" was a memorable one, and the result was a collapsed infobox. It got to a point where the prize wasn't worth the effort. Later, he went away and others restored the infobox. Or maybe I did. I forget. I have to concede that there are places where an infobox is perhaps less desirable. Personally, I'm unclear on where those are, as every place I've seen them seems to be helped by them, but that's me. - Denimadept (talk) 19:17, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

But I'm not fighting infoboxes, and I've never removed one. What I'm against is the screen real estate they occupy, the way they constrain the size of the lead image, and the impact they have on the article's visual presentation when they bleed out of the lead. Take a look at Albert Bridge, London for instance, with its ridiculous postage stamp image inside the infobox. George Ponderevo (talk) 19:43, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

That's been a problem for quite a while. The issue is how to make a useful image which shows the bridge w/o including a lot of extra unneeded stuff. I'm not aware of any pat answers. Check out Longfellow Bridge. I cut that image out of a larger one at File:Longfellow_pru.jpg, which is wonderful, but had too much in it. The best answer, IMHO, would be for someone to make a better image and use that in the infobox. We're also trying to arrange that for Hoover Dam. The image there is wonderful, by Ansel Adams, but it doesn't show the new bridge, so we (the people working on that article) would like a new one. It's not an easy problem. We don't want to make the infobox wider, or it will take too much of the layout. - Denimadept (talk) 03:20, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I think it's a very easy problem to solve; don't include an image in the collapsed infobox, and as in Montacute Hall, place it separately at the head of the article. Would you at least agree that many infoboxes are way too long, and consequently distort the article's layout, forcing text to be squeezed between images and the extended infobox? Take a look at SS Eastland for instance. Isn't that a clear case where at least some collapsing would be beneficial? Isn't it also a clear and explicit breach of WP:MOSIM? "Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other, and between an image and an infobox or similar" caused directly by the presence of the infobox? George Ponderevo (talk) 13:28, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Just to be clear: The infoboxes in the articles that Andy Mabbett listed are not collapsed. They are not collapsed. The infoboxes are wrapped in a {{hidden}} template. That template collapses and hides its content (the infobox). The correct solution to this "problem" (not a problem in my view) is to modify the infobox; the solution is not to extract certain parts of the infobox (image and its caption) and then enclose the now incomplete infobox with {{hidden}} and then apply custom css fixes to make it look ok. That is ugly and wrong. Any collapsing mechanism must be incorporated into the infobox.

The perception of article layout distortion is in the eye of the beholder. This beholder does not perceive an infobox as a distortion.

Ship article "infoboxes" are tables that include several infoboxes (image, characteristics, career, and sometimes, NRHP}. Does SS Eastland violate WP:MOSIM? Perhaps. The imperative though is to place the infobox on the right. But if the infobox is collapsible as in Little Moreton Hall the "Avoid sandwiching ..." guideline is violated when the infobox is visible.

There may be no perfect solution, but wrapping an infobox in {{hidden}} is one of the least perfect.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:59, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

There's no "must" about it, and "least perfect" makes no sense, as "perfect is an absolute term, not a relative one. Why not address the WP:MOSIM issue I raised earlier? Including images in infoboxes was always a silly idea anyway. George Ponderevo (talk) 15:16, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

If a headlight on my car is out of alignment, I don't duct-tape a flashlight to the fender and call it good. I fix the headlight's alignment. I am not conceding that infoboxes are broken, but if the consensus goes with you, the thing that must be fixed is the infobox.

Ok, to restate: There may be no perfect solution, but wrapping an infobox in {{hidden}} is a poor solution because it requires custom CSS, violates the tenant that templates hide the details of implementation from the editor, and separates infobox content from the infobox. These are all things that I've stated previously in this discussion.

Actually, I did address WP:MOSIM when I wrote: But if the infobox is collapsible as in Little Moreton Hall the "Avoid sandwiching ..." guideline is violated when the infobox is visible. A {{gallery}} in the SS Eastland article at the bottom of §The Eastland disaster will resolve that issue. That fix will work for Little Moreton Hall §History and fix the WP:IMAGELOCATION violation as well: Avoid placing images on the left at the start of any section or subsection, ...

So you think that images in infoboxes is silly. Claims made with out supporting evidence can be as easily dismissed.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:25, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I provided an example of where the constraint imposed by the infobox on the size of a lead image was clearly detrimental to the that article. And can we please stop using this word "silly" as a synonym for "anything I don't agree with"?

The solution to this problem is indeed to fix all the infoboxes, and to move the images out, but that's never going to happen, and equally clearly never going to get agreement on whether infoboxes are a good thing or a bad thing for certain categories of articles. So in the meantime collapsing the infoboxes as in Montacute Hall is the only practical alternative to this kind of interminable and ultimately unproductive discussion. George Ponderevo (talk) 21:49, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

If an image is constrained by the info box then perhaps that image isn't the correct image for that most important location in the article. Find a better image. I disagree with your assertion that the "only practical alternative" is this custom {{hidden}} template wrapper. Find a better image. As an experiment, I edited the infobox at Montacute House to include the lead image and set |image_size=300 (I also set |map_width=300). I could not see how, in doing so, the infobox "was clearly detrimental to the that article."

Sure, we can stop using the word "silly", but I must note that I have never used it as a 'synonym for anything "I don't agree with"'. I have used it once (now twice) in this whole discussion and when I did use it I was parroting your use of the word.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 01:43, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 1

To make this easier to navigate. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:20, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Masem, a major function of an infobox is to provide metadata. That metadata is emitted whether the box is collapsed or uncollapsed, but not if the box does not exist (or at least not yet - possible improvements might resolve this). In cases where a normal infobox is undesirable or contested, this solution allows that metadata to be emitted while respecting the needs of the article. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:54, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• I started the discussion at Talk:Montacute House#Infobox removal back in 2009 when an infobox which had existed in the article for over a year was removed. Just to reiterate a few of the points there... Discussion about the appearance being "messed up" by the infobox reflects a particular point of view. I am in favour of them and having watched many other users of wikipedia (mostly students) have noticed this is the first thing they look at - particularly when they are looking for a "quick fact". People use/read wikipedia in different ways, a 30 second, 3 minute and 30 minute version of information has been advocated as meeting the needs of different users (or the same user at different times) and therefore providing the information in different formats is helpful to them - why shouldn't we provide it? This may also relate to research on Generation X and Generation Y and the different ways in which they consume or use information. As there were strong objections to the infobox on Montacute House a compromise/consensus was reached to use the collapsed infobox, which existed without problem until last month, and I haven't seem any strong arguments against that consensus. My opinion is that we should include appropriate infoboxes where possible. If there are strong objections then the collapsed version provides the next best option. If this is best achieved by including 'collapsible collapsed' (or similar) in the syntax of the infobox rather than " some hack of div tags and html tables" then I don't see any problem with that (although the coding would be beyond me).— Rod ^talk 20:21, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Rod; he and I have both heavily edited Montacute House (and keep a close eye on it) the collapsed info-box was a compromise that suited us both. Until I mentioned it last nonth as an example of a reasonable compromise which caused Andy Mabbett to go rabid, there were no problems with it for years.  Giano  21:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

I invite you to strike your false allegation that I "went rabid". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oh dear, my English can be malapromatic at times and show limited vocabulary; what is is that you think I meant by rabid perhaps I have he wrong word?  Giano  13:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• Very interesting solution for pages were an infobox is not really wanted. However accessibility is a concern - makes us have to click on "show" to see the info. As a person with a disability i see this a yet another obstacle that impedes me from seeing all. I have to (with great effort) try and get my mouse pointer on that very small "show" tab just to derive serviceable information from the infobox. That said its better then no info at all in this format.Moxy (talk) 20:24, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I imagine there is probably a css or js solution to make collapsed infoboxes uncollapsed by default, but not make navboxes uncollapsed by default. and, at the same time, fix the print version. Frietjes (talk) 20:45, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
    • I have made a js solution, see #Collapsing most infoboxes using javascript. Frietjes (talk) 00:01, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Articles on musical subjects already have "hidden data" in the form of boxes to click on to hear an audio clip. Do you equally see that as some kind of additional obstacle Moxy? And in the specific examples that triggered this discussion (Montacute House and Little Moreton Hall) what "serviceable information" do you find in the infobox that's not already available in the lead? George Ponderevo (talk) 21:34, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes they are just as hard to access - the biggest obstacle I face on a daily biases is {{Navbox with collapsible groups}} sometimes I will have to click on 4 or 5 "shows" just to find one link. I have MS and my shaking is bad sometimes and makes it hard to stabilizes my mouse on the very very small "show" tabs. ... I also logout all the time when trying to press "my contributions" and "my watchlist" LOL. As for why dont I just read the text - Infoboxes have maps and main images I cant see unless I open the box.Moxy (talk) 01:18, 7 March 2013 (UTC) Moxy (talk) 01:13, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear that Moxy, and I can't even begin to imagine the problems you must face on a daily basis. There must surely be something better we can do though, such as giving you a bigger target to aim at in the collapsed infobox? George Ponderevo (talk) 01:51, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Not a big deal I just do "Ctrl +" to make the show tab big. As for the rest of my life I have a wonderful wife that is very good to me and a Son that is my doctor for the past 10 years. This is all a bit off topic and sorry that its gone on so long.... but others may find the "Ctrl +" option useful when encountering these boxes.Moxy (talk) 02:08, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• Ugly, just ugly. Not only how they all look – none look the same in a side-by-side comparison – but each of those {{hidden}} templates in the articles listed by Editor Andy Mabbett had to be individually crafted with CSS to get them to look as they do: ugly, just ugly. The purpose of a lot of Wikipedia's templates is to hide the details of implementation from the users and to present a uniform look-and-feel to the reader.

If we must to have collapsible info boxes, the collapse should be happening within the infobox. The lead image and its caption should be inside the infobox but not hidden when the infobox is collapsed.

And yeah, I'm in favor of non-collapsed infoboxes though I will admit that there are some that are a bit too cluttered. I am not in favor of wrapping infoboxes with {{hidden}} templates.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:53, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• If we could just put this discussion to bed than we could very easily come up with a solution that doesn't require any manual tweaking, but until it is I for one am disinclined to put any effort into such a solution. George Ponderevo (talk) 21:29, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Re Montacute House infobox - that's not a big infobox (nor cluttered either IMHO), this is a big infobox and on a Featured Article. If editors have problems with infobox style or layout that's a specific infobox problem not a generic problem with infoboxes. GraemeLeggett (talk) 21:04, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

That's another good example of where the infobox overwhelms the article, and at least a significant part of it ought to be collapsed by default. George Ponderevo (talk) 21:26, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• I prefer an open infobox to one that is collapsed, per Moxy, but I prefer a collapsed one to none at all. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:17, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
• I am definitely against hidden boxes. They require javascript. They also have accessibility problems. They also make it unclear what should be printed. If there is too much stuff then the article is too big and should be split. Articles being too big is a real problem whatever some people with fast connections say. Dmcq (talk) 22:42, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

  If you've disabled javascript then you simply see the uncollapsed infobox, so what's the problem? And to repeat myself, the infoboxes aren't being hidden, they're simply being collapsed. George Ponderevo (talk) 22:59, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

• I am definitely against hidden infoboxes - they exist to provide a basic overview of pertinent details about the article subject for those editors who are looking for specific information - but I would love to see collapsible sections within some of the larger and more detailed infobox templates. VanIsaac_{WS Vex}^contribs 23:21, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

  They're not hidden, they're collapsed. What's the difference in your mind between collapsible sections in some of the ridiculously detailed infoboxes and coillapsing the infobox itself? In the specific examples that initiated this discussion, what information do you feel was "hidden" from you by collapsing the infoboxes? George Ponderevo (talk) 23:33, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

To make this easier to navigate. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:20, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• (e/c * 2) Most of this problem has come about because (a) there is some kind of agreement (and I do not know whether it is any kind of official policy or not) that metadata should be "emitted" in some way; (b) we have an aggressive approach adopted to this by an enthusiast for metadata that has led to problems both in the past and currently, who, for reasons that are not explained, seems to act as if the only way metadata can be "emitted" is to place them in infoboxes (he is curiously silent when asked whether the *only* way metadata can be emitted is by placing them in infoboxes, though, in fact, the answer is "no"); (c) this then has the effect that the two are so firmly linked that if there is any kind of policy about metadata, then that policy drives an implicit policy about infoboxes. (d) This "enforcement of infoboxes by stealth" (for there is no other way to describe it, given the behaviour of some who aggressively plonk infobozes in articles where there is a history of extensive discussion leading to consensus, about their presence in those articles) causes drama, an antagonistic atmosphere, and other problems that, because of the way questions about metadata and infoboxes are answered, (or, in many cases, not answered), causes disruption. My attitude is that the editor responsible for this needs to back off a bit, and let people who have a more understanding and collaborative approach to editing wikipedia have a more prominent role. At the moment, infoboxes and metadata seem to be a "one man show", and that is therefore coloured by aggressive and uncollaborative behaviour on the part of the main editor involved. This editor has had a number of long-term bans from wikipedia, exactly for these reasons and is, arguably, still on "probation" for his problematic behaviour. You can see that I am not alone in this opinion, and ArbCom also agreed with these points in earlier incidents. You can follow the links and the pages that show, what action the community has taken against this editor in the past here. This discussion, initiated by that same editor, is just another incident involving the same issues, dragging in all kinds of editors who have views about infoboxes, solely because, at some point (though it is never made clear), there was a design decision to link metadata (that editor's particular little hobby-horse) with infoboxes. In fact, the whole drama should be defused by unlinking the two and not trying to enforce infoboxes on all articles "by stealth". Then the issue of "hidden infoboxes" (which really means "collapsed infoboxes") would be much defused. I speak as someone who is both in favour of metadata, and of infoboxes, but apparently who respects the views of other editors more than some in this debate.  DDStretch  (talk) 23:37, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Let me make it clear that I am in no way against infoboxes in general, but I am against their blanket application where they add very little if anything and impact an article's visual presentation, as in Montacute Hall, Little Moreton Hall, and the Pendle Museum of Speed. On the other hand I'm very much in favour of metadata, from which any number of potential infoboxes could be generated by whoever wanted to see them. What I'm very much against though is this dishonest argument that metadata is dependent on the presence of infoboxes, or that important information is somehow being hidden by collapsing an infobox. What we ought to be doing is to work on a standardised data dictionary, hopefully hosted by Wikidata, which could be used by the mythical visual editor and potentially infobox generators for those who wanted to see one, instead of all the hand-crafting of infoboxes that goes on now. And as I think I've said before, the metadata argument is essentially a dishonest one anyway, as there is no real sense in which the association of a label such as "governing body" with the value "National Trust" can be considered to be metadata. George Ponderevo (talk) 00:20, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Now you've enjoyed your rant, perhaps you'd like to address the issue at hand, about the visual display of infoboxes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
• I think this usage is acceptable, at least on a provisional basis. As I said sometime back when Andy Mabbett and Davenbelle/Jack Merridew/Br'er Rabbit were vigorously pushing infoboxes into FACs that lacked them, infoboxes as presently implemented mingle metadata with presentation. In order to make an infobox generate a more comprehensive set of metadata about an article, you are forced to present data in the lead of an article that may be confusing, marginally relevant, or unbalanced. Inevitably, this pits the people with an interest in metadata against the editors who are familiar with the subject matter in a given article and have formed judgements on its presentation. This is why infoboxes have been far more controversial than, say, the "persondata" template, which is pure metadata without any effect on presentation. As several people above have pointed out, and anyone with tuppence worth of knowledge about markup would tell you at once, the long-term solution is to separate data from presentation, so that the decision about which data to prominently display in a box, or whether to have one at all, can be made on a more individual basis. Choess (talk) 05:35, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Exactly. One could even imagine an option in preferences for whether or not to show infoboxes, the content of which came from Wikidata, not some manually coded infobox or other. Or even an option only to show automatically generated infoboxes, for those in a hurry or with short attention spans. George Ponderevo (talk) 07:00, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
    • You and other logged-in users already have the option to style infoboxes (class="infobox") to display:none in your User: stylesheet. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:42, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - MOS:COLLAPSE states "...boxes that toggle text display between hide and show should not conceal article content, including reference lists, image galleries, and image captions" but "Collapsible sections or cells may be used in tables that consolidate information covered in the main text, and in navboxes". Currently no mention of infoboxes.

I am active - if not an explicit member - of some WP projects that use large (by some people's standards) infoboxes. Should this discussion be publicized more? It think it would be inappropriate for me to mention it in those projects if it isn't as they are likely to be anti-collapsing and would skew the discussion. GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:51, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• An infobox is a "table that consolidate information covered in the main text" - In fact it's a brilliant description of an infobox. I think some people are forgetting that it's the article/text which is important not the infobox.  Giano  14:22, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• That depends what you're looking for. One of the reasons they're so wildly popular is that frequently our readers are only looking for particular snippets of information, presented in a consistent manner, that they'd rather not poke through the prose for. In any case, summaries of article contents are still integral parts of the articles. What we really want here is a straightforward technical solution which lets editors who dislike infoboxes hide them globally, easily, while not inconveniencing the rest of us. The current hackish solution employed on a handful of arts articles is not the right approach, and certainly shouldn't be rolled out any further. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 16:53, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

  We're not talking about hiding infoboxes, despite what Mabbett keeps claiming, we're talking about collapsing them. George Ponderevo (talk) 17:04, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Potato, potahto. Note that the text on the collapse link is labelled "hide". I'm interested in whatever solution works for the most parties here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 17:12, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

It's irrelevant what the text on the collapse link says, and it's easily changed if it bothers you. Its function is to collapse the infobox, agreed? George Ponderevo (talk) 18:41, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

That's precisely my point. It's silly getting into some nitpicking dispute over the difference between "hiding" and "collapsing" which only distracts from finding a real solution. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

It's not "nitpicking" or "silly" to insist on a proper use of terms. Rather, it's dishonest to misuse terms in an effort to win an argument. Collapsed =/= hidden. End of story. George Ponderevo (talk) 13:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Sigh. Feel free to read that sentence as beginning "What we really want here is a straightforward technical solution which lets editors who dislike infoboxes collapse them globally" if it upsets you so. It doesn't actually change anything in the meaning of the sentence, and I rather think you're imagining motives here if you believe that this was deliberate. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 14:52, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Of course it's deliberate, else Andy Mabbett wouldn't be edit warring over the title of this section, and encouraging others to do so as well. George Ponderevo (talk) 15:13, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not Andy Mabbett. Any lack of distinction made in my posts between "hiding" and "collapsing" is mine and mine alone. My personal opinion that the difference is academic. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 15:19, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

And my opinion is that it isn't, and the the word "hidden" was deliberately chosen to distort this discussion. Is your opinion in some way worth more than mine? You may if you wish attempt to argue that the contents of the infobox are hidden, but not that the infobox is hidden. George Ponderevo (talk) 17:22, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Whatever your opinion, the fact is that in the examples given above, the infobox is wrapped in another, collapsed container, which hides the infobox. The collapsed container can be seen, but not the infobox. The only exceptions are those infoboxes which have been moved to the foot of their article; which have not yet been discussed here. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:01, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Once again, why is my opinion less important than your opinion? And no matter how many times you repeat it, the infox is not hidden, it's collapsed. As I said just above, you may attempt to make an argument that the information contained within the infobox is hidden, but the infobox itself is patently not hidden, else you would be unable to see it to expand it. George Ponderevo (talk) 20:48, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Your opinion is less important than the facts. The fact is that no-one can see the infoboxes, because they are hidden inside collapsed wrappers. The wrappers can be seen and, once expanded, no longer hide the infoboxes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:37, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

As I've noted above, a simple CSS fix will do that for anyone who doesn't want to see infoboxes; I'm sure there are editors willing to help anyone who lacks the necessary know-how to apply it for themselves. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:57, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Your CSS kludge is unsatisfactory because it wouldn't allow the option of seeing the infobox, which is the point of collapsing it, not hiding it as you are proposing. George Ponderevo (talk) 17:02, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I really think Andy should stay out of this now [1] and is incapable of replying to reasoned argument.  Giano  17:16, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I have made a js solution, see #Collapsing most infoboxes using javascript. Frietjes (talk) 00:01, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• I parked the comment I was about to make in my temp file for 24 hours as I have no desire to be immoderate or to be savaged, I wish to diffuse this time wasting argument. Every warning bell rings and would advise every editor to steer clear, but as Wikipedia has a propensity to equate "he who shouteth loudest" with consensus, I will state my point of view. To many readers the Infobox is all that is important. Wikipedia is about delivering content to readers- not and never about rendering the page to match the settings of a preferred browser. The reader has a perfect right to decide which infomation he wishes his browser to display but that is his and his browsers personal issue. While this is going on there are GAs waiting to written- can we please direct all this surplus energy there.--ClemRutter (talk) 17:17, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I think that although infoboxes aren't explicitly named at MOS:COLLAPSE, that they are covered by it, as it's not for navigational purposes and the stuff being collapsed isn't always covered in the main text. Consequently, I think that infoboxes should not normally be collapsed (with a possible exception for an unusually long list of that fits the "tables that consolidate information covered in the main text" exception to MOS:COLLAPSE). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:01, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

What exactly should be in an infobox that should not be in the article?  Giano  20:10, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

For articles about people and places, which you mostly seem to edit, probably nothing. But look at the infoboxes in Mercury (element) and Influenza: almost none of that (and certainly none of the external links to databases) belongs in the body of the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:55, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

• Please read the thread. You are repeating my point.  Giano  08:04, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The appalling Template:Infobox World Heritage Site is notable for containing mostly repetitive information on the UNESCO bureaucratic procedures around awarding the status that certainly don't belong in the text of the article, and are very easily found in the relevant UNESCO page, which is always linked. This infobox is also remarkable for not containing most of the information a reader would actually want, such as the date, style and culture of monuments. Unfortunately it is very widely used. See Khajuraho Group of Monuments for an example. Johnbod (talk) 15:52, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

That is indeed a poor infobox; and I have previously supported your attempts to have it improved. However. none of the infoboxes on the articles under discussion use it, and one bad example is not a reason to dismiss all the good ones. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:22, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Nor would I suggest doing so, but it is a good example to answer the question that had been asked just above. Johnbod (talk) 20:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Someone else needs to undo Giano's dicking about with the subject of this section, which is misleading, mis-spelt, and breaks inbound links. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:07, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Infobox usage or non-usage, should be decided per article. GoodDay (talk) 15:04, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Collapsing most infoboxes using javascript

If anyone is interested, I wrote a javascript script that collapses most infoboxes by default (see User:Frietjes/collapse infoboxes.js), you can use it by adding the following line to your Special:MyPage/skin.js file

importScript('User:Frietjes/collapse infoboxes.js'); // [[User:Frietjes/collapse infoboxes.js]]

the code is basically the section for collapsing navboxes from MediaWiki:Common.js, but with two modifications (1) it adds it to the "infobox" class, rather than the "collapsible" class, and (2) it adds it to caption or the top row, depending on if the infobox has a caption. so far it seems to work with most infoboxes, but there probably are some exceptions. let me know if you find any problems or bugs. Frietjes (talk) 23:59, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Could we turn that on its head, and have a script for those who don't like collapsed infoxes to see the uncollapsed version by default? George Ponderevo (talk) 17:18, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

That's already the default across about 99.9999% of articles with infoboxes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:05, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

If that were true then you would not have brought your crusade here, and there would have been no point in Frietjes wasting time on her proposed compromise. I know from previous experience that asking you questions is a fruitless exercise, as you never answer them, but how many infoboxes would you estimate have the option of collapsing them? George Ponderevo (talk) 20:39, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

AFAIK, none; hence my comment above, which you wrongly - as any fool can tell - suggest is false. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:47, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Right, so clearly your statement above is at best misleading, if not downright false. George Ponderevo (talk) 20:50, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

My statement, as any fool can tell, is clear and correct. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:34, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

So, earlier today I was just "silly", but now I'm a "fool". I see. George Ponderevo (talk) 22:47, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Suggested closing

• This discussion is going nowhere. Andy Mabbit has now been banned twice, for a total of God knows how many years, because of his extremely zealous attachment to this subject. Nothing is going to come from further debate; I suggest we all stop engaging and leave the status quo as it is - which when all said and done works pretty well until Mabbit comes along and causes dissent. To summarise: most people agree that on scientific and statistical pages a fully displayed info-box can be useful; on pages concerned with history and the arts they are less useful. On such pages, if the principal editors feel an infobox is unnecesary, then leave it out; if they are divided then give the page a collapsed box and if they want an info box - then have an infobox. We don't all have to live by regimented, uniform rules.  Giano  22:16, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Editors agreeing sign below:

• Agree. I haven't been following the discussion, but I certainly agree with the passage "To summarise: most people agree that on scientific and statistical pages a fully displayed info-box can be useful; on pages concerned with history and the arts they are less useful." That's exactly the position stated again and again by the various mainline music projects. --Kleinzach 10:17, 9 March 2013 (UTC) P.S. 'Collapsing' boxes would be a useful option. In the past it wasn't available, hence we don't know how often it might be used. 'Collapsing' info (e.g. navigation boxes) is well-established as a publishing device on WP. --Kleinzach 15:08, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
• Agree. I think Giano's right. Here's a pretty good example of an ugly discussion.[2]. Dunno whether the author is still editing but haven't seen her around much since then. Truthkeeper (talk) 14:31, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
• Agree. Similar discussions to the one that Truthkeeper links to have played out over and over for some years now, and one thing from that specific discussion stands out: "In a compromise there is usually ground given by both sides in order to reach an agreement; not so much here .... When content creators cannot make their opinion known without being called 'blind' and 'obstinate', or accused of 'retarding article development', what point is there?" and as infoboxes get longer and longer and consequently more and more intrusive these arguments will only increase. "I don't like it" and "We've always done it this way" are not valid arguments against what seems to be to be the best compromise we're able to come up with now given the current state of the Mediawiki software and the resistance to any changes whatsoever. George Ponderevo (talk) 14:55, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
• Agree. Why normal people still have to point out the obv to the lunatic and paracetic likes of Andy Mabbit in 2013 is a sad indication of where the project is going. So much for the goal of editor retention, or do not feed the trolls. Oh wait, I forgot, he's connected to WMUK. Ceoil (talk) 15:45, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
• Agree minus the personalized spin, & somewhat minus the bit on what types of article they suit, which isn't needed. But yes, leave it as an option that's useful in some cases. Johnbod (talk) 17:22, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

  In my experience it is very much about personalities, and the zealot approach of the likes of Mabbet and Jack, both of whom are known to focus and target certain editors across a wide variety of their articles after being stood up to. And they goad and bait, and a simple google search will tell you why. TK's link above is the tip of the iceberg. Ceoil (talk) 20:34, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Agree. Collapsing is an option that could often work as a compromise. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:13, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Editors disagreeing sign below:

• I haven't seen any evidence at all that the community supports collapsed infoboxes, regardless of the state of consensus (for, against, or non-existent) at the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:26, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
• I don't like hiding and collapsing. I am an editor who wants open infoboxes, but I don't even get them for my "own" articles, see Peter Planyavsky. Compare the open one suggested on the talk to the collapsed one now in the article, read the discussion, calculate the waste of time of several people. The above discussion showed how people who don't like infoboxes can achieve not to see them. Let's keep it simple, infobox yes or no, without hiding and collapsing, which requires a different style of coding. I believe that it is better for the readers, who are (or should be) more important than the authors, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:26, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
• I don't think the summary is accurate with regard to collapsing infoboxes. 16:07, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
• Getting tired of personal preferences over user accessibility. Time the community steps in and makes user accessibility the primary concern.Moxy (talk) 17:29, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Editors commenting sign below:

• Comment – I would agree to the above statement if personal references were removed. Boghog (talk) 22:24, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

• Well I'm afraid that's not possible. For years now. Andy Mabbit has been wandering onto pages (where he's never been seen before) and causing trouble over info-boxes. This has led to him being banned twice for a year [3] and blocked even more times; and I, for one, am sick of it. So let's have an end to it. No one wants to abolish info-boxes, just accept that they are not right for every single page.  Giano  10:22, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• You are combining two issues that really need to be separated. The first is whether there are instances where collapsing infoboxes is appropriate. In general, I think infoboxes should not be collapsed but may be appropriate in rare situations where consensus otherwise cannot be reached. The second is alleged misdeeds by an editor and this is the wrong forum to bring up this issue. I cannot support any statement that contains personal attacks. Boghog (talk) 13:26, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

The truth cannot be a personal attack. Secondly, this is exactly the correct forum.  Giano  13:35, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Define truth. "Mabbit comes along and causes dissent" seems not to be true for his factual question initiating this discussion: should hidden/collapsed infoboxes be acceptable. - That people disagree on the answer is not dissent "caused" by Andy. My answer is above: better not accept hiding and collapsing, be open, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:49, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

It's been going on for years Gerda, I suggest you start on this link [4]. Nothing fruitful can come of this debate while Andy Mabbit is allowed to take part. Personally, I don't think the community will ever unite behind one blanket policy for or against an infobox; so we might just as well leave things as they are, which works fairly well until Mabbit arrives on the scene.  Giano  14:25, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you will be disappointed but I am not interested the slightest little bit in that past. I raised the flag for "Letting go of the past" on my talk for reasons. - During my time (starting 2009), I observed Andy and (later) Br'er trying to add an infobox to George Solti (an article that had an infobox until 2007). The timing was bad, but the language polite and convincing (to me). I don't see what you see. Lets look at the facts at hand.

ps: Giano, I admire the construction "Mabbit", even better than Br'er Rabbi ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:17, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - Honestly, I don't care about pages I have nothing to do with. I mainly care about pages relating to transportation (bridges, tunnels, roads, trains, etc.). Those can use infoboxes pretty nicely, as they deal with flat facts: dates, dimensions, who, what, when, where. There's not much dissension there. - Denimadept (talk) 00:07, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• I completely agree with you. The motion does too: "scientific and statistical pages a fully displayed info-box can be useful."  Giano  10:35, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I will not agree or disagree with the Suggested closing statement. My reasons are: first, I have no personal knowledge of Editor Andy Mabbett's alleged wrongdoing; second: I do not accept the assertion that nothing will result from further discussion – if we do not talk with those with whom we disagree, then surely nothing will happen. —Trappist the monk (talk) 01:58, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Trappist the monk: There are archives and archives and archives of past discussions on this subject. Just take one individual project like Composers, and see [[5]]. After reading the discussions for a few hours, it's possible that you may change your mind! These debates have been damaging to encyclopaedia building: most (Composers Project) contributing editors simply got fed up, gave up and left. Kleinzach 15:54, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

It is the oddest thing that some projects like (Composers Project) dont let there own editors develop articles as they wish - its a big reason people leave the project(s) or dont join in the first place. Editors join projects to help not to be told what they can and cant do when they in good faith develop articles. Most large topic projects have a collaborative feel to them - not a dictatorial feel. Moxy (talk) 18:13, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Moxy, I note you have few enough edits in this area, this "oddest thing", do you know the background and the farce that lead to it at all? Ceoil (talk) 19:29, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

You are correct I do not remove or place infoboxs in articles. However my experience with this topic is vast and long standing - in fact never seen you before at any debate on the topic. I have spend countless hours explaining the situation to the poor editors that encounter hostility when editing pages related to the aforementioned projects.Moxy (talk) 19:38, 9 March 2013 (UTC)]

How very self-satified and at the same time obtuse. You know a lot about boxes but not so much about specific content or the context where they are slapped. And hoitly dismiss incumbants; look where you are now....using smug phrasing like "aforementioned". Ceoil (talk) 19:50, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

This is the type of problem I have to deal when our new editors run into this problem topic. Please explain to me and all the others here why your insulting me. One would think that by now you should have a clear understanding of what our basic conduct expectations are here.Moxy (talk) 20:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Really? so we can discuss Ceoil's history, but not Andy Mabbit's? The truth of the matter here is that the infobox crew lead by Andy Mabbit have been bullying editors for years. Well now it's going to stop. People are sick of being pushed about on this subject. I had never heard of Mabbit until he arrived on a page I edited and presumed to call the shots; now we shall sort this matter - fairly.  Giano  20:21, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Well said Giano. Lets remember who are the antagonists here, that literally go looking for a fight. Moxy, a cheap deflectionm like that...ho hum. You are a disgrace to your species, whatever it is. Ceoil (talk) 20:27, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Ceoil could pls try to stay level headed and communicate on a mature level. To Giano - Never said anything about Andy Mabbit's - if you guy want talk about him do so. What I am talking about is the isolation of the projects because of this long standing debate. I am sure you concur its a problem right? The projects do great work, but this one problem has caused so much torment for all, that one would think all would be working towards a solution - not blaming or insulting individual people . Moxy (talk) 20:38, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Moxy, your the one raising strawmen, and Ive already made the point that you dimissed the entire classical music community in an offhand way, with out adressing my inquiry as to if you knew the background. Ceoil (talk) 20:43, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Reading someone else's discussions with Editor Andy Mabbett doesn't constitute personal knowledge on my part since I was not a participant in those discussions. Even were I to read those discussions, past, present, future behavior of an editor isn't germane to the issue at hand. We are here to discuss hiding / collapsing infoboxes.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 17:56, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - The wording of the closing statement is so flawed to render it useless. Firstly personal comments must be removed. That leaves us with the assertion that: To summarise: most people agree that on scientific and statistical pages a fully displayed info-box can be useful; on pages concerned with history and the arts they are less useful. This is a POV not supported by research.

Then follows the proposal: On such pages, if the principal editors feel an infobox is unnecesary, then leave it out; if they are divided then give the page a collapsed box and if they want an info box - then have an infobox. This does not allow comment on the status quo : wherever possible an article should have a visible infobox, or the contrary option of wherever editors are divided the default is to provide a visible infobox.--ClemRutter (talk) 03:04, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Let me see if I've understood. Whenever editors are divided on the utility of an infobox then the default is to provide a visible infobox? The same as if they weren't divided? What's the point in anyone ever disagreeing then? George Ponderevo (talk) 04:56, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

If the disagreement hinges on the general merits of the infobox system, as it usually does, then local disagreement does not override wider consensus. Exactly the same thing would apply if a plurality of editors developing a particular article decided amongst themselves that the article text should be in pink Comic Sans. That a small core of editors affiliated with particular WikiProjects (mostly classical music and opera, along with stately homes; I feel that defining this as "history and the arts" overreaches somewhat) feel very strongly about pink Comic Sans has led to quite a bit of drama, but it's an an abberation rather than a settled point of consensus. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:42, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

False premise, false premise. As an editor who has both created infoboxes (mainly for buildings), and argued for removing them (mainly from biographies), I've never seen the "general merits of the infobox system" as the subject of any discussion I've participated in. --Kleinzach 16:02, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I also fail to see the purpose of the suggested closing from the text. Is it intended to reach agreement that it is - on occasions - acceptable to wrap an infobox in the collapse template to put its contents out of view? And I agree that the personal comments are not acceptable. GraemeLeggett (talk) 08:05, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. Fundamentally, I think that the whole idea of infoboxes needs to be rethought, as duplicating data is never a good idea, and the text and the infobox are always going to be susceptible to drifting apart. I came across one example just a few minutes ago at Garth Pier. The text says that the optional entry fee is 25p, but the infobox says it's 30p. Which is right? I've got no idea, but what I do know is that expecting editors to update information in two separate places is not a good idea. Maybe in the fullness of time Wikidata will be able to help, but in the meantime we have to do the best we can, which is not to keep tramping down this tired old path of "infoboxes were good enough for my grandad, so they're good enough for me". George Ponderevo (talk) 16:12, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

  The drift between the body and the infobox is not unique. We regularly see drift between the body of an article and the lead. By your logic, we should abolish all the introductions, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:43, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

  I don't recall suggesting that it was unique, simply that the more data is duplicated the more likely it is that it will drift. And as it appears that your mind is closed to the idea of any possible improvement to the ante-deluvian software that powers this site i really don't see what logic has to do with anything, particularly when misappropriated in such a ridiculous reductio ad absurdum. George Ponderevo (talk) 17:00, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

  Remember (UK readers) that the HofCommons question time Wikiscandal re Titian with Cameron & Gordon Brown & respective party lackeys was all caused by different info in the main text and infobox. And guess which had the correct info? Johnbod (talk) 17:26, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

  Id say now that Mabbet and his ilk could care less about the integrity of actual facts and you know, info and so forth, and god help any lonely incumbant editor that gets in his way (has happened to me several times). Jack and Rexx should hold up their hands here too. Long as the articles emmitting meta data, its all good. SPAs by any other definition. Ceoil (talk) 18:04, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Minority official languages

Please give your comment on following case of infoboxes of settlements in Croatia. There is an long-term conflict about which information should be included in line official name. Whether it is all names that are official according to reliable and official sources (2 or 3 names), or we need to make our own decision to use only one name and declare other official languages (if they are languages ​​of ethnic minorities in Croatia) to be unnecessary even when some minority group make up majority in local community and use two official languages based on law. We had such debate here Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Croatia#Minority languages where community agreed on usage of minority names in infoboxes and user which for a long time remove my referenced edits was blocked temporarily. Unfortunately, now he again delete minority official languages from infoboxes and also remove without discussion line official languages. His edits are not considered to be vandalism, but those edits are POV-pushing and disruptive. For this reason, based on recommendation of member of WP Croatia I turn to you if you can confirm that all official languages are necessary or unnecessary for reader equally and that line official languages also is not unnecessary. Please give your opinion.--MirkoS18 (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2013 (UTC)